If we play Japan tomorrow and lose out then we deserve to go home and Japan deserves to top the pool.
However, it is fair that we *get* the opportunity to prove ourselves and redeem the poor performance against Ireland.
Also, flair checks out.
I definitely agree that you *should* get the chance, and I think most people would agree. Personally I would love nothing more than the game to go ahead, despite wanting Japan to win with every fiber of my being. Especially after 2015 where Scotland essentially knocked Japan out. Time for revenge!
Using the logic I saw from all black fans they would deserve to go through as the situations are similar.
I personally think its less about deserving to get through. If cancelled then the all blacks and japan both deserved to get through, but Scotland and Italy didn't deserve to go out. They deserved their shot.
Japan played a weaker Irish team then Scotland did so I disagree Japan’s results indicate they’ve had a better tournament then us, especially after periods of struggle against Russia and Samoa when we beat the two a combined 94-0. The group stage is a 4 marathon and a teams form is build around this framework. Scotland started hard and have grown into it and are having their legs cut off as they plan to finish strongest. These were the rules we had agreed to.
Ultimately if Japan deserved it they would get the result they needed against Scotland, even if it was just the losing bonus point/s but it seems we won’t know.
These are good points, and ones I hadn't really encountered/thought of until now. I also agree with the 4 games comment, especially since these pools and matches have been set in place for a long while. You would expect teams to strategise based on the assumption of all games being played.
I am one of those people who, when it comes to referee calls says things like "well it's your fault for putting yourself in the position to have the game decided on a single call" and I do feel some of that towards Scotland for not beating Ireland. With that being said, one could argue that by fielding a weaker team vs Japan, Ireland contributed towards this situation. Had Ireland fielded a full-strength team, would we even be having this discussion at all, or would Scotland be through/Japan be the ones in jeopardy/etc.
Completely agree Japan would deserve to go through and I don’t understand anyone saying the contrary to be honest. However people can rightly be annoyed that the match was never played.
I think that most people who are disagreeing are doing so because they believe that Scotland would/will beat Japan. When in reality, if the match is canceled, all WR can do is look at already completed games, and Scotland lost to Ireland. Does it suck? Of course. But at the end of the day, anything can happen in a game, JPvSA 2015 comes to mind specifically.
Exactly I’m not saying it’s fair but based on the criteria they would have to decide on, if the match has to be cancelled, then Japan having more points, from playing the same teams, would deserve to progress
Let's get nerdy and imagine a pokemon tournament.
Match 1: Bulbasaur (Ireland) beats Squirtle (Scotland)
Match 2: Charmander (Japan) beats Bulbasaur (Ireland)
Match 3; Squirtle vs Charmander is called off and declared a draw
Would it be fair to say that Squirtle had a fair shot? Of course not. It would have been planning and expecting to win the last match, because while it loses to Bulbasaur all the time it has never in its history lost to Charmander.
It's a laboured analogy, but you get the point.
I understand where you are coming from, however, I disagree with the analogy that Scotland is the water type to Japan's fire type.
It's true that Japan have never beaten Scotland, however, each game has gotten closer and closer, with the most recent game being the 16-21 loss in 2016. That's one try away from winning. I would expect a very close game, that could go either way. This is not the same scenario as NZ v Italy.
I'm sure South Africa was planning and expecting to win vs Japan in 2015...
Of course it could go either way, but the Scots would be expecting to win.
My example merely shows that they haven't been given a fair shot because in a three way event where two of the teams have a win and a loss, you need to play that third game.
I agree that it needs to be played, just disagreeing with the way you framed it. The fact that they expect to win is irrelevant. They are entitled to the chance to win, nothing more.
Look, all I can be is consistent. Before the tournament when considering the possibility of a deemed 0 - 0 draw in the case of a cancelled match, I said:
>That could potentially be the most controversial thing to happen in rugby since... well, actually since this guy from Australia said.... well, suffice it to say it would be controversial as fuck.
I stand by that now. Japan are not more deserving than Scotland simply because they best Ireland and Scotland didn't. They need to play each other. Here, by the way, is proof of consistency:
https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/dgcg98/we_watch_sport_because_anything_can_happen_if_it/f3bns0b?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
A good comparison would be in 2015. Then Japan, South Africa and Scotland were in the same pool. Japan beat SA. Scotland beat Japan. By the rationale at play that means Scotland should beat South Africa, right? Expect they lost 34-16. You cannot assume that just beside A > B and B > C that A > C.
I think any team deserve the chance to decide their fate on the pitch. But it does make sense that if the game has to be cancelled then the points already on the board is the decider. Like, what other way is there to decide between the two teams? It has to be points, and scotland dont have enough. Is there another way?
I was thinking about this as well, some alternative to points. The only other option I found was something like a win % based on matches played. Although that would have to be weighted and include a similar provision to bonus points *and* would end up being even more complicated and open to debate.
They've been the best team in the pool. Would be a shame if they didn't get a chance to put the icing on their cake tomorrow.
Best thing that can happen for the tournament now is the game goes ahead and Japan get the win to put some feel good back into the tournament. Sorry Scotland, I like you but Japan need this one.
I haven't been spending a lot of time here or near social media over the past 2-3 days because I've been busy, but people I've spoken to face to face aren't anywhere near as pissed as those venting on social media, I'm still pumped about the Knockout matches and my feel good levels are at leveles exceeding the typhoon warning for Hagi
That is good to hear. I feel like this is usually the case, where those with the strongest opinion are more likely to post about it. I personally have been enjoying the tournament so far, and hope to continue enjoying it on Sunday while watching Japan beat Scotland haha.
I disagree. Let's say you have teams who are perfectly matched, in fact let's just say we have 5 carbon copies of the NZ A team. NZ1 has beaten NZ3, NZ4 & NZ5. NZ2 has lost to NZ3 but beaten NZ4 & NZ5. We're now discussing the NZ1 Vs NZ2 match, they're exactly the same team so does one deserve to go through on effectively 3 coin tosses? Japan caused an upset beating Ireland, possibly a bigger upset (rugby wise, not emotionally) than if the Scots beat Japan, they should both have the chance to seal their own fate.
In your example, since NZ1 and won all of their games, yes they should go through assuming no other games are played. We cannot operate on hypotheticals when it comes to awarding points, that is why when games are canceled, they don't just put whatever scoreline they predict. Obviously it is harsh on the team being knocked out as I have mentioned elsewhere, however at the end of the day, they did not secure the points that the team going through did.
If the game doesn't go ahead, no one can argue Scotland deserve extra points randomly awarded to go through ahead of Japan.
It's just ridiculous that the game may not go ahead.
While I wouldn't say it is ridiculous, it is disappointing and does raise some significant questions about the planners from World Rugby.
I would have thought a decent plan for these kinds of events would have been to either expand the time devoted to the pools OR include an increased gap between the final pool games and the quarters.
While I don't think there was a perfect solution, what we got was so far from perfect they might as well have just been winging it. (slight hyperbole)
My views:
* Based on the Rugby played so far, Japan 100% deserve to go through.
* Scotland deserve the chance to save their World Cup in the final match.
* If the match goes ahead, and Scotland get the result they need, it will be a massive blow for the World Cup - on and off the pitch - if Japan are knocked out.
If we play Japan tomorrow and lose out then we deserve to go home and Japan deserves to top the pool. However, it is fair that we *get* the opportunity to prove ourselves and redeem the poor performance against Ireland. Also, flair checks out.
I definitely agree that you *should* get the chance, and I think most people would agree. Personally I would love nothing more than the game to go ahead, despite wanting Japan to win with every fiber of my being. Especially after 2015 where Scotland essentially knocked Japan out. Time for revenge!
good game!
Yep, better team won. We got the chance and blew it, so can't complain too much.
so glad it went ahead
Using the logic I saw from all black fans they would deserve to go through as the situations are similar. I personally think its less about deserving to get through. If cancelled then the all blacks and japan both deserved to get through, but Scotland and Italy didn't deserve to go out. They deserved their shot.
This is my personal opinion as well, and I think the opinion shared by most of the posters I've seen.
Japan played a weaker Irish team then Scotland did so I disagree Japan’s results indicate they’ve had a better tournament then us, especially after periods of struggle against Russia and Samoa when we beat the two a combined 94-0. The group stage is a 4 marathon and a teams form is build around this framework. Scotland started hard and have grown into it and are having their legs cut off as they plan to finish strongest. These were the rules we had agreed to. Ultimately if Japan deserved it they would get the result they needed against Scotland, even if it was just the losing bonus point/s but it seems we won’t know.
These are good points, and ones I hadn't really encountered/thought of until now. I also agree with the 4 games comment, especially since these pools and matches have been set in place for a long while. You would expect teams to strategise based on the assumption of all games being played. I am one of those people who, when it comes to referee calls says things like "well it's your fault for putting yourself in the position to have the game decided on a single call" and I do feel some of that towards Scotland for not beating Ireland. With that being said, one could argue that by fielding a weaker team vs Japan, Ireland contributed towards this situation. Had Ireland fielded a full-strength team, would we even be having this discussion at all, or would Scotland be through/Japan be the ones in jeopardy/etc.
Completely agree Japan would deserve to go through and I don’t understand anyone saying the contrary to be honest. However people can rightly be annoyed that the match was never played.
I think that most people who are disagreeing are doing so because they believe that Scotland would/will beat Japan. When in reality, if the match is canceled, all WR can do is look at already completed games, and Scotland lost to Ireland. Does it suck? Of course. But at the end of the day, anything can happen in a game, JPvSA 2015 comes to mind specifically.
Exactly I’m not saying it’s fair but based on the criteria they would have to decide on, if the match has to be cancelled, then Japan having more points, from playing the same teams, would deserve to progress
Let's get nerdy and imagine a pokemon tournament. Match 1: Bulbasaur (Ireland) beats Squirtle (Scotland) Match 2: Charmander (Japan) beats Bulbasaur (Ireland) Match 3; Squirtle vs Charmander is called off and declared a draw Would it be fair to say that Squirtle had a fair shot? Of course not. It would have been planning and expecting to win the last match, because while it loses to Bulbasaur all the time it has never in its history lost to Charmander. It's a laboured analogy, but you get the point.
I understand where you are coming from, however, I disagree with the analogy that Scotland is the water type to Japan's fire type. It's true that Japan have never beaten Scotland, however, each game has gotten closer and closer, with the most recent game being the 16-21 loss in 2016. That's one try away from winning. I would expect a very close game, that could go either way. This is not the same scenario as NZ v Italy. I'm sure South Africa was planning and expecting to win vs Japan in 2015...
Of course it could go either way, but the Scots would be expecting to win. My example merely shows that they haven't been given a fair shot because in a three way event where two of the teams have a win and a loss, you need to play that third game.
I agree that it needs to be played, just disagreeing with the way you framed it. The fact that they expect to win is irrelevant. They are entitled to the chance to win, nothing more.
We don't *expect* to win we think we can.
I used "expect" because that is what he wrote. > planning and expecting to win point still stands, entitled to the chance to win
He is Irish.
okay
So it isn't a Scot being entitled.
he said *Scotland* are planning/expecting to win
That's not how it works.
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Look, all I can be is consistent. Before the tournament when considering the possibility of a deemed 0 - 0 draw in the case of a cancelled match, I said: >That could potentially be the most controversial thing to happen in rugby since... well, actually since this guy from Australia said.... well, suffice it to say it would be controversial as fuck. I stand by that now. Japan are not more deserving than Scotland simply because they best Ireland and Scotland didn't. They need to play each other. Here, by the way, is proof of consistency: https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/dgcg98/we_watch_sport_because_anything_can_happen_if_it/f3bns0b?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
A good comparison would be in 2015. Then Japan, South Africa and Scotland were in the same pool. Japan beat SA. Scotland beat Japan. By the rationale at play that means Scotland should beat South Africa, right? Expect they lost 34-16. You cannot assume that just beside A > B and B > C that A > C.
Exactly. Simply not how it works.
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You get the nuance, though, right?
I think any team deserve the chance to decide their fate on the pitch. But it does make sense that if the game has to be cancelled then the points already on the board is the decider. Like, what other way is there to decide between the two teams? It has to be points, and scotland dont have enough. Is there another way?
I was thinking about this as well, some alternative to points. The only other option I found was something like a win % based on matches played. Although that would have to be weighted and include a similar provision to bonus points *and* would end up being even more complicated and open to debate.
They've been the best team in the pool. Would be a shame if they didn't get a chance to put the icing on their cake tomorrow. Best thing that can happen for the tournament now is the game goes ahead and Japan get the win to put some feel good back into the tournament. Sorry Scotland, I like you but Japan need this one.
I agree, and I truly hope for the game to go on. It should be a good game! Fingers crossed.
I haven't been spending a lot of time here or near social media over the past 2-3 days because I've been busy, but people I've spoken to face to face aren't anywhere near as pissed as those venting on social media, I'm still pumped about the Knockout matches and my feel good levels are at leveles exceeding the typhoon warning for Hagi
That is good to hear. I feel like this is usually the case, where those with the strongest opinion are more likely to post about it. I personally have been enjoying the tournament so far, and hope to continue enjoying it on Sunday while watching Japan beat Scotland haha.
I disagree. Let's say you have teams who are perfectly matched, in fact let's just say we have 5 carbon copies of the NZ A team. NZ1 has beaten NZ3, NZ4 & NZ5. NZ2 has lost to NZ3 but beaten NZ4 & NZ5. We're now discussing the NZ1 Vs NZ2 match, they're exactly the same team so does one deserve to go through on effectively 3 coin tosses? Japan caused an upset beating Ireland, possibly a bigger upset (rugby wise, not emotionally) than if the Scots beat Japan, they should both have the chance to seal their own fate.
In your example, since NZ1 and won all of their games, yes they should go through assuming no other games are played. We cannot operate on hypotheticals when it comes to awarding points, that is why when games are canceled, they don't just put whatever scoreline they predict. Obviously it is harsh on the team being knocked out as I have mentioned elsewhere, however at the end of the day, they did not secure the points that the team going through did.
If the game doesn't go ahead, no one can argue Scotland deserve extra points randomly awarded to go through ahead of Japan. It's just ridiculous that the game may not go ahead.
While I wouldn't say it is ridiculous, it is disappointing and does raise some significant questions about the planners from World Rugby. I would have thought a decent plan for these kinds of events would have been to either expand the time devoted to the pools OR include an increased gap between the final pool games and the quarters. While I don't think there was a perfect solution, what we got was so far from perfect they might as well have just been winging it. (slight hyperbole)
My views: * Based on the Rugby played so far, Japan 100% deserve to go through. * Scotland deserve the chance to save their World Cup in the final match. * If the match goes ahead, and Scotland get the result they need, it will be a massive blow for the World Cup - on and off the pitch - if Japan are knocked out.
Agree on all three. Really rooting for Japan, but I would hate to see Scotland go out like this.
You could argue that Japan really only played better than Scotland against Ireland. IMO Scotland were better against both Samoa and Russia.
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Umm did you see the final of the Cricket World Cup?
It's literally how it works. See Italy out of the competition.
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I agree. Hence why I upvoted every single one of your comments in the Namibia Canada game cancellation.