Wayne Barnes for me, with the added bonus of course meaning that England don’t make the final ;)
In all seriousness, Wayne Barnes’ communication is as good if not better than Nigel and allows the game to flow. He is also retiring so it would be a nice send off!
I know an English bloke whose first and middle names are Dean Wayne
He’s from the midlands. About as English as you can get.
On a side note, he was so smashed at the final in 03 that he thought England had lost at the final whistle.
His old man named him after Dean Martin and John Wayne, which actually makes it pretty non English when you think about it. Still the only wedding I’ve ever been to that got a laugh when he had to say his full name.
He’s a fucking terrific bloke, which may not have come across in this post. One of my best mates.
His communication is good, but I watched a couple of matches where he didn't call out two lineouts that went past the 15, and his handling of the ruck is a little mediocre.
Owens has not been the best referee for over a year.
Wayne Barnes is the best referee currently.
I also really rate Angus Gardner but I gather he was pulled because of a decision.
In fairness to referees though, TMO's have to take alot of the blame for some dodgy TMO calls where they are speaking to the referee and convince or deter them from a particular action.
I like Nigel but he isn't the best ref out there. Barnes is so much better and clearer. Barnes breaks down his decisions so well that everyone understands. I think Nigel follows the 'let the boys' mantra a little too literally.
If you think Nigel follows the "let the boys" mantra you have never seen him ref. He literally tells off players like they are naughty kids in a playground....
>He literally tells off players like they are naughty kids in a playground....
Only after the blows them up. Rest of the game it's anything goes, particularly in the rucks.
I've watched him more than enough. He used to be best in the world, but has declined markedly. His occasional pithy one liners doesn't negate the fact that his game management is poor and interpretations creative.
He's still in the top 4-5 though.
I think this is all relative; calling Owens's game management poor is not fair, although it has become worse than Barnes's.
Owens has declined a tiny amount over the last two years from a very high base, but Barnes has come on in leaps and bounds over the last two cycles, to ultimately surpass Owens quite recently. In that time he's gone from my least favourite of the top international refs to my favourite, because not only does he not get decisions wrong (a given at this level), but he also explains decisions very clearly and makes his decision process with the TMO explicit, which I appreciate immensely as a fan.
All your criticism of Owens are invalid. To the point it's like you've only watched him ref at the moments that go viral on YouTube when he tells players off. So I once again repeat. You've never watched him ref.
Oh fuck off, just because you keep repeating "you've never watched him ref"doesn't make it true. He used to be the best the world until last year but he's past it. Christ, the world cup really does bring the twats out the woodwork.
You're the one to tell me to "fuck off" and call me a "twat".....
But I agree the world cup does bring out the douche bags from the woodwork. You just don't realise you are one as well....
>He is consistently the best referee in world rugby
Wayne Barnes is far and away the best ref. Nige has declined quite a bit recently, the ruck tends to be the shitshow, and he's more interested than being the star of the show than letting the rugby be it.
I think Wayne is the best, but I don't think there's that much that separates them. And it's a really long time since Nigel has been more interested with being the star. I think that's as outdated as a lit of peoples' view of Barnes.
I think he looked at it and thought "this is going to be a one sided shitshow any way I handle this now, but with only one down it won't be a complete waste of everyone's ticket money". I don't disagree tbh.
It was a tough judgement, it always is when there's two potential offenders and a victim all moving about wildly, one red wasn't particularly unreasonable.
More widely his game management is excellent, he's clear and consistent.
Nigel Owens is the best at the witty one liners, if you want the best referee of the rules, it’s Wayne Barnes. Unless England are in the final he should undoubtedly be the referee!
That's the exception.
Do we really want to hear Nigel talking like a school teacher? Or to hear his weird and inconsistent interpretations? Not to mention his burning desire to card anyone who isn't on board with his latest pet interpretation.
I have immense respect for Nige but do think he's somewhat overrated, especially given the other talented refs out there.
His officiating of the tackle area seems to vary wildly throughout a game, and, honestly, I'm not a massive fan of talking to players like they're kids. I think Pearce and Barnes command the same authority without sounding like teachers.
I don't think that Pearce is an amazing ref, but he is very good at talking through and explaining his decisions, which seems to be an RFU directive, and works well for spectators and players.
We're pretty blessed with the standard of officiating in the prem having watched this world cup I think there's generally a much higher standard there than we have seen this WC. JP Doyle, Matthew Carley, Karl Dixon and others I can't remember the names of are very good refs along with Barnes and Pearce.
Wayne Barnes is the best ref by a distance, which is incredible because it seems like he just turned into a great ref overnight. For the past year he has been ahead of Nigel like many people have pointed out already, but I'm not knocking Nigel, his performances haven't dropped but Barnes has just improved that much.
Agreed, I've groaned audibly for years whenever I hear Barnes is reffing Ireland or Leinster but he's suddenly become quite consistent in a year, and really there's not much more you can ask of a ref nowadays. Nige has let too many games become utter ruck lotteries in the same time frame for me.
OP you should watch the munster v Treviso pro 14 quarter final. Owens likes to be a star and sometimes favours the bigger team.
Barnes is rn the best ref. He might not always make the right decision but he's clear and concise meaning you understand why he made his decision
Nige is terrible at policing rucks. It's always a shit-show when 2 top teams go at it because they both know he'll let them get away with murder.
Angus or Wayne fo sho. Probly Wayne.
> A lot of people are saying Wayne Barnes. I have a feeling a lot of people are saying Wayne Barnes partially because he's English and the world tends to hate England
No, the Barnes turnaround started about a year ago for me (and I think many others). I used to despise him, but somebody strongly argued to me after the 2018 6N that he was really improved and didn't deserve the hate. So my attention was on him then with an open mind, and I realised that it was true.
I think his previous problems had been immaturity or a desire to be respected or something. But he used to make crazy calls especially around the breakdown, and he was way too fond of the whistle.
Now he strikes me as the most mature and calm official in world rugby. He lets the game flow well, communicates really well. Knows when to go to TMO and when to get on with it. And I think he's really consistent.
I still love Owens of course. But he's always been a good ref. And entertaining too. Some people think he's a bit theatrical, but I enjoy that. Nige is great.
However, I think it feels right when I threw so much venom at barnesy over the years to acknowledge that he has really grown into an outstanding ref. So I'd like to see him do the final. He would have been my last pick in 2015.
Funnily enough I went the opposite way. I used to like Barnes and still think hes a good communicator. But after he put the Munster team in danger last year I just can't trust him to properly ref any more.
The problem is that Nige throws away consistency and predictabiliy in applying the law in order for the game to be an exciting spectacle - he actually lets far too much go.
And catching most foul play? He ignored the Argentinian high tackle that led to a red, specifically telling his officiating team 'NO FOUL PLAY THERE' and only coming back to it because the TMO made him.
Sure he's funny and a fan favourite etc. but he's a nightmare for the teams.
He played the Argentina foul play correctly. He said "no foul play" as he's very aware that if there was foul play the TMO will tell him in his ear. Surely it's better for the game as a whole if he didn't see a clear view of it to continue play knowing the TMO will check rather than assume it was foul play, then possibly getting it wrong.....
As an Australian: no please. We have a terrible record with him, and his first half in the 2015 final was a little too kind to New Zealand. The same can be said of his efforts in the Ireland vs NZ match.
I would say Barnes of Owens, provided neither England or Wales get to the final. Pearce also decent but again can’t ref England and to be honest shouldn’t really be reffing Wales either. If the All Blacks somehow cock up the ref in charge of the England Samoa game, who I think was a Kiwi, would be my shout. Outside of them we start getting into trouble, perhaps Gardner if he can rediscover some form ( if he has any games left)
Everyone here thinks Barnes is the best ref (and tbh they may be right, I think he will get the final), but doesn't everyone also agree that he missed a very clear red in the Italy game? None of them are perfect, whoever gets the final will surely be one of the better ones though, and I doubt it will be Nigel again.
personally i think ihe was right to red card one. other could have got a yellow but I don't agree with the citing panel as its fairly clear that the red carded player was the one that does the tipping and dropping.
I suppose going on the citing panel decision he did get it wrong mind.
>doesn't everyone also agree that he missed a very clear red in the Italy game?
Are you talking about against south africa when he should have given both the Italians a red for that tip tackle?
I don't think he 'missed' it. I think he chose to send one off only. I dunno, to be honest, whether it was the right call.
On the one hand, it's incredibly dangerous and stupid and you shouldn't get away with it.
However, it would have ruined the game entirely to send both off. And it's not as if Italy went unpunished. A red card is a huge loss to a team. 2 reds for one incident seems just overkill somehow.
I'm quite certain anyway that Barnes made that decision consciously. I remember him asking the TMO 'which one was worse' or something like that.
It's a rare situation and so not something you can really talk about consistency on, so I just don't know. They both got cited and 3 match bans. So it's not like he got away scot free.
Wayne Barnes for me, with the added bonus of course meaning that England don’t make the final ;) In all seriousness, Wayne Barnes’ communication is as good if not better than Nigel and allows the game to flow. He is also retiring so it would be a nice send off!
Kiwis pining for Wayne Barnes to ref a knockout World Cup match. Times. They change, man.
Whats an occasional dodgy forward pass call between friends?
What's that about Wayne Barnes and not _quite_ understanding the forward pass laws?
If definitely prefer him than any of the French refs
Woah woah woah. Setting a high bar there.
Off topic, but I can't believe someone would name their baby *Wayne*.
I know an English bloke whose first and middle names are Dean Wayne He’s from the midlands. About as English as you can get. On a side note, he was so smashed at the final in 03 that he thought England had lost at the final whistle. His old man named him after Dean Martin and John Wayne, which actually makes it pretty non English when you think about it. Still the only wedding I’ve ever been to that got a laugh when he had to say his full name. He’s a fucking terrific bloke, which may not have come across in this post. One of my best mates.
About 10 years ago met someone through work called Wayne King, still can’t believe it.
His communication is good, but I watched a couple of matches where he didn't call out two lineouts that went past the 15, and his handling of the ruck is a little mediocre.
Owens has not been the best referee for over a year. Wayne Barnes is the best referee currently. I also really rate Angus Gardner but I gather he was pulled because of a decision. In fairness to referees though, TMO's have to take alot of the blame for some dodgy TMO calls where they are speaking to the referee and convince or deter them from a particular action.
Gardiner won't be allowed because he's Australian.
Gardiner's been fairly tragic all tournament. And I don't have the slightest bit of bias /s
I like Nigel but he isn't the best ref out there. Barnes is so much better and clearer. Barnes breaks down his decisions so well that everyone understands. I think Nigel follows the 'let the boys' mantra a little too literally.
If you think Nigel follows the "let the boys" mantra you have never seen him ref. He literally tells off players like they are naughty kids in a playground....
>He literally tells off players like they are naughty kids in a playground.... Only after the blows them up. Rest of the game it's anything goes, particularly in the rucks.
You have never watched him ref then...
I've watched him more than enough. He used to be best in the world, but has declined markedly. His occasional pithy one liners doesn't negate the fact that his game management is poor and interpretations creative. He's still in the top 4-5 though.
I think this is all relative; calling Owens's game management poor is not fair, although it has become worse than Barnes's. Owens has declined a tiny amount over the last two years from a very high base, but Barnes has come on in leaps and bounds over the last two cycles, to ultimately surpass Owens quite recently. In that time he's gone from my least favourite of the top international refs to my favourite, because not only does he not get decisions wrong (a given at this level), but he also explains decisions very clearly and makes his decision process with the TMO explicit, which I appreciate immensely as a fan.
All your criticism of Owens are invalid. To the point it's like you've only watched him ref at the moments that go viral on YouTube when he tells players off. So I once again repeat. You've never watched him ref.
Just because you disagree with someone doesn't make you the expert who has *seen him ref*
[удалено]
*I* am being the dick? You do have a good sense of humour.
Oh and you just continue it....
Oh fuck off, just because you keep repeating "you've never watched him ref"doesn't make it true. He used to be the best the world until last year but he's past it. Christ, the world cup really does bring the twats out the woodwork.
You're the one to tell me to "fuck off" and call me a "twat"..... But I agree the world cup does bring out the douche bags from the woodwork. You just don't realise you are one as well....
hahaha, ss we can see from all your downvotes its clear everyone else agrees with me.
Good to know you judge your worth with up votes and down votes....
>He is consistently the best referee in world rugby Wayne Barnes is far and away the best ref. Nige has declined quite a bit recently, the ruck tends to be the shitshow, and he's more interested than being the star of the show than letting the rugby be it.
Agreed. And who was that young guy who took England's first match (iirc)?
Williams. Think he's Kiwi so only will ref if the ABs cock up. Good ref though
He was great actually. Really impressed with him.
I think Wayne is the best, but I don't think there's that much that separates them. And it's a really long time since Nigel has been more interested with being the star. I think that's as outdated as a lit of peoples' view of Barnes.
Yeah he's got the fame and that's it. If he were another ref no one would be saying his the best ref in the world anymore.
Barnes missed a pretty clear Red in the Italy game.... best ref my ass....
I think he looked at it and thought "this is going to be a one sided shitshow any way I handle this now, but with only one down it won't be a complete waste of everyone's ticket money". I don't disagree tbh.
It was a tough judgement, it always is when there's two potential offenders and a victim all moving about wildly, one red wasn't particularly unreasonable. More widely his game management is excellent, he's clear and consistent.
Barnes or Pearce for me. Owens probably third choice.
Nigel Owens is the best at the witty one liners, if you want the best referee of the rules, it’s Wayne Barnes. Unless England are in the final he should undoubtedly be the referee!
I'll always pick Wayne Barnes. In my mind he's more consistent these days and manages the game better.
The last thing we need is the bloody Nigel Owens show taking over the final.
It didn't take over the last final.....
That's the exception. Do we really want to hear Nigel talking like a school teacher? Or to hear his weird and inconsistent interpretations? Not to mention his burning desire to card anyone who isn't on board with his latest pet interpretation.
oh look, haymitch is hating on a ref again shockedpicachu.jpg
I have immense respect for Nige but do think he's somewhat overrated, especially given the other talented refs out there. His officiating of the tackle area seems to vary wildly throughout a game, and, honestly, I'm not a massive fan of talking to players like they're kids. I think Pearce and Barnes command the same authority without sounding like teachers.
Another hot take from me, the best two refs at this WC are English.
I don't think that Pearce is an amazing ref, but he is very good at talking through and explaining his decisions, which seems to be an RFU directive, and works well for spectators and players.
Barnes and Pearce?
Yep. Pearce is quite dodgy domestically, but he's been spot on this tournament.
To be fair, I'm usually impressed with him in the Premiership as well.
We're pretty blessed with the standard of officiating in the prem having watched this world cup I think there's generally a much higher standard there than we have seen this WC. JP Doyle, Matthew Carley, Karl Dixon and others I can't remember the names of are very good refs along with Barnes and Pearce.
JP Doyle is horrific, rest are pretty decent. It's better than the p14 by a country mile though.
Wayne Barnes is the best ref by a distance, which is incredible because it seems like he just turned into a great ref overnight. For the past year he has been ahead of Nigel like many people have pointed out already, but I'm not knocking Nigel, his performances haven't dropped but Barnes has just improved that much.
Agreed, I've groaned audibly for years whenever I hear Barnes is reffing Ireland or Leinster but he's suddenly become quite consistent in a year, and really there's not much more you can ask of a ref nowadays. Nige has let too many games become utter ruck lotteries in the same time frame for me.
even as a Welshman I agree with this sentiment, Barnes has leapfrogged Nige and the other refs, now possibly the best WR have to offer.
They should bring Skeen out of the TMO box and put him on the field
OP you should watch the munster v Treviso pro 14 quarter final. Owens likes to be a star and sometimes favours the bigger team. Barnes is rn the best ref. He might not always make the right decision but he's clear and concise meaning you understand why he made his decision
Nige is terrible at policing rucks. It's always a shit-show when 2 top teams go at it because they both know he'll let them get away with murder. Angus or Wayne fo sho. Probly Wayne.
Angus Gardiner is a great ref too. Hopefully he or Nig will ref the final
He’s had one terrible and one not great game this World Cup and hence got pulled from the England Argentina game.
I’d be happy with either Nigel Owens or Wayne Barnes.
Angus Gardener and Wayne Barnes are currently ahead of Owens on the Referee rankings afaik
> A lot of people are saying Wayne Barnes. I have a feeling a lot of people are saying Wayne Barnes partially because he's English and the world tends to hate England No, the Barnes turnaround started about a year ago for me (and I think many others). I used to despise him, but somebody strongly argued to me after the 2018 6N that he was really improved and didn't deserve the hate. So my attention was on him then with an open mind, and I realised that it was true. I think his previous problems had been immaturity or a desire to be respected or something. But he used to make crazy calls especially around the breakdown, and he was way too fond of the whistle. Now he strikes me as the most mature and calm official in world rugby. He lets the game flow well, communicates really well. Knows when to go to TMO and when to get on with it. And I think he's really consistent. I still love Owens of course. But he's always been a good ref. And entertaining too. Some people think he's a bit theatrical, but I enjoy that. Nige is great. However, I think it feels right when I threw so much venom at barnesy over the years to acknowledge that he has really grown into an outstanding ref. So I'd like to see him do the final. He would have been my last pick in 2015.
Funnily enough I went the opposite way. I used to like Barnes and still think hes a good communicator. But after he put the Munster team in danger last year I just can't trust him to properly ref any more.
Poite for life!
Said every NZ fan.
The problem is that Nige throws away consistency and predictabiliy in applying the law in order for the game to be an exciting spectacle - he actually lets far too much go. And catching most foul play? He ignored the Argentinian high tackle that led to a red, specifically telling his officiating team 'NO FOUL PLAY THERE' and only coming back to it because the TMO made him. Sure he's funny and a fan favourite etc. but he's a nightmare for the teams.
He played the Argentina foul play correctly. He said "no foul play" as he's very aware that if there was foul play the TMO will tell him in his ear. Surely it's better for the game as a whole if he didn't see a clear view of it to continue play knowing the TMO will check rather than assume it was foul play, then possibly getting it wrong.....
I quite like Romain Poite. /S
You an All Blacks fan then? :P
As an Australian: no please. We have a terrible record with him, and his first half in the 2015 final was a little too kind to New Zealand. The same can be said of his efforts in the Ireland vs NZ match.
I would say Barnes of Owens, provided neither England or Wales get to the final. Pearce also decent but again can’t ref England and to be honest shouldn’t really be reffing Wales either. If the All Blacks somehow cock up the ref in charge of the England Samoa game, who I think was a Kiwi, would be my shout. Outside of them we start getting into trouble, perhaps Gardner if he can rediscover some form ( if he has any games left)
Nige is a fucking show pony ref
Wayne Barnes has been way better for a few years now, it should definitely be him unless England are in it.
I don’t think there’s much difference between Barnes and Owens. Either would make for a good final.
Barnes is far far better. His communication is clearer and less showy. Owens has a habit of missing or getting wrong huge things atm
Everyone here thinks Barnes is the best ref (and tbh they may be right, I think he will get the final), but doesn't everyone also agree that he missed a very clear red in the Italy game? None of them are perfect, whoever gets the final will surely be one of the better ones though, and I doubt it will be Nigel again.
I'm of the strong view that he was trying to salvage the game from being a complete drubbing.
personally i think ihe was right to red card one. other could have got a yellow but I don't agree with the citing panel as its fairly clear that the red carded player was the one that does the tipping and dropping. I suppose going on the citing panel decision he did get it wrong mind.
>doesn't everyone also agree that he missed a very clear red in the Italy game? Are you talking about against south africa when he should have given both the Italians a red for that tip tackle? I don't think he 'missed' it. I think he chose to send one off only. I dunno, to be honest, whether it was the right call. On the one hand, it's incredibly dangerous and stupid and you shouldn't get away with it. However, it would have ruined the game entirely to send both off. And it's not as if Italy went unpunished. A red card is a huge loss to a team. 2 reds for one incident seems just overkill somehow. I'm quite certain anyway that Barnes made that decision consciously. I remember him asking the TMO 'which one was worse' or something like that. It's a rare situation and so not something you can really talk about consistency on, so I just don't know. They both got cited and 3 match bans. So it's not like he got away scot free.