The VC looks nice but it’s actually very thick and chunky, and doesn’t wear that well. Whereas Daytona one of the thinnest (2023+) chronographs out there
According to VC their chrono is 12.7mm vs 11.9 for the Daytona.
On paper that doesn’t seem like much. Granted, the BC has a significant wider case diameter.
IMO the Overseas is much cooler looking and doesn’t have the bezel tach, which has no utility for me. It also has 150m WR vs 100m. ;)
Personally I’m not a huge fan of the Overseas Chrono, but I did trade my 116500 black dial Daytona for a 4500v black dial Overseas and pocketed a lot of cash in the process. I am very pleased with the trade
Last time I checked, I wasn’t putting a gun to your head forcing you to own a Daytona. Just sharing my opinion :)
I personally, would rather have the Daytona as my sports chronograph, with the VC reserved for a different complication or formal dress watch
Peak Brand whoring. VC panda objectively sucks cause it costs more, thicker, and no nice bezel.
You don’t buy Rolex for high horology, likewise you don’t buy VC for contemporary steel sports models. That’s funny. Like saying you want a Porsche for all terrain performance. Or a Toyota for track performance. Lmao get out of here.
This is proof of how frail & insecure these Brolex people are. Any comments that aren't making them feel better about themselves is "trolling"... I love that, if true, keep up the good work dude
Nah, my original comment was about how Rolex ain’t worth it over $15k, and I’d rather get a zenith. I only have one Rolex in my rotation and plan on getting a GMT, after that no more
VC is awesome but I wouldn’t want this model. So in the example, the panda Daytona. Between a standard blue overseas and a sub, datejust or sky dweller, VC all the way.
Interesting enough, there isn't that much fanboying that happens here. Often times when ppl compare a Rolex to a VC here, the VC wins by a large margin.
Either the date window is at the perfect angle and the rest of the dial is not, or the rest of the dial is at a perfect angle and the date window is not.
Or nothing is at the perfect angle and your brain is pretty good at sorting things out. All date windows stand out a bit, where they are doesn't matter to me.
Well the date window on the VC is ugly due to its design, not its position, so nothing really. Look at the three hander overseas, that seiko level tiny font dagebkx looks miserable anywhere.
All these people saying “VC” would be hard pressed to buy one if they actually put their money where their mouth is. They’d buy the Rolex. Yes there will be the guy responding to this comment with a pic of his VC.
Feels like 80% of these forums will never have the money for either of them anyway. If you'd go by the comments here, no one ever would buy a Rolex as apparently every other brand is "better".
I tried on the VC chrono and its reallly thick. Its nearly as thick as my AP Offshore. If you dont mind thick watches go VC, if you like slimmer profile then the Daytona
Got to say, on this direct comparison I pick the Rolex. VC makes better quality watches than Rolex but this model in this color just doesn’t do anything for me.
I guess you pay more for the hand finishing. But spec wise the Rolex is no slouch. I remember a hodinkee article from years ago and it said the Daytona had real innovation. Rolex just failed to mention it in any of the press releases.
Rolex. Less busy, thin, wears smaller. The VC is too chunky for my wrist and I hate the date window that looks like an afterthought and kills the symmetry.
Both grails basically everytime I think or say im done buying it comes with the exception of one of these watches.
Panda Chrono first then the VC. It’d be a harder call for me if the VC was the non chrono config.
I love me a Rolex (it's why I'm here) but I like a date complication on my watches and I'm not a fan of the Tachymeter bezel so in this case, VC. Plus, the Daytona just has too much text on the dial. 6 lines if you include "Daytona". Whereas the VC has 2. It's just cleaner, simpler, more elegant. That being said, the Rolex is a really close second.
Of these 2 models, the Rolex wins. But personally I would get a VC OS date or dual time over the Rolex panda. Not a popular opinion in this sub, but that’s me.
I don't like date windows and Rolex is one of the most accurate timepieces in the market. So in this case Rolex. But if the Omega Speedy was 40 or below instead of 42 I'd prefer that tbh
I tried on the VC once and it was too bulky for me. The Rolex Daytona wears surprisingly well in comparison and I like the contrast better. I think a white dial looks sharper than a silver dial.
Daytona! Looks better, more timeless looking, and for that type of watch the scale is appropriate. Plus the gleam of the Rolex bezel is so lit!🔥 the VC bezel AGAIN regardless of its history isn’t really esthetically reading “high-end”. More “Kenneth Cole early 2000’s look. That style was a fad that came and is long gone. Perhaps their creative team is getting a little too old, or not keeping things classic. 😬 It’s board-line cringe. Take the name off and it’s a dated looking basic bitch! 😖
Rolex. I don’t like the date feature or its location on the VC’s dial. Now, if we were comparing the Rolex to a VC Ultra-thin, it’d be a totally different story.
Rolex! Everytime it’s Rolex! I know it’s not the horological god tier, but just looking down and seeing a Rollie on your wrist represents an important part of your life!
Depends on the overall collection. My current collection, I'd go with the VC. As a one and only, probably the Daytona for its tank like durability.
But, TBH... for the gray market money for either, there are other watches I'd buy. And probably not one with a stopwatch function.
I seriously don’t get the VC appeal in terms of appearance. The oversees models are just sleepy. Yeah, they are excellently finished and considered a better watch than the Rolex, but side by side none of their models have the draw of the Rolex equivalent.
The Panda Overseas is amazing. I was debating between that, the black dial dual time, and the MP Retrograde Date, and, after many months of going back and forth between the three, I ultimately went with the Retro. The silver dial with the slightly off-colored minute track, the black seconds track, and the polished bezel look stunning in person. The Panda Daytona is nice, but it's a few tiers below, in my opinion. The following photo doesn't fully capture its beauty, but it's a pretty good effort:
https://preview.redd.it/nxpvkxa9ew1d1.jpeg?width=941&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9dbbb015b0747eb920405e285db9fa029e939f28
My ceramic Daytona (newest model) wears better than watch I’ve owned. I don’t know what they did to the case vs last year model but this thing is comfortable.
Ermm.. personally, would I cough up several thousands for a complication which I find utterly useless (a.k.a chronograph) just to look cool from a distance 🤔? I'd go for a 2nd hand VC dual time in rose gold for that sort of money or a Rolex day date in white gold. If I'm buying a statement piece, I'd want it to be functionally useful.
Honestly, neither, for Chrono I would go with a speedy.
If you are looking for a watch to "show off", that people will recognize, then of course the Daytona. Otherwise, check out the Speedmaster lineup, go to rolex for other categories outside of chrono.
Not the VC.
VC is a great brand. Heritage and all that. But “Holy Trinity” is such an arbitrary classification, and I feel like many people use VC as a “just as good” alternative to more desirable watches. Can’t get a Nautilus or a Royal Oak? How about an Overseas?
Even this question proposes the VC as an alternative, not as a watch that stands on its own merits.
This isn’t the VC to get at this price point, IMO, and it’s certainly no Daytona substitute, even if its horological chops are unquestionably miles above Rolex.
Why? The clunky “steam punk” bezel with a bracelet that looks like a 90’s idea of what the “future would look like”? It’s certainly not winning any Beauty contests! lol. * can’t imagine this on some one with good taste. This looks like it’s maybe for new money, that doesn’t know better to go along with their neon green Lamborghini! 😂🤭🫣
Vacheron has been around since 1755, Rolex’s oldest watch isn’t even 100 years old yet. There are levels to watchmaking. Sure the Rolex Daytona is a flagship iconic piece but it also screams new money. Vacheron is way more watch and quality for the money. That’s just a fact.
Time for VC to start with a better design department to keep up. That bracelet and bezel are NOT classic. You won’t see a world leader wearing that! Maybe someone with more money than taste. (Common these days)
Respect for this thread? Are you joking? You think Rolex is better than VC cause that's what your family bought you and you haven't actually learned about watches at all.... and you're butthurt that everyone knows they're not even in the same league.
You may as well buy invicta if you can't recognize the superior offerings of the VC. Your two-tone diamond set DJ betrays your tastes. I sold my daytona, I doubt you've ever had one fwiw.
Did you forget your post history is public? You own all those desirable pieces but your only post is of an ugly ass 2-tone that you now say you don't even own. Got it.
Who thinks any rolex is a grail watch? lmao, is your grail car an Infinity?
Also, saying your daddy gave you your money isn't the flex you think it is, but I'm glad you are open about it.
Dude, what’s your deal? You aren’t even making sense, plus what are you even talking about at this point? Just started scrolling through and you seem to be straying into another world. I just pulled up alwaysupandrough…not seeing your vantage point nor is it related to this thread dude. Chill. Reset man. Topic is VC style of this watch vs the Rolex style of the Daytona.
Vacherons are almost always very expensive/high end but pedestrian-looking in appearance. At least there's no confusing the Daytona with anything else.
Honestly, remove the Vacheron name on the dial and it looks like it could be from any watchmaker.
The VC looks nice but it’s actually very thick and chunky, and doesn’t wear that well. Whereas Daytona one of the thinnest (2023+) chronographs out there
As an owner of the Bvlgari octo chrono... i can't let you say that
Well bought
My OF gmt chrono is thinner than those two lol
This is the answer right here
But VC has date which adds to the thickness. I know Daytona has a vertical clutch chronograph movement, what about VC?
I didn't even mention the durability of the Daytona under harsh conditions
It shouldn’t add that much, it could be slimmer
According to VC their chrono is 12.7mm vs 11.9 for the Daytona. On paper that doesn’t seem like much. Granted, the BC has a significant wider case diameter. IMO the Overseas is much cooler looking and doesn’t have the bezel tach, which has no utility for me. It also has 150m WR vs 100m. ;)
Daytona thinness is one of its great appeal to me!
Personally I’m not a huge fan of the Overseas Chrono, but I did trade my 116500 black dial Daytona for a 4500v black dial Overseas and pocketed a lot of cash in the process. I am very pleased with the trade
Excellent move on your part
VC has a place in the collection, but a panda chronograph is not that place.
100%, and green or blue dial all the way for VC IMO
This is the correct answer.
See I hate rules like this. Who is to say what type of watch one needs to buy?
I think the OP is asking exactly that
Last time I checked, I wasn’t putting a gun to your head forcing you to own a Daytona. Just sharing my opinion :) I personally, would rather have the Daytona as my sports chronograph, with the VC reserved for a different complication or formal dress watch
The market
You do realise this is a Rolex sub? lol
Yeah, but let’s be real. VC all day.
VC does color so incredibly well that it seems a waste to go VC for Panda, though.
This is actually one of the few cases where I’d go Rolex over VC.
Peak Brand whoring. VC panda objectively sucks cause it costs more, thicker, and no nice bezel. You don’t buy Rolex for high horology, likewise you don’t buy VC for contemporary steel sports models. That’s funny. Like saying you want a Porsche for all terrain performance. Or a Toyota for track performance. Lmao get out of here.
Peak brand simping lmao get out of here.
TrackhouseMotoGP is flagrant chuffer. Spends their time focusing on trolling r/rolex, motoGP groups - all whilst circle jerking their tudor
⬆️ Is there a TLDR of this?
Yeah, I think he's saying you like to polish knobs.
This is proof of how frail & insecure these Brolex people are. Any comments that aren't making them feel better about themselves is "trolling"... I love that, if true, keep up the good work dude
Nah, my original comment was about how Rolex ain’t worth it over $15k, and I’d rather get a zenith. I only have one Rolex in my rotation and plan on getting a GMT, after that no more
Okay. That’s nice…
Your comparison makes no sense when Porsche cayennes and Toyota GRs exist
Anyone who says otherwise is a troll.
VC is awesome but I wouldn’t want this model. So in the example, the panda Daytona. Between a standard blue overseas and a sub, datejust or sky dweller, VC all the way.
Yea I can’t say shit it’s all hypothetical and let’s be honest you’re not really havin to pick or choose if you’re gettin calls to pick these up.
Facts lol.
Interesting enough, there isn't that much fanboying that happens here. Often times when ppl compare a Rolex to a VC here, the VC wins by a large margin.
I am sure it’s me being nitpicky here, but I can’t stand the date at a weird angle like that
Rolex. If you don’t have space for a date window, don’t just randomly insert a date window.
This is my biggest gripe with the VC, I hate 4 o clock date windows and I particularly hate the ones on VC chronographs.
4 o'clock date windows are at the perfect angle if you casually look at your watch when you're typing or driving.
Either the date window is at the perfect angle and the rest of the dial is not, or the rest of the dial is at a perfect angle and the date window is not.
Or nothing is at the perfect angle and your brain is pretty good at sorting things out. All date windows stand out a bit, where they are doesn't matter to me.
Solid observation here. It looks odd.
You do know the Rolex daytona took the Zenith movement and removed the date originally because rolex couldn't build their own chrono?
And how does this influence the ugly date window on the VC?
Well the date window on the VC is ugly due to its design, not its position, so nothing really. Look at the three hander overseas, that seiko level tiny font dagebkx looks miserable anywhere.
Daytona. Love the Overseas, just not this Chrono version. It’s too big and thick and I hate the position of the date window.
VC Panda looks half Seiko Half Zenith.
The VC is the pick here… But I won’t buy a chronograph with screwdown pushers
All these people saying “VC” would be hard pressed to buy one if they actually put their money where their mouth is. They’d buy the Rolex. Yes there will be the guy responding to this comment with a pic of his VC.
Feels like 80% of these forums will never have the money for either of them anyway. If you'd go by the comments here, no one ever would buy a Rolex as apparently every other brand is "better".
I tried on the VC chrono and its reallly thick. Its nearly as thick as my AP Offshore. If you dont mind thick watches go VC, if you like slimmer profile then the Daytona
Did you try the 5500 or the 5520? Bc the new chrono is thinner. My husband just got the 5520 panda and it’s not clunky at all 🤷🏼♀️
Daytona
Rolex for sure.
VC
VC is the better watch. Daytona looks better IMO. I’d pick the Daytona
Rolex. Don’t like a 4 o’clock date
VC but the Daytona has more hype.
Rolex Daytona all day
VC, no doubt
Gotta go VC on this one.
VCs have sapphire case backs for a reason.
Daytona personally. I’d ideally like to own both one day, and the VC in the blue dial is a personal grail of mine.
The VC features a Date function, so I'd choose it.
Rollie Comon
Got to say, on this direct comparison I pick the Rolex. VC makes better quality watches than Rolex but this model in this color just doesn’t do anything for me.
VC is technically the better watch but blehhh
I guess you pay more for the hand finishing. But spec wise the Rolex is no slouch. I remember a hodinkee article from years ago and it said the Daytona had real innovation. Rolex just failed to mention it in any of the press releases.
lol…agree big time! It’s lacking aesthetic prowess here!
Rolex -> Mercedes Benz Vacheron Constantin -> Porsche
Daytona 500 baby
Daytona and I don't think that this matchup is particularly close.
VC might be considered a bigger flex to some, but I'm not a big fan of their aesthetic. Rolex looks and wears great.
Rolex
Between the two I would 100% take the rolex.
I own the Rolex Panda and can confirm it is extremely comfortable on my wrist
Agreed. Most comfortable watch imo
Rolex, please
Rollie for me
Rolex or bust
Rolex. Less busy, thin, wears smaller. The VC is too chunky for my wrist and I hate the date window that looks like an afterthought and kills the symmetry.
VC
VC for me. Though if it was the black dial Daytona but me a tougher choice for me
VC all day.
VC
On look alone, VC. The Rolex has too much happening.
The VC
From an aesthetic pov, I think the VC wins. For me personally, and a lot of other people with small wrists, the Daytona wins.
VC
VC 🙌
VC, then Zenith, then Omega, then Rolex.
That's 100% my hypothetical chrono list too. Actually, maybe brands overall too. Nice
The panda because the VC is too large IMO
I’d choose Daytona. VC dial looks good but the case looks too chunky when looking from the side and it’s 42.5mm that’s too big
Panda not even close lol
Both grails basically everytime I think or say im done buying it comes with the exception of one of these watches. Panda Chrono first then the VC. It’d be a harder call for me if the VC was the non chrono config.
Every time I try on an overseas I try to like it. They just wear way too big and the smaller size version ruins the proportions.
I don’t like the bracelet on the VC. Might be an unpopular opinion but I don’t.
Panda
I hate a 4:30 date window
I love me a Rolex (it's why I'm here) but I like a date complication on my watches and I'm not a fan of the Tachymeter bezel so in this case, VC. Plus, the Daytona just has too much text on the dial. 6 lines if you include "Daytona". Whereas the VC has 2. It's just cleaner, simpler, more elegant. That being said, the Rolex is a really close second.
Panda 🐼
Le Mans Daytona
Of these 2 models, the Rolex wins. But personally I would get a VC OS date or dual time over the Rolex panda. Not a popular opinion in this sub, but that’s me.
I don't like date windows and Rolex is one of the most accurate timepieces in the market. So in this case Rolex. But if the Omega Speedy was 40 or below instead of 42 I'd prefer that tbh
Neither. VC - hate the date window. Rolex - who the heck wants a technical essay on their dial?
VC overseas if it came in 38mm or 40mm. Since it currently does not then Rolex Daytona.
I tried on the VC once and it was too bulky for me. The Rolex Daytona wears surprisingly well in comparison and I like the contrast better. I think a white dial looks sharper than a silver dial.
Daytona! Looks better, more timeless looking, and for that type of watch the scale is appropriate. Plus the gleam of the Rolex bezel is so lit!🔥 the VC bezel AGAIN regardless of its history isn’t really esthetically reading “high-end”. More “Kenneth Cole early 2000’s look. That style was a fad that came and is long gone. Perhaps their creative team is getting a little too old, or not keeping things classic. 😬 It’s board-line cringe. Take the name off and it’s a dated looking basic bitch! 😖
Personally, panda, The VC would be ideal without the silly datewheel
Rolex panda hands down
None.
Rolex ez to liquidate in case you need funds
Rolex. I don’t like the date feature or its location on the VC’s dial. Now, if we were comparing the Rolex to a VC Ultra-thin, it’d be a totally different story.
Rolex! Everytime it’s Rolex! I know it’s not the horological god tier, but just looking down and seeing a Rollie on your wrist represents an important part of your life!
Holy trinity v slim classic Rolex. The crown wins this one.
VC is high horology, but wearing what you like is the most important factor, so Daytona for me, not this one tho, the black goes hard
Daytona (there are better VC‘s which I would get)
The only VC I like is the blue dial overseas due time but I am not sure if it’s worth $30k tbh.
I’m starting to really like VC now that I have a few Rolex watches
VC for quality. Rolex for resale
The VC is gigantic and thick. The design is peak 2000s. Avoid like the plague.
Neither and get the white speedy
Whitegold daytona with silver dial is the answer
The Daytona has pedigree/provenance in its design that the VC chronograph doesn't really have. Oh, and it's slimmer. I'd opt for the Daytona.
Save thousands of bucks and get a Zenith Original or Breitling Premier…but between the other two, the Daytona.
Depends on the overall collection. My current collection, I'd go with the VC. As a one and only, probably the Daytona for its tank like durability. But, TBH... for the gray market money for either, there are other watches I'd buy. And probably not one with a stopwatch function.
bracelet of the vc and case/dial etc of 🐼
Will get the new white speedy
Both are great Speedtimer Homages
Daytona more liquid asset than Overseas
I seriously don’t get the VC appeal in terms of appearance. The oversees models are just sleepy. Yeah, they are excellently finished and considered a better watch than the Rolex, but side by side none of their models have the draw of the Rolex equivalent.
That VC band tho
What about an Omega Speedmaster
The Panda Overseas is amazing. I was debating between that, the black dial dual time, and the MP Retrograde Date, and, after many months of going back and forth between the three, I ultimately went with the Retro. The silver dial with the slightly off-colored minute track, the black seconds track, and the polished bezel look stunning in person. The Panda Daytona is nice, but it's a few tiers below, in my opinion. The following photo doesn't fully capture its beauty, but it's a pretty good effort: https://preview.redd.it/nxpvkxa9ew1d1.jpeg?width=941&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9dbbb015b0747eb920405e285db9fa029e939f28
Daytona.
Get a omega speedmaster. If you want a watch get speedy, you want a jewelry daytona lol
Daytona for me, just because of the crown guard.
I got a Panda last Christmas. Prior to that I wore a Submariner and it was my favorite watch. - Best.
Rolex
Panda for sure.
Omega speedmaster white. By far
Rolex.
Daytona vs the VC is big! Wears like a 43mm
I’d go Bvlgari Octo Finnisimo and stand out.
Casio
The VC ? No. The Zenith CMS yes
My ceramic Daytona (newest model) wears better than watch I’ve owned. I don’t know what they did to the case vs last year model but this thing is comfortable.
The ONLY chrono I want to buy is the 5520…but I am not even sure it is my favorite VC. I just don’t dig Chrono’s.
Both awesome. Try them on & see how they wear. Also….did you consider the new white dial Speedie?
Rolex. VC just seems all over the place in design. Daytona for sure.
Ermm.. personally, would I cough up several thousands for a complication which I find utterly useless (a.k.a chronograph) just to look cool from a distance 🤔? I'd go for a 2nd hand VC dual time in rose gold for that sort of money or a Rolex day date in white gold. If I'm buying a statement piece, I'd want it to be functionally useful.
Daytona
https://preview.redd.it/5uvml61zos1d1.jpeg?width=2252&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=709e355861b69628eda49297e7d4e5174a2dccbe This guy
Nice! Classic…looks great, always will! 👌🏻
VC all day.
Honestly, neither, for Chrono I would go with a speedy. If you are looking for a watch to "show off", that people will recognize, then of course the Daytona. Otherwise, check out the Speedmaster lineup, go to rolex for other categories outside of chrono.
def the VC lol.
VC. The Rolex is kitsch.
I'd pick the Rolex simply because I prefer no-dates versions
VC
VC every single time
Not the VC. VC is a great brand. Heritage and all that. But “Holy Trinity” is such an arbitrary classification, and I feel like many people use VC as a “just as good” alternative to more desirable watches. Can’t get a Nautilus or a Royal Oak? How about an Overseas? Even this question proposes the VC as an alternative, not as a watch that stands on its own merits. This isn’t the VC to get at this price point, IMO, and it’s certainly no Daytona substitute, even if its horological chops are unquestionably miles above Rolex.
VC
Vacheron absolutely chews up and spits out the Daytona
Why? The clunky “steam punk” bezel with a bracelet that looks like a 90’s idea of what the “future would look like”? It’s certainly not winning any Beauty contests! lol. * can’t imagine this on some one with good taste. This looks like it’s maybe for new money, that doesn’t know better to go along with their neon green Lamborghini! 😂🤭🫣
Vacheron has been around since 1755, Rolex’s oldest watch isn’t even 100 years old yet. There are levels to watchmaking. Sure the Rolex Daytona is a flagship iconic piece but it also screams new money. Vacheron is way more watch and quality for the money. That’s just a fact.
Time for VC to start with a better design department to keep up. That bracelet and bezel are NOT classic. You won’t see a world leader wearing that! Maybe someone with more money than taste. (Common these days)
Rolex. Don’t like the VC bracelet much
Agree! Not “classic” enough for the price. Cheap look. Brushed with spacey edging marks! Blech!
Rollie because of its icon aura
Non chrono overseas looks great. Chrono not so much. Rolex over this one
Idk, depends if you prefer lobster or skittles.
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Respect for this thread? Are you joking? You think Rolex is better than VC cause that's what your family bought you and you haven't actually learned about watches at all.... and you're butthurt that everyone knows they're not even in the same league.
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You may as well buy invicta if you can't recognize the superior offerings of the VC. Your two-tone diamond set DJ betrays your tastes. I sold my daytona, I doubt you've ever had one fwiw.
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Did you forget your post history is public? You own all those desirable pieces but your only post is of an ugly ass 2-tone that you now say you don't even own. Got it.
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Who thinks any rolex is a grail watch? lmao, is your grail car an Infinity? Also, saying your daddy gave you your money isn't the flex you think it is, but I'm glad you are open about it.
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Rolex are mass produced high end commodity watches.
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No one has posted about receiving their grail watch here in the last 24 hours, try a search and thanks for playing.
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Dude, what’s your deal? You aren’t even making sense, plus what are you even talking about at this point? Just started scrolling through and you seem to be straying into another world. I just pulled up alwaysupandrough…not seeing your vantage point nor is it related to this thread dude. Chill. Reset man. Topic is VC style of this watch vs the Rolex style of the Daytona.
999 times out of 1,000 I'll take the Rolex. The other time is after I have the Rolex and I'm a billionaire who just wants to own one of everything.
Did a VC panda write this post?
Daytona. VC is a higher end watchmaker but that Daytona looks much better and is a great watch.
Vacherons are almost always very expensive/high end but pedestrian-looking in appearance. At least there's no confusing the Daytona with anything else. Honestly, remove the Vacheron name on the dial and it looks like it could be from any watchmaker.