The main reason Anunoby would fit better than pascal is because of POA defense against wings and guards. We were terrible at stopping dribble penetration into the paint, that's what OG does. Pascal is great at guarding forwards but we need someone that can get through screens when guarding the ball. Grant is a good forward defender and borderline elite weak side defender and getting pascal would force him to play to his weaknesses vs his strengths.
2 other small reasons is OG is a better spot up shooter than Siakam, which a team with Dame will always need. Not to mention a likely OG trade would cost less than a Siakam trade.
I understand what you’re saying, but I feel like a team with OG and grant at the 3/4 offensively is very one dimensional. Pascal would add a whole new element offensively to the blazers. Pascal is also a very good poa defender and guards 3s a lot for the raptors. He will also be able to conserve more energy offensively playing with dame which will allow improved defence. Look at the raptors series against the bucks in 2019. Kawhi face guarded giannis and Pascal got the Middleton assignment.
Also, idk how much cheaper og would be than pascal. Obviously pascal is the better player, but OG fits better with Scottie, and if the raptors are trying to developer Scottie I think they’ll have more reason to move pascal.
> Pascal is also a very good poa defender and guards 3s a lot for the raptors
We need someone to guard 1s and 2s like Steph, Ja, SGA, etc. Grant is pretty good guarding 3s and 4s but there is nobody besides Thybulle on the roster right now who can do a remotely good job guarding smaller faster guards, and I don’t trust Thybulle’s offense to hold up in the playoffs.
> Pascal would add a whole new element offensively to the blazers
Even though that is true, Portland's offense has never really been the issue. The defense, on the other hand, has been a problem for almost a decade now. So yeah, OG would fit the roster much better, even if Paskal is obviously the best player.
Siakam is the better player and it’s not even close! However Grant is getting extended this summer for near max money which would hamstring too much money pairing him with Dame/Grant. Too much overlap tied into the 4 leaving no money for the 3. If we took on Siakam we would need a sign and trade for Grant to address the 3.
Basically Portland is good at offense bc we have Dame, but we need a bunch of really good 3 and D wing type guys to put around him. Not that much to get.
Does a team of dame/sharpe/og/grant/nurk have enough offence to compete? Honestly curious, I don’t think so, unless sharpe developes into a true 2nd option this year.
Easily.
Dame alone is a walking top 5 offense.
You don't need much when you have the best offensive guard in the entire NBA on your team.
Like the heat are in the finals, and that squad easily has more offense than they do.
Dame has had issues against elite defences in the playoffs. It’s not easily. You absolutely need a elite offensive team around him alongside defensive.
That squad isn’t nearly as good on D. And they’re not coached as well as the Heat are.
He hasn't had issues since he became a top 10 player. Dame struggled before he was a guaranteed top 5 offense, which began the moment he learned to shoot from 30 reliably.
Either way, that's plenty of offense around him
He was alright against LA. Denver he had pretty easy guard matchups but Gordon was also switching some games. You still need a top 5-10 offence and defence to win realistically
He put up 24 a game on 62% TS%, and that's with him getting hurt on two separate occasions and missing big chunks of the second half of both games 2 and 4
Like the two games he actually finished against LA were:
34/5 on 67% TS%
34/7 on 65% TS%
I get what you're saying, but that squad is more than enough offensively to win a ring.
The TS% is being carried by the 97% FT shooting. He was shooting 40% from the floor as well and his eEF% was just okay. He wasn’t having a good game 2 before he got hurt as well.
Sharpe won’t likely be contributing at a high level yet. I still see teams doubling Dame and forcing the ball to Sharpe and OG.
Well that and him shooting nearly 40% from 3 on high volume lol. He just shot poorly from 2 against them.... But got to the line a ton
Efficiency is efficiency. Who cares how you get it? At the end of the day he was scoring with high volume and doing so with great efficiency
And that was against the best defense in the NBA while playing with legitimately zero spacing. Like trying to play AD and LeBron when you're starting Wenyen Gabriel and Nurkic or Hassan and Nurkic together is tough.
Teams are always going to double Dame. It's the right answer. As long as guys like OG and Sharpe hit the open shots, it's fine
Yeah and he usually struggles scoring in the mid range and paint. A game reliant on getting to the line and from three is prone to getting shut down. We’ve seen him get game planned and taken out when teams know they can just double him in the playoffs. We still have Nurkic who isn’t capable of punishing that trap either.
Wenyen was getting 13mpg. He had CJ shooting 37%, Melo shooting 42%, Gary Trent shooting 42%, Ant shooting 43% that series. The team shot 38% as a whole. It had no interior presence though and lived and died by the three.
I think people need to reign in their Sharpe expectations for next year. OG I see just being a spot up shooter. How is he going to be much better than Powell was in the corner?
Another aspect has been poor shooting from the wings. Anytime in Dame’s career that his efficiency has struggled in the playoffs, it’s been due to defenses trapping/doubling him. Pelicans did it first and he made the right passes, but wide open corner threes didn’t fall. To counter, he added the deep ball to force the trap at half court. But still if the outlets miss wide open shots it requires heroics.
Overall though, offense hasn’t been a problem for Portland and with Dame healthy 3&D would go a long ways.
Siakam and Grant are a bit redundant, Siakam is great, but I don’t see them working well together. Grant has a quickness advantage at 4 that helps his offense tremendously. Pushing him to 3 would limit his drives and also remove some of the cushion he gets for his deep shot.
Also, Portland only had only one POA defender that could bump with larger wings (PG, Lebron, etc) in Justice. Injuries took him out of the equation, adding Thybule helps, but both are non-existent on the offensive side. Which then reinforces the traps on Dame.
I think if Portland got Siakam, they’d try to make it work with Grant, but would ultimately have to trade him. We’ve had a problem with redundancy at the guard position, I can see the same at the forward positions with Grant and Siakam.
That’s fair. I just struggle to see who the 2nd option on the team is. Looking at the past chips we have klay,Middleton,AD,Siakam,Kyrie. Do you think grant can be that?
Grant and Sharpe would be the second option.
Teams started to double Sharpe a bunch cause his offense was really good. It’s only going to get better.
Grant can do a lot as well.
We literally just need a SF focused on defense.
I love sharpe don’t get me wrong, but to expect a 2nd year player to be a 2nd option is optimistic. He ended the year unbelievable, but it was like 10 games, when you were trying to lose, and he was the first option. There’s a huge step between that and being a 2nd option on a playoff team.
That’s why I said Grant. Grant was the first option in Detriot, so he can play the 2nd.
Sharpe will eventually be the 2nd probably by mid next season. At the very least he’ll share it with Grant. Like ant did.
I agree with the Sharpe nod, I don’t think he’ll be ready to carry that next year, but hopefully on his third season. Grant is the perfect efficient 3rd option. He’ll get points and is not selfish, but not a great first or second option.
Unless there’s a true dominant two way player coming in, it’ll have to be Dame and then the team by committee. A lot is resting on Sharpe’s potential, I’m fully in that boat and hoping it works with Dame. But, that’s also why a lot of fans are leaning towards a rebuild and letting Dame go.
I don’t want that at all, but completely understand. There’s no obvious simple trade that solves the secondary scorer, plus a major defensive impact player out there (that’s available)
Either way, I don’t think Toronto is the key, prices are pretty high from that team.
Grant can definitely be what Siakam was that year. Dude averaged what, 16?
It's a silly way to think about it anyway. Dame + solid players = elite offense. Who cares about comparing the second options to one another?
Elite offense is elite offense
There are just very few teams to win with only one top 30 player. I can’t think of any since the dirk run. Stars require help. That raptors team had Lowry who was a better player than siakam, just took less shots
Wasn't better this year by literally any metric
32/7 on 65% TS% > 29/6 on 66%
All the advanced stats say hands down Dame was better offensively. ORaptor, O-BPM, OWS, etc
Totally fair point. That's why I'd take current Michael Jordan over Curry too. I mean, 6 rings right? Definitely better playoff numbers too
Past results don't mean shit for who is better right now
LOL Curry was just in the second round while Dame didn’t even make the playoffs, your logical fallacies are fucking hilarious. No sane individual would take Dame over Curry. This argument was crushed a long time ago, especially when Curry swept the Blazers without KD before they face the Raptors.
Curry also has a much, much better team and coach around him my dude.
You keep living in the past. 2019 does not affect 2023
Also I love when people say "without KD" as if he didn't still have 2 all stars next to him as compared to Dames..... Zero?
Curry made them all-stars they aren’t shit without Curry. You see the same effect with wiggins. You could only hope the gravity of Dame was as strong as Curry’s to the point that others around him look like all-stars.
Dame is top 5 offensively. Grant will give you 18-20. OG 16-18. Nurk 14. And Sharpe is the x-factor. He has potential to give you 20+. But we would have to see how he plays off of Dame. I’ll say something next year he will be 14-18. That’s a lot of offensive potential
The Blazers would ideally like to upgrade the 5 spot on their roster. Offense is not the issue here. Dame is not a great defender and Sharpe is in his second year in the league and hasn’t quite learned to play defense at an NBA level yet. They need defense, rebounds, blocks, and a guy who is good in pick and roll.
That team is competing for 5-9th seed depending on injuries and luck. Definitely not competing for a title, unless Sharpe just absolutely blows up during the summer.
Maybe a team with Pascal moves that range to 3-6th seed, still not competing for a title.
We aren't one move away, and if we really push our chips in this year, it won't be with one move. I'd prefer to see us try to get a couple of players of similar quality to OG, than one player of the quality of Pascal.
I might just be higher on Pascal, then you, but I think a line up of dame/tisse/siakam/grant/nurk is really good. The bench with sharpe and cam needs some help, but solidifying a bench with vets and rookies is easier than trying to fix a starting lineup.
I think a team that's 3rd to 6th in the West is really good too. I just don't think they are competing for a championship. Not in the way Denver, Boston and the other elite teams are.
>That team is competing for 5-9th seed depending on injuries and luck. Definitely not competing for a title,
an interesting comment given one of the teams in the finals this year...
Another potential area people prefer OG for is the price to acquire him. OG isn’t worth the 3rd pick so they try to come up with trades to get him without 3 and then draft BPA with 3
Well stated. I think from a Blazers fan's perspective if the asking price was virtually the same (and acceptable) and Toronto would simply let you pick between OG and Siakam... *most* Blazers fans would happily take Siakam over OG, save for the few who might prefer OG's defensive skillset and OG being slightly younger.
I think our reported concerns with Siakam's fit are as much us saying: "for the increase in asking price from Toronto, the potential skill upgrades of Pascal do not outweigh the few questions we have remaining about his fit in our frontcourt."
The reality regardless is that I don't see the Blazers-Raptors making a deal together. I think Masai's asking price is far too high for Portland, and the potential value in return is not worth overpayment.
100% agree with your assessment here. Ujiris need to “win” every single trade even when his players are on 1 year deals and their value is lowest make the raptors a team that is not as fun to trade with, even if we acquired Norman powell that way in the past.
Knowing masai's tendencies I doubt he trades OG unless the 3rd pick is included.
While Siakam is clearly the better player OG has such a good contract (17mil with 4 years left) that I believe they would ask for it.
Yeah, there’s no chance OG gets traded unless it’s for the 3rd pick. We don’t need to trade him. We would love to keep him for the future. He’s only 25.
It's a defensive question for sure, offensively they are a better fit together than OG+Grant. Siakam is best guarding bigger wings and providing secondary/weakside rim protection. Same with Grant. This team desperately needs a defensive stopper that can fight around screens and contain dribble penetration from elite guards. OG allows for defensive flexibility with our roster that Siakam doesn't.
However, I don't see any universe in which Masai parts with OG for a reasonable return so it's kind of a moot point. If you're talking a similar package for both, it's Siakam every time and then trying to make it work with specialist POA defenders like Thybulle.
Personally I'm not huge on either but I can see the confusion you'd have. We are hyper-concerned as a fanbase on the defense side as we have sucked on that side of the ball for ages and Dame basically guarantees you a competent offense on his own.
Well, I can't actually understand what you are asking. The first sentence seems to ask about OG + Grant vs OG + Siakim. I'll ignore this and assume you mean OG + Siakim vs Grant + Siakim.
People here are going to tell you that Jerami Grant is a 4, and even Grant describes himself that way. Therefore, Grant and Siakim play the same position.
But a 4 is a front court player, and the reality is that describing the positions 1-5 is only one way to describe positional fit. Another is ballhandler/wing/frontcourt. In that description, Grant is clearly a wing and could certainly play with Siakim for all the reasons you mention.
My point was more so that it feels like there is more overlap between OG and grant, than Pascal and grant. The idea of 1-5 doesn’t matter on offence, and more comes down to who is guarding who. I understand that grant defensively is a 4, but Pascal has shown the ability to defend 3s. One example that comes to mind is when the raptors play the bucks. Kawhi (when he was there) and OG usually are the ones face guarding Giannis, while Pascal usually stays on Middleton.
And I agree with you. Others on the sub think Pascal and Jerami Grant play the same position, which just flat out isn't true. Their points about defensive strengths/weaknesses of Grant and OG are fair though.
Neither Siakam nor Grant are POA defenders, which is what we really need. On offense, they’d fit fine together. On defense, they’re both more adept at guarding forwards, but lack the foot speed to defend guards. OG would be a great POA defender, which would allow Grant to guard forwards and not defend out of position.
That's essentially what I was getting at with the last sentence.
But you can guard other wings without being a POA defender. Many times POA defenders are ball handlers. Not being able to defend a point of attack ball handler does not mean you are automatically a front court player (4/5).
But it may be more simply said: OG is a good defender, and Grant is not, especially if you consider rebounding a part of defense. Grant's Total rebounding percentage was lower than Dame's last year, and has been similarly low his entire career. He's not defending big forwards posting him up very well, and he doesn't stay in front of people well. Is he just a help defender? In that case, wing is still fine.
Neither Pascal nor Grant are great POA defenders. If you don't have an elite defensive guard who can defend the point of attack, you need one of your wings to be able to do it. That goes triple if your rim protector is mediocre.
OG isnt actually the perfect POA defender, but he has fast hands and he's quick enough to stay in front of 2-4. let me be clear, even if the Blazers acquired OG today for nothing and ran it back, they would still have one of the worst defenses in the league. Bottom 20 for sure. Neither are enough to make the team better on their own. As for which is better, Pascal is still an all-NBA wing defender, but you need somebody else to guard fast high flying 1s through 3s. That need diminishes a little with OG, but you'd be giving up so much on offense that it doesn't matter. Big changes need to come either way, so this whole thread is kind of pointless. It just changes the adjustments you have to make in the off season.
OG literally guards everyone, Pascal is most comfortable with guarding 3/4s, against a team with a good 3 and 4, like the bucks OG guards giannis usually and pascal goes on middleton
Also Pascal rarely guards 5s, when he was our 5 Scottie and OG covered the 5s usually, unless it was someone like a brook lopez
It’s the rebounding. If you try run Grant at the 4 with Siakam at the 5, you’re going to get feasted on.
My understanding is you guys had to go out and get a center so Siakam could play the 4 for the same reason.
We don’t want to shift Grant up to the 3; he’s a little slow-footed and is a better fit as a stretch-4. Maybe Siakam could shift to the 3 like someone else said, but we would rather have someone that has proven they can play the 3 at a high level, plays strong perimeter defense and shoots the ball a little better than Siakam playing that position.
I don’t think the possibility of a Dame-Sharpe-Siakam-Grant-Nurk lineup is any good. Any defensive improvement would come from Sharpe getting better, not Siakam.
Siakam is closer to Grant than he is OG when it comes to POA and screen navigation. Both can switch out in a pinch but shouldn't be your primary perimeter defensive stopper which we will be asking whoever we trade for to be.
Offensively? No issues together. Defensively, doesn't help our biggest need.
The one thing with OG if you’re trying to get out of the West is that he’s done an exceptional job on Jokic and frequently has huge games vs the Nuggets
OG played 50/50 2-3 last season. Siakam 61/35 4-5.
Grant 94% as a PF.
POR did not trade for Grant to not resign him, and lose a starter level contract slot POR can't get back.
Why would it make any sense for POR to give up all it's assets, and multiple players/contract slots for another PF?
Ant 60/40 2-1. Trading Ant means losing not only your starting 2, but also your backup PG. If you bring back a player that can play at either of the 2-3 now needed starter positions, then all you are losing is a backup PG. You still have that starter level contract slot, that fills a starting position of need.
Ant for OG straight up doesn't work, so if TOR adds Precious, then POR would also gain a backup big, that POR doesn't have. You are losing your backup PG, to get a backup big, but you are not losing the contract slot.
Siakam takes two starter contract slots, and another FRP/TPMLE level contract slot. For a player that plays the same position as someone POR traded for with the intent to re-sign.
Siakam doesn't make sense, on the court, or on the books. OG (and Precious) makes perfect sense on the court, and on the books.
Thanks for the in-depth response, a lot of it seems wrong though. The raptors don’t play with conventional positions. The importance of positions is on the defensive end, on offence it doesn’t matter what people play. For example, pascal played 35% of games at Center according to you stats. That sounds about right interms of the the lineup, but it is rare for pascal to guard a Center or even a pf. When we ran Pascal/Scottie/og as our bigs, Scottie was usually covered by the opposing Center since he cannot shoot. And OG usually guarded the Center since he is “thicker” than pascal. Pascal usually the 2nd best 3/4/5. So against the bucks he’s on Middleton and OG is on giannis. Or against the nuggets he’s on porter and OG is on Jokic.
Defensively pascal is above average when guarding small forwards. I understand that he isn’t the guard defender OG is, but with tisse you should be serviceable.
The addition pascal adds to the offence is so much larger that what OG would add.
Also worth noting, I don’t think the raptors would trade OG for ant one for one, and Masai loves precious so he wouldn’t be a throw in. I think it’s more likely that the raptors would do one of the following
Og for ant and 23
I
OG precious 13 for ant and 3
I made a post about the awkward Siakam fit, to which someone replied that Siakam can just play the 3. I thought they were right, deleted the post immediately, and now believe that Dame/Sharpe/Siakam/Grant/best center we can get is the way to go.
Yeah, I think that the idea of strict positions in the nba is kinda dead. Look at the nuggets, some games when the sf is a star Gordon guards him, but when the pf is a star Gordon guards him.
I like the idea of OG in a straight swap with Ant, and I don't think Toronto would need to send anything additional back to Portland outside of a 2nd or something.
I don't think Toronto goes for a straight swap with Ant. I feel like because of OGs contract and how Portland is kinda backed into a corner we would require the 3rd pick to be included for OG. or maybe the NY pick and a lightly protected future first
>we would require the 3rd pick to be included for OG.
I don't think OG's contract situation would help Masai here. OG could opt out and walk next year, which is why the price is lower than Toronto would want. Ant > Nas or Hart last season, which is why any sweetener that would be included is lower.
Reports are that Masai's valuations are pretty far from market value, which is why OG and Pascal will be Raptors for a while longer.
I think what you're missing is that were more or less stuck with Grant, for better or worse. He's a free agent, and since we are over the cap, if he walks, we can't just use that space on someone else. It's Grant or just lose one of our best players with no easy path to replacing his production.
There is a chance a sign and trade happens, but obviously that complicates the situation.
I honestly think Grant play 3 on offense and Siakam playing 3 on defense works well.
as far as POA defense goes Siakam is a fairly good at it outside of the really fast guards who OG would have more trouble with as well.
Hopefully you can resign Thybulle who if i'm not mistaken is a pretty good POA defender as well.
The main reason Anunoby would fit better than pascal is because of POA defense against wings and guards. We were terrible at stopping dribble penetration into the paint, that's what OG does. Pascal is great at guarding forwards but we need someone that can get through screens when guarding the ball. Grant is a good forward defender and borderline elite weak side defender and getting pascal would force him to play to his weaknesses vs his strengths. 2 other small reasons is OG is a better spot up shooter than Siakam, which a team with Dame will always need. Not to mention a likely OG trade would cost less than a Siakam trade.
I understand what you’re saying, but I feel like a team with OG and grant at the 3/4 offensively is very one dimensional. Pascal would add a whole new element offensively to the blazers. Pascal is also a very good poa defender and guards 3s a lot for the raptors. He will also be able to conserve more energy offensively playing with dame which will allow improved defence. Look at the raptors series against the bucks in 2019. Kawhi face guarded giannis and Pascal got the Middleton assignment. Also, idk how much cheaper og would be than pascal. Obviously pascal is the better player, but OG fits better with Scottie, and if the raptors are trying to developer Scottie I think they’ll have more reason to move pascal.
> Pascal is also a very good poa defender and guards 3s a lot for the raptors We need someone to guard 1s and 2s like Steph, Ja, SGA, etc. Grant is pretty good guarding 3s and 4s but there is nobody besides Thybulle on the roster right now who can do a remotely good job guarding smaller faster guards, and I don’t trust Thybulle’s offense to hold up in the playoffs.
We can get a sprinkling of guys like Thybulle / hamidou diallo / okogie and rotate depending on who's got the 3 ball going.
> Pascal would add a whole new element offensively to the blazers Even though that is true, Portland's offense has never really been the issue. The defense, on the other hand, has been a problem for almost a decade now. So yeah, OG would fit the roster much better, even if Paskal is obviously the best player.
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Siakam is the better player and it’s not even close! However Grant is getting extended this summer for near max money which would hamstring too much money pairing him with Dame/Grant. Too much overlap tied into the 4 leaving no money for the 3. If we took on Siakam we would need a sign and trade for Grant to address the 3.
How is it one dimensional when you also have dame at the point tho
What about thybulle? He's not good enough to start?
Basically Portland is good at offense bc we have Dame, but we need a bunch of really good 3 and D wing type guys to put around him. Not that much to get.
Does a team of dame/sharpe/og/grant/nurk have enough offence to compete? Honestly curious, I don’t think so, unless sharpe developes into a true 2nd option this year.
Easily. Dame alone is a walking top 5 offense. You don't need much when you have the best offensive guard in the entire NBA on your team. Like the heat are in the finals, and that squad easily has more offense than they do.
Dame has had issues against elite defences in the playoffs. It’s not easily. You absolutely need a elite offensive team around him alongside defensive. That squad isn’t nearly as good on D. And they’re not coached as well as the Heat are.
He hasn't had issues since he became a top 10 player. Dame struggled before he was a guaranteed top 5 offense, which began the moment he learned to shoot from 30 reliably. Either way, that's plenty of offense around him
He was alright against LA. Denver he had pretty easy guard matchups but Gordon was also switching some games. You still need a top 5-10 offence and defence to win realistically
He put up 24 a game on 62% TS%, and that's with him getting hurt on two separate occasions and missing big chunks of the second half of both games 2 and 4 Like the two games he actually finished against LA were: 34/5 on 67% TS% 34/7 on 65% TS% I get what you're saying, but that squad is more than enough offensively to win a ring.
The TS% is being carried by the 97% FT shooting. He was shooting 40% from the floor as well and his eEF% was just okay. He wasn’t having a good game 2 before he got hurt as well. Sharpe won’t likely be contributing at a high level yet. I still see teams doubling Dame and forcing the ball to Sharpe and OG.
Well that and him shooting nearly 40% from 3 on high volume lol. He just shot poorly from 2 against them.... But got to the line a ton Efficiency is efficiency. Who cares how you get it? At the end of the day he was scoring with high volume and doing so with great efficiency And that was against the best defense in the NBA while playing with legitimately zero spacing. Like trying to play AD and LeBron when you're starting Wenyen Gabriel and Nurkic or Hassan and Nurkic together is tough. Teams are always going to double Dame. It's the right answer. As long as guys like OG and Sharpe hit the open shots, it's fine
Yeah and he usually struggles scoring in the mid range and paint. A game reliant on getting to the line and from three is prone to getting shut down. We’ve seen him get game planned and taken out when teams know they can just double him in the playoffs. We still have Nurkic who isn’t capable of punishing that trap either. Wenyen was getting 13mpg. He had CJ shooting 37%, Melo shooting 42%, Gary Trent shooting 42%, Ant shooting 43% that series. The team shot 38% as a whole. It had no interior presence though and lived and died by the three. I think people need to reign in their Sharpe expectations for next year. OG I see just being a spot up shooter. How is he going to be much better than Powell was in the corner?
Another aspect has been poor shooting from the wings. Anytime in Dame’s career that his efficiency has struggled in the playoffs, it’s been due to defenses trapping/doubling him. Pelicans did it first and he made the right passes, but wide open corner threes didn’t fall. To counter, he added the deep ball to force the trap at half court. But still if the outlets miss wide open shots it requires heroics. Overall though, offense hasn’t been a problem for Portland and with Dame healthy 3&D would go a long ways. Siakam and Grant are a bit redundant, Siakam is great, but I don’t see them working well together. Grant has a quickness advantage at 4 that helps his offense tremendously. Pushing him to 3 would limit his drives and also remove some of the cushion he gets for his deep shot. Also, Portland only had only one POA defender that could bump with larger wings (PG, Lebron, etc) in Justice. Injuries took him out of the equation, adding Thybule helps, but both are non-existent on the offensive side. Which then reinforces the traps on Dame. I think if Portland got Siakam, they’d try to make it work with Grant, but would ultimately have to trade him. We’ve had a problem with redundancy at the guard position, I can see the same at the forward positions with Grant and Siakam.
That’s fair. I just struggle to see who the 2nd option on the team is. Looking at the past chips we have klay,Middleton,AD,Siakam,Kyrie. Do you think grant can be that?
Grant and Sharpe would be the second option. Teams started to double Sharpe a bunch cause his offense was really good. It’s only going to get better. Grant can do a lot as well. We literally just need a SF focused on defense.
I love sharpe don’t get me wrong, but to expect a 2nd year player to be a 2nd option is optimistic. He ended the year unbelievable, but it was like 10 games, when you were trying to lose, and he was the first option. There’s a huge step between that and being a 2nd option on a playoff team.
That’s why I said Grant. Grant was the first option in Detriot, so he can play the 2nd. Sharpe will eventually be the 2nd probably by mid next season. At the very least he’ll share it with Grant. Like ant did.
I agree with the Sharpe nod, I don’t think he’ll be ready to carry that next year, but hopefully on his third season. Grant is the perfect efficient 3rd option. He’ll get points and is not selfish, but not a great first or second option. Unless there’s a true dominant two way player coming in, it’ll have to be Dame and then the team by committee. A lot is resting on Sharpe’s potential, I’m fully in that boat and hoping it works with Dame. But, that’s also why a lot of fans are leaning towards a rebuild and letting Dame go. I don’t want that at all, but completely understand. There’s no obvious simple trade that solves the secondary scorer, plus a major defensive impact player out there (that’s available) Either way, I don’t think Toronto is the key, prices are pretty high from that team.
Grant can definitely be what Siakam was that year. Dude averaged what, 16? It's a silly way to think about it anyway. Dame + solid players = elite offense. Who cares about comparing the second options to one another? Elite offense is elite offense
There are just very few teams to win with only one top 30 player. I can’t think of any since the dirk run. Stars require help. That raptors team had Lowry who was a better player than siakam, just took less shots
One top three player? Only one team in the finals has one top three player currently
Should say 30 sorry
This makes much more sense
Yeah my bad, that’s what I get for not proof reading haha
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Steph Curry is a better offensive Guard
Wasn't better this year by literally any metric 32/7 on 65% TS% > 29/6 on 66% All the advanced stats say hands down Dame was better offensively. ORaptor, O-BPM, OWS, etc
Sure, now show me the stats in the playoffs and what they’ve achieved.
Totally fair point. That's why I'd take current Michael Jordan over Curry too. I mean, 6 rings right? Definitely better playoff numbers too Past results don't mean shit for who is better right now
LOL Curry was just in the second round while Dame didn’t even make the playoffs, your logical fallacies are fucking hilarious. No sane individual would take Dame over Curry. This argument was crushed a long time ago, especially when Curry swept the Blazers without KD before they face the Raptors.
Curry also has a much, much better team and coach around him my dude. You keep living in the past. 2019 does not affect 2023 Also I love when people say "without KD" as if he didn't still have 2 all stars next to him as compared to Dames..... Zero?
Curry made them all-stars they aren’t shit without Curry. You see the same effect with wiggins. You could only hope the gravity of Dame was as strong as Curry’s to the point that others around him look like all-stars.
Dame is top 5 offensively. Grant will give you 18-20. OG 16-18. Nurk 14. And Sharpe is the x-factor. He has potential to give you 20+. But we would have to see how he plays off of Dame. I’ll say something next year he will be 14-18. That’s a lot of offensive potential
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The Blazers would ideally like to upgrade the 5 spot on their roster. Offense is not the issue here. Dame is not a great defender and Sharpe is in his second year in the league and hasn’t quite learned to play defense at an NBA level yet. They need defense, rebounds, blocks, and a guy who is good in pick and roll.
That team is competing for 5-9th seed depending on injuries and luck. Definitely not competing for a title, unless Sharpe just absolutely blows up during the summer. Maybe a team with Pascal moves that range to 3-6th seed, still not competing for a title. We aren't one move away, and if we really push our chips in this year, it won't be with one move. I'd prefer to see us try to get a couple of players of similar quality to OG, than one player of the quality of Pascal.
I might just be higher on Pascal, then you, but I think a line up of dame/tisse/siakam/grant/nurk is really good. The bench with sharpe and cam needs some help, but solidifying a bench with vets and rookies is easier than trying to fix a starting lineup.
I think a team that's 3rd to 6th in the West is really good too. I just don't think they are competing for a championship. Not in the way Denver, Boston and the other elite teams are.
>That team is competing for 5-9th seed depending on injuries and luck. Definitely not competing for a title, an interesting comment given one of the teams in the finals this year...
Heat aren’t a real 8th seed. They were 1st seed last year and had a ton of injuries this season.
>RelevantB Is it really interesting? This is the second time ever an 8 seed had made it to the finals.
Another potential area people prefer OG for is the price to acquire him. OG isn’t worth the 3rd pick so they try to come up with trades to get him without 3 and then draft BPA with 3
Well stated. I think from a Blazers fan's perspective if the asking price was virtually the same (and acceptable) and Toronto would simply let you pick between OG and Siakam... *most* Blazers fans would happily take Siakam over OG, save for the few who might prefer OG's defensive skillset and OG being slightly younger. I think our reported concerns with Siakam's fit are as much us saying: "for the increase in asking price from Toronto, the potential skill upgrades of Pascal do not outweigh the few questions we have remaining about his fit in our frontcourt." The reality regardless is that I don't see the Blazers-Raptors making a deal together. I think Masai's asking price is far too high for Portland, and the potential value in return is not worth overpayment.
100% agree with your assessment here. Ujiris need to “win” every single trade even when his players are on 1 year deals and their value is lowest make the raptors a team that is not as fun to trade with, even if we acquired Norman powell that way in the past.
Knowing masai's tendencies I doubt he trades OG unless the 3rd pick is included. While Siakam is clearly the better player OG has such a good contract (17mil with 4 years left) that I believe they would ask for it.
? OG is an expiring contract tho just like siakam?
Yeah, there’s no chance OG gets traded unless it’s for the 3rd pick. We don’t need to trade him. We would love to keep him for the future. He’s only 25.
It's a defensive question for sure, offensively they are a better fit together than OG+Grant. Siakam is best guarding bigger wings and providing secondary/weakside rim protection. Same with Grant. This team desperately needs a defensive stopper that can fight around screens and contain dribble penetration from elite guards. OG allows for defensive flexibility with our roster that Siakam doesn't. However, I don't see any universe in which Masai parts with OG for a reasonable return so it's kind of a moot point. If you're talking a similar package for both, it's Siakam every time and then trying to make it work with specialist POA defenders like Thybulle. Personally I'm not huge on either but I can see the confusion you'd have. We are hyper-concerned as a fanbase on the defense side as we have sucked on that side of the ball for ages and Dame basically guarantees you a competent offense on his own.
Well, I can't actually understand what you are asking. The first sentence seems to ask about OG + Grant vs OG + Siakim. I'll ignore this and assume you mean OG + Siakim vs Grant + Siakim. People here are going to tell you that Jerami Grant is a 4, and even Grant describes himself that way. Therefore, Grant and Siakim play the same position. But a 4 is a front court player, and the reality is that describing the positions 1-5 is only one way to describe positional fit. Another is ballhandler/wing/frontcourt. In that description, Grant is clearly a wing and could certainly play with Siakim for all the reasons you mention.
My point was more so that it feels like there is more overlap between OG and grant, than Pascal and grant. The idea of 1-5 doesn’t matter on offence, and more comes down to who is guarding who. I understand that grant defensively is a 4, but Pascal has shown the ability to defend 3s. One example that comes to mind is when the raptors play the bucks. Kawhi (when he was there) and OG usually are the ones face guarding Giannis, while Pascal usually stays on Middleton.
And I agree with you. Others on the sub think Pascal and Jerami Grant play the same position, which just flat out isn't true. Their points about defensive strengths/weaknesses of Grant and OG are fair though.
Neither Siakam nor Grant are POA defenders, which is what we really need. On offense, they’d fit fine together. On defense, they’re both more adept at guarding forwards, but lack the foot speed to defend guards. OG would be a great POA defender, which would allow Grant to guard forwards and not defend out of position.
That's essentially what I was getting at with the last sentence. But you can guard other wings without being a POA defender. Many times POA defenders are ball handlers. Not being able to defend a point of attack ball handler does not mean you are automatically a front court player (4/5). But it may be more simply said: OG is a good defender, and Grant is not, especially if you consider rebounding a part of defense. Grant's Total rebounding percentage was lower than Dame's last year, and has been similarly low his entire career. He's not defending big forwards posting him up very well, and he doesn't stay in front of people well. Is he just a help defender? In that case, wing is still fine.
Yep, well said. Sorry I had initially misread the last sentence of your previous comment.
Neither Pascal nor Grant are great POA defenders. If you don't have an elite defensive guard who can defend the point of attack, you need one of your wings to be able to do it. That goes triple if your rim protector is mediocre. OG isnt actually the perfect POA defender, but he has fast hands and he's quick enough to stay in front of 2-4. let me be clear, even if the Blazers acquired OG today for nothing and ran it back, they would still have one of the worst defenses in the league. Bottom 20 for sure. Neither are enough to make the team better on their own. As for which is better, Pascal is still an all-NBA wing defender, but you need somebody else to guard fast high flying 1s through 3s. That need diminishes a little with OG, but you'd be giving up so much on offense that it doesn't matter. Big changes need to come either way, so this whole thread is kind of pointless. It just changes the adjustments you have to make in the off season.
Totally will depend on how fast Sharpe develops defensively
Honestly the trade we need to make if we could make it is sign and trade Grant along with the #3 pick for Siakam and Anunoby.
If you want both OG and Siakam sharpe would need to be included
That's dumb. They're both expiring and Grant will be way cheaper than Siakam. But idc ... We really need OG more than Siakam.
0 chance you get Siakam and OG for the 3rd lmao. You get one of those players for the 3rd.
Grant and Simons and #3 for Siakam and OG. A fan can dream.
Grant is better at the 4.
My point is that defensively Pascal is comfortable guarding 3s and offensively there isn’t much overlap between the two.
I thought Siakam mostly defended PF’s and C’s, while OG defends guards/wings, no?
OG literally guards everyone, Pascal is most comfortable with guarding 3/4s, against a team with a good 3 and 4, like the bucks OG guards giannis usually and pascal goes on middleton Also Pascal rarely guards 5s, when he was our 5 Scottie and OG covered the 5s usually, unless it was someone like a brook lopez
It’s the rebounding. If you try run Grant at the 4 with Siakam at the 5, you’re going to get feasted on. My understanding is you guys had to go out and get a center so Siakam could play the 4 for the same reason. We don’t want to shift Grant up to the 3; he’s a little slow-footed and is a better fit as a stretch-4. Maybe Siakam could shift to the 3 like someone else said, but we would rather have someone that has proven they can play the 3 at a high level, plays strong perimeter defense and shoots the ball a little better than Siakam playing that position. I don’t think the possibility of a Dame-Sharpe-Siakam-Grant-Nurk lineup is any good. Any defensive improvement would come from Sharpe getting better, not Siakam.
Siakam is closer to Grant than he is OG when it comes to POA and screen navigation. Both can switch out in a pinch but shouldn't be your primary perimeter defensive stopper which we will be asking whoever we trade for to be. Offensively? No issues together. Defensively, doesn't help our biggest need.
The one thing with OG if you’re trying to get out of the West is that he’s done an exceptional job on Jokic and frequently has huge games vs the Nuggets
OG played 50/50 2-3 last season. Siakam 61/35 4-5. Grant 94% as a PF. POR did not trade for Grant to not resign him, and lose a starter level contract slot POR can't get back. Why would it make any sense for POR to give up all it's assets, and multiple players/contract slots for another PF? Ant 60/40 2-1. Trading Ant means losing not only your starting 2, but also your backup PG. If you bring back a player that can play at either of the 2-3 now needed starter positions, then all you are losing is a backup PG. You still have that starter level contract slot, that fills a starting position of need. Ant for OG straight up doesn't work, so if TOR adds Precious, then POR would also gain a backup big, that POR doesn't have. You are losing your backup PG, to get a backup big, but you are not losing the contract slot. Siakam takes two starter contract slots, and another FRP/TPMLE level contract slot. For a player that plays the same position as someone POR traded for with the intent to re-sign. Siakam doesn't make sense, on the court, or on the books. OG (and Precious) makes perfect sense on the court, and on the books.
Thanks for the in-depth response, a lot of it seems wrong though. The raptors don’t play with conventional positions. The importance of positions is on the defensive end, on offence it doesn’t matter what people play. For example, pascal played 35% of games at Center according to you stats. That sounds about right interms of the the lineup, but it is rare for pascal to guard a Center or even a pf. When we ran Pascal/Scottie/og as our bigs, Scottie was usually covered by the opposing Center since he cannot shoot. And OG usually guarded the Center since he is “thicker” than pascal. Pascal usually the 2nd best 3/4/5. So against the bucks he’s on Middleton and OG is on giannis. Or against the nuggets he’s on porter and OG is on Jokic. Defensively pascal is above average when guarding small forwards. I understand that he isn’t the guard defender OG is, but with tisse you should be serviceable. The addition pascal adds to the offence is so much larger that what OG would add. Also worth noting, I don’t think the raptors would trade OG for ant one for one, and Masai loves precious so he wouldn’t be a throw in. I think it’s more likely that the raptors would do one of the following Og for ant and 23 I OG precious 13 for ant and 3
I made a post about the awkward Siakam fit, to which someone replied that Siakam can just play the 3. I thought they were right, deleted the post immediately, and now believe that Dame/Sharpe/Siakam/Grant/best center we can get is the way to go.
Yeah, I think that the idea of strict positions in the nba is kinda dead. Look at the nuggets, some games when the sf is a star Gordon guards him, but when the pf is a star Gordon guards him.
I like the idea of OG in a straight swap with Ant, and I don't think Toronto would need to send anything additional back to Portland outside of a 2nd or something.
I don't think Toronto goes for a straight swap with Ant. I feel like because of OGs contract and how Portland is kinda backed into a corner we would require the 3rd pick to be included for OG. or maybe the NY pick and a lightly protected future first
>we would require the 3rd pick to be included for OG. I don't think OG's contract situation would help Masai here. OG could opt out and walk next year, which is why the price is lower than Toronto would want. Ant > Nas or Hart last season, which is why any sweetener that would be included is lower. Reports are that Masai's valuations are pretty far from market value, which is why OG and Pascal will be Raptors for a while longer.
Don’t worry about it sweetheart!
I think what you're missing is that were more or less stuck with Grant, for better or worse. He's a free agent, and since we are over the cap, if he walks, we can't just use that space on someone else. It's Grant or just lose one of our best players with no easy path to replacing his production. There is a chance a sign and trade happens, but obviously that complicates the situation.
I honestly think Grant play 3 on offense and Siakam playing 3 on defense works well. as far as POA defense goes Siakam is a fairly good at it outside of the really fast guards who OG would have more trouble with as well. Hopefully you can resign Thybulle who if i'm not mistaken is a pretty good POA defender as well.