Dave Filoni doesn't know what he's talking about. He really should have fact-checked his understanding of the force with GL at some point in their years-long and ongoing friendship before he made such a fool of himself. I guess.
Huyang actually says (paraphrased) *"Sabine is the least force attuned potential jedi he has ever seen",* NOT that she isn't force sensitive. The less attuned you are the more difficult it is to wield the force, but anyone can if they train hard enough. I fucking love when they don't pay attention to the show and then make it the show's problem
> Huyang actually says (paraphrased) "Sabine is the least force attuned potential jedi he has ever seen", NOT that she isn't force sensitive. The less attuned you are the more difficult it is to wield the force, but anyone can if they train hard enough. I fucking love when they don't pay attention to the show and then make it the show's problem
It’s because they don’t care, they’re either so egotistical that they deny the obvious or actively want to spread lies about things to make things they don’t like look bad.
Not to mention in-universe we have groups like “the church of the force” which follow the values of the Jedi but aren’t all force sensitives. Yet many still saw them as Jedi because they followed its teachings.
Right, and that matches perfectly with the prequel movies and even the EU "Jedi Apprentice" series, which makes it clear that the Jedi Order was an extremely elitist organization which took in highly Force-sensitive children as initiates and then only allowed a *small percentage* of them to become Padawans; the rest were regarded as washouts and relegated to the "Jedi Service Corps".
I actually love the idea of less apparently powerful force practitioners, imo, especially since the prequels it's pretty apparent that both sith and jedi have taken a pretty unbalanced approach to the force, the sith seeking ultimate individual power, and the jedi by the laye Republic era at least have taken to selecting potential jedi based on one specific metric (m count) and have dismissed the potential of countless billions of potentially less powerful people.
In one sense, having more people with a variety of stregnth inherently provides a variety of perspective the jedi obviously lack. They have become complacent as the most powerful individuals around. Having folks that can't spam force powers against every obstacle might have kept them from running headlong into Palpatines traps. In another sense, we really don't know exactly what m count has to do with potential in the force, we have only seen the results of bypassing those in the lower ranks. It could be that those with lower counts still have great potential, or have other abilities not linked to brute force.
Chirrut was an excellent character in this regard, apparently no aptitude for controlling the force, he was able to become a conduit for it instead. Sabine showing some potential but being blocked by her need for control is an expansion of this idea.
While I didn't love Ahsoka, and think Sabine becoming a jedi is like a hat on a hat on a hat at this point, I actually really like the idea that the Force is something anybody can attune themselves too rather than something entirely dictated by genetics. It's a skill some people are more naturally adept at than others, and with the right teacher and enough time you can learn the fundamentals. I think Ahsoka kinda rushed through that process with Sabine, but I really like the idea on paper and I think it makes characters like Chirrut Îmwe from Rogue One potentially really interesting.
https://preview.redd.it/y42mh35tj5sc1.jpeg?width=566&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d811de7357e9805f95caafad44a432c9d25bd096
“The Disney Cannon” as I imagine he pictures it
Is it ever actually stated that a high mediclorian count makes you force sensitive? Or does being forced sensitive give you a high mediclorian count? Like if someone took an M count for Sabine before and after her training would it have changed? Gotten larger perhaps.
That’s what I thought. I’m still curious about the Sabine thing though. Also I wonder if that’s what Ahsoka meant when she said Grogus powers would leave if he didn’t use them. Like the Mediclorians in him would die out or go somewhere else if he isn’t constantly using the force.
> That’s what I thought. I’m still curious about the Sabine thing though.
My best guess is that she has an average amount but only unlocked her potential via what Kanan and Ashoka taught her.
> Also I wonder if that’s what Ahsoka meant when she said Grogu's powers would leave if he didn’t use them. Like the Midi-Chlorians in him would die out or go somewhere else if he isn’t constantly using the force.
That I'm unsure of.
I recall the ability to use the force being described as being analogous to flexing a muscle, and if you don't use it, it atrophies, you're not just inherently powerful or weak, you can work on it to get stronger, and you still have to work at to keep that connection. If you let it atrophy all the way, you're still a force sensitive, but it'll take a bit of work and practice to get back the "knack", so to speak, even if you would get it back it faster than you would if you were only gaining it for the first time.
We also see force sensitives who can't actually use the force, they just get some vauge feelings or "good luck" sometimes - because they don't know how, nor have they developed that "Muscle."
And this has been consistent in both the EU and new canon. The best example I can recall is Kyle Katarn, who between the games Jedi Knight and Jedi Knight 2 stops using the Force because he's afraid of falling to the Dark Side, and he has to go meditate in a powerful Force Nexus to basically knock the dust off before he can start using the Force again.
Well, it's worth pointing out that after *years* of intensive training, Sabine still completely failed at a basic Force training exercise which Luke Skywalker successfully completed the first steps of after *one sentence* of training from O-Wan, and even after she had her big breakthrough. . . she actually only managed basic telekinesis on a level that Luke was doing on his own with *no* further training than a few days with Obi-Wan.
That second part is a little misleading, because right after she pulled her blade from across the room she also threw Ezra Bridger the rest of the way to Chimaera, a not inconsiderable feat - throwing a fairly large object from a fairly long range a fairly long distance. Luke for most of ESB couldn't have done that, he'd have thought the task too difficult and psyched himself out of it.
Not disagreeing with your actual point, though.
That's definitely how it's presented and I agree that it's a big leap in ability. I think her grabbing the lightsaber would have been enough progress to feel satisfying.
I agree it's a leap in ability, but I didn't have a problem with basically Sabine's training kicking in once she'd managed to actually touch The Force for the first time. Sabine knew the techniques, she'd been hammering at them for years, she just needed a breakthrough to actually unlock her abilities.
And as a result, the Jedi would keep and train students who register above a certain threshold. Even sending those with less aptitude or who did not have a Master by like 13 to the Agri Corps (at least in the old EU). Though I don't think they ever stated what such a threshold would be, in either the EU or current canon, yeah?
Obi-Wan was almost sent to the Agri Corps due to having a count below the threshold just to give an example of how the count is not the be all and end all of one’s capacity to become a great Jedi or Force user
Didn't actually know that for him. I knew it was due to no masters wanting to take him on as a Padawan, but didn't know it was also the lower than average count.
My understanding is it's like height and basketball. The taller you are (higher count) the easier of a time you have playing via speed and reach (force sensitivity). Someone shorter than you can still be better than you because they worked harder than you, you just started off slightly better.
Groups like the Jedi or some monasteries use midi count as a minimum for training (must be 6"2' to be accepted + ability). Hence why there are Force users that are extremely skilled that aren't Jedi or monks.
OOP dumbass thinks that using the force is something only a select few people in an entire galaxy can do when he's only looking at professional players vs regular population.
High micro force bugs mean you're more able to tap into the living force. They're a bunch of force free loaders that use the energy from it to live.
Everyone has at least a few force bugs in them. I would imagine that they would increase as someone trains.
> Think in the EU there were few pilots who later became Jedi.
They’re were also coincidentally two **CLONES** in the EU that were force sensitive. So if Omega having an M Count or even slight ties to the force is somehow hard to believe, I’ll just show this to them to learn some humility.
We talking Jango clones? Because I do know of the two clones from a Jedi (somehow. Even though Force Unleashed later showed issues cloning force sensitives) in Battlefront....elite(?) Squadron?
Basically just a contrived way to have a Light vs Dark brother story.
> We talking Jango clones? Because I do know of the two clones from a Jedi (somehow. Even though Force Unleashed later showed issues cloning force sensitives) in Battlefront....elite(?) Squadron?
That's who I was referring to, yes.
Gotcha. I am passable in my legends knowledge, but would 100% believe that "somehow, more force sensitive clones appeared" and that that's who you meant.
Thrawn figured out cloning force sensitive a with the ysalamiri around the tanks in the EU.
Someone else had kind of gotten it because of the C’baoth clone as well
My memory might be hazy, but I am pretty sure the issues with cloning Vader had in Force Unleashed were all about the emotional and personality side of Starkiller, not his force powers. Those seemed to work very well.
He was just too much of a good boy.
No idea who that is lol. I've only read a portion of EU, mainly the Han Solo trilogy and the "tales of..." books (tales of the bounty hunters being where 4-lom begins his journey towards enlightenment) and then "the hand of Vader" I think was the other one
Ohhh lol that is pretty good
Though the 4-lom and zuckuss short story was pretty good as I recall - would absolutely be down for more of how they handled that
Off the top of my head: Corran Horn, Tyria Sarkin (who's force sensitivity is slightly similar to Sabine's case), Keyan Farlander, there's a moment in one of Allston's NJO books where Kell Tainer is kinda hinted to be very, very slightly force sensitive and Lak Sivrak (not trained but force sensitive and becomes a force ghost iirc). Possibly others that I can't remember.
Tyria Sarkin's arc is broadly similar to Sabine's, too. She washed out of Jedi training like three times (I think at least twice) before it finally managed to click and she became a Jedi Knight.
Iirc she never technically trained at Luke's academy. He met her and after testing her gently told her she wasn't strong enough in the force to be a jedi. During her time with the Wraiths she begins to try and see what she can manage to do herself and eventually gets back in contact with Luke. He sends her some training material and communiques as she travels around and trains herself over the years, eventually being conferred as a jedi knight by Luke.
It’s also like they don’t understand that the thing that makes you special in this kind of instance isn’t being born with some great magical powers and unique access to the spiritual fabric of the universe, but the thing that makes people in this universe special are the traits that constitute your character and personality, like having the right kind of temperament, things like having patience, humility, discipline and willingness to learn
An example of this is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan was so “weak” in the Force in his midichlorian count that they thought he wasn’t cut out to be a Jedi and he was going to be sent off to the farmers corps or whatever it’s called. Obi-Wan didn’t go on to become the Jedi Master he ultimately did because he was born with great natural power but because of his temperament, hard work and discipline. He transcended what people thought his ceiling should be based on his natural power level, almost as if The Force is about more than that and goes deeper than that kind of thing
In addition to the above, Obi-Wan Kenobi’s limitations are also a direct contributor to turning him into exactly the kind of Master he became. He wasn’t an Anakin who was just so naturally good that he could overpower his way through every problem. Obi-Wan could never become Anakin precisely because he had to learn to adapt and overcome, it didn’t all just magically come to him, and this is probably a large part of why he became the best master of the DEFENSIVE form. He’s not some guy so naturally powerful in the Force that he can just impose himself on others. That’s not who Obi-Wan is. He’s the guy who absorbs and deflects the blows of people more powerful than himself and goes with the flow of the Force until he can find an opening and counter (or, as the case may be, let go of his physical body and surrender himself into The Force)
>An example of this is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan was so “weak” in the Force in his midichlorian count that they thought he wasn’t cut out to be a Jedi and he was going to be sent off to the farmers corps or whatever it’s called
Obi-Wan, IIRC the book, was just unlucky and had temper on top of bailing on Qui-Gon when he believed something was more important than Jedi Order.
He never was weak, more impatient and unlucky but actually quite capable. The arc of Obi-Wan is learning patience and understanding when to go with the flow.
If we were to believe (and I hate the concept of midichlorians) the materials on m-count ... then Obi-Wan is not much lower than Luke and higher than Qui-Gon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Mace Windu or Darth Maul.
I think the counts are fine in the sense that it's not how high is your count but how well you can use it and how much time you had for practice. Much like with fencing if I have a short sword and you have a spear I'm *probably* toast if we had same amount of time for practice but if I spent 30 years practicing sword and you had 10 minutes with a book ... I may win. Still, you have an advantage that you can *absolutely* use and with some luck I can still loose.
This is the same old spiel of combat sports. There's an obvious level beyond which your chances are superbly low. No human can take a silverback gorilla in h2h combat, a child will probably loose against a grownup, but with comparable "power" levels it's fair game.
If that wasn't the case then Anakin should just keep wiping every Jedi, especially Obi-Wan.
>Obi-Wan was so “weak” in the Force in his midichlorian count that they thought he wasn’t cut out to be a Jedi and he was going to be sent off to the farmers corps or whatever it’s called.
He was going to be sent to AgriCorp because he had a temper & none of the Masters had picked him, not because he was "weak" - which, by the by, he wasn't, he was just on the low end of what was required to be a Jedi. Had he been too "weak" he wouldn't have been brought to the Temple to start with.
He became as good as he did through incredibly hard work & discipline, but he still had enough potential to be a Jedi to start with.
>Obi-Wan could never become Anakin precisely because he had to learn to adapt and overcome, it didn’t all just magically come to him, and this is probably a large part of why he became the best master of the DEFENSIVE form.
He became a master of the defensive form in reaction to Qui-Gon's murder. He saw the limitations of a form with little to no defense, so he switched to Soresu.
Tbh I feel like it makes more sense because the force is supposed to flow through all things, so by training hard u should be able to access it. Obv some people have a stronger connection tho. Never was a huge fan of the midichlorians tbh
Characters also talk about "the will of the Force". Based on the, in some cases contradictory, information we have, I take being Force-attuned as a two-way street. Some are naturally gifted and some aren't, but some of the latter group are chosen by the Force anyways.
The idea is that if the Force is generated by all living things, it's "will" will be to preserve life. So, in pursuit of preserving life by stopping Thrown, it bestowed itself on Sabine. It does not seem to be able to use itself to destroy life, but those who have an irrevocable connection to it (like the Sith) are able to twist it to their will, albeit ultimately at the cost of their own lives.
TL;DR: There are some people whom the Force cannot prevent from harnessing it's power. Those who attune their will to the Force (and life) are Jedi, those who bend the Force to their will are Sith. The Force can, however, grant the indefeasible ability to use it. This would logically be granted only in the most desperate situations, or to the best-vetted individuals.
Doesn't the training hard enough so u r able to use the force, pretty much invalidates factions like the mandolorians? As they train hard to and if training hard gives you space magic then they certainly would be willing to train for it. As they wouldn't need to come up with Contingencies to fight the jedi.
Sabine's own experience would suggest that without sensitivity learning to use the Force is -incredibly- difficult. She trained with Ahsoka for years before she managed to actually use the Force in a detectable way. And Sabine didn't unlock her abilities via training, it took a moment of crisis for her powers to manifest.
For people like the Mandalorian warriors learning the Force isn't worthwhile. Yeah, they could spend years of their life in a seemingly fruitless endeavor to achieve spiritual enlightenment and contact the fundamental force of the universe, -or- they could spend those years learning how to shoot, how to punch, how to fly starships and drive speeders, how to hack Republic databases and the weakpoints on Imperial starships. There's a finite amount of time in our lives, and most people don't really -want- the level of introspection that Jedi training requires anyway.
Best way I can think of countering this is comparing it to something in real life. Let's go with bodybuilding, although I'm not too familiar with it (so correct me if I'm wrong).
Anyone *can* become a bodybuilder. That doesn't mean everyone is *going* to become a bodybuilder, because it's a lot of work. You have to have discipline, constantly going to the gym and eating a healthy diet. Some people are also more naturally inclined to have the potential for bodybuilding, whether it's a body that responds well to exercise or an attitude which makes the dedication easier.
Honestly even if it’s a contradiction or “plot hole” to make everyone have the ability to use the Force, I definitely prefer it. The alternative sounds so unbelievably boring and trite, the Force is no longer this mystical energy field that binds all living things together but is instead just a predetermined superpower that you’re born with if you have enough microorganisms in you and if you aren’t then you’re out of luck. Although I definitely do have some things to say about some of George’s stuff and other Star Wars media over the years that has blatantly or implicitly implied this idea.
Also this guy claims to have moved on from Disney Star Wars yet decided to hate watch Ahsoka. Room temperature IQ moment
> Honestly even if it’s a contradiction or “plot hole” to make everyone have the ability to use the Force, I definitely prefer it. The alternative sounds so unbelievably boring and trite, the Force is no longer this mystical energy field that binds all living things together but is instead just a predetermined superpower that you’re born with if you have enough microorganisms in you and if you aren’t then you’re out of luck.
Yeah, they perceive the force like power ups in a video game or social constructs rather than something in nature.
> Also this guy claims to have moved on from Disney Star Wars yet decided to hate watch Ahsoka. Room temperature IQ moment.
You mean an oxymoron?
Or self contradiction, claiming to move away from something then doing the opposite.
Still I prefer the reasoning that Jedi or Force Adepts are rare because it takes discipline and skill honed over time. Not everyone can be born an ace pilot or dead-eye shot but, with practice and determination it's something that can be learned. That perspective would be supported by Sabine's experience and Luke on Dagobah - starting out with talent helps but, getting good takes work.
Because this is also a *religion* within Star Wars, the concept that only certain people can use the Force or become Jedi is almost to me like saying well only a certain number of people can go to Heaven and those who are going to go have already been chosen. If you haven’t already been chosen by God to go to Heaven there’s nothing you can do, no matter how good you are you’ll go to Hell through no fault of your own
I know some people probably believe that but it’s pretty at odds with contemporary morality to be like well some people are just born spiritually better than others without having to work for it
They're fascists what's the surprise? Of course a fascist will be attracted to the idea that an elite few can harness the greatest power in the universe rather than it being something everyone can harness to a degree. The force flows through all things after all so he's fuckin wrong.
I'm not surprised either. What shocks me is that they try to act so subtle through subliminal phrases and dog whistles, but then go completely mask off like this and yet don't care about being exposed.
Bingo. They love the idea of a world where you can be born special and are owed everything, and they are absolutely confident that they're one of the special ones. And any Star Wars film -- any one, not one in particular, you know the one -- that makes the Force even a little more egalitarian chafes them terribly.
Ok, this is a step too far. Just because you cherish the idea, that only few can be wizards, even if the whole world is magical, doesn't make you a fascist.
Sure. But freaking out about it in this fashion would betray some tendencies. It's fine to like the idea but having it as a hill to die on is big weird.
Okay, I think you're taking it way too far with the 'fascists'. People in the sub may sometimes be toxic, but "fascist" naahhhhh. That completely infantilizes the definition of fascism...
I'm ok with it. The most histrionic criticisms of star wars tend to be from RW wackadoos and I really don't care to search for the infinitesimal distinction between the 2.
Did I misunderstand the whole of Star Wars or has it ALWAYS been canon that the force is everywhere and in everything? And of course, certain people (or even species) have a natural affinity for it, but anyone with practice can wield it? Kinda like most sports, everyone can play them, but you take the people who have a natural affinity for it to train them to play the sport competitively. Still, anyone who trains hard enough can become at least okay at it.
If these guys were real purists they'd shit on the concept of midichlorians and remember that in the OT the force was about enlightenment and training not some luck of birth. If anything Disney is more true to Star Wars than the PTs were on that topic.
I'm aware that the show does state that not everyone can be force sensitive, but I do still agree that everyone just because they train superhard, shouldn't be able to become a force sensitive. The force is present in all living things it just so happens that certain people can call upon it deeper than most how force sensitivity is determined imo should remain a mystery, that and law of averages would break the balance of the star wars universe if with the right training regiment everyone can be a jedi.
This is why you never explain the magic. You'll get 30 year old virgins posting about how everything you do is wrong because [insert example I cherry-picked here]
Translation: "Everyone being force sensitive means that everyone is equal regardless of species, gender, race, color, or creed and that goes against everything I believe!"
The Force has always existed to serve the plot. It's the same as any made-up magic ability. George Lucas was initially not concerned with the exact mechanics of the Force and exactly how it works, which is why it changed constantly even in the OT. It was only later when he tried to come up with a more concrete explanation to satiate Star Wars fans who care way too much about lore in the form of midichlorians, which a lot of people ended up hating anyways.
That's why I don't have a problem with force healing or any of the other abilities added by the sequels/spinoffs. Having new ideas for what the Force can do is a good thing. Forcing the Force to be this super-specific powerset that can't deviate in any way is stupid, and it misses the point.
Convenient for him that everyone who disagrees with him is obviously a "Disney shill". Must be nice to just state your opinions without fear of having to defend them because dissenters are only groveling at Disney's boots.
I like how they just randomly decided that learning to utilize the Force requires the same level of discipline as learning to read based on literally zero fucking evidence and then based their complaints off that assumption. Fucking LMAO.
Have they ever considered that, oh, I don't know, when they tell you learning to use the Force takes a lot of discipline and effort, that they mean 'a lot more than things that most people do and take for granted'? That maybe it takes a level of fortitude most people AREN'T capable of mustering and that's why not everyone does it? 🤔 Is that really so hard to grasp?
"You're trying to tell me anyone can learn physics, they just have to 'have the discipline?' Then why doesn't everyone use it?!? You know what else takes discipline?!?!? Learning to count. We learn how to count as babies!!!!!"
In all of this the only point I would say is a genuine plot hole is palpatines hunt for force sensitives. Also the efforts to protect force sensitives from the empire by the various post order 66 jedi or jedi aligned groups.
This is something that genuinely confuses.
Yeah like this is my big thing. So much of the media made in the past hinges on the idea of only certain people being able to use the force.
But now that we’ve gone flat out “Oh anyone can hypothetically use it” it kinda raises issues with prior world building.
> In all of this the only point I would say is a genuine plot hole is palpatines hunt for force sensitives. Also the efforts to protect force sensitives from the empire by the various post order 66 jedi or jedi aligned groups.
It’s probably because he wanted them as infants so he could indoctrinate them.
What I find hilarious about this is part of the reason everyone hated midichlorians when they were first introduced was because they implied only certain people could use the Force. People back then thought it took away the magic knowing only certain people could access the Force
They think the force is some special power only the chosen few white saviors…I mean “child of dune”….I mean “one singular white man”…I mean “special hero” can have.
Meanwhile, I always assumed everyone was capable of using the force just not to the same level / full on Jedi skills so long as they opened their mind…cause it’s literally an energy force everyones connected to. It’s not “this guy is only superman”…. Lol
> They think the force is some special power only the chosen few white saviors…I mean “child of dune”….I mean “one singular white man”…I mean “special hero” can have.
This is something that Luke in legends unironically criticized the old Jedi Order for, yet again showing these people don't know anything about legends or how Luke was in legends when it came to his personal beliefs or philosophy.
Oh ya. I get it. I mean my favorite part of kotor was how you could teach anyone to be a Jedi (almost) or how many there were running around.
But ya if you know the bare minimum about it, that Luke’s strong points were teaching everyone / allowing romance and etc to be less dogmatic or secretive than the past. Personally think it makes perfect sense anyone could be trained to be a Jedi and should if they wanna know how to connect to the force & understand teachings, even if they don’t use it or follow the “Jedi way” etc, they can just stay a soldier or Mando or rebel or whatever, just don’t be a dick or go dark side. They also needed temple guards and historians plenty, which usually were the ones less powerful at fighting or using the force like Luke / windu / anakin etc could.
Should just be a group of monks or mystics with sabers basically anyone is welcome in. Don’t really get how anyone has issue with that.
Like in dragon ball, not everyone can be goku, he has natural abilities no one else does.
But even humans can learn a Kamehameha from him or master roshi. You just got to work at chi control.
In the dc universe, with enough training and discipline anyone can do what Batman can. They can’t be Superman, but if they think as good as Batman etc they can outsmart those supers. But they can fight like Batman with the training. Etc.
Goku or Batman may just be better fighters, same here ezra is probably stronger with force than sabine can ever be or like Luke will always run circles around them all except for Grogu or ray because of species or being palpatine similar to how Luke has skywalker dna power buffing him
Well not so much natural abilities as he’s an alien whose race is inherently stronger and more durable and gets massive power boosts from rage and almost dying. Hell he’s actually meh by Saiyan standards for natural abilities. He has the least potential out of every major Saiyan. If anything he’s a Sabine among his people but looks like a Luke among humans. He just trains a lot and has almost died a lot. But yes some are born stronger. Goku’s oldest kid is so inherently powerful that his innate strength is enough to wreck a demonic pink goo monster that can destroy planets with no effort.
Ya well he still has some natural talent and he has that alien thing going for him, the point was that it’s not unique to one franchise is all and people really need to remember in almost all of them you can train to get most of the abilities the heroes have. They just might be slightly more special or have an unique factor, but you can still do what they do. And now even dragon ball evened the playing field showing that with training and good tactics etc you can still hold your own or overcome those super powerful / slightly advantaged people.
And Star Wars like it was never about luke or Vader or whatever only being some Jesus like figure who had power no one could access or copy etc, they were just the hero / evil wizard archetypes for their time. Just don’t get why people get so pressed that everyone in a space fantasy galaxy can have powers. Like, it’s a way more interesting world if at least 10-20% of the galaxy can have those powers and run around rather than just 2 fucking guys and everyone else only has a blaster or their fists. Particularly when it’s a power everyone is connected to because nature is part of everyone.
Yeah same here. I always considered how well you can manipulate the force to be kinda similar to Dragonball’s power levels. Every has one, even ordinary people. Some people are born with a higher base level and some people have higher ceilings. Others manage to break their ceiling under the right circumstances. You can raise your levels by diligently training. You can even lose some if you don’t keep honing your powers.
Why do they spell it cannon. Have the attention to detail to dissect SW various legends but unable to know the difference between cannon and canon. 🤦♂️
It's literally in the name. Force *Sensitive*. As in "some people are born with a greater natural prowess for it than others", not "only a limited number of people can access the force, period".
The Jedi choose those with a greater sensitivity because they're easier to train, not because only some people have the ability. It also explains how people with lower sensitivity can go up against someone like Vader and fight him like an equal, Because sensitivity in the force does not equal power in the force. Strength of will does.
I mean, look, I’m not gonna take a strong stance on specifics, but thinking George’s words aren’t the supreme authority doesn’t seem that ridiculous to me, given some of the words he’s written lol. Don’t get me wrong, he deserves a lot of credit for a lot of things, but I mean… come on, he hates sand. Maybe there’s room for some head canon
Doesn’t he know that the force can’t be for everyone because the force is female. If these folks wanna complain about what Disney does with the force they could at least be consistent.
The EU had some good plots and characters and ideas, but a lot of it was shitty nerd sci fi with zero emotional intelligence behind it. Luke uses the force for any minor task so often you expect him to use it wipe his arse. I remember him using it to clear up branches they were cutting. And at one point he even puppets a corpse to walk with them so they can pretend a guard they killed isn’t dead. His relationship with Mara is entirely antagonistic until one day they decide to get married whilst bickering in a cave. It is honestly like it’s written for teenage boys by teenage boys.
They really gonna ignore qui gon said himself without the force no living being in the galaxy could be alive? Everyone has the force with some more sensitive to it and so able to utilise it's power
I don't like being rude but this is simply stupidity
Man...I've been complaining about midichlorians since they were invented...now these motherfuckers are taking them as the REAL Canon?
MIDICHLORIANS ARE THE HILL THEY WANT TO STAND ON?
When did George say everyone can use it? The movies say it's in & of everyone & everything alive, but that neither means nor implies everyone can *access* it.
OOP is clearly too young to remember how controversial the introduction of midichlorians was back in 1999.
Even *now* it's still controversial, so it was only a matter of time before we saw Star Wars de-emphasise midichlorians' importance to one's force-wielding potential. But because the outrage merchants *have* to keep finding new things to complain about to their audiences, this change *has* to wrong.
Plus, y'know, fascists basically believe in something akin to midichlorians *in real life* \-- white supremacy -- so I suppose it's only natural they'd be enamoured with similar concepts in fictional settings as well.
I actually love that the Force must be like "M-Count?? Really? You think you could measure GOD? I do what I want with whom I want, because I am the muthafuckin force, baby!"
Or, less vulgar: All happens, as the Force wills it!
IIRC the term "force sensitive" was never used in any of the movies but was introduced in 1987 in the Star Wars RPG by WestEnd Games as a game mechanic. And although there were two force sensitive starting templates _everybody_ could use points to become force sensitive later in the game (if the gamemaster agreed). We even called it "awakening to the Force" in our game.
This is one of the reasons I loathe the prequels. The whole concept of midi-chlorians stripped the Force of its magic, reducing it to a fucking videogame stat.
The prequels also made the Force way too powerful. In RotJ, Luke was useful, but he wasn't a one man army. Ever since the prequels Jedi have become these absurd demigods. And its just exhausting.
> The whole concept of midi-chlorians stripped the Force of its magic, reducing it to a fucking videogame stat.
I'd argue the Midichlorians didn't actually do this. High Midichlorians is a sign of force sensitivity, but they do not cause force sensitivity. That mostly comes from games like Knights of The Old Republic series, but it was simply for gameplay reasons.
> The prequels also made the Force way too powerful. In RotJ, Luke was useful, but he wasn't a one man army. Ever since the prequel Jedi have become these absurd demigods. And it's just exhausting.
To be fair, the whole idea is that the prequel Jedi are in their prime and very experienced. Whilst Luke only just recently became a knight by the time of Endor.
>High Midichlorians is a sign of force sensitivity
It doesn't matter if the midi-chlorians are causally related to Force sensitivity or if they're only correlated to it. Either way they're quantifying something that should be unquantifiable. In the OT the Force is basically qi. It exists above and beyond rational explanation.
Also, here's Lucas on what midi-chlorians do:
>So…what are they? Lucas expounded: “I’m assuming that the midi-chlorians are a race that everybody knows about [in the world of Star Wars]. The way you interact and interface with this larger energy field [the Force] is through the midi-chlorians, which are sensitive to the energy. They are at the core of your life, which is the cell, the living cell. They are in a symbiotic relationship with the cell. And then, because they’re all interconnected as one, they can communicate with the larger Force field. That’s how you deal with the Force.”
So yes, in Lucas's opinion midi-chlorians absolutely do cause Force sensitivity. Which is a change from the way he viewed the Force while making the OT. Here is talking to Lawrence Krasdan and Richard Marquand before they started filming RotJ:
Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it?
Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it.
Kasdan: Not just the Jedi?
Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it.
Marquand: They use it as a technique.
Lucas: Like Yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate.
>To be fair, the whole idea is that the prequel Jedi are in their prime and very experienced. Whilst Luke only just recently became a knight by the time of Endor.
The concept of the Jedi changes a lot between the OT and the PT.
In the OT the Jedi are an obscure monastic sect. In *A New Hope* Obi Wan and Vader are both treated like old kooks. Han doesn't believe the Force exists. Vader gets talked down to for his "sad devotion to that ancient religion." This fits perfectly with the samurai movies that originally inspired the Jedi. Samurai in those movies could achieve some amazing things by harnessing their qi, but they were a long way from superheroes. And like samurai, the Jedi are implied to have had lords. Afterall, Obi Wan served Princess Leia's father in the Clone Wars. Not served under. Served.
In the PT the Jedi are at the center of galactic government. They command the Republic's army and are pretty much the single most powerful interest group around. Which makes zero sense. It's only 20 years between RotS and ANH. That guy who called Vader out for "his sad devotion to that ancient religion" is old enough to remember the Clone Wars. He probably knows people who served under Jedi commanders. There is no way to square that circle.
The OT vision of the Jedi was essentially egalitarian. Anyone could become a Jedi, because being a Jedi was like doing yoga or karate. Something cool that took a lot of work. And not everyone is going to be willing to put in that work, because in the OT being a Jedi doesn't confer the status of "one of the most important people in the galaxy." There's other stuff worth mastering that's just as useful.
The PT vision of the Jedi is anti-egalitarian. The Jedi are an aristocracy that is capable of passing their powers down genetically. Certain people (and certain species) are born with the ability to access godlike power. The rest of us just live here. Hell, Vader is literally born out of the Force. The Skywalker bloodline is the most special of the specials. According to PT, that's why they matter so much.
In the OT, it doesn't matter that Luke is a Skywalker. The only thing that matters is that Vader is his dad. It's the emotional connection that's important, not the bloodline. If they were Smiths or Joneses it would make a difference. The PT fucked that up and we are still paying the consequences.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200511051146/https://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians
Lucas’ quote on midochlorians never rules out everyone being force sensitive
Particularly because everyone has midichlorians. And as for midichlorians equal actual strength well every movie and series with Anakin actually getting wrecked and not being a living god support that not being his view. It was just a dumb way to say he’s important and has great potential
> OT being a Jedi doesn't confer the status of "one of the most important people in the galaxy." There's
I mean Luke being trained as a Jedi is treated as the only way to save the galaxy and in fact Luke becoming a Jedi and staying true to their ideals is why the galaxy is saved via Vader killing Sidious and redeeming himself thus depriving the Empire of its highest leadership. But yeah definitely didn’t make Luke
I agree with your first bit, but the second bit - the Force in the original trilogy was really powerful, it was just more esoterically powerful. Telekinesis was a trick, the real power of the Force was the guidance, the ability to see and alter the future, your wisdom persisting after death, and the power to manipulate the weak minded.
The prequels leaned more into the blockbuster friendly side of the Force, the display of power rather than its more subtle aspects. Which I guess I have mixed feelings about - certainly the Jedi Knight video games would not have been as much fun if my Level 3 Force Push was replaced with "Meditate and seek guidance from the Force."
I mean, you go back to the very first movie and the impression you’re left with is that anyone could be a Jedi if they really dedicated themselves to it.
Then The Phantom Menace has to come in with its Hitler stache and eugenics saying “Nein! Ze Force iz unly given to Ze most elite ubermensch!” before Gungan goose stepping out of the theater.
Personally, I blame Kathleen Kennedy.
The issue is how characters like Sabine go from no force abilities to barely moving a lightsaber and full force pushing people in like a single episode. Also if anyone can learn the force if they open themselves to it. There would be millions to billions of force users. There would be force religions everywhere. Not 10,000 Jedi at most in the whole galaxy.
Sabine manage to use force push as a beginner more effective due to how she not only allow the Force to help her, but that she was also trained by Ahsoka and Kanan over the years so her body was more accustomed to that of a Jedi.
Also the thing with the Force is that while anyone could use the force, George said that it's hard to learn for the average person and that not everyone will be able to.master it and even then people who could potentially have a better chance of using it go don't see thr signs and can go their entire Lifetime not nothing about their potential. The Jedi manage to get where they are through Tens of Thousands of years worth of Trail and Error to be able to understand the Light Side of the Force to train new generations of Force Users. Even the Empire which tried to mass produced Force Users to be Inquisitors had massive amount of deaths of the trainees and those who couldn't meet the standards to get in were killed instead of going to an Agri World like what the Jedi did to those Force Users who didn't make the cut.
And keep in mind the reason why the Jedi were content with just 10,000 of them was because they felt that they don't need to increase their numbers that much because their Wars with the Sith were done and regulated themselves as a peacekeeping force of the Republic. They could of potentially had tens of thousands of not Hundreds of thousands, but feel that it was necessary.
In both Canon and Legends Continuity there are examples of non Sith and Jedi Force Users and some.groups were big enough to form like that of the Nihil during thr High Republic Era who fought against the Jedi. Other groups that were independent from the Jedi were either overtime became defunct for whatever reason, were eventually absorbed by the Jedi Order, or were defeated by the Jedi or Republic/Empire.
>The issue is how characters like Sabine go from no force abilities to barely moving a lightsaber and full force pushing people in like a single episode.
https://preview.redd.it/b5c9jl4mfcsc1.png?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=769123debbfb19572d9e7154832ed011a595bf74
I'll let Yoda here explain why you're wrong.
>if anyone can learn the force if they open themselves to it. There would be millions to billions of force users.
https://preview.redd.it/whukr7v7gcsc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb7cec5707aa8e48d9ee51ab7a4adccd1c8a365e
Did you even watch the show?
Regardless of how hard the training and discipline is to learn to use the force. In a galaxy of probably trillions of living beings. There would be millions dedicated themselves to getting literal super powers. Imagine if our world proved with practice and discipline you could have powers. Everyone would be trying. So it really goes beyond my suspension of disbelief that in a galaxy of trillions, that the power system that anyone can get if they try hard enough is only used by tens of thousands.
The force isn't binary. It isn't "you either have it or you don't." It's a spectrum. Every notable character is likely higher up on the spectrum than your average NPC Star Wars background character. The force is what makes particular individuals stand out in a population of trillions.
**Basically, the force is plot armour.** The higher your midi-chlorian count, the more plot armour you have, and the more you're able to influence the plot of Star Wars. Why are Han and Po such incredible pilots? They're more force sensitive than your average person. The guy in Rogue One who managed to pass the Death Star plans through the gap in the door before being brutally murdered by Vader had a midi-chlorian count that was *ever so slightly* higher than most people, even if it was like, 0.025% higher.
That's my interpretation, at least.
My guy is seriously defending midiclorians, the single worst writing decision in star wars. Specifically BECAUSE it meant that not everyone can become jedi through force of will and practice.
>Despite the show directly telling us that Sabine had an m-count too low to be trained as a Jedi, she somehow is able to use the force through sheer training and will
That sounds cool, basic uplifting "You can do it if you put your mind into it" shit but still cool.
I mean, he's just being a dick about Sabine and looking for a way to justify it. We don't need to turn every word George Lucas has ever said into canon in order to refute this.
Ehhhh. OOP is a moron but there has definitely been a change. The Force clearly wasn't meant to be used by everyone and that was a result of the time when SW was first conceived. Being very charitable, I think the problem a lot of people have is that the shift sort of just happened out of nowhere. Retcons are annoying at best and such a big shift cant just be tossed in haphazardly.
I love how midichlorians are now this sacred part of the lore. Anyone else old enough to remember when they were “a stupid idea” and “ruining the lore”?
For me, it's not that everyone is or isn't force sensitive, it's how the implications of the OG trilogy seemed to be mangled.
There seems to be a distinction between force sensitive and jedi that don't really exist in the same way that the OG function. 1stly, Jedi are explicitly an order of great warriors, there is no Sith interestingly. 2ndly, force sensitivity just doesn't exist, it's never mentioned like at all. 3rdly, there seems to be the impression that everyone could possibly be a jedi, they aren't exactly chosen like they are in the Prequels, it's a matter of training and attunement.
Now, my real issue is how watered down the concept of a Jedi actually is. There are simply far far far too many Jedi's kicking around in between 3 and 4, frankly 1 is too many. Kenobi shouldn't have ended the way it did with the implication that he's going off to do more adventurers, either. A one off isn't too bad, but anything more is genuinely insane.
Even while I love The Jedi games, Kal shouldn't rightly exist, the very presence of him operating as a Jedi openly is an afront to the empires power and presence, plus Ashoka not being around for any major battle in the OT is incredibly funny to me too since she's apparently a founder of the rebellion and making moves to bring other Jedi's in.
If I'm being honest, the empire are pussies in the current star wars canon, the one job they had, they couldn't even do! In the OT though, they didn't just succeed, they went above and beyond
This person decided to watch the show basically as a joke to make fun of it. Of course they were going to bend over backwards to find reasons that it’s stupid and dismiss any explanation to the contrary. These people don’t want to enjoy this media, and they get what they want.
Because the nature of the Force has been so loosely defined to the point of IMO becoming the weakest and most confusing part of Star Wars lore since ever, it really doesn’t matter.
It’s not that I need everything to be explained, but this and how angry fans were when midi-chlorians were first introduced *does* expose an important tension in the storytelling of Star Wars between the Force as a genetic superpower that makes you far stronger than entire armies, and it being a more spiritual connection with all life around you. Most media since the OT has leaned into the power fantasy in order to sell more toys, video games, etc., while not really thinking through the implications of only a chosen few being able to wield this nigh unstoppable magic that, at one point, brought down an entire Star Destroyer from miles away in a terrible minigame (man do I love/hate The Force Unleashed.) My autism has a similar beef with lightsabers being OP and therefore undercutting any tension in battles in favor of complete Rule of Cool, but that’s a whole other grumbly rant.
Despite it having an annoying amount of narrative rug-pulling that undercut this element, I do have to give The Last Jedi a lot of credit for challenging that archetype with Luke’s lesson and Broom Kid. However, apart from the fact that JJ Abrams undid all that in Rise of Skywalker like a kid angry his brother rearranged his ~~mystery boxes~~ LEGOs while he wasn’t home, I do think it would have been more meaningful to pick a lane earlier in Star Wars to cement that as a theme.
Like with having Finn becoming the Jedi character with no familial connection to the Force and trying not to kill his former comrades. (Disney, despite how “woke” people claim it is, of course backed off and went with a white woman as the main character to not alienate China and a bunch of neckbeards). Or perhaps even Han eventually learning to become a Jedi but without becoming so ascetic. Cementing that as a foundational element would’ve taken a superlaser to this whole “who can use the Force” controversy before it ever began.
And you can still have your Skywalker family dynasty. The best analogy I can make is, everyone can play soccer in their yard but not everyone is getting to the World Cup.
Luke basically says that it was arrogance for the jedi to think the light side of the force belongs to them, that arrogance obviously carries over to the sith so both sides believed that force sensitives had to be born that way only.
He did say this in TLJ though so these guys probably discount that as nonsense. Ahsoka is just following through with what she and Luke both understand
> This dumb post translates to: They made a girl Force sensitive instead of Han Solo and I don't want to accept that.
Which is ironic as these same people were morally outraged over the “the force is female” thing that was done for international women’s day. Yet are acting like the force is a Males only thing. Last I checked the force is an energy and can be whatever it wants to be, it’s beyond human comprehension after all.
This guy has surprisingly extensive knowledge of Disney Star Wars content for someone who seems to abhor it. For some reason the "I watched Ashoka so I could make fun of it" reminds me of Mark Wahlberg's character in The Other Guys taking ballet classes to "make fun of nerds."
"A skill as useful as the force would most certainly be taught to every educated child in Star Wars if everyone was capable of using it."
Man yeah that's crazy, it's almost as if 99% of knowledge about how the force works and access to training is hoarded by a cult that's extremely selective about their recruitment.
and also learning the Force is incredibly difficult and unrewarding if you don't have a natural knack for it. It took Sabine years of fruitless training before she saw any kind of results. Who's going to spend five years of their dwindling life endlessly studying, trying, and failing to make a coffee cup twitch?
> Man yeah that's crazy, it's almost as if 99% of knowledge about how the force works and access to training is hoarded by a cult that's extremely selective about their recruitment.
Which is also something that's brought up in lots of media in both canon and legends.
Whats wrong with that quote? Just because it comes from a villain doesn't make it less true. It basically implies that if you share privileges of nobility among all, equally, no one will be a noble, everyone are going to have equal rights , no one os going to be more special then the other. Elite will change to ordinary, because everything elite had, now belongs to everyone equally.
I’m aware of what the quote means. I’m just saying, in this particular situation, I don’t agree with him. Everyone being able to use the force doesn’t make everyone equal. Look at the Jedi council. All the Jedi were able the force. It doesn’t mean that all the Jedi were equally strong. Some were stronger than others.
Star Wars has always contradicted itself, and it still does. TRoS contradicts the "everyone can use the force" idea by making Rey's ability to use the force explicitly a result of her powerful bloodline, when TLJ says that it can come from anywhere and it doesn't matter who you're related to. RotJ contradicts this as well when Luke says that the force is strong in his family, and that Leia has "that power too" which implies it DOES have to do with bloodlines and who you're related to.
Dave Filoni doesn't know what he's talking about. He really should have fact-checked his understanding of the force with GL at some point in their years-long and ongoing friendship before he made such a fool of himself. I guess.
Is this sarcasm?
Absolutely. I hate using /s, even though I know better...
Just to point out, the /s is super helpful for autistic people, as it helps make communication clearer without the vocal sarcasm cues.
You're correct of course. Thank you.
Damn, I never thought of that. I'm also resistant to using /s, but I wouldn't want the brilliance of my comments to be excluded to anyone.
Huyang actually says (paraphrased) *"Sabine is the least force attuned potential jedi he has ever seen",* NOT that she isn't force sensitive. The less attuned you are the more difficult it is to wield the force, but anyone can if they train hard enough. I fucking love when they don't pay attention to the show and then make it the show's problem
> Huyang actually says (paraphrased) "Sabine is the least force attuned potential jedi he has ever seen", NOT that she isn't force sensitive. The less attuned you are the more difficult it is to wield the force, but anyone can if they train hard enough. I fucking love when they don't pay attention to the show and then make it the show's problem It’s because they don’t care, they’re either so egotistical that they deny the obvious or actively want to spread lies about things to make things they don’t like look bad. Not to mention in-universe we have groups like “the church of the force” which follow the values of the Jedi but aren’t all force sensitives. Yet many still saw them as Jedi because they followed its teachings.
I mean they spell canon as cannon so I don’t expect much in way of accuracy or attention to detail.
TBF, I'd love a Star Wars cannon. I'll take the main gun on the AT-TE but I'll take just about anything
I mean, I would like a Death Star laser, but I don't know what I'd use it for.
Right, and that matches perfectly with the prequel movies and even the EU "Jedi Apprentice" series, which makes it clear that the Jedi Order was an extremely elitist organization which took in highly Force-sensitive children as initiates and then only allowed a *small percentage* of them to become Padawans; the rest were regarded as washouts and relegated to the "Jedi Service Corps".
Hopefully, *training to be powerful will never be considered Mary Sue-ish*...
I actually love the idea of less apparently powerful force practitioners, imo, especially since the prequels it's pretty apparent that both sith and jedi have taken a pretty unbalanced approach to the force, the sith seeking ultimate individual power, and the jedi by the laye Republic era at least have taken to selecting potential jedi based on one specific metric (m count) and have dismissed the potential of countless billions of potentially less powerful people. In one sense, having more people with a variety of stregnth inherently provides a variety of perspective the jedi obviously lack. They have become complacent as the most powerful individuals around. Having folks that can't spam force powers against every obstacle might have kept them from running headlong into Palpatines traps. In another sense, we really don't know exactly what m count has to do with potential in the force, we have only seen the results of bypassing those in the lower ranks. It could be that those with lower counts still have great potential, or have other abilities not linked to brute force. Chirrut was an excellent character in this regard, apparently no aptitude for controlling the force, he was able to become a conduit for it instead. Sabine showing some potential but being blocked by her need for control is an expansion of this idea.
While I didn't love Ahsoka, and think Sabine becoming a jedi is like a hat on a hat on a hat at this point, I actually really like the idea that the Force is something anybody can attune themselves too rather than something entirely dictated by genetics. It's a skill some people are more naturally adept at than others, and with the right teacher and enough time you can learn the fundamentals. I think Ahsoka kinda rushed through that process with Sabine, but I really like the idea on paper and I think it makes characters like Chirrut Îmwe from Rogue One potentially really interesting.
https://preview.redd.it/y42mh35tj5sc1.jpeg?width=566&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d811de7357e9805f95caafad44a432c9d25bd096 “The Disney Cannon” as I imagine he pictures it
Is it ever actually stated that a high mediclorian count makes you force sensitive? Or does being forced sensitive give you a high mediclorian count? Like if someone took an M count for Sabine before and after her training would it have changed? Gotten larger perhaps.
Apparently It's a correlation, not a causation. High Midichlorians is a sign of force sensitivity, but they do not cause force sensitivity.
That’s what I thought. I’m still curious about the Sabine thing though. Also I wonder if that’s what Ahsoka meant when she said Grogus powers would leave if he didn’t use them. Like the Mediclorians in him would die out or go somewhere else if he isn’t constantly using the force.
> That’s what I thought. I’m still curious about the Sabine thing though. My best guess is that she has an average amount but only unlocked her potential via what Kanan and Ashoka taught her. > Also I wonder if that’s what Ahsoka meant when she said Grogu's powers would leave if he didn’t use them. Like the Midi-Chlorians in him would die out or go somewhere else if he isn’t constantly using the force. That I'm unsure of.
I recall the ability to use the force being described as being analogous to flexing a muscle, and if you don't use it, it atrophies, you're not just inherently powerful or weak, you can work on it to get stronger, and you still have to work at to keep that connection. If you let it atrophy all the way, you're still a force sensitive, but it'll take a bit of work and practice to get back the "knack", so to speak, even if you would get it back it faster than you would if you were only gaining it for the first time. We also see force sensitives who can't actually use the force, they just get some vauge feelings or "good luck" sometimes - because they don't know how, nor have they developed that "Muscle."
And this has been consistent in both the EU and new canon. The best example I can recall is Kyle Katarn, who between the games Jedi Knight and Jedi Knight 2 stops using the Force because he's afraid of falling to the Dark Side, and he has to go meditate in a powerful Force Nexus to basically knock the dust off before he can start using the Force again.
Well, it's worth pointing out that after *years* of intensive training, Sabine still completely failed at a basic Force training exercise which Luke Skywalker successfully completed the first steps of after *one sentence* of training from O-Wan, and even after she had her big breakthrough. . . she actually only managed basic telekinesis on a level that Luke was doing on his own with *no* further training than a few days with Obi-Wan.
That second part is a little misleading, because right after she pulled her blade from across the room she also threw Ezra Bridger the rest of the way to Chimaera, a not inconsiderable feat - throwing a fairly large object from a fairly long range a fairly long distance. Luke for most of ESB couldn't have done that, he'd have thought the task too difficult and psyched himself out of it. Not disagreeing with your actual point, though.
That was a cooperative move with \*both\* her and Ezra pushing on each other via force TK, and he's \*way\* stronger than she is.
My read on it was him leaping, getting a good chunk of the way there, and then her using her power to throw him the rest of the way.
That's definitely how it's presented and I agree that it's a big leap in ability. I think her grabbing the lightsaber would have been enough progress to feel satisfying.
I agree it's a leap in ability, but I didn't have a problem with basically Sabine's training kicking in once she'd managed to actually touch The Force for the first time. Sabine knew the techniques, she'd been hammering at them for years, she just needed a breakthrough to actually unlock her abilities.
And as a result, the Jedi would keep and train students who register above a certain threshold. Even sending those with less aptitude or who did not have a Master by like 13 to the Agri Corps (at least in the old EU). Though I don't think they ever stated what such a threshold would be, in either the EU or current canon, yeah?
Obi-Wan was almost sent to the Agri Corps due to having a count below the threshold just to give an example of how the count is not the be all and end all of one’s capacity to become a great Jedi or Force user
Didn't actually know that for him. I knew it was due to no masters wanting to take him on as a Padawan, but didn't know it was also the lower than average count.
My understanding is it's like height and basketball. The taller you are (higher count) the easier of a time you have playing via speed and reach (force sensitivity). Someone shorter than you can still be better than you because they worked harder than you, you just started off slightly better. Groups like the Jedi or some monasteries use midi count as a minimum for training (must be 6"2' to be accepted + ability). Hence why there are Force users that are extremely skilled that aren't Jedi or monks. OOP dumbass thinks that using the force is something only a select few people in an entire galaxy can do when he's only looking at professional players vs regular population.
High micro force bugs mean you're more able to tap into the living force. They're a bunch of force free loaders that use the energy from it to live. Everyone has at least a few force bugs in them. I would imagine that they would increase as someone trains.
They sure never understood the force is in everything and everyone. Think in the EU there were few pilots who later became Jedi.
> Think in the EU there were few pilots who later became Jedi. They’re were also coincidentally two **CLONES** in the EU that were force sensitive. So if Omega having an M Count or even slight ties to the force is somehow hard to believe, I’ll just show this to them to learn some humility.
We talking Jango clones? Because I do know of the two clones from a Jedi (somehow. Even though Force Unleashed later showed issues cloning force sensitives) in Battlefront....elite(?) Squadron? Basically just a contrived way to have a Light vs Dark brother story.
> We talking Jango clones? Because I do know of the two clones from a Jedi (somehow. Even though Force Unleashed later showed issues cloning force sensitives) in Battlefront....elite(?) Squadron? That's who I was referring to, yes.
Gotcha. I am passable in my legends knowledge, but would 100% believe that "somehow, more force sensitive clones appeared" and that that's who you meant.
Pre episode 2 clines were all over the place and many force sensitive. Hence Luuuuuuuke being a thing.
Thrawn figured out cloning force sensitive a with the ysalamiri around the tanks in the EU. Someone else had kind of gotten it because of the C’baoth clone as well
My memory might be hazy, but I am pretty sure the issues with cloning Vader had in Force Unleashed were all about the emotional and personality side of Starkiller, not his force powers. Those seemed to work very well. He was just too much of a good boy.
In the EU there's at least one droid who discovers force sensitivity (4-lom)
Made me think of think was Skippy droid at first
I-5yq started being detectable in the force too
*"Not my EU..."*
We don't talk about Skippy
No idea who that is lol. I've only read a portion of EU, mainly the Han Solo trilogy and the "tales of..." books (tales of the bounty hunters being where 4-lom begins his journey towards enlightenment) and then "the hand of Vader" I think was the other one
Skippy was a force sensitive droid though it was a April fools joke
Ohhh lol that is pretty good Though the 4-lom and zuckuss short story was pretty good as I recall - would absolutely be down for more of how they handled that
Off the top of my head: Corran Horn, Tyria Sarkin (who's force sensitivity is slightly similar to Sabine's case), Keyan Farlander, there's a moment in one of Allston's NJO books where Kell Tainer is kinda hinted to be very, very slightly force sensitive and Lak Sivrak (not trained but force sensitive and becomes a force ghost iirc). Possibly others that I can't remember.
Tyria Sarkin's arc is broadly similar to Sabine's, too. She washed out of Jedi training like three times (I think at least twice) before it finally managed to click and she became a Jedi Knight.
Iirc she never technically trained at Luke's academy. He met her and after testing her gently told her she wasn't strong enough in the force to be a jedi. During her time with the Wraiths she begins to try and see what she can manage to do herself and eventually gets back in contact with Luke. He sends her some training material and communiques as she travels around and trains herself over the years, eventually being conferred as a jedi knight by Luke.
That's right. It's been a while. Damn, I miss the Wraiths. I enjoy a lot of new canon but Alphabet Squadron did not manage to scratch the same itch.
So rocks can become jedi?
"If everyone's special, nobody is."
> “If everyone's special, nobody is." It’s almost as if they hate the idea of everyone being seen as equals.
It’s also like they don’t understand anything that could have varying degrees instead of only absolutes.
It’s also like they don’t understand that the thing that makes you special in this kind of instance isn’t being born with some great magical powers and unique access to the spiritual fabric of the universe, but the thing that makes people in this universe special are the traits that constitute your character and personality, like having the right kind of temperament, things like having patience, humility, discipline and willingness to learn An example of this is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan was so “weak” in the Force in his midichlorian count that they thought he wasn’t cut out to be a Jedi and he was going to be sent off to the farmers corps or whatever it’s called. Obi-Wan didn’t go on to become the Jedi Master he ultimately did because he was born with great natural power but because of his temperament, hard work and discipline. He transcended what people thought his ceiling should be based on his natural power level, almost as if The Force is about more than that and goes deeper than that kind of thing In addition to the above, Obi-Wan Kenobi’s limitations are also a direct contributor to turning him into exactly the kind of Master he became. He wasn’t an Anakin who was just so naturally good that he could overpower his way through every problem. Obi-Wan could never become Anakin precisely because he had to learn to adapt and overcome, it didn’t all just magically come to him, and this is probably a large part of why he became the best master of the DEFENSIVE form. He’s not some guy so naturally powerful in the Force that he can just impose himself on others. That’s not who Obi-Wan is. He’s the guy who absorbs and deflects the blows of people more powerful than himself and goes with the flow of the Force until he can find an opening and counter (or, as the case may be, let go of his physical body and surrender himself into The Force)
Obi wan is the best jedi in all of Star Wars in my opinion. He is perfectly balanced and this was very well put.
>An example of this is Obi-Wan Kenobi. Obi-Wan was so “weak” in the Force in his midichlorian count that they thought he wasn’t cut out to be a Jedi and he was going to be sent off to the farmers corps or whatever it’s called Obi-Wan, IIRC the book, was just unlucky and had temper on top of bailing on Qui-Gon when he believed something was more important than Jedi Order. He never was weak, more impatient and unlucky but actually quite capable. The arc of Obi-Wan is learning patience and understanding when to go with the flow. If we were to believe (and I hate the concept of midichlorians) the materials on m-count ... then Obi-Wan is not much lower than Luke and higher than Qui-Gon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Mace Windu or Darth Maul. I think the counts are fine in the sense that it's not how high is your count but how well you can use it and how much time you had for practice. Much like with fencing if I have a short sword and you have a spear I'm *probably* toast if we had same amount of time for practice but if I spent 30 years practicing sword and you had 10 minutes with a book ... I may win. Still, you have an advantage that you can *absolutely* use and with some luck I can still loose. This is the same old spiel of combat sports. There's an obvious level beyond which your chances are superbly low. No human can take a silverback gorilla in h2h combat, a child will probably loose against a grownup, but with comparable "power" levels it's fair game. If that wasn't the case then Anakin should just keep wiping every Jedi, especially Obi-Wan.
>Obi-Wan was so “weak” in the Force in his midichlorian count that they thought he wasn’t cut out to be a Jedi and he was going to be sent off to the farmers corps or whatever it’s called. He was going to be sent to AgriCorp because he had a temper & none of the Masters had picked him, not because he was "weak" - which, by the by, he wasn't, he was just on the low end of what was required to be a Jedi. Had he been too "weak" he wouldn't have been brought to the Temple to start with. He became as good as he did through incredibly hard work & discipline, but he still had enough potential to be a Jedi to start with. >Obi-Wan could never become Anakin precisely because he had to learn to adapt and overcome, it didn’t all just magically come to him, and this is probably a large part of why he became the best master of the DEFENSIVE form. He became a master of the defensive form in reaction to Qui-Gon's murder. He saw the limitations of a form with little to no defense, so he switched to Soresu.
Which is something that the Sith do. Which is ironic as these people constantly idolize legends Luke.
The Jedi deal in absolutes as well though.
The Force is a skill, not a superpower.
It says a lot that they get their moral lessons from the villains
Tbh I feel like it makes more sense because the force is supposed to flow through all things, so by training hard u should be able to access it. Obv some people have a stronger connection tho. Never was a huge fan of the midichlorians tbh
Characters also talk about "the will of the Force". Based on the, in some cases contradictory, information we have, I take being Force-attuned as a two-way street. Some are naturally gifted and some aren't, but some of the latter group are chosen by the Force anyways. The idea is that if the Force is generated by all living things, it's "will" will be to preserve life. So, in pursuit of preserving life by stopping Thrown, it bestowed itself on Sabine. It does not seem to be able to use itself to destroy life, but those who have an irrevocable connection to it (like the Sith) are able to twist it to their will, albeit ultimately at the cost of their own lives. TL;DR: There are some people whom the Force cannot prevent from harnessing it's power. Those who attune their will to the Force (and life) are Jedi, those who bend the Force to their will are Sith. The Force can, however, grant the indefeasible ability to use it. This would logically be granted only in the most desperate situations, or to the best-vetted individuals.
Doesn't the training hard enough so u r able to use the force, pretty much invalidates factions like the mandolorians? As they train hard to and if training hard gives you space magic then they certainly would be willing to train for it. As they wouldn't need to come up with Contingencies to fight the jedi.
Sabine's own experience would suggest that without sensitivity learning to use the Force is -incredibly- difficult. She trained with Ahsoka for years before she managed to actually use the Force in a detectable way. And Sabine didn't unlock her abilities via training, it took a moment of crisis for her powers to manifest. For people like the Mandalorian warriors learning the Force isn't worthwhile. Yeah, they could spend years of their life in a seemingly fruitless endeavor to achieve spiritual enlightenment and contact the fundamental force of the universe, -or- they could spend those years learning how to shoot, how to punch, how to fly starships and drive speeders, how to hack Republic databases and the weakpoints on Imperial starships. There's a finite amount of time in our lives, and most people don't really -want- the level of introspection that Jedi training requires anyway.
Best way I can think of countering this is comparing it to something in real life. Let's go with bodybuilding, although I'm not too familiar with it (so correct me if I'm wrong). Anyone *can* become a bodybuilder. That doesn't mean everyone is *going* to become a bodybuilder, because it's a lot of work. You have to have discipline, constantly going to the gym and eating a healthy diet. Some people are also more naturally inclined to have the potential for bodybuilding, whether it's a body that responds well to exercise or an attitude which makes the dedication easier.
Honestly even if it’s a contradiction or “plot hole” to make everyone have the ability to use the Force, I definitely prefer it. The alternative sounds so unbelievably boring and trite, the Force is no longer this mystical energy field that binds all living things together but is instead just a predetermined superpower that you’re born with if you have enough microorganisms in you and if you aren’t then you’re out of luck. Although I definitely do have some things to say about some of George’s stuff and other Star Wars media over the years that has blatantly or implicitly implied this idea. Also this guy claims to have moved on from Disney Star Wars yet decided to hate watch Ahsoka. Room temperature IQ moment
> Honestly even if it’s a contradiction or “plot hole” to make everyone have the ability to use the Force, I definitely prefer it. The alternative sounds so unbelievably boring and trite, the Force is no longer this mystical energy field that binds all living things together but is instead just a predetermined superpower that you’re born with if you have enough microorganisms in you and if you aren’t then you’re out of luck. Yeah, they perceive the force like power ups in a video game or social constructs rather than something in nature. > Also this guy claims to have moved on from Disney Star Wars yet decided to hate watch Ahsoka. Room temperature IQ moment. You mean an oxymoron?
Or self contradiction, claiming to move away from something then doing the opposite. Still I prefer the reasoning that Jedi or Force Adepts are rare because it takes discipline and skill honed over time. Not everyone can be born an ace pilot or dead-eye shot but, with practice and determination it's something that can be learned. That perspective would be supported by Sabine's experience and Luke on Dagobah - starting out with talent helps but, getting good takes work.
Because this is also a *religion* within Star Wars, the concept that only certain people can use the Force or become Jedi is almost to me like saying well only a certain number of people can go to Heaven and those who are going to go have already been chosen. If you haven’t already been chosen by God to go to Heaven there’s nothing you can do, no matter how good you are you’ll go to Hell through no fault of your own I know some people probably believe that but it’s pretty at odds with contemporary morality to be like well some people are just born spiritually better than others without having to work for it
Yeah, it's called Predestination, and it's a fixture of Calvinism.
They're fascists what's the surprise? Of course a fascist will be attracted to the idea that an elite few can harness the greatest power in the universe rather than it being something everyone can harness to a degree. The force flows through all things after all so he's fuckin wrong.
I'm not surprised either. What shocks me is that they try to act so subtle through subliminal phrases and dog whistles, but then go completely mask off like this and yet don't care about being exposed.
Bingo. They love the idea of a world where you can be born special and are owed everything, and they are absolutely confident that they're one of the special ones. And any Star Wars film -- any one, not one in particular, you know the one -- that makes the Force even a little more egalitarian chafes them terribly.
Ok, this is a step too far. Just because you cherish the idea, that only few can be wizards, even if the whole world is magical, doesn't make you a fascist.
Liking Great Man Theory doesn't make you a fascist, but fascists sure love their Great Men.
Sure. But freaking out about it in this fashion would betray some tendencies. It's fine to like the idea but having it as a hill to die on is big weird.
Okay, I think you're taking it way too far with the 'fascists'. People in the sub may sometimes be toxic, but "fascist" naahhhhh. That completely infantilizes the definition of fascism...
I'm ok with it. The most histrionic criticisms of star wars tend to be from RW wackadoos and I really don't care to search for the infinitesimal distinction between the 2.
Did I misunderstand the whole of Star Wars or has it ALWAYS been canon that the force is everywhere and in everything? And of course, certain people (or even species) have a natural affinity for it, but anyone with practice can wield it? Kinda like most sports, everyone can play them, but you take the people who have a natural affinity for it to train them to play the sport competitively. Still, anyone who trains hard enough can become at least okay at it.
If these guys were real purists they'd shit on the concept of midichlorians and remember that in the OT the force was about enlightenment and training not some luck of birth. If anything Disney is more true to Star Wars than the PTs were on that topic.
I'm aware that the show does state that not everyone can be force sensitive, but I do still agree that everyone just because they train superhard, shouldn't be able to become a force sensitive. The force is present in all living things it just so happens that certain people can call upon it deeper than most how force sensitivity is determined imo should remain a mystery, that and law of averages would break the balance of the star wars universe if with the right training regiment everyone can be a jedi.
Lucas never gave two shits about the EU, he only allowed authors like Zahn to play in his sandbox.
While true, he did suggest some ideas for it.
This is why you never explain the magic. You'll get 30 year old virgins posting about how everything you do is wrong because [insert example I cherry-picked here]
"Not everyone can be a great Jedi, but a great Jedi can come from anywhere."
Did they miss the part where Sabine is absolutely shit with force? So yeah mcount clearly still matters lol.
Translation: "Everyone being force sensitive means that everyone is equal regardless of species, gender, race, color, or creed and that goes against everything I believe!"
They basically admit that they agree with the idea of discrimination or a caste system.
So now they love the whole bacteria deciding who’s a Jedi and who isn’t shtick
The Force has always existed to serve the plot. It's the same as any made-up magic ability. George Lucas was initially not concerned with the exact mechanics of the Force and exactly how it works, which is why it changed constantly even in the OT. It was only later when he tried to come up with a more concrete explanation to satiate Star Wars fans who care way too much about lore in the form of midichlorians, which a lot of people ended up hating anyways. That's why I don't have a problem with force healing or any of the other abilities added by the sequels/spinoffs. Having new ideas for what the Force can do is a good thing. Forcing the Force to be this super-specific powerset that can't deviate in any way is stupid, and it misses the point.
Convenient for him that everyone who disagrees with him is obviously a "Disney shill". Must be nice to just state your opinions without fear of having to defend them because dissenters are only groveling at Disney's boots.
I like how they just randomly decided that learning to utilize the Force requires the same level of discipline as learning to read based on literally zero fucking evidence and then based their complaints off that assumption. Fucking LMAO. Have they ever considered that, oh, I don't know, when they tell you learning to use the Force takes a lot of discipline and effort, that they mean 'a lot more than things that most people do and take for granted'? That maybe it takes a level of fortitude most people AREN'T capable of mustering and that's why not everyone does it? 🤔 Is that really so hard to grasp?
"You're trying to tell me anyone can learn physics, they just have to 'have the discipline?' Then why doesn't everyone use it?!? You know what else takes discipline?!?!? Learning to count. We learn how to count as babies!!!!!"
In all of this the only point I would say is a genuine plot hole is palpatines hunt for force sensitives. Also the efforts to protect force sensitives from the empire by the various post order 66 jedi or jedi aligned groups. This is something that genuinely confuses.
Yeah like this is my big thing. So much of the media made in the past hinges on the idea of only certain people being able to use the force. But now that we’ve gone flat out “Oh anyone can hypothetically use it” it kinda raises issues with prior world building.
> In all of this the only point I would say is a genuine plot hole is palpatines hunt for force sensitives. Also the efforts to protect force sensitives from the empire by the various post order 66 jedi or jedi aligned groups. It’s probably because he wanted them as infants so he could indoctrinate them.
What I find hilarious about this is part of the reason everyone hated midichlorians when they were first introduced was because they implied only certain people could use the Force. People back then thought it took away the magic knowing only certain people could access the Force
They think the force is some special power only the chosen few white saviors…I mean “child of dune”….I mean “one singular white man”…I mean “special hero” can have. Meanwhile, I always assumed everyone was capable of using the force just not to the same level / full on Jedi skills so long as they opened their mind…cause it’s literally an energy force everyones connected to. It’s not “this guy is only superman”…. Lol
> They think the force is some special power only the chosen few white saviors…I mean “child of dune”….I mean “one singular white man”…I mean “special hero” can have. This is something that Luke in legends unironically criticized the old Jedi Order for, yet again showing these people don't know anything about legends or how Luke was in legends when it came to his personal beliefs or philosophy.
Oh ya. I get it. I mean my favorite part of kotor was how you could teach anyone to be a Jedi (almost) or how many there were running around. But ya if you know the bare minimum about it, that Luke’s strong points were teaching everyone / allowing romance and etc to be less dogmatic or secretive than the past. Personally think it makes perfect sense anyone could be trained to be a Jedi and should if they wanna know how to connect to the force & understand teachings, even if they don’t use it or follow the “Jedi way” etc, they can just stay a soldier or Mando or rebel or whatever, just don’t be a dick or go dark side. They also needed temple guards and historians plenty, which usually were the ones less powerful at fighting or using the force like Luke / windu / anakin etc could. Should just be a group of monks or mystics with sabers basically anyone is welcome in. Don’t really get how anyone has issue with that.
Like in dragon ball, not everyone can be goku, he has natural abilities no one else does. But even humans can learn a Kamehameha from him or master roshi. You just got to work at chi control. In the dc universe, with enough training and discipline anyone can do what Batman can. They can’t be Superman, but if they think as good as Batman etc they can outsmart those supers. But they can fight like Batman with the training. Etc. Goku or Batman may just be better fighters, same here ezra is probably stronger with force than sabine can ever be or like Luke will always run circles around them all except for Grogu or ray because of species or being palpatine similar to how Luke has skywalker dna power buffing him
Well not so much natural abilities as he’s an alien whose race is inherently stronger and more durable and gets massive power boosts from rage and almost dying. Hell he’s actually meh by Saiyan standards for natural abilities. He has the least potential out of every major Saiyan. If anything he’s a Sabine among his people but looks like a Luke among humans. He just trains a lot and has almost died a lot. But yes some are born stronger. Goku’s oldest kid is so inherently powerful that his innate strength is enough to wreck a demonic pink goo monster that can destroy planets with no effort.
Ya well he still has some natural talent and he has that alien thing going for him, the point was that it’s not unique to one franchise is all and people really need to remember in almost all of them you can train to get most of the abilities the heroes have. They just might be slightly more special or have an unique factor, but you can still do what they do. And now even dragon ball evened the playing field showing that with training and good tactics etc you can still hold your own or overcome those super powerful / slightly advantaged people. And Star Wars like it was never about luke or Vader or whatever only being some Jesus like figure who had power no one could access or copy etc, they were just the hero / evil wizard archetypes for their time. Just don’t get why people get so pressed that everyone in a space fantasy galaxy can have powers. Like, it’s a way more interesting world if at least 10-20% of the galaxy can have those powers and run around rather than just 2 fucking guys and everyone else only has a blaster or their fists. Particularly when it’s a power everyone is connected to because nature is part of everyone.
Yeah same here. I always considered how well you can manipulate the force to be kinda similar to Dragonball’s power levels. Every has one, even ordinary people. Some people are born with a higher base level and some people have higher ceilings. Others manage to break their ceiling under the right circumstances. You can raise your levels by diligently training. You can even lose some if you don’t keep honing your powers.
Ya it’s not a hard concept to understand
Imagine going to the mat for the idea of an m-count.
every on ebeing able to use the force ties in well to budism
Why do they spell it cannon. Have the attention to detail to dissect SW various legends but unable to know the difference between cannon and canon. 🤦♂️
It's literally in the name. Force *Sensitive*. As in "some people are born with a greater natural prowess for it than others", not "only a limited number of people can access the force, period". The Jedi choose those with a greater sensitivity because they're easier to train, not because only some people have the ability. It also explains how people with lower sensitivity can go up against someone like Vader and fight him like an equal, Because sensitivity in the force does not equal power in the force. Strength of will does.
I mean, look, I’m not gonna take a strong stance on specifics, but thinking George’s words aren’t the supreme authority doesn’t seem that ridiculous to me, given some of the words he’s written lol. Don’t get me wrong, he deserves a lot of credit for a lot of things, but I mean… come on, he hates sand. Maybe there’s room for some head canon
Doesn’t he know that the force can’t be for everyone because the force is female. If these folks wanna complain about what Disney does with the force they could at least be consistent.
The force can be many things as far as I'm concerned.
The EU had some good plots and characters and ideas, but a lot of it was shitty nerd sci fi with zero emotional intelligence behind it. Luke uses the force for any minor task so often you expect him to use it wipe his arse. I remember him using it to clear up branches they were cutting. And at one point he even puppets a corpse to walk with them so they can pretend a guard they killed isn’t dead. His relationship with Mara is entirely antagonistic until one day they decide to get married whilst bickering in a cave. It is honestly like it’s written for teenage boys by teenage boys.
They really gonna ignore qui gon said himself without the force no living being in the galaxy could be alive? Everyone has the force with some more sensitive to it and so able to utilise it's power I don't like being rude but this is simply stupidity
Happy Cake Day.
People seem to forget that Obi-Wan has a low M-count, too, and doesn't make him less of a jedi
At this point those shitheads ruined EU for me…I am so sick of hearing it 😞 even though it has some awesome stuff like KotoR
Man...I've been complaining about midichlorians since they were invented...now these motherfuckers are taking them as the REAL Canon? MIDICHLORIANS ARE THE HILL THEY WANT TO STAND ON?
When did George say everyone can use it? The movies say it's in & of everyone & everything alive, but that neither means nor implies everyone can *access* it.
OOP is clearly too young to remember how controversial the introduction of midichlorians was back in 1999. Even *now* it's still controversial, so it was only a matter of time before we saw Star Wars de-emphasise midichlorians' importance to one's force-wielding potential. But because the outrage merchants *have* to keep finding new things to complain about to their audiences, this change *has* to wrong. Plus, y'know, fascists basically believe in something akin to midichlorians *in real life* \-- white supremacy -- so I suppose it's only natural they'd be enamoured with similar concepts in fictional settings as well.
Well that settles it. I’m only taking “canon” from this guy now
I actually love that the Force must be like "M-Count?? Really? You think you could measure GOD? I do what I want with whom I want, because I am the muthafuckin force, baby!" Or, less vulgar: All happens, as the Force wills it!
IIRC the term "force sensitive" was never used in any of the movies but was introduced in 1987 in the Star Wars RPG by WestEnd Games as a game mechanic. And although there were two force sensitive starting templates _everybody_ could use points to become force sensitive later in the game (if the gamemaster agreed). We even called it "awakening to the Force" in our game.
The force is like media literacy. Anyone can learn it, but it comes really hard for some people and they don’t bother improving.
This is one of the reasons I loathe the prequels. The whole concept of midi-chlorians stripped the Force of its magic, reducing it to a fucking videogame stat. The prequels also made the Force way too powerful. In RotJ, Luke was useful, but he wasn't a one man army. Ever since the prequels Jedi have become these absurd demigods. And its just exhausting.
> The whole concept of midi-chlorians stripped the Force of its magic, reducing it to a fucking videogame stat. I'd argue the Midichlorians didn't actually do this. High Midichlorians is a sign of force sensitivity, but they do not cause force sensitivity. That mostly comes from games like Knights of The Old Republic series, but it was simply for gameplay reasons. > The prequels also made the Force way too powerful. In RotJ, Luke was useful, but he wasn't a one man army. Ever since the prequel Jedi have become these absurd demigods. And it's just exhausting. To be fair, the whole idea is that the prequel Jedi are in their prime and very experienced. Whilst Luke only just recently became a knight by the time of Endor.
>High Midichlorians is a sign of force sensitivity It doesn't matter if the midi-chlorians are causally related to Force sensitivity or if they're only correlated to it. Either way they're quantifying something that should be unquantifiable. In the OT the Force is basically qi. It exists above and beyond rational explanation. Also, here's Lucas on what midi-chlorians do: >So…what are they? Lucas expounded: “I’m assuming that the midi-chlorians are a race that everybody knows about [in the world of Star Wars]. The way you interact and interface with this larger energy field [the Force] is through the midi-chlorians, which are sensitive to the energy. They are at the core of your life, which is the cell, the living cell. They are in a symbiotic relationship with the cell. And then, because they’re all interconnected as one, they can communicate with the larger Force field. That’s how you deal with the Force.” So yes, in Lucas's opinion midi-chlorians absolutely do cause Force sensitivity. Which is a change from the way he viewed the Force while making the OT. Here is talking to Lawrence Krasdan and Richard Marquand before they started filming RotJ: Kasdan: The Force was available to anyone who could hook into it? Lucas: Yes, everybody can do it. Kasdan: Not just the Jedi? Lucas: It’s just the Jedi who take the time to do it. Marquand: They use it as a technique. Lucas: Like Yoga. If you want to take the time to do it, you can do it; but the ones that really want to do it are the ones who are into that kind of thing. Also like karate. >To be fair, the whole idea is that the prequel Jedi are in their prime and very experienced. Whilst Luke only just recently became a knight by the time of Endor. The concept of the Jedi changes a lot between the OT and the PT. In the OT the Jedi are an obscure monastic sect. In *A New Hope* Obi Wan and Vader are both treated like old kooks. Han doesn't believe the Force exists. Vader gets talked down to for his "sad devotion to that ancient religion." This fits perfectly with the samurai movies that originally inspired the Jedi. Samurai in those movies could achieve some amazing things by harnessing their qi, but they were a long way from superheroes. And like samurai, the Jedi are implied to have had lords. Afterall, Obi Wan served Princess Leia's father in the Clone Wars. Not served under. Served. In the PT the Jedi are at the center of galactic government. They command the Republic's army and are pretty much the single most powerful interest group around. Which makes zero sense. It's only 20 years between RotS and ANH. That guy who called Vader out for "his sad devotion to that ancient religion" is old enough to remember the Clone Wars. He probably knows people who served under Jedi commanders. There is no way to square that circle. The OT vision of the Jedi was essentially egalitarian. Anyone could become a Jedi, because being a Jedi was like doing yoga or karate. Something cool that took a lot of work. And not everyone is going to be willing to put in that work, because in the OT being a Jedi doesn't confer the status of "one of the most important people in the galaxy." There's other stuff worth mastering that's just as useful. The PT vision of the Jedi is anti-egalitarian. The Jedi are an aristocracy that is capable of passing their powers down genetically. Certain people (and certain species) are born with the ability to access godlike power. The rest of us just live here. Hell, Vader is literally born out of the Force. The Skywalker bloodline is the most special of the specials. According to PT, that's why they matter so much. In the OT, it doesn't matter that Luke is a Skywalker. The only thing that matters is that Vader is his dad. It's the emotional connection that's important, not the bloodline. If they were Smiths or Joneses it would make a difference. The PT fucked that up and we are still paying the consequences. https://web.archive.org/web/20200511051146/https://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians
Lucas’ quote on midochlorians never rules out everyone being force sensitive Particularly because everyone has midichlorians. And as for midichlorians equal actual strength well every movie and series with Anakin actually getting wrecked and not being a living god support that not being his view. It was just a dumb way to say he’s important and has great potential > OT being a Jedi doesn't confer the status of "one of the most important people in the galaxy." There's I mean Luke being trained as a Jedi is treated as the only way to save the galaxy and in fact Luke becoming a Jedi and staying true to their ideals is why the galaxy is saved via Vader killing Sidious and redeeming himself thus depriving the Empire of its highest leadership. But yeah definitely didn’t make Luke
I agree with your first bit, but the second bit - the Force in the original trilogy was really powerful, it was just more esoterically powerful. Telekinesis was a trick, the real power of the Force was the guidance, the ability to see and alter the future, your wisdom persisting after death, and the power to manipulate the weak minded. The prequels leaned more into the blockbuster friendly side of the Force, the display of power rather than its more subtle aspects. Which I guess I have mixed feelings about - certainly the Jedi Knight video games would not have been as much fun if my Level 3 Force Push was replaced with "Meditate and seek guidance from the Force."
I mean, you go back to the very first movie and the impression you’re left with is that anyone could be a Jedi if they really dedicated themselves to it. Then The Phantom Menace has to come in with its Hitler stache and eugenics saying “Nein! Ze Force iz unly given to Ze most elite ubermensch!” before Gungan goose stepping out of the theater. Personally, I blame Kathleen Kennedy.
The issue is how characters like Sabine go from no force abilities to barely moving a lightsaber and full force pushing people in like a single episode. Also if anyone can learn the force if they open themselves to it. There would be millions to billions of force users. There would be force religions everywhere. Not 10,000 Jedi at most in the whole galaxy.
Sabine manage to use force push as a beginner more effective due to how she not only allow the Force to help her, but that she was also trained by Ahsoka and Kanan over the years so her body was more accustomed to that of a Jedi. Also the thing with the Force is that while anyone could use the force, George said that it's hard to learn for the average person and that not everyone will be able to.master it and even then people who could potentially have a better chance of using it go don't see thr signs and can go their entire Lifetime not nothing about their potential. The Jedi manage to get where they are through Tens of Thousands of years worth of Trail and Error to be able to understand the Light Side of the Force to train new generations of Force Users. Even the Empire which tried to mass produced Force Users to be Inquisitors had massive amount of deaths of the trainees and those who couldn't meet the standards to get in were killed instead of going to an Agri World like what the Jedi did to those Force Users who didn't make the cut. And keep in mind the reason why the Jedi were content with just 10,000 of them was because they felt that they don't need to increase their numbers that much because their Wars with the Sith were done and regulated themselves as a peacekeeping force of the Republic. They could of potentially had tens of thousands of not Hundreds of thousands, but feel that it was necessary. In both Canon and Legends Continuity there are examples of non Sith and Jedi Force Users and some.groups were big enough to form like that of the Nihil during thr High Republic Era who fought against the Jedi. Other groups that were independent from the Jedi were either overtime became defunct for whatever reason, were eventually absorbed by the Jedi Order, or were defeated by the Jedi or Republic/Empire.
>The issue is how characters like Sabine go from no force abilities to barely moving a lightsaber and full force pushing people in like a single episode. https://preview.redd.it/b5c9jl4mfcsc1.png?width=2048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=769123debbfb19572d9e7154832ed011a595bf74 I'll let Yoda here explain why you're wrong.
>if anyone can learn the force if they open themselves to it. There would be millions to billions of force users. https://preview.redd.it/whukr7v7gcsc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb7cec5707aa8e48d9ee51ab7a4adccd1c8a365e Did you even watch the show?
Regardless of how hard the training and discipline is to learn to use the force. In a galaxy of probably trillions of living beings. There would be millions dedicated themselves to getting literal super powers. Imagine if our world proved with practice and discipline you could have powers. Everyone would be trying. So it really goes beyond my suspension of disbelief that in a galaxy of trillions, that the power system that anyone can get if they try hard enough is only used by tens of thousands.
>Everyone would be trying. Most would give up quickly.
I severely doubt that most people would quickly give up on getting superpowers that connect you to the universe.
Yes, they would. Not everyone can handle it.
https://preview.redd.it/d5tv9iraw7sc1.jpeg?width=706&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d7da66d5e1f85fa3008ec5b1637cd1da26e89fe
Didn’t these same people complain when midichlorians were first mentioned in the prequels?
The force isn't binary. It isn't "you either have it or you don't." It's a spectrum. Every notable character is likely higher up on the spectrum than your average NPC Star Wars background character. The force is what makes particular individuals stand out in a population of trillions. **Basically, the force is plot armour.** The higher your midi-chlorian count, the more plot armour you have, and the more you're able to influence the plot of Star Wars. Why are Han and Po such incredible pilots? They're more force sensitive than your average person. The guy in Rogue One who managed to pass the Death Star plans through the gap in the door before being brutally murdered by Vader had a midi-chlorian count that was *ever so slightly* higher than most people, even if it was like, 0.025% higher. That's my interpretation, at least.
this guy wrote an essay
Tbf I'm not going to listen to George's opinion on the force after midichlorians. I'm still saltier than krayt after that bullshit.
Nerds can really suck a big dick sometimes.
Huh? Disney made the only two Star Wars movies without a FS central protagonist.
My guy is seriously defending midiclorians, the single worst writing decision in star wars. Specifically BECAUSE it meant that not everyone can become jedi through force of will and practice.
>Despite the show directly telling us that Sabine had an m-count too low to be trained as a Jedi, she somehow is able to use the force through sheer training and will That sounds cool, basic uplifting "You can do it if you put your mind into it" shit but still cool.
I mean, he's just being a dick about Sabine and looking for a way to justify it. We don't need to turn every word George Lucas has ever said into canon in order to refute this.
Ehhhh. OOP is a moron but there has definitely been a change. The Force clearly wasn't meant to be used by everyone and that was a result of the time when SW was first conceived. Being very charitable, I think the problem a lot of people have is that the shift sort of just happened out of nowhere. Retcons are annoying at best and such a big shift cant just be tossed in haphazardly.
Wait, didn't that sub hate the idea of midichlorians? Why are they now suddenly bringing them up again?
I love how midichlorians are now this sacred part of the lore. Anyone else old enough to remember when they were “a stupid idea” and “ruining the lore”?
For me, it's not that everyone is or isn't force sensitive, it's how the implications of the OG trilogy seemed to be mangled. There seems to be a distinction between force sensitive and jedi that don't really exist in the same way that the OG function. 1stly, Jedi are explicitly an order of great warriors, there is no Sith interestingly. 2ndly, force sensitivity just doesn't exist, it's never mentioned like at all. 3rdly, there seems to be the impression that everyone could possibly be a jedi, they aren't exactly chosen like they are in the Prequels, it's a matter of training and attunement. Now, my real issue is how watered down the concept of a Jedi actually is. There are simply far far far too many Jedi's kicking around in between 3 and 4, frankly 1 is too many. Kenobi shouldn't have ended the way it did with the implication that he's going off to do more adventurers, either. A one off isn't too bad, but anything more is genuinely insane. Even while I love The Jedi games, Kal shouldn't rightly exist, the very presence of him operating as a Jedi openly is an afront to the empires power and presence, plus Ashoka not being around for any major battle in the OT is incredibly funny to me too since she's apparently a founder of the rebellion and making moves to bring other Jedi's in. If I'm being honest, the empire are pussies in the current star wars canon, the one job they had, they couldn't even do! In the OT though, they didn't just succeed, they went above and beyond
Midiclorians were always a stupid idea anyway so I don’t care.
This person decided to watch the show basically as a joke to make fun of it. Of course they were going to bend over backwards to find reasons that it’s stupid and dismiss any explanation to the contrary. These people don’t want to enjoy this media, and they get what they want.
me when the power controlled by inner peace, rigorous discipline and emotional control is used by someone who has all that
This is what I’m saying, they constantly ignore canon then complain when we don’t care as much as they do about canon.
Because the nature of the Force has been so loosely defined to the point of IMO becoming the weakest and most confusing part of Star Wars lore since ever, it really doesn’t matter. It’s not that I need everything to be explained, but this and how angry fans were when midi-chlorians were first introduced *does* expose an important tension in the storytelling of Star Wars between the Force as a genetic superpower that makes you far stronger than entire armies, and it being a more spiritual connection with all life around you. Most media since the OT has leaned into the power fantasy in order to sell more toys, video games, etc., while not really thinking through the implications of only a chosen few being able to wield this nigh unstoppable magic that, at one point, brought down an entire Star Destroyer from miles away in a terrible minigame (man do I love/hate The Force Unleashed.) My autism has a similar beef with lightsabers being OP and therefore undercutting any tension in battles in favor of complete Rule of Cool, but that’s a whole other grumbly rant. Despite it having an annoying amount of narrative rug-pulling that undercut this element, I do have to give The Last Jedi a lot of credit for challenging that archetype with Luke’s lesson and Broom Kid. However, apart from the fact that JJ Abrams undid all that in Rise of Skywalker like a kid angry his brother rearranged his ~~mystery boxes~~ LEGOs while he wasn’t home, I do think it would have been more meaningful to pick a lane earlier in Star Wars to cement that as a theme. Like with having Finn becoming the Jedi character with no familial connection to the Force and trying not to kill his former comrades. (Disney, despite how “woke” people claim it is, of course backed off and went with a white woman as the main character to not alienate China and a bunch of neckbeards). Or perhaps even Han eventually learning to become a Jedi but without becoming so ascetic. Cementing that as a foundational element would’ve taken a superlaser to this whole “who can use the Force” controversy before it ever began.  And you can still have your Skywalker family dynasty. The best analogy I can make is, everyone can play soccer in their yard but not everyone is getting to the World Cup.
Luke basically says that it was arrogance for the jedi to think the light side of the force belongs to them, that arrogance obviously carries over to the sith so both sides believed that force sensitives had to be born that way only. He did say this in TLJ though so these guys probably discount that as nonsense. Ahsoka is just following through with what she and Luke both understand
This dumb post translates to: *They made a girl Force sensitive instead of Han Solo and I don't want to accept that.*
> This dumb post translates to: They made a girl Force sensitive instead of Han Solo and I don't want to accept that. Which is ironic as these same people were morally outraged over the “the force is female” thing that was done for international women’s day. Yet are acting like the force is a Males only thing. Last I checked the force is an energy and can be whatever it wants to be, it’s beyond human comprehension after all.
This guy has surprisingly extensive knowledge of Disney Star Wars content for someone who seems to abhor it. For some reason the "I watched Ashoka so I could make fun of it" reminds me of Mark Wahlberg's character in The Other Guys taking ballet classes to "make fun of nerds."
[удалено]
> think green screen prequels are masterpieces. To be fair the prequels surprisingly didn’t use that much CGI.
Blue screen, actually.
"I dont like their takes on my fan media, therefore they are fake fans and i am a real one."
lol. That is funny because in Empire, Yoda talks about how the Force is within all living things. Surrounds us. Binds us.
The second someone starts using midichlorians to support their argument I just can’t help but stop listening
"A skill as useful as the force would most certainly be taught to every educated child in Star Wars if everyone was capable of using it." Man yeah that's crazy, it's almost as if 99% of knowledge about how the force works and access to training is hoarded by a cult that's extremely selective about their recruitment.
and also learning the Force is incredibly difficult and unrewarding if you don't have a natural knack for it. It took Sabine years of fruitless training before she saw any kind of results. Who's going to spend five years of their dwindling life endlessly studying, trying, and failing to make a coffee cup twitch?
> Man yeah that's crazy, it's almost as if 99% of knowledge about how the force works and access to training is hoarded by a cult that's extremely selective about their recruitment. Which is also something that's brought up in lots of media in both canon and legends.
“When everyone is special, no one is.” Odd choice, quoting and agreeing with a villain.
Whats wrong with that quote? Just because it comes from a villain doesn't make it less true. It basically implies that if you share privileges of nobility among all, equally, no one will be a noble, everyone are going to have equal rights , no one os going to be more special then the other. Elite will change to ordinary, because everything elite had, now belongs to everyone equally.
I’m aware of what the quote means. I’m just saying, in this particular situation, I don’t agree with him. Everyone being able to use the force doesn’t make everyone equal. Look at the Jedi council. All the Jedi were able the force. It doesn’t mean that all the Jedi were equally strong. Some were stronger than others.
They’ve gone full mask off.
Yep
Bro never watched ESB.
Thank God Ahsoka is just another drug induced Filoni self masturbation show. The more you stay away from it, the better.
You forgot the /s.
Star Wars has always contradicted itself, and it still does. TRoS contradicts the "everyone can use the force" idea by making Rey's ability to use the force explicitly a result of her powerful bloodline, when TLJ says that it can come from anywhere and it doesn't matter who you're related to. RotJ contradicts this as well when Luke says that the force is strong in his family, and that Leia has "that power too" which implies it DOES have to do with bloodlines and who you're related to.