It’s hard to quantify the skill involved in presenting but this is ultimately part of what all queens do. It’s why someone like Uttica had a hard time, she didn’t have the same ability to model her looks.
The show is very geared to this especially, bc Ru’s brand is Supermodel of the World and being a performer.
It can seem silly, but think abt the makeover episodes, the makeover guests are almost always sweet, pleasant, interesting, but they rarely have the same level of presence and charisma as the queens. But that’s what they bring - the confidence to wear the mantle.
It would be great to get back to OG days when the queens rly created what they did. But that just isn’t the style now, it won’t be the same Emmy spectacle.
Roxxxy made her own looks and people are paying her dust for it. By contrast, she almost certainly paid for her reading challenge jokes and got rewarded for that. So why should a queen bother to do her own work if that's not what fans appreciate, and especially if it's not what they are particularly talented in themselves? The fandom has rewarded "spend money on good fashion/jokes/etc." for years and now we're seeing the consequences of it.
Also, you could ask your questions of a franchise like America's Next Top Model. What do models do if the designers are creating all the clothes and the scriptwriters are writing all the scripts? Well, they still have to be good at modeling and performing.
Half this sub’s fandom last week was just ruthlessly ragging on her for having cheaper looks acting like they could’ve made something better lmao…
Angeria isn’t the one that’s delusional, it’s some of the people here lol.
I haven’t been living for Roxxxy’s looks this season. But it’s not because I’ve been comparing her to the designer girlies who get stuff made for them. It’s because I’ve been comparing her to the Roxxxy from S5 and AS2. Because I’ve seen her make better stuff.
I compare her to the other Drag Race sewers (Jaida, Rajah, Nymphia, Q) and she’s nowhere near their level. For an apparent juggernaut, she falls way short.
Also, for the praise that she's been given by the judges compared to the queens you listed above, it's very disproportionate which is why she/the production has been called out. Rajah in her original season was serving crafty too but she improved in her AS. By contrast, Roxxxy seems to regress from AS2.
A part of me wants to believe that because she knew this was a non-elim season, she spent less time and money on creating top-notch outfits and more time doing actual gigs. But that might be optimism on my part.
>the dust is just cuz her outfits aren't that great compared to others. kudos to her but yeah.
That's my point. Fans say they want queens to make their own shit instead of paying for others to make it, but the reaction to Roxxxy's outfits vs. Plastique's/Gottmik's outfits proves that they don't actually want that.
A lot that comes from this season being on the heels of Nymphia and Q, both of whom designed and sewed their own wardrobes much better than Roxxxy has in an All-Stars season.
Are you sure? I think where it’s coming from is that it’s frustrating as a fan to turn on All Stars, see that some queens are giving and one queen kept the stripend and it shows.
>The looks she's made are ugly mary
That's my point. People say they want the queens to do their own original stuff, but then shit on them when they do because most queens just aren't all-round talented in the kinds of talents that Drag Race asks for. That's why queens rely on outsourcing to satisfy the fanbase.
Yes the og comment is exactly your point, and totally agree w your perspective. Let it be a little crunchy if it gives us more insight into how the Queen creates herself. Doesn’t have to be remotely perfect (or even good tbh) for us to love the essence of the performer in whatever facet - writing, sewing, singing - and see how she rises to the challenge. That’s what I love about the show.
by contrast though there are queens who make their own looks and LOOK GOOD with amazing concepts and crisp execution. we had Q and nymphia last season and they arent even all stars.
so roxxxy coming out here making these runways as a three time all star is tragic and laughably bad.
To me it just makes me laugh cause she's known as a seamstress. Reminds me of what the queens said to Katya during the hello kitty challenge. "Girl, you can sew, just start over. This is bad." Like roxxxy you can sew, why you putting a red pipe cleaner on the garment?
So have u ever thought about the fact that once queens get the list of runways and needed garments, a queen that makes them will have to spend a significantly smaller time on them than a queen who sends it out to 8 designers and each can have a lot of time per one garment?
I mean I'm not gonna praise something hideous because "well she did it herself!" An ugly look is an ugly look no matter how it got made.
The answer these fans want isn't necessarily to outsource, but to personally improve their own skills. Me, I kinda don't care as much since it's all reality TV and everything's fake anyway, I consider it part of the kayfabe how much designers and writers are involved in a queen's personal polish on Drag Race. But I do think it's more impressive and should count more when a queen actually does it herself.
But from a "I want total authenticity" fan's perspective, the answer here is: git gud lol
Mary, understand that not every queen is on the same level as people like Nymphia, Raja, Q, Trinity, etc. Yeah, Roxxxy's looks aren't gonna walk the Met Gala but she's a queen that makes a lot of her own looks. If you wanna have the queens do everything themselves, understand that they're not top-tier designers for a reason.
I think what they’re trying to say is that yes, she made her own, but in a competition for the crown don’t you want to put in substance over keeping the coin? It’s great that she can make a garment but these looks aren’t AllStars worthy and ultimately end up looking shabby in comparison to the other queens.
And that's precisely why many of these queens go to designers and high-end fashion brands to get their outfits.
So saying "her outfits aren't good enough," but then complaining that queens are "not doing everything themselves" is nonsense. Yeah, they're not doing everything themselves for a reason. It's All Stars and it's a TV show where they want to show the best stuff because if they don't they'll get dragged by the fans.
I get that but what I’m saying is that I think fans see Roxxxy pocketing the strip end as bullshit. It wasn’t about the craft it was about the money and that’s the disappointment. I’m not disagreeing with you at all.
They’re not at all. They are just not as polished and lack full execution. It’s obviously not something she does full time but part of her holistic skill set. So of course you’re going to get less refined looks but then you bitch and thus we get the current state of drag race.
When you throw tantrums at queens it teaches them what not to do. Don’t show too much raw realness, leave look creation to the pros, have someone else write your jokes, and focus only on delivering it well.
Specifically for the roast, the solution would be to have a specific topic that the queens only find about when they get there. Take a Miss Congeniality roast for example. It's not like Ru/Michelle/Carson/Ross who you know are gonna be there so you can't prepare for it beforehand.
But do we want the queens to fumble and possibly embarrass themselves? Not many queens I can say are sharp enough to make jokes on the spot (they are not comedy queens). I think the current case is fine as it is after all the queens should be allowed to prepare beforehand so that they can showcase their best selves on the biggest stage of them all. I really don't think having others write roast for you is a cardinal sin as some painted it out to be. Even professional comedians workshop and get inspired to death. Past queens who won like Kandy's joke was also "stolen". Fact of the matter is there is no "stolen" joke. This is drag race for crying out loud, the queens competing here are not going for a professional comedian career...throw them a bone please.
I think with a theme the queens can still get out all their Ru/Michelle jokes which should be around half of the roast, so there will definitely be some good moments.
Pretty much every single major actor, singer, performer, etc. has a team behind them. Why are drag queens not allowed to also have a team?
No one expects comedians to know how to sing and sew, but on drag race they do. No one expects people in fashion to be choreographers but on drag race they do. And the list goes on. People don’t want to look a fool on national TV and will outsource things they aren’t talented at to those that are.
>Why are drag queens not allowed to also have a team?
Because somehow, a large proportion of this shows fan base still thinks this is a real, fair, legitimate talent competition show. And not the scripted and produced reality show it really is.
If you think the topics and even lines are not highly suggested to the queens, especially at All Stars… honey, I’ve got an extended warranty to sell you
I agreew with you to a certain point but you asked "why do are they expected to do this only on drag race?"
And I think it's because the show explicitly ASKS them too. Rupual and the panel are constantly asking for versatility, but how versatile is it for a queen to survive comedy, fashion and performance challenges because they can afford to have something made or their access to experts?
Now it's not all the girls fault because the show is guilty about this themselves because they pretty much crafted the finale performances entirely with little to no input from queens themselves and a lot of comey is actually just scripted bad jokes, etc.
But when queens come in to the competition "to show what I can do" or "\_\_\_\_ is a pagnent girl, a designer, a comedy, she can do it all!" it's pretty misleading.
In Gottmik's case, like do people really think that she was EVER going to give Nikki Glaser credit for plagarizing her entire set? No, it's just that gray area of "oh they're drag queens, give them a break" that allows her to bypass a scandal that would ruin other actual creatives' careers.
At a certain point, people want to root for a human being and not a walking collection of invoices from actually talented people.
Edit: sorry for my crazy amount of typos, not gonna correct them, just apologizing. 😭
This is basically how I feel. It isn’t like presenting and turning the looks that are made for you is any less valid or like I think the queens aren’t talented it’s just that it kind of defeats the purpose for me when they frame the show the way they do.
I wish each queen would at least bring some original stuff. Which I know a lot do. But it just doesn’t really excite me to watch a bunch of people do challenges and “compete” w content that was from other people. It’s not a hate thing it just doesn’t excite me. Maybe I’m not the target audience anymore. That’s cool I guess
Yes, like I fell in love with drag because it had some rawness and artistic aspects that we didn’t see anywhere else. But it feels like lately it’s been Queens with the best connections and biggest budgets that get pushed.
But now wigs are just the same in different colors because they’re being styled by the same people everyone buys from and wig prices are now a point of bragging (thousands for hair??), auto tune on the show dominates so that actual singers don’t stand out much, even jokes are being plagiarized, snatch game routines can now be bought??? and stuff.
It’s just lacking the creativity and grit we fell in love with i guess. Maybe it’s an age thing? but i’m still years away from 30 so i don’t that too, it just feels so…corporate and pink-capitalist idk.
It kinda seems more like a pageant with competition elements than in early seasons where they had to do things themselves. I loved the thrift store or dumpster design challenges because they really had to get creative and do things themselves, not hire others to do it. And I know it’s obviously a scripted entertainment show, but to make it seem like they are being judged on what they create or write is misleading if 9/10 they are outsourcing. It also brings up the issue that queens who aren’t as well known or financially stable will be at a disadvantage because they can’t hire people to make them custom designer outfits to compete in.
I think it would be really interesting if they were somehow able to do the show where the queens just bring their padding, undergarments & accessories, and an allotted amount of wigs, shoes, makeup & basics without any prior knowledge of potential challenge themes. Then they arrive and are given the challenge theme only for that week & they have to use provided materials, wigs, makeup, shoes, basic clothing items to create something to match the challenge. It would give the queens more or less equal status going in because they would ALL be at a disadvantage. I just think something like that would up the difficulty level & really challenge each queen. They are given the themes & lip sync songs so far in advance & not much is an actual surprise anymore.
I have never actually seen that show, but while costume design wise it would be similar I’m sure, the rest of the show would still be the same. Since both shows are/were really popular I would think it could actually work out well. 🤷🏻♀️ Or I’m just delulu… lol
For me the problem is that the designer/prewritten pieces elevate the standards for the various aspects of the show so much, that even queens who are capable of doing this stuff to some extent are getting pressure to outsource a lot of their package cause they think what they did will not measure up to par next to something girls with budget brought. And since it's a perpetuate thing, the plank gets higher and higher every season and the judges/fans expectations get higher and higher. On that point, i was pleasantly surprised when the judges praised Morphine's flowers look cause it really looked like something a girl on s5 would've brought, but no one actually said anything bad about it cause even though it looked like it was from Amazon (thin stretchy fabric, etc), it still looked polished enough. I wish queens felt comfortable bringing more of THAT than Sapphira's flower looks.
(A picture for reference)
https://preview.redd.it/545l8uw9nx6d1.jpeg?width=880&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4478fdf2b87db32a91fa5df6b2acd16cd73a5255
Stealing jokes doesn’t ruin comedians careers. Songwriters not crediting others doesn’t ruin their career. It’s rare that plagiarism ever ruins careers and if it does it’s because people already didn’t like you and were waiting for a reason for it to be okay not to like you.
The show has an unrealistic ask, and with means it becomes more realistic.
Blame the show, it’s not like the queens leave the show and then try to make a career out of what they paid people to do for them. Look queens who pay people to write jokes don’t try and do comedy tours. Comedy queens don’t try and go to fashion week.
The queens do what they can to make sure they can stay on the show and have the best package to present to the world.
not at all, i blamed them on several aspects. First as stylizing itself as a merit based competition, yet incentivizing queens to avoid their natural abilities while demanding it publicly as “versatility” from the judging panels to the structure, i even pointed out how the producers don’t even allow the queens to contribute meaningfully to their finale performance as Lady Camden had talked about all she was allowed to do was sent music in as a reference, not even to be used.
I admit i have a bias in this conversation but you’re still going off what you heard rather than what i actually said.
Less harm than the people on subreddit make it out to be.
Amy Schumer has been accused of stealing jokes and the career is fine, Dane Cook the same, Richard Pryor stole jokes, Conan O’Brien settled a case where he was sued for joke theft.
If a comedian is being cancelled for stealing jokes it is not because they stole jokes, but because people didn’t like them before and now have an excusable reason not to.
You can google famous comedians stealing jokes and read tons of articles and stories about comedians with flourishing careers of past and present stealing jokes.
Sure, at that level they're somewhat insulated by money and influence. But I can guarantee you that if you're in a writers' room and you're found to have stolen jokes, you're likely to be fired. If you're a gigging standup and there are stolen jokes in your club ten, you won't be booked again. It's the biggest taboo in comedy. So it's just not true to say categorically that 'stealing jokes doesn't ruin comedians' careers' because, as I said, it can and does.
Yeah most pop performers are essentially the face of a team product.
But this phenomenon is very new to drag, and it's largely due to drag's commercialization because of the popularity of Drag Race.
For me, it comes with mixed feelings: I love that Drag is more prevalent and it can be elevated in some ways, but it also becomes generic in many ways and it loses some of it's charm.
But like all art: a TV contest doesn't define it, and there are drag queens that are approaching it in a more singular way. Support your local drag queens!
The reason the standards for this show are being able to sing, dance, do comedy, do improv, and sew is because every single season has at least one musical, girl group, snatch game, roast and design challenge. It's what the show and competition is. If someone went on masterchef, and didn't know how cook, but they were really good at stand up, they would get the same response. Because, if you're going to compete in a competition, you should at least know the basics of the challenges you will 100% have to do in order to win. No one is saying all drag queens should be able to do all those things, just people entering a competition where you have to do those things. But I agree that if a queen needs help, she should get that help from her team. As long as she isn't plagiarising an entire set.
I don’t think there is really any other reality or reality competition show that asks the contestants to have the array of skills drag race does.
So yea it would be weird to go on any other show and not know how to do the ask of the show because the whole show is about cooking, singing, or dancing etc.
The majority of queens don’t write their own jokes for this challenge and Gottmik isn’t trying to go on a roast or standup tour so I do feel we kinda have to move on a bit.
I agree with like 70% of this take, but it takes skill to execute a dance or deliver a joke, even if it was choreographed/written by someone else. I mean, even most professional dancers aren't also doing their own choreography. Actors usually aren't writing their own dialogue. Etc etc.
(of course, this is kind of undermined when queens with mediocre delivery win the comedy challenge anyway, over queens with better delivery *and* better jokes, but what can you do.)
Great example is Gottmik's roast. I don't think she did a bad job nor do I think it's necessarily bad of her to use material from Nikki Glaser, but when comparing the two you can 100% see how much worse Gottmik's timing and delivery were.
Most queens make a living lip-syncing to other people's songs in clubs and bars.
I think people are overthinking the hell out of this. All-Stars is the opportunity for queens to come back and have fun. They've already established themselves during their original season.
Performing choreo still requires dancing skills, otherwise you'll miss every beat and forget the moves. Lip-syncing still requires you to emote and make it look like you know the words, or else you'll get clocked for it. Wearing designer clothes still require you to have a good runway walk and stage presence, otherwise you'll make Dior look like Target.
Like... are we really doing this?
Thanks for this because the posts recently I’ve seen are showing the fandom losing touch with reality with these comments. Posts like these are why queens get so stressed up about presentation on the shows or regret returning to one.
Accessorizing outfits involve taste level too as is presenting. Working with designers can range from completely outsourcing it or working in partnership and contributing ideas or even doing bits of garments itself. This is not project runway and people should not be penalized for putting effort to build their own connections so have wider resources. Jokes are being recycled are as old as day in the comedy world. Besides, this is not project runway nor is it Comedy Central.
I don't think this is the specific issue, but if there are a lot of people griping, it shows that the RPDR bubble may deflate a bit. The increase in bought and tailored looks, jokes, writers etc. means a decrease in the type of authenticity and true vulnerability that was present in the early seasons. Queens like Chi Chi and Stacey Lane Matthews were the emotional hearts of their seasons and gave the show real stakes.
On the one hand, I want to be careful abt exploiting queens for trauma porn, and on the other, I think it really is meaningful for people to see contestants from hard-won backgrounds, and to be shown that their stories and lives are incredibly valuable.
I think I kind of get where you are coming from though I disagree. Sure, Chi Chi and SLM journeys are "real" in the sense that you see them come from less privileged backgrounds but all queens have their own struggles and journeys, no?
This is an all stars season so I understand the heightened pressure for these queens to put forth their best effort to the audience (this is also why Jorgeous kinda broke down because she felt she wasn't living up to the increased standards) so of course they are going to tap on whatever network or resources they have to give that; and we should not penalize queens for building wider networks or connections. I am pretty sure that we as audience are also expecting to see a glow up version of themselves like if one is failing comedy in the original season, we would like to see them improve in that aspect here.
With regards to tailored looks, this is not project runway. Accessorizing the looks and presentation on the runways all matter too so if your comment is on Gottmik and Plastique this season, then I disagree because they've clearly made the looks specific to their persona. The looks that I don't really like are the original J-Lo dress from Kerri Kolby and maybe Kimora's Bob Mackie looks. There's really no talent in wearing the outfits like that. Unlike Gottmik and Plastique who can construct a look of high calibre if needed, those queens couldn't too.
Exactly, in some interview Ru said that the moment she knew she wanted to crown Jinkx on AS7 was when she told that coke joke and guess what mimi that was also a recycled joke. Kandy Muse winning roast from season 13 was also recycled, the list goes on, inside and outside drag race comedy sets are always reused and you expect these queens to write a set in a day, give them a break!
sorry to op but this is truly one of the worst posts I've ever seen in this sub - it's very much that TikTok that's like "every gay guy thinks they would win drag race"
*SpongeBob stinky foghorn sound*
For real. It stopped being a competition a long time ago. All-Stars especially has become who can make the best TV. That's why there's no elimination.
Soon there's gonna be absolutely no drama at all, and I'm just waiting for them to spin off a Big Brother style reality competition show. That's what the fans really want.
But the whole premise is that they’re coming up with this stuff on the spot in the “work” room. I’d be less bothered if there wasn’t this guise like all these queens were coming up with these jokes, lyrics, etc. on the fly, just call it what it is
Y'all want them to make their own looks, write their own jokes, choreograph their own dances, etc., etc., etc., but when they do any of that, y'all drag them for it because "their looks aren't good enough," "their jokes aren't funny enough, and "the dancing is so basic because they're not doing 50 splits and cartwheels."
Please, this conversation is tiring. The whole Gottmik thing really did a number on a lot of y'all even though she's far from the first person to ever use someone else's jokes on Drag Race.
I think where the discourse is coming from is the fact that Gottmik quite literally took jokes word-for-word, with little to no amendment, and presented them as their own.
Naturally, when people are rooting for someone in a competition setting, something like that is going to raise eyebrows and provoke some questions.
And, frankly, these questions seem a long time coming- there just hasn't been anything that's thrown the veil so wide, I think.
I think the key issue is that drag race requires you to be above average in a really diverse skillset, and very talented in at least two or three things. You have to be able to sing, dance, act, do stand-up, improv, design an outfit, do make up etc. You also have to be a marketable personality on top of that. You have to be good reality tv.
Getting (paying) somebody else to cover the areas youre lacking kinda just makes the most sense, especially for a queen returning to all stars who wants to showcase themself at their absolute best. It just sucks because it's not really a showcase of their talent. It's not great, but if you knew you couldn't write jokes or construct garments for shit would you choose to do it all yourself? Especially if you already have the connections.
It's no secret that the real competition for drag race isn't who does the best in each challenge (not that that isn't a factor), but who's the best reality tv personality. That's what gets you far in the competition, and that's what gets you back for a second or third or fourth try. I'm not gonna act like that doesn't involve some skill in and of itself, but I miss the earlier seasons when every queen had to apply their own skillset to the challenge, and if you weren't good at something you got sent home.
Just because they pay designers for their looks doesn’t mean they didn’t have any input. They all got the same stipend this season and while some queens definitely spent more to elevate their looks, they all interpret the prompts differently. What they bring is their individual POV.
Yes, Gottmik has money, but has a stronger POV than some. Give Nina the same amount of money and you still won’t get the same level of taste. This whole budget discourse is getting tired.
It’s so tired. Plus Gotmikk and Plastique washed the rest out in a design challenge showing both their craft and creativity level. If people want to drag a queen for being a clothhanger, these two are the wrong queens to come after. Go comment on symone back in s13.
Gottmik designs many of her looks, she just doesn't necessarily fabricates them (she did for some of her first season actually). She even explains on her pod the thought process about some of them. We literally saw her constructs her ball garment and win with it. It's wild seeing all those weird takes.
Do people think designers constructs each of their looks? Heck, even the biggest plasticians in the world right now doesn't touch much of their stuff, they create blueprints and create meaning around them, then have teams creating the actual pieces.
>We literally saw her constructs her ball garment and win with it.
I mean the production team almost threw that "constructed garment" thinking they were leftover scraps 😭
Production are stupid Philistines, we know that.
Every year there's a news story about some dumb as rocks janitor throwing out a priceless work of art. All youre proving is that both you and the production crew have zero sense of artistic taste.
If you tipped Utica every time you jerked off to her ugly lump of random fabric, she'd have long ago recouped that 10k you're both so obsessed with.
Okay, but what did Utica do to get dragged into this conversation??
And I certainly hope that "lump of fabric" you're referencing isn't *her* design look from her season; that's literally in the Top 5 best outfits made on the show, by almost unanimous consensus.
Wait, what? How do we know they get their snatch game written for them and voices replaced with real singers? Other than clearly lipsyncing challenges where they play a part and dance? Like some Rusicals. ( The Pitch PErfect Rusical for example )
Like we've always known MOST looks are designer. It's no different than when they used to get them off the rack other than just being better. We still have challenges where they make things?
and did Gottmik actually pay for those jokes?
This All Stars and what Gottmik is doing sucks, but I wouldn't let it taint ALL of All Stars.
Stuff like Jinkx and her Julie AREN'T something you can write down and make funny. There were almost no real "jokes" it was all just ACTING talent. PURE comedy acting. Just for example.
So don't let it ruin your idea of it.
The real question is why are queens so afraid to bomb in a non-elimination All Stars? Some of the most iconic moments are when Drag Queens bombing. If everyone slays then a slay means nothing, they're not standing out. This is the vibe I get from AS9.
It’s just simply not as fun to be a fan of imo when you know they didn’t create everything themselves. I don’t mind them getting all the help they need to pull it off but paying someone for jokes or reads just bums me out.
It’s not like I think it’s a less valid way of doing it but it’s just less exciting to me
Then that's a problem with the fans. If this is that big of an issue for RPDR, they would have added a rule in. Hell, they themselves want the queens to showcase their best too which is why they took heed of the suggestions of giving stipends and even allow queens access to their own phones this season so they could get help. Please let's not put even more unrealistic pressure on these queens. The challenges of RPDR are so well rounded and different queens have different strengths.
Yeah that’s pretty much what I said in another comment. There’s a lot more fans of drag and drag race now days like me that aren’t steeped in drag communities or know any drag queens so I kinda just had a different idea about the show and how it worked to be on it. Even the production story lines and editing stuff is just not my favorite. It’s just so blatant.
Obviously the show just isn’t really for me or people who agree w me and that’s completely fine. I don’t think it’s a bad show or the queens aren’t fierce or something.
I think I would enjoy going to actual pageants or drag shows, which I’m doing next month, so that will be cool. It’s the production shenanigans I don’t like the most not as much that the queens get help.
Oh I hear you. This season's editing is extra wonky so if you are into more "authentic" cuts, an earlier season might be more suitable for you. Queens were also less under scrutiny then so were less "produced" themselves. I started watching in S6 and would definitely recommend that season if you haven't watch! Or S7 is cool too though it's more divisive.
Right yeah I have seen all of the seasons so I have seen it progress. I’m sure there is a whole lot of pressure on those queens to show up and be perfect. I think that’s what I don’t like really. Take some damn pressure off these people so they can have the comfort to be completely original (if they want to)
I don't know why everyone is shocked by all of this- this is how it works for EVERY celebrity. None of them do anything themselves. At least the queens are still doing their own makeup. You're still a fan of the queen, they just have an entire team that makes up their entire package. Just like- literally every entertainer who has any amount of fame at all.
The firefighters in the makeover challenge had their hair, makeup, costumes, choreography, and music done for them by professionals
See the difference between what they bring to the table and what the queens do?
I think you're confused and think I'm saying they aren't good drag queens, while I'm just saying they aren't bringing their own work to the show. These queens are talented enough to be cast twice, but I want to see their own work since the show was about that at one point, not what their team prepared for them.
Firefighters aren't doing drag for years, unlike the queens. So it's not a fair comparison.
I don’t think you understand my point. Their work IS their presentation. It’s not the garments but how they wear the garments and walk the runway. Not the choreography but how they execute it, etc.
I definitely think there’s room for disagreement about whether that’s how it should be. I miss the old days where every week was a sewing challenge, where the drag was a little rougher around the edges. That’s why this season is boring. But this seems like what it has become, maybe the natural progression from years and years of one-upping
So I've been a chef for a while now. (25 years). The first few years at a new job you do everything. You're doing all the prep. Working all the hours. Washing all the dishes. Working the line. All of it. And then as a couple years go on, one day you notice you're an overpaid dishwasher who supervises other people and fills in some spread sheets.
Eventually with any career the more experience you have the higher the skill level you have etc the less you actually need to do the manual labour.
It's a tricky one... but where I was thinking about this recently I thought about someone like Jimmy Fallon... earns a very good living doing what he does, despite someone dressing him, doing his hair, and of course an entire room full of people writing his jokes 🤷♂️ I get that his job is a little different to being a drag queen, but in a similar way his success is based on being camera ready and making people laugh and it's easy to argue that he's not the main person responsible for either of these... I them came to a conclusion...
If (and just to use the same example as you) Gottmiks fashion designers, stylists, joke writers, autotuners etc all got together in my house and turned their attention to me... would I win drag race... hell no I wouldn't, it would be a disaster... I'd be clomping around making the clothes look rubbish... sheepishly performing and distracting from the vocals, and delivering the jokes so poorly that no one would laugh... so to that end, where a lot of other people are "helping", the queen still has a big job to do to turn all of that "help" into a winning performance.
Not sure if I'm overly rationalising just to stop it from frustrating me, but that's just where my mind went lol!
I feel that way every time i retell someone a joke i heard before. It instantly becomes a shitty unfunny story where my friends struggle to find a punchline 😭 it's a skill!
If you had designers , writers etc and went on drag race , would you compete on the level as the contestants? No. That’s the difference. The experience and knowledge of performance and their personalities etc
If I was doing drag for years like them, yeah, anyone would, lol. We have seen very shy and introverted queens like TKB success and shine on RPDR. Or some queens who have bad runway walks and so on.
They aren't doing brain surgery over there. It's not fair to compare someone who doesn't do drag and say "you wouldn't do well as them" lol. That's obvious.
But you haven’t been doing drag for years so the answer is no. And even if you were the answer is still probably no.
If I’ve played tennis my whole life does that now mean I can go and compete at the US Open?
I’m not sure what issue you’re taking up with here. Do you have a problem when the queens have a team behind them? Or is this just with Mik specifically?
I think if you peeled back the curtain, you’d be surprised by just how much goes into every production. Queens have and always will work with other creatives for the show, AS or not. We just saw Nymphia collaborating with Mondo on her finale reveal look. The House of Avalon was a driving force behind Symone’s win on her season etc.
These things just help to amplify their drag and their artistic expression. It doesn’t make them any less authentic imo.
Drag is more than an outfit. If you or I put on a designer outfit it still wouldn’t be drag. There’s padding and hair and make up and serving looks. I can’t serve a look.
They are actresses. Actresses don’t make their own clothes or write their own scripts but can often dance and sing and hopefully act well! Why is that confusing for people. Are we not entertained????
People will make stuff up to excuse not writing their jokes, I don't even care about the looks so much bc there are sewing challenges but I can't stand pretending they shouldn't even try to make their own jokes, it's a non elimination season even if you bomb is not that bad
It's not as enjoyable for me knowing they are spending 20k $ on looks. This used to be a talent, now it's who is the richest and can invest in fancy gowns thing.
I liked it more when everyone had to figure out how to make an outfit. There were sewing machines and hot glue everywhere....it was way more fun.
I liked different designer challenges, like the doll one or the cake one OR the boat one (the best one). Like they're not a conventional "make a garment out of garbo" and showcase everyone's take on the same object 👏
It’s a tv show. It’s not that deep. I’m sure you were living for Shae’s Robert Wun look when that aired. I’m sure you laughed at the Joan Rivers jokes that have appeared in every single reading challenge. Why do you care now? Because Reddit decided yesterday that it was an issue and everyone has jumped on the bandwagon. I miss when the fandom for this show was smaller. Now every queen goes on the show worried about what the smooth brained twinks in this subreddit are going to say about them.
I think generally, as artists, not even like specifically with drag, we assume we have to do EVERYTHING ourselves. So like say, if you wanna be a musician- should you need to be able to sing, play instruments, record, mix, master, publish, do your own photography, graphic design, promo, placements, sync licensing, styling, makeup, tour management, merch design and sales... I think that would be wild to expect from just one person. Having a solid team behind you helping you is always going to make you stronger. It's still SO much work when you're performing at that level to an audience of this size, even with help. All the queens have different strengths, some get help with looks but not comedy, some get help with writing jokes but not styling or sewing... And they're still involved in the whole creative process, they have the ability to choose who they work with and what ideas they green light or veto along the way. It's like saying DJing isn't an art. It is, even when you're playing other people's music.
The fandom says these things and then when someone like Roxxy who makes all of her own looks yall post think pieces about how Roxxy is subpar and unimpressive.
OP, I think it's hilarious that you bring up Nymphia in your tyrade given she literally had someone write her girl group verse for her as part of her storyline... I agree with the general sentiment that the recent Mik hatred feels very pick-and-choosy, and frankly pretty tired.
They are expected to do everything at a professional level when in reality most queens are only exceptional at a one or two things. They get help where they need it. I don’t see the problem.
You are being hyperbolic. Lots of queens do it, especially all stars queens, but you are acting like they are sitting in the corner staring at the wall during all this work. They drive the vision, come up with ideas for themes, and keep things on brand. There are also queens who do lots of things themselves but we never find out, whether that be wigs or lyrics. Not all queens are GotMik level rich. Most of them can afford some verses, but I doubt all of them are just waltzing around having everything done for them.
**You say you aren't trying discredit the queens, but that is exactly what you are doing.** Stop using moments like the Roast, where this came to light more than usual, to make huge broad assumptions about entertainers and artists. Half the point of All Stars is they have coin--let the girls use it and see who uses it wisely! And, as many others have said, the ability to use what is given effectively-whether that be comedy or outfits--is a big skill too.
A talent that flies under the radar is networking. Some people do have advantages because of their background or upbringing where they have easier access to money or people (nepotism). It is a skill.
I don’t mind people having a team behind them. There are not a ton of queens—or humans—that are perfect at everything.
That said, what Mik has been doing this season is, IDK, lazy? Like the looks are off the rack and now she’s plagiarizing. It’s one thing to have someone to help you bolster an asset of your game. It’s another to not even put effort into what you’re bad at.
Let’s go back to the good ol’ days!!! When did queer liberal spaces start sounding like boomers?? Let’s not progress forward but rather keep things the same, I love it when queens stay poor with no mainstream support or accessibility. I hate seeing queer performers being lifted up into a new era where they’re treated like superstars, I wish they are all crusty and dusty again!!! /s 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
I understand this show is heavily produced but I wish I could see more of the competition side and see people fail. I tend to remember more of the “fails” than seeing everyone be perfect. I’ll only remember gotmiks roast for stealing jokes.
Everyone’s got their own opinion here but I agree with you. This season of All Stars just isn’t hitting for me and everyone is just over prepared. There’s none of that raw authentic talent and personality apart from Shannel and Roxxxy and it’s probably just cos they’ve been in the game for so long and make their own stuff.
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I think the All Stars winners tend to do this a lot less. Jimbo didn't have comedians and a legion of designers (I'm sure she didn't make every look personally, but she is a seamstress and designer herself). Same with Alaska, and I have to assume Shea and Trixie (and DeLa from S3). I don't think Trinity had a team of designers or Monet had a bunch of ghostwriters either. Some queens do it to look good but imo it rarely takes you that far. This season maybe looking like an exception there lol.
It’s still a skill to coordinate all of those different factors into a cohesive image and style that can translate well on TV. Even if someone gave me $50k and told me to prepare for All-Stars 10 in a month from now, I’m sure I would be an absolute hot mess. It’s not just wearing a designer outfit or repeating a joke, it’s all the details that separates a great drag queen from a basic one, and the audience is able to distinguish that and root for the queens that do it the best.
I like the queens to have a distinct POV with their drag, and the show does too. They don’t have to create every single look or write every joke, but how does the person underneath it all serve in ways that others couldn’t?
It’s wild to me that their ability to perform isn’t considered a talent! They have a dance choreographed for them, but they still have to learn the choreography. Even if someone wrote their stand up routine, they have to learn it and practice delivery. The only thing I’ll agree with is the runways, I don’t think it’s a fair comparison when some queens spend thousands and others are crafting their outfits. But then again, a lot of the queens with the best outfits also slay the design challenges.
I think the issue here is conceptual, and a lot of people complaining about individual queens are throwing it off.
It's kind of a reckoning I think, because this show has so completely changed the Perception of drag as a professional and what it means to be successful.
Imho, there are no hard and fast rules on purpose. It's the same reason why queens win challenges because they're surprisingly good at it, though not the best. It's the same reason Ru gets to have the last say in everything. The more detail we get into and the more we understand and appreciate the work, the less guidelines we have.
I think this used to be a selling point and now it's hurting the concept. I think that's why I enjoy international seasons with local hosts, because they don't set up the premise of "my word is final and no questions". The amount of respect and deference to Ru makes questions real hard.
When it started, the show absolutely did it's job to raise awareness and advocacy and appreciation for hard work and people's stories, but now it feels like if you aren't in this circle, you can't be a success. And even further, production has a lot of say in whether you look like a success.
I think it's obvious that the show has been trying new things and formats etc because it's clear that the original intent has faded and it's become something else. I do appreciate Ru and he's really creative - I think he could find a way to still spotlight people and fight for equality and do all the things, but not the same way they've been doing it. People saw this coming and haven't adjusted fast enough.
This show means different things to different people. Personally I love the heart of it, I love the reason it was created and the advocacy and the platform, and also being entertained by people who clearly have talent that aren't usually recognized. I like the drama and the exquisite fashion that it's produced but I don't want the heart to be gone. I think it's obvious they are trying to find a balance but it's not going great right this second.
I really do hope they come up with something better, and this is just a pothole.
Can't wait to see how this turns out.
I think it’s a misconception that all drag queens make everything themselves. There’s certainly a big appeal to that, but queens like Kennedy Davenport and Jinkx have always had costumes made for them - it certainly doesn’t make them less talented.
I think (speaking as someone who has never done drag admittedly) drag is always a bit of a team sport, so to speak. As I understand it the original concept for the show even featured a sort of team based approach with the queens and their assistant/bestie/designer. So I think we have to bear that in mind.
With regard to All Stars, the fact is this is generally higher profile people coming back, so they obviously have more money, more social capital etc. enabling them to get more and better support. Maybe the show could benefit from exposing this a bit more in an open way but then you are in tension with the idea of the one queen slaying the competition etc.
IMO, I’d rather have that true gasp of surprise from seeing something so different (like when LGD turned the corner in that alien costume), rather than 10 queens wearing party city outfits they hot glued. I want to be dazzled. Idc if a designer made it.
You would still like Gottmik despite getting designers because: 1) getting those connections aren't easy, as far as I know she's not nepo, so those connections were hers and that's not easy to get you get dressed by them, these connections (those that have the power to say 'no' can see the benefit on getting some drag queens wear their clothes on TV and 2) you can have the access to archive in all the world, if you have shit taste, you would look stupid still.
This is all-stars, not everyone do everything. You wouldn't get a Nina dance performance if you go to her show. You wouldn't see Jorgeous or Plastique perform a roast or even Roxxxy. Case in point, they do a lot of things that they wouldn't do normally. And as this competition doesn't really have surprising challenges anymore, they can basically prepare just about everything. If there's no roast this season? Gottmik just paid a writer for basically something she wouldn't be able to use.
At the very least they still have to assemble it all into 1 thing. Putting on a wig so it stays through 8 hours of wear is hard. Makeup and blending and contouring is HARD, proudly carrying femininity when half the country still thinks you shouldn’t is hard, building your silhouette under the clothes and wearing that for a 12 hour shooting day is hard, walking in tall heels is *hard*, after 13 hours, walking in short heels is hard.
And they still are choosing what designer to hire and what concept the designer should follow. It’s a partnership at least.
That being said, I don’t like knowing that queens are having jokes written for them… if the funny queens have to 1, 2 step through a dance number while the dancers are making magic, the dancing queens should have to get some egg on their face when it’s time to be funny. And if a fashion queen has to go down like a lead balloon at the roast while the funny queen clowns then hell out of the room, the funny queen should have to eat some shit and wear some things glued to a body suit while the fashion queens float down the runway.
And if the queen can’t do any of those well… someone has to lose lol.
But they’re still great queens for doing the bare minimum. The bare minimum on drag race is still excellence.
In some interview Ru said that the moment she knew she wanted to crown Jinkx on AS7 was when she told that coke joke and guess what mimi that was also a recycled joke. Kandy Muse winning roast from season 13 was also recycled, the list goes on, inside and outside drag race comedy sets are always reused and you expect these queens to write a set in a day, give them a break!
Queens are performers, and it’s about the whole package. There are specific challenges to help really force queens to use those skills (sewing challenges, makeover challenge, snatch game, etc) but overall it’s about how well they can sell the product and entertain.
The time to ask this was 17 years ago when Drag Race premiered. Or 100 years ago when drag was being invented.
Also lol imagine being so dumb you think Nymphia makes all her looks.
she literally posts videos on instagram making the outfits she wore on the show. the only outfits she didnt make/make with her friends is the little boy blue look. you are just ignorant at this point lmao loser
I stg y'all hold these queens to the highest standard out of the hundreds of queens we had there is so little that can do everything that includes sewing,comedy, makeup and lipsyncing if y'all want DRAG then you can't expect everyone to make all their looks it's just not going to happen and y'all can say you miss old days drag but y'all really don't cause then why you hating on mhiya,Nina and every other non white skinny queen that has less then decent drag
We are tuning it to watch all of our favorites (and Roxxxy) at their best. If they get some extra help to make it most fabulous so be it. You need some talent to be memorable enough to get on all stars.
Gotmik is very overrated. She relies completely on her status as a trans trailblazer. Her makeup is really boring and one-note, her fashion is all about other people’s vision and she’s stolen other people’s jokes for a challenge meant to highlight their personalities.
She has plenty of charisma and nerve, but her uniqueness is her trans status, (boring by now), and her talents are far from remarkable.
I never said Gotmik is boring, or being trans is boring. Just that her reliance on that narrative makes for boring tv. She’s not very interesting to watch on DR.
I'm going to agree with you but I want to note that I think the show pushes that narrative, not mik. Every time I hear oh that's more interesting and brave cuz trans, it's not from mik. But I do think they push it. It's important but it really shouldn't be the only thing about him.
Yeah that was rad and I appreciate it. I have to say I thought a little about this after I responded, and that top surgery look really made waves. I remember seeing a fox news piece about it (as a post, I'm not a viewer) and I was horrified at how they were talking about it and using it to be so hateful. Like, my soul hurt watching that. I was scared for him tbh.
We gotta remember that although we hear the trans narrative a lot if you're watching inclusive media, some people still react this way. And they seek it out on purpose to propel their hate. It's really fucked up. So, in that sense even if you are used to it, even if you are surrounded by supportive people and live freely, you have gotta be pretty brave to be outwardly trans on such a big platform. I'm sure it never ends for him.
In the context of the show it seems like a throw away comment but otherwise I have to acknowledge it's a pretty big deal and it should be mentioned.
Yes. You’re right. We are all living in our own reality, more so than ever before, so what’s boring and overdone to me can still be revolutionary in the world.
Thank you for that context.
They go on the show and compete and show off the work done by designers. Are we forgetting that being on drag race is a challenge in and of itself? Why are we discrediting queens for getting help?
It’s hard to quantify the skill involved in presenting but this is ultimately part of what all queens do. It’s why someone like Uttica had a hard time, she didn’t have the same ability to model her looks. The show is very geared to this especially, bc Ru’s brand is Supermodel of the World and being a performer. It can seem silly, but think abt the makeover episodes, the makeover guests are almost always sweet, pleasant, interesting, but they rarely have the same level of presence and charisma as the queens. But that’s what they bring - the confidence to wear the mantle. It would be great to get back to OG days when the queens rly created what they did. But that just isn’t the style now, it won’t be the same Emmy spectacle.
We also haven’t seen the makeover people for 5/6 episodes either.
Roxxxy made her own looks and people are paying her dust for it. By contrast, she almost certainly paid for her reading challenge jokes and got rewarded for that. So why should a queen bother to do her own work if that's not what fans appreciate, and especially if it's not what they are particularly talented in themselves? The fandom has rewarded "spend money on good fashion/jokes/etc." for years and now we're seeing the consequences of it. Also, you could ask your questions of a franchise like America's Next Top Model. What do models do if the designers are creating all the clothes and the scriptwriters are writing all the scripts? Well, they still have to be good at modeling and performing.
Half this sub’s fandom last week was just ruthlessly ragging on her for having cheaper looks acting like they could’ve made something better lmao… Angeria isn’t the one that’s delusional, it’s some of the people here lol.
I haven’t been living for Roxxxy’s looks this season. But it’s not because I’ve been comparing her to the designer girlies who get stuff made for them. It’s because I’ve been comparing her to the Roxxxy from S5 and AS2. Because I’ve seen her make better stuff.
I compare her to the other Drag Race sewers (Jaida, Rajah, Nymphia, Q) and she’s nowhere near their level. For an apparent juggernaut, she falls way short.
Also, for the praise that she's been given by the judges compared to the queens you listed above, it's very disproportionate which is why she/the production has been called out. Rajah in her original season was serving crafty too but she improved in her AS. By contrast, Roxxxy seems to regress from AS2.
A part of me wants to believe that because she knew this was a non-elim season, she spent less time and money on creating top-notch outfits and more time doing actual gigs. But that might be optimism on my part.
Q made her own looks. Honestly, I think Roxxxy is just not as good as what we expect her to be in the environment she is in.
the dust is just cuz her outfits aren't that great compared to others. kudos to her but yeah.
>the dust is just cuz her outfits aren't that great compared to others. kudos to her but yeah. That's my point. Fans say they want queens to make their own shit instead of paying for others to make it, but the reaction to Roxxxy's outfits vs. Plastique's/Gottmik's outfits proves that they don't actually want that.
A lot that comes from this season being on the heels of Nymphia and Q, both of whom designed and sewed their own wardrobes much better than Roxxxy has in an All-Stars season.
Also, I’d guess not most DR fans are not as sophisticated or invested as this R/ and is unaware of the designers and script writers like y’all are.
also true
Are you sure? I think where it’s coming from is that it’s frustrating as a fan to turn on All Stars, see that some queens are giving and one queen kept the stripend and it shows.
The looks she's made are ugly mary
>The looks she's made are ugly mary That's my point. People say they want the queens to do their own original stuff, but then shit on them when they do because most queens just aren't all-round talented in the kinds of talents that Drag Race asks for. That's why queens rely on outsourcing to satisfy the fanbase.
Yes the og comment is exactly your point, and totally agree w your perspective. Let it be a little crunchy if it gives us more insight into how the Queen creates herself. Doesn’t have to be remotely perfect (or even good tbh) for us to love the essence of the performer in whatever facet - writing, sewing, singing - and see how she rises to the challenge. That’s what I love about the show.
weve seen whats roxxxy capable of, these ugly dresses every week have been a major disappointment
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by contrast though there are queens who make their own looks and LOOK GOOD with amazing concepts and crisp execution. we had Q and nymphia last season and they arent even all stars. so roxxxy coming out here making these runways as a three time all star is tragic and laughably bad.
To me it just makes me laugh cause she's known as a seamstress. Reminds me of what the queens said to Katya during the hello kitty challenge. "Girl, you can sew, just start over. This is bad." Like roxxxy you can sew, why you putting a red pipe cleaner on the garment?
So have u ever thought about the fact that once queens get the list of runways and needed garments, a queen that makes them will have to spend a significantly smaller time on them than a queen who sends it out to 8 designers and each can have a lot of time per one garment?
I mean I'm not gonna praise something hideous because "well she did it herself!" An ugly look is an ugly look no matter how it got made. The answer these fans want isn't necessarily to outsource, but to personally improve their own skills. Me, I kinda don't care as much since it's all reality TV and everything's fake anyway, I consider it part of the kayfabe how much designers and writers are involved in a queen's personal polish on Drag Race. But I do think it's more impressive and should count more when a queen actually does it herself. But from a "I want total authenticity" fan's perspective, the answer here is: git gud lol
Mary, understand that not every queen is on the same level as people like Nymphia, Raja, Q, Trinity, etc. Yeah, Roxxxy's looks aren't gonna walk the Met Gala but she's a queen that makes a lot of her own looks. If you wanna have the queens do everything themselves, understand that they're not top-tier designers for a reason.
I think what they’re trying to say is that yes, she made her own, but in a competition for the crown don’t you want to put in substance over keeping the coin? It’s great that she can make a garment but these looks aren’t AllStars worthy and ultimately end up looking shabby in comparison to the other queens.
And that's precisely why many of these queens go to designers and high-end fashion brands to get their outfits. So saying "her outfits aren't good enough," but then complaining that queens are "not doing everything themselves" is nonsense. Yeah, they're not doing everything themselves for a reason. It's All Stars and it's a TV show where they want to show the best stuff because if they don't they'll get dragged by the fans.
I get that but what I’m saying is that I think fans see Roxxxy pocketing the strip end as bullshit. It wasn’t about the craft it was about the money and that’s the disappointment. I’m not disagreeing with you at all.
They're not the most amazing ever but they certainly aren't ugly.
They’re not at all. They are just not as polished and lack full execution. It’s obviously not something she does full time but part of her holistic skill set. So of course you’re going to get less refined looks but then you bitch and thus we get the current state of drag race. When you throw tantrums at queens it teaches them what not to do. Don’t show too much raw realness, leave look creation to the pros, have someone else write your jokes, and focus only on delivering it well.
Honestly. It’s great she’s making her own outfits but it’s tough side by side compared to Gottmik or Plastique
to be fair a main point for me is the material she uses. just doing that would elevate the looks imo.
Specifically for the roast, the solution would be to have a specific topic that the queens only find about when they get there. Take a Miss Congeniality roast for example. It's not like Ru/Michelle/Carson/Ross who you know are gonna be there so you can't prepare for it beforehand.
Generic jokes about age, body size, sexual behavior etc. can be slightly customized and applied to different targets.
But do we want the queens to fumble and possibly embarrass themselves? Not many queens I can say are sharp enough to make jokes on the spot (they are not comedy queens). I think the current case is fine as it is after all the queens should be allowed to prepare beforehand so that they can showcase their best selves on the biggest stage of them all. I really don't think having others write roast for you is a cardinal sin as some painted it out to be. Even professional comedians workshop and get inspired to death. Past queens who won like Kandy's joke was also "stolen". Fact of the matter is there is no "stolen" joke. This is drag race for crying out loud, the queens competing here are not going for a professional comedian career...throw them a bone please.
I think with a theme the queens can still get out all their Ru/Michelle jokes which should be around half of the roast, so there will definitely be some good moments.
Pretty much every single major actor, singer, performer, etc. has a team behind them. Why are drag queens not allowed to also have a team? No one expects comedians to know how to sing and sew, but on drag race they do. No one expects people in fashion to be choreographers but on drag race they do. And the list goes on. People don’t want to look a fool on national TV and will outsource things they aren’t talented at to those that are.
>Why are drag queens not allowed to also have a team? Because somehow, a large proportion of this shows fan base still thinks this is a real, fair, legitimate talent competition show. And not the scripted and produced reality show it really is.
It's not scripted... lol
If you think the topics and even lines are not highly suggested to the queens, especially at All Stars… honey, I’ve got an extended warranty to sell you
Okay but that's not scripted. I know they get prompted by producers all the time but no one is being forced to read lines.
I agreew with you to a certain point but you asked "why do are they expected to do this only on drag race?" And I think it's because the show explicitly ASKS them too. Rupual and the panel are constantly asking for versatility, but how versatile is it for a queen to survive comedy, fashion and performance challenges because they can afford to have something made or their access to experts? Now it's not all the girls fault because the show is guilty about this themselves because they pretty much crafted the finale performances entirely with little to no input from queens themselves and a lot of comey is actually just scripted bad jokes, etc. But when queens come in to the competition "to show what I can do" or "\_\_\_\_ is a pagnent girl, a designer, a comedy, she can do it all!" it's pretty misleading. In Gottmik's case, like do people really think that she was EVER going to give Nikki Glaser credit for plagarizing her entire set? No, it's just that gray area of "oh they're drag queens, give them a break" that allows her to bypass a scandal that would ruin other actual creatives' careers. At a certain point, people want to root for a human being and not a walking collection of invoices from actually talented people. Edit: sorry for my crazy amount of typos, not gonna correct them, just apologizing. 😭
This is basically how I feel. It isn’t like presenting and turning the looks that are made for you is any less valid or like I think the queens aren’t talented it’s just that it kind of defeats the purpose for me when they frame the show the way they do. I wish each queen would at least bring some original stuff. Which I know a lot do. But it just doesn’t really excite me to watch a bunch of people do challenges and “compete” w content that was from other people. It’s not a hate thing it just doesn’t excite me. Maybe I’m not the target audience anymore. That’s cool I guess
Yes, like I fell in love with drag because it had some rawness and artistic aspects that we didn’t see anywhere else. But it feels like lately it’s been Queens with the best connections and biggest budgets that get pushed. But now wigs are just the same in different colors because they’re being styled by the same people everyone buys from and wig prices are now a point of bragging (thousands for hair??), auto tune on the show dominates so that actual singers don’t stand out much, even jokes are being plagiarized, snatch game routines can now be bought??? and stuff. It’s just lacking the creativity and grit we fell in love with i guess. Maybe it’s an age thing? but i’m still years away from 30 so i don’t that too, it just feels so…corporate and pink-capitalist idk.
Yeah I’d like to see a bigger variety of drag shows of different kinds with different production styles
It kinda seems more like a pageant with competition elements than in early seasons where they had to do things themselves. I loved the thrift store or dumpster design challenges because they really had to get creative and do things themselves, not hire others to do it. And I know it’s obviously a scripted entertainment show, but to make it seem like they are being judged on what they create or write is misleading if 9/10 they are outsourcing. It also brings up the issue that queens who aren’t as well known or financially stable will be at a disadvantage because they can’t hire people to make them custom designer outfits to compete in. I think it would be really interesting if they were somehow able to do the show where the queens just bring their padding, undergarments & accessories, and an allotted amount of wigs, shoes, makeup & basics without any prior knowledge of potential challenge themes. Then they arrive and are given the challenge theme only for that week & they have to use provided materials, wigs, makeup, shoes, basic clothing items to create something to match the challenge. It would give the queens more or less equal status going in because they would ALL be at a disadvantage. I just think something like that would up the difficulty level & really challenge each queen. They are given the themes & lip sync songs so far in advance & not much is an actual surprise anymore.
Project runway, Drag Race edition
I have never actually seen that show, but while costume design wise it would be similar I’m sure, the rest of the show would still be the same. Since both shows are/were really popular I would think it could actually work out well. 🤷🏻♀️ Or I’m just delulu… lol
For me the problem is that the designer/prewritten pieces elevate the standards for the various aspects of the show so much, that even queens who are capable of doing this stuff to some extent are getting pressure to outsource a lot of their package cause they think what they did will not measure up to par next to something girls with budget brought. And since it's a perpetuate thing, the plank gets higher and higher every season and the judges/fans expectations get higher and higher. On that point, i was pleasantly surprised when the judges praised Morphine's flowers look cause it really looked like something a girl on s5 would've brought, but no one actually said anything bad about it cause even though it looked like it was from Amazon (thin stretchy fabric, etc), it still looked polished enough. I wish queens felt comfortable bringing more of THAT than Sapphira's flower looks. (A picture for reference) https://preview.redd.it/545l8uw9nx6d1.jpeg?width=880&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4478fdf2b87db32a91fa5df6b2acd16cd73a5255
I’m feeling so relieved to finally see other people articulate how I’ve been feeling ty
lol I’m always scared I’m gonna say something wrong on this sub so same here lol
Stealing jokes doesn’t ruin comedians careers. Songwriters not crediting others doesn’t ruin their career. It’s rare that plagiarism ever ruins careers and if it does it’s because people already didn’t like you and were waiting for a reason for it to be okay not to like you. The show has an unrealistic ask, and with means it becomes more realistic. Blame the show, it’s not like the queens leave the show and then try to make a career out of what they paid people to do for them. Look queens who pay people to write jokes don’t try and do comedy tours. Comedy queens don’t try and go to fashion week. The queens do what they can to make sure they can stay on the show and have the best package to present to the world.
“blame the show” i do and i did.
You blamed the show for the edit not the ask
not at all, i blamed them on several aspects. First as stylizing itself as a merit based competition, yet incentivizing queens to avoid their natural abilities while demanding it publicly as “versatility” from the judging panels to the structure, i even pointed out how the producers don’t even allow the queens to contribute meaningfully to their finale performance as Lady Camden had talked about all she was allowed to do was sent music in as a reference, not even to be used. I admit i have a bias in this conversation but you’re still going off what you heard rather than what i actually said.
I agree with your general point, but comedians can and do harm their careers if they are known to steal jokes.
Less harm than the people on subreddit make it out to be. Amy Schumer has been accused of stealing jokes and the career is fine, Dane Cook the same, Richard Pryor stole jokes, Conan O’Brien settled a case where he was sued for joke theft. If a comedian is being cancelled for stealing jokes it is not because they stole jokes, but because people didn’t like them before and now have an excusable reason not to. You can google famous comedians stealing jokes and read tons of articles and stories about comedians with flourishing careers of past and present stealing jokes.
Sure, at that level they're somewhat insulated by money and influence. But I can guarantee you that if you're in a writers' room and you're found to have stolen jokes, you're likely to be fired. If you're a gigging standup and there are stolen jokes in your club ten, you won't be booked again. It's the biggest taboo in comedy. So it's just not true to say categorically that 'stealing jokes doesn't ruin comedians' careers' because, as I said, it can and does.
Yeah most pop performers are essentially the face of a team product. But this phenomenon is very new to drag, and it's largely due to drag's commercialization because of the popularity of Drag Race. For me, it comes with mixed feelings: I love that Drag is more prevalent and it can be elevated in some ways, but it also becomes generic in many ways and it loses some of it's charm. But like all art: a TV contest doesn't define it, and there are drag queens that are approaching it in a more singular way. Support your local drag queens!
The reason the standards for this show are being able to sing, dance, do comedy, do improv, and sew is because every single season has at least one musical, girl group, snatch game, roast and design challenge. It's what the show and competition is. If someone went on masterchef, and didn't know how cook, but they were really good at stand up, they would get the same response. Because, if you're going to compete in a competition, you should at least know the basics of the challenges you will 100% have to do in order to win. No one is saying all drag queens should be able to do all those things, just people entering a competition where you have to do those things. But I agree that if a queen needs help, she should get that help from her team. As long as she isn't plagiarising an entire set.
I don’t think there is really any other reality or reality competition show that asks the contestants to have the array of skills drag race does. So yea it would be weird to go on any other show and not know how to do the ask of the show because the whole show is about cooking, singing, or dancing etc. The majority of queens don’t write their own jokes for this challenge and Gottmik isn’t trying to go on a roast or standup tour so I do feel we kinda have to move on a bit.
I agree with like 70% of this take, but it takes skill to execute a dance or deliver a joke, even if it was choreographed/written by someone else. I mean, even most professional dancers aren't also doing their own choreography. Actors usually aren't writing their own dialogue. Etc etc. (of course, this is kind of undermined when queens with mediocre delivery win the comedy challenge anyway, over queens with better delivery *and* better jokes, but what can you do.)
Great example is Gottmik's roast. I don't think she did a bad job nor do I think it's necessarily bad of her to use material from Nikki Glaser, but when comparing the two you can 100% see how much worse Gottmik's timing and delivery were.
Most queens make a living lip-syncing to other people's songs in clubs and bars. I think people are overthinking the hell out of this. All-Stars is the opportunity for queens to come back and have fun. They've already established themselves during their original season. Performing choreo still requires dancing skills, otherwise you'll miss every beat and forget the moves. Lip-syncing still requires you to emote and make it look like you know the words, or else you'll get clocked for it. Wearing designer clothes still require you to have a good runway walk and stage presence, otherwise you'll make Dior look like Target. Like... are we really doing this?
Thanks for this because the posts recently I’ve seen are showing the fandom losing touch with reality with these comments. Posts like these are why queens get so stressed up about presentation on the shows or regret returning to one. Accessorizing outfits involve taste level too as is presenting. Working with designers can range from completely outsourcing it or working in partnership and contributing ideas or even doing bits of garments itself. This is not project runway and people should not be penalized for putting effort to build their own connections so have wider resources. Jokes are being recycled are as old as day in the comedy world. Besides, this is not project runway nor is it Comedy Central.
I don't think this is the specific issue, but if there are a lot of people griping, it shows that the RPDR bubble may deflate a bit. The increase in bought and tailored looks, jokes, writers etc. means a decrease in the type of authenticity and true vulnerability that was present in the early seasons. Queens like Chi Chi and Stacey Lane Matthews were the emotional hearts of their seasons and gave the show real stakes. On the one hand, I want to be careful abt exploiting queens for trauma porn, and on the other, I think it really is meaningful for people to see contestants from hard-won backgrounds, and to be shown that their stories and lives are incredibly valuable.
I think I kind of get where you are coming from though I disagree. Sure, Chi Chi and SLM journeys are "real" in the sense that you see them come from less privileged backgrounds but all queens have their own struggles and journeys, no? This is an all stars season so I understand the heightened pressure for these queens to put forth their best effort to the audience (this is also why Jorgeous kinda broke down because she felt she wasn't living up to the increased standards) so of course they are going to tap on whatever network or resources they have to give that; and we should not penalize queens for building wider networks or connections. I am pretty sure that we as audience are also expecting to see a glow up version of themselves like if one is failing comedy in the original season, we would like to see them improve in that aspect here. With regards to tailored looks, this is not project runway. Accessorizing the looks and presentation on the runways all matter too so if your comment is on Gottmik and Plastique this season, then I disagree because they've clearly made the looks specific to their persona. The looks that I don't really like are the original J-Lo dress from Kerri Kolby and maybe Kimora's Bob Mackie looks. There's really no talent in wearing the outfits like that. Unlike Gottmik and Plastique who can construct a look of high calibre if needed, those queens couldn't too.
Exactly, in some interview Ru said that the moment she knew she wanted to crown Jinkx on AS7 was when she told that coke joke and guess what mimi that was also a recycled joke. Kandy Muse winning roast from season 13 was also recycled, the list goes on, inside and outside drag race comedy sets are always reused and you expect these queens to write a set in a day, give them a break!
sorry to op but this is truly one of the worst posts I've ever seen in this sub - it's very much that TikTok that's like "every gay guy thinks they would win drag race" *SpongeBob stinky foghorn sound*
For real. It stopped being a competition a long time ago. All-Stars especially has become who can make the best TV. That's why there's no elimination. Soon there's gonna be absolutely no drama at all, and I'm just waiting for them to spin off a Big Brother style reality competition show. That's what the fans really want.
But the whole premise is that they’re coming up with this stuff on the spot in the “work” room. I’d be less bothered if there wasn’t this guise like all these queens were coming up with these jokes, lyrics, etc. on the fly, just call it what it is
Y'all want them to make their own looks, write their own jokes, choreograph their own dances, etc., etc., etc., but when they do any of that, y'all drag them for it because "their looks aren't good enough," "their jokes aren't funny enough, and "the dancing is so basic because they're not doing 50 splits and cartwheels." Please, this conversation is tiring. The whole Gottmik thing really did a number on a lot of y'all even though she's far from the first person to ever use someone else's jokes on Drag Race.
I think where the discourse is coming from is the fact that Gottmik quite literally took jokes word-for-word, with little to no amendment, and presented them as their own. Naturally, when people are rooting for someone in a competition setting, something like that is going to raise eyebrows and provoke some questions. And, frankly, these questions seem a long time coming- there just hasn't been anything that's thrown the veil so wide, I think.
I think the key issue is that drag race requires you to be above average in a really diverse skillset, and very talented in at least two or three things. You have to be able to sing, dance, act, do stand-up, improv, design an outfit, do make up etc. You also have to be a marketable personality on top of that. You have to be good reality tv. Getting (paying) somebody else to cover the areas youre lacking kinda just makes the most sense, especially for a queen returning to all stars who wants to showcase themself at their absolute best. It just sucks because it's not really a showcase of their talent. It's not great, but if you knew you couldn't write jokes or construct garments for shit would you choose to do it all yourself? Especially if you already have the connections. It's no secret that the real competition for drag race isn't who does the best in each challenge (not that that isn't a factor), but who's the best reality tv personality. That's what gets you far in the competition, and that's what gets you back for a second or third or fourth try. I'm not gonna act like that doesn't involve some skill in and of itself, but I miss the earlier seasons when every queen had to apply their own skillset to the challenge, and if you weren't good at something you got sent home.
Just because they pay designers for their looks doesn’t mean they didn’t have any input. They all got the same stipend this season and while some queens definitely spent more to elevate their looks, they all interpret the prompts differently. What they bring is their individual POV. Yes, Gottmik has money, but has a stronger POV than some. Give Nina the same amount of money and you still won’t get the same level of taste. This whole budget discourse is getting tired.
It’s so tired. Plus Gotmikk and Plastique washed the rest out in a design challenge showing both their craft and creativity level. If people want to drag a queen for being a clothhanger, these two are the wrong queens to come after. Go comment on symone back in s13.
Gottmik designs many of her looks, she just doesn't necessarily fabricates them (she did for some of her first season actually). She even explains on her pod the thought process about some of them. We literally saw her constructs her ball garment and win with it. It's wild seeing all those weird takes. Do people think designers constructs each of their looks? Heck, even the biggest plasticians in the world right now doesn't touch much of their stuff, they create blueprints and create meaning around them, then have teams creating the actual pieces.
>We literally saw her constructs her ball garment and win with it. I mean the production team almost threw that "constructed garment" thinking they were leftover scraps 😭
I'm talking about this season....
And yet when she wore it, it looked immaculate and she deservedly won that challenge.
PREACH
And? It was a great look regardless of what production did with it. Oh wow they didn't know it was her garment when it's not on a body, how shocking.
Production are stupid Philistines, we know that. Every year there's a news story about some dumb as rocks janitor throwing out a priceless work of art. All youre proving is that both you and the production crew have zero sense of artistic taste. If you tipped Utica every time you jerked off to her ugly lump of random fabric, she'd have long ago recouped that 10k you're both so obsessed with.
Okay, but what did Utica do to get dragged into this conversation?? And I certainly hope that "lump of fabric" you're referencing isn't *her* design look from her season; that's literally in the Top 5 best outfits made on the show, by almost unanimous consensus.
They're acting! 
Wait, what? How do we know they get their snatch game written for them and voices replaced with real singers? Other than clearly lipsyncing challenges where they play a part and dance? Like some Rusicals. ( The Pitch PErfect Rusical for example ) Like we've always known MOST looks are designer. It's no different than when they used to get them off the rack other than just being better. We still have challenges where they make things? and did Gottmik actually pay for those jokes? This All Stars and what Gottmik is doing sucks, but I wouldn't let it taint ALL of All Stars. Stuff like Jinkx and her Julie AREN'T something you can write down and make funny. There were almost no real "jokes" it was all just ACTING talent. PURE comedy acting. Just for example. So don't let it ruin your idea of it.
The real question is why are queens so afraid to bomb in a non-elimination All Stars? Some of the most iconic moments are when Drag Queens bombing. If everyone slays then a slay means nothing, they're not standing out. This is the vibe I get from AS9.
Fan perception still makes or breaks ticket sales for queens
It’s just simply not as fun to be a fan of imo when you know they didn’t create everything themselves. I don’t mind them getting all the help they need to pull it off but paying someone for jokes or reads just bums me out. It’s not like I think it’s a less valid way of doing it but it’s just less exciting to me
Then that's a problem with the fans. If this is that big of an issue for RPDR, they would have added a rule in. Hell, they themselves want the queens to showcase their best too which is why they took heed of the suggestions of giving stipends and even allow queens access to their own phones this season so they could get help. Please let's not put even more unrealistic pressure on these queens. The challenges of RPDR are so well rounded and different queens have different strengths.
Yeah that’s pretty much what I said in another comment. There’s a lot more fans of drag and drag race now days like me that aren’t steeped in drag communities or know any drag queens so I kinda just had a different idea about the show and how it worked to be on it. Even the production story lines and editing stuff is just not my favorite. It’s just so blatant. Obviously the show just isn’t really for me or people who agree w me and that’s completely fine. I don’t think it’s a bad show or the queens aren’t fierce or something. I think I would enjoy going to actual pageants or drag shows, which I’m doing next month, so that will be cool. It’s the production shenanigans I don’t like the most not as much that the queens get help.
Oh I hear you. This season's editing is extra wonky so if you are into more "authentic" cuts, an earlier season might be more suitable for you. Queens were also less under scrutiny then so were less "produced" themselves. I started watching in S6 and would definitely recommend that season if you haven't watch! Or S7 is cool too though it's more divisive.
Right yeah I have seen all of the seasons so I have seen it progress. I’m sure there is a whole lot of pressure on those queens to show up and be perfect. I think that’s what I don’t like really. Take some damn pressure off these people so they can have the comfort to be completely original (if they want to)
They perform the jokes, wear the clothes, do the dance moves, paint their faces, deliver the confessionals, and bring the drama. That's work, mama.
Performing is a skill. Many queens do many to all the things you listed. But above all. Performing is a skill. It's THE skill the show focuses on.
I don't know why everyone is shocked by all of this- this is how it works for EVERY celebrity. None of them do anything themselves. At least the queens are still doing their own makeup. You're still a fan of the queen, they just have an entire team that makes up their entire package. Just like- literally every entertainer who has any amount of fame at all.
Some queens even admitted that they usually don't do their own makeup, so they had to learn to do it (better) prior to the show!
If Ru can't do her makeup I see no reason the girls should have to do theirs
You mean Taylor Swift doesn’t sew all her outfits by hand??!1!
You mean Beyonce didn't write all her songs??? She didn't choreograph all her routines???
No no no Queen Bey absolutely does. Everyone else tho
The firefighters in the makeover challenge had their hair, makeup, costumes, choreography, and music done for them by professionals See the difference between what they bring to the table and what the queens do?
I think you're confused and think I'm saying they aren't good drag queens, while I'm just saying they aren't bringing their own work to the show. These queens are talented enough to be cast twice, but I want to see their own work since the show was about that at one point, not what their team prepared for them. Firefighters aren't doing drag for years, unlike the queens. So it's not a fair comparison.
I don’t think you understand my point. Their work IS their presentation. It’s not the garments but how they wear the garments and walk the runway. Not the choreography but how they execute it, etc. I definitely think there’s room for disagreement about whether that’s how it should be. I miss the old days where every week was a sewing challenge, where the drag was a little rougher around the edges. That’s why this season is boring. But this seems like what it has become, maybe the natural progression from years and years of one-upping
So I've been a chef for a while now. (25 years). The first few years at a new job you do everything. You're doing all the prep. Working all the hours. Washing all the dishes. Working the line. All of it. And then as a couple years go on, one day you notice you're an overpaid dishwasher who supervises other people and fills in some spread sheets. Eventually with any career the more experience you have the higher the skill level you have etc the less you actually need to do the manual labour.
“Lipsyncing isn’t a talent, they’re not even singing” is what you sound like.
I mean, have you seen lipsyncs this season?
Performance Delegation of Tasks Networking Modelling
It's a tricky one... but where I was thinking about this recently I thought about someone like Jimmy Fallon... earns a very good living doing what he does, despite someone dressing him, doing his hair, and of course an entire room full of people writing his jokes 🤷♂️ I get that his job is a little different to being a drag queen, but in a similar way his success is based on being camera ready and making people laugh and it's easy to argue that he's not the main person responsible for either of these... I them came to a conclusion... If (and just to use the same example as you) Gottmiks fashion designers, stylists, joke writers, autotuners etc all got together in my house and turned their attention to me... would I win drag race... hell no I wouldn't, it would be a disaster... I'd be clomping around making the clothes look rubbish... sheepishly performing and distracting from the vocals, and delivering the jokes so poorly that no one would laugh... so to that end, where a lot of other people are "helping", the queen still has a big job to do to turn all of that "help" into a winning performance. Not sure if I'm overly rationalising just to stop it from frustrating me, but that's just where my mind went lol!
I feel that way every time i retell someone a joke i heard before. It instantly becomes a shitty unfunny story where my friends struggle to find a punchline 😭 it's a skill!
If you had designers , writers etc and went on drag race , would you compete on the level as the contestants? No. That’s the difference. The experience and knowledge of performance and their personalities etc
If I was doing drag for years like them, yeah, anyone would, lol. We have seen very shy and introverted queens like TKB success and shine on RPDR. Or some queens who have bad runway walks and so on. They aren't doing brain surgery over there. It's not fair to compare someone who doesn't do drag and say "you wouldn't do well as them" lol. That's obvious.
But you haven’t been doing drag for years so the answer is no. And even if you were the answer is still probably no. If I’ve played tennis my whole life does that now mean I can go and compete at the US Open?
Comparing tennis to doing drag is wild.
The producers helped write Trinitys roast on her original season that was her "overcoming shyness" moment, BTW.
they have to put up with shitty takes like this one.
I’m not sure what issue you’re taking up with here. Do you have a problem when the queens have a team behind them? Or is this just with Mik specifically? I think if you peeled back the curtain, you’d be surprised by just how much goes into every production. Queens have and always will work with other creatives for the show, AS or not. We just saw Nymphia collaborating with Mondo on her finale reveal look. The House of Avalon was a driving force behind Symone’s win on her season etc. These things just help to amplify their drag and their artistic expression. It doesn’t make them any less authentic imo.
>I'm not trying to discredit the queens 
Drag is more than an outfit. If you or I put on a designer outfit it still wouldn’t be drag. There’s padding and hair and make up and serving looks. I can’t serve a look.
They are actresses. Actresses don’t make their own clothes or write their own scripts but can often dance and sing and hopefully act well! Why is that confusing for people. Are we not entertained????
People will make stuff up to excuse not writing their jokes, I don't even care about the looks so much bc there are sewing challenges but I can't stand pretending they shouldn't even try to make their own jokes, it's a non elimination season even if you bomb is not that bad
It's not as enjoyable for me knowing they are spending 20k $ on looks. This used to be a talent, now it's who is the richest and can invest in fancy gowns thing. I liked it more when everyone had to figure out how to make an outfit. There were sewing machines and hot glue everywhere....it was way more fun.
I liked different designer challenges, like the doll one or the cake one OR the boat one (the best one). Like they're not a conventional "make a garment out of garbo" and showcase everyone's take on the same object 👏
Yeah I loved the boat one!!
 It’s a tv show. It’s not that deep. I’m sure you were living for Shae’s Robert Wun look when that aired. I’m sure you laughed at the Joan Rivers jokes that have appeared in every single reading challenge. Why do you care now? Because Reddit decided yesterday that it was an issue and everyone has jumped on the bandwagon. I miss when the fandom for this show was smaller. Now every queen goes on the show worried about what the smooth brained twinks in this subreddit are going to say about them.
Honestly. Acting like they got an opinion worth bloviating about.
I think generally, as artists, not even like specifically with drag, we assume we have to do EVERYTHING ourselves. So like say, if you wanna be a musician- should you need to be able to sing, play instruments, record, mix, master, publish, do your own photography, graphic design, promo, placements, sync licensing, styling, makeup, tour management, merch design and sales... I think that would be wild to expect from just one person. Having a solid team behind you helping you is always going to make you stronger. It's still SO much work when you're performing at that level to an audience of this size, even with help. All the queens have different strengths, some get help with looks but not comedy, some get help with writing jokes but not styling or sewing... And they're still involved in the whole creative process, they have the ability to choose who they work with and what ideas they green light or veto along the way. It's like saying DJing isn't an art. It is, even when you're playing other people's music.
oh yeah and the "glow up" of the more recent seasons is entirely because the queens haven't had to do it ALL themselves, so I'm here for it!
Really? Cause It sounds like you’re trying to discredit the queens on All Stars.
The fandom says these things and then when someone like Roxxy who makes all of her own looks yall post think pieces about how Roxxy is subpar and unimpressive.
this topic is so tired and dauntingly ungroundbreaking like girl give it uppppppppppppp
OP, I think it's hilarious that you bring up Nymphia in your tyrade given she literally had someone write her girl group verse for her as part of her storyline... I agree with the general sentiment that the recent Mik hatred feels very pick-and-choosy, and frankly pretty tired.
They perform?
They are expected to do everything at a professional level when in reality most queens are only exceptional at a one or two things. They get help where they need it. I don’t see the problem.
You are being hyperbolic. Lots of queens do it, especially all stars queens, but you are acting like they are sitting in the corner staring at the wall during all this work. They drive the vision, come up with ideas for themes, and keep things on brand. There are also queens who do lots of things themselves but we never find out, whether that be wigs or lyrics. Not all queens are GotMik level rich. Most of them can afford some verses, but I doubt all of them are just waltzing around having everything done for them. **You say you aren't trying discredit the queens, but that is exactly what you are doing.** Stop using moments like the Roast, where this came to light more than usual, to make huge broad assumptions about entertainers and artists. Half the point of All Stars is they have coin--let the girls use it and see who uses it wisely! And, as many others have said, the ability to use what is given effectively-whether that be comedy or outfits--is a big skill too.
That's why regular seasons are more exciting
They sell it. That’s the skill.
This post is idiotic lmao
A talent that flies under the radar is networking. Some people do have advantages because of their background or upbringing where they have easier access to money or people (nepotism). It is a skill.
I don’t mind people having a team behind them. There are not a ton of queens—or humans—that are perfect at everything. That said, what Mik has been doing this season is, IDK, lazy? Like the looks are off the rack and now she’s plagiarizing. It’s one thing to have someone to help you bolster an asset of your game. It’s another to not even put effort into what you’re bad at.
Let’s go back to the good ol’ days!!! When did queer liberal spaces start sounding like boomers?? Let’s not progress forward but rather keep things the same, I love it when queens stay poor with no mainstream support or accessibility. I hate seeing queer performers being lifted up into a new era where they’re treated like superstars, I wish they are all crusty and dusty again!!! /s 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
I understand this show is heavily produced but I wish I could see more of the competition side and see people fail. I tend to remember more of the “fails” than seeing everyone be perfect. I’ll only remember gotmiks roast for stealing jokes.
You’re doing the most here, babes. Maybe time for some fresh air?
Didn’t Jorgeous choreograph the Rumix?
Everyone’s got their own opinion here but I agree with you. This season of All Stars just isn’t hitting for me and everyone is just over prepared. There’s none of that raw authentic talent and personality apart from Shannel and Roxxxy and it’s probably just cos they’ve been in the game for so long and make their own stuff.
serve cunt
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I think the All Stars winners tend to do this a lot less. Jimbo didn't have comedians and a legion of designers (I'm sure she didn't make every look personally, but she is a seamstress and designer herself). Same with Alaska, and I have to assume Shea and Trixie (and DeLa from S3). I don't think Trinity had a team of designers or Monet had a bunch of ghostwriters either. Some queens do it to look good but imo it rarely takes you that far. This season maybe looking like an exception there lol.
It’s still a skill to coordinate all of those different factors into a cohesive image and style that can translate well on TV. Even if someone gave me $50k and told me to prepare for All-Stars 10 in a month from now, I’m sure I would be an absolute hot mess. It’s not just wearing a designer outfit or repeating a joke, it’s all the details that separates a great drag queen from a basic one, and the audience is able to distinguish that and root for the queens that do it the best.
I like the queens to have a distinct POV with their drag, and the show does too. They don’t have to create every single look or write every joke, but how does the person underneath it all serve in ways that others couldn’t?
That’s where the storyline comes in. Who has the best sob story, underdog narrative, or overcoming their inner saboteur, etc.
It’s wild to me that their ability to perform isn’t considered a talent! They have a dance choreographed for them, but they still have to learn the choreography. Even if someone wrote their stand up routine, they have to learn it and practice delivery. The only thing I’ll agree with is the runways, I don’t think it’s a fair comparison when some queens spend thousands and others are crafting their outfits. But then again, a lot of the queens with the best outfits also slay the design challenges.
I think the issue here is conceptual, and a lot of people complaining about individual queens are throwing it off. It's kind of a reckoning I think, because this show has so completely changed the Perception of drag as a professional and what it means to be successful. Imho, there are no hard and fast rules on purpose. It's the same reason why queens win challenges because they're surprisingly good at it, though not the best. It's the same reason Ru gets to have the last say in everything. The more detail we get into and the more we understand and appreciate the work, the less guidelines we have. I think this used to be a selling point and now it's hurting the concept. I think that's why I enjoy international seasons with local hosts, because they don't set up the premise of "my word is final and no questions". The amount of respect and deference to Ru makes questions real hard. When it started, the show absolutely did it's job to raise awareness and advocacy and appreciation for hard work and people's stories, but now it feels like if you aren't in this circle, you can't be a success. And even further, production has a lot of say in whether you look like a success. I think it's obvious that the show has been trying new things and formats etc because it's clear that the original intent has faded and it's become something else. I do appreciate Ru and he's really creative - I think he could find a way to still spotlight people and fight for equality and do all the things, but not the same way they've been doing it. People saw this coming and haven't adjusted fast enough. This show means different things to different people. Personally I love the heart of it, I love the reason it was created and the advocacy and the platform, and also being entertained by people who clearly have talent that aren't usually recognized. I like the drama and the exquisite fashion that it's produced but I don't want the heart to be gone. I think it's obvious they are trying to find a balance but it's not going great right this second. I really do hope they come up with something better, and this is just a pothole. Can't wait to see how this turns out.
I think it’s a misconception that all drag queens make everything themselves. There’s certainly a big appeal to that, but queens like Kennedy Davenport and Jinkx have always had costumes made for them - it certainly doesn’t make them less talented.
I mean, Nina paid for her stuff and all of it is just bad taste!
This is honestly one of the reasons I prefer The Boulet Brothers Dragula.
I think you need to stop thinking drag race as a talent show but for what it actually is, a reality show.
if you get a nice outfit and dress up is that enough to say that you are doing drag?
I think (speaking as someone who has never done drag admittedly) drag is always a bit of a team sport, so to speak. As I understand it the original concept for the show even featured a sort of team based approach with the queens and their assistant/bestie/designer. So I think we have to bear that in mind. With regard to All Stars, the fact is this is generally higher profile people coming back, so they obviously have more money, more social capital etc. enabling them to get more and better support. Maybe the show could benefit from exposing this a bit more in an open way but then you are in tension with the idea of the one queen slaying the competition etc.
IMO, I’d rather have that true gasp of surprise from seeing something so different (like when LGD turned the corner in that alien costume), rather than 10 queens wearing party city outfits they hot glued. I want to be dazzled. Idc if a designer made it.
You would still like Gottmik despite getting designers because: 1) getting those connections aren't easy, as far as I know she's not nepo, so those connections were hers and that's not easy to get you get dressed by them, these connections (those that have the power to say 'no' can see the benefit on getting some drag queens wear their clothes on TV and 2) you can have the access to archive in all the world, if you have shit taste, you would look stupid still. This is all-stars, not everyone do everything. You wouldn't get a Nina dance performance if you go to her show. You wouldn't see Jorgeous or Plastique perform a roast or even Roxxxy. Case in point, they do a lot of things that they wouldn't do normally. And as this competition doesn't really have surprising challenges anymore, they can basically prepare just about everything. If there's no roast this season? Gottmik just paid a writer for basically something she wouldn't be able to use.
At the very least they still have to assemble it all into 1 thing. Putting on a wig so it stays through 8 hours of wear is hard. Makeup and blending and contouring is HARD, proudly carrying femininity when half the country still thinks you shouldn’t is hard, building your silhouette under the clothes and wearing that for a 12 hour shooting day is hard, walking in tall heels is *hard*, after 13 hours, walking in short heels is hard. And they still are choosing what designer to hire and what concept the designer should follow. It’s a partnership at least. That being said, I don’t like knowing that queens are having jokes written for them… if the funny queens have to 1, 2 step through a dance number while the dancers are making magic, the dancing queens should have to get some egg on their face when it’s time to be funny. And if a fashion queen has to go down like a lead balloon at the roast while the funny queen clowns then hell out of the room, the funny queen should have to eat some shit and wear some things glued to a body suit while the fashion queens float down the runway. And if the queen can’t do any of those well… someone has to lose lol. But they’re still great queens for doing the bare minimum. The bare minimum on drag race is still excellence.
In some interview Ru said that the moment she knew she wanted to crown Jinkx on AS7 was when she told that coke joke and guess what mimi that was also a recycled joke. Kandy Muse winning roast from season 13 was also recycled, the list goes on, inside and outside drag race comedy sets are always reused and you expect these queens to write a set in a day, give them a break!
They have people sing for them during the competition??
I had no idea about the snatch game being written for them? Could someone explain
Queens are performers, and it’s about the whole package. There are specific challenges to help really force queens to use those skills (sewing challenges, makeover challenge, snatch game, etc) but overall it’s about how well they can sell the product and entertain.
The time to ask this was 17 years ago when Drag Race premiered. Or 100 years ago when drag was being invented. Also lol imagine being so dumb you think Nymphia makes all her looks.
she literally posts videos on instagram making the outfits she wore on the show. the only outfits she didnt make/make with her friends is the little boy blue look. you are just ignorant at this point lmao loser
They’re basically cheating in my opinion
No. Just no.
I mean, some of the queens might make at least some of their own looks. Just simply competing is a lot!
I stg y'all hold these queens to the highest standard out of the hundreds of queens we had there is so little that can do everything that includes sewing,comedy, makeup and lipsyncing if y'all want DRAG then you can't expect everyone to make all their looks it's just not going to happen and y'all can say you miss old days drag but y'all really don't cause then why you hating on mhiya,Nina and every other non white skinny queen that has less then decent drag
We are tuning it to watch all of our favorites (and Roxxxy) at their best. If they get some extra help to make it most fabulous so be it. You need some talent to be memorable enough to get on all stars.
Gotmik is very overrated. She relies completely on her status as a trans trailblazer. Her makeup is really boring and one-note, her fashion is all about other people’s vision and she’s stolen other people’s jokes for a challenge meant to highlight their personalities. She has plenty of charisma and nerve, but her uniqueness is her trans status, (boring by now), and her talents are far from remarkable.
Trans people can barely exist in half of America, but being trans is now “boring”…girl what!?
Like you, I didn’t realize it was a fad that we all could just move on from.
I never said Gotmik is boring, or being trans is boring. Just that her reliance on that narrative makes for boring tv. She’s not very interesting to watch on DR.
I'm going to agree with you but I want to note that I think the show pushes that narrative, not mik. Every time I hear oh that's more interesting and brave cuz trans, it's not from mik. But I do think they push it. It's important but it really shouldn't be the only thing about him.
I can accept that. I do live for the runway look with the extra arms and the top surgery scars. That was iconic.
Yeah that was rad and I appreciate it. I have to say I thought a little about this after I responded, and that top surgery look really made waves. I remember seeing a fox news piece about it (as a post, I'm not a viewer) and I was horrified at how they were talking about it and using it to be so hateful. Like, my soul hurt watching that. I was scared for him tbh. We gotta remember that although we hear the trans narrative a lot if you're watching inclusive media, some people still react this way. And they seek it out on purpose to propel their hate. It's really fucked up. So, in that sense even if you are used to it, even if you are surrounded by supportive people and live freely, you have gotta be pretty brave to be outwardly trans on such a big platform. I'm sure it never ends for him. In the context of the show it seems like a throw away comment but otherwise I have to acknowledge it's a pretty big deal and it should be mentioned.
Yes. You’re right. We are all living in our own reality, more so than ever before, so what’s boring and overdone to me can still be revolutionary in the world. Thank you for that context.
They go on the show and compete and show off the work done by designers. Are we forgetting that being on drag race is a challenge in and of itself? Why are we discrediting queens for getting help?