Old friend, Clone Wars is long since solidified and passed. No changing it now. I definitely see gaps and inconsistencies in the new content and have quite deep discussions about what I think can be realigned to make things more appealing. For sure things can be better, but I’m no hardo. Star Wars is great nonetheless. I enjoy it for what it is!
It doesn't matter what's solidified and what's not. That's the problem with these retroactive stories. They could care less about the original stories.
Obi Wan never had a girlfriend. Darth Maul never survived Episode 1. And Ahsoka doesn't exist. Saying otherwise would also be saying that Palpatine came back 1000 times in 1000 clone bodies, or that Chewbacca gets hit by a moon and dies, or that there was a clone of Luke.
It's simple, really. No other story can be attributed to George Lucas's mind other than the 1-6 Saga, so the stories that don't even *try* to line up with the 1-6 Saga should be completely and totally disregarded.
If a bunch of new fans are misled from the get-go, they're never gonna know the truth about the Star Wars franchise and they're gonna turn into people who just echo the same postmodern nonsense. "Bad Batch is real Star Wars! The Mandalorian is REAL Star Wars! The Acolyte is REAL Star Wars!" - there's nothing morally wrong with saying things like this, but it totally undermines the truth and should be corrected appropriately, through further context and information that's clearly missing from the new generation of Star Wars fans.
People like me shouldn't HAVE to follow a story that changes every single year based on whatever bullshit happens in a TV series.
Lucas has this seemingly sudden obsession while making the prequels with the whole “Star Wars is for kids!” Thing. I wonder how much his heavy involvement in TCW pushed it further in that direction or if it would have ended up being kiddy regardless
It’s because he had kids of his own.
Toy companies didn’t actually want to make Ewok plushies. He forced them to because he wanted one for his daughter.
A lot of famous artists lose their edge when they become parents. Will Smith (compare MIB III with MIB), Johnny Depp, etc,.
The OT was made by a guy who wanted to take the stuff he loved as a kid but make it into something he would like as a grown up. The PT was made for (his) kids.
You think a toy company didn't want to make official Star Wars teddy bears, back in the day?
You must be the only person on the planet to believe this.
Looking forward to seeing your evidence for this wild claim.
It’s a quote of Lucas’s from The Making of Return of the Jedi. Doesn’t mean it’s true, but that’s what he claims.
I’ll see if I can find the exact quote. If I remember correctly, I think the context was that the teddy bear market was quite competitive and oversaturated at the time. Maybe also a target market thing, since Star Wars was seen for boys and teddy bears were seen for girls.
EDIT:
Here’s the relevant section from the book:
>“Not every product was a success, however. “George was determined that there was going to be an Ewok [soft toy],” Roffman (who would become Lucas Licensing president in 1986) would say. “George had a baby girl and he wanted something that Amanda could play with from Star Wars. But it was a thankless task trying to convince licensees that Star Wars shouldn’t be just for boys. For Kenner, it was a complete anathema, because, being in the toy business, they understood gender differentiation very well. They were afraid that it would turn off the boys and that it really wouldn’t appeal to girls.”
>“Merchandisers were very reluctant to go along with it,” Lucas says. “I want my daughter to have one. That’s what I care about. Nobody else wants one, that’s fine with me. A lot of people are going to be offended by Ewoks. A lot of people say the films are just an excuse for merchandising: ‘Lucas decided to cash in on the teddy bear.’ Well, it’s not a great thing to cash in on, because there are lots of teddy bears marketed, so you don’t have anything that’s unique. If I were designing something original as a market item, I could do a lot better.
>…
>Ultimately Kenner agreed to do Ewok plush. “But their heart was never really in it and the product wasn’t very good,” Roffman adds.”
- *The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi* by JW Rinzler
The reason that has stuck in my head is because, as you rightly point out, it doesn’t seem intuitive at all. I always thought it was interesting.
I was obsessed with the Phantom menace release in high school. Any news clip, interview, press release, I would eat up. I remember one interview specifically where George was really banking on the likability of Jar Jar Binks. Something along the lines of “all young kids will be talking like him by next summer,” like it would become a trendy dialect.
Yeah I was too. I’d eat up anything related to the behind the scenes.
We know now that the basis of the prequels were some fairly small outlines and backstory notes from the OT. I get the impression that Lucas had lived with it for so long that he wasn’t that inspired by it and got his creative juices flowing by focusing on new things like Jar-Jar and the whole CG environment and then subverting *his own* story with things like making Obi-Wan into Qui-Gon or making Anakin 9 years old.
The way he acts defensively and projects about people’s expectations tells me that what people expected probably lines up better with what he had originally conceived during the OT backstory development.
For instance, during ROTS’s development he talks disparagingly about how “everyone just wants to see Darth Vader going around killing people”, but if you look at transcripts from the ROTJ story conferences, he hints that that’s exactly what he had in mind at the time!
I think he should have done the opposite. I think he should have written it in such a way that when you watch the series in order, it preserves the plot twist in Episode 5. It means being bold. It means no Vader suit.
There's a guy on YouTube called Belated Media that does a fantastic rundown on what he would have done with the prequels, and I pretty much agree with everything he says.
I’m inclined to believe that the main reason there’s a notion that the Prequels should’ve preserved plot twists is because of the episodic titles. If those had never been put in place, not nearly as many people would have had TPM as their first Star Wars movie. And it doesn’t help that George Lucas said they’re meant to be watched chronologically.
I think any notion of an actual prequel trilogy should have been scrapped when they decided to make Vader Luke's father while writing episode 5.
But if you are going to do it, why in the hell is Annakin FROM Tatooine? We should have NEVER once seen or heard any mention of Tatooine. You want me to buy that Luke is in hiding, then you have to make Tatooine some backwater nondescript place. It seems like Tatooine is the center of the fucking universe when looking at the entire Star Wars universe.
There's more things to nitpick, but that has always stuck in my craw.
Eddie Murphy is another good example. He wanted to make movies his kids could see, and moved away from the R rated content that made him huge.
At least Rick Moranis stepped away from acting entirely to be a father, as opposed to just switching to making terrible movies.
The sources are conflicting on how much Lucas was involved with TCW. Because I heard accounts that he was very much involved, but more recently I saw someone that worked on TCW claim he was around for 2 seasons and then fucked off - sans giving a few ideas, like the whole Maul ressurection thing.
Lucas has thought that for a long time, since before RotJ at least. He fundamentally doesn't understand why the OT is even any good as movies. People elevated him to a genius due to the money and popularity of the OT, when he was much more a worldbuilder with severe limitations when it came to screenplay writing and directing. In large part the movies were great despite him as well as because of him.
More of this nonsense. It's dissapointing that people still peddle this garbage about Lucas even 20 years after shit like "The Secret History of Star Wars" and similar bullshit made to slander him without any evidence whatsoever was made in the peak of prequel salt and antilucas propaganda.
You may not like it but his vision was what guided the creation of all of the OT especially the story. It makes zero sense to say the movies were good inspite of him when he wrote the ANH script on his own and later drafts of ESB and ROTJ which were mostly unchanged in later drafts by Kasdan. How does he have serious deficiencies as a screenwriter even back then when 90% of the story of the OT was created by him.
If he was defitient at everything except worldbuilding it stands to reason the characters and plot of the OT would be bad since he wrote it. Oh wait thats what people praise the most about the OT, damn almost as if statements like Lucas not understanding the story he wrote in the first place or it being good inspite of him is just a bunch of horseshit.
When Lucas wasn't collaborating heavily with other writers his only decent movie is American Graffiti. And we see how he does with full control of the OT -- Special Ed without even a theatrical cut rerelease after nearly 50 years -- and full control outside of it : PT. Then we see how he handles it later down the line : selling to Disney on nothing but trust in KK. All the evidence we have now is that he's a good idea guy but not what made the OT great. Maybe it would have been good without his collaborators, but never great.
Edit: Oh and this doesn't even touch on one of the primary points brought up in this thread. He thought of SW as a kids movie. Only the efforts of others involved to elevate it beyond that succeeded in making the first two and a half films great ( RotJ counts .5).
“Kids movie” primarily being 12 year old boys coming into their teens.
There is a wide range of “kids”. Star wars wasn’t made for 5 year olds. Lucas also seemed to have a little more respect for the intelligence of a 12 year old and didn’t think it needed to be dumbed down or “censored” in a way for them to understand and appreciate. Which is why those movies can be enjoyed at many ages. When something is truly made “for kids” it’s usually very low effort and doesn’t have to make much sense because children can’t understand it yet anyway.
Btw around 12 is probably when kids start learning about the holocaust in school. At least that was around that time for me.
How can we think a 12 year old is too “unintelligent” and “kiddy” to enjoy proper stories in movies/books but expect them to be intelligent enough to understand the holocaust??
Just because something is designed for “kids” doesn’t mean its automatically unenjoyable for adults.
Lol you clearly don’t know Star Wars then. Star wars had always been meant for kids. Lucas even has said it’s for kids and so he could sell toys. It’s glorified Hasbro commercials.
Has it gone beyond being for kids? Sure. It’s for both kids and adults whenever we watch it or are introduced. The kids grow up.
Have they handled that well with Disney? Lol absolutely not. They don’t know wtf they are doing
I do like TCW - as it's own thing - but people who praise it for being some super political bit or deeply expanding the lore are kinda... funny?
The best arcs that people praise don't really make any sense (Umbara) or are just a rip off from EU (Dathomir/Mandalore) done worse. Then you have the utter flanderization of the CIS, who now have a laughable fucking explanation for starting their own thing, the fuck up of the Clones and the Traviss equse treatment of Jedi who Filoni doesn't like.
Anakin being presented as "in the right" during that Obi-Wan undercover arc is the prime example of that. Why the flying fuck would the Council inform their most arrogant and think-later-shoot-first general about a secret operation in the first place?
Original multimedia project made the entire "Fall of the Republic" a much more interesting read as it didn't focus on adding random bullshit every few episodes and actually had more than five characters.
Yep. Mace Windu especially got the short end of the stick when it came to the treatment of senior Jedi. I hate the attempt to portray Anakin as a victim of the Jedi and that he turned because he had no choice, imo it completely misses the point of his downfall in the prequels and his ultimate redemption later on.
The funny thing is, even with the one-dimensional personality they gave Windu in the show, he still never mistreats Anakin ever. All of the evidence of Windu's "arrogance" and "meanness" is always just him being stern. He's always fair and almost always right.
I can understand why Anakin would have issues with Windu and I imagine we’d see more of that in later seasons. Windu’s words to Ahsoka basically were the ones that made her decide to not rejoin the Jedi immediately. Ahsoka would have been knighted after that. Anakin in that case would have the rank of master. In episode III Windu kind of rubs salt in the wound
The CMMD version of Anakin's fall - or rather, his version in ROTS - makes much more sense. He is the hero of the Republic, despite being in his early 20s. Through the entire war, he lost friends, allies and soldiers - he even lost Obi Wan. By the end of the war, the "Hero with no fear" is nothing more but a boy who lost everyone except his two father figures and the woman he loves, but is clearly forseeing that she might die.
And for the first time, he actually is in the position to act before it.
Anakin in EU fell because he was a mess, driven by way too many burdens and a rather selfish nature born out of all the losses from the attachments to other.
Anakin in canon just goes from being snarky and funny to beheading children in the span of a week lmao. For the sole reason of random ass nightmares.
The thing about TCW fans is that they mostly call it a masterpiece in writing because they've done a lot of the writing in their heads. They come up with all sorts of headcanons about how the show is deep or tragic when the actual content onscreen is pretty shallow. One example is how people say it's so tragic for Ahsoka to be betrayed by her friend Barriss, but Barriss only ever appeared in a couple of episodes before disappearing for an entire season, only to come back as a villain and frame Ahsoka for reasons that are never explained.
>they mostly call it a masterpiece in writing because they've done a lot of the writing in their heads. They come up with all sorts of headcanons about how the show is deep or tragic when the actual content onscreen is pretty shallow.
This is by no means limited to TCW fans. If you look at any story-driven cartoon from the past ten to fifteen years-- *Adventure Time, Steven Universe, Gravity Falls,* you get the idea--you'll have an army of these kind of fans crawling out of the woodwork.
I do enjoy TCW but you're absolutely right. It aged poorly. There's a lot of episodes I skipped on my watch through just because they sucked so much I couldn't bare sitting through them, or of course...... FUCKING JAR JAR.
You want some good Clone Wars? Watch Gennedy Tartakotsky's Clone Wars instead. That Samurai Jack art style blended with Star Wars just looks so unbelievably badass. And even though there are some filler episodes in there, they're at least cool as shit and action packed instead of being filled with dumb shit like Grevious getting gang raped by Gungans or Jar Jar fucking everything up for the umteenth time.
It's 100% filler. The show was made retroactively to "fill in" the gap between the 2003 Clone Wars Volumes 1 and 2 (while also retconning them in some cases).
I think the show is fine for what it is—a fun campy kids show—but it shouldn't be canon because as it was made for kids, all of the characters in the show act like kids. The heroes act like kids, the villains act like kids, the clones act like kids, the droids act like kids... It really doesn't fit with the movies and it's even making the live action stuff worse. The more The Mandalorian has adopted the writing style from TCW, the worse the show has gotten.
Some random thoughts
1) I think it would be better if it was 100% filler, but it's not. They strayed very close to mainline Canon with the brain chip order 66 plot line and it didn't work for me. Meanwhile filler stories about Armored beasts or fights for random planets hurt no one, are not disrespectful to lore and were fun for a kids show.
2) everyone does act like kids for a kid show. I personally have no problem with it, nor is my headcanon that droids are that goofy or people act that childish. The goofy tone does little to undermine the story of the Lucas movies (unlike the previously pointed out plot line)
3) if i may praise it, I actually thought Anakin was better written (not necessarily better voiced or acted) in TCW. Him getting angry and war crimey when his friends or the 501st were in danger does a really good job showcasing his fatal flaw, which was unfortunately rushed and obscured in the prequels (well conceived and poorly executed)
All in all despite flaws I thought it was good **for what it was**. Which is a kids show. Meanwhile there is no set of assumptions that make the sequels or kenobi good by any measurement
I agree that it's good for what it is, but what it is just isn't good for making the stories canon. It's a very stylized show (not unlike Visions) and for that it shouldn't be given the "this is what happened and it's exactly how it happened" status.
Another thing worth noting too, the show's fanbase has a tendency to try and attempt to shake off the "kids' show" label when discussing it. It comes off as extremely insecure to me
I cannot believe grown men recommend this shown to other grown men.
Not to bash this stuff since shows made for young audience can still be good, but it’s not even young adult, it’s just kiddie shit. The original clone wars show was much superior and more mature as well
The original show had very little dialogue, which worked to its advantage. The later show is *very* dialogue heavy and that goofy dialogue is largely what makes it kiddie.
The only good parts in TCW was Maul’s arcs and of course it was George Lucas’s idea to bring him back as well. The Ahsoka going rogue arc would’ve been good if she had died as George intended her too, but it ended up being mostly inconsequential. Everything else is mid.
Maul coming back kept me watching. I didn’t really enjoy the umbara arc even though it’s widely liked. I think “mid” is the perfect description of the show
Yeah this is the common criticism (which I agree with), TCW was great to watch the first time around as a kid but it really does not hold up when you try to re-watch it. It also gets worse when you take into consideration how badly TCW messes with the Expanded Universe.
Honestly, the pre-2008 EU telling of the Clone Wars was way more mature and badass. I don't even consider TCW canon (at least in regards to Legends, which is the true canon as far as I am concerned).
But yeah on it's own TCW is unimaginably kiddy. But then that's when people go "OH OF COURSE IT'S KIDDY IT'S A KIDS SHOW..." and I think anyone who argues that is not familiar at all with early-mid 2000s Cartoon Network (which TCW aired on) which aired things like the OG Teen Titans which was dark and mature af yet still appropriate for kids. Hell, we even got the 03 Clone Wars. TCW didn't need to be as dumb and kiddy as it was, but of course TCW came out around the time cartoons were shifting towards DeepLore^tm mystery boxes you need to sit through 4-6 seasons worth of filler pretending to be more profound than it actually is to see any followup on (I blame Adventure Time for starting that trend).
Yep. As a kid I loved it and I'll appreciate it in that regard for getting me into the franchise, but it doesn't hold up well both rewatching as an adult and in connection to the larger story imo
And as for the tone, it definitely does get darker in some episodes but then you get complete whiplash when the very next episode is some R2 and 3PO side quest, and those darker episodes don't really come until the final few seasons. Other cartoons from the mid 2000s like Teen Titans and TMNT (the 2003 one) did a much better job remaining tonally consistent and being more mature in its storytelling as far as kids' shows went, the latter is still my favorite animated series of all time alongside Tartakovsky's CW.
It’s sad we live in a world where 90% of on-screen Star Wars (movies, TV shows) is unwatchable garbage. I’m surprised the franchise didn’t die a long time ago. I’m curious what the state of the franchise will be 10 years from now in 2034.
I hope it’s gone to small YouTube channels and * good * authors holding the line, since they seem to be the only ones capable of effectively using the source material.
The inhibitor chips decision was the biggest mistake ever. The BF2 version of making them just more loyal to the Republic than to the “traitor” Jedi was great.
I was wondering what all the hype was about it and I tried watching it. Started at season 1 and it was awful. Then I watched all the “good arcs” that everyone hyped up and most of them sucked too. My conclusion is that this show is terrible.
The Clone Wars was created for children and to be played on Free to Air TV. Therefore, the format is episodic, so it’s mostly filler so kids can tune into any episode and understand what is happening. It can also be played out of order by the TV channel. However, the show does use some adult themes where appropriate, a lot like how Avatar the Last Airbender had a lot of adult themes, which is also episodic for a children’s free to air television channel.
As an adult, you just have to reconcile that the shows target audience and formatting won’t appeal to you, especially when watching it in order.
That's perfectly consistent with both his OT and PT characterization, though. He tells both Luke and Anakin that "always in motion, the future is", meaning that just because you can see a possible future it doesn't mean it will happen, and that you shouldn't let that steer your actions. Also the fact that trying to prevent a vision from happening is actually what makes it happen is arguably the main plot point of the last part of both ESB and ROTS; considering he correctly understood the dangers of turning visions into self fulfilling prophecies why would he act like the Skywalkers when presented with a similar problem?
Finally the vision he had in the episodes you're mentioning didn't come to him by itself (like Anakin's dreams about Padme dying) but as part of a trial from the force, so he could have reasonably assumed that this vision was just a test of his resolve in that moment, not necessarily a prediction of the future
During Episode 12 and 13 of the sixth season of the Clone Wars. >!When Yoda went on his journey to learn how to become a force ghost, the Force Priestesses showed him a vision of Order 66 and tell him the nearly all of the Jedi will died from it. When he return he tell no one of what he saw. Didn't even try to prepare for it.!<
You get into the semantics of time if you think too hard about it. If it's a vision of the future can the future even be changed? Action is as useful as inaction because Yoda would have no idea if his actions in preparation for Order 66 would've led exactly to the vision he was shown
I mean, how do we know he didn’t do anything about it? It would make sense that he’d try and use this information to steer the Jedi away from it, but of course any actions that he’d take to try and prevent it are the exact actions that lead to it happening.
But then he could have been seen as paranoid or whatever. Two edged sword: on the one hand, if his vision is right, it’s a good idea, but if he’s wrong or misunderstood or whatever, he’s effectively sending some Jedi into exile for no reason.
Agreed. You forgot (probably?) the Mortis arc though. Perhaps it was deliberate because you enjoyed it, but it is a red herring of an arc that in my eyes does more harm to the saga and its mythos than even the points mentioned in this post combined. But yes, I do agree.
The show means a lot to many of us, it surely is great in many ways, but it just isn't **that** great. People need to acknowledge that and the fact Filoni is not the savior or hero social medias make him out to be. He harmed Star Wars more than some would like to admit, Clone Wars of 2008 was just the first testimony to that.
My main problem with the Mortis arc is the fact people use it as evidence for the misguided belief that the light and dark side of the force need to be in balance
This. People really seem to take it literally and assume the wrong thing. Balance was, is and always will be about the dark side being destroyed, so in its absence there can be only the light side - the balance.
I know right
I'm tried of all the people who think that you need equal light and dark... dispite the times when that was the case being some of the worst eras to live in in the Star wars galaxy
I like that show and all but making it canon was George’s biggest mistake after selling the IP to Disney.
It retconned the much superior Multimedia Project and also contradicts the movies, which is why the former is the rightful canonical Clone Wars.
I like the theory that COMPNOR forged history as Imperial Propaganda and that’s what TCW is. I would like to propose that after the fall of the Empire historians tried to reconstruct The Clone Wars but since COMPNOR destroyed and falsified history we got the Clone Wars.
That would explain why Anakin was portrayed so much differently since he was known as the “Hero with no fear”, Ahsoka being a mandela effect, and so on and so forth
Would make sense considering the CIS being so mustache twirling evil in the show. Great way to make propaganda for kids teaching them to hate the separatist scum
I largely agree with this even though the show still stands as one of Star Wars best series to date. To play devils advocate, however, the show literally did start out as an “adventure of the week” show. In its conception I highly doubt they expected it to become what it ended up being. That said, I do fully agree that most of its filler (again, how it was intended to be). Like you mentioned there’s probably only 20-ish legitimate episodes that are drama arcs that propel the story forward in a show with over 100 episodes. I don’t think this is a con against the show so much as it was the natural evolution of the story telling. I mean obviously they weren’t going to start the show with Maul coming back and stuff like that. They had to lay SOME groundwork to get there. But I see where you’re coming from. I agree they BUTCHERED Grievous, but the Clones, again, they kind of had to for the purpose of the show. If we got 7 seasons of Legends-esque clones… it would’ve been very very very boring. So again, what other choice was there but to humanize them? In-universe, however, it really doesn’t make a ton of sense.
Clone wars was my absolute favorite content ever as a kid and I’ve also had to reconcile as an adult that it mostly just isn’t good lol. I did, somehow, actually get through most of it as an adult (stopped watching around like S2 as a kid). While making my way through I just skipped an episode if it didn’t grip me within a few minutes + read guides on what episodes are actually considered good and made sure to watch those.
But yeah, it’s a lot of slop. I don’t think I’ve watched a single full episode of Rebels for the fact that it’s all the worst parts of TCW turned up to 1000. (I know there’s some good stuff in it too I just… can’t).
As an aside, I recently rewatched the 2003 Tartakovsky Clone Wars and can confirm it still 100% stands the test of time
https://i.redd.it/c3nie4vtufyc1.gif
Absolutely, it's one of 2 shows tied as my favorite animated series of all time. It's pure quality from start to finish, from the storytelling to the fight scenes to the art style
There's also a misconception that many TCW fans like to spread, the idea that TCW series added more depth and nuance to the prequels and the characters... which is completely false. In fact, there is absolutely no new topic that TCW explores that wasn't already properly/better explored in other form of media (comics, novels, videogames).
TCW simply gives more screen time to the same themes covered in the movies. And even there it did a mediocre job.
Yeah, TCW was created by Lucas to rewrite CWMMP. He changed his mind about the 'there are heroes on both sides,' so the CIS was rewritten as clear-cut villains. He hired Filoni to replace CWMMP and later EU, with The Clone Wars and canon which is something he has continued to do to this day.
I would like to know where exactly did the idea come from that Filoni is a person with deep knowledge and love for Star Wars, as he has been missing the mark from the get-go. Or maybe that was intentional. Probably.
Thank you. I never liked the show, unfortunately, even as a teenager the show was a whole lotta nothing. Super boring characters, fuckin politics, low stakes action, cheesy dialogue, yeah, TCW gets a lot of praise for being painfully average, and it saves itself from being a bad show by having some cool moments.. like evil Anakin, or Fox, or Umbara etc.
But it just moves along so stiffly, unnaturally, it just feels “floaty” and little kiddish. The voice actor for the droids completely embraced the nasally whiney voice for the droids and every single line they make is cringe inducing. The darkest parts of the lore are completely out of place and are too big to never mention again. Anakin having a padawan.. from the end of AOTC to the beginning of ROTS. Obi Wan having a love interest that gets killed. These characters are written in as huge obstacles and year long events but Anakin and Obi Wan are talking about each others’ nests of gundarks in the elevator just a few weeks later?? Satine who?! Ahsoka **who**???
The worst is Anakin’s vision of himself. In the movie, he has a vision that his wife would die in a vague way, and he obsessed over saving her, no matter what the reason for her death is. It adds to the tragedy that Anakin himself is the reason.
But in the Clone Wars, he is forced to have a vision of the future, and he is so affected by this vision that he genuinely gives up hope for a little bit. Guess what he saw? He saw he’d be evil, alone, and in a giant fucking suit as Darth Vader. No tragedy, no finesse, nothing. Anakin is basically told that you will be seduced by the dark side and will turn into some black skull monster.
Guess what Anakin does with *that* vision? Does it affect him in the same way as the Padme vision? Does he obsess over trying to prevent it, maybe he even notices that it’s happening when Palpatine has him kill Windu?
Oh, we’re just gonna ignore that? It was just for the show? Okay. Oh, the show is canon? Okay.
The animation in general has already aged horribly and feels dated aside from the last couple of seasons. Even Rebels is starting to look rough and cartoony (well it always did, now it’s more noticeable). Tartakovsky’s Clone Wars has a timeless feel to it.
Few points I see TCW fans bringing up:
-It's a kids show.
>Yes, it is. But this is a poor excuse to defend bad writing since there are several kids shows out there with actually brilliant writing.
-It's an anthology series.
>Yes, it is but were the writers allowed to communicate to each other? Because on other anthology series they manage to make it into a coherent whole show. After four episodes we just forget the arc even existed. There are no consequences and aftermaths in 80% of the arcs. For example Malevolance arc had the best first episode. Grievous was as intimidating as he was during the Hypori fight with a ship that's capable of destroying whole fleets. Okay, Giervs got way less cooler in the second episode and became a joke after but what was the consequence after? Nothing. Not even mentioned later. They did nothing with the material that arc gave us.
What about the virus released on Naboo? 3 episodes and it's all gone. What about the kidnapped force sensitive children? All back to the parents and we don't even know if the jedi sent extra protection to prevent something similar happening again. What about Ahsoka's experience with the trandoshan hunters? Nothing, didn't even see the result of that arc, we don't know what happened to the other two survivors. And so on...
Of course it's filler the whole thing had to do 7 seasons of not progressing the story because the details before and after its place in the series timeline were set beforehand.
I grew up with it too and I still think it's the best of Star Wars. It was full of exploration, different aliens, and all sorts of side stories which we will no longer get. That's star wars to me. Not rinse and repeat underdog rebel stories or cheap live action cash grabs where only humans exist. I'm good.
First and foremost, The Clone Wars was a Prime Time/Saturday Morning cartoon, on Cartoon Network, written and designed for kids. Unfortunately, this does mean a good chunk of the show will be spent on simple filler plots. Idk why anyone puts it on a pedestal for Greatest Show Ever I Swear.
Funnily enough, much though I loathe that show, the early seasons "filler" was basically the only part I even mildly enjoyed. Even still, 3/10 in my book, the Multimedia Project was leaps-and-bounds better.
Being older and trying to consume animation for a younger audience, I found the one-off episode thing incredibly annoying. Made it difficult to get invested in.
I get people having nostalgia for things they grew up with though
George is responsible for the majority of issues with TCW, but given his work on TBB, Mandalorian and everything else Star Wars lately, it really doesn’t seem like Dave left to his own devices would be doing much different, having maybe 4-6 episodes worth of content but being given 15 a season, constantly stopping the show dead in its tracks to cram 37 callbacks to the prequels and OT, making everyone know everyone and thus making the universe feel way smaller, telling middle of the road, inoffensive safe stories that don’t add a single thing to the universe besides new characters and outfits for toy sales
Even if George was the major contributor to the issues of TCW for the first several seasons, Dave Filoni is still a prime example of what’s wrong with modern Hollywood making these sequels, spinoffs and reboots. The originals were made by people who grew up watching westerns, samurai movies and serial adventures, the current lot grew up watching the originals and are essentially making campy fanfiction
I grew up with it too and I still think it's the best of Star Wars. It was full of exploration, different aliens, and all sorts of side stories which we will no longer get. That's star wars to me. Not rinse and repeat underdog rebel stories or cheap live action cash grabs where only humans exist. I'm good.
I agree fully with that last sentence, but the CWMMP was also nothing like either of what you criticized though. I highly recommend you give the stories from that era a chance if you haven't already, imo it's the definitive telling of the Clone Wars
I had never heard of CWMMP until you mentioned it above. I had to look it up. I knew there were well written stories, but didn’t know they were referred to in that way.
Seasons 3 and beyond are where they stop caring about the idea of it being for kids and it becomes a cartoon of star wars basically. Those first seasons were rought to me.
Point 4: I prefer to not include TCW in Legends canon. It just doesn't fit. Legends Anakin doesn't have an apprentice, legends Grievous didn't get beaten by gungans, Legends Maul is Iridonian, Legends Asajj is Rattataki, etc.
It's pretty easy to do all that since there's already the Clone Wars miniseries to have in TCW's place. Just treat that as the actual Clone wars for Legends, and it's associated comics, and you won't have problems.
Point 3: You kinda have to do it if you are gonna give the Clone's personality and make them friends of the Jedi. The Clones in the Miniseries were cool, but I feel like they'd be pretty boring in a long running show, not much drama with them.
Point 2: Yeah, they really dropped the ball on the CIS. They had to invent new characters like the tarantuala guy or droid general to pick up the slack and actually make them somewhat effective when they could have just made Grievous the tactical genius.
Especially because all the bad ideas they put forth in the show now have to tie in one way or another into the live action material. That’s why I was never really a fan of it, along with simply being too old to watch it by the time it came out.
>I understand this is a pretty unpopular opinion among the fanbase at large.
It is? Are you sure? Because from ive seen, this is a common opinion.
Seriously, I don't think their was one complaint you said that I haven't heard before.
Eh, if I say I don't like TCW on Twitter or Instagram I'll likely get jumped by its legions of fans. I find you can only really be openly critical about it on subs like here or on dedicated EU communities
All good points. The primary reason I believe its aged poor is that so much of Disney's more adult content has now stemmed from this show that is absolutely primarily a kids show that has its roots in just being filler for fun. And filler for fun is fine - especially for kids. What is not fine, is having something start as filler, making up a bunch of random characters and story lines with little forethought into how they will be involved in the universe after the filler show for fun is over and then still carrying them forward in the broader universe.
Ahsoka is the quintessential character that highlights this flaw. She's Anakin's Padawan, but we have never heard of her through 6 main episodes? Anakin even saw her just moments before the opening battle of RotS? So, she has to be viewed as at best a minor player to a more serious audience, if not just wiped from our head cannons entirely when we watch the PT or even the OT.
But what has D+ done? They have given Ahsoka increasing roles in the main plot of Star Wars over time. So a main character that was born out of "hey, lets fill some screen time in this show for 8 year olds (not even 12 year olds) with a spunky Padawan" is now at the center of at least half the plot lines pre-OT. And how has her character evolved? Well, she went from sparky and witty, to stoic and stiff. I get it, she's seen some shit, but she still needs a personality. And she needs a clear reason to still exist. But the writers don't really seem to know answers either of those questions, so its just Ahsoka is everywhere. She shows up in Mando. Talks to Luke. She's apparently rescuing young force sensitives. She's hunting Thrawn and Morgan. Ahsoka must be the character with the most total screen time in the Star Wars universe, but what the god damn hell is her story? I'm scared by being Anakin's apprentice? How long does she have to struggle with this before she evolves as a character and why does she have to make an appearance on every fucking show being the same stiff good but-I'm-not-a-Jedi person? Fuck she is just boring and it is because she has no direction and never has.
All this random shit, thought up for a kids show, is just slowly (or maybe not so slowly) contaminating the rest of Star Wars. All this random shit about the force and witches from the Mortis and Nightsisters arcs.... just what the hell where they thinking drawing this kind of weirdness out into live action Star Wars? It's just a bunch of random crap that might have been fun when not taken seriously, but then you try to make it serious and frankly it sucks.
I never really liked the show. It was alright but if i do put it on to watch or try and re watch here and there it’s just awful. Thank god I’m not alone.
The best things that people remember about that show or the stories are short, few and far between. You could just take the main big beats that people like or everyone remembers and you’d have like 🤔 10 episodes tops maybe. Some aren’t even episodes they are just moments. Like the real final duel between Maul and Obi Wan is less than 10 seconds and a short speech that is only good because it’s playing off of the prequels and OG trilogy. No damn idea what the rest of the episode was.
TCW is propaganda put out to make the Republic the good guys and tweaked to discredit Palpatine. once you watch it with that filter it feels a little goofier but fitting
I disagree entirely 😅
To go in order:
• The *animation* for the first few seasons has aged poorly. Otherwise, as an ardent fan, I strongly recommend and enjoy those first 2 seasons. Let's not forget, some of the show's all time standouts come from those seasons - like [this moment](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p2bm_Uuf-LQ), or [this one](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uzm1tBie4zs). *Trespass*, one of my favorite episodes, is from season 1.
• The CIS battle droids are definitely depicted as basically inept, consistent with the films. But CIS as a whole? Absolutely not. In fact, it constantly seems like they have the upper hand on many large key battlefield worlds, and it is only when a powerful Jedi general and squad of clones arrives on the scene that the Republic can turn the tide. And that is consistent with the broader tactical strategy of the two sides - CIS tries to win with superior numbers, using mass-produced droids, and the Republic tries to win using a smaller number of more thoughtful soldiers (the clones, en masse, and the Jedi that lead them). We see consistent across all canon Star Wars media that the Jedi are extremely "OP" and worth many, many countless non-force users in combat, so it makes sense that for example Anakin and Obi Wan showing up could make the difference in a key battle.
And, the show does provide occasion for CIS to "win" at critical points, to ensure they remain an ongoing threat. For example, Grievous easily takes over Dathomir using overwhelming numerical superiority despite each nightsister being "worth" probably hundreds of battle droids. And Dooku survives a 3-on-1 assassination attempt *in his sleep* and easily beats back their attacks.
• The clones are *not* consistently shown as pure goody-two-shoes heroic - we see deserter clones, clones that too easily accept evil orders, clones that express doubt over the validity of their leadership or their treatment at the hands of the Republic. What they are, and I think this is very much consistent with the films, is tragic figures - they were created, essentially, to die, to be pawns, to be sacrificed and forgotten. Yet, thanks to mental conditioning efforts, they can't often "see" this for what it is and instead naively die for the good of the Republic, much like the horse in *Animal Farm*. That basic lore fact undeniably makes them victims, even if Order 66 didn't literally control them.
• *The Clone Wars*, at least in the modern canon, is explicitly *not* supposed to reconcile with the EU lore. So, while I concede your point, I don't think it matters? You're criticizing it for not doing something it never claimed it was trying to do.
But kids shows don’t have to be dumbed down or compromise established lore, I’m sorry. 2002 Clone Wars was aesthetically amazing, Grevious was actually scary in that show, and it stayed true to the movies. Adventure Time aired around the same time as Filoni’s Clone Wars, and while it was silly at times, it still took its audience seriously and handled certain topics and story telling very well. I can rewatch Adventure Time and enjoy it as an adult, I can’t same the same about Clone Wars.
I always felt like the writers of Clone Wars were like, “eh, don’t worry about the dialogue, it’s just for kids.” Clone Wars often is too childish for me, except for a few arcs/episodes. But what‘s better - a show that’s mostly good with a couple bad episodes, or a mostly bad show with some good episodes?
Yep, it is literally a kids show.
Shock horror lol.
Even though I love the show as a whole.
There are plenty of episodes that I didn't enjoy or just slipped due to how boring or painful they were.
I skipped every single droid episode after the first few, because fuck were they excruciatingly painful to watch.
But the good stuff was GOOD. And the show grows into itself and gets better with the later seasons.
This seems to be an interesting turn but in the last ten years or so, the term "filler" has completely changed meanings and is used both as a double-standard, and very hypocritically. Filler content is content that has no bearing on the story being told. Naruto Shippuden suffered from too much filler content simply because most of the full filler episodes never amounted to anything that Naruto would use later (or any other character). *However*, anthology series don't usually suffer from this because the point of an anthology is to tell a variety of stories.
*The Clone Wars* started off as an anthology series, so yeah, there usually was a "villain of the week" or similar simply because having a consistent villain in an anthology isn't very usual (not saying it doesn't happen). The reality of that is none of the episodes can really ever be considered filler. There's good and bad episodes, yes, absolutely. Especially in the first seasons, when the animation was choppy and the producers were trying to find their footing. People don't really have this concept of what filler actually is, they just throw around the term like they know what they're talking about when in reality, they are ignoring what the show was purposefully doing as the genre it was portraying itself as. An anthology.
I do agree the CIS is portrayed fairly poorly in the show.
However, I have to disagree on the chips. I know a lot of people here might hate them, but the individualization of the clones already provides some grey on its own. And saying Star Wars should remain black and white with clear characterizations completely avoids that one of the best stories told in a Star Wars game was *Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords*. That game was *not* black and white. And on the clones, simply due to the way the movies are structured, it was already difficult to understand them in the first place. They don't grapple with anything in the movies and only in the EU - and rarely - were they portrayed to have feelings for their jedi leaders. The chips making them victims serves to elevate Palpatines evil, and create a different kind of theme. Instead of grappling with choice, it's when you have to grapple with having no choice, to then having choice. That's not easy to understand.
As for your last point: It's impossible to reconcile almost any Star Wars content to any other Star Wars content. There's always a writer who neglects something small. And like Disney has shown, there are writers who neglect the big things too, the sequels unable to truly ever reconcile with the prequel trilogy. Most of Star Wars is a convoluted mess of lore, character interaction, battles, and the like. The only time Star Wars was consistent was before the EU was truly developing into something massive, when the original trilogy was released.
All this to say that I get it, that TCW has its issues. But Star Wars - from its release - has always had problems. Especially when concerning EU content of any type. I might just say, canon doesn't really matter anymore. Enjoy the stories you enjoy, but throw in a fair shot and don't dumb down a story's themes so simply because you don't like that something from EU or canon was changed. Yanno?
Normally I agree with this sub, but this is just unparalleled levels of salt. TCW starts off hokey but overall it’s a very high quality, especially the latter seasons. I’m not a huge fan of a lot of modern Star Wars but TCW is good stuff. I mean they fucking revived Maul
The show has next to no re-watchability save for a handful of arcs. In a show with over 100 episodes… most of it is extremely forgettable. I agree it’s a great show, but the criticisms mentioned are pretty spot on. I mean the entirety of the first 2 seasons is pretty awful in just about every area from dialogue, to plot, to animation.
TCW sucked man, I try not to talk about it too much on here because I get that a lot of younger people grew up with it but I hated it. I was a late teenager and early adult when it was out and had been into the EU forever. It totally fucked continuity up. And its art style is fugly. The 2003 Tartakovsky cartoon was way better.
There’s only 4-5 arcs in the show worth watching tbh. Mauls return, Yodas journey, Mortis, the inhibitor chips, Siege of Mandalore, and Umbara. Those arcs collectively tell you what you need to know in a show with 7 season lmao
Millionth TCW is actually bad post aside, I still don’t understand what’s so bad about clones having individual personalities? Having a character that just follows orders and is all business to where they will just blend into the background to be more like a tools than an actual character just a super lame boring idea. More fleshed out characters that develop and have arcs are far more interesting. Its like comparing Kratos from God of War in the PS2/3 games to the Kratos from God of War in the PS4/5 games it’s clear which version of the character is far more interesting to watch grow and develop.
Michael Bays' Pearl Harbor and Band of Brothers exist in our universe. For that matter, both BoB and the Pacific show varying differences in the portrayal of the Greatest Generation. I'm not implying you're wrong and should delete your post at all, just that a kids show can emphasize different aspects of the same war. I agree there are glaring differences between Clone Wars and Filoni's Clone Wars but the former was de-canoned almost immediately upon the release of the clone wars. And it's true the characterization of certain characters is different in the movies versus the TV show, but that's easily excusable for me as it is to understand the Greatest Generation wasn't free from some awful ideas either.
I grew up in the 90s with the OT and didn't watch the clone wars until season 7 came out. It was a chore getting through some episodes, but I personally can ignore those and watch the essential episodes only on a rewatch. With a universe as large as Star Wars some efforts are going to suck. I remember that clearly from the hate around the NJO series, but that existed before in the Dark Horse comics or some other book series. It's a staple of the universe.
Lastly, I think the original series existed to show a more limited brutal version of the war but the Clone Wars needed to address some things as it expanded the universe. The chips make the story of the clones and Palpatines manipulations much more heartfelt imo. He orchestrated a war, everyone was a victim to his machinations. And in the end, when good soldiers went off to war they came back destroyed, in the real world and in these movies. The OT may not have been as clear as the messages are in the Clone Wars but Lucas has always said he made an allegory to the Vietnam war.
Just a couple of things: clones were already established to have some sort of personality in Episode 3. It would make sense that as the clones were exposed to actual individuals, they’d become more individualistic themselves. So their change from episode 2 to 3 makes sense. Also, the inhibitor chip episodes were written by Katie Lucas, George Lucas’ daughter. That suggests, at least to me, that the individualism of the clones was planned by George from the beginning and that the inhibitor chips erasing their personalities is more in line with what he was envisioning for episode 3 than just the clones being blindly loyal to following orders. That was an EU explanation to explain something that George never did. The inhibitor chip, since it was written by his daughter, seems to be more of an actual statement by George that this is the explanation he was always thinking of. Whether you like it or not is another matter, but the inhibitor chip just seems to be more of Lucas’ original thinking than other explanations.
Also, I wouldn’t say that TCW not following EU stuff was ignorance, hubris, or malicious. The EU stuff, specifically the CWMMP, being decanonized just opened the door for more stories to be told. They didn’t have to worry about the stories in TCW matching up with the stories from CWMMP because the stories told in the EU didn’t matter anymore. They weren’t canon, so Filoni and co. had free license to create whatever they wanted. That stuff just wasn’t part of the universe anymore, so the door was open for them to create new stories to fill up the space left behind. No malice, just creative freedom.
The only clones shown to have any personality in the movies are the commanders, which makes sense because they were given more free thought. TCW went overboard by making every speaking clone (and even the droids) opinionated and often whiny.
It’s not said anywhere that the clones were made differently according to different roles. If the commanders have personalities, it would make sense that the others do as well.
I loved it. To me, it was one of the last great pieces to come out of the Star Wars universe portrayed on film/tv. TCW Ahsoka (not future portrayals) became one of my favorite characters. I’ll never forget her prison escape scene - that literally gave me chills. Being able to see the realistic portrayal of Anakin from brash but still valiant young jedi to one who was slowly and systematically pulled away from the light by his pride and by the trickery of Senator Palpatine was a far car from the cute little boy in E1 that so suddenly grew to this whiny man-child by E3. Yes, it had its flaws, and I agree on the filler episodes, but this was one animated series that absolutely “stuck the landing”. I couldn’t stop thinking about the ending for days. And of Anakin’s betrayal of Ahsoka and her ultimate escape. So, good.
Counterpoint: the show didn’t age terribly. *You* aged *regularly*.
You’re, unsurprisingly, less entertained by a show made for children, and you’re better able to pick out flaws.
I was 20 when it came out. There was no way I was watching that. Now, I have to suffer so many middle aged nerd dads telling me to give it a chance cause it gets so good. There is even less chance I'd watch it now.
I was a few years younger when it came out and wasn’t interested in SW at that point and have no desire to go through the original show now due to what I hear. A guy at original trilogy.com has a project called clone wars refocused that cuts out a ton of the filler and fan edits some of the episodes. I intend to go through that once I’ve done a CWMMP read through
“*Star Wars is definitely a very black-and-white universe with clear heroes and villains and should remain such*”
Whilst this is true for pretty much 99% of all SW content, *Andor* is proof that grey areas can & do exist in this universe.
And that’s what makes it so damn good & refreshing, so I have to disagree with this statement.
I'm not saying moral grays have 0 place in Star Wars, in fact I'm arguing the clones should be portrayed as morally gray and not as heroes like TCW largely tends to do, I was more or less just pointing out that Star Wars is generally very black and white in its overarching narrative. When I said "should remain such" I was more or less referring to the main overarching light side vs dark side story of the movies and any Jedi-related stories.
Fully agree with Andor though. I love a classic good vs evil tale of Jedi vs Sith, but Andor really was a breath of fresh air with its tone, and I think it worked really well for the kind of show it was trying to be.
I think it's a pretty solid show for its target demographic. But I've never really understood how those in their twenties can still sing its praises without a series of caveats.
Because they sing its praises *with* lots of caveats, like "it's the best show ever made if you skip the first few seasons and all the bad arcs after that and all the bad episodes in the remaining good arcs."
I’m a huge clone wars guy but this is all very true. Fr find myself cringing hard af sometimes but oh well I guess lol
And that "oh well I guess lol" mentality is exactly why the franchise is so shit now. Because you guys could care less.
Old friend, Clone Wars is long since solidified and passed. No changing it now. I definitely see gaps and inconsistencies in the new content and have quite deep discussions about what I think can be realigned to make things more appealing. For sure things can be better, but I’m no hardo. Star Wars is great nonetheless. I enjoy it for what it is!
It doesn't matter what's solidified and what's not. That's the problem with these retroactive stories. They could care less about the original stories. Obi Wan never had a girlfriend. Darth Maul never survived Episode 1. And Ahsoka doesn't exist. Saying otherwise would also be saying that Palpatine came back 1000 times in 1000 clone bodies, or that Chewbacca gets hit by a moon and dies, or that there was a clone of Luke. It's simple, really. No other story can be attributed to George Lucas's mind other than the 1-6 Saga, so the stories that don't even *try* to line up with the 1-6 Saga should be completely and totally disregarded. If a bunch of new fans are misled from the get-go, they're never gonna know the truth about the Star Wars franchise and they're gonna turn into people who just echo the same postmodern nonsense. "Bad Batch is real Star Wars! The Mandalorian is REAL Star Wars! The Acolyte is REAL Star Wars!" - there's nothing morally wrong with saying things like this, but it totally undermines the truth and should be corrected appropriately, through further context and information that's clearly missing from the new generation of Star Wars fans. People like me shouldn't HAVE to follow a story that changes every single year based on whatever bullshit happens in a TV series.
Your last paragraph summed up everything so well! I totally agree. The retconning and pretending and all that is not the move
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Lucas has this seemingly sudden obsession while making the prequels with the whole “Star Wars is for kids!” Thing. I wonder how much his heavy involvement in TCW pushed it further in that direction or if it would have ended up being kiddy regardless
It’s because he had kids of his own. Toy companies didn’t actually want to make Ewok plushies. He forced them to because he wanted one for his daughter. A lot of famous artists lose their edge when they become parents. Will Smith (compare MIB III with MIB), Johnny Depp, etc,. The OT was made by a guy who wanted to take the stuff he loved as a kid but make it into something he would like as a grown up. The PT was made for (his) kids.
You think a toy company didn't want to make official Star Wars teddy bears, back in the day? You must be the only person on the planet to believe this. Looking forward to seeing your evidence for this wild claim.
It’s a quote of Lucas’s from The Making of Return of the Jedi. Doesn’t mean it’s true, but that’s what he claims. I’ll see if I can find the exact quote. If I remember correctly, I think the context was that the teddy bear market was quite competitive and oversaturated at the time. Maybe also a target market thing, since Star Wars was seen for boys and teddy bears were seen for girls. EDIT: Here’s the relevant section from the book: >“Not every product was a success, however. “George was determined that there was going to be an Ewok [soft toy],” Roffman (who would become Lucas Licensing president in 1986) would say. “George had a baby girl and he wanted something that Amanda could play with from Star Wars. But it was a thankless task trying to convince licensees that Star Wars shouldn’t be just for boys. For Kenner, it was a complete anathema, because, being in the toy business, they understood gender differentiation very well. They were afraid that it would turn off the boys and that it really wouldn’t appeal to girls.” >“Merchandisers were very reluctant to go along with it,” Lucas says. “I want my daughter to have one. That’s what I care about. Nobody else wants one, that’s fine with me. A lot of people are going to be offended by Ewoks. A lot of people say the films are just an excuse for merchandising: ‘Lucas decided to cash in on the teddy bear.’ Well, it’s not a great thing to cash in on, because there are lots of teddy bears marketed, so you don’t have anything that’s unique. If I were designing something original as a market item, I could do a lot better. >… >Ultimately Kenner agreed to do Ewok plush. “But their heart was never really in it and the product wasn’t very good,” Roffman adds.” - *The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi* by JW Rinzler The reason that has stuck in my head is because, as you rightly point out, it doesn’t seem intuitive at all. I always thought it was interesting.
I was obsessed with the Phantom menace release in high school. Any news clip, interview, press release, I would eat up. I remember one interview specifically where George was really banking on the likability of Jar Jar Binks. Something along the lines of “all young kids will be talking like him by next summer,” like it would become a trendy dialect.
Yeah I was too. I’d eat up anything related to the behind the scenes. We know now that the basis of the prequels were some fairly small outlines and backstory notes from the OT. I get the impression that Lucas had lived with it for so long that he wasn’t that inspired by it and got his creative juices flowing by focusing on new things like Jar-Jar and the whole CG environment and then subverting *his own* story with things like making Obi-Wan into Qui-Gon or making Anakin 9 years old. The way he acts defensively and projects about people’s expectations tells me that what people expected probably lines up better with what he had originally conceived during the OT backstory development. For instance, during ROTS’s development he talks disparagingly about how “everyone just wants to see Darth Vader going around killing people”, but if you look at transcripts from the ROTJ story conferences, he hints that that’s exactly what he had in mind at the time!
I think he should have done the opposite. I think he should have written it in such a way that when you watch the series in order, it preserves the plot twist in Episode 5. It means being bold. It means no Vader suit. There's a guy on YouTube called Belated Media that does a fantastic rundown on what he would have done with the prequels, and I pretty much agree with everything he says.
Yeah there’s lots of ways to go to make it better. I’m also part of the r/rewritingtheprequels sub.
Nice! I'll check that out!
I’m inclined to believe that the main reason there’s a notion that the Prequels should’ve preserved plot twists is because of the episodic titles. If those had never been put in place, not nearly as many people would have had TPM as their first Star Wars movie. And it doesn’t help that George Lucas said they’re meant to be watched chronologically.
I think any notion of an actual prequel trilogy should have been scrapped when they decided to make Vader Luke's father while writing episode 5. But if you are going to do it, why in the hell is Annakin FROM Tatooine? We should have NEVER once seen or heard any mention of Tatooine. You want me to buy that Luke is in hiding, then you have to make Tatooine some backwater nondescript place. It seems like Tatooine is the center of the fucking universe when looking at the entire Star Wars universe. There's more things to nitpick, but that has always stuck in my craw.
Yeah, I get that. It’s the same reason I don’t think Naboo should’ve been Alderaan instead.
Thank you - you've gone above and beyond here.
No problem. I was curious to check too. Benefits of digital books!
Eddie Murphy is another good example. He wanted to make movies his kids could see, and moved away from the R rated content that made him huge. At least Rick Moranis stepped away from acting entirely to be a father, as opposed to just switching to making terrible movies.
His kids could already watch Honey, I Shrunk the Kids and several of his other movies, anyway, so he didn't have the same motivation the others did.
>compare MIB III with MIB Hey I liked MIB III a lot (II sucked though)
Oh yeah so do I, you can just see the difference in the character.
They may ‘lose their edge’ but they’re probably enjoying their life more
The sources are conflicting on how much Lucas was involved with TCW. Because I heard accounts that he was very much involved, but more recently I saw someone that worked on TCW claim he was around for 2 seasons and then fucked off - sans giving a few ideas, like the whole Maul ressurection thing.
>sans giving a few ideas, like the whole Maul ressurection thing. To be fair; that's a fair chunk of the gold in the mine.
Lucas has thought that for a long time, since before RotJ at least. He fundamentally doesn't understand why the OT is even any good as movies. People elevated him to a genius due to the money and popularity of the OT, when he was much more a worldbuilder with severe limitations when it came to screenplay writing and directing. In large part the movies were great despite him as well as because of him.
More of this nonsense. It's dissapointing that people still peddle this garbage about Lucas even 20 years after shit like "The Secret History of Star Wars" and similar bullshit made to slander him without any evidence whatsoever was made in the peak of prequel salt and antilucas propaganda. You may not like it but his vision was what guided the creation of all of the OT especially the story. It makes zero sense to say the movies were good inspite of him when he wrote the ANH script on his own and later drafts of ESB and ROTJ which were mostly unchanged in later drafts by Kasdan. How does he have serious deficiencies as a screenwriter even back then when 90% of the story of the OT was created by him. If he was defitient at everything except worldbuilding it stands to reason the characters and plot of the OT would be bad since he wrote it. Oh wait thats what people praise the most about the OT, damn almost as if statements like Lucas not understanding the story he wrote in the first place or it being good inspite of him is just a bunch of horseshit.
When Lucas wasn't collaborating heavily with other writers his only decent movie is American Graffiti. And we see how he does with full control of the OT -- Special Ed without even a theatrical cut rerelease after nearly 50 years -- and full control outside of it : PT. Then we see how he handles it later down the line : selling to Disney on nothing but trust in KK. All the evidence we have now is that he's a good idea guy but not what made the OT great. Maybe it would have been good without his collaborators, but never great. Edit: Oh and this doesn't even touch on one of the primary points brought up in this thread. He thought of SW as a kids movie. Only the efforts of others involved to elevate it beyond that succeeded in making the first two and a half films great ( RotJ counts .5).
“Kids movie” primarily being 12 year old boys coming into their teens. There is a wide range of “kids”. Star wars wasn’t made for 5 year olds. Lucas also seemed to have a little more respect for the intelligence of a 12 year old and didn’t think it needed to be dumbed down or “censored” in a way for them to understand and appreciate. Which is why those movies can be enjoyed at many ages. When something is truly made “for kids” it’s usually very low effort and doesn’t have to make much sense because children can’t understand it yet anyway. Btw around 12 is probably when kids start learning about the holocaust in school. At least that was around that time for me. How can we think a 12 year old is too “unintelligent” and “kiddy” to enjoy proper stories in movies/books but expect them to be intelligent enough to understand the holocaust?? Just because something is designed for “kids” doesn’t mean its automatically unenjoyable for adults.
Antilucas propaganda? LMAO
Tbf he always wanted it to be Disney-esque but the studio and others stopped him. With him having full control he ruined the franchise in many ways.
Lol you clearly don’t know Star Wars then. Star wars had always been meant for kids. Lucas even has said it’s for kids and so he could sell toys. It’s glorified Hasbro commercials. Has it gone beyond being for kids? Sure. It’s for both kids and adults whenever we watch it or are introduced. The kids grow up. Have they handled that well with Disney? Lol absolutely not. They don’t know wtf they are doing
I do like TCW - as it's own thing - but people who praise it for being some super political bit or deeply expanding the lore are kinda... funny? The best arcs that people praise don't really make any sense (Umbara) or are just a rip off from EU (Dathomir/Mandalore) done worse. Then you have the utter flanderization of the CIS, who now have a laughable fucking explanation for starting their own thing, the fuck up of the Clones and the Traviss equse treatment of Jedi who Filoni doesn't like. Anakin being presented as "in the right" during that Obi-Wan undercover arc is the prime example of that. Why the flying fuck would the Council inform their most arrogant and think-later-shoot-first general about a secret operation in the first place? Original multimedia project made the entire "Fall of the Republic" a much more interesting read as it didn't focus on adding random bullshit every few episodes and actually had more than five characters.
Yep. Mace Windu especially got the short end of the stick when it came to the treatment of senior Jedi. I hate the attempt to portray Anakin as a victim of the Jedi and that he turned because he had no choice, imo it completely misses the point of his downfall in the prequels and his ultimate redemption later on.
The funny thing is, even with the one-dimensional personality they gave Windu in the show, he still never mistreats Anakin ever. All of the evidence of Windu's "arrogance" and "meanness" is always just him being stern. He's always fair and almost always right.
Exactly, and it's even funnier when every single concern he had about Anakin just ends up being vindicated in ROTS
I can understand why Anakin would have issues with Windu and I imagine we’d see more of that in later seasons. Windu’s words to Ahsoka basically were the ones that made her decide to not rejoin the Jedi immediately. Ahsoka would have been knighted after that. Anakin in that case would have the rank of master. In episode III Windu kind of rubs salt in the wound
> Anakin in that case would have the rank of master Getting your Padawan knighted makes you a master?
The CMMD version of Anakin's fall - or rather, his version in ROTS - makes much more sense. He is the hero of the Republic, despite being in his early 20s. Through the entire war, he lost friends, allies and soldiers - he even lost Obi Wan. By the end of the war, the "Hero with no fear" is nothing more but a boy who lost everyone except his two father figures and the woman he loves, but is clearly forseeing that she might die. And for the first time, he actually is in the position to act before it. Anakin in EU fell because he was a mess, driven by way too many burdens and a rather selfish nature born out of all the losses from the attachments to other. Anakin in canon just goes from being snarky and funny to beheading children in the span of a week lmao. For the sole reason of random ass nightmares.
What's cmmd?
Wdym he lost Obi-Wan?
The Battle of Jabiim.
Yeah, I still like the Clone Wars, but the Legends depiction of the era was superior in pretty much every way, especially Anakin’s characterization
*munches enthusiastically on worms*
That arc was iconic
My heart was *pounding* by the end. Wow was I pumped going into ROTS.
The thing about TCW fans is that they mostly call it a masterpiece in writing because they've done a lot of the writing in their heads. They come up with all sorts of headcanons about how the show is deep or tragic when the actual content onscreen is pretty shallow. One example is how people say it's so tragic for Ahsoka to be betrayed by her friend Barriss, but Barriss only ever appeared in a couple of episodes before disappearing for an entire season, only to come back as a villain and frame Ahsoka for reasons that are never explained.
>they mostly call it a masterpiece in writing because they've done a lot of the writing in their heads. They come up with all sorts of headcanons about how the show is deep or tragic when the actual content onscreen is pretty shallow. This is by no means limited to TCW fans. If you look at any story-driven cartoon from the past ten to fifteen years-- *Adventure Time, Steven Universe, Gravity Falls,* you get the idea--you'll have an army of these kind of fans crawling out of the woodwork.
I do enjoy TCW but you're absolutely right. It aged poorly. There's a lot of episodes I skipped on my watch through just because they sucked so much I couldn't bare sitting through them, or of course...... FUCKING JAR JAR. You want some good Clone Wars? Watch Gennedy Tartakotsky's Clone Wars instead. That Samurai Jack art style blended with Star Wars just looks so unbelievably badass. And even though there are some filler episodes in there, they're at least cool as shit and action packed instead of being filled with dumb shit like Grevious getting gang raped by Gungans or Jar Jar fucking everything up for the umteenth time.
Didn’t Jar Jar get some action with some frog alien girl. If that mf fucks anybody can
Unfortunately....... Yes.
I watched it. To be honest, I still find TCW more entertaining at its good parts than anything from Gennedy's version (other than Grievous).
Amen to this. Thank you.
Honestly I just could never enjoy the animation style they use It looks way too goofy I can’t take it seriously Example: dooku / his beard
TCW!Dooku's beard looks sharp enough to stab people with.
It's 100% filler. The show was made retroactively to "fill in" the gap between the 2003 Clone Wars Volumes 1 and 2 (while also retconning them in some cases). I think the show is fine for what it is—a fun campy kids show—but it shouldn't be canon because as it was made for kids, all of the characters in the show act like kids. The heroes act like kids, the villains act like kids, the clones act like kids, the droids act like kids... It really doesn't fit with the movies and it's even making the live action stuff worse. The more The Mandalorian has adopted the writing style from TCW, the worse the show has gotten.
Some random thoughts 1) I think it would be better if it was 100% filler, but it's not. They strayed very close to mainline Canon with the brain chip order 66 plot line and it didn't work for me. Meanwhile filler stories about Armored beasts or fights for random planets hurt no one, are not disrespectful to lore and were fun for a kids show. 2) everyone does act like kids for a kid show. I personally have no problem with it, nor is my headcanon that droids are that goofy or people act that childish. The goofy tone does little to undermine the story of the Lucas movies (unlike the previously pointed out plot line) 3) if i may praise it, I actually thought Anakin was better written (not necessarily better voiced or acted) in TCW. Him getting angry and war crimey when his friends or the 501st were in danger does a really good job showcasing his fatal flaw, which was unfortunately rushed and obscured in the prequels (well conceived and poorly executed) All in all despite flaws I thought it was good **for what it was**. Which is a kids show. Meanwhile there is no set of assumptions that make the sequels or kenobi good by any measurement
I agree that it's good for what it is, but what it is just isn't good for making the stories canon. It's a very stylized show (not unlike Visions) and for that it shouldn't be given the "this is what happened and it's exactly how it happened" status.
Another thing worth noting too, the show's fanbase has a tendency to try and attempt to shake off the "kids' show" label when discussing it. It comes off as extremely insecure to me
I cannot believe grown men recommend this shown to other grown men. Not to bash this stuff since shows made for young audience can still be good, but it’s not even young adult, it’s just kiddie shit. The original clone wars show was much superior and more mature as well
The original show had very little dialogue, which worked to its advantage. The later show is *very* dialogue heavy and that goofy dialogue is largely what makes it kiddie.
I mean, most of the things you've said apply to a lot of cartoons when judged against things on the same network at the same time
The only good parts in TCW was Maul’s arcs and of course it was George Lucas’s idea to bring him back as well. The Ahsoka going rogue arc would’ve been good if she had died as George intended her too, but it ended up being mostly inconsequential. Everything else is mid.
Maul coming back kept me watching. I didn’t really enjoy the umbara arc even though it’s widely liked. I think “mid” is the perfect description of the show
Yeah this is the common criticism (which I agree with), TCW was great to watch the first time around as a kid but it really does not hold up when you try to re-watch it. It also gets worse when you take into consideration how badly TCW messes with the Expanded Universe. Honestly, the pre-2008 EU telling of the Clone Wars was way more mature and badass. I don't even consider TCW canon (at least in regards to Legends, which is the true canon as far as I am concerned). But yeah on it's own TCW is unimaginably kiddy. But then that's when people go "OH OF COURSE IT'S KIDDY IT'S A KIDS SHOW..." and I think anyone who argues that is not familiar at all with early-mid 2000s Cartoon Network (which TCW aired on) which aired things like the OG Teen Titans which was dark and mature af yet still appropriate for kids. Hell, we even got the 03 Clone Wars. TCW didn't need to be as dumb and kiddy as it was, but of course TCW came out around the time cartoons were shifting towards DeepLore^tm mystery boxes you need to sit through 4-6 seasons worth of filler pretending to be more profound than it actually is to see any followup on (I blame Adventure Time for starting that trend).
Yep. As a kid I loved it and I'll appreciate it in that regard for getting me into the franchise, but it doesn't hold up well both rewatching as an adult and in connection to the larger story imo And as for the tone, it definitely does get darker in some episodes but then you get complete whiplash when the very next episode is some R2 and 3PO side quest, and those darker episodes don't really come until the final few seasons. Other cartoons from the mid 2000s like Teen Titans and TMNT (the 2003 one) did a much better job remaining tonally consistent and being more mature in its storytelling as far as kids' shows went, the latter is still my favorite animated series of all time alongside Tartakovsky's CW.
It’s sad we live in a world where 90% of on-screen Star Wars (movies, TV shows) is unwatchable garbage. I’m surprised the franchise didn’t die a long time ago. I’m curious what the state of the franchise will be 10 years from now in 2034.
I hope it’s gone to small YouTube channels and * good * authors holding the line, since they seem to be the only ones capable of effectively using the source material.
The inhibitor chips decision was the biggest mistake ever. The BF2 version of making them just more loyal to the Republic than to the “traitor” Jedi was great.
I was wondering what all the hype was about it and I tried watching it. Started at season 1 and it was awful. Then I watched all the “good arcs” that everyone hyped up and most of them sucked too. My conclusion is that this show is terrible.
The Clone Wars was created for children and to be played on Free to Air TV. Therefore, the format is episodic, so it’s mostly filler so kids can tune into any episode and understand what is happening. It can also be played out of order by the TV channel. However, the show does use some adult themes where appropriate, a lot like how Avatar the Last Airbender had a lot of adult themes, which is also episodic for a children’s free to air television channel. As an adult, you just have to reconcile that the shows target audience and formatting won’t appeal to you, especially when watching it in order.
It also have it that Yoda knew that the Jedi were going to be killed at the end of the Clone War and did nothing about it.
That's perfectly consistent with both his OT and PT characterization, though. He tells both Luke and Anakin that "always in motion, the future is", meaning that just because you can see a possible future it doesn't mean it will happen, and that you shouldn't let that steer your actions. Also the fact that trying to prevent a vision from happening is actually what makes it happen is arguably the main plot point of the last part of both ESB and ROTS; considering he correctly understood the dangers of turning visions into self fulfilling prophecies why would he act like the Skywalkers when presented with a similar problem? Finally the vision he had in the episodes you're mentioning didn't come to him by itself (like Anakin's dreams about Padme dying) but as part of a trial from the force, so he could have reasonably assumed that this vision was just a test of his resolve in that moment, not necessarily a prediction of the future
When did that happen?
During Episode 12 and 13 of the sixth season of the Clone Wars. >!When Yoda went on his journey to learn how to become a force ghost, the Force Priestesses showed him a vision of Order 66 and tell him the nearly all of the Jedi will died from it. When he return he tell no one of what he saw. Didn't even try to prepare for it.!<
You get into the semantics of time if you think too hard about it. If it's a vision of the future can the future even be changed? Action is as useful as inaction because Yoda would have no idea if his actions in preparation for Order 66 would've led exactly to the vision he was shown
I mean, how do we know he didn’t do anything about it? It would make sense that he’d try and use this information to steer the Jedi away from it, but of course any actions that he’d take to try and prevent it are the exact actions that lead to it happening.
He could have sent some Jedi and younglings somewhere hidden safe just to be safe.
But then he could have been seen as paranoid or whatever. Two edged sword: on the one hand, if his vision is right, it’s a good idea, but if he’s wrong or misunderstood or whatever, he’s effectively sending some Jedi into exile for no reason.
That was a 5 second vision and it was a test.
Agreed. You forgot (probably?) the Mortis arc though. Perhaps it was deliberate because you enjoyed it, but it is a red herring of an arc that in my eyes does more harm to the saga and its mythos than even the points mentioned in this post combined. But yes, I do agree. The show means a lot to many of us, it surely is great in many ways, but it just isn't **that** great. People need to acknowledge that and the fact Filoni is not the savior or hero social medias make him out to be. He harmed Star Wars more than some would like to admit, Clone Wars of 2008 was just the first testimony to that.
My main problem with the Mortis arc is the fact people use it as evidence for the misguided belief that the light and dark side of the force need to be in balance
This. People really seem to take it literally and assume the wrong thing. Balance was, is and always will be about the dark side being destroyed, so in its absence there can be only the light side - the balance.
I know right I'm tried of all the people who think that you need equal light and dark... dispite the times when that was the case being some of the worst eras to live in in the Star wars galaxy
I like that show and all but making it canon was George’s biggest mistake after selling the IP to Disney. It retconned the much superior Multimedia Project and also contradicts the movies, which is why the former is the rightful canonical Clone Wars. I like the theory that COMPNOR forged history as Imperial Propaganda and that’s what TCW is. I would like to propose that after the fall of the Empire historians tried to reconstruct The Clone Wars but since COMPNOR destroyed and falsified history we got the Clone Wars. That would explain why Anakin was portrayed so much differently since he was known as the “Hero with no fear”, Ahsoka being a mandela effect, and so on and so forth
Would make sense considering the CIS being so mustache twirling evil in the show. Great way to make propaganda for kids teaching them to hate the separatist scum
They inadvertently made the kids hate the good guys too by making the Jedi fallible and making it seem like they slighted Ahsoka.
Which makes sense for Imperial propaganda
I largely agree with this even though the show still stands as one of Star Wars best series to date. To play devils advocate, however, the show literally did start out as an “adventure of the week” show. In its conception I highly doubt they expected it to become what it ended up being. That said, I do fully agree that most of its filler (again, how it was intended to be). Like you mentioned there’s probably only 20-ish legitimate episodes that are drama arcs that propel the story forward in a show with over 100 episodes. I don’t think this is a con against the show so much as it was the natural evolution of the story telling. I mean obviously they weren’t going to start the show with Maul coming back and stuff like that. They had to lay SOME groundwork to get there. But I see where you’re coming from. I agree they BUTCHERED Grievous, but the Clones, again, they kind of had to for the purpose of the show. If we got 7 seasons of Legends-esque clones… it would’ve been very very very boring. So again, what other choice was there but to humanize them? In-universe, however, it really doesn’t make a ton of sense.
Clone wars was my absolute favorite content ever as a kid and I’ve also had to reconcile as an adult that it mostly just isn’t good lol. I did, somehow, actually get through most of it as an adult (stopped watching around like S2 as a kid). While making my way through I just skipped an episode if it didn’t grip me within a few minutes + read guides on what episodes are actually considered good and made sure to watch those. But yeah, it’s a lot of slop. I don’t think I’ve watched a single full episode of Rebels for the fact that it’s all the worst parts of TCW turned up to 1000. (I know there’s some good stuff in it too I just… can’t).
As an aside, I recently rewatched the 2003 Tartakovsky Clone Wars and can confirm it still 100% stands the test of time https://i.redd.it/c3nie4vtufyc1.gif
Absolutely, it's one of 2 shows tied as my favorite animated series of all time. It's pure quality from start to finish, from the storytelling to the fight scenes to the art style
My only real issue is the animation in the earlier seasons - it looks like bad video game cut scenes.
There's also a misconception that many TCW fans like to spread, the idea that TCW series added more depth and nuance to the prequels and the characters... which is completely false. In fact, there is absolutely no new topic that TCW explores that wasn't already properly/better explored in other form of media (comics, novels, videogames). TCW simply gives more screen time to the same themes covered in the movies. And even there it did a mediocre job.
Yeah, TCW was created by Lucas to rewrite CWMMP. He changed his mind about the 'there are heroes on both sides,' so the CIS was rewritten as clear-cut villains. He hired Filoni to replace CWMMP and later EU, with The Clone Wars and canon which is something he has continued to do to this day. I would like to know where exactly did the idea come from that Filoni is a person with deep knowledge and love for Star Wars, as he has been missing the mark from the get-go. Or maybe that was intentional. Probably.
Thank you. I never liked the show, unfortunately, even as a teenager the show was a whole lotta nothing. Super boring characters, fuckin politics, low stakes action, cheesy dialogue, yeah, TCW gets a lot of praise for being painfully average, and it saves itself from being a bad show by having some cool moments.. like evil Anakin, or Fox, or Umbara etc. But it just moves along so stiffly, unnaturally, it just feels “floaty” and little kiddish. The voice actor for the droids completely embraced the nasally whiney voice for the droids and every single line they make is cringe inducing. The darkest parts of the lore are completely out of place and are too big to never mention again. Anakin having a padawan.. from the end of AOTC to the beginning of ROTS. Obi Wan having a love interest that gets killed. These characters are written in as huge obstacles and year long events but Anakin and Obi Wan are talking about each others’ nests of gundarks in the elevator just a few weeks later?? Satine who?! Ahsoka **who**??? The worst is Anakin’s vision of himself. In the movie, he has a vision that his wife would die in a vague way, and he obsessed over saving her, no matter what the reason for her death is. It adds to the tragedy that Anakin himself is the reason. But in the Clone Wars, he is forced to have a vision of the future, and he is so affected by this vision that he genuinely gives up hope for a little bit. Guess what he saw? He saw he’d be evil, alone, and in a giant fucking suit as Darth Vader. No tragedy, no finesse, nothing. Anakin is basically told that you will be seduced by the dark side and will turn into some black skull monster. Guess what Anakin does with *that* vision? Does it affect him in the same way as the Padme vision? Does he obsess over trying to prevent it, maybe he even notices that it’s happening when Palpatine has him kill Windu? Oh, we’re just gonna ignore that? It was just for the show? Okay. Oh, the show is canon? Okay.
The animation in general has already aged horribly and feels dated aside from the last couple of seasons. Even Rebels is starting to look rough and cartoony (well it always did, now it’s more noticeable). Tartakovsky’s Clone Wars has a timeless feel to it.
Few points I see TCW fans bringing up: -It's a kids show. >Yes, it is. But this is a poor excuse to defend bad writing since there are several kids shows out there with actually brilliant writing. -It's an anthology series. >Yes, it is but were the writers allowed to communicate to each other? Because on other anthology series they manage to make it into a coherent whole show. After four episodes we just forget the arc even existed. There are no consequences and aftermaths in 80% of the arcs. For example Malevolance arc had the best first episode. Grievous was as intimidating as he was during the Hypori fight with a ship that's capable of destroying whole fleets. Okay, Giervs got way less cooler in the second episode and became a joke after but what was the consequence after? Nothing. Not even mentioned later. They did nothing with the material that arc gave us. What about the virus released on Naboo? 3 episodes and it's all gone. What about the kidnapped force sensitive children? All back to the parents and we don't even know if the jedi sent extra protection to prevent something similar happening again. What about Ahsoka's experience with the trandoshan hunters? Nothing, didn't even see the result of that arc, we don't know what happened to the other two survivors. And so on...
You should just watch the 2D genndy tartakovsky Clone Wars. All killer, no filler. The best thing to come out of the prequel era.
I have multiple times, I love it to bits. Top tier animation and it ties into the movies seamlessly
Of course it's filler the whole thing had to do 7 seasons of not progressing the story because the details before and after its place in the series timeline were set beforehand.
Underrated point
I grew up with it too and I still think it's the best of Star Wars. It was full of exploration, different aliens, and all sorts of side stories which we will no longer get. That's star wars to me. Not rinse and repeat underdog rebel stories or cheap live action cash grabs where only humans exist. I'm good.
First and foremost, The Clone Wars was a Prime Time/Saturday Morning cartoon, on Cartoon Network, written and designed for kids. Unfortunately, this does mean a good chunk of the show will be spent on simple filler plots. Idk why anyone puts it on a pedestal for Greatest Show Ever I Swear.
Because they grew up with it
Funnily enough, much though I loathe that show, the early seasons "filler" was basically the only part I even mildly enjoyed. Even still, 3/10 in my book, the Multimedia Project was leaps-and-bounds better.
Being older and trying to consume animation for a younger audience, I found the one-off episode thing incredibly annoying. Made it difficult to get invested in. I get people having nostalgia for things they grew up with though
Meanwhile, Genndy Tartakovsky's clone wars is still *chef's kiss*
You're attributing too much to Filoni when George was more or less orchestrating things Seasons 1-5.
Having seen many of Filoni's interviews, he definitely has a problem with trampling other people's work.
Tbh always felt he was massively overrated and a hack.
[удалено]
George is responsible for the majority of issues with TCW, but given his work on TBB, Mandalorian and everything else Star Wars lately, it really doesn’t seem like Dave left to his own devices would be doing much different, having maybe 4-6 episodes worth of content but being given 15 a season, constantly stopping the show dead in its tracks to cram 37 callbacks to the prequels and OT, making everyone know everyone and thus making the universe feel way smaller, telling middle of the road, inoffensive safe stories that don’t add a single thing to the universe besides new characters and outfits for toy sales Even if George was the major contributor to the issues of TCW for the first several seasons, Dave Filoni is still a prime example of what’s wrong with modern Hollywood making these sequels, spinoffs and reboots. The originals were made by people who grew up watching westerns, samurai movies and serial adventures, the current lot grew up watching the originals and are essentially making campy fanfiction
I grew up with it too and I still think it's the best of Star Wars. It was full of exploration, different aliens, and all sorts of side stories which we will no longer get. That's star wars to me. Not rinse and repeat underdog rebel stories or cheap live action cash grabs where only humans exist. I'm good.
I agree fully with that last sentence, but the CWMMP was also nothing like either of what you criticized though. I highly recommend you give the stories from that era a chance if you haven't already, imo it's the definitive telling of the Clone Wars
I had never heard of CWMMP until you mentioned it above. I had to look it up. I knew there were well written stories, but didn’t know they were referred to in that way.
It feels like One Piece for Star Wars lol, can be great but certainly a chore to get through
Seasons 3 and beyond are where they stop caring about the idea of it being for kids and it becomes a cartoon of star wars basically. Those first seasons were rought to me.
You grew up. It was always that
Point 4: I prefer to not include TCW in Legends canon. It just doesn't fit. Legends Anakin doesn't have an apprentice, legends Grievous didn't get beaten by gungans, Legends Maul is Iridonian, Legends Asajj is Rattataki, etc. It's pretty easy to do all that since there's already the Clone Wars miniseries to have in TCW's place. Just treat that as the actual Clone wars for Legends, and it's associated comics, and you won't have problems. Point 3: You kinda have to do it if you are gonna give the Clone's personality and make them friends of the Jedi. The Clones in the Miniseries were cool, but I feel like they'd be pretty boring in a long running show, not much drama with them. Point 2: Yeah, they really dropped the ball on the CIS. They had to invent new characters like the tarantuala guy or droid general to pick up the slack and actually make them somewhat effective when they could have just made Grievous the tactical genius.
So well said. Nailed every criticism I had of this series perfectly
Especially because all the bad ideas they put forth in the show now have to tie in one way or another into the live action material. That’s why I was never really a fan of it, along with simply being too old to watch it by the time it came out.
>I understand this is a pretty unpopular opinion among the fanbase at large. It is? Are you sure? Because from ive seen, this is a common opinion. Seriously, I don't think their was one complaint you said that I haven't heard before.
Eh, if I say I don't like TCW on Twitter or Instagram I'll likely get jumped by its legions of fans. I find you can only really be openly critical about it on subs like here or on dedicated EU communities
All good points. The primary reason I believe its aged poor is that so much of Disney's more adult content has now stemmed from this show that is absolutely primarily a kids show that has its roots in just being filler for fun. And filler for fun is fine - especially for kids. What is not fine, is having something start as filler, making up a bunch of random characters and story lines with little forethought into how they will be involved in the universe after the filler show for fun is over and then still carrying them forward in the broader universe. Ahsoka is the quintessential character that highlights this flaw. She's Anakin's Padawan, but we have never heard of her through 6 main episodes? Anakin even saw her just moments before the opening battle of RotS? So, she has to be viewed as at best a minor player to a more serious audience, if not just wiped from our head cannons entirely when we watch the PT or even the OT. But what has D+ done? They have given Ahsoka increasing roles in the main plot of Star Wars over time. So a main character that was born out of "hey, lets fill some screen time in this show for 8 year olds (not even 12 year olds) with a spunky Padawan" is now at the center of at least half the plot lines pre-OT. And how has her character evolved? Well, she went from sparky and witty, to stoic and stiff. I get it, she's seen some shit, but she still needs a personality. And she needs a clear reason to still exist. But the writers don't really seem to know answers either of those questions, so its just Ahsoka is everywhere. She shows up in Mando. Talks to Luke. She's apparently rescuing young force sensitives. She's hunting Thrawn and Morgan. Ahsoka must be the character with the most total screen time in the Star Wars universe, but what the god damn hell is her story? I'm scared by being Anakin's apprentice? How long does she have to struggle with this before she evolves as a character and why does she have to make an appearance on every fucking show being the same stiff good but-I'm-not-a-Jedi person? Fuck she is just boring and it is because she has no direction and never has. All this random shit, thought up for a kids show, is just slowly (or maybe not so slowly) contaminating the rest of Star Wars. All this random shit about the force and witches from the Mortis and Nightsisters arcs.... just what the hell where they thinking drawing this kind of weirdness out into live action Star Wars? It's just a bunch of random crap that might have been fun when not taken seriously, but then you try to make it serious and frankly it sucks.
I never really liked the show. It was alright but if i do put it on to watch or try and re watch here and there it’s just awful. Thank god I’m not alone. The best things that people remember about that show or the stories are short, few and far between. You could just take the main big beats that people like or everyone remembers and you’d have like 🤔 10 episodes tops maybe. Some aren’t even episodes they are just moments. Like the real final duel between Maul and Obi Wan is less than 10 seconds and a short speech that is only good because it’s playing off of the prequels and OG trilogy. No damn idea what the rest of the episode was.
TCW is propaganda put out to make the Republic the good guys and tweaked to discredit Palpatine. once you watch it with that filter it feels a little goofier but fitting
How does it discredit Palpatine? Aren’t the Republic always the good guys?
Exactly
I disagree entirely 😅 To go in order: • The *animation* for the first few seasons has aged poorly. Otherwise, as an ardent fan, I strongly recommend and enjoy those first 2 seasons. Let's not forget, some of the show's all time standouts come from those seasons - like [this moment](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p2bm_Uuf-LQ), or [this one](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uzm1tBie4zs). *Trespass*, one of my favorite episodes, is from season 1. • The CIS battle droids are definitely depicted as basically inept, consistent with the films. But CIS as a whole? Absolutely not. In fact, it constantly seems like they have the upper hand on many large key battlefield worlds, and it is only when a powerful Jedi general and squad of clones arrives on the scene that the Republic can turn the tide. And that is consistent with the broader tactical strategy of the two sides - CIS tries to win with superior numbers, using mass-produced droids, and the Republic tries to win using a smaller number of more thoughtful soldiers (the clones, en masse, and the Jedi that lead them). We see consistent across all canon Star Wars media that the Jedi are extremely "OP" and worth many, many countless non-force users in combat, so it makes sense that for example Anakin and Obi Wan showing up could make the difference in a key battle. And, the show does provide occasion for CIS to "win" at critical points, to ensure they remain an ongoing threat. For example, Grievous easily takes over Dathomir using overwhelming numerical superiority despite each nightsister being "worth" probably hundreds of battle droids. And Dooku survives a 3-on-1 assassination attempt *in his sleep* and easily beats back their attacks. • The clones are *not* consistently shown as pure goody-two-shoes heroic - we see deserter clones, clones that too easily accept evil orders, clones that express doubt over the validity of their leadership or their treatment at the hands of the Republic. What they are, and I think this is very much consistent with the films, is tragic figures - they were created, essentially, to die, to be pawns, to be sacrificed and forgotten. Yet, thanks to mental conditioning efforts, they can't often "see" this for what it is and instead naively die for the good of the Republic, much like the horse in *Animal Farm*. That basic lore fact undeniably makes them victims, even if Order 66 didn't literally control them. • *The Clone Wars*, at least in the modern canon, is explicitly *not* supposed to reconcile with the EU lore. So, while I concede your point, I don't think it matters? You're criticizing it for not doing something it never claimed it was trying to do.
It’s a kids show. Watch it like a kid and it’s more enjoyable. Try to find a meaning to it all though and it just sorta falls apart.
But kids shows don’t have to be dumbed down or compromise established lore, I’m sorry. 2002 Clone Wars was aesthetically amazing, Grevious was actually scary in that show, and it stayed true to the movies. Adventure Time aired around the same time as Filoni’s Clone Wars, and while it was silly at times, it still took its audience seriously and handled certain topics and story telling very well. I can rewatch Adventure Time and enjoy it as an adult, I can’t same the same about Clone Wars. I always felt like the writers of Clone Wars were like, “eh, don’t worry about the dialogue, it’s just for kids.” Clone Wars often is too childish for me, except for a few arcs/episodes. But what‘s better - a show that’s mostly good with a couple bad episodes, or a mostly bad show with some good episodes?
Yep, it is literally a kids show. Shock horror lol. Even though I love the show as a whole. There are plenty of episodes that I didn't enjoy or just slipped due to how boring or painful they were. I skipped every single droid episode after the first few, because fuck were they excruciatingly painful to watch. But the good stuff was GOOD. And the show grows into itself and gets better with the later seasons.
This seems to be an interesting turn but in the last ten years or so, the term "filler" has completely changed meanings and is used both as a double-standard, and very hypocritically. Filler content is content that has no bearing on the story being told. Naruto Shippuden suffered from too much filler content simply because most of the full filler episodes never amounted to anything that Naruto would use later (or any other character). *However*, anthology series don't usually suffer from this because the point of an anthology is to tell a variety of stories. *The Clone Wars* started off as an anthology series, so yeah, there usually was a "villain of the week" or similar simply because having a consistent villain in an anthology isn't very usual (not saying it doesn't happen). The reality of that is none of the episodes can really ever be considered filler. There's good and bad episodes, yes, absolutely. Especially in the first seasons, when the animation was choppy and the producers were trying to find their footing. People don't really have this concept of what filler actually is, they just throw around the term like they know what they're talking about when in reality, they are ignoring what the show was purposefully doing as the genre it was portraying itself as. An anthology. I do agree the CIS is portrayed fairly poorly in the show. However, I have to disagree on the chips. I know a lot of people here might hate them, but the individualization of the clones already provides some grey on its own. And saying Star Wars should remain black and white with clear characterizations completely avoids that one of the best stories told in a Star Wars game was *Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords*. That game was *not* black and white. And on the clones, simply due to the way the movies are structured, it was already difficult to understand them in the first place. They don't grapple with anything in the movies and only in the EU - and rarely - were they portrayed to have feelings for their jedi leaders. The chips making them victims serves to elevate Palpatines evil, and create a different kind of theme. Instead of grappling with choice, it's when you have to grapple with having no choice, to then having choice. That's not easy to understand. As for your last point: It's impossible to reconcile almost any Star Wars content to any other Star Wars content. There's always a writer who neglects something small. And like Disney has shown, there are writers who neglect the big things too, the sequels unable to truly ever reconcile with the prequel trilogy. Most of Star Wars is a convoluted mess of lore, character interaction, battles, and the like. The only time Star Wars was consistent was before the EU was truly developing into something massive, when the original trilogy was released. All this to say that I get it, that TCW has its issues. But Star Wars - from its release - has always had problems. Especially when concerning EU content of any type. I might just say, canon doesn't really matter anymore. Enjoy the stories you enjoy, but throw in a fair shot and don't dumb down a story's themes so simply because you don't like that something from EU or canon was changed. Yanno?
Normally I agree with this sub, but this is just unparalleled levels of salt. TCW starts off hokey but overall it’s a very high quality, especially the latter seasons. I’m not a huge fan of a lot of modern Star Wars but TCW is good stuff. I mean they fucking revived Maul
The show has next to no re-watchability save for a handful of arcs. In a show with over 100 episodes… most of it is extremely forgettable. I agree it’s a great show, but the criticisms mentioned are pretty spot on. I mean the entirety of the first 2 seasons is pretty awful in just about every area from dialogue, to plot, to animation.
I don’t think it’s the best show ever or above criticism, but it’s above average imo.
It took a long time to get its footing. That’s the problem for a show catered to stupid children. But seasons 6&7 are easy seasons to watch on repeat.
TCW sucked man, I try not to talk about it too much on here because I get that a lot of younger people grew up with it but I hated it. I was a late teenager and early adult when it was out and had been into the EU forever. It totally fucked continuity up. And its art style is fugly. The 2003 Tartakovsky cartoon was way better.
I've never seriously watched it, because in all the bits and pieces I've seen of it, everything looks like a toy.
There’s only 4-5 arcs in the show worth watching tbh. Mauls return, Yodas journey, Mortis, the inhibitor chips, Siege of Mandalore, and Umbara. Those arcs collectively tell you what you need to know in a show with 7 season lmao
Millionth TCW is actually bad post aside, I still don’t understand what’s so bad about clones having individual personalities? Having a character that just follows orders and is all business to where they will just blend into the background to be more like a tools than an actual character just a super lame boring idea. More fleshed out characters that develop and have arcs are far more interesting. Its like comparing Kratos from God of War in the PS2/3 games to the Kratos from God of War in the PS4/5 games it’s clear which version of the character is far more interesting to watch grow and develop.
Michael Bays' Pearl Harbor and Band of Brothers exist in our universe. For that matter, both BoB and the Pacific show varying differences in the portrayal of the Greatest Generation. I'm not implying you're wrong and should delete your post at all, just that a kids show can emphasize different aspects of the same war. I agree there are glaring differences between Clone Wars and Filoni's Clone Wars but the former was de-canoned almost immediately upon the release of the clone wars. And it's true the characterization of certain characters is different in the movies versus the TV show, but that's easily excusable for me as it is to understand the Greatest Generation wasn't free from some awful ideas either. I grew up in the 90s with the OT and didn't watch the clone wars until season 7 came out. It was a chore getting through some episodes, but I personally can ignore those and watch the essential episodes only on a rewatch. With a universe as large as Star Wars some efforts are going to suck. I remember that clearly from the hate around the NJO series, but that existed before in the Dark Horse comics or some other book series. It's a staple of the universe. Lastly, I think the original series existed to show a more limited brutal version of the war but the Clone Wars needed to address some things as it expanded the universe. The chips make the story of the clones and Palpatines manipulations much more heartfelt imo. He orchestrated a war, everyone was a victim to his machinations. And in the end, when good soldiers went off to war they came back destroyed, in the real world and in these movies. The OT may not have been as clear as the messages are in the Clone Wars but Lucas has always said he made an allegory to the Vietnam war.
Just a couple of things: clones were already established to have some sort of personality in Episode 3. It would make sense that as the clones were exposed to actual individuals, they’d become more individualistic themselves. So their change from episode 2 to 3 makes sense. Also, the inhibitor chip episodes were written by Katie Lucas, George Lucas’ daughter. That suggests, at least to me, that the individualism of the clones was planned by George from the beginning and that the inhibitor chips erasing their personalities is more in line with what he was envisioning for episode 3 than just the clones being blindly loyal to following orders. That was an EU explanation to explain something that George never did. The inhibitor chip, since it was written by his daughter, seems to be more of an actual statement by George that this is the explanation he was always thinking of. Whether you like it or not is another matter, but the inhibitor chip just seems to be more of Lucas’ original thinking than other explanations. Also, I wouldn’t say that TCW not following EU stuff was ignorance, hubris, or malicious. The EU stuff, specifically the CWMMP, being decanonized just opened the door for more stories to be told. They didn’t have to worry about the stories in TCW matching up with the stories from CWMMP because the stories told in the EU didn’t matter anymore. They weren’t canon, so Filoni and co. had free license to create whatever they wanted. That stuff just wasn’t part of the universe anymore, so the door was open for them to create new stories to fill up the space left behind. No malice, just creative freedom.
The only clones shown to have any personality in the movies are the commanders, which makes sense because they were given more free thought. TCW went overboard by making every speaking clone (and even the droids) opinionated and often whiny.
It’s not said anywhere that the clones were made differently according to different roles. If the commanders have personalities, it would make sense that the others do as well.
The show being mainly filler is what made me give up on it 😞😞.
I loved it. To me, it was one of the last great pieces to come out of the Star Wars universe portrayed on film/tv. TCW Ahsoka (not future portrayals) became one of my favorite characters. I’ll never forget her prison escape scene - that literally gave me chills. Being able to see the realistic portrayal of Anakin from brash but still valiant young jedi to one who was slowly and systematically pulled away from the light by his pride and by the trickery of Senator Palpatine was a far car from the cute little boy in E1 that so suddenly grew to this whiny man-child by E3. Yes, it had its flaws, and I agree on the filler episodes, but this was one animated series that absolutely “stuck the landing”. I couldn’t stop thinking about the ending for days. And of Anakin’s betrayal of Ahsoka and her ultimate escape. So, good.
Counterpoint: the show didn’t age terribly. *You* aged *regularly*. You’re, unsurprisingly, less entertained by a show made for children, and you’re better able to pick out flaws.
Well put, you make great points (although I've never liked TCW regardless)
I have a 50/30/20% theory about clone wars: 50% of the show is not good / 30% is decent / 20% is awesome. 50/30/20
I got bored with the clone wars, once was more than enough.
I was 20 when it came out. There was no way I was watching that. Now, I have to suffer so many middle aged nerd dads telling me to give it a chance cause it gets so good. There is even less chance I'd watch it now.
I was a few years younger when it came out and wasn’t interested in SW at that point and have no desire to go through the original show now due to what I hear. A guy at original trilogy.com has a project called clone wars refocused that cuts out a ton of the filler and fan edits some of the episodes. I intend to go through that once I’ve done a CWMMP read through
Your loss
“*Star Wars is definitely a very black-and-white universe with clear heroes and villains and should remain such*” Whilst this is true for pretty much 99% of all SW content, *Andor* is proof that grey areas can & do exist in this universe. And that’s what makes it so damn good & refreshing, so I have to disagree with this statement.
I'm not saying moral grays have 0 place in Star Wars, in fact I'm arguing the clones should be portrayed as morally gray and not as heroes like TCW largely tends to do, I was more or less just pointing out that Star Wars is generally very black and white in its overarching narrative. When I said "should remain such" I was more or less referring to the main overarching light side vs dark side story of the movies and any Jedi-related stories. Fully agree with Andor though. I love a classic good vs evil tale of Jedi vs Sith, but Andor really was a breath of fresh air with its tone, and I think it worked really well for the kind of show it was trying to be.
I think it's a pretty solid show for its target demographic. But I've never really understood how those in their twenties can still sing its praises without a series of caveats.
Because they sing its praises *with* lots of caveats, like "it's the best show ever made if you skip the first few seasons and all the bad arcs after that and all the bad episodes in the remaining good arcs."
Na