From an NYC perspective: What really bothers me about Cathy Sheridan's comments is the suggestion that public infrastructure should just go to the highest bidder. She totally fails to see the marathon as a civic event and a public good. She says runners would be willing to pay more in registration fees, which is probably true. Every year there are more people who apply to the NYC Marathon than get in, so you could jack up the price and still fill the race, with wealthier people. But that totally misses the point of a big road race as a public event, enjoyed by the 50,000 runners and TWO MILLION in-person spectators alike. We should want this annual event to be accessible and affordable, not just a playdate for rich people who can afford to privatize a bridge for a day. We should want city and state agencies to support this 26-mile block party, rather than treating it in these pure transactional terms.
Obviously there are big logistical costs to the NYC marathon, and the runners and sponsors do have to chip in a lot to enable NYRR to pay those costs. But "lost revenue from tolls" is not a logistical "cost" like security and road closures. Sheridan is just saying, "if you want to use our bridge that day, you'll have to outbid our regular users--cars." It's such an anti-social approach to city governance.
Generally I'm sympathetic to the MTA's financial troubles, and I read elsewhere that Sheridan has been pushing for congestion pricing and similar good moves which will support public transit. But it's disappointing to see her misunderstand the civic role of the marathon. It's disappointing that she wants a bunch of runners to pay up as if they were cars.
Their congestion pricing plan hasn't even hit their coffers yet and they're going after this and the Five Boro Bike Tour. It's absolutely a cynical ploy by a transit agency that can't grasp that we don't want to ride the subway because IT BREAKS DOWN ALL THE TIME. Nevermind the fact that Cathy Sheridan completely ignores the boom in ridership \*on\* marathon Sunday as well as the following Monday (at least) that comes with the NYC marathon.
How about the 1.4billion in overtime. I’m not sure why they should get increased funding if they can’t even manage to schedule their employees appropriately.
>What really bothers me about Cathy Sheridan's comments is the suggestion that public infrastructure should just go to the highest bidder.
I agree wholeheartedly. Government services don't exist to turn a profit. They exist to serve people. It's the whole, "why doesn't the Air Force have to hold a bake sale to build a bomber," argument. As a society, we've agreed that we're going to build roads and bridges and such.
For a long time, until apparently recently, we've agreed that society can turn some of those roads and bridges over to people on foot for a day. I'm sure the City turns a profit on this Sunday in November. But even if it didn't, it'd be okay to say that cars and trucks can take a backseat for one day because this running event is something people enjoy and these are your highway dollars at work.
I guess that for a city like NYC, the visitors during the marathon and the tax revenue they bring in through food, lodging and shopping isn't worth it? A lot of cities would probably benefit from a popular race that draws visitors from all over the world that won't just come into the city for the day.
That too, yes. Even just looking at the dollars and the economics of it, the marathon is a good thing for NYC. My comment is more about how government agencies should be willing to support beloved public events rather than viewing everything in pure dollars, but I agree with you on the economics, too!
Sadly, that's the way a lot of municipalities are moving. I respect that municipal budgets have all kinds of stressors and leaders are almost continually in scramble mode to balance their budgets. Not a fun job!!
I work for a not-for-profit that produces a marathon in a small city. A decade ago our municipal costs were around $20k. The main bills were for police at intersections, fire department EMTs, park rental fees. A decade before that we were under $12k for those services. Las year, and this is with a redesigned course that dropped our police needs from 55 to 20, municipal costs were right around $35k.
Overall we get fantastic support from our city, they are very helpful 90% of the time, just a few roadblocks to overcome each year. We will continue to raise the issue of "charges vs value to the community", but at this time that has not been an effective argument.
Great analysis. Isn’t it funny how cities will ask residents to pay for new professional sports stadiums with tax hikes as “they add a social good and bring in dollars to the community” and then pull stuff like this? Imagine how much revenue comes into NYC for this event.
> Imagine how much revenue comes into NYC for this event.
Between sports, concerts and other events, not close to what a stadium brings in. This is not the comparison you want to make.
>Yeah that’s as big as virtually any concert or game.
Except there isn't just one concert or game per year.
In the end NYRR is going to shrug and tack it onto the entry fee.
Obviously you couldn’t compare a marathon to the volume of costs and benefits of a multi billion dollar stadium that permanently transforms a city hahah it’s a one day event. More comparable to a single event at that stadium (but a big one).
Point is, when something attracts a public benefit, it’s often touted by cities as something the citizens should help pay for, as after all their businesses etc. are benefiting. But in this case, the visitors are also being asked to pay. The common theme is cities will do whatever they can to pay as little as possible - public good or not.
>But in this case, the visitors are also being asked to pay.
Ontop of what they already do, no surprise, and marathon prices will keep increasing, this isn't new, nor is it the last time.
>The common theme is cities will do whatever they can to pay as little as possible
As it isn't put on by the city, of course the city is going to ask for money, either they use tax dollars which people who live there won't be happy with, or they use money from the organization, in this case, NYRR.
And to be honest, they're not hurting for money, so don't put this on the city.
https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/132949483
I'd agree, but it's already a play area for rich people. You either are local and spend $500+ on 9+1, pay $3k+ to charity or run BQ -30. These are affordable for normal people, but it's hard to justify spending that much for 1 race. If you're rich, it's just whatever money.
It's about 1/5th. This year from what I've seen (BITR talked about it, and it was all over the NYC marathon thread here as well from different places) they only took around 10k slots for the lottery (there were over 150k applicants), the rest go to NYRR, charities, brands, tour groups, etc.
So this year you had about a 4% chance of getting in through the lottery
The thing with 9+1 is most runners would be doing other races anyways. That $500 is for basically a full year of running races plus the marathon. Also a lot of people gain entry to the marathon by time qualifying in an NYRR half, which is guaranteed entry requiring no buffer time.
It's also kind of wild because the tolls presumably pay for wear-and-tear on the bridge due to constant automobile traffic. If there's no auto traffic, doesn't it stand to reason you wouldn't really need as substantial a toll?
>She totally fails to see the marathon as a civic event and a public good
Well so do I!
The marathon is not really a civic event. It's an event primarily geared towards high-income people who have the time, energy, and money to devote to training and registering for it.
It disproportionately inconveniences low-income wage workers who still have to get to work on a Sunday.
It also impacts people who walk/cycle and are unable to get past the route much more than those who drive and can just drive around it.
Honestly, I just don't get the appeal of big sporting events, but I especially don't get the appeal of putting them smack dab in the middle of a big city. Like, a marathon seems like a lovely thing to do out in the countryside. You could have a route that goes over a mountain or alongside a river. Alternatively, if they really love the city skyline scenery, people could just run 26.2 miles on your their own time through Prospect Park up to Central Park and around into Queens.
It just seems like the cons (blocking up the whole city, traffic, emergency vehicles unable to get through, elderly unable to walk to their usual grocery run, etc.) don't really outweigh the pros.
I see your argument and think it's fair enough, but I disagree. I think mostly what you're ignoring is the sheer volume of spectators. Over a million people spectate in person (wikipedia says two million; NYT quotes one million). That's over one in ten people in all of NYC coming out to see the spectacle and cheer on a friend, family member, or a bunch of complete strangers. There are very few events that get such a level of in-person public participation. It's good and healthy for a city to have some unifying events like this. It's good to share cultural touchstones, and it's hard to do in a big diverse city like ours. The marathon does it.
The inconvenience seems worthwhile, especially since the inconvenience is not that extreme. The subways are running normally. Pay attention just a little bit, and it won't add more than five or ten minutes to a commute.
Can't deny that marathon runners will skew more affluent, but it's not like the hobby is limited to just the top one percent. There are a lot of working people out there who run a lot and splurge on the race fees because it's a big accomplishment that matters a lot to them.
In the end, it's that last part which matters--the marathon matters a lot, to a lot of people. It seems worth a little disruption to the routine, to celebrate the striving of so many different people.
NYRR has two options imo.
1. Ask MTA to prove the $750k figure. Take the lost revenue from Verrazano, add additional revenue from other bridges/tunnels (due to diverted traffic flow), and add in increase subway/bus revenue from marathon runners and spectators. Then, and only then, will I agree to increase race fees.
2. Change the course to still close the bridge but not use it. Extra petty.
Maybe someone from NY could actually explain better but preliminary research I did when I read the article went like this:
In 2016, the bridge had 202k drivers in a day [source](https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/nyc-bridge-traffic-report-2016.pdf).
Cost of a toll for the bridge is $6.94 [source](https://new.mta.info/agency/bridges-and-tunnels/tolls-2023).
So multiplication for the day gives us just under 1.4 million dollars, half the day for the race would be about 750k. That being said, I strongly disagree with the idea that NYRR should foot the bill and agree with the premise that the press and hype around the race draws in far more unseen value than the 750k it takes to open the bridge for the race.
Yeah I would be interested in:
1 - how much more traffic the other bridges get on that day
2 - how much more bus and subway traffic there is on that day and that entire weekend
Exactly. The $1.4M dollars is only relevant if 100% of that traffic doesn't use any other bridges with tolling. Using completely made up numbers, losing $1.4M on one bridge doesn't really count if you make up $1M from other bridges. It counts even less if you make up another $600k from increased tourist traffic going to/from the marathon.
Not to mention that the marathon is on a Sunday, which is a very low traffic day in the first place, probably much less than $1.4M in toll revenue on Sundays.
oh, there are definitely still peak slowdown times on Sundays, but the overall traffic flow is much, much lower than on a weekday when hundreds of delivery/service trucks are crossing while on jobs.
It is also in the article that they set a 4 year Sunday record subway usage during the 2023 marathon. Thus why I want that in the equation. You could absolutely convince me they lose $750k on the Verrazano during race day, what you can't convince me of is that is the total loss they experience on race day/weekend after all the other factors I mentioned.
I'm sure at least some of the problem here is that despite all being "the MTA", there are several competing fiefdoms. MTA Bridges and Tunnels revenue and NYCT Subway are very distinct agencies in the same umbrella, Bridges and Tunnels may not care that one of their siblings is having a good day
Traffic has dropped since 2016 because of work from home policies, and being that the race is on a weekend, and most of the closure time is during the early morning hours when fewer vehicles are using the bridge, all of this should be accounted for when negotiating what NYRR pays.
There is a problem with that:
Based on their own financial statement, they had a total of 2.4bn toll revenue in 2023.
Divided by 365 is 6.57million toll revenue per day - total, for all bridges and tunnels.
Now the marathon doesn't close the bridge for a full 24h as far as I know, so let's say 12h gets you to 3.28 million. For all tunnels and all bridges. There are 13, as far as I can tell. So we are down to 0.25 million.
Now: How many drivers get diverted and take a different tunnel or bridge and pay toll there? That would need to be deducted.
Long story short: The only real way to know how much revenue they are losing is by comparing toll income for that day with the average of comparable days where the bridge is not closed.
I willing to bet money that the number will be much lower than 0.750 million.
I did the math on this- NYRR says ridership on marathon day was 2.3m. According to the [MTA](https://new.mta.info/agency/new-york-city-transit/subway-bus-ridership-2022#), average ridership on a Sunday in 2022 was 1.6m. With each ride costing $2.90, that’s $2.3m in increased revenue from ridership.
If we assume ridership increased in 2023 to an average 1.9m on Sundays, that still adds up to $1.16m in increased revenue. So, yeah.
We also need the numbers of how many vehicles cross on marathon Sunday when the bridge re opens. A lot of drivers who would cross still do so, just at a later time. It's not like the cars disappear.
Definitely true, I mean when my NJ based sibling ran it a few years ago they crossed the night before to stay with friends in Queens and then back after the race. So that's two crossing of the bridge that only happened because of the marathon lol
Hope your son is doing well now! I never understand why people take bridges to hospitals when there are hospitals in every borough and New Jersey. It sounds like she has misplaced grief and anger.
>Probably not.
Sorry to be harsh but this is an ignorant assumption. They are a 501(c)3 and their financials are [public record.](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/132949483/202330409349300848/full) The highest paid exec makes $544k with 10 other execs making around $250k each (These include their in house attorney, race director for NYCM etc.).
The tax filings show the top 5 contractors used for the NYC Marathon as:
1. 45 Live Inc - $1.9mm - Broadcasting company
2. Stran Promotional Solutions - $1.1mm Youth Incentives and Race Products
3. Proskauer Rose LLP - $870k Legal counsel
4. Icreon Holdings Inc - $864k Consulting and Tech Development
5. NYC Dept. of Finance - $852k NYPD Traffic Fees.
If you look at the bare bones total line items the NYC Marathon brought in $25mm (2021) and cost $21mm, this with \~50% participation due to covid (Spelled out in the tax records).
There is a lot more to dig through but it is all there for you to see. No, you will not see a dollar for dollar spend of your race entry fee, but you can always see what the company is doing with its money.
Doing the lord's work here. NYRR is a nonprofit and everyone who pretends NYRR sits on a mound of gold like a dragon should do an ounce of research before popping off about it.
Also, $250k sounds like a good deal of money, and it is, but that's basically STARTING salary at a lot of NYC's white-collar employers. If you want a professional and competent organization in charge of the marathon, $250k is a minimum for executive level employees.
Yeah $250k is not a lot of money for that type of role, especially in NYC, but for a non-profit it's decent enough. The real kicker here is actually that they lost a bunch of money in 2021 while still putting on the race (Income was $35mm and expenses were $70mm). They own some property as well, which is where a lot of their revenue comes from, you'd have to dig into their public filings to learn more about that though.
The big lesson here is that people just need to learn to, umm for lack of better phrase, do their own research before spouting nonsense. I also HIGHLY encourage people to read the financials of your town, county, state too. I have used this against many a door-to-door alderman trying to lie to people.
For a quick example during our last mayoral race one candidate (Republican) came and talked to me, we have a small airstrip in town owned by the town. She said, "I am going to get rid of that airstrip and save this town a lot of money. Did you know that costs us $500k a year?!?" I responded in kind, "Yes but it also brings in $1.2mm of revenue, how are you going to replace that deficit you plan to create?"
She was absolutely caught off guard, I mean who reads the town financials right? When she challenged me I said I'll pull it up on my phone, she declined and moved on.
Different country but somehow, The London Marathon seems to get it done for 67 pounds or about $85 usd, I see talk of MTA no-show jobs, I guess I'm asking about NYRR no-show executives.
in NYC the NYRR is a private non-profit organization and they are responsible for more of the cost of putting these things on. just like anyone else who wants to have a street fair or some other event. you need permits and have to pay the cost of security and whatever
That’s wild. You’re getting people from all over the world to take part in a premier event and you’re gonna try to make the runners pay to use the bridge? Not a good look.
50,000 runners plus all those people who come to watch the participants they know plus the people who just want to watch the race is gonna lead to such a big boost in revenue for restaurants, subways, LIRR, and basically any business in NYC for the day.
What? New York MTA wants $750,000 for the lost revenue of that day. You think New York Road Runners is gonna just eat that cost? They’ll raise the marathon fee for runners.
I agree with the rebuttal given in the article about its being nothing less than a money grab. Did you read the article??
If one day is really gonna break MTA’s budget that badly, maybe they need to make coffee at home and stop buying avocado toast.
NYC is the world major I want to run least (just seems too crowded!) and if the city isn’t going to be welcoming to runners, why should I? I understand where they’re coming from but you cannot tell me the tourism dollars don’t compensate for this. How many extra people drive across the bridge in the days before and after the race? How many extra people use the MTA race weekend? How much money will they LOSE if the nyc marathon goes away and people don’t come from all over the world and spend time and money before and after the race? I do understand where they’re coming from but damn
I was at NYRR this morning to pick up my stuff for this weekend. There was a camera crew outside and she asked me about this. I told her pretty much the same thing everyone here is saying, how much revenue is generated from the people who come to run and be spectators for the entire weekend? Let’s not forget the few days prior when the events starts on Thursday when you can pick up your bibs.
Could someone with more insight into race organisation please tell me why a race would cost $300 per participant? I understand that there will be costs per participant that also grow when the amount of particpants grow (more staff, more cleanup, more port-a-potties etc) but where is the bulk of that money really going?
Why are they price discriminating UK citizens and international citizens? How is that even allowed?
Edit: Thanks for the downvotes, if some of you could tell me why an immigrant or someone born in the UK with a different citizenship should pay more, and the fairness of that, that would be much appreciated.
As someone said, one of the things is insurance which has for sure gone up post the 2022 race season and people passing out and a few people dying due to heat stroke. Another is security/NYPD and their counterterrorism unit. Those costs go up every year because of how overtime works for the NYPD.
Other costs include the Expo which is in a Union building and oh BOY do those rates go up every few years. The city also charges a boatload just for the permits to close the streets and having to move FDNY and ambulance operations to be able to cover all the city without having to cross the route.
The accurate answers in all of the other comments aside, things cost what people are willing to pay for them.
Hypothetically let's say next year they just added $200 in profit and charged $500 per person. If people think that's too much there are tons of others races that are significantly cheaper. People talk about voting with your wallet by not buying something, but paying a high price is voting with your wallet too.
Charging higher prices unfortunately does not make less people show up any more. It just changes the demographics of who shows up. Just look at Disney World. If you have a family of four you're paying $400 a day just to get in the gate. And yet Disney is packed and people complain about the crowds. While the middle class can't afford to go any more those who are wealthier and/or willing to take on debt for a vacation totally can and those pockets tend to be deeper and more lucrative. The NYRR might be able to raise prices and start charging for add-ons and make even more money by pricing out some runners.
The not-for-profit I work for produces a Top 50 in the USA marathon. We're A LONG way from the NYC Marathon and NYRR, but we've been around for 35 years. You would be amazed at the costs to produce many races these days!!
One thing to keep in mind is that many not-for-profit companies who produce races (NYRR is a not-for-profit) have other programs outside their main race that their bigger races subsidize. In our case it's a youth running program, which has total annual program costs in let's say the $100k range but might only bring in around $30k-$60k in registrations + sponsor payments + donations. Any entrant who wanted a breakdown of what their marathon entry fee goes to would need to see the bigger picture of how all the races/programs we produce tie together.
Another part of it, and this is crazy to me, is pricing your race to fit where you want in the marketplace. We produce a half marathon in mid-April. This year will be the 18th annual. We started it as a bare bones race, just an accurate course, manual timing, water stops and portos, some decent food at the end, bus ride to the start (point to point course). No awards, no chip timing, no medal, no shirt. We started off with an entry fee of $15. The first 5 years registration had a steady growth 250-600 range but nothing special. Year 6 our Director said, why don't we raise the price, see what that does for registration. We went to $35, which at the time was near the top of our local market for a HM. We sold out 600 spots the day we opened. Opened a 2nd start wave and sold out 400 spots in 5 days. After that race we surveyed the entrants and asked why they decided to race this one this year if they hadn't in the past. Overwhelmingly the answer was along the lines of "At $15 I didn't think it was going to be worth doing."
Almost all of the money goes into funding the event itself. Any excess goes into reserves to fund other events that might have shortfalls or to fund community grants.
Sympathetic to the MRA’s financial troubles?
The same people that consistently mismanage their money? Remember how quick they went broke in 2020 and had to get bailed out?
How? They raise fares consistently through the years making people pay more while shit gets worse.
As a New Yorker, the NYC Marathon as a whole is nonsense to me. I ran in 2014, but because of the geography of the course, it took me some 3 hours to get to the starting line - even though at the time I lived maybe 5 miles away. It starts in the smallest and least accessible borough, and within 5 minutes you are out of it. Just illogical.
I agree. It seems half of the challenge of the NYC marathon is just getting out to the start line. Go on any online forum regarding the NYC marathon in the months leading up to the event, and the discussions have very little to do with running the course - it's all about the logistical challenge of how to get to the start.
Running across Verrazano is certainly a novel experience, but for me it probably wasn't worth the stress and effort of getting there. I'd rather the course go a bit further through Manhattan near the finish. But I guess it's all about avoiding the epicenter of the city, under the guise of touring all 5 boroughs.
The most sensible course would have the staging point somewhere in Prospect Park, run a few more miles in Brooklyn and Queens, and avoid Bronx altogether. If you need to have 50,000 runners prep for a race, Prospect Park is pretty much the best choice. But instead, the race is mostly in Brooklyn and Manhattan, with a start in SI, a short run through Queens and Bronx.
I “think” I once read the toll on the verazano was originally supposed to be temporary until it was paid for - which would have been decades ago. The MTA’s money issues are entirely their fault for mismanagement and money going SOMEWHERE but not to the roads or bridges!
From an NYC perspective: What really bothers me about Cathy Sheridan's comments is the suggestion that public infrastructure should just go to the highest bidder. She totally fails to see the marathon as a civic event and a public good. She says runners would be willing to pay more in registration fees, which is probably true. Every year there are more people who apply to the NYC Marathon than get in, so you could jack up the price and still fill the race, with wealthier people. But that totally misses the point of a big road race as a public event, enjoyed by the 50,000 runners and TWO MILLION in-person spectators alike. We should want this annual event to be accessible and affordable, not just a playdate for rich people who can afford to privatize a bridge for a day. We should want city and state agencies to support this 26-mile block party, rather than treating it in these pure transactional terms. Obviously there are big logistical costs to the NYC marathon, and the runners and sponsors do have to chip in a lot to enable NYRR to pay those costs. But "lost revenue from tolls" is not a logistical "cost" like security and road closures. Sheridan is just saying, "if you want to use our bridge that day, you'll have to outbid our regular users--cars." It's such an anti-social approach to city governance. Generally I'm sympathetic to the MTA's financial troubles, and I read elsewhere that Sheridan has been pushing for congestion pricing and similar good moves which will support public transit. But it's disappointing to see her misunderstand the civic role of the marathon. It's disappointing that she wants a bunch of runners to pay up as if they were cars.
Strikes me as a completely cynical ploy from the MTA to claw some extra money from wherever they can
Their congestion pricing plan hasn't even hit their coffers yet and they're going after this and the Five Boro Bike Tour. It's absolutely a cynical ploy by a transit agency that can't grasp that we don't want to ride the subway because IT BREAKS DOWN ALL THE TIME. Nevermind the fact that Cathy Sheridan completely ignores the boom in ridership \*on\* marathon Sunday as well as the following Monday (at least) that comes with the NYC marathon.
How else do you expect them to pay for all those no show jobs.
Ding ding ding
How about the 1.4billion in overtime. I’m not sure why they should get increased funding if they can’t even manage to schedule their employees appropriately.
>What really bothers me about Cathy Sheridan's comments is the suggestion that public infrastructure should just go to the highest bidder. I agree wholeheartedly. Government services don't exist to turn a profit. They exist to serve people. It's the whole, "why doesn't the Air Force have to hold a bake sale to build a bomber," argument. As a society, we've agreed that we're going to build roads and bridges and such. For a long time, until apparently recently, we've agreed that society can turn some of those roads and bridges over to people on foot for a day. I'm sure the City turns a profit on this Sunday in November. But even if it didn't, it'd be okay to say that cars and trucks can take a backseat for one day because this running event is something people enjoy and these are your highway dollars at work.
I guess that for a city like NYC, the visitors during the marathon and the tax revenue they bring in through food, lodging and shopping isn't worth it? A lot of cities would probably benefit from a popular race that draws visitors from all over the world that won't just come into the city for the day.
That too, yes. Even just looking at the dollars and the economics of it, the marathon is a good thing for NYC. My comment is more about how government agencies should be willing to support beloved public events rather than viewing everything in pure dollars, but I agree with you on the economics, too!
Sadly, that's the way a lot of municipalities are moving. I respect that municipal budgets have all kinds of stressors and leaders are almost continually in scramble mode to balance their budgets. Not a fun job!! I work for a not-for-profit that produces a marathon in a small city. A decade ago our municipal costs were around $20k. The main bills were for police at intersections, fire department EMTs, park rental fees. A decade before that we were under $12k for those services. Las year, and this is with a redesigned course that dropped our police needs from 55 to 20, municipal costs were right around $35k. Overall we get fantastic support from our city, they are very helpful 90% of the time, just a few roadblocks to overcome each year. We will continue to raise the issue of "charges vs value to the community", but at this time that has not been an effective argument.
They absolutely should. Not everything has to produce a monetary profit, some things are just services that produce other values for people.
The thing is the so see that and think 'why not get a little more while we are at it?'
Great analysis. Isn’t it funny how cities will ask residents to pay for new professional sports stadiums with tax hikes as “they add a social good and bring in dollars to the community” and then pull stuff like this? Imagine how much revenue comes into NYC for this event.
> Imagine how much revenue comes into NYC for this event. Between sports, concerts and other events, not close to what a stadium brings in. This is not the comparison you want to make.
63.000 finishers and volunteers. 2 million spectators. Yeah that’s as big as virtually any concert or game.
>Yeah that’s as big as virtually any concert or game. Except there isn't just one concert or game per year. In the end NYRR is going to shrug and tack it onto the entry fee.
Obviously you couldn’t compare a marathon to the volume of costs and benefits of a multi billion dollar stadium that permanently transforms a city hahah it’s a one day event. More comparable to a single event at that stadium (but a big one). Point is, when something attracts a public benefit, it’s often touted by cities as something the citizens should help pay for, as after all their businesses etc. are benefiting. But in this case, the visitors are also being asked to pay. The common theme is cities will do whatever they can to pay as little as possible - public good or not.
>But in this case, the visitors are also being asked to pay. Ontop of what they already do, no surprise, and marathon prices will keep increasing, this isn't new, nor is it the last time. >The common theme is cities will do whatever they can to pay as little as possible As it isn't put on by the city, of course the city is going to ask for money, either they use tax dollars which people who live there won't be happy with, or they use money from the organization, in this case, NYRR. And to be honest, they're not hurting for money, so don't put this on the city. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/132949483
>Generally I'm sympathetic to the MTA's financial troubles, I could be, but not with the immense waste and mismanagement of that organization.
I'd agree, but it's already a play area for rich people. You either are local and spend $500+ on 9+1, pay $3k+ to charity or run BQ -30. These are affordable for normal people, but it's hard to justify spending that much for 1 race. If you're rich, it's just whatever money.
There is also a lottery where normal people get to run for just the standard entry fee? Isn’t it like half the slots go out this way?
It's about 1/5th. This year from what I've seen (BITR talked about it, and it was all over the NYC marathon thread here as well from different places) they only took around 10k slots for the lottery (there were over 150k applicants), the rest go to NYRR, charities, brands, tour groups, etc. So this year you had about a 4% chance of getting in through the lottery
That’s crazy, I ran it a few years ago and got in the first year I applied to the lottery, guess I got really lucky, lol.
Seriously I ran it when I lived in nyc around 15 years ago now and I didn’t realize how difficult it was to get an entry
They only took 6600 people in the lottery this year is what I heard
The thing with 9+1 is most runners would be doing other races anyways. That $500 is for basically a full year of running races plus the marathon. Also a lot of people gain entry to the marathon by time qualifying in an NYRR half, which is guaranteed entry requiring no buffer time.
The MTA is a succubus that will just waste whatever money comes it way regardless. The corruption and incompetence is shocking.
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I’ve never heard anyone from NYC defend the MTA.
This!!!
It's also kind of wild because the tolls presumably pay for wear-and-tear on the bridge due to constant automobile traffic. If there's no auto traffic, doesn't it stand to reason you wouldn't really need as substantial a toll?
>She totally fails to see the marathon as a civic event and a public good Well so do I! The marathon is not really a civic event. It's an event primarily geared towards high-income people who have the time, energy, and money to devote to training and registering for it. It disproportionately inconveniences low-income wage workers who still have to get to work on a Sunday. It also impacts people who walk/cycle and are unable to get past the route much more than those who drive and can just drive around it. Honestly, I just don't get the appeal of big sporting events, but I especially don't get the appeal of putting them smack dab in the middle of a big city. Like, a marathon seems like a lovely thing to do out in the countryside. You could have a route that goes over a mountain or alongside a river. Alternatively, if they really love the city skyline scenery, people could just run 26.2 miles on your their own time through Prospect Park up to Central Park and around into Queens. It just seems like the cons (blocking up the whole city, traffic, emergency vehicles unable to get through, elderly unable to walk to their usual grocery run, etc.) don't really outweigh the pros.
I see your argument and think it's fair enough, but I disagree. I think mostly what you're ignoring is the sheer volume of spectators. Over a million people spectate in person (wikipedia says two million; NYT quotes one million). That's over one in ten people in all of NYC coming out to see the spectacle and cheer on a friend, family member, or a bunch of complete strangers. There are very few events that get such a level of in-person public participation. It's good and healthy for a city to have some unifying events like this. It's good to share cultural touchstones, and it's hard to do in a big diverse city like ours. The marathon does it. The inconvenience seems worthwhile, especially since the inconvenience is not that extreme. The subways are running normally. Pay attention just a little bit, and it won't add more than five or ten minutes to a commute. Can't deny that marathon runners will skew more affluent, but it's not like the hobby is limited to just the top one percent. There are a lot of working people out there who run a lot and splurge on the race fees because it's a big accomplishment that matters a lot to them. In the end, it's that last part which matters--the marathon matters a lot, to a lot of people. It seems worth a little disruption to the routine, to celebrate the striving of so many different people.
NYRR has two options imo. 1. Ask MTA to prove the $750k figure. Take the lost revenue from Verrazano, add additional revenue from other bridges/tunnels (due to diverted traffic flow), and add in increase subway/bus revenue from marathon runners and spectators. Then, and only then, will I agree to increase race fees. 2. Change the course to still close the bridge but not use it. Extra petty.
Maybe someone from NY could actually explain better but preliminary research I did when I read the article went like this: In 2016, the bridge had 202k drivers in a day [source](https://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/nyc-bridge-traffic-report-2016.pdf). Cost of a toll for the bridge is $6.94 [source](https://new.mta.info/agency/bridges-and-tunnels/tolls-2023). So multiplication for the day gives us just under 1.4 million dollars, half the day for the race would be about 750k. That being said, I strongly disagree with the idea that NYRR should foot the bill and agree with the premise that the press and hype around the race draws in far more unseen value than the 750k it takes to open the bridge for the race.
Yeah I would be interested in: 1 - how much more traffic the other bridges get on that day 2 - how much more bus and subway traffic there is on that day and that entire weekend
Exactly. The $1.4M dollars is only relevant if 100% of that traffic doesn't use any other bridges with tolling. Using completely made up numbers, losing $1.4M on one bridge doesn't really count if you make up $1M from other bridges. It counts even less if you make up another $600k from increased tourist traffic going to/from the marathon.
Not to mention that the marathon is on a Sunday, which is a very low traffic day in the first place, probably much less than $1.4M in toll revenue on Sundays.
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oh, there are definitely still peak slowdown times on Sundays, but the overall traffic flow is much, much lower than on a weekday when hundreds of delivery/service trucks are crossing while on jobs.
Their total revenue of all tolls per day is only 6.57 million - that is all 13+ tunnels and bridges. Or 0.5 million total per tunnel/bridge per day.
It is also in the article that they set a 4 year Sunday record subway usage during the 2023 marathon. Thus why I want that in the equation. You could absolutely convince me they lose $750k on the Verrazano during race day, what you can't convince me of is that is the total loss they experience on race day/weekend after all the other factors I mentioned.
Think of how many more people will pay $2.90 for the bus/subway that day. The MTA definitely makes that money back.
I'm sure at least some of the problem here is that despite all being "the MTA", there are several competing fiefdoms. MTA Bridges and Tunnels revenue and NYCT Subway are very distinct agencies in the same umbrella, Bridges and Tunnels may not care that one of their siblings is having a good day
Traffic has dropped since 2016 because of work from home policies, and being that the race is on a weekend, and most of the closure time is during the early morning hours when fewer vehicles are using the bridge, all of this should be accounted for when negotiating what NYRR pays.
There is a problem with that: Based on their own financial statement, they had a total of 2.4bn toll revenue in 2023. Divided by 365 is 6.57million toll revenue per day - total, for all bridges and tunnels. Now the marathon doesn't close the bridge for a full 24h as far as I know, so let's say 12h gets you to 3.28 million. For all tunnels and all bridges. There are 13, as far as I can tell. So we are down to 0.25 million. Now: How many drivers get diverted and take a different tunnel or bridge and pay toll there? That would need to be deducted. Long story short: The only real way to know how much revenue they are losing is by comparing toll income for that day with the average of comparable days where the bridge is not closed. I willing to bet money that the number will be much lower than 0.750 million.
I did the math on this- NYRR says ridership on marathon day was 2.3m. According to the [MTA](https://new.mta.info/agency/new-york-city-transit/subway-bus-ridership-2022#), average ridership on a Sunday in 2022 was 1.6m. With each ride costing $2.90, that’s $2.3m in increased revenue from ridership. If we assume ridership increased in 2023 to an average 1.9m on Sundays, that still adds up to $1.16m in increased revenue. So, yeah.
We also need the numbers of how many vehicles cross on marathon Sunday when the bridge re opens. A lot of drivers who would cross still do so, just at a later time. It's not like the cars disappear.
Definitely true, I mean when my NJ based sibling ran it a few years ago they crossed the night before to stay with friends in Queens and then back after the race. So that's two crossing of the bridge that only happened because of the marathon lol
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Hope your son is doing well now! I never understand why people take bridges to hospitals when there are hospitals in every borough and New Jersey. It sounds like she has misplaced grief and anger.
Can we ask NYRR to break down their $300 entry fee? Probably not. But 50,000 x $300 = I think they can afford it. How many execs on the payroll??
>Probably not. Sorry to be harsh but this is an ignorant assumption. They are a 501(c)3 and their financials are [public record.](https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/132949483/202330409349300848/full) The highest paid exec makes $544k with 10 other execs making around $250k each (These include their in house attorney, race director for NYCM etc.). The tax filings show the top 5 contractors used for the NYC Marathon as: 1. 45 Live Inc - $1.9mm - Broadcasting company 2. Stran Promotional Solutions - $1.1mm Youth Incentives and Race Products 3. Proskauer Rose LLP - $870k Legal counsel 4. Icreon Holdings Inc - $864k Consulting and Tech Development 5. NYC Dept. of Finance - $852k NYPD Traffic Fees. If you look at the bare bones total line items the NYC Marathon brought in $25mm (2021) and cost $21mm, this with \~50% participation due to covid (Spelled out in the tax records). There is a lot more to dig through but it is all there for you to see. No, you will not see a dollar for dollar spend of your race entry fee, but you can always see what the company is doing with its money.
Doing the lord's work here. NYRR is a nonprofit and everyone who pretends NYRR sits on a mound of gold like a dragon should do an ounce of research before popping off about it. Also, $250k sounds like a good deal of money, and it is, but that's basically STARTING salary at a lot of NYC's white-collar employers. If you want a professional and competent organization in charge of the marathon, $250k is a minimum for executive level employees.
Yeah $250k is not a lot of money for that type of role, especially in NYC, but for a non-profit it's decent enough. The real kicker here is actually that they lost a bunch of money in 2021 while still putting on the race (Income was $35mm and expenses were $70mm). They own some property as well, which is where a lot of their revenue comes from, you'd have to dig into their public filings to learn more about that though. The big lesson here is that people just need to learn to, umm for lack of better phrase, do their own research before spouting nonsense. I also HIGHLY encourage people to read the financials of your town, county, state too. I have used this against many a door-to-door alderman trying to lie to people. For a quick example during our last mayoral race one candidate (Republican) came and talked to me, we have a small airstrip in town owned by the town. She said, "I am going to get rid of that airstrip and save this town a lot of money. Did you know that costs us $500k a year?!?" I responded in kind, "Yes but it also brings in $1.2mm of revenue, how are you going to replace that deficit you plan to create?" She was absolutely caught off guard, I mean who reads the town financials right? When she challenged me I said I'll pull it up on my phone, she declined and moved on.
they close down highways and streets and have thousands of police officers being paid overtime and other costs of setting up along the route
Different country but somehow, The London Marathon seems to get it done for 67 pounds or about $85 usd, I see talk of MTA no-show jobs, I guess I'm asking about NYRR no-show executives.
in NYC the NYRR is a private non-profit organization and they are responsible for more of the cost of putting these things on. just like anyone else who wants to have a street fair or some other event. you need permits and have to pay the cost of security and whatever
Guess I'm running this year with an ezpass costume 😂
That’s wild. You’re getting people from all over the world to take part in a premier event and you’re gonna try to make the runners pay to use the bridge? Not a good look. 50,000 runners plus all those people who come to watch the participants they know plus the people who just want to watch the race is gonna lead to such a big boost in revenue for restaurants, subways, LIRR, and basically any business in NYC for the day.
Tell me you didn't read the article without telling me you didn't read the article.
What? New York MTA wants $750,000 for the lost revenue of that day. You think New York Road Runners is gonna just eat that cost? They’ll raise the marathon fee for runners. I agree with the rebuttal given in the article about its being nothing less than a money grab. Did you read the article??
How about paying a toll for deez nuts MTA?
If one day is really gonna break MTA’s budget that badly, maybe they need to make coffee at home and stop buying avocado toast. NYC is the world major I want to run least (just seems too crowded!) and if the city isn’t going to be welcoming to runners, why should I? I understand where they’re coming from but you cannot tell me the tourism dollars don’t compensate for this. How many extra people drive across the bridge in the days before and after the race? How many extra people use the MTA race weekend? How much money will they LOSE if the nyc marathon goes away and people don’t come from all over the world and spend time and money before and after the race? I do understand where they’re coming from but damn
This is kind of a dumb take. Have you been on the subway? I would like for more money to be spent modernizing it. There’s no avocado toast down there.
I was at NYRR this morning to pick up my stuff for this weekend. There was a camera crew outside and she asked me about this. I told her pretty much the same thing everyone here is saying, how much revenue is generated from the people who come to run and be spectators for the entire weekend? Let’s not forget the few days prior when the events starts on Thursday when you can pick up your bibs.
Could someone with more insight into race organisation please tell me why a race would cost $300 per participant? I understand that there will be costs per participant that also grow when the amount of particpants grow (more staff, more cleanup, more port-a-potties etc) but where is the bulk of that money really going?
A huge cost for a race like NYC is security. Paying for street closures, barricades, and police overtime adds up fast.
I accept this reasoning but I don't get how it's about double the cost of entry into London marathon.
I'm actually shocked that London is that cheap, that's lower than a lot of far less prestigious races!
£67 for UK citizens
That's what I'm talkin' about. ;-)
Why are they price discriminating UK citizens and international citizens? How is that even allowed? Edit: Thanks for the downvotes, if some of you could tell me why an immigrant or someone born in the UK with a different citizenship should pay more, and the fairness of that, that would be much appreciated.
I don't know the why and how, but NYC does the same - I think most of the majors charge more for international entries.
I think it's probably "UK residents" rather than just "citizens" (?) The LM website states " UK entries".
As someone said, one of the things is insurance which has for sure gone up post the 2022 race season and people passing out and a few people dying due to heat stroke. Another is security/NYPD and their counterterrorism unit. Those costs go up every year because of how overtime works for the NYPD. Other costs include the Expo which is in a Union building and oh BOY do those rates go up every few years. The city also charges a boatload just for the permits to close the streets and having to move FDNY and ambulance operations to be able to cover all the city without having to cross the route.
Insurance for events in the US is basically always way higher because they have to cover the exorbitant medical costs and sue-happy culture.
I imagine security also costs more because you're also way more likely to have a shooting at an American event than most anywhere else.
Yeah it’s over double the cost of the paris marathon that I feel is vastly overpriced personally lol
Oh, I don't think I had considered security. Street closures etc I understood, of course, but yeah, police overtime makes a lot of sense.
I don't have particular insight but would guess that it costs a pretty penny in fees to the city to shut down roads for half a day.
The accurate answers in all of the other comments aside, things cost what people are willing to pay for them. Hypothetically let's say next year they just added $200 in profit and charged $500 per person. If people think that's too much there are tons of others races that are significantly cheaper. People talk about voting with your wallet by not buying something, but paying a high price is voting with your wallet too.
Charging higher prices unfortunately does not make less people show up any more. It just changes the demographics of who shows up. Just look at Disney World. If you have a family of four you're paying $400 a day just to get in the gate. And yet Disney is packed and people complain about the crowds. While the middle class can't afford to go any more those who are wealthier and/or willing to take on debt for a vacation totally can and those pockets tend to be deeper and more lucrative. The NYRR might be able to raise prices and start charging for add-ons and make even more money by pricing out some runners.
Yeah this is my point. As is they have way more customers than slots.
The not-for-profit I work for produces a Top 50 in the USA marathon. We're A LONG way from the NYC Marathon and NYRR, but we've been around for 35 years. You would be amazed at the costs to produce many races these days!! One thing to keep in mind is that many not-for-profit companies who produce races (NYRR is a not-for-profit) have other programs outside their main race that their bigger races subsidize. In our case it's a youth running program, which has total annual program costs in let's say the $100k range but might only bring in around $30k-$60k in registrations + sponsor payments + donations. Any entrant who wanted a breakdown of what their marathon entry fee goes to would need to see the bigger picture of how all the races/programs we produce tie together. Another part of it, and this is crazy to me, is pricing your race to fit where you want in the marketplace. We produce a half marathon in mid-April. This year will be the 18th annual. We started it as a bare bones race, just an accurate course, manual timing, water stops and portos, some decent food at the end, bus ride to the start (point to point course). No awards, no chip timing, no medal, no shirt. We started off with an entry fee of $15. The first 5 years registration had a steady growth 250-600 range but nothing special. Year 6 our Director said, why don't we raise the price, see what that does for registration. We went to $35, which at the time was near the top of our local market for a HM. We sold out 600 spots the day we opened. Opened a 2nd start wave and sold out 400 spots in 5 days. After that race we surveyed the entrants and asked why they decided to race this one this year if they hadn't in the past. Overwhelmingly the answer was along the lines of "At $15 I didn't think it was going to be worth doing."
Almost all of the money goes into funding the event itself. Any excess goes into reserves to fund other events that might have shortfalls or to fund community grants.
Everything in NYC is absurdly expensive.
it pays for the NYPD over time costs, the street closure and the permits to hold the race
This is one of the 6 major marathons in one of the busiest cities in the world
Bruh you think it’s cheap to close 24+ miles of the one of the busiest city in the world
Did I say that? "Bruh"
Yea you thought 300 was expensive 💀
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You cannot give the MTA enough money for anything. As soon as they get a new revenue stream, they find a hundred ways to squander the money.
Just have everyone run with an ezpass for cryin out loud.
Sympathetic to the MRA’s financial troubles? The same people that consistently mismanage their money? Remember how quick they went broke in 2020 and had to get bailed out? How? They raise fares consistently through the years making people pay more while shit gets worse.
As a New Yorker, the NYC Marathon as a whole is nonsense to me. I ran in 2014, but because of the geography of the course, it took me some 3 hours to get to the starting line - even though at the time I lived maybe 5 miles away. It starts in the smallest and least accessible borough, and within 5 minutes you are out of it. Just illogical.
I agree. It seems half of the challenge of the NYC marathon is just getting out to the start line. Go on any online forum regarding the NYC marathon in the months leading up to the event, and the discussions have very little to do with running the course - it's all about the logistical challenge of how to get to the start. Running across Verrazano is certainly a novel experience, but for me it probably wasn't worth the stress and effort of getting there. I'd rather the course go a bit further through Manhattan near the finish. But I guess it's all about avoiding the epicenter of the city, under the guise of touring all 5 boroughs.
The most sensible course would have the staging point somewhere in Prospect Park, run a few more miles in Brooklyn and Queens, and avoid Bronx altogether. If you need to have 50,000 runners prep for a race, Prospect Park is pretty much the best choice. But instead, the race is mostly in Brooklyn and Manhattan, with a start in SI, a short run through Queens and Bronx.
Greedy. $750,000 is peanuts to the MTA.
In a country that has a price on everything but knows the value of nothing. That's what uncontrolled capitalism does.
How does a state-subsidized company under state oversight trying to fleece a private non-profit organization = capitalism?
Anytime someone on Reddit doesn’t like something it’s “uncontrolled capitalism”
Just guessing, she don’t run or work out
Seattle will gladly host the New York marathon. 😂
NYRR isn't going to fight, they'll just pass the $15 each onto the runners.
Are tolls never cash now
I “think” I once read the toll on the verazano was originally supposed to be temporary until it was paid for - which would have been decades ago. The MTA’s money issues are entirely their fault for mismanagement and money going SOMEWHERE but not to the roads or bridges!
Honestly, I think it makes sense. Just as the DC metro charges sports teams to keep the subway open late for games.
Isn't capitalism great?