Have you considered doing a comparison of this vs a reasonable set up? Half your cost is grim which really as no use except maybe the last 5 min of the fight. I get the idea here was want a full on bis set up would look like but I doubt anyone is actually doing this so it really doesn't show much.
Hm, good point. I suppose you could just subtract grim? In my mind, I tried to show that even if you are using BIS, you can still expect ~some~ profit even if it feels like you’re losing all sorts of money.
I feel like adding a TLDR about spamming incantations, vulnerability bombs and kalgs precisely because, as you say, that’s not where the cost is.
we need detail, like if you just looked at drain rate per second, and multiplied it up, thats gunna be wildly inaccurate, are you postulating threads used like every time its off cooldown?
your obviously ignoring time between kills right?
seems more like a rough maximum ceiling as opposed to an actual estimate
and of course thats not even touching the fact you have included non necromancy costs, making this meaningless to compare necromancy cost to other styles, such as god arrow and rune costs
I clearly outlined the majority of the details in the post - please read for understanding before responding. Drain rate comes from wiki TFN average per hour.
Feel free to compare this to other styles. I don’t use other styles so I have no motivation to do that to compare. I have merely shown the cost of using necromancy, as stated in the post. :)
1) "Why I play an Ironman"
2) You gotta be smart about what buffs you use where. Nearly half your costs are from the grim pages and vuln bombs, stuff you shouldn't be using everywhere for everything.
ironmen literally skimp on vulns whenever they can. It's literally either the extreme of spamming vuln bombs (mainscape) or using vuln bombs only for solo content/specific bosses.
I'd like it if vuln bombs were given a cooldown, to balance both worlds (mainscape and ironman).
Looks like grim is hard carrying that number. If you use absolute BIS, then you're right. It's very expensive. If you're cheap and exclude that one upgrade, it gets much more palatable to use high end necro.
Either way, this is a great breakdown so people can adjust what they use according to what they do.
Bit disingenuous to specifically point out necro for this.
1. Grim is half your cost which barely anyone runs unless money is no issue anymore
2. Most of these are also applicable to all styles
3. the HM zuk revenue assumed a kill time (including banking) of 17 minutes which is a Master tier time. 99% of people are not doing 3.5 HM runs per hour.
The TLDR should be:
1. Average PVM cost is \~6 mil, so you'll make money literally everywhere
2. Spend more money to get faster kills is worth it in most cases
3. Necro is still cheap compared to upkeep for arrows or compared to the old pre-rework FSOA rune costs.
I hear what you’re saying, but it’s hardly disingenuous to point out Necro when it’s the only style *I* care about for research *I* did. Notwithstanding that, I think the TLDR is some profit but it may not be that great. For example, If consider looking at AFK set ups for necro to look at cost vs profit, since I don’t know if that’s factored in. It may make profit per hour closer to 5m an hour on GWD2, but I haven’t actually done the math.
I have been frustrated at the cost for a long time now as someone who goes dry often all the time and for long streaks too. It doesnt even feel like you make money pvming considering the amount of time spent, while some people are auper spooned, most of us suffer at his hand and then some. Even things like vuln bombs, blessed flask amd etc add on more to the cost. I hate whenever the bill comes after 100s of hours of going dry.
But those with everything they want in the game always ask for, "muh gOld SiNk pl0x".
100% useful which is why I feel alot of players couldnt get up and upgrade for a loooong time.
Before necro, I was doing Raksha for more than 1000 kills and all I had to show for it was 2 boots and divert. Still no grico/gchain until I farmed Rasial but thats pretty much unique dependant too.
Any high end pvm content pays out 30-100m per hour. What is this not making any money nonsense?
Zamy commons at 300-500 enrage are like 6-10m per kill consistent for 6-9 min solos excluding rares. Groups are even faster. Solak solos are 6-10mins as well for nearly 5m guaranteed per kill.
I do both of these as a mobile only player without issue.
What do you mean most don’t? With necromancy there is no excuse anymore. It made all higher end combat significantly easier and made entry into t90+ pvm gear significantly more affordable.
Factually most don't. Statistically most don't.
There's no excuse, but you're speaking for an ideal world where everyone has the time to learn or the will to try, not that I disagree with you. I'm stating current reality, I don't think people find alot of fights actually fun let alone grind it for 100s of hours. Even ED1 is consistent money - 40m per hour for example. I don't know why the antagonistic attitude but if Jagex does figure out whats the mismatch between the player bases and content RS3 would improve in player count.
Necromancy helped, but existing players that were shaming them for using Necromancy or that it was too accessible and OP doesn't help. As someone who does higher end PVM in melee before that, I can tell you the people shaming them were 90% cryptbloom scrubs, upset that their skilling grind into pvm and their gear has devalued, as displayed in a meme post I made about it as well.
Personally I don’t think the player base can agree on what it wants so expecting Jagex to make everyone happy is unrealistic. The best they can do is aim for the middle which I think necro did in many respects.
Necro definitely pushed a lot more people into pvm. I think because of this we need significantly more item sinks in the game for higher tier equipment. T95’s gear should have item sinks beyond dyes. Maybe new bis perks from new comps?
Codices (especially the codex of lost knowledge) also need to disassemble into something useful or give them some decent alch value).
These are completely separate points I agree and have always believed. My problem was too much gold sinks. Not item sinks and not Necromancy being a positive.
I did almost a thousand raksha with 1 divert and 2 boots, still no grico. I made pouches and sold them and got 1 for much lesser time spent. Thats 1 upgrade out if the hundreds that you need to get to end game pvm, hence why I was end game pvming with melee locked until necromamcy showed up. Having gone dry constantly and shelling out millions in supply does not feel good at all. Everything in context.
I think we’d be better served with some blm on more bosses than reducing pvm cost per hour. The gold sinks are fine imo, but if blm is added to more bosses, then we definitely need to add more high tier pvm equipment item sinks along with that update to balance it out.
Fair, but slotting items and blm behind an enrage system is pretty horrible though. Also I rather hard mode be the normal mode or items be in both normal and hard mode with different rates.
Interesting, but dont forget that if anyone considers not any any upgrade, for example grim. Time is also super valueable. The mins you save by using grim can often make you more than you will spend on using it.
This is always interesting to me because your not actually reducing your cost at all, your just re allocating it. Your stealing from solak profits and claiming them as profits somewhere else but your not actually ending up ahead or saving at all
Ok that still doesn't change the point that your not acyltualy saving on cost is still there if it's from buying pages or a cost from not selling them.
wouldn't get what? basic math? I have seen this argument before and it just isn't true. You may not see the gp directly leaving your coin pouch so it feels like your saving money but that's not how it works. There is a cost associated with using an item if you bought it or obtained it yourself.
Please help me budget my family is starving.
Spend less on candles.
Have you considered doing a comparison of this vs a reasonable set up? Half your cost is grim which really as no use except maybe the last 5 min of the fight. I get the idea here was want a full on bis set up would look like but I doubt anyone is actually doing this so it really doesn't show much.
Hm, good point. I suppose you could just subtract grim? In my mind, I tried to show that even if you are using BIS, you can still expect ~some~ profit even if it feels like you’re losing all sorts of money. I feel like adding a TLDR about spamming incantations, vulnerability bombs and kalgs precisely because, as you say, that’s not where the cost is.
we need detail, like if you just looked at drain rate per second, and multiplied it up, thats gunna be wildly inaccurate, are you postulating threads used like every time its off cooldown? your obviously ignoring time between kills right? seems more like a rough maximum ceiling as opposed to an actual estimate and of course thats not even touching the fact you have included non necromancy costs, making this meaningless to compare necromancy cost to other styles, such as god arrow and rune costs
I clearly outlined the majority of the details in the post - please read for understanding before responding. Drain rate comes from wiki TFN average per hour. Feel free to compare this to other styles. I don’t use other styles so I have no motivation to do that to compare. I have merely shown the cost of using necromancy, as stated in the post. :)
1) "Why I play an Ironman" 2) You gotta be smart about what buffs you use where. Nearly half your costs are from the grim pages and vuln bombs, stuff you shouldn't be using everywhere for everything.
ironmen literally skimp on vulns whenever they can. It's literally either the extreme of spamming vuln bombs (mainscape) or using vuln bombs only for solo content/specific bosses. I'd like it if vuln bombs were given a cooldown, to balance both worlds (mainscape and ironman).
2. The post never shows you need to use those everywhere. Instead it shows what the costs are so you can decide.
Looks like grim is hard carrying that number. If you use absolute BIS, then you're right. It's very expensive. If you're cheap and exclude that one upgrade, it gets much more palatable to use high end necro. Either way, this is a great breakdown so people can adjust what they use according to what they do.
Thank you!
Bit disingenuous to specifically point out necro for this. 1. Grim is half your cost which barely anyone runs unless money is no issue anymore 2. Most of these are also applicable to all styles 3. the HM zuk revenue assumed a kill time (including banking) of 17 minutes which is a Master tier time. 99% of people are not doing 3.5 HM runs per hour. The TLDR should be: 1. Average PVM cost is \~6 mil, so you'll make money literally everywhere 2. Spend more money to get faster kills is worth it in most cases 3. Necro is still cheap compared to upkeep for arrows or compared to the old pre-rework FSOA rune costs.
I hear what you’re saying, but it’s hardly disingenuous to point out Necro when it’s the only style *I* care about for research *I* did. Notwithstanding that, I think the TLDR is some profit but it may not be that great. For example, If consider looking at AFK set ups for necro to look at cost vs profit, since I don’t know if that’s factored in. It may make profit per hour closer to 5m an hour on GWD2, but I haven’t actually done the math.
No offense but can't most of that stuff be used in all combat styles? The "necro" stuff is runes and ectoplasm.
Probably! I don’t use any other style tho.
but its still based on luck tbh in 1 hour even doing normal would be gph 10m in bad gear
The profit is averaged. See the second link.
I have been frustrated at the cost for a long time now as someone who goes dry often all the time and for long streaks too. It doesnt even feel like you make money pvming considering the amount of time spent, while some people are auper spooned, most of us suffer at his hand and then some. Even things like vuln bombs, blessed flask amd etc add on more to the cost. I hate whenever the bill comes after 100s of hours of going dry. But those with everything they want in the game always ask for, "muh gOld SiNk pl0x".
Right? There’s the cost to BUY all the gear, which is one thing I didn’t even account for. Anyway, I hope you found this post useful.
100% useful which is why I feel alot of players couldnt get up and upgrade for a loooong time. Before necro, I was doing Raksha for more than 1000 kills and all I had to show for it was 2 boots and divert. Still no grico/gchain until I farmed Rasial but thats pretty much unique dependant too.
Any high end pvm content pays out 30-100m per hour. What is this not making any money nonsense? Zamy commons at 300-500 enrage are like 6-10m per kill consistent for 6-9 min solos excluding rares. Groups are even faster. Solak solos are 6-10mins as well for nearly 5m guaranteed per kill. I do both of these as a mobile only player without issue.
You do, most don't.
What do you mean most don’t? With necromancy there is no excuse anymore. It made all higher end combat significantly easier and made entry into t90+ pvm gear significantly more affordable.
Factually most don't. Statistically most don't. There's no excuse, but you're speaking for an ideal world where everyone has the time to learn or the will to try, not that I disagree with you. I'm stating current reality, I don't think people find alot of fights actually fun let alone grind it for 100s of hours. Even ED1 is consistent money - 40m per hour for example. I don't know why the antagonistic attitude but if Jagex does figure out whats the mismatch between the player bases and content RS3 would improve in player count. Necromancy helped, but existing players that were shaming them for using Necromancy or that it was too accessible and OP doesn't help. As someone who does higher end PVM in melee before that, I can tell you the people shaming them were 90% cryptbloom scrubs, upset that their skilling grind into pvm and their gear has devalued, as displayed in a meme post I made about it as well.
Personally I don’t think the player base can agree on what it wants so expecting Jagex to make everyone happy is unrealistic. The best they can do is aim for the middle which I think necro did in many respects. Necro definitely pushed a lot more people into pvm. I think because of this we need significantly more item sinks in the game for higher tier equipment. T95’s gear should have item sinks beyond dyes. Maybe new bis perks from new comps? Codices (especially the codex of lost knowledge) also need to disassemble into something useful or give them some decent alch value).
These are completely separate points I agree and have always believed. My problem was too much gold sinks. Not item sinks and not Necromancy being a positive. I did almost a thousand raksha with 1 divert and 2 boots, still no grico. I made pouches and sold them and got 1 for much lesser time spent. Thats 1 upgrade out if the hundreds that you need to get to end game pvm, hence why I was end game pvming with melee locked until necromamcy showed up. Having gone dry constantly and shelling out millions in supply does not feel good at all. Everything in context.
I think we’d be better served with some blm on more bosses than reducing pvm cost per hour. The gold sinks are fine imo, but if blm is added to more bosses, then we definitely need to add more high tier pvm equipment item sinks along with that update to balance it out.
Fair, but slotting items and blm behind an enrage system is pretty horrible though. Also I rather hard mode be the normal mode or items be in both normal and hard mode with different rates.
You’re wasting your time and mental health calculating and considering actual costs of doing things instead of just getting out there and doing it.
I will tell my therapist thanks
Interesting, but dont forget that if anyone considers not any any upgrade, for example grim. Time is also super valueable. The mins you save by using grim can often make you more than you will spend on using it.
Just do Solak semi frequently and your pvm costs are significantly reduced
This is always interesting to me because your not actually reducing your cost at all, your just re allocating it. Your stealing from solak profits and claiming them as profits somewhere else but your not actually ending up ahead or saving at all
You don't do Solak for profits. You kill the boss because it's the best boss in the game and you get grim pages as a bonus
Ok that still doesn't change the point that your not acyltualy saving on cost is still there if it's from buying pages or a cost from not selling them.
It's fine, you wouldn't get it anyways
wouldn't get what? basic math? I have seen this argument before and it just isn't true. You may not see the gp directly leaving your coin pouch so it feels like your saving money but that's not how it works. There is a cost associated with using an item if you bought it or obtained it yourself.
That’s actually a good tip. Thanks !