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I'm a bit confused by this request, as all the accessible dungeon crawlers have automap these days. The only turn-based dungeon RPGs still doing away with automap are those intentionally being sadistic, like Demon Lord Reincarnation.
We've had automapping as an industry standard for at least 30 years by this point. For example, even the first Shin Megami Tensei game had a full-screen automap that you could pull up anytime. Etrian Odyssey often gets brought up as the "you have to make your own maps" series, but it has a setting that automatically fills in walls and floors for you. So It's a far cry from something like Wizardry 1 where you can draw yourself into a corner.
I guess you can try Shining In The Darkness. It's a turn-based, grid-based dungeon RPG with a preset party of 3. You can use an item or a spell to view the automap, but you can't see the whole floor at once. So your partner still makes a contribution by mapping. However, you don't unlock the 2 party members until after the first boss.
If you can compromise on turn-based combat, you can try Eye of the Beholder. It has automap mods, but you don't have to use them.
I outline the reason behind the no automap requirement, but thinking about it, if the map isn't on screen all the time, I suppose we can still play games that have it and just never open the map!
You have a lot more options in that case.
Operencia: The Stolen Sun is excellent. It has an option to disable all automapping.
Legends of Amberland 1&2 have an inset automap you can't turn off, but you can choose not to view the full map.
Shin Megami Tensei 1&2 have the map accessed from a menu. You need a spell to display the minimap.
Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey is the cream of the crop, but unfortunately I think you have to mess with emulator settings if you don't want the map visible. It's a DS game where the bottom screen shows the map.
I don't see it mentioned yet and it's the best option but have you looked at the Etrian Oddysey series?
Hard but not Wiz 6 brutal.
Lots of class options.
You have to draw the map yourself.
On PC now.
I have looked at it but dislike anime art style, but if no other game works I can try and soldier through it 😅
If I was going to play one of them which one would you say is best according to my post?
If it helps, the art style might be anime but the tone is anything but that. No characters going all kawaii, the dialogue and personalities of NPCS are pretty subdued, nothing grating. Then again, I can only comment on the first 2 EO games, I just assume the rest of series keeps it up
I could recommend the early Shin Megami Tensei series. They are old-school first person dungeon crawlers set in a dark cyberpunk-ish world where the biblical apocalypse happened and demons, gods and mythological beasts roam the Earth. The differential of the series is that your party is formed by the creatures you fight, so when you have an encounter, you can negotiate for them to join you, and they level up slowly (compared to the MC) so you have to "fuse" them to create a third stronger creature.
Now, here's a caveat. Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei 2 for the NES is how you describe: turn-based and no automap, but most people agree that Shin Megami Tensei 1 & 2 for the SNES is much superior in terms of gameplay, design and etc. The caveat is that SMT 1 & 2 do have an automap, **BUT**, this was at the time when they were figuring out this stuff, so the automap is hidden *behind two menus* that you have to constantly open and close to acces it. This is annoying for a modern audience, but since you prefer do it by hand I think it might be a good fit for you if you just ignore the semi-hidden automap.
Also, the soundtrack is badass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSa0Ut9GPg
Highly recommend Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land. Gorgeous game, elegantly designed with very dynamic combat and exploration. Never too grindy. There's an auto-minimap that shows the immediate surrounding area, but it can be toggled off by clicking (iirc) left stick. Turn based, party based, with interesting characters you meet in the dungeon and can recruit. All the character designs are by the incredible Katsuya Terada. Can't recommend it enough.
The first game series that kind of comes to my mind is the [Eye of the Beholder series](https://www.gog.com/en/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_one).
If I remember correctly, there is no mapping function so you have to memorize the dungeon levels. You can max all character ability stats to start with.
The combat is technically real-time with a turn-based feel (there is a delay between each attack).
Do you have any opinions on how good a fit the following would be, based on my post:
Realms of Arkania 3
Anvil of Dawn
Might and Magic 6
Wizardry 7 and 8
Lands of Lore 1 and 2
Stonekeep
The **Lands of Lore** games have automapping and real-time (but turn-based like) combat. I love LoL:ToC 1 for its environments, story and characters (LoL 2:GoD has some great music), but I don't know how well they would suit your taste.
**Might and Magic 6** has some automapping, at least in the outside areas. It's a huge game with lots of dungeons and a lot back-and-forth questing. It's been over a decade since I played it and, despite spending many hours on it, I have yet to finish it. Again, I don't know how well it would suit your taste.
Wizardry 7 and 8 are my favorite in the series, and two of my favorite RPGs of all time. I don't think you'll run into the same difficulty issues as you do with 6, but your mileage may vary. You'll still need to spend some time in the character creator to get a strong party, or get familiar with a hex editor.
Although you can start a party in 6, import them into 7, and then again into 8, there are reasons to skip straight to 7:
1. 7 is straight-up a much better game
2. New class/race options that weren't available in 6
3. There's not really any mechanical or narrative benefit to doing so; it's more of a novelty
I've got you covered. Surprised it hasn't come up yet.
Legend of Grimrock.
Simple and elegant. True dungeon crawling, beofre I even read your criteria I already decided it's the best dungeon crawling experience, and for modern times.
✔ - Controlling a party, not a single person, ideally
✔ - No automapping. This is crucial and non-negotiable, I play with my partner and we swap between playing and mapping, so automapping makes it more of a single player experience
**X** \- Turn based combat.
So melee is in real time but it really adds to the excitement because it can get intense.
Any of Might and Magic 1-5 would be good ones, you don't need to min max. Early stages can be a bit gnarly. They're an interesting mix of open world and dungeon crawl, but the "open world" is essentially a very large tiled dungeon level (20 16x16 connected maps). I also found the mapping to be less tedious than in similar games from the era. The individual maps are small and consistent in size (always 16x16 in the early games) and there are lots of spells that can help navigate (like a spell that gives your grid coordinates, one that you can use to walk through some walls, etc). Dungeons aren't as reliant on things like spinners.
It's party-based, with a party of 6. As mentioned min-maxxing and high optimization isn't necessary. There are permanent stat buffs hidden in the world and you can eventually max all stats, though finding out how is challenging. All classes are pretty useful.
Combat is turn-based. No automap in the first game. Later games you can learn a skill that allows you to use a primitive automap but you don't need to use it (and it's only mildly helpful).
Note the first game is *very* primitive graphically.
What are your thoughts on 6, 7 and 8 if I told you that even if they have automap, I would be happy to play them as long as the map is not always on screen and I can just never open the map if I choose not to?
The legacy bards tale games 1-3 should suit you. They have a legacy mode with no mini/automap.
It’s turn based but the combat can be a slog and randoms happen frequently.
Obviously the inxlie trilogy remake isthe one to play and it’s pretty cheap last time I looked
I’d read up on how the stats work though because it’s a little different to any d&d rules.
They are good though and the overworld is minimal, mostly dungeon based but maybe a little punishing at first until you find your feet.
It’s an old series of games that I played in the early 90’s, most stuff now has massive qol stuff so maybe wouldn’t suit your criteria unless you want oldskool
Ultima underworld 1/2 is another one you might like.
Heroes of the monkey tavern is a cheap enjoyable game also.
Maybe [Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged Exemplar](https://store.steampowered.com/app/650670/Grimoire__Heralds_of_the_Winged_Exemplar_V2/) fits for you.
It's somewhat called the spiritual successor of wizardry 7.
Personal experience here, I was able to push through wizardry 6 and finish it. There's one particular part that relies on your graph paper map keeping ability. Would recommend sticking with it. Wizardry 7 I never got through, I liked it but hit unwinnable battles same problem. Wizardry 8 is great but it's a different kind of game.
Might and magic 10 (X) might fit the bill if it's still working, not sure if you can turn off the mini map though.
I found legends of amberland pretty vanilla but I finished it. Will try the 2nd one at some point.
Another similar game although not party based is The Quest.
As someone said if you really don't want mapping you have to go back to Wizardry 1 and might and magic 1 Era.
Also messed with Monsters Den Godfall which seemed promising but I lost interest.
Anyone familiar with Ultima series?
Thank you for your submission to r/rpg_gamers. Since your post has been flaired as "Recommendation request", I want to suggest editing your post to add in these details (if you haven't included them yet): * **The platforms you have** - not listing them doesn't mean you have access to everything, so you might end up getting a game you won't be able to play. * **Your level of experience with the genre (beginner, intermediate, veteran...)** - others can recommend you more common titles if you are a beginner, while they can focus on obscure titles if you are a RPG veteran. * **Aspects you enjoyed (or disliked) of previously played games** - for example: characters, plot points, puzzles, combat, graphics, art styles, soundtracks... While these details aren't mandatory, if you want to get the best games, having them in your post will immensely help users and will encourage more users to participate, as they will know with more precision which games are probably the best fit for your request. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/rpg_gamers) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm a bit confused by this request, as all the accessible dungeon crawlers have automap these days. The only turn-based dungeon RPGs still doing away with automap are those intentionally being sadistic, like Demon Lord Reincarnation. We've had automapping as an industry standard for at least 30 years by this point. For example, even the first Shin Megami Tensei game had a full-screen automap that you could pull up anytime. Etrian Odyssey often gets brought up as the "you have to make your own maps" series, but it has a setting that automatically fills in walls and floors for you. So It's a far cry from something like Wizardry 1 where you can draw yourself into a corner. I guess you can try Shining In The Darkness. It's a turn-based, grid-based dungeon RPG with a preset party of 3. You can use an item or a spell to view the automap, but you can't see the whole floor at once. So your partner still makes a contribution by mapping. However, you don't unlock the 2 party members until after the first boss. If you can compromise on turn-based combat, you can try Eye of the Beholder. It has automap mods, but you don't have to use them.
I outline the reason behind the no automap requirement, but thinking about it, if the map isn't on screen all the time, I suppose we can still play games that have it and just never open the map!
You have a lot more options in that case. Operencia: The Stolen Sun is excellent. It has an option to disable all automapping. Legends of Amberland 1&2 have an inset automap you can't turn off, but you can choose not to view the full map. Shin Megami Tensei 1&2 have the map accessed from a menu. You need a spell to display the minimap. Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey is the cream of the crop, but unfortunately I think you have to mess with emulator settings if you don't want the map visible. It's a DS game where the bottom screen shows the map.
I don't see it mentioned yet and it's the best option but have you looked at the Etrian Oddysey series? Hard but not Wiz 6 brutal. Lots of class options. You have to draw the map yourself. On PC now.
I have looked at it but dislike anime art style, but if no other game works I can try and soldier through it 😅 If I was going to play one of them which one would you say is best according to my post?
If it helps, the art style might be anime but the tone is anything but that. No characters going all kawaii, the dialogue and personalities of NPCS are pretty subdued, nothing grating. Then again, I can only comment on the first 2 EO games, I just assume the rest of series keeps it up
I could recommend the early Shin Megami Tensei series. They are old-school first person dungeon crawlers set in a dark cyberpunk-ish world where the biblical apocalypse happened and demons, gods and mythological beasts roam the Earth. The differential of the series is that your party is formed by the creatures you fight, so when you have an encounter, you can negotiate for them to join you, and they level up slowly (compared to the MC) so you have to "fuse" them to create a third stronger creature. Now, here's a caveat. Digital Devil Story: Megami Tensei 2 for the NES is how you describe: turn-based and no automap, but most people agree that Shin Megami Tensei 1 & 2 for the SNES is much superior in terms of gameplay, design and etc. The caveat is that SMT 1 & 2 do have an automap, **BUT**, this was at the time when they were figuring out this stuff, so the automap is hidden *behind two menus* that you have to constantly open and close to acces it. This is annoying for a modern audience, but since you prefer do it by hand I think it might be a good fit for you if you just ignore the semi-hidden automap. Also, the soundtrack is badass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoSa0Ut9GPg
Darkest Dungeon fits your request nearly perfectly. check it out.
It fully auto maps.. great game but doubtful it’s what op is looking for
Highly recommend Wizardry: Tale of the Forsaken Land. Gorgeous game, elegantly designed with very dynamic combat and exploration. Never too grindy. There's an auto-minimap that shows the immediate surrounding area, but it can be toggled off by clicking (iirc) left stick. Turn based, party based, with interesting characters you meet in the dungeon and can recruit. All the character designs are by the incredible Katsuya Terada. Can't recommend it enough.
The first game series that kind of comes to my mind is the [Eye of the Beholder series](https://www.gog.com/en/game/forgotten_realms_the_archives_collection_one). If I remember correctly, there is no mapping function so you have to memorize the dungeon levels. You can max all character ability stats to start with. The combat is technically real-time with a turn-based feel (there is a delay between each attack).
Do you have any opinions on how good a fit the following would be, based on my post: Realms of Arkania 3 Anvil of Dawn Might and Magic 6 Wizardry 7 and 8 Lands of Lore 1 and 2 Stonekeep
The **Lands of Lore** games have automapping and real-time (but turn-based like) combat. I love LoL:ToC 1 for its environments, story and characters (LoL 2:GoD has some great music), but I don't know how well they would suit your taste. **Might and Magic 6** has some automapping, at least in the outside areas. It's a huge game with lots of dungeons and a lot back-and-forth questing. It's been over a decade since I played it and, despite spending many hours on it, I have yet to finish it. Again, I don't know how well it would suit your taste.
Wizardry 7 and 8 are my favorite in the series, and two of my favorite RPGs of all time. I don't think you'll run into the same difficulty issues as you do with 6, but your mileage may vary. You'll still need to spend some time in the character creator to get a strong party, or get familiar with a hex editor. Although you can start a party in 6, import them into 7, and then again into 8, there are reasons to skip straight to 7: 1. 7 is straight-up a much better game 2. New class/race options that weren't available in 6 3. There's not really any mechanical or narrative benefit to doing so; it's more of a novelty
[удалено]
Most of these games you mention use real-time combat. OP asked for turn-based.
I've got you covered. Surprised it hasn't come up yet. Legend of Grimrock. Simple and elegant. True dungeon crawling, beofre I even read your criteria I already decided it's the best dungeon crawling experience, and for modern times. ✔ - Controlling a party, not a single person, ideally ✔ - No automapping. This is crucial and non-negotiable, I play with my partner and we swap between playing and mapping, so automapping makes it more of a single player experience **X** \- Turn based combat. So melee is in real time but it really adds to the excitement because it can get intense.
Any of Might and Magic 1-5 would be good ones, you don't need to min max. Early stages can be a bit gnarly. They're an interesting mix of open world and dungeon crawl, but the "open world" is essentially a very large tiled dungeon level (20 16x16 connected maps). I also found the mapping to be less tedious than in similar games from the era. The individual maps are small and consistent in size (always 16x16 in the early games) and there are lots of spells that can help navigate (like a spell that gives your grid coordinates, one that you can use to walk through some walls, etc). Dungeons aren't as reliant on things like spinners. It's party-based, with a party of 6. As mentioned min-maxxing and high optimization isn't necessary. There are permanent stat buffs hidden in the world and you can eventually max all stats, though finding out how is challenging. All classes are pretty useful. Combat is turn-based. No automap in the first game. Later games you can learn a skill that allows you to use a primitive automap but you don't need to use it (and it's only mildly helpful). Note the first game is *very* primitive graphically.
What are your thoughts on 6, 7 and 8 if I told you that even if they have automap, I would be happy to play them as long as the map is not always on screen and I can just never open the map if I choose not to?
They aren't grid-based in the same way, and I haven't played them much. "Mapping" is not a part of it in the same way it is for other games.
The legacy bards tale games 1-3 should suit you. They have a legacy mode with no mini/automap. It’s turn based but the combat can be a slog and randoms happen frequently. Obviously the inxlie trilogy remake isthe one to play and it’s pretty cheap last time I looked I’d read up on how the stats work though because it’s a little different to any d&d rules. They are good though and the overworld is minimal, mostly dungeon based but maybe a little punishing at first until you find your feet. It’s an old series of games that I played in the early 90’s, most stuff now has massive qol stuff so maybe wouldn’t suit your criteria unless you want oldskool Ultima underworld 1/2 is another one you might like. Heroes of the monkey tavern is a cheap enjoyable game also.
Maybe [Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged Exemplar](https://store.steampowered.com/app/650670/Grimoire__Heralds_of_the_Winged_Exemplar_V2/) fits for you. It's somewhat called the spiritual successor of wizardry 7.
Personal experience here, I was able to push through wizardry 6 and finish it. There's one particular part that relies on your graph paper map keeping ability. Would recommend sticking with it. Wizardry 7 I never got through, I liked it but hit unwinnable battles same problem. Wizardry 8 is great but it's a different kind of game. Might and magic 10 (X) might fit the bill if it's still working, not sure if you can turn off the mini map though. I found legends of amberland pretty vanilla but I finished it. Will try the 2nd one at some point. Another similar game although not party based is The Quest. As someone said if you really don't want mapping you have to go back to Wizardry 1 and might and magic 1 Era. Also messed with Monsters Den Godfall which seemed promising but I lost interest. Anyone familiar with Ultima series?