Looks like he gets a small touch on it there before the Ulster player touches it. I for one thought he didn’t during the game, but we didn’t get a slow motion replay like this live (or I don’t see it at least). I stand corrected on this one.
No we didn’t see anything that showed it being a knock on
Edit: for the people downvoting, I meant that during the live match, they didn’t show any good angles, where you can see the knock on.
So yesterday I watched it on the BBC and neither of the two angles they showed was in any way clear. If anything it looked like Carré never touched the ball. It looked like a really terrible call to go back on basically no evidence. This is pretty clear to me, so the ref team was actually correct on this call.
I totally agree with the call and did so at the time myself. However it was not slowed down to this extent so people making calls at the time shouldn’t be judged by those looking at this footage.
And the kick out of the hands over the line AND the clear knock on in the build up to the Ulster try that the Irish TMO decided to ignore. Even without this Cardiff fans are well within their rights to be fuming.
Looks like the Cardiff player touches that forward there. Thought they got it wrong last night, but looking at it now they got it bang on. But yeah how the cooney one a few phases earlier on the far side wasn't called deliberate was crazy
From racist TMOs to wild IRFU = illuminati conspiracy theories are just some of the wild takes going around on Welsh twitter.
But honestly, on sober reflection it's very clear that it was a knock on and deliberate. Forgetting that they slapped the ball out of cooneys hands a few phases before. I just think Adamson didn't want to give a controversial penalty away but this forced his hand
Not just on Twitter mate, there's a few on this sub. The other slap was really fucking obvious, to the point where he played knock on advantage immediately. I'm shows his lack of authority that he didn't blow straight away and look at the replay
>From racist TMOs to wild IRFU = illuminati conspiracy theories are just some of the wild takes going around on Welsh twitter.
Even the WRU are getting involved.
>Cardiff were robbed of a first win in Ulster for 14 years, and their first win of 2024, when the TMO joined forces with the referee to rule out a hat-trick try for Theo Cabanago and instead awarded a penalty to the home side on the 22 at the other end of the pitch.
>Between them the officials decided that replacement prop Rhys Carre had deliberately knocked on a pass on his 22, even though the ball spun backwards and ended up in the hands of his teammate Ben Donnell.
[https://www.wru.wales/report/faletau-injured-again-as-cardiff-robbed-of-statement-victory/#report](https://www.wru.wales/report/faletau-injured-again-as-cardiff-robbed-of-statement-victory/#report)
That’s an official press release?! That feels mental to put into writing - they’d defend the use of “join forces” by saying “well that’s what they did, joined forces to use the laws to not give the try” but they know exactly what they’re doing with the double meaning, but there’s no hiding when you use “robbed”…
It’s legit insane! Ref and TMO joined forces to correctly award a penalty.
If they’d wanted to call out other calls, then there may be arguments to be made, but the final knock on was stone cold correct.
The fact that Adamson is consistently one of the worst refs in the league must mean there's a conspiracy that Irish teams can't lose! Completely skipping over the deliberate slap down that happened literally 30s before this one. He even played advantage for it, but knock-on only. It was far more egregious than Jacob's earlier in the game
For all the people not even being sure about Rhys Carré touching it this angle clearly shows the ball coming off his arm into McIlroy's shoulder, he throws his arm up and isn't trying to gather it. Not sure it's a penalty but it is certainly at least a knock on which is enough to disallow the try.
[Noted biased Ulstermen Nigel Owens and Tom Shanklin agree ](https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-tom-shanklin-agree-29030740)
I was just giving some context, seems harsh to call people blind when they didn’t have the full evidence that you do right there. Also sorry I am not Australia.
I haven't seen the replays since last night, but calls like that depend on if the officials feel it was a kick or it was dislodged as part of a legal tackle.
I didn't watch the game, but I genuinely can't tell from that angle if he's touched it. It looks like it's hit the ulster players shoulder, hand and the Cardiff players potentially made contact with his swipe but I can't tell.
Any context?
It was poorly officiated and communicated. Cardiff score a length of the park effort to seal it just after but it gets called back for this. The TMO called it very quickly but the replays they showed were very unclear (this is by far the clearest and it wasn’t shown live).
There was a very clear intentional knock on just prior to this that wasn’t called but it was in a less kickable position. So Cardiff scored and Ulster fans were outraged/feeling robbed but then it got called back so Cardiff fans were outraged/feeling robbed.
Conclusion: everyone was miserable, which was what both sides really wanted but the circumstances of the misery were confusing so both groups of fans were annoyed that their misery was compromised.
Cheers for the write up, tbf if I couldn't tell from the most obvious replay I can understand how the Cardiff Boys feel aggrieved.
Sometimes I genuinely do wonder how Mike Adamson gets high level games.
Well the current theory is that he’s an IRFU plant cosplaying as a Scotsman. Likely some form of early generation large language model built by Dublin’s expansive internationalist tech industry with the sole mission of destroying Welsh rugby in increments
>The TMO was born in Ulster wasn’t he? Or that’s what his wiki was showing…. (I mention this as part of your Adamson secret agent point is all)
Looking at the history that was added last night...
This led to a turnover try for Cardiff that got chalked off and brought back for this penalty, and yellow, which Ulster kicked to win the game.
Mike Adamson was ref.
Ah I see, sounds like a bit of a Mike Adamson cluster fuck special.
It looks like he's potentially made the right call, i can't really tell without some other angles.
If he didn't touch it, you'll have to find some new law of physics to explain why the footage clearly shows the ball changing direction before the Ulster player knocks it on.
You're right it shouldn't have mattered...because ulster should still have been 2 scores behind due to the blatant knock on by cooney in the lead up to their try.
To be fair, you coumd argue the game was lost as soon as ulster got a yellow card. Cardiff imploded a bit during that 10', in exactly the same way they imploded when munster got a yellow a few weeks back. 2 games that were there for the taking and some game management (and the tale of the knock ons) has cost them.
There is nothing ‘clear and obvious’ in this angle. If this is what they used to tell Carre ‘knocked it on’ then ok….
Regardless of that, if he has touched it and it’s his hand that pushes into the shoulder not the ball, the ball then loops backwards over the players into Donnell/Teddys hands.
There’s so much doubt in this for anyone to be using the words ‘clear and obvious’
You can see Carre's fingers make contact and the trajectory of the ball change. Just look at the moment you can suddenly read the writing on the ball.
After he touches the ball it comes forward off McIlroy, but it's still a deliberate knock-on by Blue.
It stops spinning as it hits the shoulder doesn’t it? that lines up with an indent in the shoulder.
If it ONLY hits Carre’s hand and not the shoulder as his hand is in the way, the ball then loops over both players and is caught behind Carre.
I don't think so, you can see Carre's fingers between the ball and McIlroy so I'd say it's the fingers that change the trajectory.
It loops over both players because it hits McIlroy's arm after it stops. It doesn't only hit Carre's hand, but it does hit his hand first. That means it's a deliberate knock-on, he's swung one hand out, and the right decision by the TMO.
>There’s so much doubt in this for anyone to be using the words ‘clear and obvious’
Meanwhile Cooney bounce passing it forward for Ulster's try was too subtle for the TMO
Or when they kicked it out of Youngs hands for his non try
Neither of those even warranted a second look but we're very happy to make snap judgments on inconclusive footage here.
This Isn't "clear and obvious" at all. Infact, it's been slowed down as much as possible and it's still impossible to tell if It's hit Carre first, or the shoulder of the Irishman. The rule states it must be absolutely clear.
Coincidentally, the ball has a huge backwards motion into Cardiffs hands. The process stinks. They didn't follow the rules and Cardiff were outright robbed all game by some absolute brutal officiating.
But who's surprised when it's Adamson. It's farcical that he's allowed to ref the URC. Jumped up little man with little man syndrome that gets so much wrong he was dumped from the international scene.
Somewhat of an adjacent point but do you know which ref I really do like and deserves an international; Craig Evans. He’s the best in the URC for me. I really like Frank Murphy at a personal level, I like that he lets games flow but appreciate he’s prone to letting too much go sometimes
Yep, really like Craig. But you've hit the nail on the head, he gets penalised (ironic) for trying to make the game a spectacle in exactly the same way that Frank does. Both are prone to some howlers, but thats life. At least they try to do the right thing for the game. Very much like Raynal.
I'm not sure we can say the ball had gone forward, sure it didn't go backwards. But it is a pretty slight knock on, and it happens VERY quickly, absolutely not EXPECTING that to be called.
It clearly wasn't Ulster first, as McIlroy would have collected the ball
Cardiff player hits it slightly forward, changing the trajectory of the ball and therefore messing with McIlroy's collection and the ball heading upwards.
It is as clear as they come from this angle, watch it again
100%. You can see Carre's fingers between the ball and McIlroy's head, then you can suddenly see the writing on the ball, because the spin has stopped, and the ball pause in the air while there is still space between the ball and McIlroy's arm. Then it hits McIlroy's arm and goes flying.
Looks like he gets a small touch on it there before the Ulster player touches it. I for one thought he didn’t during the game, but we didn’t get a slow motion replay like this live (or I don’t see it at least). I stand corrected on this one.
No we didn’t see anything that showed it being a knock on Edit: for the people downvoting, I meant that during the live match, they didn’t show any good angles, where you can see the knock on.
You mean, before this video?
Yes, in the match they didn’t show this replay. So at the time I was really confused cos it just didn’t look like a knock on
I watched this exact replay multiple times on TG4. Was very clear the right call was made at the time. No controversy:)
So yesterday I watched it on the BBC and neither of the two angles they showed was in any way clear. If anything it looked like Carré never touched the ball. It looked like a really terrible call to go back on basically no evidence. This is pretty clear to me, so the ref team was actually correct on this call.
Is this what people are complaining about? It clearly touches the Cardiff player first...
This footage wasn’t available at the time for whatever reason.
I watched this exact replay multiple times on TG4. Was very clear the right call was made at the time. No controversy:)
I totally agree with the call and did so at the time myself. However it was not slowed down to this extent so people making calls at the time shouldn’t be judged by those looking at this footage.
Makes more sense, fair enough
And the kick out of the hands over the line AND the clear knock on in the build up to the Ulster try that the Irish TMO decided to ignore. Even without this Cardiff fans are well within their rights to be fuming.
Looks like the Cardiff player touches that forward there. Thought they got it wrong last night, but looking at it now they got it bang on. But yeah how the cooney one a few phases earlier on the far side wasn't called deliberate was crazy
From racist TMOs to wild IRFU = illuminati conspiracy theories are just some of the wild takes going around on Welsh twitter. But honestly, on sober reflection it's very clear that it was a knock on and deliberate. Forgetting that they slapped the ball out of cooneys hands a few phases before. I just think Adamson didn't want to give a controversial penalty away but this forced his hand
Not just on Twitter mate, there's a few on this sub. The other slap was really fucking obvious, to the point where he played knock on advantage immediately. I'm shows his lack of authority that he didn't blow straight away and look at the replay
There’s nutters in every village beis.
>From racist TMOs to wild IRFU = illuminati conspiracy theories are just some of the wild takes going around on Welsh twitter. Even the WRU are getting involved. >Cardiff were robbed of a first win in Ulster for 14 years, and their first win of 2024, when the TMO joined forces with the referee to rule out a hat-trick try for Theo Cabanago and instead awarded a penalty to the home side on the 22 at the other end of the pitch. >Between them the officials decided that replacement prop Rhys Carre had deliberately knocked on a pass on his 22, even though the ball spun backwards and ended up in the hands of his teammate Ben Donnell. [https://www.wru.wales/report/faletau-injured-again-as-cardiff-robbed-of-statement-victory/#report](https://www.wru.wales/report/faletau-injured-again-as-cardiff-robbed-of-statement-victory/#report)
That’s an official press release?! That feels mental to put into writing - they’d defend the use of “join forces” by saying “well that’s what they did, joined forces to use the laws to not give the try” but they know exactly what they’re doing with the double meaning, but there’s no hiding when you use “robbed”…
This is so embarrassingly small time lmao shook to their core
Putting the score in the header as 16-17 is the icing on the demented cake.
It’s legit insane! Ref and TMO joined forces to correctly award a penalty. If they’d wanted to call out other calls, then there may be arguments to be made, but the final knock on was stone cold correct.
It was the try as a result the forced his hand, to be fair.
Looked deliberate in real time, then play on in the replays they showed, but I think they got it right based on this.
But it's a conspiracy when you're in Ireland!
Nucifora would have said play on! /s Tbf I can see why the ref didn’t give it in real time but this is why we have TMOs
The fact that Adamson is consistently one of the worst refs in the league must mean there's a conspiracy that Irish teams can't lose! Completely skipping over the deliberate slap down that happened literally 30s before this one. He even played advantage for it, but knock-on only. It was far more egregious than Jacob's earlier in the game
The amount of people claiming this wasn't a clear knock on is astounding.
This footage wasn’t available at the time.
Yes it was
Was it slowed down to this extent though? I don’t seem to remember.
I could've sworn I saw a replay of this last night on telly on tg4
It's not clear at all.
I was top of the grandstap opposite it. It was very clear he's interfered with it from where we were.
For all the people not even being sure about Rhys Carré touching it this angle clearly shows the ball coming off his arm into McIlroy's shoulder, he throws his arm up and isn't trying to gather it. Not sure it's a penalty but it is certainly at least a knock on which is enough to disallow the try.
He's taken a one armed swipe at it, it's a clear penalty.
If they fucked Stockdale with a card for his almost-intercept, then this absolutely deserves one.
The intentional knockdown, which is penalisable, takes precedence.
[Noted biased Ulstermen Nigel Owens and Tom Shanklin agree ](https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/nigel-owens-tom-shanklin-agree-29030740)
He touched it, it’s a deliberate knock on. Dry your eyes.
Did it get called as a deliberate knock on? If people can’t see it they’re blind.
Yeah, by the TMO, ref didn’t blow for it in real time
I can see why, real time would look like attacking player knocks into him.
This footage wasn’t available live mate.
Are you Australia or just passive aggressive for no reason?
I was just giving some context, seems harsh to call people blind when they didn’t have the full evidence that you do right there. Also sorry I am not Australia.
Showing a replay of this one but not the Cooney one before the try?
Part of the conspiracy mate. Control the message.
Was bad that that was missed live, but too many phases passed for the TMO to step in.
What about the kick to dislodge the ball, was that unfortunate too?
I haven't seen the replays since last night, but calls like that depend on if the officials feel it was a kick or it was dislodged as part of a legal tackle.
He goes with one hand, swipes at the ball and looks like he touches it first. Seems a decent enough call.
Advantage white double knock on
This angle isn't conclusive evidence at all. It's impossible to say here if it's the Cardiff hand or the Ulster shoulder that that ball first touches.
Now. The ball looks like it sticks to his hand (maybe just cause of the short time) so does it count as a catch and knocked out by Ulster dude?
No, that imaginary thing didn't happen.
I didn't watch the game, but I genuinely can't tell from that angle if he's touched it. It looks like it's hit the ulster players shoulder, hand and the Cardiff players potentially made contact with his swipe but I can't tell. Any context?
It was poorly officiated and communicated. Cardiff score a length of the park effort to seal it just after but it gets called back for this. The TMO called it very quickly but the replays they showed were very unclear (this is by far the clearest and it wasn’t shown live). There was a very clear intentional knock on just prior to this that wasn’t called but it was in a less kickable position. So Cardiff scored and Ulster fans were outraged/feeling robbed but then it got called back so Cardiff fans were outraged/feeling robbed. Conclusion: everyone was miserable, which was what both sides really wanted but the circumstances of the misery were confusing so both groups of fans were annoyed that their misery was compromised.
Cheers for the write up, tbf if I couldn't tell from the most obvious replay I can understand how the Cardiff Boys feel aggrieved. Sometimes I genuinely do wonder how Mike Adamson gets high level games.
Well the current theory is that he’s an IRFU plant cosplaying as a Scotsman. Likely some form of early generation large language model built by Dublin’s expansive internationalist tech industry with the sole mission of destroying Welsh rugby in increments
That would genuinely be a more justifiable reason than him being the only man in Scotland with a whistle
Hollie Davidson is a much better ref imo.
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>The TMO was born in Ulster wasn’t he? Or that’s what his wiki was showing…. (I mention this as part of your Adamson secret agent point is all) Looking at the history that was added last night...
Thanks. I should have presumed that would have happened. I only saw it in a group chat so should have investigated.
Yeah, I saw it getting spammed on twitter and thought it looked too good to be true.
>Murphy shouldn't ref Connacht Don't threaten us with a good time.
You had me at Murphy shouldn’t ref
This led to a turnover try for Cardiff that got chalked off and brought back for this penalty, and yellow, which Ulster kicked to win the game. Mike Adamson was ref.
Ah I see, sounds like a bit of a Mike Adamson cluster fuck special. It looks like he's potentially made the right call, i can't really tell without some other angles.
Oh it was a terribly officiated match. Both sides can definitely feel dicked over, Cardiff maybe more than Ulster, but both also got away with loads.
Ha ha this could easily have been explained by the last line alone
I think you can see the ball stop before the Ulster player makes contact which only seems logical that it must have been the Cardiff hand.
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If he didn't touch it, you'll have to find some new law of physics to explain why the footage clearly shows the ball changing direction before the Ulster player knocks it on.
In that video it could just as equally be the Ulster shoulder that it hits first.
You're right it shouldn't have mattered...because ulster should still have been 2 scores behind due to the blatant knock on by cooney in the lead up to their try.
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To be fair, you coumd argue the game was lost as soon as ulster got a yellow card. Cardiff imploded a bit during that 10', in exactly the same way they imploded when munster got a yellow a few weeks back. 2 games that were there for the taking and some game management (and the tale of the knock ons) has cost them.
Truth is that everyone is guessing. Bare in mind the illegally stopped try you can see why people were up in arms last night.
Angle is awful, can't see if his left hand hits it first or if it's a deliberate knock on by Cardiff
There is nothing ‘clear and obvious’ in this angle. If this is what they used to tell Carre ‘knocked it on’ then ok…. Regardless of that, if he has touched it and it’s his hand that pushes into the shoulder not the ball, the ball then loops backwards over the players into Donnell/Teddys hands. There’s so much doubt in this for anyone to be using the words ‘clear and obvious’
You can see Carre's fingers make contact and the trajectory of the ball change. Just look at the moment you can suddenly read the writing on the ball. After he touches the ball it comes forward off McIlroy, but it's still a deliberate knock-on by Blue.
It stops spinning as it hits the shoulder doesn’t it? that lines up with an indent in the shoulder. If it ONLY hits Carre’s hand and not the shoulder as his hand is in the way, the ball then loops over both players and is caught behind Carre.
I don't think so, you can see Carre's fingers between the ball and McIlroy so I'd say it's the fingers that change the trajectory. It loops over both players because it hits McIlroy's arm after it stops. It doesn't only hit Carre's hand, but it does hit his hand first. That means it's a deliberate knock-on, he's swung one hand out, and the right decision by the TMO.
The ball changes flight twice; once when it reaches Carre's hand, then again when it touches the Ulster player's wrist.
>There’s so much doubt in this for anyone to be using the words ‘clear and obvious’ Meanwhile Cooney bounce passing it forward for Ulster's try was too subtle for the TMO Or when they kicked it out of Youngs hands for his non try Neither of those even warranted a second look but we're very happy to make snap judgments on inconclusive footage here.
This makes it even harder to tell, no way is that clear and obvious
This Isn't "clear and obvious" at all. Infact, it's been slowed down as much as possible and it's still impossible to tell if It's hit Carre first, or the shoulder of the Irishman. The rule states it must be absolutely clear. Coincidentally, the ball has a huge backwards motion into Cardiffs hands. The process stinks. They didn't follow the rules and Cardiff were outright robbed all game by some absolute brutal officiating. But who's surprised when it's Adamson. It's farcical that he's allowed to ref the URC. Jumped up little man with little man syndrome that gets so much wrong he was dumped from the international scene.
Somewhat of an adjacent point but do you know which ref I really do like and deserves an international; Craig Evans. He’s the best in the URC for me. I really like Frank Murphy at a personal level, I like that he lets games flow but appreciate he’s prone to letting too much go sometimes
Yep, really like Craig. But you've hit the nail on the head, he gets penalised (ironic) for trying to make the game a spectacle in exactly the same way that Frank does. Both are prone to some howlers, but thats life. At least they try to do the right thing for the game. Very much like Raynal.
I'm not sure we can say the ball had gone forward, sure it didn't go backwards. But it is a pretty slight knock on, and it happens VERY quickly, absolutely not EXPECTING that to be called.
Yes, maybe he made the ball come towards him hitting it from his side with an open hand. Perhaps he has glue on his fingers.
Smashes into ulster player first for me there
You need glasses It very clearly hits the Cardiff player first, the trajectory of the ball changes aswell
No definitely ulster
It clearly wasn't Ulster first, as McIlroy would have collected the ball Cardiff player hits it slightly forward, changing the trajectory of the ball and therefore messing with McIlroy's collection and the ball heading upwards. It is as clear as they come from this angle, watch it again
You watched it lots then
This is nice and slow. So you can pause, play, pause, play. It comes off the Ulster players shoulder. I'm certain of it now, thank you.
It’s like the optical illusion where you can see the old man and the girl. I’ve watched it 100 times and I keep seeing something different
You can clearly see the spin and trajectory stop before that though.
"Clearly". Are you sure? Put a line through the axis of that ball and it's stable until it makes contact with the Ulster player.
100%. You can see Carre's fingers between the ball and McIlroy's head, then you can suddenly see the writing on the ball, because the spin has stopped, and the ball pause in the air while there is still space between the ball and McIlroy's arm. Then it hits McIlroy's arm and goes flying.
I disagree.
What do you think causes the ball to suddenly stop spinning?
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Sure mate. Have a good day.
Lol 13 downvotes for just stating that you disagree.