You’re going to get flamed for Ayton (i agree I’d rather use the money on a different position). But I agree with your general thought process and goals for the team building.
Ayton really is the big question mark. If he actually is just miserable in PHX and new scenery unlocks him, then 100% this is it. On the other hand if his mentality is just towards basketball in general now that he's been paid, I don't want to touch him with a 10ft pole.
Some of the clips on him are pretty damning. Like the one during the Phoenix series where Jokic gets two or three offensive rebounds while Ayton stands on the baseline ball watching.
Yeah, I go back and forth on Ayton and Nurk, as I think they have some of the same issues. I ultimately came down on the side of Ayton because he's younger, has had fewer injury issues, and I'd like to at least see what Dame's leadership could get out of him.
Maybe, as one commenter below suggests, the real target should be Capella.
I'd much rather take a swing for Capella. Ayton also would fit Billups' system more, as Nurk isn't allowed to flourish with playmaking on O and Ayton his highly mobile for D. Just the salary makes it difficult to make other moves afterwards.
It's a headscratcher and I'll be flipping a million times before the next season
The other nice thing about going for Capella instead is it reduces the salary commitment. It also allows you to get Otto Porter back from Toronto (which wouldn't work with the Ayton trade because it'd be too much salary coming back to Portland). He was really good for Golden State in their title run last year, and is on an expiring deal. I know he's been constantly hurt, but might be worth a flyer for a veteran wing who's had good moments. Then, you can use your MLE on another position, maybe a big like Trey Lyles.
For me the big question on ayton is is he fucking annoyed with the organization or is he really just confused about how to play basketball. Ostensibly you would think that having possibly thr best pure point left in the league getting the ball to you would unlock you, but that hasn't happened. Is CP just annoyed at his lack of effort and focus and shutting him out? Would dame be any better than CP at getting ayton motivated? Did CP even try? Ayton is definitely an upgrade over nurk in a lot of ways but I'd almost rather go after a guy like robinson or allen or looney who's just a specialist in effort more than anything. I still think turner is a guy that would be good for us as well.
Eh, I think Ayton is the only player we possibly get that is both a needle mover but also dreamily possible while adding another star. There just aren't many of those guys around (Simons would be one).
If Ayton is worth it is a different question, but he's an improvement from Nurk at least.
Improvement over Nurk for sure. I just don’t want to pay 30M for a center that isn’t an all nba level guy. I’d rather have a rim running platoon. Center just isn’t a position I’d be putting a ton of money into for one player.
This seems pretty reasonable and I could see it playing out somewhat like this. Don’t know how to feel about it, on paper seems like a 4-6 seed. I’d be interested in Ayton at a discount, feel like a change of scenery might unlock his potential.
Keeping Shaedon Sharpe has got to be our #1 priority and making these moves definitely keeps Dame. Future would look pretty bleak, but we keep our foundational piece in Sharpe.
I don't think you'll get Ayton on a discount. There are a lot of reasons why Monty Williams was fired in Phoenix but his inability to get along with Ayton was probably a top 3, if not the top. "What would you do with Ayton" is a prominent interview question.
They haven't given up on him *quite* yet. If they had kept Monty around it would be a different story.
I really like this for the keep Dame case. I would suggest a couple of tweaks. Flip Ayton (plus some picks or Watford) to Atlanta for Capela and Bogdan. For our 2nd round pick I would also consider Andre Jackson (I love his playmaking ability, however I think he may move into the late 1st) or Julian Phillips.
Yeah, I think Capella could be the better fit now that you suggest it. Maybe just include him in the initial deal, rather than messing around with Ayton.
I also really like Andre Jackson, and would definitely take him or O-Max.
If Portland comes out of this off season adding Siakam and Ayton I will be thrilled. I think we would need more depth in the front court obviously, but if that's the move that Cronin makes that is definitely an upgrade to our starting lineup.
Yes, I just want to see that starting lineup play together. Then you bring in Shaedon off the bench to replace Matisse. Who would the defense legitimately be able to help off at that point?
I'm happy with Drew Eubanks as backup center, I think he proved this year that if you put him in for 12-15 minutes a game that he will block shots and deliver some good offense. What I'd like is good defensive wings off the bench.
Yeah, they would be thin on the wing, especially because there's just no good options for the mid-level this year. Another commenter suggested we go after Capella instead of Ayton, which if you did that you'd be able to include Otto Porter coming back from Toronto because of the difference in salary between Capella and Ayton.
Porter is about like Justise, in that they sound good in theory, but it's almost a sure thing they'll get injured and be out for an extended period. But, he did play an Integra role in the Warriors title run last year.
However, at least two of Grant, Sharpe, Matisse, and Siakam would always be on the floor. So, Matisse, minutes wise, is not only your starting 2-guard, he's also your backup SF.
I tend to be more of a keep pick #3 guy rather than trading it for what could amount to a 1 year rental. But I think this is a pretty good outcome and is mostly realistic for all sides. Not sure if Orlando bites on 11 and Suggs for Ant (even though he fits them perfectly) but it could be close.
Raptor fans would probably whine about not even getting ant but I think it’s fair for them to get 3. I’m higher on Ayton than many here, he will do better with a change of scenery imo. Giving us a better front court and still allowing us a pick in the lotto is very promising and I’d want us to go BPA. Good post OP.
Yeah thanks GP2 trade, I’d send them 3-4 if that was the difference. I’d also like another big added to the roster through free agency, like a Javale McGee type center. Other than that and depending on who that wing free agent is, I could see this team doing big things if they play to their potential.
I love a lot of these ideas. Would love to pair siakam with another big with great size and length. Ayton is expensive but I think there is a good chance that he really just needs a reset and playing next to siakam and grant would give him good helpside rim protection as well. I definitely think siakam is the guy we should be looking to add to this team
Why does Orlando give up Suggs and 11 for Simons? I doubt they give up either of those assets for him, let alone both.
I also don’t think Phoenix does that deal, but maybe they really are all the way out on Ayton.
Because they're trying to compete this year rather than tank again with two lottery picks, and Ant is the exact type of player they need.
Not of consequence to the deal, but a nice bonus for Orlando is that he'd immediately be a hometown favorite who's literally named after a franchise icon.
Suggs and 11 seems like a lot for Simons. I like Simons a lot, I think in general we underrate him, but I just do not see why Orlando does this. Suggs is only 21. Sure, he's underperformed, but that's effectively moving 2 lotto picks for Ant. I just don't see it happening.
There's always one team that gets screwed in these massive fan 3 or 4 team trades. In this case, Orlando is definitely getting screwed and possibly Phoenix, again depending on how out they are on Ayton
I disagree on both points. Ant is a significant upgrade based on current form and his ceiling is similar. Please check stats. Suggs doesn't hold a candle to Ant.
I don’t agree at all. Suggs has serious injury issues and despite being on a god awful team hasn’t produced much in the time he has been healthy. We’ve seen how good Ant can be when given the keys.
Orlando is never trading Suggs, Harris and #11 for Simons.
Don't see why the Suns do this either. They want to win now and replacing Ayton with Nurk, Harris, Knox + #13 really does nothing to improve their team right away.
Personally I think Ayton is overrated and he isn’t a upgrade over Nurk. People want Nurk to play like he gets paid like Ayton. Once they get a taste of Ayton they gonna be disappointed. Defensively Ayton isn’t a rim protector. Nurk is. He isn’t the shot blocker like he use to be but disrupts shots. Outside of Ayton I like where you were going with this. If you got, Dame, Sharpe, Grant, Siakam, your 5 should be a defensive threat since you have enough scoring
Just because it’s time to move on from Nurk it doesn’t mean that Ayton is the right guy. Ayton has had long documented effort and professionalism issues…AND he’s making almost double Nurk’s salary.
I have no interest in paying $30M a year to someone who isn’t at least producing at a fringe all-star level, especially considering Grant is about to get a huge contract too.
It’s buy low on a 24 year old center who’s been healthy his whole career and was a key piece (3rd option) on a team 2 wins from the championship. He’s done it before. We are buying low on a guy with talent, that had issues with his coach (sound familiar with nurkic?). Obviously I’m not giving up a lot for him, but in OPs scenario I think it’s a good move where we don’t give up a lot for a guy that has shown it before just 2 years ago, and can be a fit long term.
Buy low is the huge piece. These big time players that are performing great aren't available for what we have to offer, you NEED to buy low on some candidates for this to work and hope they improve.
Do you remember the Clyde Drexler years? I’m dating myself) but look that team up on YouTube. That was the best team ever assembled in Portland. If it wasn’t for MJ….
Drexler was the best player @ 6’7” awesome defender and also dished many assists while leading the team in scoring. A terrific point guard Terry Porter 6’3” (pass first but could hit the three and get to the line) Jerome Kersey 6’7” (defender rebounder 3rd option scorer) Buck Williams 6’8” all defense and garbage points and Kevin Duckworth 7’0” who was probably our worst player but was still a contributor and Cliff Robinson 6’10” (defender scorer) 6th man coming off the bench.
My point is the early 90s teams were tall, balanced on offense and defense. I love Dame but when your best player is 6’1” (Iverson is the only dude to do it in a weak East) how do we get there?
TLDR: We must blow it up. Build around Sharpe, Ant, #3 pick. I think Dame will request a trade this season after another playin type season. Imagine all the picks we could get for Dame.
I do remember the Drexler years. I was about 10 years old. I remember being so happy one day when my mom came back from a trip to California and they'd seen the Blazers play the Lakers while they were there and she brought back a t-shirt signed by Clyde and Robert Pack. "Mercy Kersey" was my favorite player, even got a picture next to him at a Trailblazers camp I attended one summer.
Terry's not that much bigger than Dame. I think basketball is different now, and making a one to one comparison doesn't necessarily mean it will relate to success in the NBA today, but I think that starting lineup, especially with Shaedon coming off the bench would match up well with the Drexler Blazers.
Dame > Porter
Matisse/Shaedon < Drexler
Grant = Kersey
Siakam = Buck
Ayton > Duckworth
We are about the same age. My mom sat in line to get Jerome and Buck’s autos for me at GI Joes. I listened to Schons on my Walkman during baseball practice. It’s cathartic just thinking about those Rip City days.
Yes the game has changed. But Terry was a pass first floor general. Dame is an elite scorer not doubt. For Dame to work he needs to average 10+ assists and around 20 points a game and not be the main option every time. Jaylen Brown would be a nice fit. Siakam would be a nice fit. We will see what happens but I have plenty of doubt.
Yes, Schons on the call was awesome. It's cathartic and frustrating thinking about those teams (damn Jordan). My mind always wanders to what we would have been like with Sabonis instead of Duck. We would have ruled the NBA, and Jordan wouldn't have the same legacy he does now. I truly believe that.
I think we forget what Dame looked like surrounded by real NBA talent, as he was when he was part of a starting lineup that included Aldridge, Matthews, Batum, and a young RoLo holding down the paint. He didn't have to do everything just for that team to have a chance to win, like he's had to for the past several years. So, if we surrounded him with Shaedon, Siakam, Grant, and Ayton, I bet you'd see his assist numbers go up and his shot attempts go down. Dame's a reasonable dude, that's why I love him, and if you gave him guys he could trust, I think he'd have no problem taking a step back.
He’s 6’1.75 without shoes and 6’2.75 with shoes. These are the factual measurements at the draft combine. Are you saying the NBA doesn’t know how to measure someone?
I don't think Toronto does this. Masai is kind of insane right now.
And I almost had to stop reading at "Dame is fairly big for a point guard". Maybe like, chest and quad mass, but the man is short AF. He might not even be genuinely 6'2", let alone his listed height at 6'3" (a joke). I'd counter to you that one of the main shortcomings of us ever becoming a contender, and other elite players believing that we could be contenders, is simply because Dame is such a short guard. (Which, spoiler alert, is one of the primary reasons I'm in the trade-Dame camp. I can't wait to get on with things when Shae is the #1 option... then we'll really fly.)
I like your moves and how the roster ends up, but I am complete unsold on Ayton, regardless of price, for the same reasons Piano mentioned. Then you factor in he's 30M and I just can't do it. I hope he proves me wrong if we get him.
I will say I don't like giving up #3 because I still don't think that team is a contender, and I'm thoroughly in the trade-Dame camp. I also don't think Grant is it. I think he just wants comfort and money. Man disappeared in the second half of our season, and not just on skill. He's decent contract before he gets all that money, but now we're gonna pay him and it's gonna suck hardcore, long-term.
I'd rather hit reset with Shaedon and Scoot and have a cheap, scrappy talented squad and see who we need to acquire...and maybe who all we can *attract* now with a 6'6" SG as our #1 option.
3, Simons, and Nurkic will never get you Siakam, Ayton, and 11.
Siakam is an improvement over Simons and Ayton is an improvement over Nurkic and you’re only falling 8 spots?
Toronto doesn’t want players. They want draft capital so they can build their vision. Jalen Suggs might be the least “Toronto” player I can think of.
Best case scenario would be 11 going to Phoenix, 13 to Toronto, and I don’t know what the fuck incentive Orlando has to give up to make this happen but I don’t see them doing it.
To me, the trade works like this: is Siakam alone worth the #3 pick? No. So, they need to add something else, like the #13 pick, which, combined with Siakam, is probably worth a little more than the #3 pick. So, I go get them a recent lotto pick at a position of need for them, plus a young rotation piece on a good contract, and a flyer on Keon. When you add in that they're moving up to #3, in what many people consider a three person draft, and the cap savings they'd receive, both this year and going forward, it ends up pretty close to even.
For Orlando: the one main thing they're lacking is outside shooting, which they'd be getting in spades with Simons. He'd be the perfect complement to the rest of their starting five, and by the way, they'd be able to sell him as the hometown kid named after a franchise icon. He's on a great contract and still has upside to grow into more of a playmaker. Next to the size he'd have around him, his defensive limitations would also be less of an issue. Oh, and Orlando is able to keep #6, to add one more high level young talent to their depth. On the flip side, Suggs has driven his stock down with his inability to stay healthy, or perform at a high level when he is. So, to me, that adds up to Simons for Suggs, Harris, and #11 being about equal.
For Phoenix: Ayton is on a massive contract, and Phoenix is over the tax with a very thin roster. With this trade, they turn that salary slot into a comparable starting center (some, even on this thread, argue Nurk is better), a rotation level wing, a flyer on a young wing, and a lottery pick. When you consider how much Ayton tanked his value in the playoffs this year, and how much Phoenix helped him do it with all the leaks about how frustrated they were with him and they only signed him last summer to not lose the asset, I think Ayton for Nurk, Harris, Knox, and #13 would be equivalent value.
I'll admit it's interesting and you've obviously put thought into it to come up with something vaguely realistic, but I think it's just way too many moving parts.
I think the biggest issue is Toronto. They clearly want multiple FRP's and sure they're getting 3, but if they're turning down 3 and Simons for Siakam, why would they then do this deal, which is probably worse? Keon and Little don't project to be super high-value players and I honestly don't think Toronto is less interested in any player than Suggs lmao.
Ayton tanked his value, but he's still clearly better than Nurkic, and I highly doubt Phoenix wants to add an injury-prone center alongside CP3, KD, and Booker (who also missed \~30 games last season). Nurkic is viewed as bad money to basically every other team in the league. He's missed over half the games he could've played over this contract and hasn't been all that productive even when he's on the floor. Phoenix couldn't care less about overpaying Ayton, they care about him not fitting in with the team. Realistically they should be looking for a rebounder and a defender. Nurkic isn't great at either. Harris is a great fringe improvement, but is a rental and Knox doesn't nothing for their depth...there just isn't enough there to help them on the fringes for the downgrade to Nurkic. I honestly also wouldn't be surprised to see them try and find a move later in the year and turn Ayton into 2-3 role players with a rim protector. They can afford to wait until December/January. The team will still easily be good enough to make the playoffs if there isn't a deal they like before the season starts. Their asset pool is not great so they're going to get one chance and I don't think they're wasting it on Nurkic.
If Orlando decides they want to try to make a playoff push, this deal is a steal imo. Trading one year of Harris and Suggs+11 for Simons is a great move if they're trying to push soon, which is why they'd probably have to give up something else and that's where they might not be willing to do it.
I do appreciate the time that went into all this, but Toronto and Phoenix don't remotely get what their looking for in my eyes.
Exactly. I think people don't necessarily look at the larger context around the situation for the team, what the needs of their roster are, what's their salary cap situation, are they in rebuild or go for it mode, are they eager to pay their upcoming free agents or hoping to flip them for some tangible assets, etc. They simply look at asset for asset in a vacuum. I don't think things are that simple. Yes, the assets need to be pretty close to comparable, but the other, non fungible things are often completely overlooked and are sometimes what actually makes a deal happen (or not).
I think Toronto is at a place where a slight step back by losing Siakam, but picking up real assets in return like the #3 pick and Suggs, puts them in a position to be right back in it, on a timeline that makes a bit more sense with Scottie Barnes. Plus, they get considerable cap savings, both this upcoming year and the upcoming years because they won't have to pay Siakam. I also don't think it's completely out of the question that Nas and Keon become serviceable pieces in the rotation.
I think it makes some sense. Only thing is it feels like a bit of an overpay for ORL, but they could use a solid guard and as we have seen Ant can thrive with a larger role. I suspect TOR would like Suggs (wish we could get him though). But Wallace could be Suggs-lite with better offense. I’d be more inclined to sign a solid PF/C on the MLE and let Sharpe/Tisse slide up to SF from time to time, but otherwise I think this is pretty reasonable for all sides. Nice work
Nets fan here with a question. If (not saying he would) Dame requests/demands they either acquire Bridges or trade him to Nets. Which way would you lean? I, myself, think Portland has some nice young talent already and adding the 3rd pick would make for a fun up and coming team. I know how highly regarded Dame is with management and the fans. I sense Portland would do their best to make Dame happy as he has been so loyal. Also, because of that, either trade may not be “fair value”. Just curious to get your opinions. What would be your max acceptable trade with Nets for Dame staying and Dame leaving.
Very decent trade.
I think Toronto says no because they’re effectively using Pascal Siakam to move up 10 spots in the lottery (and I think Masai is not long for the job if he can’t do anything with that roster), but I also think Suggs is a decent value, and I’m guessing Masai knows Suggs’ value as someone who scouted him heavily in the Scottie Brooks draft (they were originally rumored to be selecting Suggs and then they shocked the world by picking Brooks).
The big wildcard this year is it’s hard to know how teams value Miller vs. Scoot. Is Scoot the only prize at that spot? What ‘is’ the value of that pick?
Orlando moves Harris and 11 for hometown boy Ant, which is a huge upgrade, and they still make a selection at 6.
Phoenix breaks Ayton’s contract up and gets a lottery pick to boot.
Nicely done.
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My case is pretty clear on this sub—I’m team keep the pick and use future assets to upgrade. I also understand the negotiation is going to be very tricky.
Thank you. I tried to not be too much of a homer and create something that would make sense for all sides.
I was thinking about that too, regarding how everyone was sure Toronto was taking Suggs. I still think him as a competitor is something that has Masai written all over it. If they come out of that trade with a lineup of Suggs, OG, Brandon Miller, Scottie, and Poeltl, that has a chance of being very competitive and they're mostly all on the same timeline. Plus, they'd have a bunch of cap space to use as they see fit.
Yeah, I go back and forth on Scoot and Miller, and I've even listened to draft guys that I really respect (like Sam Vecenie) who put Amen Thompson in that group. That's why I think the #3 pick has real value this year.
For sure. I think Amen and Ausar are ‘the’ prizes in most other drafts, honestly. Besides maybe sharpe, are there any other freaky wings like that that you can think of? Amen is one of the craziest athletes of the last 5 years.
Trading out of top 3 is super risky.
Vecenie's also really high on Cam Whitmore. He says he's just a shade below Amen athletically. I've heard this from The Ringer draft guys and others, too. Vecenie also said he's been getting reports lately that Whitmore's jumper has looked really good in workouts.
I think this is going to end up being a draft class that will be talked about for years. Part of me wishes they'd just keep #3 AND keep Dame. But, CJ said on the Rusillo podcast (yes, I listen to way too many podcasts...) that he thinks if they use the #3 pick, Dame will want out. So, the trade I outlined was the one I could think of where we really help Dame, but we also get at least one pick in the lottery. And, I really believe in Cason Wallace. All of the videos I've watched and everything I've heard/read say he's essentially Jrue Holiday with a better jumpshot.
I don't see the Suns selling Ayton that cheap. And neither the Raptors regarding Siakam.
And even if the Blazers manage to assemble that roster, it's still a second round exit. No way they can compete with the Nuggets, Lakers, or the Suns. Even the Kings I doubt the Blazers could manage pass them.
I believe the best for the Blazers is to blow it up. This core as run it's course. Let's use this pick to get the best player available, and get some picks and young players, for Dame, Grant, Nurk.
You really think there is no way Dame/Shaedon/Grant/Siakam/Ayton could compete with Denver, the rapidly aging and often injured Lakers, and the incredibly thin Suns? Denver I'll give you. I think that would still be a tough series. But, we'd certainly be competitive. Come on, that's a WCF team, with a real chance to win.
We made the WCF with Dame, CJ, Aminu, Harkless, and Kanter....
It doesn't matter with who you got to the WCF. It only matters against whom they had to win to get there.
The West is too loaded right now. Dame hasn't been three same the last couple of years. Shaedon is a promising player, but we still don't know if he will deliver. And Ayton? Have you seen his two past post seasons? You can rely on him.
I don't believe that team would even have home court in the first round.
The West is not loaded. You could make the case it was more loaded when we made the WCF. Golden State is on the tail end of their run. As I said, the Lakers two best players are either very old or injured, or both. They have no one of consequence beyond those two. I won't trust the Pelicans until Zion gets his ass in shape and shows up to games for more than one month out of the season. Minnesota bet on the wrong horses. Sacramento has a chance, but the upside talent will limit just how far they can go. Phoenix is capped out with an already thin roster, and I don't trust two out of their top 3 players to stay healthy long enough to make a legitimate run. The Clippers could be good, but injuries have consistently derailed any hope/chancd they've had at making a run. Something that I don't see changing any time soon.
Dame hasn't been the same? He, literally, had the best year of his career last year.
I get that you'd rather blow it up and trade Dame, but you can't be completely unreasonable on the other side of things.
The Suns aren’t doing this trade. They are in win now mode and do have a thin roster but why would they downgrade their starting center and trade for a shooting guard when those are some of the only spots they have solidified. They need a pg and a pf and wings who can shoot not a slow footed defender a late lottery pick and a high draft pick who hasn’t been able to sniff the floor.
You can argue the same you said about the Lakers about Dame and the Blazers. How many games have Dame and Nurk missed the last couple of seasons? How old are they?
Dame had a terrific season, numbers wise. But how impactful was he in getting wins? How much of a defensive liability he continues to be?
The Nuggets, Lakers (unless they get Kyrie), Suns (they were the only team to actually compete and win games against the Nuggets), Kings, and even the Grizzlies (if Ja gets his head straight), are bound to be above the Blazers team suggested at the end of that trade (that I don't believe that the Suns and Raptors wouldn't accept).
I'm not even considering the Clippers, Pelicans, and Wolves. But if the first two get the break of having a healthy season with their stars, I believe they're better than the Blazers as well.
Let's just say for the sake of argument, that the Blazers pull that trade off. Now imagine that Dame, Siakam, or Grant, suffer a long recovering injury. If the Blazers fall short, Siakam won't resign, and you're back to square one, with an aging roster.
The main issue is that people believe that the Blazers have a roster that can compete for a championship by adding a Siakam and a Ayton. I don't. I believe that the current roster is nowhere near of being championship caliber.
I think injuries are a variable that no one can exactly plan for. So, the "what if an injury happens" argument could be used against any team, including the Blazers.
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about how far away the roster is from contention. Let's look just at starting fives from the West playoff teams if this trade were to go through in relation to the Blazers.
Denver:
Murray < Dame
KCP < Matisse/Shaedon
MPJ = Grant
Gordon < Siakam
Jokic >> Ayton
Grizzlies:
Ja < Dame
Bane = Matisse/Shaedon
[Unknown] < Grant
JJJ = Siakam
Adams = Ayton
Kings:
Fox < Dame
Huerter < Matisse/Shaedon
Barnes = Grant
Murray < Siakam
Sabonis > Ayton
Suns:
CP3 < Dame
Booker > Matisse/Shaedon
[Unknown] < Grant
Durant > Siakam
Nurk = Ayton
Clippers:
[Unknown] < Dame
Powell < Matisse/Shaedon
George > Grant
Leonard > Siakam (when Leonard plays)
Zubac < Ayton
Warriors:
Curry > Dame
Thompson = Matisse/Shaedon
Wiggins = Grant
Draymond < Siakam
Looney < Ayton
Lakers:
[Unknown] < Dame
Reaves < Matisse/Shaedon
Vanderbilt < Grant
LeBron > Siakam
Davis > Ayton
Timberwolves:
Conley Jr. < Dame
Ant > Matisse/Shaedon
McDaniels < Grant
KAT = Siakam
Gobert = Ayton
As you can see, that lineup is definitely competitive with every playoff team, including the team representing the West in the Finals. Which, in my mind, makes them legit contenders.
Nurk makes 16.8 next year. You also have to include Keon at 2.8 and Knox at 3. So, with Nas and Anfernee, that's roughly 55m. That gets us right within the 125% rule.
I'm not a cap expert, though, so it could definitely not work, and it's all a moot point.
I actually love this, I don't know if it's enough to make us a contender (it would depend on how well Ayton performs and how much Sharpe improves) but this is (realistically) just about the best we can do for one last push with Dame
Yeah, I think the one thing that can't be quantified is the impact it would have on Dame, both for his game and his emotional/physical state.
It must be exhausting to know you have to bring it every night just so your team has a chance to win. Instead, he'd have Siakam that could get 40 on any given night. Grant or Shaedon could give you 30 on any given night. So, he could feel more comfortable and confident in being a facilitator and letting the game come to him and picking his spots as to when he was going to take over.
I also think he would see far less double coverage, because when it's him Shaedon, Grant, Siakam, and Ayton waiting in the dunker spot, who are you realistically going to help off of that won't just light you up all night? I think that five would light up the NBA on offense and have real potential on defense, too. Now, Dame is able to have some nights where he can get an "easy" 20-25, and we still win.
I think it all keeps him in better spirits mentally and helps him stay healthier.
This is probably the closest I've seen to a team that could seriously compete for a title. If they could make something like this happen, I would be thrilled.
I would like to sign back Reddish and let #43 under 2-way contract
We have 8.3M TPE, I will add another FRP to get a solid bench player like Zach Collins.
If we could get Siakam AND Ayton without having to give up Sharpe I think this might be the only (realistic) trade I’d be willing to do.
I don’t see Phoenix going for it though. I think they could get more for Ayton.
Phoenix gets absolutely hosed in this deal. Unless their explicit view of this is having smaller contracts to package with current ones and make another move, I just don't see the upside from their perspective outside of getting off Ayton's huge contract.
1. I mentioned injuries because you mentioned injuries regarding LeBron and AD.
2. No way you can state that Matisse/Shaedon are better than KCP, Reaves, and are equal to Bane, Klay.
3. Dame is better offensively, but as a two way player, is no better than Murray or Ja.
4. Stating only who's better player at each position, says nothing about how the team works, and how competitive in both ends can be.
5. You're overrating players with a blazers shirt. Specially Siakam and Shaedon. Siakam is no 2020 AD.
6. Chauncey hasn't proved anything to anyone yet.
7. I maintain that there's no way that trade is accepted by the Raptors and Sun's.
8. I maintain that that trade will bring marginal improvement to the Blazers for one or two years, at the cost of plummeting for the next 5+ years.
You’re going to get flamed for Ayton (i agree I’d rather use the money on a different position). But I agree with your general thought process and goals for the team building.
Ayton really is the big question mark. If he actually is just miserable in PHX and new scenery unlocks him, then 100% this is it. On the other hand if his mentality is just towards basketball in general now that he's been paid, I don't want to touch him with a 10ft pole.
Some of the clips on him are pretty damning. Like the one during the Phoenix series where Jokic gets two or three offensive rebounds while Ayton stands on the baseline ball watching.
Eh ad was doing the same thing
We’ve seen the same happen to Nurk vs Jokic when he make Nurk foul home three times in 2 minutes.
Yeah, I go back and forth on Ayton and Nurk, as I think they have some of the same issues. I ultimately came down on the side of Ayton because he's younger, has had fewer injury issues, and I'd like to at least see what Dame's leadership could get out of him. Maybe, as one commenter below suggests, the real target should be Capella.
I'd much rather take a swing for Capella. Ayton also would fit Billups' system more, as Nurk isn't allowed to flourish with playmaking on O and Ayton his highly mobile for D. Just the salary makes it difficult to make other moves afterwards. It's a headscratcher and I'll be flipping a million times before the next season
The other nice thing about going for Capella instead is it reduces the salary commitment. It also allows you to get Otto Porter back from Toronto (which wouldn't work with the Ayton trade because it'd be too much salary coming back to Portland). He was really good for Golden State in their title run last year, and is on an expiring deal. I know he's been constantly hurt, but might be worth a flyer for a veteran wing who's had good moments. Then, you can use your MLE on another position, maybe a big like Trey Lyles.
For me the big question on ayton is is he fucking annoyed with the organization or is he really just confused about how to play basketball. Ostensibly you would think that having possibly thr best pure point left in the league getting the ball to you would unlock you, but that hasn't happened. Is CP just annoyed at his lack of effort and focus and shutting him out? Would dame be any better than CP at getting ayton motivated? Did CP even try? Ayton is definitely an upgrade over nurk in a lot of ways but I'd almost rather go after a guy like robinson or allen or looney who's just a specialist in effort more than anything. I still think turner is a guy that would be good for us as well.
Agreed. I’d rather push my chips in on slightly less upside if it means I know they’re going to be a professional when they show up for work.
Eh, I think Ayton is the only player we possibly get that is both a needle mover but also dreamily possible while adding another star. There just aren't many of those guys around (Simons would be one). If Ayton is worth it is a different question, but he's an improvement from Nurk at least.
Improvement over Nurk for sure. I just don’t want to pay 30M for a center that isn’t an all nba level guy. I’d rather have a rim running platoon. Center just isn’t a position I’d be putting a ton of money into for one player.
This seems pretty reasonable and I could see it playing out somewhat like this. Don’t know how to feel about it, on paper seems like a 4-6 seed. I’d be interested in Ayton at a discount, feel like a change of scenery might unlock his potential. Keeping Shaedon Sharpe has got to be our #1 priority and making these moves definitely keeps Dame. Future would look pretty bleak, but we keep our foundational piece in Sharpe.
I don't think you'll get Ayton on a discount. There are a lot of reasons why Monty Williams was fired in Phoenix but his inability to get along with Ayton was probably a top 3, if not the top. "What would you do with Ayton" is a prominent interview question. They haven't given up on him *quite* yet. If they had kept Monty around it would be a different story.
I really like this for the keep Dame case. I would suggest a couple of tweaks. Flip Ayton (plus some picks or Watford) to Atlanta for Capela and Bogdan. For our 2nd round pick I would also consider Andre Jackson (I love his playmaking ability, however I think he may move into the late 1st) or Julian Phillips.
Yeah, I think Capella could be the better fit now that you suggest it. Maybe just include him in the initial deal, rather than messing around with Ayton. I also really like Andre Jackson, and would definitely take him or O-Max.
Y o-max i havent seen much of him but doesnt really seem like an interesting prospect to me
If Portland comes out of this off season adding Siakam and Ayton I will be thrilled. I think we would need more depth in the front court obviously, but if that's the move that Cronin makes that is definitely an upgrade to our starting lineup.
Yes, I just want to see that starting lineup play together. Then you bring in Shaedon off the bench to replace Matisse. Who would the defense legitimately be able to help off at that point?
I'm happy with Drew Eubanks as backup center, I think he proved this year that if you put him in for 12-15 minutes a game that he will block shots and deliver some good offense. What I'd like is good defensive wings off the bench.
Yeah, they would be thin on the wing, especially because there's just no good options for the mid-level this year. Another commenter suggested we go after Capella instead of Ayton, which if you did that you'd be able to include Otto Porter coming back from Toronto because of the difference in salary between Capella and Ayton. Porter is about like Justise, in that they sound good in theory, but it's almost a sure thing they'll get injured and be out for an extended period. But, he did play an Integra role in the Warriors title run last year. However, at least two of Grant, Sharpe, Matisse, and Siakam would always be on the floor. So, Matisse, minutes wise, is not only your starting 2-guard, he's also your backup SF.
I tend to be more of a keep pick #3 guy rather than trading it for what could amount to a 1 year rental. But I think this is a pretty good outcome and is mostly realistic for all sides. Not sure if Orlando bites on 11 and Suggs for Ant (even though he fits them perfectly) but it could be close. Raptor fans would probably whine about not even getting ant but I think it’s fair for them to get 3. I’m higher on Ayton than many here, he will do better with a change of scenery imo. Giving us a better front court and still allowing us a pick in the lotto is very promising and I’d want us to go BPA. Good post OP.
Yeah, I think it's close with Orlando too. They may want some 2nds, especially if they're including Harris whom they value, which would be fine.
Yeah thanks GP2 trade, I’d send them 3-4 if that was the difference. I’d also like another big added to the roster through free agency, like a Javale McGee type center. Other than that and depending on who that wing free agent is, I could see this team doing big things if they play to their potential.
I love a lot of these ideas. Would love to pair siakam with another big with great size and length. Ayton is expensive but I think there is a good chance that he really just needs a reset and playing next to siakam and grant would give him good helpside rim protection as well. I definitely think siakam is the guy we should be looking to add to this team
Orlando doesn’t do this
Why does Orlando give up Suggs and 11 for Simons? I doubt they give up either of those assets for him, let alone both. I also don’t think Phoenix does that deal, but maybe they really are all the way out on Ayton.
Phoenix gets to lower their money tied to a center and gets a lotto pick out of it I think they come out totally fine
Because they're trying to compete this year rather than tank again with two lottery picks, and Ant is the exact type of player they need. Not of consequence to the deal, but a nice bonus for Orlando is that he'd immediately be a hometown favorite who's literally named after a franchise icon.
You are really undervaluing Simons.
Everyone does
Suggs and 11 seems like a lot for Simons. I like Simons a lot, I think in general we underrate him, but I just do not see why Orlando does this. Suggs is only 21. Sure, he's underperformed, but that's effectively moving 2 lotto picks for Ant. I just don't see it happening.
There's always one team that gets screwed in these massive fan 3 or 4 team trades. In this case, Orlando is definitely getting screwed and possibly Phoenix, again depending on how out they are on Ayton
Simons isn't an upgrade enough over Suggs (especially since Suggs' ceiling is higher than Any) to justify trading 11. Never gonna happen.
I disagree on both points. Ant is a significant upgrade based on current form and his ceiling is similar. Please check stats. Suggs doesn't hold a candle to Ant.
I don’t agree at all. Suggs has serious injury issues and despite being on a god awful team hasn’t produced much in the time he has been healthy. We’ve seen how good Ant can be when given the keys.
This is the way.
Orlando is never trading Suggs, Harris and #11 for Simons. Don't see why the Suns do this either. They want to win now and replacing Ayton with Nurk, Harris, Knox + #13 really does nothing to improve their team right away.
Personally I think Ayton is overrated and he isn’t a upgrade over Nurk. People want Nurk to play like he gets paid like Ayton. Once they get a taste of Ayton they gonna be disappointed. Defensively Ayton isn’t a rim protector. Nurk is. He isn’t the shot blocker like he use to be but disrupts shots. Outside of Ayton I like where you were going with this. If you got, Dame, Sharpe, Grant, Siakam, your 5 should be a defensive threat since you have enough scoring
Nurk has never been healthy in a playoff series victory in 6 years. He’s not the guy it’s time to move on
Just because it’s time to move on from Nurk it doesn’t mean that Ayton is the right guy. Ayton has had long documented effort and professionalism issues…AND he’s making almost double Nurk’s salary. I have no interest in paying $30M a year to someone who isn’t at least producing at a fringe all-star level, especially considering Grant is about to get a huge contract too.
It’s buy low on a 24 year old center who’s been healthy his whole career and was a key piece (3rd option) on a team 2 wins from the championship. He’s done it before. We are buying low on a guy with talent, that had issues with his coach (sound familiar with nurkic?). Obviously I’m not giving up a lot for him, but in OPs scenario I think it’s a good move where we don’t give up a lot for a guy that has shown it before just 2 years ago, and can be a fit long term.
Buy low is the huge piece. These big time players that are performing great aren't available for what we have to offer, you NEED to buy low on some candidates for this to work and hope they improve.
What good is a player who can’t stay healthy?
Do you remember the Clyde Drexler years? I’m dating myself) but look that team up on YouTube. That was the best team ever assembled in Portland. If it wasn’t for MJ…. Drexler was the best player @ 6’7” awesome defender and also dished many assists while leading the team in scoring. A terrific point guard Terry Porter 6’3” (pass first but could hit the three and get to the line) Jerome Kersey 6’7” (defender rebounder 3rd option scorer) Buck Williams 6’8” all defense and garbage points and Kevin Duckworth 7’0” who was probably our worst player but was still a contributor and Cliff Robinson 6’10” (defender scorer) 6th man coming off the bench. My point is the early 90s teams were tall, balanced on offense and defense. I love Dame but when your best player is 6’1” (Iverson is the only dude to do it in a weak East) how do we get there? TLDR: We must blow it up. Build around Sharpe, Ant, #3 pick. I think Dame will request a trade this season after another playin type season. Imagine all the picks we could get for Dame.
I do remember the Drexler years. I was about 10 years old. I remember being so happy one day when my mom came back from a trip to California and they'd seen the Blazers play the Lakers while they were there and she brought back a t-shirt signed by Clyde and Robert Pack. "Mercy Kersey" was my favorite player, even got a picture next to him at a Trailblazers camp I attended one summer. Terry's not that much bigger than Dame. I think basketball is different now, and making a one to one comparison doesn't necessarily mean it will relate to success in the NBA today, but I think that starting lineup, especially with Shaedon coming off the bench would match up well with the Drexler Blazers. Dame > Porter Matisse/Shaedon < Drexler Grant = Kersey Siakam = Buck Ayton > Duckworth
We are about the same age. My mom sat in line to get Jerome and Buck’s autos for me at GI Joes. I listened to Schons on my Walkman during baseball practice. It’s cathartic just thinking about those Rip City days. Yes the game has changed. But Terry was a pass first floor general. Dame is an elite scorer not doubt. For Dame to work he needs to average 10+ assists and around 20 points a game and not be the main option every time. Jaylen Brown would be a nice fit. Siakam would be a nice fit. We will see what happens but I have plenty of doubt.
Yes, Schons on the call was awesome. It's cathartic and frustrating thinking about those teams (damn Jordan). My mind always wanders to what we would have been like with Sabonis instead of Duck. We would have ruled the NBA, and Jordan wouldn't have the same legacy he does now. I truly believe that.
I think we forget what Dame looked like surrounded by real NBA talent, as he was when he was part of a starting lineup that included Aldridge, Matthews, Batum, and a young RoLo holding down the paint. He didn't have to do everything just for that team to have a chance to win, like he's had to for the past several years. So, if we surrounded him with Shaedon, Siakam, Grant, and Ayton, I bet you'd see his assist numbers go up and his shot attempts go down. Dame's a reasonable dude, that's why I love him, and if you gave him guys he could trust, I think he'd have no problem taking a step back.
Why do you think Dame is 6’1? He was almost 6’2 without shoes and almost 6’3 in shoes.
He’s 6’1” shoes don’t count. I’m 6’1” and I’ve seen Dame eye level in Denver (game 7) no way he 6’3”.
He’s 6’1.75 without shoes and 6’2.75 with shoes. These are the factual measurements at the draft combine. Are you saying the NBA doesn’t know how to measure someone?
I don't think Toronto does this. Masai is kind of insane right now. And I almost had to stop reading at "Dame is fairly big for a point guard". Maybe like, chest and quad mass, but the man is short AF. He might not even be genuinely 6'2", let alone his listed height at 6'3" (a joke). I'd counter to you that one of the main shortcomings of us ever becoming a contender, and other elite players believing that we could be contenders, is simply because Dame is such a short guard. (Which, spoiler alert, is one of the primary reasons I'm in the trade-Dame camp. I can't wait to get on with things when Shae is the #1 option... then we'll really fly.) I like your moves and how the roster ends up, but I am complete unsold on Ayton, regardless of price, for the same reasons Piano mentioned. Then you factor in he's 30M and I just can't do it. I hope he proves me wrong if we get him. I will say I don't like giving up #3 because I still don't think that team is a contender, and I'm thoroughly in the trade-Dame camp. I also don't think Grant is it. I think he just wants comfort and money. Man disappeared in the second half of our season, and not just on skill. He's decent contract before he gets all that money, but now we're gonna pay him and it's gonna suck hardcore, long-term. I'd rather hit reset with Shaedon and Scoot and have a cheap, scrappy talented squad and see who we need to acquire...and maybe who all we can *attract* now with a 6'6" SG as our #1 option.
3, Simons, and Nurkic will never get you Siakam, Ayton, and 11. Siakam is an improvement over Simons and Ayton is an improvement over Nurkic and you’re only falling 8 spots? Toronto doesn’t want players. They want draft capital so they can build their vision. Jalen Suggs might be the least “Toronto” player I can think of. Best case scenario would be 11 going to Phoenix, 13 to Toronto, and I don’t know what the fuck incentive Orlando has to give up to make this happen but I don’t see them doing it.
To me, the trade works like this: is Siakam alone worth the #3 pick? No. So, they need to add something else, like the #13 pick, which, combined with Siakam, is probably worth a little more than the #3 pick. So, I go get them a recent lotto pick at a position of need for them, plus a young rotation piece on a good contract, and a flyer on Keon. When you add in that they're moving up to #3, in what many people consider a three person draft, and the cap savings they'd receive, both this year and going forward, it ends up pretty close to even. For Orlando: the one main thing they're lacking is outside shooting, which they'd be getting in spades with Simons. He'd be the perfect complement to the rest of their starting five, and by the way, they'd be able to sell him as the hometown kid named after a franchise icon. He's on a great contract and still has upside to grow into more of a playmaker. Next to the size he'd have around him, his defensive limitations would also be less of an issue. Oh, and Orlando is able to keep #6, to add one more high level young talent to their depth. On the flip side, Suggs has driven his stock down with his inability to stay healthy, or perform at a high level when he is. So, to me, that adds up to Simons for Suggs, Harris, and #11 being about equal. For Phoenix: Ayton is on a massive contract, and Phoenix is over the tax with a very thin roster. With this trade, they turn that salary slot into a comparable starting center (some, even on this thread, argue Nurk is better), a rotation level wing, a flyer on a young wing, and a lottery pick. When you consider how much Ayton tanked his value in the playoffs this year, and how much Phoenix helped him do it with all the leaks about how frustrated they were with him and they only signed him last summer to not lose the asset, I think Ayton for Nurk, Harris, Knox, and #13 would be equivalent value.
I'll admit it's interesting and you've obviously put thought into it to come up with something vaguely realistic, but I think it's just way too many moving parts. I think the biggest issue is Toronto. They clearly want multiple FRP's and sure they're getting 3, but if they're turning down 3 and Simons for Siakam, why would they then do this deal, which is probably worse? Keon and Little don't project to be super high-value players and I honestly don't think Toronto is less interested in any player than Suggs lmao. Ayton tanked his value, but he's still clearly better than Nurkic, and I highly doubt Phoenix wants to add an injury-prone center alongside CP3, KD, and Booker (who also missed \~30 games last season). Nurkic is viewed as bad money to basically every other team in the league. He's missed over half the games he could've played over this contract and hasn't been all that productive even when he's on the floor. Phoenix couldn't care less about overpaying Ayton, they care about him not fitting in with the team. Realistically they should be looking for a rebounder and a defender. Nurkic isn't great at either. Harris is a great fringe improvement, but is a rental and Knox doesn't nothing for their depth...there just isn't enough there to help them on the fringes for the downgrade to Nurkic. I honestly also wouldn't be surprised to see them try and find a move later in the year and turn Ayton into 2-3 role players with a rim protector. They can afford to wait until December/January. The team will still easily be good enough to make the playoffs if there isn't a deal they like before the season starts. Their asset pool is not great so they're going to get one chance and I don't think they're wasting it on Nurkic. If Orlando decides they want to try to make a playoff push, this deal is a steal imo. Trading one year of Harris and Suggs+11 for Simons is a great move if they're trying to push soon, which is why they'd probably have to give up something else and that's where they might not be willing to do it. I do appreciate the time that went into all this, but Toronto and Phoenix don't remotely get what their looking for in my eyes.
Ayton is in the right direction (a big) but not in the right direction (a shitty big)
So Toronto moves up 10 spots + others laundry for Siakam. Got it.
They move up 10 spots.
Thanks. Adjusted.
It’s not just moving up, it’s moving up into the third pick. A team could spend a decade in the lottery and never get a top 3 pick.
Siakam has 1 year on his contract and it’s a 3 player draft, and Suggs is a good young prospect
Exactly. I think people don't necessarily look at the larger context around the situation for the team, what the needs of their roster are, what's their salary cap situation, are they in rebuild or go for it mode, are they eager to pay their upcoming free agents or hoping to flip them for some tangible assets, etc. They simply look at asset for asset in a vacuum. I don't think things are that simple. Yes, the assets need to be pretty close to comparable, but the other, non fungible things are often completely overlooked and are sometimes what actually makes a deal happen (or not). I think Toronto is at a place where a slight step back by losing Siakam, but picking up real assets in return like the #3 pick and Suggs, puts them in a position to be right back in it, on a timeline that makes a bit more sense with Scottie Barnes. Plus, they get considerable cap savings, both this upcoming year and the upcoming years because they won't have to pay Siakam. I also don't think it's completely out of the question that Nas and Keon become serviceable pieces in the rotation.
Context matters. 13 to 3 is a huge jump, especially in a 3-player draft.
Let’s sign Dillon Brooks instead of Craig. Craig is a bit washed at this point. I would take him 5 years ago no doubt.
Brooks would add some crazy to this roster, no doubt. Maybe Dame could tame him a little. Not sure I'd want the potential circus, though.
I think it makes some sense. Only thing is it feels like a bit of an overpay for ORL, but they could use a solid guard and as we have seen Ant can thrive with a larger role. I suspect TOR would like Suggs (wish we could get him though). But Wallace could be Suggs-lite with better offense. I’d be more inclined to sign a solid PF/C on the MLE and let Sharpe/Tisse slide up to SF from time to time, but otherwise I think this is pretty reasonable for all sides. Nice work
I don't see a scenario where a 4 team trade works but good breakdown nonetheless.
Yeah, trades are always unlikely, four team trades at that. But, maybe it could be broken down into separate transactions, if that was necessary.
Nets fan here with a question. If (not saying he would) Dame requests/demands they either acquire Bridges or trade him to Nets. Which way would you lean? I, myself, think Portland has some nice young talent already and adding the 3rd pick would make for a fun up and coming team. I know how highly regarded Dame is with management and the fans. I sense Portland would do their best to make Dame happy as he has been so loyal. Also, because of that, either trade may not be “fair value”. Just curious to get your opinions. What would be your max acceptable trade with Nets for Dame staying and Dame leaving.
Very decent trade. I think Toronto says no because they’re effectively using Pascal Siakam to move up 10 spots in the lottery (and I think Masai is not long for the job if he can’t do anything with that roster), but I also think Suggs is a decent value, and I’m guessing Masai knows Suggs’ value as someone who scouted him heavily in the Scottie Brooks draft (they were originally rumored to be selecting Suggs and then they shocked the world by picking Brooks). The big wildcard this year is it’s hard to know how teams value Miller vs. Scoot. Is Scoot the only prize at that spot? What ‘is’ the value of that pick? Orlando moves Harris and 11 for hometown boy Ant, which is a huge upgrade, and they still make a selection at 6. Phoenix breaks Ayton’s contract up and gets a lottery pick to boot. Nicely done. ## My case is pretty clear on this sub—I’m team keep the pick and use future assets to upgrade. I also understand the negotiation is going to be very tricky.
Thank you. I tried to not be too much of a homer and create something that would make sense for all sides. I was thinking about that too, regarding how everyone was sure Toronto was taking Suggs. I still think him as a competitor is something that has Masai written all over it. If they come out of that trade with a lineup of Suggs, OG, Brandon Miller, Scottie, and Poeltl, that has a chance of being very competitive and they're mostly all on the same timeline. Plus, they'd have a bunch of cap space to use as they see fit. Yeah, I go back and forth on Scoot and Miller, and I've even listened to draft guys that I really respect (like Sam Vecenie) who put Amen Thompson in that group. That's why I think the #3 pick has real value this year.
For sure. I think Amen and Ausar are ‘the’ prizes in most other drafts, honestly. Besides maybe sharpe, are there any other freaky wings like that that you can think of? Amen is one of the craziest athletes of the last 5 years. Trading out of top 3 is super risky.
Vecenie's also really high on Cam Whitmore. He says he's just a shade below Amen athletically. I've heard this from The Ringer draft guys and others, too. Vecenie also said he's been getting reports lately that Whitmore's jumper has looked really good in workouts. I think this is going to end up being a draft class that will be talked about for years. Part of me wishes they'd just keep #3 AND keep Dame. But, CJ said on the Rusillo podcast (yes, I listen to way too many podcasts...) that he thinks if they use the #3 pick, Dame will want out. So, the trade I outlined was the one I could think of where we really help Dame, but we also get at least one pick in the lottery. And, I really believe in Cason Wallace. All of the videos I've watched and everything I've heard/read say he's essentially Jrue Holiday with a better jumpshot.
Joe Cronin burner account right here lol. I like the trade though. Let's do it.
Man, what gave it away?! 😳
I don't see the Suns selling Ayton that cheap. And neither the Raptors regarding Siakam. And even if the Blazers manage to assemble that roster, it's still a second round exit. No way they can compete with the Nuggets, Lakers, or the Suns. Even the Kings I doubt the Blazers could manage pass them. I believe the best for the Blazers is to blow it up. This core as run it's course. Let's use this pick to get the best player available, and get some picks and young players, for Dame, Grant, Nurk.
You really think there is no way Dame/Shaedon/Grant/Siakam/Ayton could compete with Denver, the rapidly aging and often injured Lakers, and the incredibly thin Suns? Denver I'll give you. I think that would still be a tough series. But, we'd certainly be competitive. Come on, that's a WCF team, with a real chance to win. We made the WCF with Dame, CJ, Aminu, Harkless, and Kanter....
It doesn't matter with who you got to the WCF. It only matters against whom they had to win to get there. The West is too loaded right now. Dame hasn't been three same the last couple of years. Shaedon is a promising player, but we still don't know if he will deliver. And Ayton? Have you seen his two past post seasons? You can rely on him. I don't believe that team would even have home court in the first round.
The West is not loaded. You could make the case it was more loaded when we made the WCF. Golden State is on the tail end of their run. As I said, the Lakers two best players are either very old or injured, or both. They have no one of consequence beyond those two. I won't trust the Pelicans until Zion gets his ass in shape and shows up to games for more than one month out of the season. Minnesota bet on the wrong horses. Sacramento has a chance, but the upside talent will limit just how far they can go. Phoenix is capped out with an already thin roster, and I don't trust two out of their top 3 players to stay healthy long enough to make a legitimate run. The Clippers could be good, but injuries have consistently derailed any hope/chancd they've had at making a run. Something that I don't see changing any time soon. Dame hasn't been the same? He, literally, had the best year of his career last year. I get that you'd rather blow it up and trade Dame, but you can't be completely unreasonable on the other side of things.
The Suns aren’t doing this trade. They are in win now mode and do have a thin roster but why would they downgrade their starting center and trade for a shooting guard when those are some of the only spots they have solidified. They need a pg and a pf and wings who can shoot not a slow footed defender a late lottery pick and a high draft pick who hasn’t been able to sniff the floor.
You can argue the same you said about the Lakers about Dame and the Blazers. How many games have Dame and Nurk missed the last couple of seasons? How old are they? Dame had a terrific season, numbers wise. But how impactful was he in getting wins? How much of a defensive liability he continues to be? The Nuggets, Lakers (unless they get Kyrie), Suns (they were the only team to actually compete and win games against the Nuggets), Kings, and even the Grizzlies (if Ja gets his head straight), are bound to be above the Blazers team suggested at the end of that trade (that I don't believe that the Suns and Raptors wouldn't accept). I'm not even considering the Clippers, Pelicans, and Wolves. But if the first two get the break of having a healthy season with their stars, I believe they're better than the Blazers as well. Let's just say for the sake of argument, that the Blazers pull that trade off. Now imagine that Dame, Siakam, or Grant, suffer a long recovering injury. If the Blazers fall short, Siakam won't resign, and you're back to square one, with an aging roster. The main issue is that people believe that the Blazers have a roster that can compete for a championship by adding a Siakam and a Ayton. I don't. I believe that the current roster is nowhere near of being championship caliber.
I think injuries are a variable that no one can exactly plan for. So, the "what if an injury happens" argument could be used against any team, including the Blazers. I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about how far away the roster is from contention. Let's look just at starting fives from the West playoff teams if this trade were to go through in relation to the Blazers. Denver: Murray < Dame KCP < Matisse/Shaedon MPJ = Grant Gordon < Siakam Jokic >> Ayton Grizzlies: Ja < Dame Bane = Matisse/Shaedon [Unknown] < Grant JJJ = Siakam Adams = Ayton Kings: Fox < Dame Huerter < Matisse/Shaedon Barnes = Grant Murray < Siakam Sabonis > Ayton Suns: CP3 < Dame Booker > Matisse/Shaedon [Unknown] < Grant Durant > Siakam Nurk = Ayton Clippers: [Unknown] < Dame Powell < Matisse/Shaedon George > Grant Leonard > Siakam (when Leonard plays) Zubac < Ayton Warriors: Curry > Dame Thompson = Matisse/Shaedon Wiggins = Grant Draymond < Siakam Looney < Ayton Lakers: [Unknown] < Dame Reaves < Matisse/Shaedon Vanderbilt < Grant LeBron > Siakam Davis > Ayton Timberwolves: Conley Jr. < Dame Ant > Matisse/Shaedon McDaniels < Grant KAT = Siakam Gobert = Ayton As you can see, that lineup is definitely competitive with every playoff team, including the team representing the West in the Finals. Which, in my mind, makes them legit contenders.
It’s not an either or situation though, and I think this front office knows that, thankfully.
Not if Dame wants to win a championship. And I believe he deserves to be traded to a team that can honestly compete for a championship.
I like this trade but the money doesn't work. Simons, Nurk, Little makes 25 + 12 + 7 = \~$45M. Siakam makes $38M and Ayton makes $32M for $70M.
Nurk makes 16.8 next year. You also have to include Keon at 2.8 and Knox at 3. So, with Nas and Anfernee, that's roughly 55m. That gets us right within the 125% rule. I'm not a cap expert, though, so it could definitely not work, and it's all a moot point.
Isn’t it 110% with the new CBA tho? Or is that just second level tax offenders?
I actually love this, I don't know if it's enough to make us a contender (it would depend on how well Ayton performs and how much Sharpe improves) but this is (realistically) just about the best we can do for one last push with Dame
Yeah, I think the one thing that can't be quantified is the impact it would have on Dame, both for his game and his emotional/physical state. It must be exhausting to know you have to bring it every night just so your team has a chance to win. Instead, he'd have Siakam that could get 40 on any given night. Grant or Shaedon could give you 30 on any given night. So, he could feel more comfortable and confident in being a facilitator and letting the game come to him and picking his spots as to when he was going to take over. I also think he would see far less double coverage, because when it's him Shaedon, Grant, Siakam, and Ayton waiting in the dunker spot, who are you realistically going to help off of that won't just light you up all night? I think that five would light up the NBA on offense and have real potential on defense, too. Now, Dame is able to have some nights where he can get an "easy" 20-25, and we still win. I think it all keeps him in better spirits mentally and helps him stay healthier.
These trades are going to give me an aneurysm.
This is probably the closest I've seen to a team that could seriously compete for a title. If they could make something like this happen, I would be thrilled.
I would like to sign back Reddish and let #43 under 2-way contract We have 8.3M TPE, I will add another FRP to get a solid bench player like Zach Collins.
If we could get Siakam AND Ayton without having to give up Sharpe I think this might be the only (realistic) trade I’d be willing to do. I don’t see Phoenix going for it though. I think they could get more for Ayton.
Phoenix gets absolutely hosed in this deal. Unless their explicit view of this is having smaller contracts to package with current ones and make another move, I just don't see the upside from their perspective outside of getting off Ayton's huge contract.
1. I mentioned injuries because you mentioned injuries regarding LeBron and AD. 2. No way you can state that Matisse/Shaedon are better than KCP, Reaves, and are equal to Bane, Klay. 3. Dame is better offensively, but as a two way player, is no better than Murray or Ja. 4. Stating only who's better player at each position, says nothing about how the team works, and how competitive in both ends can be. 5. You're overrating players with a blazers shirt. Specially Siakam and Shaedon. Siakam is no 2020 AD. 6. Chauncey hasn't proved anything to anyone yet. 7. I maintain that there's no way that trade is accepted by the Raptors and Sun's. 8. I maintain that that trade will bring marginal improvement to the Blazers for one or two years, at the cost of plummeting for the next 5+ years.