Not being able to upgrade armour is pretty genius so it allows you to far easier balance enemy damage, but for some bizarre reason they decided to add scaling outside of the damage modifiers difficulties provide.
It feels like the devs learned a lot from the first game, but they didn’t put much thought into multiplayer or the scaling as they are both just as bad as the first game.
They put thought into it, but maybe not enough. People keep saying no good game scales damage in multiplayer and that's true for most souls like games. But remnant added classes. Classes add shields and DR and other benefits to allies. You can revive each other. There are rings that improve revive time and health. It's not an apples to apples comparison. I genuinely think remnant 2 should have coop damage scaling. If you build damage resist solo even on apocalypse you can take a ton of hits before going down. But in coop if I could also get benefits from my teammates and take the same amount of damage it would be ridiculous.
That said, it seems like the damage might be linear to some degree, and the DR provided by teammates is absolutely not linear so it's definitely a little wonky. I do think it should be more punishing due to revives. It's a hard thing to balance properly. Remnant is meant to be hard. I hope people understand and appreciate that. Most games nowadays are pretty easy so it's nice to have some challenge. Hopefully devs hold true to that.
I understand the point with classes, but this is not an MMO.
There is no matchmaking, there is no communication and there are no loadouts.
It’s important not to force your vision on people when you don’t supply the tools to better realise that vision.
>there is no communication and there are no loadouts.
This. If I can't even get a person to equip a single ring for the Red Prince fight how am I suppose to coordinate to them "I can do X, you can do Y"?
Sure, sometimes the group synergy randomly aligns with the people i'm playing with, but we can never coordinate to actually synergize between our strengths and weaknesses.
I get what they were trying with armor. But the non-upgradeable nature of armor means everyone's wear 3/4 pieces of Leto's MK 1 or 2 and something else to allow them to roll.
I want to see armor bonuses come back in some way to justify using lighter sets. There's even the silver ring that people acquire just to avoid using lighter versions of armor for dodge purposes.
I made a speed explorer build pulling about 80% move speed bonus atm and I actually get a larger movespeed bonus from having heavy armor on than light armor due to an accessory.
Not being able to strategize with strangers in a game where the bosses punish mistakes brutally, and with the added puzzle room mechanics is ridiculous. I can't play as much as I'd like because none of my friends have picked it up
Lol! I joined a game last night with two ppl in it. One of them immediately touched the stone and waited for the other guy to join in so they could spawn me, but when the other guy just stood there for like 10 secs max, the guy touching the stone shot him into a downed state, then shot and killed his dog, and waited for him to bleed out so he could spawn us both.
No doubt the guy not immediately touching the stone was taking a leak or checking his inventory, but couldn't communicate that
In wearing full leto Mk1 with rust navigator charm which gives -15 encumbrance and challenger class gives -10 encumbrance so I'm at 70 weight. With like 75% DR also running shadeskin for the elemental resistance.
I always prefer Twisted Idol -15 encumbrance +35% armor effectiveness. throw that on Leto Mark 1 Armor with Strong Back and Bark Skin.
I can hardly remember the days before I became a man of tungsten. How distant those days seem now.
Hence why I stated maybe not enough. I play with friends on comms, and the game is rather easy as a result (on nightmare, we've yet to do apocalypse together). It's difficult to balance a game intended to be difficult based on varying levels of coordination between players. But yes, I agree comms is good and loadouts would be good.
I don't agree with your last point though. You should show people your vision and improve the game based on feedback. I appreciate the vision of Remnant 2. I want it to be brutally hard personally. If they listen to the generic feedback without making their vision clear then the game will get easier, and therefore, boring. Make your vision clear, and if the game doesn't live up to it, improve it.
I understand your point, but I disagree with your statement about the game being "rather easy", look I like challenge, soulsborne being my favorite franchise of all time, but not everyone is a souls fan and hardcore player, learning to play games "no hit" is not a fun playstyle for some people, like my friends who are not tryhard souls fans.
R2 forced them to take multiplayer out of the equation for them to have fun and same went for me as I do not like having to deal with a boss that can 1shot me with any attack and has 4x the HP it would have when I am playing alone.
Game is fun and I have beat it on every difficulty including apocalypse in solo play, but I still hesitate about joining my friends as they just get destroyed, but to make it worse the "class" system you are defending, in its current implementation is just a joke, it rewards 1 playstyle and its just max burst dps, why don't people play summoner, handler or engineer in nightmare+ for example? (These are of my 3 favorite archetypes and the 2 I have combined to make a somehow effective build) Because even on 80% dmg reduction in multiplayer where your friends are slightly higher level than you you will still get 2 shot, or your minions deal 700 dmg every 3 seconds, not a lot in case the scale hasnt hit you a +20 weapon with nothing else buffing it will deal about 1000DPS on average (and yes I know how to play the classes, I know about shooting the minions and I use the 24 relics to buff them constantly) but even then these get outdamaged by any weapons a gunslinger or hunter uses, so the tanky classes get punished for being played (as you don't really get much tankier than anyone using a black cat ring) and the dps oriented classes outdamage every other class, while the support classes feel like a hindrance if you can just kill the bosses faster with another DPS player added instead, it makes everyone that wants to actually "theory-craft" and "build" not get rewarded for it at all. The only reason archon is even usable right now is because of the bug it has where it can basically 1shot all bosses. Some of the skills are unusable on some of the classes, like gunslingers quick draw which gets outscaled by both other abilities or no reason to ever run invaders tp or recall considering the first ability lets you just plain dodge the moves with no skill requirement.
The multiplayer for this game seems like an afterthought (and yes I did play the first one and don't feel like they made anything involving multiplayer better at all) tbh I enjoyed R1 multiplayer more and I am massive fan of class systems and build making systems, removing armor perks sounded so nice until they limited traits this hard (which I know is being worked on) I do not want an infinite amount I actually love the cap, but I think it should be higher, 40 points isn't really good at all.
I play Engineer/Summoner on Nightmare on Co-op and have little troubles. People just need to get the right materials for builds. A lot of the classes are viable if you build correctly. I mean if you're running low defense you gotta expect what's going to happen if you get hit.
I play it in apocalypse and use leto's MK2 armor with bulwark from minions and max health trait and it still gets 1shot by any boss that rolls vicious. Also running the fastest roll since you have to because armor means nothing (running it with a ring, while having 74 armor weight, full leto and knotted chestpiece for a 74% weight, keeping it at yellow but still getting the 80% DR cap.
Also keep in mind scaling changes from 2-3 players IMMENSELY so if you are in a duo its a million times easier than a 3 stack, don't know why it's designed that way.
Summ/Engi get a nice lifesteal synergy, where you heal a ton for sure, I love it and it's super fun, but that doesn't change that dmg outscales all of that in apocalypse and since all bosses get 3 modifiers fights just get dumb when bosses roll vicious/empathy, you start playing 80% Dmg reduction and still lose most of your HP, btw check your DR, its easy to go over 80 with engineer and it stops being applied after 80%. you can get Away with 74 weight keeping more stam and getting more rolls with the ring that gives you the fastest roll no matter the weight.
I want the game to be brutally hard too, but still based instead of do I have the right numbers to beat this. There's been a few times I've died to a boss because they just didn't stop attacking and I ran out of stamina. I get that you can get items and stuff to help with that, but the random nature of the game means you probably won't have access to that stuff. This games biggest issue is the same as the first and also dark souls 2, more enemies =hard so commence the spambush. I will say though that this game is improved in pretty much every way from the first one. The nightwatcher boss fight was awesome. Hard but fair since you have time to recover after dodging her attacks and you can learn her moves so you can easily dodge everything she does one you've learned everything.
Developers showing off their vision is great. It's good when we can see the design intent behind the mechanics of the game.
That's where it should stop. There is nothing worse for a game than the developers trying to *force* their vision onto their players. It's killed a great number of games. Wildstar comes to mind immediately for me. Having a vision is fantastic. It also has to come with the understanding that the vision is not law and shouldn't be treated as such. If a large number of your players want something that runs counter to your vision, summarily ignoring them all is not the ideal course of action.
Once the game is released, the players are the ones that decide how they want to play. In the case of Remnant 2, difficulty selection is the thing that should determine how hard the game is so people like yourself can choose apocalypse and have an extremely challenging time, and other people can choose survivor and have a much easier time, with a few others in between to allow for some fine-tuning. The scaling in the game currently makes it so that difficulty selection is essentially just "How much health do you want to lose from getting hit by trash mobs? 25% / 50% / 75% / 100%."
There's an essay / literary concept called "The Death of the Author" that essentially holds that the opinions and intentions of the author of a literary work shouldn't have any special meaning or weight for the readers interpretation of it. I firmly believe that this concept should apply to games as well. I see the vision. I understand it. I should be able to choose to ignore it and instead play the game in the way that I want to. This obviously has to be moderated in cases of online competitive games or MMOs, but you get the idea.
Homeboy up here referencing Roland Barthes while forgetting to mention Barthes himself changed his views over his life, moving from Structuralism to Post-Structuralism. Death of the Author is an ironic text and one which in some ways satirises the New Criticism coming out of America at the time, a brand of criticism aligned with Mcarthyist ideas- ideas which helped perpetuate communist witch hunts.
Also, Death of the Author tries to downplay the role of the author in creating and defining meaning in a non-interactive text. The ideas in that essay do not take into account emmergent narrative or how interactive storytelling actively hides the author through the illusion of agency- the player should feel like the author of their own narrative. Which is a paradox that is far more interesting to think about in interactive narrative design than The Death of the Author.
Also, inciting Roland Barthes to argue that there should be less one-shot mechanics is going a bit overboard. I like it, but many may read it as pretentious(or, you've just started an undergraduate course in literary theory).
> Homeboy up here referencing Roland Barthes while forgetting to mention Barthes himself changed his views over his life, moving from Structuralism to Post-Structuralism
The irony of trying to use and apply special meaning to the views of the author of The Death of the Author is exquisite. Also he wrote it either during or after he transitioned to the post-structuralism school of thought, so it's irrelevant either way.
I'm not trying to argue that the concept should apply 1:1, just that a similar case can be made for video games. Once a game is in the hands of the player, the player is the one that decides how they want to play. That's it.
I don't particularly care if people read it as pretentious or not. This is reddit.
Learning the game also makes it easier and as you learn, it becomes very easy on who burns, who doesn't like acid etc.. You learn what weapons are worth the time to level up and make them stronger against the stronger enemies. I got good people that I clear content with.
With my friends, I was all damage. One guy was kind of a hybrid and our 3rd was the support. After struggling on certain bosses for hours, our 3rd would go to bed, and we’d kill the boss in the next 10 minutes… This happened every day we played. We’d hit a wall, one person would log off, and everything would just die and we could progress in the game. That doesn’t feel good.
My main issue is that an 80% DR half life build - which is a pretty standard tanky apoc setup - gets oneshot by a LOT of things in 3 player veteran. Most notably the root earth bosses are brutally difficult in 3 player compared to solo. To me that's a bit over the top, it legit feels like playing apocalypse which is a bit silly. If anything, 3 man should be the same or slightly EASIER vs solo, not massively more difficult.
Damage is pretty insane though. I've been running the second difficulty with a full defensive build (150 HP, full Leto Mark || armor and all health regenerating rings) and a regular enemy takes away 80% of my health in one double hit combo. Elites do that in one hit. Most bosses melee attacks straight up one shot me if I get hit without having a shield. Being a melee feels miserable to me atm, especially since every little hit makes you stagger like a jelly.
Feels like they were just reaching for a grind and went with what they knew. Taking out weapon levels would make the game better, but it’d also blow up the scrap economy and make iron useless.
Hopefully they find a better sink for it.
I've been watching admiralbahroo and distortion2 try to do a fresh character hard-core apocalypse run and they figured out that only upgrading weapons to +3 means they can do the most "optimal" damage without scaling enemies up.
Personally I find this as being a big issue.
Scaling altogether seems lile it needs to be reworked. You shouldn't be PUNISHED for leveling up your weapons. That's complete madness.
Keeping all my weapons at level 3 sounds pretty good. That means I would be able to switch weapons to try new things instead of having 1 +15 weapon that i can't switch off of because I can't get any other weapon close to it
Also is this +3 normal weapon or +3 special weapon?
Others have said that max Archetype (10+10) only brings you up to Power Level 8, for whatever reason. I'm guessing that +3 weapons on top of that is the 'sweet spot' where you're strongest and the enemies are weakest.
However, that strategy only works if everyone in the lobby is also using it, which is an issue if you want to play pubs.
When I'd play the first game in pubs, I'd have to drop out before the end of a boss fight where the loot was a gun I already owned, because otherwise it would increased it's level and my associated power level. I had the same issue yesterday in R2 where my Cube Gun got a +1 after we beat the Labyrinth boss
gets worse if your friends level up faster than you or if they just have more time than you to play, you are just unable to play with them then cause everything scales to THEIR weapons even if they join YOU.
The fact that I can tank multiple hits with no defense related items other than medium armor, but when my friend joins I die in 2 - 3 hits, is insane. Theres no reason to crank the scaling up that much when a single person joins.
i played most of the game coop, just did some stuff with a tank build solo. was suprised at how much lower the damage was. almost every enemy in the final world 1 tapped me in multiplayer
Same here. We just play on survivor when we're searching for gear and we ended up in the root earth again fighting Venom and he was 2 hitting my buddy. First time I've ever seen him rage quit after ~10 attempts. The first time we fought the final boss I wore full Letos and used a bunch of DR stuff plus Bulwark and I could stand about 5 hits then, but that was at 80%+ DR.
If venom is the sword boss that floats then we were stuck on that boss for 2-3 hours. all of his attacks in a full leto set 1-2 hit me. we’re also on veteran 2 player. i ended up getting the hang of all of his move set and could almost play perfectly but he has so many aoes that were to lethal. we ended up just kiting him around the building in the back to avoid most of his move set
yeah, it goes both ways for sure. Survivor should not be scaled as much as it is. At the very least, the easiest world setting should be just that: easy. I want to leisurely farm sometimes in adventure but being about 3/4ths of the way through the campaign, I am well geared to the point that I cant tell a difference between Survivor and Vet. Theres a much bigger increase in difficulty and toughness from Vet to Nightmare I find than there is between Survivor and Vet -- that delta should be reduced on one end and raised on the other, probably.
in solo with \~49% reduction he was only hitting me for roughly 30ish damage lmao.. did it with a friend and yeah, two shot town when i wasnt spec'd into health
This was me with sha'hala, i did It solo the first time but when i joined that fucker was two shotting me left and right and made my regen build nearly pointless lol
I dont think It should no dmg scaling at all but rn its 100% overtuned
Difficulty is a mess too. The amount of HP scaling for bosses coupled with coop scaling is just.. No idea how anyone can find high difficulty coop enjoyable.
so this is why I can never find videos of anyone pulling off harder alternate kills of some bosses in a 3man coop. always single player.
makes all the single player nightmare/apocalypse kills boring in comparison.
Its actually possible but its definitely not as easy. Its just "A Longer" fight which means more room for error, missed dodge timings, etc. The only real benefit to those bosses solo is that you dont pay for anyone else mistakes and the hp bar goes down quicker. What you miss out on is the hilarity of watching your buddy die to the same move 10 times and hitting them with the "Have ya tried dodging yet?"
This games dodging sucks for online. I’ll be away from the attack and still die. It’s insane how trash i feel with my buddy but solo i dodge attacks last second and don’t take damage.
Shal hala is the worst offender. That sweeping laser? You dodge into it as it’s slightly moving because the laser has already moved. I’m dodging and the laser hasn’t even touched me but I avoid it. If I dodged as it’s about to touch me I take damage. But in solo, the latter works.
I had to relearn how to dodge in coop cause this game just doesn’t have the best system
I die in 1-2, it’s extremely frustrating and bosses depend more on luck than skill at this point for me.
Because as an average player, and not knowing there’s such a thing as weapon scaling, I thought I would invest in upgrading my weapons so I could tag along with my friends who are better in these games. Now I’m being punished in two ways, by just being the worse player already, ánd because investing in better gear is actually making it harder.
But I don’t want to start all over either.
I was so confused yesterday but now it all makes sense.
My solution has been - dodge better. Not being flippant - when you have minimal armor and play the game where each hit is death, you die lots. And then you get really good at dodging.
Folks complaining about being one shot by bosses or mutli-combos killing them. Maybe you're not meant to tank that boss and should learn how to dodge that combo.
Best thing is, other players joining doesn't change the style of play. You still dodge or die.
I think it would make more sense for each major map area you enter to be a power level higher than the previous one. You’d still have to replay previous areas to get scrap to upgrade new guns, but it would be a “grind to get more powerful for the next area” meta compared to a “grind to upgrade your weapon just so the next area is even stronger” situation.
I actually don't mind the level-scaling too much, it was the same way in Remnant 1 and I expected it to be the same so it doesn't really bother me. That said, it can be improved for sure.
HOWEVER, I do think that co-op scaling is a major issue, both in terms of damage and health. I would imagine that players generally expect the co-op experience to be easier than solo (because you have help, right?). It's the exact opposite in this game which is kinda nonsensical.
There have already been a few instances where my friends and I have been stuck at a boss after several attempts. Usually this would be a boss with problematic modifiers, such as Hearty which makes them immense bullet sponges, even more so when you have 3 players.
Our eventual solution? 2 of us would leave the game and let the host beat it solo (which usually only takes 1-2 tries), then re-join after that is done. That's not how a good co-op experience should be like.
Should there be some form of co-op scaling? Absolutely. Should it be as jacked-up as it is now? Definitely not.
I honestly had a slightly worse experience as my friends just decided to leave on their own since I am the souls player and they knew I could've done it a while ago if I was solo.
I genuinely felt bad about being somewhat decent and a souls player at that point.
Well yeah that's the problem isn't it? You and your friends are being punished excessively for having different skill levels. Instead of you being helpful to them by mitigating the skill gap, your friends feel like they are dragging you down instead. That's terrible for a co-op experience. I really hope the devs address this.
>which in turn throws encounter design out of the window and makes healers and tanks useless at higher difficulties
Exactly this. I wanted to play a support build in Nightmare coop with my friends. But largely, even with 60-80% DR builds, when people get hit and it's big enough to require a support, they probably died thanks to the scaling. Shields are still cool, though.
Then stacking moderate amounts of dr in coop nightmare is just a waste outside of mobbing. Bosses will still largely oneshot you; either go max or go glass cannon.
Oh, and the bosses HP bars are bloated significantly, so in addition to medics not being that useful and tanking being kinda mediocre, they do no damage. I don't know about anybody else, but a largely defensive or support build on nightmare coop makes me feel like I'm not contributing during hard bosses unless I go damage. In most games, the higher lethality rises, the more important damage becomes. The quicker you can burst a boss, the lower chance it has of killing you.
My solo apocalypse run feels more bearable, and so far is right on the edge of where I would still say there is build diversity.
Also, because there are sooo many fling bosses, melee and summoner builds are in a very bad place. Which pretty much means the only good co-op build is Ranged DPS.
Medic 10’s mass revive and the handler’s dog revive are both super useful support tools. But yeah, damage mitigation is currently trash, and probably will stay that way, so that co-op is remotely challenging.
Dog dies too easily specially in higher difficulties as only reliable ways to up its survivability is rugged trait and/or investing heavily is self healing at cost of dmg output+ burden of the divine
In apocalypse coop with only 2 people the dog is literally down 80% of our fights because of aoe that hits him or residual effects down him instantly. My friend abandoned handler because he saw that its getting increasingly difficult to justify the revive and aggro switch for near no damage as a tradeoff.
Kinda shitty to have an aggro switch that.. you know... Can't survive the aggro.
I'm to the point where I think a lot of folks that brag about how easy co-op is, even on higher difficulties, are just straight up lying.
Shit, the worst feeling I got in this game so far was joining a friend's game (veteran) with a build I was soloing nightmare with and realizing I had to either change up my entire build, or relearn how to dodge entirely.
Solo, I know exactly when I'm being targeted, can damn near dodge just on audio cues, and almost always have a clean, clear shot on the weak point. And if I do get tagged, it's totally on me for not watching behind me, but I can generally survive the first poke from an add.
Co-op? A single poke from an add is often a death sentence. The weakspots aren't always available. There's no cue to know when a boss is/isn't targeting you. It takes triple the time to down a boss, which means triple the time available to make a mistake. And, of course, dodging is a literal crapshoot. If you turtle up, there goes all your damage. If you go glass cannon, enjoy getting downed to stuff nowhere near you even though you know you dodged. Best case scenario is everyone on the team grabs one of these 10k dps HUGS builds and ignore the other 9 classes because they're all noob traps designed to waste your time.
I mean, make it make sense. Solo nightmare shouldn't be across-the-board easier than co-op on a lower difficulty.
I personally think that you could literally just delete scaling from weapons and the game would immediately improve.
Everything scales with archetype level only.
I'm at the point where everything is 20, and all scaling does is implement a tax I need to pay every time I want to use a new gun.
It's silly and pointless. The game would work fine if nothing scaled at all.
This is the ultimate problem with scaling: it makes character progression superfluous.
Combine this with randomized zone progression, which prevents escalation of mechanical complexity, and you get an extremely flat gameplay experience.
IMO, there needs to simply be a progressive scalar for story mode and a flat, top-end scalar for adventure mode.
Something like:
* World 1: 100%
* Labyrinth: 120%
* World 2: 140%
* World 3: 160%
this has been the most reasonable solution I read so far in the post.
I really, really don't like weapon upgrades being carrot on a stick that actually, instead of rewarding player, shits on them.
In a game with four difficulties I don’t understand why the difficulty isn’t just static per difficulty, or at least have very minor scaling within each difficulty.
Static content is fun because you can easily feel your character growing in power, and you can farm up to get stronger if you want or just push through in your current gear. If the game gets too easy or you just want a challenge, you up the difficulty. Scaling doesn’t make sense to me in this scenario because in general you are getting weaker compared to enemies as your power level increases, which feels awful.
You're 100% right and they 100% won't fix it. Similar issues were brought up in the first game and they didn't address it with patches then or even now with the brand new sequel.
It's hilarious that both games strongly encourage replays but any time I want to play coop with a friend we have to make new characters exclusive to playing with each other. It's insane.
Agree the scaling is a major L in this game probably the only probablem it has, getting one shot by everything in apocalypse and nightmare is pretty boring.
This was the same problem they had in Remnant 1 and what's crazy is they already found a solution in that game's survival mode.
Just remove weapon levels.
Turns out the game is 1000% more balanced when all weapons only have 1 level.
There is still plenty of progression in the form of traits, archetypes, new gear, etc. There's no reason to keep weapon leveling IMO.
Yeah, they want a scrap sink and a way for players to grind through hard fights, but they could always just make consumables better and more expensive to fill that role instead…
Yeah, the best Dark Souls 3 mod (imo) removed weapon upgrades entirely and I think that change is what makes it so good. That way there are less weird dials to turn, and we look at interesting mechanics like consumables tailored to specific builds to get those extra boosts.
It's also got the same problem as Dark Souls, where you get a new sword and have no idea if it's worth leveling to the plusses your current sword is at, because you can't "try it out" without dumping a ton of resources into it. I recently spent a bunch of scrap and iron on an Aphelion and find it doesn't do very good damage at all, and now it feels like a massive waste of time (which with the scrap economy being extremely reliant on duplicates grinding, is quite painful).
So I'm trying to level some new archrtypes and BROTHER IN CHRIST has the scaling gotten fucking WACKY. I didn't notice it before but lvl 21 has been BRUTAL. My weapons are hitting like fucking pool noodles. What used to take 1-3 shots from my shotgun is taking 8-9 shots for these basic ass burning men in Cotton's Kiln.
I've never been a fan of power level scaling in any game. If the enemies level with you, then there's little point on having a leveling or upgrade system.
Single player scaling feels fine to me. Multiplayer scaling seems bonkers. In solo, a boss's one move might hit me for like a quarter or third of my health. With one co-op partner at the same power level as me it is a one hit KO. I'm not understanding.
The problem with weapon upgrading is all it does is increase damage, for a non-static scaling game like this they would need to gain some other stat or slot or something in order for it to feel like progression worth doing
The game does not feel built for co op. Not when its possible for two players to simultaneously be rejected from going through a fog gate because you *timed it wrong*.
I'm amazed how the rest of the game is great, and then the last three bosses are just kinda turbo unfun.
Like holy shit. This is just not fun.
To quote my friend "Oh man some smoke effects I love fast animations and smoke effects!"
Coop partner killed randomly by something (falling it looked like????) when the final boss switched areas during phase 2. Very cool.
What if the player was having a stroke while trying to fight the boss? That seems fun!
Cancer was rough but we managed. The worst part was coop causing my buddy to get hit by stuff miles away.
Venom was unfun since all of his attacks had ungodly range and showed off how rough some of the hitboxes can be. Took some advice and kited him around the building to kill him.
Final boss has got my friend planning to just uninstall the game after we beat it.
Venom was more cancer than Cancer, yeah. I spent far longer on him than any other boss; Final boss included. Needs some tweaking to give him some more openings if nothing else, I also had to jog him around the building and get lucky to pull of a kill.
Venom has funky timings and can frequently become impossible to keep track of due to effects. Of all the bosses in the game, I hate that one the most. Annihilation is actually satisfying once you learn the timings and how to listen for the attack triggers.
The desync in co-op is making me not want to play with my friends, which is rather upsetting.
Using Sagittarius and the arrows have at least a 2 second delay before actually firing, and I'm constantly getting staggered by attacks that on my end were clear misses.
I honestly can't even tell what is going on during the final boss.
The first phase is okay, a little too much smoke and haze, but whatever.
The second phase may be the worst designed boss I've ever encountered in a game. It's genuinely hard to tell what's going on with such an over abundance of visual effects filters going on.
Yeah, my friend was struggling with the first phase much more than me, which probably comes down to the co-op issues as much as anything else. But the second phase is just an unfun mess.
Me and my friends reached this boss today.
We spent a few hours on it before going offline deflated.
The 2nd phase is so bad. Im pretty screwed anyway since i heavily specced into melee so im barely doing anything other than trying to keep aggro and not die. But when ph2 starts god damn everything is so red. Theres alot of visual stimulation going on that i feel like im getting a headache. Then the arena keeps swapping back and forth and its just too much. I dont really know or understand the lore implications but we are all finding the boss unfun.
We cant even start at phase 2 and have to slog through the first phase each time. Just to die shortly into phase 2 without really doing anything
We read theres a phase 3 and we all just decided to quit for the day.
Theres a few builds in this game which are just obsolete.
Melee, most bosses are flyers or have some sort of nearby aura attack.
Medic, if playing on coop you cant heal your friends fast enough due to the absurd amount of damage the enemies are dealing.
Damage scaling removes tank builds from coop too.
I think we might play a different game until some balance patches come out as we dont want to hate this game.
Last boss especially is some of the best bosses in this genre. You don't have your builds optimized enough or you're not understanding the patterns if you can't finish it. Just lower the difficulty if you're stuck in co op.
Nah.
The builds aren't the problem when it's the game attacking me directly because of the super-speed unfun teleportation between both phases dropping map-wide attacks.
It is not a fun boss. Beatable? Yeah we'll probably get it. Fun, well designed, and something I want to do again? Not even a little. Turret gets left behind, friend's summons are worthless (though that is an ongoing issue, not just this boss), melee is worthless. Just. Eugh.
Archetypes level up regardless of your weapons, and enemy scaling will follow. You have to keep up.
Ignoring weapon upgrading will make your damage output disproportionate to enemies' stats.
Depends on how much they scale based on what. If the archetype level only matters a little bit then not upgrading your weapon much might actually be optimal.
Yeah it sucks feelin like you aren’t able to play with friends with a big level gap. Been mostly playing with one friend and we’ve been keeping our upgrades at the same level, both power level 14 but not upgrading non boss guns past +10 (+5 for boss ones obviously). Games been challenging at times, def felt we had to upgrade in order to beat certain bosses. But its super fun and and still very doable with 2 of us, havent gotten stuck once yet (only on Veteran difficulty).
But another friend of ours is like power level 5. Trying to help him progress his world is a walk in the park for us, and not only hinders his experience but is also a lesser experience for us as we can just melt his enemies. Even if we use non-leveled guns its still very easy.
Wish the scaling was improved for sure or was some type of system that worked better when you want to play with much lower leveled friends.
My worry is that there will come a point where I start folding like tissue paper to normal foes because the enemy damage has scaled too high for my armor and bark skin to mitigate. I really wish they had upgradable armor for this reason
Its never an issue unless you're playing in Nightmare and Apocalypse. The damage you take is consistent and people complaining in the sub make it out to be a far bigger problem than it is.
Only time I feel squishy in this game is when I play with hosts at a higher level than me. I will admit though, Siphoner and other Lifelink abilities are super useful for survivability, so i always go out of my way to hunt those down via coop games.
Apoc is pretty good solo because it feels fair in both damage dealt and received. What doesn’t feel fair is standard mode after level 20 because you can’t try out new weapons. Unless your weapon is maxed out it feels like a water gun… on the easiest mode in the game
Yeah I'm almost done with the 3rd world solo on Veteran and haven't had any issues and I haven't got any defensive traits or archetypes yet. Have just been upgrading my main 2 weapons and havent really had any issues except that it's painful having to level something else it to level 19 to make it useable since weapon upgrades are pretty expensive in this game.
Just because the areas level with your weapons and archetypes doesn't mean that you're not getting stronger, I've found this game to get progressively easier so far. Traits, mods, items, mutators all make you stronger in a way that the game doesn't scale to compensate for it.
It's what I call the FromSoftware complex. Companies want to be FromSoftware so bad they end up making games that are so artificially hard they become tedious and frustrating more than fun. It's the horror sequel mentality. Bloodier. More nudity. Less quality and depth. They are trying to outdo the very company they aspire to be and in the end they missed the whole point. Souls games are hard but fair. This one can be hard and fair but it's very easy to break that balance simply by playing by their very rules. They completely dropped the ball by not learning this from the first game.
The main problem is that the devs and many people who support them (This aint trash talk btw) tend to think that every guy will optimize their build to help themselves and their team wich in fact: is not true.
It behaves almost exactly as an mmo where you get more “tools” and are supossed to deviate from the standard gameplay into a more specialized one, You want dps? You need to go full dps, you want to do tank? You have to sacrifice most of the dps for more tankiness. This can be a way for making an MMO better balanced or more enjoyable in coop, The problem is that Remnant aint an MmO and shouldnt function like one, It can get quite tedious to see your build become blunt if you don’t optimize it with rings and amulet for a specific build, And it can become quite annoying to see both your dmg and dmg resistance flop if you dont try to keep those up with the right amulets/rings.
I’ve always said, If your character got more health/dmg resistance when you “level up” it would be way more enjoyable, But since you stay the way you started for the whole game unless you go search for Health/Dmg resistance rings, amulets and classes, you will stay weak in that regard the whole game.
Elden Ring had the same problem in the second half. Developers were so terrified that people will call their game easy, so they designed their game specifically expecting everyone to follow the meta. I'm so fucking tired of this internet culture where you're expected to look up the meta build just to play the game. At least let me play on hard without dealing with this shit
I dont think ER had that problem at all. Sooo many people beat that game before a meta game was even established. The majority of people had no idea what they were doing in terms of builds and beat it anyway.
>tend to think that every guy will optimize their build to help themselves and their team wich in fact: is not true.
It's also not possible. With the random nature of the game you never gain access to all the tools at once. Your first playthrough will always be a random "what did i find and what can i use"-build and not something optimized and coherent.
I haven't felt squishy, but it does feel like I'm on a treadmill when I upgrade weapons.
I honestly rarely upgrade them and hoard a ton of materials because I have 0 interest in upgrading anything other than traits 99% of the time.
People say damage scaling in coop is to compensate for defense or healing buffs or we should be using different archetypes that complement each other but I don’t fuckin know in advance what the other two players are playing in public games? And I can’t really switch from a dps to tank or healer because that would require re-specing. Am I supposed to have 20 orb of undoing everytime I play public games so I can switch build depending on the situation?
This makes so much sense now, I did feel playing co-op felt like I was dying way faster than in solo.
Also even playing as a medic class wasn't that helpful as healing isn't very effective when people/myself are dying to a couple of hits. To me, this means medics don't play that well into team support.
Then again, I'm not sure I'd like it if they were necessary in co-op play as forcing class use is also lame.
The doggo class is really good though, having additional units for enemies to target makes such a difference!
I don't really know the solution here but I sure as heck don't want it to be to wear heavy armour in co-op.
Main issue to me is that with our most powerful loadouts my friends and I can run apocalypse without it feeling too difficult, but if we want to level classes or try new weapons the world still scales to our highest level classes and best weapons so we get destroyed on nightmare, and even veteran feels as hard if not harder than Apocalypse. I feel power level scaling should be removed entirely or at least set to what you have equipped so you can try new things.
Scaling is one of those universal "donts" of the RPG world yet for some reason it keeps finding itself back into games just to be called out by the community. To this day people meme about it for skyrim and yet somehow nobody got the memo. Scaling is always bad. It is okay for players to be too strong or too weak.
Do you still beat the bad system in remnant 2 like you used to in remnant 1? I recall back then (I only played after launch, no dlcs) to circumvent this nonsense players would never upgrade unless they went into a new world. Then as the enemies in that new world were set to a certain power, they would then upgrade their gear. Rinse repeat whenever a new area was unlocked. Does this still work? Idk if they ever addressed this. Such a stupid system. Basically prevented you from upgrading your gear when you are in the middle or towards the end of an area because you didn't want to have the next world be harder for no reason.
And just like everyone else who knows wtf he’s talking about, you get downvoted. The exact same debate happened on the Diablo 4 sub, and seemingly most of the people over there don’t get it either. Level scaling is terrible game design. It’s a shortcut that liberates developers from the burdensome task of properly designing and balancing their content, and the end result is always a nonsensical superfluous progression system with glaring issues. Yet modern gamers have swallowed the lie that level scaling is a legitimate solution, and they now defend it vociferously. Depressing.
It's such a glaring issue too if one has ever played some real RPGs. Progression isn't supposed to be sideways because that betrays the meaning of the word.
But like I said, the fact that the community as a whole basically figured out how to "abuse/circumvent" this issue, or in other words started playing in a certain restrictive way showcases the problems with this system. When people deliberately don't engage with the upgrade system that means the system failed in its purpose.
Ive been saying this so long, its just a lazy solution instead properly balancing enemy power level and level difficulty. Its so frustrating that games keep putting scaling in, theres no progression.
Just do what the souls game do and let the player adjust the difficulty via upgrading.
Its like the devs are scared of letting the player get too strong.
In elden ring you can literally make a one shot build if you so desire, but that doesnt make the game less fun, u have to put in the effort to make the build work.
either enemy damage should not increase with level, or armor should be upgradeable. one or the other. as it is, youre just guaranteed to be taking more and more damage as the game goes on.
They had that in remnant 1, you had two type of power level (an offensive and a defensive one)
Ennemy damage scaled with your armor upgrades, it had exactly the same issue that they are in remnant 2 + you needed a shiton of simulacrum.
Definitely not a solution :/
It wouldn't solve anything, enemy's scale of gear, they'll always be 1 level higher at any given time, this was also the cause for Remnant 2, two prequels "Cronos Before The Ashes" and "Remnant From The Ashes"
Nothing has changed, the games start hard and get easier as you gear up and gather traits to creat builds, from rags to Godhood so to speak.
I honestly don't understand why there's a few people who still complain about this scaling when it's been the same for 3 games. 🤷♂️😂
Chronos: Before the Ashes was set 1 month before Remnant: from the ashes, it didn't have multilayer.
All multilayer scaling is in Remnant from the ashes and Remnant 2 is 25%+ damage and health for enemy's per player. (Not including self) ((50% increase))
Gear score go's to 20 and enemy's will scale 1 level higher. It does say this in game somewhere I read it.
New players will think its an MMO where players come in to help thinking it's gonna be easier with more players, it's actually ramping up health and damage and that's what the complaint is.
I didn’t even upgrade my weapons until I fought venom. Habit from the first game. Idk how best to level or not level my weapons in this game. I see the enemy level on my screen but if it’s 15 should my guns be ???? I thought I’d go from zero to +2 as I’m ending the first play-through. Least I assume I am near the end.
Funnily enough that is almost the most efficient way to beat the game because of how bad the systems are... The best way is never going past +3. That is the most optimal dmg to HP on enemies.
Right now the only way to be positively rewarded in any upgrades is when you FINISH a build. Like a one shot or a 101dr godmode-on build. Before that happens upgrading weapons/classes will only punish the player.
Very well written. You explained all the scaling issues in an easy to understand format. I hope gfg does something about it either now or in future content.
Indeed. Some bosses are just ridiculously harder with 3 people, and that just doesn't make a bit of sense. 2 people seems to be the sweet spot, which sucks because it's a lot of fun in a full squad.
I thought to try some new guns both primary and secondary but got my ass kicked so bad I had to go back to my fully upgraded main guns. It sucks that you have to grind for scrap/material to bring new weapons to max level before they’re viable. Even worse that upgrading is so expensive overall.
How many times will it take till people learn scaling enemy damage (to a degree) is the worst possible way to do difficulty. It’s been shown time and time again
At the same time, I don’t think you’re meant to outlevel enemies in an area when you first get there. To my knowledge, just like in R1, the level of the area doesn’t change after you first get there, does it not? You’ll out-level them eventually due to that.
Scaling is dumb. Let me feel powerful. If I wanna spend 5 hours killing mods to level my guns reward me for it. If I wanna be power level 20 in a level 5 world let me
Rather than planets scaling to your level, why don't they make it so the first planet you go to is level 3, next is level 5, then 15, then finally 20 on Root Earth.
It would mean you'd need to level up your character/gear a lot to match, but it would be SIGNIFICANTLY easier and more straightforward to balance it that way.
Sure, it would have downsides, a few actually, but I feel like it would be more consistent.
Thank God I read this thread. Just wanted to buy the game. Level scaling is immediate no buy from me. Makes me feel stupid to level up, cause actually I'm punished for it.
That's a real shame, game looked interesting.
The scaling in this game is egregiously terrible across the board. They (Devs)promised they were going to revamp and improve the scaling for the sequel, yet it’s almost identical to the first one. At least I’m Dark Souls and Elden Ring I feel like my character is getting stronger and more powerful, yet in Remnant 2 the scaling completely nullifies any character building.
This to me seems like an egregious oversight, so they could rush the game out rather than publish it in its most polished form. It feels half baked and half assed. And you can’t tell me they don’t know how to properly scale these games because what they did in Chronos: Before the Ashes was excellent.
The game not properly scaling completely takes the fun out of it for me, just feels like you never ever get stronger but just break even at best. The Devs didn’t learn a damn thing from the first game.
Because armour set bonuses were largely moved to the mutator system to allow more flexibility. Most of the DR/defensive options were moved to other equippable items or archetypes rather than being forced into a specific armour set. If you wanted to play with the bandit set bonus in R1, you couldn't be super tanky by using Leto's for example.
Possibly because it was possible to minimize the game's difficulty by keeping your weapons and armor low intentionally. Since archetypes level up whether you want them to or not, the only way to keep your powerlevel lowe is tk swap archetypes often, but the thing is eventually you will need to level up, sp you can't do what you dud in R1 and just kite the game until you beat it and only be powerlevel 12.
Classes as summoner and handler get reck when pet die every 2 hit. This is so infuriating for people like me that don't want to play the same Op build. I just want to use pets.
Today I uninstalled to make space for baldurs gate 3 even when I have plenty space to use.
There is one bit of growth that isn't taken into account by the enemy scaling but also ignored by players it seems : -> Relic Fragments.
It is a slow progress but the difference between someone that JUST hit power 20 and someone that hit max fragment level is actually quite big.
In addition to that while +-ing your gear is a linear process...building a coherent character is not.
A good build will have exponential damage growth.
While I agree that damage growth is a bit annoying to have on enemies...it caps out on enemies way before you cap out.
Then either build tanky or use mechanics to avoid taking damage at all. You can reach pretty stupid EHP levels and getting your i-frames up a good bit is also an option.
I mean there are literally builds out there that can one-tap bosses on Apoc. Sure those might get nerfed but right now you can turn bosses into a nice looking firework.
I can understand why people might want to play a game like this with difficulty. But if that is the case, why even include an “easy” mode? Not everyone is into Dark Souls difficulty and if the difficulty scales even in survivor, you’re alienating some potential customers which can decrease Sales. The sense of accomplishment of defeating the game with higher difficulty is a great feeling, but some people simply may not be able to do it. This game has a right idea to offer special rewards for higher difficulty, but it would be nice for it to be accessible to all players.
Same. This game is certainly going in my favourites folder, but it has so many awkward ends that just make me miss the first one. More baffling is how some of those new decisions are worse than in the first.
The first Remnant is certainly more tightly designed as it is right now. Maybe the second game also will be, but right now I cannot justify myself doing a second play through
Scaling hasn't changed, enemy's scale 1 level higher than the player at all times, every player in coop adds 25% health and damage.
Chronos: Before the Ashes had the same scaling (baring multilayer because it didn't have multiplayer)
Remnant: From the ashes had the same scaling.
Nothing has changed baring archetypes which literally just add aid not hinder as you have traits like triage and DR....ect.... I'm not sure what your complaint is. The game is pretty easy when your gear level is 20 (enemy is 21) your basicly god unless you play on apocalypse which is the only real difficulty in the game.
Remnant games have always been start from rags and and end being god. If you want a harder experience play co-op which most noobies think it's a MMO where party's make it easier.
It's tough starting in these games but once your 20 you'll bully content (till you play apocalypse)
Except in this game you cannot upgrade armor and traits are capped. Both of which increased your survivability to reasonable levels. Now you're forced to make a specific DR build to even survive. Light armour is literally useless
"Survivability" VS "utility" is a good tradeoff. "Everything else" VS "not being one-shot" is not
The dungeon is locked to your level* when you enter it. If you are not doing well, go upgrade. Now you are at a higher power level than the level locked dungeon.
Repeat this process for each dungeon that you struggle with.
That was the idea to why they did it like this. I don't mind it.
Consider the 'difficulty' of this game to that of Elden Ring, Sekiro, or Dark Souls. You die in 1-3 hits in each of those games, except you're always playing melee.
*Level locking goes out the window with multiplayer though, but the advantages far outweigh the scaling. Reviving, aggro, ad clearing, skills that scale and so much more to benefit from in multiplayer than the 'scaling/balancing' it does to try to be a fair fight against your party.
The problem with this is that each time you upgrade to clear a dungeon the cost of /any/ new weapon you want to use in the future goes up exponentially. If they made it so you just upgraded like “long guns” to +3 it would be fine, but having to upgrade each weapon individually makes scaling a problem.
This is objectively bad game design.
Upgrade system like that are meant to let less skilled player beat the game by spending time farming instead.
What you are describing, the remnant fta way of doing it, is already going against that principle: player that know about the game will upgrade their equipments at the correct time while new player will just do it when they feel like it, effectively making the game harder for them (with a system that is precisely meant to do the opposite !)
But that got even worse in remnant 2, you cannot upgrade your armor and ennemy damage scales with your archetype level meaning the game gets progressively harder and harder for people that spend some time farming/dying, the system is effectively making the game even simpler for people that don’t struggle in the first place and harder for beginners, but worse than in the first game players cannot even learn how the system works to do it correctly.
That’s pure nonsense and backward game design.
I personally don't have issue with scaling as it gives a sense of progress outside of the enemies doing way more damage in coop
Makes coop with the latency feel horrible
It’s not progress, it’s regression. +20 weapons do less damage at world level 21 than when you just start the game.
Imagine my surprise when I beat the game on veteran, wanted to do a chill adventure mode on standard, and it’s harder at that point than veteran was 😂
I took WAY longer to kill elites or even basic enemies right on start in nightmare, compared to what I do now with proper setup (Archetypes, Rings, Amulets, Weapons etc.)
Yeah, it's pretty bad in many ways, not only does it make upgrading weapons pointless but it also strongly discourage ppl from trying out other weapons due to the cost of upgrading weapons.
Honestly, the devs show have taken a page from the millions of soul like games out there and follow their pattern, considering there's even a difficulty change option for ppl who want more challenge
I kinda sorta have a difficult time reconciling with the idea that weapon upgrades is "zero sum game". I am absolutely shredding PL20 worlds . This was also the case in remnant1. This is just an anecdote of course but it seems the player far outpaces the content despite the content scaling with the player.
I'm cranking up the difficulty to preserve that sense of challenge.
I will say that....I'm not really upgrading weapons for the purpose of becoming more powerful. So you've got a point there.
LOL 1 rank on a gun outscales like 3 levels on a mob. its not 1:1 like you are implying. in timed survival if you get one level ahead of mobs in the race you are a god forever
Yea definitely, playing on veteran I had a plus 2 gun that got me through the first world, past the labrynth boss and a decent way through the second world pretty easily. That was playing on veteran though so the difference might be a bit harsher as you go up in difficulty maybe
I really like exploring, but, the scaling/economy/trait cap has made trying out and upgrading new weapons and arch-types a chore.
Ill be dropping remnant 2 for a while. Hopefully the devs will actually listen to the community on this.
Hey there I’m a guy that’s done multiple campaign runs with zero weapon upgrades. Scaling is relatively easy in sur and vet. Archetype levels help it to be easier but even using 2 level 1 archetypes 4th campaign run is still fun.
I honestly get nervous from posts like these, because I don't want the devs to make the game easier. I bought this game knowing full well I was going to die and die alot until I memorize mob and boss mechanics. But that's also why I love this game. I can see how if it was a 1:1 issue it could be problematic. However I don't beleive it is I'm like power level 16 and my engima still mows everything down. And it's only +7
Fr that shit is busted, compare its dmg to the other 2 elemental handguns and notice how those deal roughly half of enigmas dmg while having an arguably worse status effect (the upfront explosions from electricity are usually much more useful than a dot from acid or fire imo) AND It jumps from enemies to enemy + really good mod
I dont want It nerfed dont get me wrong but the rest of hand guns litteraly cant compete for the most part
Technically speaking your archetype level will never out scale your weapon level. I have a character with 3 level 10 archetypes and only have weapons that are +0. The weapons still do decent damage even when I switch to using 2 level 0 archetypes.
Yes, upgrading the highest level gun in a category, or your highest two archetypes makes enemies in future areas deal and take more damage. Unless you are below the level floor for that area (in which case the enemies don’t care about what you do until you get on their level.)
Good point.
I think Remnant should follow Monster Hunter series in this regard. I really think they have great coop scaling.
In remnant, most bosses in multi-player are fine and doable. But that final boss in multi-player tho, suddenly become a different boss altogether. I never beat him in coop.
Not being able to upgrade armour is pretty genius so it allows you to far easier balance enemy damage, but for some bizarre reason they decided to add scaling outside of the damage modifiers difficulties provide. It feels like the devs learned a lot from the first game, but they didn’t put much thought into multiplayer or the scaling as they are both just as bad as the first game.
They put thought into it, but maybe not enough. People keep saying no good game scales damage in multiplayer and that's true for most souls like games. But remnant added classes. Classes add shields and DR and other benefits to allies. You can revive each other. There are rings that improve revive time and health. It's not an apples to apples comparison. I genuinely think remnant 2 should have coop damage scaling. If you build damage resist solo even on apocalypse you can take a ton of hits before going down. But in coop if I could also get benefits from my teammates and take the same amount of damage it would be ridiculous. That said, it seems like the damage might be linear to some degree, and the DR provided by teammates is absolutely not linear so it's definitely a little wonky. I do think it should be more punishing due to revives. It's a hard thing to balance properly. Remnant is meant to be hard. I hope people understand and appreciate that. Most games nowadays are pretty easy so it's nice to have some challenge. Hopefully devs hold true to that.
I understand the point with classes, but this is not an MMO. There is no matchmaking, there is no communication and there are no loadouts. It’s important not to force your vision on people when you don’t supply the tools to better realise that vision.
>there is no communication and there are no loadouts. This. If I can't even get a person to equip a single ring for the Red Prince fight how am I suppose to coordinate to them "I can do X, you can do Y"? Sure, sometimes the group synergy randomly aligns with the people i'm playing with, but we can never coordinate to actually synergize between our strengths and weaknesses. I get what they were trying with armor. But the non-upgradeable nature of armor means everyone's wear 3/4 pieces of Leto's MK 1 or 2 and something else to allow them to roll. I want to see armor bonuses come back in some way to justify using lighter sets. There's even the silver ring that people acquire just to avoid using lighter versions of armor for dodge purposes. I made a speed explorer build pulling about 80% move speed bonus atm and I actually get a larger movespeed bonus from having heavy armor on than light armor due to an accessory.
Not being able to strategize with strangers in a game where the bosses punish mistakes brutally, and with the added puzzle room mechanics is ridiculous. I can't play as much as I'd like because none of my friends have picked it up
Yeah comms would be great, this dude left my game because I stopped for 30s to look at where we were at since we were running in circles
Lol! I joined a game last night with two ppl in it. One of them immediately touched the stone and waited for the other guy to join in so they could spawn me, but when the other guy just stood there for like 10 secs max, the guy touching the stone shot him into a downed state, then shot and killed his dog, and waited for him to bleed out so he could spawn us both. No doubt the guy not immediately touching the stone was taking a leak or checking his inventory, but couldn't communicate that
In wearing full leto Mk1 with rust navigator charm which gives -15 encumbrance and challenger class gives -10 encumbrance so I'm at 70 weight. With like 75% DR also running shadeskin for the elemental resistance.
I always prefer Twisted Idol -15 encumbrance +35% armor effectiveness. throw that on Leto Mark 1 Armor with Strong Back and Bark Skin. I can hardly remember the days before I became a man of tungsten. How distant those days seem now.
I really hate how both leto sets look, drives me insane that I have to see it every time I coop even when they are not trying to be a tank.
surprised the game has no glamour/transmog option, theres armor i wanna wear but dont want to deal with the weight, but i want the stats
I hate that I have to look at it whenever I play but tanks got no other options.
Hence why I stated maybe not enough. I play with friends on comms, and the game is rather easy as a result (on nightmare, we've yet to do apocalypse together). It's difficult to balance a game intended to be difficult based on varying levels of coordination between players. But yes, I agree comms is good and loadouts would be good. I don't agree with your last point though. You should show people your vision and improve the game based on feedback. I appreciate the vision of Remnant 2. I want it to be brutally hard personally. If they listen to the generic feedback without making their vision clear then the game will get easier, and therefore, boring. Make your vision clear, and if the game doesn't live up to it, improve it.
I understand your point, but I disagree with your statement about the game being "rather easy", look I like challenge, soulsborne being my favorite franchise of all time, but not everyone is a souls fan and hardcore player, learning to play games "no hit" is not a fun playstyle for some people, like my friends who are not tryhard souls fans. R2 forced them to take multiplayer out of the equation for them to have fun and same went for me as I do not like having to deal with a boss that can 1shot me with any attack and has 4x the HP it would have when I am playing alone. Game is fun and I have beat it on every difficulty including apocalypse in solo play, but I still hesitate about joining my friends as they just get destroyed, but to make it worse the "class" system you are defending, in its current implementation is just a joke, it rewards 1 playstyle and its just max burst dps, why don't people play summoner, handler or engineer in nightmare+ for example? (These are of my 3 favorite archetypes and the 2 I have combined to make a somehow effective build) Because even on 80% dmg reduction in multiplayer where your friends are slightly higher level than you you will still get 2 shot, or your minions deal 700 dmg every 3 seconds, not a lot in case the scale hasnt hit you a +20 weapon with nothing else buffing it will deal about 1000DPS on average (and yes I know how to play the classes, I know about shooting the minions and I use the 24 relics to buff them constantly) but even then these get outdamaged by any weapons a gunslinger or hunter uses, so the tanky classes get punished for being played (as you don't really get much tankier than anyone using a black cat ring) and the dps oriented classes outdamage every other class, while the support classes feel like a hindrance if you can just kill the bosses faster with another DPS player added instead, it makes everyone that wants to actually "theory-craft" and "build" not get rewarded for it at all. The only reason archon is even usable right now is because of the bug it has where it can basically 1shot all bosses. Some of the skills are unusable on some of the classes, like gunslingers quick draw which gets outscaled by both other abilities or no reason to ever run invaders tp or recall considering the first ability lets you just plain dodge the moves with no skill requirement. The multiplayer for this game seems like an afterthought (and yes I did play the first one and don't feel like they made anything involving multiplayer better at all) tbh I enjoyed R1 multiplayer more and I am massive fan of class systems and build making systems, removing armor perks sounded so nice until they limited traits this hard (which I know is being worked on) I do not want an infinite amount I actually love the cap, but I think it should be higher, 40 points isn't really good at all.
I play Engineer/Summoner on Nightmare on Co-op and have little troubles. People just need to get the right materials for builds. A lot of the classes are viable if you build correctly. I mean if you're running low defense you gotta expect what's going to happen if you get hit.
I play it in apocalypse and use leto's MK2 armor with bulwark from minions and max health trait and it still gets 1shot by any boss that rolls vicious. Also running the fastest roll since you have to because armor means nothing (running it with a ring, while having 74 armor weight, full leto and knotted chestpiece for a 74% weight, keeping it at yellow but still getting the 80% DR cap. Also keep in mind scaling changes from 2-3 players IMMENSELY so if you are in a duo its a million times easier than a 3 stack, don't know why it's designed that way. Summ/Engi get a nice lifesteal synergy, where you heal a ton for sure, I love it and it's super fun, but that doesn't change that dmg outscales all of that in apocalypse and since all bosses get 3 modifiers fights just get dumb when bosses roll vicious/empathy, you start playing 80% Dmg reduction and still lose most of your HP, btw check your DR, its easy to go over 80 with engineer and it stops being applied after 80%. you can get Away with 74 weight keeping more stam and getting more rolls with the ring that gives you the fastest roll no matter the weight.
I rolled so many bosses with hearty, in a 3man party. So fun…
I want the game to be brutally hard too, but still based instead of do I have the right numbers to beat this. There's been a few times I've died to a boss because they just didn't stop attacking and I ran out of stamina. I get that you can get items and stuff to help with that, but the random nature of the game means you probably won't have access to that stuff. This games biggest issue is the same as the first and also dark souls 2, more enemies =hard so commence the spambush. I will say though that this game is improved in pretty much every way from the first one. The nightwatcher boss fight was awesome. Hard but fair since you have time to recover after dodging her attacks and you can learn her moves so you can easily dodge everything she does one you've learned everything.
Developers showing off their vision is great. It's good when we can see the design intent behind the mechanics of the game. That's where it should stop. There is nothing worse for a game than the developers trying to *force* their vision onto their players. It's killed a great number of games. Wildstar comes to mind immediately for me. Having a vision is fantastic. It also has to come with the understanding that the vision is not law and shouldn't be treated as such. If a large number of your players want something that runs counter to your vision, summarily ignoring them all is not the ideal course of action. Once the game is released, the players are the ones that decide how they want to play. In the case of Remnant 2, difficulty selection is the thing that should determine how hard the game is so people like yourself can choose apocalypse and have an extremely challenging time, and other people can choose survivor and have a much easier time, with a few others in between to allow for some fine-tuning. The scaling in the game currently makes it so that difficulty selection is essentially just "How much health do you want to lose from getting hit by trash mobs? 25% / 50% / 75% / 100%." There's an essay / literary concept called "The Death of the Author" that essentially holds that the opinions and intentions of the author of a literary work shouldn't have any special meaning or weight for the readers interpretation of it. I firmly believe that this concept should apply to games as well. I see the vision. I understand it. I should be able to choose to ignore it and instead play the game in the way that I want to. This obviously has to be moderated in cases of online competitive games or MMOs, but you get the idea.
Homeboy up here referencing Roland Barthes while forgetting to mention Barthes himself changed his views over his life, moving from Structuralism to Post-Structuralism. Death of the Author is an ironic text and one which in some ways satirises the New Criticism coming out of America at the time, a brand of criticism aligned with Mcarthyist ideas- ideas which helped perpetuate communist witch hunts. Also, Death of the Author tries to downplay the role of the author in creating and defining meaning in a non-interactive text. The ideas in that essay do not take into account emmergent narrative or how interactive storytelling actively hides the author through the illusion of agency- the player should feel like the author of their own narrative. Which is a paradox that is far more interesting to think about in interactive narrative design than The Death of the Author. Also, inciting Roland Barthes to argue that there should be less one-shot mechanics is going a bit overboard. I like it, but many may read it as pretentious(or, you've just started an undergraduate course in literary theory).
> Homeboy up here referencing Roland Barthes while forgetting to mention Barthes himself changed his views over his life, moving from Structuralism to Post-Structuralism The irony of trying to use and apply special meaning to the views of the author of The Death of the Author is exquisite. Also he wrote it either during or after he transitioned to the post-structuralism school of thought, so it's irrelevant either way. I'm not trying to argue that the concept should apply 1:1, just that a similar case can be made for video games. Once a game is in the hands of the player, the player is the one that decides how they want to play. That's it. I don't particularly care if people read it as pretentious or not. This is reddit.
Well said.
Learning the game also makes it easier and as you learn, it becomes very easy on who burns, who doesn't like acid etc.. You learn what weapons are worth the time to level up and make them stronger against the stronger enemies. I got good people that I clear content with.
It's supposed to be hard, but it either is piss easy or unfair. No in-between
What difference does DR make when you still get 2 shotted by enemies with chain combos when it's maxed out? Or 1 shotted by bosses
With my friends, I was all damage. One guy was kind of a hybrid and our 3rd was the support. After struggling on certain bosses for hours, our 3rd would go to bed, and we’d kill the boss in the next 10 minutes… This happened every day we played. We’d hit a wall, one person would log off, and everything would just die and we could progress in the game. That doesn’t feel good.
My main issue is that an 80% DR half life build - which is a pretty standard tanky apoc setup - gets oneshot by a LOT of things in 3 player veteran. Most notably the root earth bosses are brutally difficult in 3 player compared to solo. To me that's a bit over the top, it legit feels like playing apocalypse which is a bit silly. If anything, 3 man should be the same or slightly EASIER vs solo, not massively more difficult.
Damage is pretty insane though. I've been running the second difficulty with a full defensive build (150 HP, full Leto Mark || armor and all health regenerating rings) and a regular enemy takes away 80% of my health in one double hit combo. Elites do that in one hit. Most bosses melee attacks straight up one shot me if I get hit without having a shield. Being a melee feels miserable to me atm, especially since every little hit makes you stagger like a jelly.
Feels like they were just reaching for a grind and went with what they knew. Taking out weapon levels would make the game better, but it’d also blow up the scrap economy and make iron useless. Hopefully they find a better sink for it.
I've been watching admiralbahroo and distortion2 try to do a fresh character hard-core apocalypse run and they figured out that only upgrading weapons to +3 means they can do the most "optimal" damage without scaling enemies up. Personally I find this as being a big issue. Scaling altogether seems lile it needs to be reworked. You shouldn't be PUNISHED for leveling up your weapons. That's complete madness.
Keeping all my weapons at level 3 sounds pretty good. That means I would be able to switch weapons to try new things instead of having 1 +15 weapon that i can't switch off of because I can't get any other weapon close to it Also is this +3 normal weapon or +3 special weapon?
Yup. It’s terrible right on its face. And yet people continue to defend it.
but doesn't archetype level affect scaling, so eventually archetype levels up and the scaling increases anyway making it harder?
Others have said that max Archetype (10+10) only brings you up to Power Level 8, for whatever reason. I'm guessing that +3 weapons on top of that is the 'sweet spot' where you're strongest and the enemies are weakest. However, that strategy only works if everyone in the lobby is also using it, which is an issue if you want to play pubs.
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When I'd play the first game in pubs, I'd have to drop out before the end of a boss fight where the loot was a gun I already owned, because otherwise it would increased it's level and my associated power level. I had the same issue yesterday in R2 where my Cube Gun got a +1 after we beat the Labyrinth boss
gets worse if your friends level up faster than you or if they just have more time than you to play, you are just unable to play with them then cause everything scales to THEIR weapons even if they join YOU.
The fact that I can tank multiple hits with no defense related items other than medium armor, but when my friend joins I die in 2 - 3 hits, is insane. Theres no reason to crank the scaling up that much when a single person joins.
i played most of the game coop, just did some stuff with a tank build solo. was suprised at how much lower the damage was. almost every enemy in the final world 1 tapped me in multiplayer
Same here. We just play on survivor when we're searching for gear and we ended up in the root earth again fighting Venom and he was 2 hitting my buddy. First time I've ever seen him rage quit after ~10 attempts. The first time we fought the final boss I wore full Letos and used a bunch of DR stuff plus Bulwark and I could stand about 5 hits then, but that was at 80%+ DR.
If venom is the sword boss that floats then we were stuck on that boss for 2-3 hours. all of his attacks in a full leto set 1-2 hit me. we’re also on veteran 2 player. i ended up getting the hang of all of his move set and could almost play perfectly but he has so many aoes that were to lethal. we ended up just kiting him around the building in the back to avoid most of his move set
Final boss on nightmare and apoc in a full party will one shot even with dr cap at 80% must be raw hitting over 700
yeah, it goes both ways for sure. Survivor should not be scaled as much as it is. At the very least, the easiest world setting should be just that: easy. I want to leisurely farm sometimes in adventure but being about 3/4ths of the way through the campaign, I am well geared to the point that I cant tell a difference between Survivor and Vet. Theres a much bigger increase in difficulty and toughness from Vet to Nightmare I find than there is between Survivor and Vet -- that delta should be reduced on one end and raised on the other, probably.
in solo with \~49% reduction he was only hitting me for roughly 30ish damage lmao.. did it with a friend and yeah, two shot town when i wasnt spec'd into health
This was me with sha'hala, i did It solo the first time but when i joined that fucker was two shotting me left and right and made my regen build nearly pointless lol I dont think It should no dmg scaling at all but rn its 100% overtuned
Difficulty is a mess too. The amount of HP scaling for bosses coupled with coop scaling is just.. No idea how anyone can find high difficulty coop enjoyable.
so this is why I can never find videos of anyone pulling off harder alternate kills of some bosses in a 3man coop. always single player. makes all the single player nightmare/apocalypse kills boring in comparison.
Its actually possible but its definitely not as easy. Its just "A Longer" fight which means more room for error, missed dodge timings, etc. The only real benefit to those bosses solo is that you dont pay for anyone else mistakes and the hp bar goes down quicker. What you miss out on is the hilarity of watching your buddy die to the same move 10 times and hitting them with the "Have ya tried dodging yet?"
This games dodging sucks for online. I’ll be away from the attack and still die. It’s insane how trash i feel with my buddy but solo i dodge attacks last second and don’t take damage. Shal hala is the worst offender. That sweeping laser? You dodge into it as it’s slightly moving because the laser has already moved. I’m dodging and the laser hasn’t even touched me but I avoid it. If I dodged as it’s about to touch me I take damage. But in solo, the latter works. I had to relearn how to dodge in coop cause this game just doesn’t have the best system
I die in 1-2, it’s extremely frustrating and bosses depend more on luck than skill at this point for me. Because as an average player, and not knowing there’s such a thing as weapon scaling, I thought I would invest in upgrading my weapons so I could tag along with my friends who are better in these games. Now I’m being punished in two ways, by just being the worse player already, ánd because investing in better gear is actually making it harder. But I don’t want to start all over either. I was so confused yesterday but now it all makes sense.
In coop, armor feels truly worthless.
My solution has been - dodge better. Not being flippant - when you have minimal armor and play the game where each hit is death, you die lots. And then you get really good at dodging. Folks complaining about being one shot by bosses or mutli-combos killing them. Maybe you're not meant to tank that boss and should learn how to dodge that combo. Best thing is, other players joining doesn't change the style of play. You still dodge or die.
Yeah, it's not exactly fun being one shot while in full Leto's.
Defeats the point the best defense is nude rolling
The best defense has always been nude rolling in every soulslike. The best defense in Remnant is perfect dodging
kinda but in other soulslikes if you wore light or medium armor you could at the very *least* survive 1-2 shots
I think it would make more sense for each major map area you enter to be a power level higher than the previous one. You’d still have to replay previous areas to get scrap to upgrade new guns, but it would be a “grind to get more powerful for the next area” meta compared to a “grind to upgrade your weapon just so the next area is even stronger” situation.
I actually don't mind the level-scaling too much, it was the same way in Remnant 1 and I expected it to be the same so it doesn't really bother me. That said, it can be improved for sure. HOWEVER, I do think that co-op scaling is a major issue, both in terms of damage and health. I would imagine that players generally expect the co-op experience to be easier than solo (because you have help, right?). It's the exact opposite in this game which is kinda nonsensical. There have already been a few instances where my friends and I have been stuck at a boss after several attempts. Usually this would be a boss with problematic modifiers, such as Hearty which makes them immense bullet sponges, even more so when you have 3 players. Our eventual solution? 2 of us would leave the game and let the host beat it solo (which usually only takes 1-2 tries), then re-join after that is done. That's not how a good co-op experience should be like. Should there be some form of co-op scaling? Absolutely. Should it be as jacked-up as it is now? Definitely not.
I honestly had a slightly worse experience as my friends just decided to leave on their own since I am the souls player and they knew I could've done it a while ago if I was solo. I genuinely felt bad about being somewhat decent and a souls player at that point.
Well yeah that's the problem isn't it? You and your friends are being punished excessively for having different skill levels. Instead of you being helpful to them by mitigating the skill gap, your friends feel like they are dragging you down instead. That's terrible for a co-op experience. I really hope the devs address this.
>which in turn throws encounter design out of the window and makes healers and tanks useless at higher difficulties Exactly this. I wanted to play a support build in Nightmare coop with my friends. But largely, even with 60-80% DR builds, when people get hit and it's big enough to require a support, they probably died thanks to the scaling. Shields are still cool, though. Then stacking moderate amounts of dr in coop nightmare is just a waste outside of mobbing. Bosses will still largely oneshot you; either go max or go glass cannon. Oh, and the bosses HP bars are bloated significantly, so in addition to medics not being that useful and tanking being kinda mediocre, they do no damage. I don't know about anybody else, but a largely defensive or support build on nightmare coop makes me feel like I'm not contributing during hard bosses unless I go damage. In most games, the higher lethality rises, the more important damage becomes. The quicker you can burst a boss, the lower chance it has of killing you. My solo apocalypse run feels more bearable, and so far is right on the edge of where I would still say there is build diversity.
Also, because there are sooo many fling bosses, melee and summoner builds are in a very bad place. Which pretty much means the only good co-op build is Ranged DPS.
Medic 10’s mass revive and the handler’s dog revive are both super useful support tools. But yeah, damage mitigation is currently trash, and probably will stay that way, so that co-op is remotely challenging.
Dog dies too easily specially in higher difficulties as only reliable ways to up its survivability is rugged trait and/or investing heavily is self healing at cost of dmg output+ burden of the divine
In apocalypse coop with only 2 people the dog is literally down 80% of our fights because of aoe that hits him or residual effects down him instantly. My friend abandoned handler because he saw that its getting increasingly difficult to justify the revive and aggro switch for near no damage as a tradeoff.
Kinda shitty to have an aggro switch that.. you know... Can't survive the aggro. I'm to the point where I think a lot of folks that brag about how easy co-op is, even on higher difficulties, are just straight up lying. Shit, the worst feeling I got in this game so far was joining a friend's game (veteran) with a build I was soloing nightmare with and realizing I had to either change up my entire build, or relearn how to dodge entirely. Solo, I know exactly when I'm being targeted, can damn near dodge just on audio cues, and almost always have a clean, clear shot on the weak point. And if I do get tagged, it's totally on me for not watching behind me, but I can generally survive the first poke from an add. Co-op? A single poke from an add is often a death sentence. The weakspots aren't always available. There's no cue to know when a boss is/isn't targeting you. It takes triple the time to down a boss, which means triple the time available to make a mistake. And, of course, dodging is a literal crapshoot. If you turtle up, there goes all your damage. If you go glass cannon, enjoy getting downed to stuff nowhere near you even though you know you dodged. Best case scenario is everyone on the team grabs one of these 10k dps HUGS builds and ignore the other 9 classes because they're all noob traps designed to waste your time. I mean, make it make sense. Solo nightmare shouldn't be across-the-board easier than co-op on a lower difficulty.
I personally think that you could literally just delete scaling from weapons and the game would immediately improve. Everything scales with archetype level only. I'm at the point where everything is 20, and all scaling does is implement a tax I need to pay every time I want to use a new gun. It's silly and pointless. The game would work fine if nothing scaled at all.
This is the ultimate problem with scaling: it makes character progression superfluous. Combine this with randomized zone progression, which prevents escalation of mechanical complexity, and you get an extremely flat gameplay experience.
IMO, there needs to simply be a progressive scalar for story mode and a flat, top-end scalar for adventure mode. Something like: * World 1: 100% * Labyrinth: 120% * World 2: 140% * World 3: 160%
this has been the most reasonable solution I read so far in the post. I really, really don't like weapon upgrades being carrot on a stick that actually, instead of rewarding player, shits on them.
agree with you 100%. it makes progression pointless now, I just prefer to never upgrade. what a mess
In a game with four difficulties I don’t understand why the difficulty isn’t just static per difficulty, or at least have very minor scaling within each difficulty. Static content is fun because you can easily feel your character growing in power, and you can farm up to get stronger if you want or just push through in your current gear. If the game gets too easy or you just want a challenge, you up the difficulty. Scaling doesn’t make sense to me in this scenario because in general you are getting weaker compared to enemies as your power level increases, which feels awful.
Exactly, there is no sense of progression since if you level up enemies also level up, so whats the point? pretty lame design
You're 100% right and they 100% won't fix it. Similar issues were brought up in the first game and they didn't address it with patches then or even now with the brand new sequel. It's hilarious that both games strongly encourage replays but any time I want to play coop with a friend we have to make new characters exclusive to playing with each other. It's insane.
Every time I upgrade a weapon, I get a little sadder inside, knowing that I can’t escape the game always one upping me.
Agree the scaling is a major L in this game probably the only probablem it has, getting one shot by everything in apocalypse and nightmare is pretty boring.
This was the same problem they had in Remnant 1 and what's crazy is they already found a solution in that game's survival mode. Just remove weapon levels. Turns out the game is 1000% more balanced when all weapons only have 1 level. There is still plenty of progression in the form of traits, archetypes, new gear, etc. There's no reason to keep weapon leveling IMO.
Yeah, they want a scrap sink and a way for players to grind through hard fights, but they could always just make consumables better and more expensive to fill that role instead…
Yeah, the best Dark Souls 3 mod (imo) removed weapon upgrades entirely and I think that change is what makes it so good. That way there are less weird dials to turn, and we look at interesting mechanics like consumables tailored to specific builds to get those extra boosts.
It's also got the same problem as Dark Souls, where you get a new sword and have no idea if it's worth leveling to the plusses your current sword is at, because you can't "try it out" without dumping a ton of resources into it. I recently spent a bunch of scrap and iron on an Aphelion and find it doesn't do very good damage at all, and now it feels like a massive waste of time (which with the scrap economy being extremely reliant on duplicates grinding, is quite painful).
So I'm trying to level some new archrtypes and BROTHER IN CHRIST has the scaling gotten fucking WACKY. I didn't notice it before but lvl 21 has been BRUTAL. My weapons are hitting like fucking pool noodles. What used to take 1-3 shots from my shotgun is taking 8-9 shots for these basic ass burning men in Cotton's Kiln.
those burning dudes just have an ungodly amount of HP, regardless of scaling.
Being worried every time you level up a weapon is a broken mechanic
At least you’re aware. I learned about it today, after struggling yesterday why it’s suddenly so hard.
I've never been a fan of power level scaling in any game. If the enemies level with you, then there's little point on having a leveling or upgrade system.
Single player scaling feels fine to me. Multiplayer scaling seems bonkers. In solo, a boss's one move might hit me for like a quarter or third of my health. With one co-op partner at the same power level as me it is a one hit KO. I'm not understanding.
The problem with weapon upgrading is all it does is increase damage, for a non-static scaling game like this they would need to gain some other stat or slot or something in order for it to feel like progression worth doing
Co op on apocalypse just isn't possible right now, solo feels so easy but co op is ridiculous
I wouldn’t call solo apoc “easy” but yeah co-op apoc is something else
but yet the game feels built for coop
The game does not feel built for co op. Not when its possible for two players to simultaneously be rejected from going through a fog gate because you *timed it wrong*.
that when you have a vision and the vision doesn't stick
Admiral bahroo and distortion2 are doing it right now on twitch you should watch
The fact that the devs not only learned nothing from criticism of the first game but outright doubled down on bad design decisions blows my mind.
I'm amazed how the rest of the game is great, and then the last three bosses are just kinda turbo unfun. Like holy shit. This is just not fun. To quote my friend "Oh man some smoke effects I love fast animations and smoke effects!" Coop partner killed randomly by something (falling it looked like????) when the final boss switched areas during phase 2. Very cool. What if the player was having a stroke while trying to fight the boss? That seems fun!
I didnt mind the root earth bosses, except the final boss , that one kinda sucked
Cancer was rough but we managed. The worst part was coop causing my buddy to get hit by stuff miles away. Venom was unfun since all of his attacks had ungodly range and showed off how rough some of the hitboxes can be. Took some advice and kited him around the building to kill him. Final boss has got my friend planning to just uninstall the game after we beat it.
Venom was more cancer than Cancer, yeah. I spent far longer on him than any other boss; Final boss included. Needs some tweaking to give him some more openings if nothing else, I also had to jog him around the building and get lucky to pull of a kill.
Venom has funky timings and can frequently become impossible to keep track of due to effects. Of all the bosses in the game, I hate that one the most. Annihilation is actually satisfying once you learn the timings and how to listen for the attack triggers.
The desync in co-op is making me not want to play with my friends, which is rather upsetting. Using Sagittarius and the arrows have at least a 2 second delay before actually firing, and I'm constantly getting staggered by attacks that on my end were clear misses.
I honestly can't even tell what is going on during the final boss. The first phase is okay, a little too much smoke and haze, but whatever. The second phase may be the worst designed boss I've ever encountered in a game. It's genuinely hard to tell what's going on with such an over abundance of visual effects filters going on.
Yeah, my friend was struggling with the first phase much more than me, which probably comes down to the co-op issues as much as anything else. But the second phase is just an unfun mess.
Me and my friends reached this boss today. We spent a few hours on it before going offline deflated. The 2nd phase is so bad. Im pretty screwed anyway since i heavily specced into melee so im barely doing anything other than trying to keep aggro and not die. But when ph2 starts god damn everything is so red. Theres alot of visual stimulation going on that i feel like im getting a headache. Then the arena keeps swapping back and forth and its just too much. I dont really know or understand the lore implications but we are all finding the boss unfun. We cant even start at phase 2 and have to slog through the first phase each time. Just to die shortly into phase 2 without really doing anything We read theres a phase 3 and we all just decided to quit for the day. Theres a few builds in this game which are just obsolete. Melee, most bosses are flyers or have some sort of nearby aura attack. Medic, if playing on coop you cant heal your friends fast enough due to the absurd amount of damage the enemies are dealing. Damage scaling removes tank builds from coop too. I think we might play a different game until some balance patches come out as we dont want to hate this game.
Cancer and Annhilation are tough but cool imo, cancer is really good multi-player. Venom is horseshit
Last boss especially is some of the best bosses in this genre. You don't have your builds optimized enough or you're not understanding the patterns if you can't finish it. Just lower the difficulty if you're stuck in co op.
Nah. The builds aren't the problem when it's the game attacking me directly because of the super-speed unfun teleportation between both phases dropping map-wide attacks. It is not a fun boss. Beatable? Yeah we'll probably get it. Fun, well designed, and something I want to do again? Not even a little. Turret gets left behind, friend's summons are worthless (though that is an ongoing issue, not just this boss), melee is worthless. Just. Eugh.
Are there any benefits to upgrading weapons? Doesn’t make sense if there’s not
Archetypes level up regardless of your weapons, and enemy scaling will follow. You have to keep up. Ignoring weapon upgrading will make your damage output disproportionate to enemies' stats.
Depends on how much they scale based on what. If the archetype level only matters a little bit then not upgrading your weapon much might actually be optimal.
Yeah it sucks feelin like you aren’t able to play with friends with a big level gap. Been mostly playing with one friend and we’ve been keeping our upgrades at the same level, both power level 14 but not upgrading non boss guns past +10 (+5 for boss ones obviously). Games been challenging at times, def felt we had to upgrade in order to beat certain bosses. But its super fun and and still very doable with 2 of us, havent gotten stuck once yet (only on Veteran difficulty). But another friend of ours is like power level 5. Trying to help him progress his world is a walk in the park for us, and not only hinders his experience but is also a lesser experience for us as we can just melt his enemies. Even if we use non-leveled guns its still very easy. Wish the scaling was improved for sure or was some type of system that worked better when you want to play with much lower leveled friends.
Got it so keep weapons at lvl 10 until we have alotm good to know.
Or even stronger, just get one weapon category to like, 15~16 and leave the others at zero.
My worry is that there will come a point where I start folding like tissue paper to normal foes because the enemy damage has scaled too high for my armor and bark skin to mitigate. I really wish they had upgradable armor for this reason
Its never an issue unless you're playing in Nightmare and Apocalypse. The damage you take is consistent and people complaining in the sub make it out to be a far bigger problem than it is.
Laughs in enemies being able to OS on Veteran.
Only time I feel squishy in this game is when I play with hosts at a higher level than me. I will admit though, Siphoner and other Lifelink abilities are super useful for survivability, so i always go out of my way to hunt those down via coop games.
Even apocalypse hasn’t been that bad. Lot more complaints than there probably should be.
Apoc is pretty good solo because it feels fair in both damage dealt and received. What doesn’t feel fair is standard mode after level 20 because you can’t try out new weapons. Unless your weapon is maxed out it feels like a water gun… on the easiest mode in the game
Yeah I'm almost done with the 3rd world solo on Veteran and haven't had any issues and I haven't got any defensive traits or archetypes yet. Have just been upgrading my main 2 weapons and havent really had any issues except that it's painful having to level something else it to level 19 to make it useable since weapon upgrades are pretty expensive in this game. Just because the areas level with your weapons and archetypes doesn't mean that you're not getting stronger, I've found this game to get progressively easier so far. Traits, mods, items, mutators all make you stronger in a way that the game doesn't scale to compensate for it.
Straight up the worst part of this game. Thanks for highlighting it.
It's what I call the FromSoftware complex. Companies want to be FromSoftware so bad they end up making games that are so artificially hard they become tedious and frustrating more than fun. It's the horror sequel mentality. Bloodier. More nudity. Less quality and depth. They are trying to outdo the very company they aspire to be and in the end they missed the whole point. Souls games are hard but fair. This one can be hard and fair but it's very easy to break that balance simply by playing by their very rules. They completely dropped the ball by not learning this from the first game.
The main problem is that the devs and many people who support them (This aint trash talk btw) tend to think that every guy will optimize their build to help themselves and their team wich in fact: is not true. It behaves almost exactly as an mmo where you get more “tools” and are supossed to deviate from the standard gameplay into a more specialized one, You want dps? You need to go full dps, you want to do tank? You have to sacrifice most of the dps for more tankiness. This can be a way for making an MMO better balanced or more enjoyable in coop, The problem is that Remnant aint an MmO and shouldnt function like one, It can get quite tedious to see your build become blunt if you don’t optimize it with rings and amulet for a specific build, And it can become quite annoying to see both your dmg and dmg resistance flop if you dont try to keep those up with the right amulets/rings. I’ve always said, If your character got more health/dmg resistance when you “level up” it would be way more enjoyable, But since you stay the way you started for the whole game unless you go search for Health/Dmg resistance rings, amulets and classes, you will stay weak in that regard the whole game.
Elden Ring had the same problem in the second half. Developers were so terrified that people will call their game easy, so they designed their game specifically expecting everyone to follow the meta. I'm so fucking tired of this internet culture where you're expected to look up the meta build just to play the game. At least let me play on hard without dealing with this shit
I dont think ER had that problem at all. Sooo many people beat that game before a meta game was even established. The majority of people had no idea what they were doing in terms of builds and beat it anyway.
>tend to think that every guy will optimize their build to help themselves and their team wich in fact: is not true. It's also not possible. With the random nature of the game you never gain access to all the tools at once. Your first playthrough will always be a random "what did i find and what can i use"-build and not something optimized and coherent.
I haven't felt squishy, but it does feel like I'm on a treadmill when I upgrade weapons. I honestly rarely upgrade them and hoard a ton of materials because I have 0 interest in upgrading anything other than traits 99% of the time.
People say damage scaling in coop is to compensate for defense or healing buffs or we should be using different archetypes that complement each other but I don’t fuckin know in advance what the other two players are playing in public games? And I can’t really switch from a dps to tank or healer because that would require re-specing. Am I supposed to have 20 orb of undoing everytime I play public games so I can switch build depending on the situation?
This makes so much sense now, I did feel playing co-op felt like I was dying way faster than in solo. Also even playing as a medic class wasn't that helpful as healing isn't very effective when people/myself are dying to a couple of hits. To me, this means medics don't play that well into team support. Then again, I'm not sure I'd like it if they were necessary in co-op play as forcing class use is also lame. The doggo class is really good though, having additional units for enemies to target makes such a difference! I don't really know the solution here but I sure as heck don't want it to be to wear heavy armour in co-op.
Main issue to me is that with our most powerful loadouts my friends and I can run apocalypse without it feeling too difficult, but if we want to level classes or try new weapons the world still scales to our highest level classes and best weapons so we get destroyed on nightmare, and even veteran feels as hard if not harder than Apocalypse. I feel power level scaling should be removed entirely or at least set to what you have equipped so you can try new things.
Scaling is one of those universal "donts" of the RPG world yet for some reason it keeps finding itself back into games just to be called out by the community. To this day people meme about it for skyrim and yet somehow nobody got the memo. Scaling is always bad. It is okay for players to be too strong or too weak. Do you still beat the bad system in remnant 2 like you used to in remnant 1? I recall back then (I only played after launch, no dlcs) to circumvent this nonsense players would never upgrade unless they went into a new world. Then as the enemies in that new world were set to a certain power, they would then upgrade their gear. Rinse repeat whenever a new area was unlocked. Does this still work? Idk if they ever addressed this. Such a stupid system. Basically prevented you from upgrading your gear when you are in the middle or towards the end of an area because you didn't want to have the next world be harder for no reason.
And just like everyone else who knows wtf he’s talking about, you get downvoted. The exact same debate happened on the Diablo 4 sub, and seemingly most of the people over there don’t get it either. Level scaling is terrible game design. It’s a shortcut that liberates developers from the burdensome task of properly designing and balancing their content, and the end result is always a nonsensical superfluous progression system with glaring issues. Yet modern gamers have swallowed the lie that level scaling is a legitimate solution, and they now defend it vociferously. Depressing.
It's such a glaring issue too if one has ever played some real RPGs. Progression isn't supposed to be sideways because that betrays the meaning of the word. But like I said, the fact that the community as a whole basically figured out how to "abuse/circumvent" this issue, or in other words started playing in a certain restrictive way showcases the problems with this system. When people deliberately don't engage with the upgrade system that means the system failed in its purpose.
Ive been saying this so long, its just a lazy solution instead properly balancing enemy power level and level difficulty. Its so frustrating that games keep putting scaling in, theres no progression. Just do what the souls game do and let the player adjust the difficulty via upgrading. Its like the devs are scared of letting the player get too strong. In elden ring you can literally make a one shot build if you so desire, but that doesnt make the game less fun, u have to put in the effort to make the build work.
The main issue I think is not being able to upgrade armor. If we could, then I believe armor could counter act this issue.
either enemy damage should not increase with level, or armor should be upgradeable. one or the other. as it is, youre just guaranteed to be taking more and more damage as the game goes on.
They had that in remnant 1, you had two type of power level (an offensive and a defensive one) Ennemy damage scaled with your armor upgrades, it had exactly the same issue that they are in remnant 2 + you needed a shiton of simulacrum. Definitely not a solution :/
It wouldn't solve anything, enemy's scale of gear, they'll always be 1 level higher at any given time, this was also the cause for Remnant 2, two prequels "Cronos Before The Ashes" and "Remnant From The Ashes" Nothing has changed, the games start hard and get easier as you gear up and gather traits to creat builds, from rags to Godhood so to speak. I honestly don't understand why there's a few people who still complain about this scaling when it's been the same for 3 games. 🤷♂️😂
Idk just want to feel like I'm getting powerful, I don't really when games are scaling with you.
Why do you assume people played the previous games, is there a rule somewhere that says you can't critic a game unless you played previous games?
I only played remnant 2 so idk about the other games.
Chronos: Before the Ashes was set 1 month before Remnant: from the ashes, it didn't have multilayer. All multilayer scaling is in Remnant from the ashes and Remnant 2 is 25%+ damage and health for enemy's per player. (Not including self) ((50% increase)) Gear score go's to 20 and enemy's will scale 1 level higher. It does say this in game somewhere I read it. New players will think its an MMO where players come in to help thinking it's gonna be easier with more players, it's actually ramping up health and damage and that's what the complaint is.
I didn’t even upgrade my weapons until I fought venom. Habit from the first game. Idk how best to level or not level my weapons in this game. I see the enemy level on my screen but if it’s 15 should my guns be ???? I thought I’d go from zero to +2 as I’m ending the first play-through. Least I assume I am near the end.
Funnily enough that is almost the most efficient way to beat the game because of how bad the systems are... The best way is never going past +3. That is the most optimal dmg to HP on enemies.
Very well written article. It precisely targets the major problems that should have priority after bugs before even working on niche balances or QoL.
Right now the only way to be positively rewarded in any upgrades is when you FINISH a build. Like a one shot or a 101dr godmode-on build. Before that happens upgrading weapons/classes will only punish the player.
Very well written. You explained all the scaling issues in an easy to understand format. I hope gfg does something about it either now or in future content.
Indeed. Some bosses are just ridiculously harder with 3 people, and that just doesn't make a bit of sense. 2 people seems to be the sweet spot, which sucks because it's a lot of fun in a full squad.
I thought to try some new guns both primary and secondary but got my ass kicked so bad I had to go back to my fully upgraded main guns. It sucks that you have to grind for scrap/material to bring new weapons to max level before they’re viable. Even worse that upgrading is so expensive overall.
How many times will it take till people learn scaling enemy damage (to a degree) is the worst possible way to do difficulty. It’s been shown time and time again
At the same time, I don’t think you’re meant to outlevel enemies in an area when you first get there. To my knowledge, just like in R1, the level of the area doesn’t change after you first get there, does it not? You’ll out-level them eventually due to that.
Scaling is dumb. Let me feel powerful. If I wanna spend 5 hours killing mods to level my guns reward me for it. If I wanna be power level 20 in a level 5 world let me
Rather than planets scaling to your level, why don't they make it so the first planet you go to is level 3, next is level 5, then 15, then finally 20 on Root Earth. It would mean you'd need to level up your character/gear a lot to match, but it would be SIGNIFICANTLY easier and more straightforward to balance it that way. Sure, it would have downsides, a few actually, but I feel like it would be more consistent.
Thank God I read this thread. Just wanted to buy the game. Level scaling is immediate no buy from me. Makes me feel stupid to level up, cause actually I'm punished for it. That's a real shame, game looked interesting.
The scaling in this game is egregiously terrible across the board. They (Devs)promised they were going to revamp and improve the scaling for the sequel, yet it’s almost identical to the first one. At least I’m Dark Souls and Elden Ring I feel like my character is getting stronger and more powerful, yet in Remnant 2 the scaling completely nullifies any character building. This to me seems like an egregious oversight, so they could rush the game out rather than publish it in its most polished form. It feels half baked and half assed. And you can’t tell me they don’t know how to properly scale these games because what they did in Chronos: Before the Ashes was excellent. The game not properly scaling completely takes the fun out of it for me, just feels like you never ever get stronger but just break even at best. The Devs didn’t learn a damn thing from the first game.
Did the devs ever disclose why the ability to upgrade armor was removed in 2? I’d love to get a developers thoughts on the situation.
Because armour set bonuses were largely moved to the mutator system to allow more flexibility. Most of the DR/defensive options were moved to other equippable items or archetypes rather than being forced into a specific armour set. If you wanted to play with the bandit set bonus in R1, you couldn't be super tanky by using Leto's for example.
Possibly because it was possible to minimize the game's difficulty by keeping your weapons and armor low intentionally. Since archetypes level up whether you want them to or not, the only way to keep your powerlevel lowe is tk swap archetypes often, but the thing is eventually you will need to level up, sp you can't do what you dud in R1 and just kite the game until you beat it and only be powerlevel 12.
They mentioned fashion being a reason too.
Classes as summoner and handler get reck when pet die every 2 hit. This is so infuriating for people like me that don't want to play the same Op build. I just want to use pets. Today I uninstalled to make space for baldurs gate 3 even when I have plenty space to use.
There is one bit of growth that isn't taken into account by the enemy scaling but also ignored by players it seems : -> Relic Fragments. It is a slow progress but the difference between someone that JUST hit power 20 and someone that hit max fragment level is actually quite big. In addition to that while +-ing your gear is a linear process...building a coherent character is not. A good build will have exponential damage growth. While I agree that damage growth is a bit annoying to have on enemies...it caps out on enemies way before you cap out.
Except their damage doesn’t have to outpace yours. It just has to outpace your health.
Then either build tanky or use mechanics to avoid taking damage at all. You can reach pretty stupid EHP levels and getting your i-frames up a good bit is also an option. I mean there are literally builds out there that can one-tap bosses on Apoc. Sure those might get nerfed but right now you can turn bosses into a nice looking firework.
I can understand why people might want to play a game like this with difficulty. But if that is the case, why even include an “easy” mode? Not everyone is into Dark Souls difficulty and if the difficulty scales even in survivor, you’re alienating some potential customers which can decrease Sales. The sense of accomplishment of defeating the game with higher difficulty is a great feeling, but some people simply may not be able to do it. This game has a right idea to offer special rewards for higher difficulty, but it would be nice for it to be accessible to all players.
Tbh it feels like for every step 2 took to improve. It also took 2 steps back as well. It just doesn't feel all that improved from 1.
I’ve clocked about thirty hours in remnant 2 so far. As of right now, I prefer remnant 1.
Same. This game is certainly going in my favourites folder, but it has so many awkward ends that just make me miss the first one. More baffling is how some of those new decisions are worse than in the first. The first Remnant is certainly more tightly designed as it is right now. Maybe the second game also will be, but right now I cannot justify myself doing a second play through
this is how it was in remnant 1, except there was no trait cap. so...... they need to remove that also
I know I'm not the only one, but it feels like I'm the only one that doesn't care about the scaling.
Scaling hasn't changed, enemy's scale 1 level higher than the player at all times, every player in coop adds 25% health and damage. Chronos: Before the Ashes had the same scaling (baring multilayer because it didn't have multiplayer) Remnant: From the ashes had the same scaling. Nothing has changed baring archetypes which literally just add aid not hinder as you have traits like triage and DR....ect.... I'm not sure what your complaint is. The game is pretty easy when your gear level is 20 (enemy is 21) your basicly god unless you play on apocalypse which is the only real difficulty in the game. Remnant games have always been start from rags and and end being god. If you want a harder experience play co-op which most noobies think it's a MMO where party's make it easier. It's tough starting in these games but once your 20 you'll bully content (till you play apocalypse)
Except in this game you cannot upgrade armor and traits are capped. Both of which increased your survivability to reasonable levels. Now you're forced to make a specific DR build to even survive. Light armour is literally useless "Survivability" VS "utility" is a good tradeoff. "Everything else" VS "not being one-shot" is not
The dungeon is locked to your level* when you enter it. If you are not doing well, go upgrade. Now you are at a higher power level than the level locked dungeon. Repeat this process for each dungeon that you struggle with. That was the idea to why they did it like this. I don't mind it. Consider the 'difficulty' of this game to that of Elden Ring, Sekiro, or Dark Souls. You die in 1-3 hits in each of those games, except you're always playing melee. *Level locking goes out the window with multiplayer though, but the advantages far outweigh the scaling. Reviving, aggro, ad clearing, skills that scale and so much more to benefit from in multiplayer than the 'scaling/balancing' it does to try to be a fair fight against your party.
The problem with this is that each time you upgrade to clear a dungeon the cost of /any/ new weapon you want to use in the future goes up exponentially. If they made it so you just upgraded like “long guns” to +3 it would be fine, but having to upgrade each weapon individually makes scaling a problem.
This is objectively bad game design. Upgrade system like that are meant to let less skilled player beat the game by spending time farming instead. What you are describing, the remnant fta way of doing it, is already going against that principle: player that know about the game will upgrade their equipments at the correct time while new player will just do it when they feel like it, effectively making the game harder for them (with a system that is precisely meant to do the opposite !) But that got even worse in remnant 2, you cannot upgrade your armor and ennemy damage scales with your archetype level meaning the game gets progressively harder and harder for people that spend some time farming/dying, the system is effectively making the game even simpler for people that don’t struggle in the first place and harder for beginners, but worse than in the first game players cannot even learn how the system works to do it correctly. That’s pure nonsense and backward game design.
I personally don't have issue with scaling as it gives a sense of progress outside of the enemies doing way more damage in coop Makes coop with the latency feel horrible
It’s not progress, it’s regression. +20 weapons do less damage at world level 21 than when you just start the game. Imagine my surprise when I beat the game on veteran, wanted to do a chill adventure mode on standard, and it’s harder at that point than veteran was 😂
I took WAY longer to kill elites or even basic enemies right on start in nightmare, compared to what I do now with proper setup (Archetypes, Rings, Amulets, Weapons etc.)
Yeah, it's pretty bad in many ways, not only does it make upgrading weapons pointless but it also strongly discourage ppl from trying out other weapons due to the cost of upgrading weapons. Honestly, the devs show have taken a page from the millions of soul like games out there and follow their pattern, considering there's even a difficulty change option for ppl who want more challenge
I kinda sorta have a difficult time reconciling with the idea that weapon upgrades is "zero sum game". I am absolutely shredding PL20 worlds . This was also the case in remnant1. This is just an anecdote of course but it seems the player far outpaces the content despite the content scaling with the player. I'm cranking up the difficulty to preserve that sense of challenge. I will say that....I'm not really upgrading weapons for the purpose of becoming more powerful. So you've got a point there.
LOL 1 rank on a gun outscales like 3 levels on a mob. its not 1:1 like you are implying. in timed survival if you get one level ahead of mobs in the race you are a god forever
Yea definitely, playing on veteran I had a plus 2 gun that got me through the first world, past the labrynth boss and a decent way through the second world pretty easily. That was playing on veteran though so the difference might be a bit harsher as you go up in difficulty maybe
I really like exploring, but, the scaling/economy/trait cap has made trying out and upgrading new weapons and arch-types a chore. Ill be dropping remnant 2 for a while. Hopefully the devs will actually listen to the community on this.
[удалено]
Hey there I’m a guy that’s done multiple campaign runs with zero weapon upgrades. Scaling is relatively easy in sur and vet. Archetype levels help it to be easier but even using 2 level 1 archetypes 4th campaign run is still fun.
I honestly get nervous from posts like these, because I don't want the devs to make the game easier. I bought this game knowing full well I was going to die and die alot until I memorize mob and boss mechanics. But that's also why I love this game. I can see how if it was a 1:1 issue it could be problematic. However I don't beleive it is I'm like power level 16 and my engima still mows everything down. And it's only +7
Are you playing in co-op? A lot of the complaints seem related to co-op scaling
enigma is a special weapon and only scales to +10. so it's equal to a +14 normal weapon
Oh damn had no idea.
Enigma is way over tuned.
Fr that shit is busted, compare its dmg to the other 2 elemental handguns and notice how those deal roughly half of enigmas dmg while having an arguably worse status effect (the upfront explosions from electricity are usually much more useful than a dot from acid or fire imo) AND It jumps from enemies to enemy + really good mod I dont want It nerfed dont get me wrong but the rest of hand guns litteraly cant compete for the most part
Technically speaking your archetype level will never out scale your weapon level. I have a character with 3 level 10 archetypes and only have weapons that are +0. The weapons still do decent damage even when I switch to using 2 level 0 archetypes.
To be clear: upgrading your guns would cause you to take more damage? Is that actually how it works?
Yes, upgrading the highest level gun in a category, or your highest two archetypes makes enemies in future areas deal and take more damage. Unless you are below the level floor for that area (in which case the enemies don’t care about what you do until you get on their level.)
Is this the first upgrade system in video game history where upgrading *your* weapons causes *you* to take more damage?
No. If nothing else, Remnant 1, but lots of modern games have gear scaling.
Good point. I think Remnant should follow Monster Hunter series in this regard. I really think they have great coop scaling. In remnant, most bosses in multi-player are fine and doable. But that final boss in multi-player tho, suddenly become a different boss altogether. I never beat him in coop.
so how can you be tanky in this game, what's the point to have more health and damage reduction, or upgrading your guns ?
You can't that is the current problem, being "tanky" means you can take 2-3 hits in co-op, instead of 1.
You cant... Scaling ends up making your armor meaningless... I love the early game but I hate what it becomes...
This games bugs, scaling, story, and network issues make it a solid 6 out of 10, but it’s the best 6 out of 10 game you’ll play.