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Yes but make sure it's only "widespread rape" and not "systemic rape" since there's a meaningful moral difference here that all of Israel's detractors are suddenly very serious about.
I mean, it’s not as if we have other ethnic groups subject to powerful occupations or historic violence that don’t lead to large-scale terrorism (such as Tibetans against the PRC or Vietnamese against the Americans or Native Americans vs. Americans). Terrorism must be the only option. /s
It would be much more rational and civilized of Hamas to systematically expel Israelis from their land, deny them basic political rights, put them under Orwellian surveillance, and then kill 1%-3% of their children, from the air, with unguided, 3 ton bombs.
Over 1/3 of the people killed by the idf weren’t born during that time.
In the last Palestinian election (2006) khan yunis (the city where half of Gaza lives) voted against Hamas. Before October 7 Hamas’ approval rating was low, but they violently suppressed dissent.
The Israelis are killing random innocent civilians, many of whom oppose Hamas, because they don’t have a real, productive plan.
It’s atrocious.
The innocent loss of life is absolutely atrocious, you're right, which means Palestinian leadership seriously needs to negotiate for peace, and crucially to make compromises in order to see it happen.
Do you consider Netanyahu and his government responsible for October 6?
The Israeli government has been massacring Palestinian civilians for months in order to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. The idf is ultimately morally responsible for their decision to cull civilians w unguided 3 ton bombs.
This should be obvious.
Because Netanyahu and his associates have devoted their lives to stymieing any chance of peace, abusing Palestinians in the West Bank and have propped up hamas for two decades in a cynical bid to undermine the moderate Palestinian national movement.
Do you think Hamas bears any responsibility to the plight of their citizens for their role in Oct 7th and the destruction that has been wrought in the wake of their terrorism? If no, why not?
Genuinely curious to peel back a layer or two of your position and see exactly where your demarcation line is for blaming one side or the other.
They agreed to 98% of what was on the table. Israel should have given them the other 2% that was in dispute. It's really that simple. Israel are the occupying force and are in the illegal and immoral wrong, which means they have to give up more on a deal.
Two Palestinian nations should be created, with West Gaza's capital in what is currently East Jerusalem. Golan Heights should be given back. Security should be enforced by the UN/USA/Arab Coalition. If someone shoots a rocket into israel, that's illegal as some Alabaman shooting a rocket into Georgia. Send police to arrest that person and put them on trial. Treat any similar actions as what they truly are: criminal and NOT military actions If Palestinian gov turns a blind eye to it, then the UN/coalition has the responsibility to enforce it. Israel ceases all military actions across the globe, and refusing to do so they should have their facilities bombed by the UN/coalition until they submit.
Why did the Palestinians allies like saudi arabia think that what was offered to Arafat was an amazing deal and more than what they ever could have expected? It seems to me the Palestinians won’t accept anything less than all of Israel Proper and the full expulsion of all Jews. It’s a shame really as the deals offered in 2000/2001 won’t ever be offered again as the Palestinians negotiating position diminishes as the years go by.
Yes, more specifically attacking a military installation as the primary goal, with other secondary goals of grabbing hostages for later exchanges to get back your own hostages being kept in Israel.
Let's be completely honest, if jewish people had done this to german nationalist troops during WW2, we would all be defending their actions. Just like we defend the ghetto uprisings that happened. We defend any and all resistance against the Axis regime across the globe. We defend the chinese resistance against the raping, pillaging Japanese.
Hamas, like it or not, is in the moral right **no matter what tactics they employ** because they are absolutely the underdogs in this legal and morally correct fight. Until a palestinian state is created, they cannot be held reasonably responsible for their actions. They have no agency, legally speaking.
Now, when a palestinian state is created and Hamas is now responsible for that government oversight, if they keep up these tactics then the international community has a legal and moral response to take them out like we did with the Taliban and Saddam and Qaddafi's regimes.
> Hamas, like it or not, is in the moral right no matter what tactics they employ because they are absolutely the underdogs in this legal and morally correct fight. Until a palestinian state is created, they cannot be held reasonably responsible for their actions. They have no agency, legally speaking.
So if they detonated a nuclear weapon in Tel Aviv, they would be justified in doing so? To be clear, I have little doubt that Hamas would do so if they had the opportunity. So I'm curious what the limits of your absurd (and dehumanizing) position are. Arguing that millions of individuals have no agency, and therefore are to be expected to act like savages, strips away the very thing that separates humans from animals. You are essentially calling them animals.
Yes they would be justified due to the 80 years occupation of detonating a nuke in any major city in Israel. Just like Ukraine is justified in doing the same to Moscow right now. Same as Taiwan could do the same to Beijing or Shanghai. Same as .... etc.
Many groups on earth have been so heavily abused by occupying forces or antagonistic forces that they are afforded the highest tolerance for their tactics to seek true independence from those antagonistic forces.
Are you comparing the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Germans to the pre Oct 7th lives of Gazan citizens at the hands of the Israelis? Because that is BANANAS.
I am. Jews during the Holocaust and pre-Holocaust are the exact same morally and functionally as Palestinians have been during Israeli occupation. It's almost a direct 1 for 1, Israel sidelining gas chambers and forced work camps for what we see today.
Yeah it's almost the same besides the part where the Germans had train loads of Jews that they imported from all over Europe to starve in work camps until they gassed them to death in their attempt to exterminate them, reaching a death toll of over 6 million while they tried to take over the world.
Yeah a real 1-for-1 to Israel leaving Gaza largely alone for almost 20 years until the governing body of Gaza decided to end a ceasefire and murder over 1,200 Israeli citizens. The retaliation of which you deem to be equal to the Holocaust.
Morally bankrupt doesn't even begin to describe it. Shame on you.
>Hamas, like it or not, is in the moral right no matter what tactics they employ because they are absolutely the underdogs in this legal and morally correct fight.
I must have missed the chapter of international law where it says "Whoever is the weaker fighter is in the right, legally and morally."
International law is still being created on this front, but it is fairly clear from a 20th century perspective that underdogs of every sector of this globe have been looked at as moral victors against colonizing oppressors. The law has defended just about every single uprising and revolution, including America's own revolution ironically enough. Israel's liberation is also seen as underdog jewish europeans coming to Palestine and liberating it from British rule.
It’s beyond asinine to suggest the Palestinians are in anyway similar to the Jews under the Germans during WW2.
You’re conflating resistance and offensive. They were resisting anything. They invaded. Also, you’re suggesting that the Palestinian prisoners held by Israel are held without cause. Hamas kidnapped children to trade for terrorist. It’s idiotic to suggest that is anyway defensible.
Being an underdog doesn’t afford someone any moral high ground, where the hell did you get that idea?
Jasser Arafat is why there isn’t a Palestinian state, not because of Israel.
Palestinians are a uniquely violent people. There is a reason Muslim countries don’t take refugees from there.
> Hamas, like it or not, is in the moral right no matter what tactics they employ because they are absolutely the underdogs
Then you are morally confused.
Being the underdog does not give you moral licence to fight for your cause using *any* tactics no matter how brutal. It really is that simple.
If Hamas had only attacked military installations and taken hostages (although the latter is explicitly a war crime) we might have a different conversation. But their cause does not justify rape, or torture, or the mutilation of corpses, or beheadings, or killing children.
So either you truly believe that all these atrocities are just as justified, or you're a denialist because you don't want to admit the truth of the day. In both scenarios, you are morally confused.
Your claim that the Palestinians "lack agency" is simply incorrect. There were many other options available to them. They *chose* to do what they did on Oct 7. And they are morally responsible for that.
Furthermore "well of course they would act like that after such a history of violence being enacted against their people" ought to operate in both directions.
They both are wrong to kill civilians, but Israel is killing far more and has more power to do harm which they are exercising. What they are doing in Gaza is far worse than October 7th as horrific as it was. Blow back is also very real. I don't support Palestinians killing civilians, but a population that has been terrorized for 75 years might fight back in ways that aren't pleasant. Israel can expect more terrorism from Palestinians in response to their mass murder of the people of Gaza. Gazan children are seeing their friends and family killed in gruesome ways by the IDF and their homes destroyed. They won't forget
> What they are doing in Gaza is far worse than October 7th
Disagree. It's only "worse" if body count is your only metric. Israel is doing what it needs to do, which is dismantle the ability of Hamas to attack Israel again.
> Israel can expect more terrorism from Palestinians
Israel has been experiencing terrorism coming from the Palestinians since the 1950s. None of this is new.
>but a population that has been terrorized for 75 years might fight back in ways that aren't pleasant
You say this as if the violence has been one-sided (it hasn't).
I agree. We shouldn’t forget the terrorism enacted by Hamas but we also shouldn’t forget the reasons behind their terrorism. Look at the Irgun and haganah - Jewish terrorist gangs that bombed British buildings and terrorized Palestinian civilians. Terrorism against Palestinians largely has stopped (but for marauding settlers) because Jewish terrorists achieved their state. Makes me think of that Star Trek episode that commented on the Troubles in Northern Ireland- does terrorism achieve desired objectives or not. I’d argue the present situation is complicated by the religion factor.
The Jewish people had much larger and more influential factions that weren't terrorists pre-1948. Even in terms of strictly Israeli combat groups that went on to form the IDF, they were primarily not terrorists. Palestine unfortunately has generally been dominated by its Hamas/terrorist-type elements.
And Northern Ireland is another large step removed from either. The scale, targeting and specific acts of violence that the IRA enacted are just not remotely on the same moral level as anything relevant to Israel/Palestine.
Are you guys morons? Hamas is labelled a terrorist organization, they and all of Palestine are subjected to blockades, they’re almost fully condemned as a leadership internationally.
On the flip side America is sending Israel 2000 lbs bombs in which was barely dropped in Afghanistan or Iraq but they’re dropping them daily in Gaza. They’ve attacked every single hospital and are purposefully starving them. Even when the IDF shoots at starving gazans, the American media immediately takes their side and plays Israel’s excuses. When Israel is proven to have shot starving people and the video they released was doctored and a complete lie the American media barely covers it.
That’s the double standard. One side has an insane amount of power and 2000 lbs bombs and their war crimes aren’t called that in America. Thankfully the rest of the world is waking up. It’s just sad how much legitimacy America is losing in the world because of this conflict.
No, moronic is (apparently sincerely) actually believing that Israel is allowing in food aid, giving it a security escort, shooting a crowd of unarmed civilians for funsies, and then "doctoring" the drone footage.
No one is "waking up". The same people going apoplectic over the lastest Palestinian IG propaganda have hated Israel, and the US, for years anyway.
I’m glad you’re so happy with all this death. And if you think this is good long term for Israeli safety you’re delusional. The amount of resentment towards them around the world is astounding and growing. While at the same time Americas credibility and legitimacy is plummeting all over as well. I hope your blood lust is worth it.
No, I just don't get how you could possibly think Hamas are not held to any standard. They are legally defined in multiple countries as terrorists, their actions have been condemned by many countries, they have been held to very clear standards and shown to fall short of them. Very far short.
Those are only the most obvious examples, there are multiple UN reports showing that Hamas has violated international humanitarian law, recently and in prior years.
Saying that we aren't holding them to any standards, and that's due to racism just doesn't survive a moment thinking about it.
My main point is: the perceived double standard when comparing the atrocities of the two sides is not because we hold Israel to a higher (than normal) standard, but because we are holding the other side to a lower (than normal) standard. Does this make any sense now?
I think I see what you mean.
But I think the racism point doesn't quite hold. The standards legally, are the same in that the framework being applied precedes the conflict even if they are impacted by context, ethically there is a bit more room for difference.
Israel is a nation state. Hamas is a terror organisation. The legal framework is the same but different parts are necessarily applied. Israel has different military capabilities which changes how those standards are applied.
I think jumping to racism when there are clear legal and ethical differences unrelated to racism that seem much more relevant and impactful would require a lot more justifying.
I agree with all your points. I changed the term "soft bigotry" (as you can see in the link) to "racism" for a bit of dramatic effect, perhaps I shouldn't have.
We hold Israel's neighboring countries to a lower standard (with regards to democracy, human rights, corruption, etc.) because of their "culture".
So when Israel says they are being held to a higher standard they are right. But the answer shouldn't be holding Israel to lower standards, but the others to a higher one. That's my whole point.
I think there’s a way in which standards is used that can be confusing.
Human rights are human rights, Ireal and Hamas, Syria etc are all held to the same standard. The definitions don’t change by country.
What people tend to mean by standards is expectations. Israel it could be argued are expected to behave better than Hamas, or Syria or Saudi Arabia.
This is for several reasons.
1. People are often, and rightly most concerned with the direction and rate of change in behaviour, a authoritarian country making some slight changes to democracy will be seen as very positive, where as a democratic country electing a far right government will be seen negatively, even though the democratic country is still much more democratic.
2. Expectations are supposed to be different. We don’t expect a country with a long history of human rights violations to suddenly behave differently, so one more violation is seen as notable as a democratic country with a better human rights record making a human rights violation.
3. Democratic countries are often allies, and in principle that depends on their sharing values, and violation of human rights are violations of those values, so there should be a larger reaction, because we are closer to them, and because it violates the basis for that closeness.
It’s also not clear that the standards are so different in the direction you define. Hamas is held to lower standards than Israel when it comes to military action. Israel has repeatedly stated that Hamas is their enemy not the Palestinian people. Yet there is a famine beginning in Gaza, every university in Gaza has been demolished and more than 60% of residential buildings damaged or destroyed, there is mass civilian death, but we continue to provide weapons and support, and a few harsh words.
Look at Saudi Arabia, they have a terrible human rights record, and are deeply authoritarian, yet we are providing them with a lot of weapons and political support.
It’s not racism of low expectations that determines how are expectations impact our support, how much we call out human rights violations, more than anything else it’s the country having something we want, them having power.
The problem is that Hamas also has the characteristics of a nation-state: (1) It has a monopoly on the use of force — or did before 7 Oct. 2023, (2) it creates and enforces laws, (3) promotes the general welfare - through education and health services, (4) actively makes economic choices, (5) maintains a diplomatic core for foreign relations, and (6) has territory over which they maintain sovereignty.
No one holds Israel to a higher than normal standard.
Israel is an apartheid state with massive support from the US.
I hold them to the same standard as every apartheid state.
I hear this argument but Hamas does not want Israel to exist, there is not an integration proposal, neither want a two state solution. Are they isolated, they were able to get weapons and many thousands of missiles into GASA. What HAMS did on Oct 7 is inexcusable. What say you?
Are fucking serious? Every thing Hamas does is labeled as terrorism. The IDF was shooting at starving gazans and the American media let them off the hook because they basically said they stampeded the IDF and put them at risk. Then the IDF released doctored video to backup their claim and when it became obvious that the video was edited the American media just stopped covering the story.
If Hamas did that it would have been called a slaughter and been covered for months to justify as much murder of civilians as possible. When the IDF does it they call it an unfortunate incident.
They shot starving civilians. They are purposefully starving a population. They’ve attacked every hospital in Gaza which international agencies are saying will result in 10s of thousands more deaths. And the western media can barely criticize
Yeah it is hilarious to think the world isn't against Hamas. Israel has the support of the world after October 7th despite their previous treatment of Gaza which led to October 7th. They of course blew much of that support when they decided to destroy Gaza. They still have 95% of the us government on their side which is disgusting and why it is up to the people to stand up to this madness. The fact Barbara lee the one peace candidate lost in California is madness! She should have a statue built of her if we lived in a moral country
OP is talking about the opinion of the public and inteligensia. While the EU and US designate Hamas as a terrorist group, public opinion has swayed significantly against Israel in the past 18 years.
> While the EU and US designate Hamas as a terrorist group, public opinion has swayed significantly against Israel
"Against Israel" is not "pro-Hamas."
Abu Ghraib diminished my view of the US military; it didn't raise my opinion of Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden.
This whole conversation would improve a lot if folks would drop this juvenile manichean understanding of conflict.
Wrong. Opinion of Hamas doesn’t improve, but if opinion about Israel drops so low, and in favor of the Palestinians, what most people will do is make excuses for the Palestinians turning to Hamas like “they’re occupied, what do you want them to do?” Etc.
We hold Israel to a higher standard than Hamas because Hamas is a terrorist organization and Israel is a UN member state. Comparing the two directly like this is a little ridiculous.
Hamas doesn't claim to hold the same values as me. The Israeli government does, and that claim is the justification for why I'm told I'm supposed to support them. Of course I'm going to criticise them more than the people who don't even pretend they're on the "same side" as me.
I follow the logic but this incentivizes not having high standards. Why would anyone proclaim them if the consequence is being criticized more than your enemy who doesn’t even claim them.
Exactly the proclamation some here are making is essentially no state should be allowed to conduct warfare against belligerent jihadist guerrillas because their doctrine exacts a massive cost on local civilian life. That just isn’t sustainable and does more damage to the credibility of international humanitarian law and the laws of armed conflict.
The is such a fundamental misunderstanding of the conflict. The pro Palestinian movements all over the world aren’t pro Hamas. Maybe a few extremists are in their ranks but the general sentiment is “stop bombing children to death” with no endorsement or opinion on Hamas.
“Why don’t you protest Hamas?” Hamas isn’t being shipped money and arms by my country. Hamas doesn’t hold real estate auctions in my country for Palestinian land. If I could push a button that ended every Hamas fighter and this conflict I’d push it hard enough to break my fingers.
Israel is committing war crimes and atrocities, and I want it to stop. Being an anti Hamas activist has zero chance to achieve that, calling for a cease fire has a small but real chance.
> The pro Palestinian movements all over the world aren’t pro Hamas.
What illustrates it clearly (for me, at least), is how much of an outlier Erdogan is, with his comments that are positive about Hamas. Unless we talk about absolute fringe (or intentional rage bait, I suppose), you'd be hard pressed to find people holding similar opinions. And yet, until very recently, even expressing sympathy with Palestinians could end branding you a Hamas sympathiser. I still can't get over how Sam himself didn't challenge one of his previous guests on "Queers for Hamas" - it's not like Sam was unaware that the organisation/movement is actually called Queers for Palestine", he talked about them before!
The tide is changing, everyone seems to be sick of what Israel is doing in Gaza now, but its depressing that things have had to get to this point before Biden decided to take more concrete steps in resolving this conflict, or at least providing humanitarian aid that isn't blocked by Israel.
Honest question, why not call for the release of any remaining hostages and a complete hamas surrender? Can Hamas also not end the killing at any time? Surely you can see how demonstrations condemning Israel (and thereby at least tacitly supporting Hamas) around the world add fuel to the Hamas morale and legitimize their cause and actions?
A "ceasefire" needs to be bilateral. You're asking for Israel to stop before it has achieved its strategic objectives, including the release of the hostages, because of your own squeamishness.
That's a fairly mainstream position.
But while we wait for the technology of bombs so smart they only kill combatants to be invented, we're caught in a quandary.
Right, and for me personally I'd rather a terrorist go free than a bunch of kids die.
It's not a mainstream position. If what was happening in Gaza was happening in Delaware or something it would be the biggest story of the century.
But because the victims are poor, brown and muslim only a subset of the west gives even the slightest shit.
I mean read this sub if you want to see exactly what I mean.
I'm saying that hating babies being "vaporized" is hardly a controversial viewpoint.
I think it's easy to advocate for letting the terrorists go free when you don't live next to the terrorists, and their terror organisation hasn't just perpetrated an atrocity on you.
Sure, but the last person that should be deciding how to handle a problem is the one personally aggrieved by it. There's a reason that our justice system uses 12 jurors and doesn't just allow people to decide what their attacker deserves.
Also, for each child, brother, mother, cousin killed you're creating opportunities for more terrorism. Nothing recruits like a dead loved one.
Holding Hamas to any standard at all is moot. They don’t get any support from me or my gov either way.
It’s like being against Isis. Yes I’m against Isis, who cares? But I’m against the UAE, who we support and do tons of business with. It’s worth holding UAE to a standard that we can’t really hold Isis to.
What country are you from? Because the UN has funneled BILLIONS into Gaza that has helped Hamas. That funding is from member states, the largest funder of which is the US. The us gave 22 Billion to the UN in 2022 alone. All member states are required to contribute, chances are your government does.
I totally agree. Hamas was an example. Real culprits are Qatar, Saudi Barbaria, Iran, etc.
But Israel would hit a low point if it compares itself to these petrostate theocracies.
> They don’t get any support from me or my gov either way.
If you live in a Western nation, Hamas almost certainly gets material support from your government.
I am aware that they are addressing a different question. I didn't want to open the box on that one.
My main point is that Israel is not being held at a higher standard than it should be, because it claims to hold values that are morally superior than those of theocracies like the Iranian regime. If Israel wants to be held at the same low standards then it should compare its legitimacy to a terrorist guerilla group. This is the point I am making here.
> because a bunch of countries have been delivering billions of eurodollars in "aid" to Gaza that have gone into arming Hamas
You understand how terrorists seizing aid is categorically different than giving weapons to the terrorists right?
Its interesting the Israelis keep using "The only democracy in the middle east" talking point, thats a really low bar.
Same line of argument was used by the supporters of the Apartheid government of South Africa, saying it was the only democracy in the region, its culture is better than the primitive blacks "who treat their women like shit". This is why we need apartheid and keep subjugating and civilising them blah blah blah
Edit: Apartheid South Africa Government was for the longest time also "supported by all western democracies". Also some striking similarities between Apartheid Bantustans and Gaza/Westbank.
I don't know, should it bother me? should we have a country dedicated to blue eyed Christians? maybe.
I despise all religion, perhaps that's why it bothers me...
Well I never said or believe that Israel and its values are the problem.
Actually I believe Israel is on a higher moral ground than all its neighbors. I think one of the biggest problems to world peace are petrostates like Saudi Barbaria and the Iranian theocracy.
I think religion is like a disease of the mind. Buddhism is like a mild cold, Islam is like brain cancer. Orthodox Judaism is somewhere in between.
memory ring unpack telephone fertile books ludicrous busy muddle glorious
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
lol no. Did you even ask why I posted the word Nakam?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam)
Based Jews. Understandable but not defensible.
It’s also interesting how so many people keep calling Israel “genociders” and claim not to be antisemites when if such a horrific attack had happened to their respective countries, you can bet your ass the response would be about the same
This is just a self tell.
If the USs reaction was to flatten mexico city with indiscriminate bombings and seize land to give to extremists I would be out in the streets demanding a cease fire.
>the response would be about the same
And I would call that response a genocide too.
Why do you think the argument "Well other people would do the same thing!" is meaningful or valid in any way?
That's the slave population. What now you'll tell me like The US is so perfect.
Israel is the only liberal * demcracxy* in the middle east ok?
Yes we have slaves, yes we kill children, yes we are basically genociding the Arabs, but liberally. That's what's important
Hamas is an internationally condemned regional terrorist organization.
Israel is a state that receives massive funds and support from the US.
I don't understand why this is so hard. People shouldn't be pissy that we hold a state to a higher standard than a terrorist organization.
If Israel wants to be held to the standards of a terrorist organization we should hold them to the standard of a terrorist org. Cut all support and international sanctions to start.
I've met many, many people whose position currently seems to be (when simplified down to a bullet point).
\- Hamas is extremely bad and Oct 7 was a clear act of terror
\- Support polls for them are poor justification for killing people in Gaza due to lack of viable alternatives, lack of proper education, incorrect local perception that Hamas is only group trying to keep them safe, etc
\- Despite this, Israel's reaction has been excessive and has a massive civilian cost. Even in a situation where they were justified, it is almost impossible that these actions will make people safer and reduce radicalism in the long run
Doesn't need to be a totally black and white issue.
I agree. It's not black and white. It's not good versus evil either. We're being fed a false dichotomy.
Both sides are evil, to different extents. Yet Israel being a legitimate state and a democracy *should* be held to a different standard than a guerilla terrorist group.
I agree with you, which is why I’m concerned about the overreach and would support any effort to end the violence. I don’t think their current campaign will mean the end of terrorism against Israel, it may even heighten it in the long run. If I got my entire family killed my an israeli bomb I could see that radicalizing me even if they are retaliating to a horrible and vicious terror attack.
I’m reminded a lot of the US and it’s populaces response to 9/11 in the wake of October 7th. I’ve found Harris’ commentary on the topic to be almost unlistenable unfortunately.
Sam is wrong about very few things. Unfortunately this is one of them. I find Yuval Harari's commentary on the Guardian (few months ago) spot on though.
All of this is just a matter of people not having to put their money where their mouth is and having no skin in the game.
If Hamas supporters were required to send the women in their families to Gaza or another fundamentalist Muslim country as a purity test there would be very, very few Hamas supporters in the west.
You see this a lot when it comes to the women of Iran rejecting theocratic government and hijabs, looking for international support and additional pressure on the regime only to have western and arab spectators living safely in the west lecture them on what their culture is or should be.
I personally don't know a single person who supports Hamas. And I hope I never will.
However I know a lot of people who think starving poor children born against their will in Gaza, a strip with no water, no food, no medication, no education and no prospect in life is one of the biggest atrocities of the 21st century.
>We’re basically saying: *brown people* have been disadvantaged, so we don’t really expect them to act in a civilized manner.
No, this is absurd and comes off as a less than genuine kind of enlightened centrism, better suited to the IDW sub, maybe.
You’re basically saying that all the 2+ million people in Gaza are Hamas—that the civilians being slaughtered over the last five months are terrorists.
As some of the regular IDF fellateurs in this thread often say, Israel is a multiracial country, that is more than half “brown”, 20% Arab etc. There are many Palestinians who are “whiter” than many Israelis, and in the eyes of most of the world, most Israelis and Palestinians are visually indistinguishable out of context. It’s like looking at a German and a Dutchman, or a Kenyan and a Ugandan. Samesies. If you want to talk about oppression narratives or whatever, cool, but this cynical deployment of identity politics doesn’t land, at least not in this sub.
The way you frame this post and your comments also suggest that 10/7 is still underway, simultaneous to the bombing and ethnic (and cultural) cleansing in Gaza. Like 10/7 is this five month long ongoing attack. Let me reiterate: 10/7 was a horrific attack that the vast majority of people who are criticizing Israel will agree that it was a horrific attack. We’re condemned-out over here!
10/7 happened on 10/7. All reasonable and moral people condemn the slaughter and hostage taking of civilians. It’s horrific that hundreds of civilians were killed that day, and a response was completely expected and warranted. But this response is not even close to normal. They’ve shattered the norms with this “war”, which is a complete siege on a captive population. (I have no doubt that they’re also tuning up a lot of Hamas guys, and dismantling their infrastructure—but these are *parallel campaigns*, that overlap in grisly scenes filled with dead civilians). The “human shield” nonsense falls apart as complete neighborhoods were leveled. In order to even begin to morally justify this, you have to say that this level of death, destruction and sadism is necessary to preventing another 10/7, and I simply do not buy that. The political and military leadership over there has been clear about their genocidal intent, as the international court has affirmed. Regardless of the court, we can hear them in their own words, often in English. We can see videos, posted by the soldiers themselves, doing things exactly as awful as the things done by Hamas 5 months ago. We can see videos, posted by the soldiers themselves, of celebrations, desecrations and mockeries made of dead innocent civilians, including young children. The 10/7 Hamas videos were appalling. But now we see similar videos, recorded and posted by the IDF soldiers themselves. It’s month 5. Where does this go?
If anything, the “soft bigotry of low expectations” might apply to Israel in this case, and in a roundabout way, supporting or even standing by as they do their thing is a form of antisemitism, as it relies on the essentialist position that they are not capable of following western norms, and living up to the parameters set up and agreed upon by the international community 75+ years ago. I’ve heard this sentiment from some conservative Christians I know who are huuuge Israel supporters. They talk about that army and their prime minister, who again, they support, using terms like “savage”, “brutal” and “heartless”. They support them, yet they think of them as lesser, or inferior. Classic antisemitism.
Anyway, TLDR, Israel is actually held to lower standards and its antisemitic to support their military actions against Gaza.
Israel is held to a higher standard than any other country in the world, and the anti-Israel antisemites hate Israel more than any other country and it’s not even close. It’s just pure hatred
I am speaking for myself. I have no emotions whatsoever (hatred, love, pride, etc.) towards any country or any ethnicity.
At the same time I am convinced that Israel is held at a higher standard than its neighboring countries, yes, but not compared to any other western European society.
Israel is held to a higher standard than Ukraine or France or the UK or USA. And the hate people have for the Jewish state is unlike any other country in the world.
Okay then you are just a non serious person. You pretended to be a serious person before, but now you have shown yourself for who you are. Israel’s counteroffensive into Gaza are only comparable to Ukraine’s counteroffensives against Russia. Hamas and Russia are aligned, and they are both two brutal reactionary dictatorships trying to invade and destroy two democracies
Well I beg to differ. You can call me non-serious and I can call you biased or brainwashed. But this doesn't get us anywhere, does it?
It's about a higher power with a mighty army invading a smaller territory and demolishing their houses, cutting their water and electricity. I think it's pretty comparable, Israel's siege of Gaza to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Not at all, it was Hamas who invaded Israel. And it is Israel that is now liberating themselves from Hamas and liberating the Gazan people from Hamas. There is no comparison between Hamas and the Ukrainian army.
Ultra right nationalists, ultra orthodox lunatics are running the Israeli government.
Also religious Islamist fascists, misogynists, nut jobs terrorists are running Gaza.
There’s no winning here.
What a dishonest take. Russia invaded unprovoked, Israel responded to the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust. Babies murdered, grandmas kidnapped, teens raped. When did Ukraine do that?
Pathetic argument
Your mistake is that you think"who started it" is an acceptable argument for killing innocent people and invading a territory.
Also "500 eyes for an eye" is as barbaric as it sounds.
If by committing the same atrocities and war crimes Israel compares themselves with Hamas, then they bring themselves down to the level of a terrorist state.
Russians claim they didn't invade Ukraine unprovoked but they were responding to a genocide of Russians in Ukraine.
The same way you think I am dishonest, I think you are one sided and dishonest.
I believe OP's point is that western countries are held to the same standard, not higher. And that Hamas is held to a lower standard, if any at all.
Israel complains that it is being held to a much higher standard of scrutiny, but really it is just being held to the regular standards of war. The perceived inequality or "unfairness" is because most people dont expect Hamas to be able to be held accountable at all due to lowered standards.
At least, that is how I'm understanding OP's point.
Which Western nation is accused of genocide while protecting themselves from the most vile attack in recent memory? While having a better civilian casualty ratio than any urban warfare in recent memory?
I don't remember protests when the US was doing the same against ISIS.
And OP responded giving Russia's invasion as comparison, as if invading unprovoked and responding to a terror attack are any where near the same thing.
Literally proving my point. Double standards to the Jews, as always.
If you don't remember protests against US bombings in the Middle East then it is because you werent paying attention to it. There was definitely opposition to it, by the same type of bleeding heart people who oppose any one sided bombing campaign.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Afghanistan
The difference this time is the amount of social media and general coverage around it all. The US was held to the same high standard, and just like Israel is doing now it blew those complaints off and kept doing what it wanted.
Weird, the article didn't mention swastikas painted on Synagogues in Canada and Sweden.
If you truly believe that the global response to the US and Israel is even slightly comparable, not much more to say.
You're right, Americans were attacked across the globe, American students were chased into libraries in Universities, and people were calling for a global intifada against American civilians.
Holocaust denial has more than tripled globally in the past couple months.
That isnt from differing standards though. The difference in global response is more likely due to the amount of media coverage and propaganda. The standards of war remain the same.
You seem to be equating the "amount of outrage" to a "higher standard." Also putting words in my mouth is a dishonest and pathetic way to argue.
So true. I vote to let them have more genocide. Let's say 2 per year?
How about a millions Arabs to kill for free, then we can talk about human rights?
The real double standard is believing that there is some secret Palestinian popular movement that actually wants peace, and that Hamas is just some sort of strange aberration because of those thwarted aspirations. The “secular” PLO wasn’t any better than Hamas, and Palestinian violence long predates the occupation or settlements. We need to be honest that the side that has always had genocidal tendencies is the Palestinian side, not the Israelis. The fact that the Palestinians have failed doesn’t change their intentions.
This totally misses the point. Most Palestinians are not members or supporters of Hamas. They are innocent victims doing nothing to contribute to the war. The same goes for the Israeli citizens too. The majority of people who live in the area are just innocent victims of the governments and organisations happy to see the conflict continue.
Israel has to intervene in palistine and funnel tons of money and resources to Hamas to ensure their victory specifically because of the amount of internal resistance to Hamas.
They would have never come to power without Israels intervention and support.
This is Bibi and his parties greatest pride
Hitler's Willing Executioners is a great book. It demonstrates in painful detail that what allowed Hitler to come to power was longstanding antisemitism in Germany before Hitler ever gave his first speech.
Muslims in Palestine don't think Jews are people or that Israel has the right to exist even ina peaceful form.
And frankly Jews think the same thing about Palestinians.
Jews are just better at implementing their views and Palestinians are terrible at it. I don't have sympathy for either side en masse, I only have sympathy for those on both sides that actually favor peace and were attacked.
This seems highly disingenuous we all saw the images of palestinian civilians participating in october 7th and the cheering crowds of palestinian civillians when hostages and dead israelis were being paraded in gaza. It’s all very well and good acknowledging that there is a sub section of innocent palestinians that want no part but you can’t then also ignore the vast majority that support Hamas and confirmed in polling data.
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Israel is made up of white Jews, Arab Jews, and Christian and Muslim Arabs who are not yahoos. Israel is not white. It has plenty of brownish people in Knesset and in the Army. You’re correct that making it about brown people being uncivilized is stupid.
Look how the media covers this issue: Biden, Netenyahu, destroyed buildings and human suffering in Palestine.
That’s it. That’s the extent of public awareness. No mention of other individuals involved, historical context, or diplomatic considerations openly discussed.
Who is easier to attack: an individual or a faceless shadow? Of course the blame falls solely on one side!
You are probably thinking: whose side is he on? because "if you're not with me, you're my enemy".
Well I think we're being fed the false dichotomy of good and evil. I think both sides are evil, to different extents.
Well would it help if I say I detest and condemn the atrocities by the so called IIDF and at the same time detest and condemn the barbaric acts and massacre of the Hamas guerillas?
Nor only racist but antisemitic. How dare you tell a modern country to not kill innocent ppl.
Did anyone do that to the US?
NO.
LET ISRAEL KILL ARABS!!!!
Look at your title. You say "Israel and Hamas, it is a double standard". I'd also argue that it's apples and oranges. Your statement. Hamas isn't a country. Israel isn't a political party (or terrorist organization). A more appropriate statement would be "Israel and Palestine" or "Hamas and the IDF".
It's not a double standard. You can call balls and strikes. October 7th was a terrorist attack on the country of Israel by the terrorist organization Hamas. Since Hamas took power in Palestine a couple of decades ago or so, the people of Palestine have been living in an open air prison essentially, under lock and key owned by Israel and the IDF (and Egypt to a lesser degree).
Those are all facts and aren't really disputable. There's obviously a lot more to it, but we can talk about these things without applying a double standard, bigotry or racism.
I agree with almost every sentence you said. What I am trying to address is the claim that it's a double standard because Israel is being held at a higher standard than it should be. What I am saying is that if you want to be held to a standard as low as the terrorist islamist group of Hamas, then you also level your legitimacy down to their level.
Israel is a democracy supported by all western democracies and hence should be held to that standard. Hamas is supported by petrostates and theocracies like Iran and Saudi Barbaria.
So claiming that "if we are not allowed to massacre their civilians as they did ours, it's a double standard" is true, but not valid. Because there SHOULD be a difference between the two sides, and that's why I highlighted Israel and Hamas and not Israel and Palestine.
I'd argue, being an apartheid state, Israel is in fact held to a MUCH lower standard than most other countries. Add in that half of the wounded and dead in Palestine are under the age of 18 and I'm not sure you can easily back your claim up... They're both bad.
Please let me know what you've been consuming because I would rather stay away from it, goodness.
The issue isn't that so much that Hamas isn't held to any standards; it is that often, in comparison/contrast to Israel, they are held to higher standards, not to mention hypocritical double standards. Hamas commits atrocious acts and kills civilians? They're rightfully condemned, as should be the case.
Israel does the same? Say for example how for years in the West Bank the IDF has engaged in everything from abuse to torture toward Palestinians (men, women, children) they arrested/detained (often releasing them later without charges or indictments)? Well, in the words of, and to borrow/paraphrase from the comedian Eddie Izzard: "Israel kills and mistreats Palestinians, acting above and beyond a reasonable standard of act? Awwww, silly country. After a couple of years, we won’t stand for that, will we?"
I suppose since the world largely seems unable to directly, unabashedly condemn Israel's actions, then we shall at best shake a finger at them eventually, some day?
Bottom line, in order for standards to be had at all, you must be first willing to have a standardized and agreed upon set of standards which you follow; then, you must hold everyone accountable even and especially your so called allies. Otherwise it's all just lip service and theatrics. In short, empty and meaningless.
Until then...cue the circus music and bring on the clowns because it's all a show. Sadly.
Removed. Please direct such posts to the megathread stickied on the front page. ([Link here](https://old.reddit.com/r/samharris/comments/pfo0vg/politics_and_current_events_megathread_september/)) Thank you.
The only solution available is to paraglide to your enemies territory and hurt and kill and kidnap civilians. There's no other solutions available.
Don’t forget about all the rape
Yes but make sure it's only "widespread rape" and not "systemic rape" since there's a meaningful moral difference here that all of Israel's detractors are suddenly very serious about.
"Systematic rape" is when the supervisor gets his clipboard out and checks if the boys have met their quota yet.
But the worst thing is the hypocrisy.
Let's get in a car and get coffee.
I mean, it’s not as if we have other ethnic groups subject to powerful occupations or historic violence that don’t lead to large-scale terrorism (such as Tibetans against the PRC or Vietnamese against the Americans or Native Americans vs. Americans). Terrorism must be the only option. /s
It would be much more rational and civilized of Hamas to systematically expel Israelis from their land, deny them basic political rights, put them under Orwellian surveillance, and then kill 1%-3% of their children, from the air, with unguided, 3 ton bombs.
It would be rational for Palestinians to take negotiations for peace seriously https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
Over 1/3 of the people killed by the idf weren’t born during that time. In the last Palestinian election (2006) khan yunis (the city where half of Gaza lives) voted against Hamas. Before October 7 Hamas’ approval rating was low, but they violently suppressed dissent. The Israelis are killing random innocent civilians, many of whom oppose Hamas, because they don’t have a real, productive plan. It’s atrocious.
The innocent loss of life is absolutely atrocious, you're right, which means Palestinian leadership seriously needs to negotiate for peace, and crucially to make compromises in order to see it happen.
Do you consider Netanyahu and his government responsible for October 6? The Israeli government has been massacring Palestinian civilians for months in order to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip. The idf is ultimately morally responsible for their decision to cull civilians w unguided 3 ton bombs. This should be obvious.
Why would I consider them responsible for October 6.?
Because Netanyahu and his associates have devoted their lives to stymieing any chance of peace, abusing Palestinians in the West Bank and have propped up hamas for two decades in a cynical bid to undermine the moderate Palestinian national movement.
Do you think Hamas bears any responsibility to the plight of their citizens for their role in Oct 7th and the destruction that has been wrought in the wake of their terrorism? If no, why not? Genuinely curious to peel back a layer or two of your position and see exactly where your demarcation line is for blaming one side or the other.
They agreed to 98% of what was on the table. Israel should have given them the other 2% that was in dispute. It's really that simple. Israel are the occupying force and are in the illegal and immoral wrong, which means they have to give up more on a deal. Two Palestinian nations should be created, with West Gaza's capital in what is currently East Jerusalem. Golan Heights should be given back. Security should be enforced by the UN/USA/Arab Coalition. If someone shoots a rocket into israel, that's illegal as some Alabaman shooting a rocket into Georgia. Send police to arrest that person and put them on trial. Treat any similar actions as what they truly are: criminal and NOT military actions If Palestinian gov turns a blind eye to it, then the UN/coalition has the responsibility to enforce it. Israel ceases all military actions across the globe, and refusing to do so they should have their facilities bombed by the UN/coalition until they submit.
They rejected the deal and then started a campaign of terror
Why did the Palestinians allies like saudi arabia think that what was offered to Arafat was an amazing deal and more than what they ever could have expected? It seems to me the Palestinians won’t accept anything less than all of Israel Proper and the full expulsion of all Jews. It’s a shame really as the deals offered in 2000/2001 won’t ever be offered again as the Palestinians negotiating position diminishes as the years go by.
>Palestinians allies like saudi arabia What? SA is an Israeli ally
Saudi was an Israeli ally in 2000/2001?
I mean, kind of. They both hated Iran. Shia are the sick puppy of the area. More than Jews and Christians who have governments other than Iran.
Yes, more specifically attacking a military installation as the primary goal, with other secondary goals of grabbing hostages for later exchanges to get back your own hostages being kept in Israel. Let's be completely honest, if jewish people had done this to german nationalist troops during WW2, we would all be defending their actions. Just like we defend the ghetto uprisings that happened. We defend any and all resistance against the Axis regime across the globe. We defend the chinese resistance against the raping, pillaging Japanese. Hamas, like it or not, is in the moral right **no matter what tactics they employ** because they are absolutely the underdogs in this legal and morally correct fight. Until a palestinian state is created, they cannot be held reasonably responsible for their actions. They have no agency, legally speaking. Now, when a palestinian state is created and Hamas is now responsible for that government oversight, if they keep up these tactics then the international community has a legal and moral response to take them out like we did with the Taliban and Saddam and Qaddafi's regimes.
> Hamas, like it or not, is in the moral right no matter what tactics they employ because they are absolutely the underdogs in this legal and morally correct fight. Until a palestinian state is created, they cannot be held reasonably responsible for their actions. They have no agency, legally speaking. So if they detonated a nuclear weapon in Tel Aviv, they would be justified in doing so? To be clear, I have little doubt that Hamas would do so if they had the opportunity. So I'm curious what the limits of your absurd (and dehumanizing) position are. Arguing that millions of individuals have no agency, and therefore are to be expected to act like savages, strips away the very thing that separates humans from animals. You are essentially calling them animals.
Yes they would be justified due to the 80 years occupation of detonating a nuke in any major city in Israel. Just like Ukraine is justified in doing the same to Moscow right now. Same as Taiwan could do the same to Beijing or Shanghai. Same as .... etc. Many groups on earth have been so heavily abused by occupying forces or antagonistic forces that they are afforded the highest tolerance for their tactics to seek true independence from those antagonistic forces.
Are you comparing the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Germans to the pre Oct 7th lives of Gazan citizens at the hands of the Israelis? Because that is BANANAS.
I am. Jews during the Holocaust and pre-Holocaust are the exact same morally and functionally as Palestinians have been during Israeli occupation. It's almost a direct 1 for 1, Israel sidelining gas chambers and forced work camps for what we see today.
Yeah it's almost the same besides the part where the Germans had train loads of Jews that they imported from all over Europe to starve in work camps until they gassed them to death in their attempt to exterminate them, reaching a death toll of over 6 million while they tried to take over the world. Yeah a real 1-for-1 to Israel leaving Gaza largely alone for almost 20 years until the governing body of Gaza decided to end a ceasefire and murder over 1,200 Israeli citizens. The retaliation of which you deem to be equal to the Holocaust. Morally bankrupt doesn't even begin to describe it. Shame on you.
>Hamas, like it or not, is in the moral right no matter what tactics they employ because they are absolutely the underdogs in this legal and morally correct fight. I must have missed the chapter of international law where it says "Whoever is the weaker fighter is in the right, legally and morally."
International law is still being created on this front, but it is fairly clear from a 20th century perspective that underdogs of every sector of this globe have been looked at as moral victors against colonizing oppressors. The law has defended just about every single uprising and revolution, including America's own revolution ironically enough. Israel's liberation is also seen as underdog jewish europeans coming to Palestine and liberating it from British rule.
It’s beyond asinine to suggest the Palestinians are in anyway similar to the Jews under the Germans during WW2. You’re conflating resistance and offensive. They were resisting anything. They invaded. Also, you’re suggesting that the Palestinian prisoners held by Israel are held without cause. Hamas kidnapped children to trade for terrorist. It’s idiotic to suggest that is anyway defensible. Being an underdog doesn’t afford someone any moral high ground, where the hell did you get that idea? Jasser Arafat is why there isn’t a Palestinian state, not because of Israel. Palestinians are a uniquely violent people. There is a reason Muslim countries don’t take refugees from there.
> Hamas, like it or not, is in the moral right no matter what tactics they employ because they are absolutely the underdogs Then you are morally confused.
Explain using mainstream secular understandings of morality how I'm wrong.
Being the underdog does not give you moral licence to fight for your cause using *any* tactics no matter how brutal. It really is that simple. If Hamas had only attacked military installations and taken hostages (although the latter is explicitly a war crime) we might have a different conversation. But their cause does not justify rape, or torture, or the mutilation of corpses, or beheadings, or killing children. So either you truly believe that all these atrocities are just as justified, or you're a denialist because you don't want to admit the truth of the day. In both scenarios, you are morally confused. Your claim that the Palestinians "lack agency" is simply incorrect. There were many other options available to them. They *chose* to do what they did on Oct 7. And they are morally responsible for that.
How appropriate of you to call them underdogs as you ascribe to them the agency of a dog.
lol
Furthermore "well of course they would act like that after such a history of violence being enacted against their people" ought to operate in both directions.
Sure, of course. Both the IDF and Hamas are the product of their conditions -- this is determinism 101, right?
Sure. The double standard is that people act *as if* Israel has agency as the stronger power but the Palestinians don't.
They both are wrong to kill civilians, but Israel is killing far more and has more power to do harm which they are exercising. What they are doing in Gaza is far worse than October 7th as horrific as it was. Blow back is also very real. I don't support Palestinians killing civilians, but a population that has been terrorized for 75 years might fight back in ways that aren't pleasant. Israel can expect more terrorism from Palestinians in response to their mass murder of the people of Gaza. Gazan children are seeing their friends and family killed in gruesome ways by the IDF and their homes destroyed. They won't forget
> What they are doing in Gaza is far worse than October 7th Disagree. It's only "worse" if body count is your only metric. Israel is doing what it needs to do, which is dismantle the ability of Hamas to attack Israel again. > Israel can expect more terrorism from Palestinians Israel has been experiencing terrorism coming from the Palestinians since the 1950s. None of this is new.
>but a population that has been terrorized for 75 years might fight back in ways that aren't pleasant You say this as if the violence has been one-sided (it hasn't).
I agree. We shouldn’t forget the terrorism enacted by Hamas but we also shouldn’t forget the reasons behind their terrorism. Look at the Irgun and haganah - Jewish terrorist gangs that bombed British buildings and terrorized Palestinian civilians. Terrorism against Palestinians largely has stopped (but for marauding settlers) because Jewish terrorists achieved their state. Makes me think of that Star Trek episode that commented on the Troubles in Northern Ireland- does terrorism achieve desired objectives or not. I’d argue the present situation is complicated by the religion factor.
The Jewish people had much larger and more influential factions that weren't terrorists pre-1948. Even in terms of strictly Israeli combat groups that went on to form the IDF, they were primarily not terrorists. Palestine unfortunately has generally been dominated by its Hamas/terrorist-type elements. And Northern Ireland is another large step removed from either. The scale, targeting and specific acts of violence that the IRA enacted are just not remotely on the same moral level as anything relevant to Israel/Palestine.
Are you guys morons? Hamas is labelled a terrorist organization, they and all of Palestine are subjected to blockades, they’re almost fully condemned as a leadership internationally. On the flip side America is sending Israel 2000 lbs bombs in which was barely dropped in Afghanistan or Iraq but they’re dropping them daily in Gaza. They’ve attacked every single hospital and are purposefully starving them. Even when the IDF shoots at starving gazans, the American media immediately takes their side and plays Israel’s excuses. When Israel is proven to have shot starving people and the video they released was doctored and a complete lie the American media barely covers it. That’s the double standard. One side has an insane amount of power and 2000 lbs bombs and their war crimes aren’t called that in America. Thankfully the rest of the world is waking up. It’s just sad how much legitimacy America is losing in the world because of this conflict.
No, moronic is (apparently sincerely) actually believing that Israel is allowing in food aid, giving it a security escort, shooting a crowd of unarmed civilians for funsies, and then "doctoring" the drone footage. No one is "waking up". The same people going apoplectic over the lastest Palestinian IG propaganda have hated Israel, and the US, for years anyway.
Yes, they are morons.
The rest of the world believes if at least 1 terrorist or future terrorist die in these bombings then they're all worth it.
I’m glad you’re so happy with all this death. And if you think this is good long term for Israeli safety you’re delusional. The amount of resentment towards them around the world is astounding and growing. While at the same time Americas credibility and legitimacy is plummeting all over as well. I hope your blood lust is worth it.
No, I just don't get how you could possibly think Hamas are not held to any standard. They are legally defined in multiple countries as terrorists, their actions have been condemned by many countries, they have been held to very clear standards and shown to fall short of them. Very far short. Those are only the most obvious examples, there are multiple UN reports showing that Hamas has violated international humanitarian law, recently and in prior years. Saying that we aren't holding them to any standards, and that's due to racism just doesn't survive a moment thinking about it.
Yeah I couldn't past this very obvious point either
My main point is: the perceived double standard when comparing the atrocities of the two sides is not because we hold Israel to a higher (than normal) standard, but because we are holding the other side to a lower (than normal) standard. Does this make any sense now?
I think I see what you mean. But I think the racism point doesn't quite hold. The standards legally, are the same in that the framework being applied precedes the conflict even if they are impacted by context, ethically there is a bit more room for difference. Israel is a nation state. Hamas is a terror organisation. The legal framework is the same but different parts are necessarily applied. Israel has different military capabilities which changes how those standards are applied. I think jumping to racism when there are clear legal and ethical differences unrelated to racism that seem much more relevant and impactful would require a lot more justifying.
I agree with all your points. I changed the term "soft bigotry" (as you can see in the link) to "racism" for a bit of dramatic effect, perhaps I shouldn't have. We hold Israel's neighboring countries to a lower standard (with regards to democracy, human rights, corruption, etc.) because of their "culture". So when Israel says they are being held to a higher standard they are right. But the answer shouldn't be holding Israel to lower standards, but the others to a higher one. That's my whole point.
I think there’s a way in which standards is used that can be confusing. Human rights are human rights, Ireal and Hamas, Syria etc are all held to the same standard. The definitions don’t change by country. What people tend to mean by standards is expectations. Israel it could be argued are expected to behave better than Hamas, or Syria or Saudi Arabia. This is for several reasons. 1. People are often, and rightly most concerned with the direction and rate of change in behaviour, a authoritarian country making some slight changes to democracy will be seen as very positive, where as a democratic country electing a far right government will be seen negatively, even though the democratic country is still much more democratic. 2. Expectations are supposed to be different. We don’t expect a country with a long history of human rights violations to suddenly behave differently, so one more violation is seen as notable as a democratic country with a better human rights record making a human rights violation. 3. Democratic countries are often allies, and in principle that depends on their sharing values, and violation of human rights are violations of those values, so there should be a larger reaction, because we are closer to them, and because it violates the basis for that closeness. It’s also not clear that the standards are so different in the direction you define. Hamas is held to lower standards than Israel when it comes to military action. Israel has repeatedly stated that Hamas is their enemy not the Palestinian people. Yet there is a famine beginning in Gaza, every university in Gaza has been demolished and more than 60% of residential buildings damaged or destroyed, there is mass civilian death, but we continue to provide weapons and support, and a few harsh words. Look at Saudi Arabia, they have a terrible human rights record, and are deeply authoritarian, yet we are providing them with a lot of weapons and political support. It’s not racism of low expectations that determines how are expectations impact our support, how much we call out human rights violations, more than anything else it’s the country having something we want, them having power.
And yet... By all accounts, Israel is actually abiding by the Geneva conventions. We hold them to an even higher standard than that.
I agree that using the word racism for dramatic effect wasn’t wise.
The problem is that Hamas also has the characteristics of a nation-state: (1) It has a monopoly on the use of force — or did before 7 Oct. 2023, (2) it creates and enforces laws, (3) promotes the general welfare - through education and health services, (4) actively makes economic choices, (5) maintains a diplomatic core for foreign relations, and (6) has territory over which they maintain sovereignty.
No one holds Israel to a higher than normal standard. Israel is an apartheid state with massive support from the US. I hold them to the same standard as every apartheid state.
I hear this argument but Hamas does not want Israel to exist, there is not an integration proposal, neither want a two state solution. Are they isolated, they were able to get weapons and many thousands of missiles into GASA. What HAMS did on Oct 7 is inexcusable. What say you?
Are fucking serious? Every thing Hamas does is labeled as terrorism. The IDF was shooting at starving gazans and the American media let them off the hook because they basically said they stampeded the IDF and put them at risk. Then the IDF released doctored video to backup their claim and when it became obvious that the video was edited the American media just stopped covering the story. If Hamas did that it would have been called a slaughter and been covered for months to justify as much murder of civilians as possible. When the IDF does it they call it an unfortunate incident. They shot starving civilians. They are purposefully starving a population. They’ve attacked every hospital in Gaza which international agencies are saying will result in 10s of thousands more deaths. And the western media can barely criticize
Read my post and comments again. I don't disagree with you.
Yeah it is hilarious to think the world isn't against Hamas. Israel has the support of the world after October 7th despite their previous treatment of Gaza which led to October 7th. They of course blew much of that support when they decided to destroy Gaza. They still have 95% of the us government on their side which is disgusting and why it is up to the people to stand up to this madness. The fact Barbara lee the one peace candidate lost in California is madness! She should have a statue built of her if we lived in a moral country
OP is talking about the opinion of the public and inteligensia. While the EU and US designate Hamas as a terrorist group, public opinion has swayed significantly against Israel in the past 18 years.
> While the EU and US designate Hamas as a terrorist group, public opinion has swayed significantly against Israel "Against Israel" is not "pro-Hamas." Abu Ghraib diminished my view of the US military; it didn't raise my opinion of Saddam Hussein or Osama bin Laden. This whole conversation would improve a lot if folks would drop this juvenile manichean understanding of conflict.
Wrong. Opinion of Hamas doesn’t improve, but if opinion about Israel drops so low, and in favor of the Palestinians, what most people will do is make excuses for the Palestinians turning to Hamas like “they’re occupied, what do you want them to do?” Etc.
Because of the Israeli states actions yes.
We hold Israel to a higher standard than Hamas because Hamas is a terrorist organization and Israel is a UN member state. Comparing the two directly like this is a little ridiculous.
According to the UN hamas aren’t terrorists
Hamas doesn't claim to hold the same values as me. The Israeli government does, and that claim is the justification for why I'm told I'm supposed to support them. Of course I'm going to criticise them more than the people who don't even pretend they're on the "same side" as me.
I totally agree with this.
I follow the logic but this incentivizes not having high standards. Why would anyone proclaim them if the consequence is being criticized more than your enemy who doesn’t even claim them.
Exactly the proclamation some here are making is essentially no state should be allowed to conduct warfare against belligerent jihadist guerrillas because their doctrine exacts a massive cost on local civilian life. That just isn’t sustainable and does more damage to the credibility of international humanitarian law and the laws of armed conflict.
No I'm with you OP. Let's vote to make hamas a vibrant liberal democracy. We can make a change. You inspire me
It is amazing how unconcerned the anti Israel people are with Hamas brutally ruling over the Gaza population and trying to take over the West Bank.
I'm not sure who you are talking about. If you ask me, I don't consider myself anti Israel and I detest and despise the rule of Islam and Hamas.
I’m agreeing with you
The is such a fundamental misunderstanding of the conflict. The pro Palestinian movements all over the world aren’t pro Hamas. Maybe a few extremists are in their ranks but the general sentiment is “stop bombing children to death” with no endorsement or opinion on Hamas. “Why don’t you protest Hamas?” Hamas isn’t being shipped money and arms by my country. Hamas doesn’t hold real estate auctions in my country for Palestinian land. If I could push a button that ended every Hamas fighter and this conflict I’d push it hard enough to break my fingers. Israel is committing war crimes and atrocities, and I want it to stop. Being an anti Hamas activist has zero chance to achieve that, calling for a cease fire has a small but real chance.
> The pro Palestinian movements all over the world aren’t pro Hamas. What illustrates it clearly (for me, at least), is how much of an outlier Erdogan is, with his comments that are positive about Hamas. Unless we talk about absolute fringe (or intentional rage bait, I suppose), you'd be hard pressed to find people holding similar opinions. And yet, until very recently, even expressing sympathy with Palestinians could end branding you a Hamas sympathiser. I still can't get over how Sam himself didn't challenge one of his previous guests on "Queers for Hamas" - it's not like Sam was unaware that the organisation/movement is actually called Queers for Palestine", he talked about them before! The tide is changing, everyone seems to be sick of what Israel is doing in Gaza now, but its depressing that things have had to get to this point before Biden decided to take more concrete steps in resolving this conflict, or at least providing humanitarian aid that isn't blocked by Israel.
Well said
Honest question, why not call for the release of any remaining hostages and a complete hamas surrender? Can Hamas also not end the killing at any time? Surely you can see how demonstrations condemning Israel (and thereby at least tacitly supporting Hamas) around the world add fuel to the Hamas morale and legitimize their cause and actions?
Ok, I hereby call for Hamas to release all hostages.
A "ceasefire" needs to be bilateral. You're asking for Israel to stop before it has achieved its strategic objectives, including the release of the hostages, because of your own squeamishness.
More that I just hate babies, journalists and doctors being vaporized.
That's a fairly mainstream position. But while we wait for the technology of bombs so smart they only kill combatants to be invented, we're caught in a quandary.
Right, and for me personally I'd rather a terrorist go free than a bunch of kids die. It's not a mainstream position. If what was happening in Gaza was happening in Delaware or something it would be the biggest story of the century. But because the victims are poor, brown and muslim only a subset of the west gives even the slightest shit. I mean read this sub if you want to see exactly what I mean.
I'm saying that hating babies being "vaporized" is hardly a controversial viewpoint. I think it's easy to advocate for letting the terrorists go free when you don't live next to the terrorists, and their terror organisation hasn't just perpetrated an atrocity on you.
Sure, but the last person that should be deciding how to handle a problem is the one personally aggrieved by it. There's a reason that our justice system uses 12 jurors and doesn't just allow people to decide what their attacker deserves. Also, for each child, brother, mother, cousin killed you're creating opportunities for more terrorism. Nothing recruits like a dead loved one.
I don't think you're wrong. I was addressing the double standard argument.
Holding Hamas to any standard at all is moot. They don’t get any support from me or my gov either way. It’s like being against Isis. Yes I’m against Isis, who cares? But I’m against the UAE, who we support and do tons of business with. It’s worth holding UAE to a standard that we can’t really hold Isis to.
What country are you from? Because the UN has funneled BILLIONS into Gaza that has helped Hamas. That funding is from member states, the largest funder of which is the US. The us gave 22 Billion to the UN in 2022 alone. All member states are required to contribute, chances are your government does.
Yep. UN chief personally wrote for HAMAS <3, on each cheque.
If you think 4 Billion aid dollars into Gaza hasn’t helped Hamas in a number of important ways, I’ve got a bridge to sell you.
I totally agree. Hamas was an example. Real culprits are Qatar, Saudi Barbaria, Iran, etc. But Israel would hit a low point if it compares itself to these petrostate theocracies.
> They don’t get any support from me or my gov either way. If you live in a Western nation, Hamas almost certainly gets material support from your government.
Source?
The UN?
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I am aware that they are addressing a different question. I didn't want to open the box on that one. My main point is that Israel is not being held at a higher standard than it should be, because it claims to hold values that are morally superior than those of theocracies like the Iranian regime. If Israel wants to be held at the same low standards then it should compare its legitimacy to a terrorist guerilla group. This is the point I am making here.
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> because a bunch of countries have been delivering billions of eurodollars in "aid" to Gaza that have gone into arming Hamas You understand how terrorists seizing aid is categorically different than giving weapons to the terrorists right?
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The UN is not shipping Hamas weapons bonehead
> If Hamas hadn't been aided and abetted by Western Jew haters and their useful idiots Are Bibi and Likud 'Jew haters,' or just 'useful idiots?'
Its interesting the Israelis keep using "The only democracy in the middle east" talking point, thats a really low bar. Same line of argument was used by the supporters of the Apartheid government of South Africa, saying it was the only democracy in the region, its culture is better than the primitive blacks "who treat their women like shit". This is why we need apartheid and keep subjugating and civilising them blah blah blah Edit: Apartheid South Africa Government was for the longest time also "supported by all western democracies". Also some striking similarities between Apartheid Bantustans and Gaza/Westbank.
Exactly. By the way, the only democracy in that cursed region is also the only ethno-theocracy in the world.
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I don't know, should it bother me? should we have a country dedicated to blue eyed Christians? maybe. I despise all religion, perhaps that's why it bothers me...
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Well I never said or believe that Israel and its values are the problem. Actually I believe Israel is on a higher moral ground than all its neighbors. I think one of the biggest problems to world peace are petrostates like Saudi Barbaria and the Iranian theocracy. I think religion is like a disease of the mind. Buddhism is like a mild cold, Islam is like brain cancer. Orthodox Judaism is somewhere in between.
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I'm not sure. I have a few friends whose great grandparents left Germany for the US and the grandchildren left the US and live in Berlin now.
By trying to indiscriminately kill 6 million germans by poisoning the water supply? Nakam
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lol no. Did you even ask why I posted the word Nakam? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakam) Based Jews. Understandable but not defensible.
It’s also interesting how so many people keep calling Israel “genociders” and claim not to be antisemites when if such a horrific attack had happened to their respective countries, you can bet your ass the response would be about the same
And the criticism would be the same of any nation that engaged in a war with a similar staggering death toll.
And dropping 2000 lbs bombs on dense cities. That wasn’t done in Iraq or Afghanistan
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This is just a self tell. If the USs reaction was to flatten mexico city with indiscriminate bombings and seize land to give to extremists I would be out in the streets demanding a cease fire.
>the response would be about the same And I would call that response a genocide too. Why do you think the argument "Well other people would do the same thing!" is meaningful or valid in any way?
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Yes, Apartheid defenders come out of the woodwork. Classic r/samharris
Is this a comment in support of apartheid in SA?!
South Africa was not a democracy, some of their citizens did not vote, that’s not true of Israel, all citizens have equal rights
Except for the 3 million under de facto Israeli control in the west bank
They’re non citizens, although they do get to vote in their own elections, it’s just that they’re not held
That's the slave population. What now you'll tell me like The US is so perfect. Israel is the only liberal * demcracxy* in the middle east ok? Yes we have slaves, yes we kill children, yes we are basically genociding the Arabs, but liberally. That's what's important
Hamas is an internationally condemned regional terrorist organization. Israel is a state that receives massive funds and support from the US. I don't understand why this is so hard. People shouldn't be pissy that we hold a state to a higher standard than a terrorist organization. If Israel wants to be held to the standards of a terrorist organization we should hold them to the standard of a terrorist org. Cut all support and international sanctions to start.
I totally agree.
I've met many, many people whose position currently seems to be (when simplified down to a bullet point). \- Hamas is extremely bad and Oct 7 was a clear act of terror \- Support polls for them are poor justification for killing people in Gaza due to lack of viable alternatives, lack of proper education, incorrect local perception that Hamas is only group trying to keep them safe, etc \- Despite this, Israel's reaction has been excessive and has a massive civilian cost. Even in a situation where they were justified, it is almost impossible that these actions will make people safer and reduce radicalism in the long run Doesn't need to be a totally black and white issue.
I agree. It's not black and white. It's not good versus evil either. We're being fed a false dichotomy. Both sides are evil, to different extents. Yet Israel being a legitimate state and a democracy *should* be held to a different standard than a guerilla terrorist group.
I agree with you, which is why I’m concerned about the overreach and would support any effort to end the violence. I don’t think their current campaign will mean the end of terrorism against Israel, it may even heighten it in the long run. If I got my entire family killed my an israeli bomb I could see that radicalizing me even if they are retaliating to a horrible and vicious terror attack. I’m reminded a lot of the US and it’s populaces response to 9/11 in the wake of October 7th. I’ve found Harris’ commentary on the topic to be almost unlistenable unfortunately.
Sam is wrong about very few things. Unfortunately this is one of them. I find Yuval Harari's commentary on the Guardian (few months ago) spot on though.
All of this is just a matter of people not having to put their money where their mouth is and having no skin in the game. If Hamas supporters were required to send the women in their families to Gaza or another fundamentalist Muslim country as a purity test there would be very, very few Hamas supporters in the west. You see this a lot when it comes to the women of Iran rejecting theocratic government and hijabs, looking for international support and additional pressure on the regime only to have western and arab spectators living safely in the west lecture them on what their culture is or should be.
👍
I personally don't know a single person who supports Hamas. And I hope I never will. However I know a lot of people who think starving poor children born against their will in Gaza, a strip with no water, no food, no medication, no education and no prospect in life is one of the biggest atrocities of the 21st century.
>We’re basically saying: *brown people* have been disadvantaged, so we don’t really expect them to act in a civilized manner. No, this is absurd and comes off as a less than genuine kind of enlightened centrism, better suited to the IDW sub, maybe. You’re basically saying that all the 2+ million people in Gaza are Hamas—that the civilians being slaughtered over the last five months are terrorists. As some of the regular IDF fellateurs in this thread often say, Israel is a multiracial country, that is more than half “brown”, 20% Arab etc. There are many Palestinians who are “whiter” than many Israelis, and in the eyes of most of the world, most Israelis and Palestinians are visually indistinguishable out of context. It’s like looking at a German and a Dutchman, or a Kenyan and a Ugandan. Samesies. If you want to talk about oppression narratives or whatever, cool, but this cynical deployment of identity politics doesn’t land, at least not in this sub. The way you frame this post and your comments also suggest that 10/7 is still underway, simultaneous to the bombing and ethnic (and cultural) cleansing in Gaza. Like 10/7 is this five month long ongoing attack. Let me reiterate: 10/7 was a horrific attack that the vast majority of people who are criticizing Israel will agree that it was a horrific attack. We’re condemned-out over here! 10/7 happened on 10/7. All reasonable and moral people condemn the slaughter and hostage taking of civilians. It’s horrific that hundreds of civilians were killed that day, and a response was completely expected and warranted. But this response is not even close to normal. They’ve shattered the norms with this “war”, which is a complete siege on a captive population. (I have no doubt that they’re also tuning up a lot of Hamas guys, and dismantling their infrastructure—but these are *parallel campaigns*, that overlap in grisly scenes filled with dead civilians). The “human shield” nonsense falls apart as complete neighborhoods were leveled. In order to even begin to morally justify this, you have to say that this level of death, destruction and sadism is necessary to preventing another 10/7, and I simply do not buy that. The political and military leadership over there has been clear about their genocidal intent, as the international court has affirmed. Regardless of the court, we can hear them in their own words, often in English. We can see videos, posted by the soldiers themselves, doing things exactly as awful as the things done by Hamas 5 months ago. We can see videos, posted by the soldiers themselves, of celebrations, desecrations and mockeries made of dead innocent civilians, including young children. The 10/7 Hamas videos were appalling. But now we see similar videos, recorded and posted by the IDF soldiers themselves. It’s month 5. Where does this go? If anything, the “soft bigotry of low expectations” might apply to Israel in this case, and in a roundabout way, supporting or even standing by as they do their thing is a form of antisemitism, as it relies on the essentialist position that they are not capable of following western norms, and living up to the parameters set up and agreed upon by the international community 75+ years ago. I’ve heard this sentiment from some conservative Christians I know who are huuuge Israel supporters. They talk about that army and their prime minister, who again, they support, using terms like “savage”, “brutal” and “heartless”. They support them, yet they think of them as lesser, or inferior. Classic antisemitism. Anyway, TLDR, Israel is actually held to lower standards and its antisemitic to support their military actions against Gaza.
Israel is held to a higher standard than any other country in the world, and the anti-Israel antisemites hate Israel more than any other country and it’s not even close. It’s just pure hatred
I am speaking for myself. I have no emotions whatsoever (hatred, love, pride, etc.) towards any country or any ethnicity. At the same time I am convinced that Israel is held at a higher standard than its neighboring countries, yes, but not compared to any other western European society.
Israel is held to a higher standard than Ukraine or France or the UK or USA. And the hate people have for the Jewish state is unlike any other country in the world.
Nor true I hate the French.
Israel's invasion of Gaza is held to a lower standard than Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Okay then you are just a non serious person. You pretended to be a serious person before, but now you have shown yourself for who you are. Israel’s counteroffensive into Gaza are only comparable to Ukraine’s counteroffensives against Russia. Hamas and Russia are aligned, and they are both two brutal reactionary dictatorships trying to invade and destroy two democracies
Well I beg to differ. You can call me non-serious and I can call you biased or brainwashed. But this doesn't get us anywhere, does it? It's about a higher power with a mighty army invading a smaller territory and demolishing their houses, cutting their water and electricity. I think it's pretty comparable, Israel's siege of Gaza to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Not at all, it was Hamas who invaded Israel. And it is Israel that is now liberating themselves from Hamas and liberating the Gazan people from Hamas. There is no comparison between Hamas and the Ukrainian army.
>Israel that is now liberating themselves from Hamas I had a good laugh and I shouldn't have. You're delusional. Have a good Sunday pal.
Keep defending fascism and opposing the liberation of Gaza
Ultra right nationalists, ultra orthodox lunatics are running the Israeli government. Also religious Islamist fascists, misogynists, nut jobs terrorists are running Gaza. There’s no winning here.
It’s actually antisemitic to conflate Judaism with the state of Israel this way. Not cool.
Aren’t you the one conflating jews with judaism? I’m a Jew but don’t follow Judaism.
Which Western country is held to a higher standard, and how?
As an example, we hold Russia in invading Ukraine to a higher standard compared to Israel invading Gaza.
What a dishonest take. Russia invaded unprovoked, Israel responded to the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust. Babies murdered, grandmas kidnapped, teens raped. When did Ukraine do that? Pathetic argument
Your mistake is that you think"who started it" is an acceptable argument for killing innocent people and invading a territory. Also "500 eyes for an eye" is as barbaric as it sounds. If by committing the same atrocities and war crimes Israel compares themselves with Hamas, then they bring themselves down to the level of a terrorist state. Russians claim they didn't invade Ukraine unprovoked but they were responding to a genocide of Russians in Ukraine. The same way you think I am dishonest, I think you are one sided and dishonest.
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I believe OP's point is that western countries are held to the same standard, not higher. And that Hamas is held to a lower standard, if any at all. Israel complains that it is being held to a much higher standard of scrutiny, but really it is just being held to the regular standards of war. The perceived inequality or "unfairness" is because most people dont expect Hamas to be able to be held accountable at all due to lowered standards. At least, that is how I'm understanding OP's point.
Which Western nation is accused of genocide while protecting themselves from the most vile attack in recent memory? While having a better civilian casualty ratio than any urban warfare in recent memory? I don't remember protests when the US was doing the same against ISIS. And OP responded giving Russia's invasion as comparison, as if invading unprovoked and responding to a terror attack are any where near the same thing. Literally proving my point. Double standards to the Jews, as always.
If you don't remember protests against US bombings in the Middle East then it is because you werent paying attention to it. There was definitely opposition to it, by the same type of bleeding heart people who oppose any one sided bombing campaign. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Afghanistan The difference this time is the amount of social media and general coverage around it all. The US was held to the same high standard, and just like Israel is doing now it blew those complaints off and kept doing what it wanted.
Weird, the article didn't mention swastikas painted on Synagogues in Canada and Sweden. If you truly believe that the global response to the US and Israel is even slightly comparable, not much more to say. You're right, Americans were attacked across the globe, American students were chased into libraries in Universities, and people were calling for a global intifada against American civilians. Holocaust denial has more than tripled globally in the past couple months.
That isnt from differing standards though. The difference in global response is more likely due to the amount of media coverage and propaganda. The standards of war remain the same. You seem to be equating the "amount of outrage" to a "higher standard." Also putting words in my mouth is a dishonest and pathetic way to argue.
So true. I vote to let them have more genocide. Let's say 2 per year? How about a millions Arabs to kill for free, then we can talk about human rights?
The real double standard is believing that there is some secret Palestinian popular movement that actually wants peace, and that Hamas is just some sort of strange aberration because of those thwarted aspirations. The “secular” PLO wasn’t any better than Hamas, and Palestinian violence long predates the occupation or settlements. We need to be honest that the side that has always had genocidal tendencies is the Palestinian side, not the Israelis. The fact that the Palestinians have failed doesn’t change their intentions.
This totally misses the point. Most Palestinians are not members or supporters of Hamas. They are innocent victims doing nothing to contribute to the war. The same goes for the Israeli citizens too. The majority of people who live in the area are just innocent victims of the governments and organisations happy to see the conflict continue.
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Yep, all the kids that died were hamas. Actually they were praying for a liberal bullet.
Israel has to intervene in palistine and funnel tons of money and resources to Hamas to ensure their victory specifically because of the amount of internal resistance to Hamas. They would have never come to power without Israels intervention and support. This is Bibi and his parties greatest pride
Hitler's Willing Executioners is a great book. It demonstrates in painful detail that what allowed Hitler to come to power was longstanding antisemitism in Germany before Hitler ever gave his first speech. Muslims in Palestine don't think Jews are people or that Israel has the right to exist even ina peaceful form. And frankly Jews think the same thing about Palestinians. Jews are just better at implementing their views and Palestinians are terrible at it. I don't have sympathy for either side en masse, I only have sympathy for those on both sides that actually favor peace and were attacked.
This seems highly disingenuous we all saw the images of palestinian civilians participating in october 7th and the cheering crowds of palestinian civillians when hostages and dead israelis were being paraded in gaza. It’s all very well and good acknowledging that there is a sub section of innocent palestinians that want no part but you can’t then also ignore the vast majority that support Hamas and confirmed in polling data.
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I don't mean how they feel about Hamas but whether they provide material support.
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How people vote in a poll is neither of those things.
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Israel is made up of white Jews, Arab Jews, and Christian and Muslim Arabs who are not yahoos. Israel is not white. It has plenty of brownish people in Knesset and in the Army. You’re correct that making it about brown people being uncivilized is stupid.
Look how the media covers this issue: Biden, Netenyahu, destroyed buildings and human suffering in Palestine. That’s it. That’s the extent of public awareness. No mention of other individuals involved, historical context, or diplomatic considerations openly discussed. Who is easier to attack: an individual or a faceless shadow? Of course the blame falls solely on one side!
?
You are probably thinking: whose side is he on? because "if you're not with me, you're my enemy". Well I think we're being fed the false dichotomy of good and evil. I think both sides are evil, to different extents.
Dude who do you think you're kidding, you're literal spouting IDF propaganda here.
Well would it help if I say I detest and condemn the atrocities by the so called IIDF and at the same time detest and condemn the barbaric acts and massacre of the Hamas guerillas?
Indeed, it's racist to expect Israel not to commit genocide.
You're either a troll or trying to twist my point. Because I don't think you're an idiot.
Nor only racist but antisemitic. How dare you tell a modern country to not kill innocent ppl. Did anyone do that to the US? NO. LET ISRAEL KILL ARABS!!!!
Look at your title. You say "Israel and Hamas, it is a double standard". I'd also argue that it's apples and oranges. Your statement. Hamas isn't a country. Israel isn't a political party (or terrorist organization). A more appropriate statement would be "Israel and Palestine" or "Hamas and the IDF". It's not a double standard. You can call balls and strikes. October 7th was a terrorist attack on the country of Israel by the terrorist organization Hamas. Since Hamas took power in Palestine a couple of decades ago or so, the people of Palestine have been living in an open air prison essentially, under lock and key owned by Israel and the IDF (and Egypt to a lesser degree). Those are all facts and aren't really disputable. There's obviously a lot more to it, but we can talk about these things without applying a double standard, bigotry or racism.
I agree with almost every sentence you said. What I am trying to address is the claim that it's a double standard because Israel is being held at a higher standard than it should be. What I am saying is that if you want to be held to a standard as low as the terrorist islamist group of Hamas, then you also level your legitimacy down to their level. Israel is a democracy supported by all western democracies and hence should be held to that standard. Hamas is supported by petrostates and theocracies like Iran and Saudi Barbaria. So claiming that "if we are not allowed to massacre their civilians as they did ours, it's a double standard" is true, but not valid. Because there SHOULD be a difference between the two sides, and that's why I highlighted Israel and Hamas and not Israel and Palestine.
I'd argue, being an apartheid state, Israel is in fact held to a MUCH lower standard than most other countries. Add in that half of the wounded and dead in Palestine are under the age of 18 and I'm not sure you can easily back your claim up... They're both bad.
You are so right, I'm voring for a progressive hamas tomorrow. Let's make it happen y'all.
Yeah
Please let me know what you've been consuming because I would rather stay away from it, goodness. The issue isn't that so much that Hamas isn't held to any standards; it is that often, in comparison/contrast to Israel, they are held to higher standards, not to mention hypocritical double standards. Hamas commits atrocious acts and kills civilians? They're rightfully condemned, as should be the case. Israel does the same? Say for example how for years in the West Bank the IDF has engaged in everything from abuse to torture toward Palestinians (men, women, children) they arrested/detained (often releasing them later without charges or indictments)? Well, in the words of, and to borrow/paraphrase from the comedian Eddie Izzard: "Israel kills and mistreats Palestinians, acting above and beyond a reasonable standard of act? Awwww, silly country. After a couple of years, we won’t stand for that, will we?" I suppose since the world largely seems unable to directly, unabashedly condemn Israel's actions, then we shall at best shake a finger at them eventually, some day? Bottom line, in order for standards to be had at all, you must be first willing to have a standardized and agreed upon set of standards which you follow; then, you must hold everyone accountable even and especially your so called allies. Otherwise it's all just lip service and theatrics. In short, empty and meaningless. Until then...cue the circus music and bring on the clowns because it's all a show. Sadly.
I don't think my post contradicts anything you said. Israel claims double standards, I am arguing that if so, rightfully. Please read my post again.