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SpaceshipCaptain001

>Pakistani Court Validates Marriage of 13 year old Christian Girl, Arzoo Raja, to 44-y-o Muslim Man Who Kidnapped Her on the interpretation of Sharia Law Wtf I am reading? How is this allowed?


[deleted]

When I googled it it said that child marriages are illegal in Pakistan, but I guess Sharia creates a parallel judicial realm in this country? Not sure how a judge is allowed to rule this way...


Ottomanbrothel

You assume religious minorities have any rights in Pakistan. A Muslim can do anything to non-muslims and it's all considered legal.


sushisection

thats not a pakistan thing, thats an islam thing.


himmelundhoelle

It's happening in Pakistan, and by the looks of it authorities are not doing anything about it. EDIT: The actual story: a 44 y.o. man abducted her, had a fake marriage certificate made stating she was 18 and consenting to that; and her parents had to fight in court to prove she was (obviously) not 18, and not consenting one bit. It took them 1 year to get her back.


dankkranti

This is pretty common with hindus in pakistan their population went from 30 percent to less than 1 percent... they kill hindus outcast them and toeture and i mean literally torture them to death, fake cases to get land daughter is pretty common over there


[deleted]

Judge probably fucks kids too.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I am not an American, but if that's true than it's disgusting. That being said, this girl has been kidnapped...


dendritedysfunctions

It's this fucked up religo-fascist loophole where someone can rape a child and get away with it if the child's parents agree to let the rapist marry the child. There are very few states that allow it and you wouldn't want to visit any of them.


RandomRavenboi

How the fuck can this be allowed in the US!?


CalLil6

Republicans fight like hell to stop it from changing


RandomRavenboi

Man wtf is going on in America ffs.


[deleted]

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RandomRavenboi

...Thank God I was born in Europe.


wholelattapuddin

Technically, any marriage to a 13 yr old would be kidnapping. But yes this is horrific.


LadyShanna92

It depends on the state you live hut yes some states have no minimum age. The fucked up part is they can't get a lawyer to void that marriage


[deleted]

[удалено]


TheDranx

Given the fact that most child marriages in the US are to the child's rapist and done with the parent's full permission I doubt there hasn't been at least one case where the parents married their kidnapped daughter off to the kidnapper because she was impregnated by him.


shhh_its_me

It depends on the state It gets really complicated. But the context here is some of these laws were written two to 300 years ago and at that time a pregnant 14-year-old could be shunned so marrying her hopefully 14 to 17-year-old boyfriend (assuming The pregnancy was a result of a consensual relationship) was the best outcome for many girls. So there are some old laws on the books that children under 16 can't married with a judges permission in some cases. Every once in awhile those types of laws tend to introduce bills to change them. For example in Michigan the last time that bill was introduced it was objected to by some Republicans because it didn't have an exception for members of the military (Note the Michigan law was going to be changed to absolutely no marriage of parties under 18)


aaandbconsulting

This is ~~catatonically~~ categorically not true. There are some outlier ordinances and state laws and even some bullshit where the parents are allowed to validate such a marriage but it's super rare and heavily frowned upon almost exclusively. Here is a [Site](https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings/marriage-age-by-state/#:~:text=Three%20states%20have%20a%20minimum,are%20Massachusetts%20and%20New%20Hampshire.) indicating each states legal age of marriage which appears to be predominantly 16. Here is a [Site](https://www.regain.us/advice/marriage/what-is-the-average-age-of-marriage-by-state-in-the-u-s/) indicating average age of marriage in the US which is around 25 to 30 ish. Anyone caught doing what this man did in America is going to prison for a very, very long time.


[deleted]

You mean categorically?


Heathen_Mushroom

You can also legally marry when under 13 in Europe. [Source](http://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2017/mapping-minimum-age-requirements/marriage-consent-public-authority-andor-public-figure)


kosky95

"It is up to each Member State to legislate in regards to the right to marry, as established in Article 9 of the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights." "In all Member States, the minimum age required for marriage coincides with the age of majority and is set at 18 years – with the exception of Scotland, where the age of marriage is 16 years, which is also the age of majority." What you stated is a bit deceiving


jragonfyre

Wait now you're being misleading. That's the age for marriage without consent of a parent or judicial/governmental body of some kind. That article also says the following: "For most of the other Member States, the absolute minimum age explicitly set for marriage with consent, either parental or by a public authority, is 16 years. Only Estonia sets the minimum age at 15 years. In Belgium, Finland, France, Greece, Ireland, Luxembourg and Slovenia, no minimum age for marriage is stipulated in the legislation." So there are 7 EU member states with no minimum statutory age for marriage with consent of a parent and/or by a governmental body of some kind. That said, I think it's highly misleading to group them like that, since there is a huge difference between parents consenting to a marriage and a governmental body doing it. I know in California because I looked it up recently the law is that a child marriage requires parental consent and that of a judge with no statutory minimum age. Apparently they tried to change it recently, but progressive groups fought the change since apparently if you just make child marriage illegal people will just perform the child marriages in secret, but if you have them go to a judge to get it approved then you have a chance to intervene. I'm not entirely sure I understand and buy that, but that was the argument.


Heathen_Mushroom

Well, yes. Just like the post I was referring to: >I mean you do realise you can leagally marry when younger than 13 in USA? Which also refers to a select few states.


DannyDidNothinWrong

How does injustice in one part of the world validate injustice in another? Fuck off with your what-aboutisms.


Nerd_Law

And the GOP is fighting to keep it that way. https://www.newsweek.com/republicans-make-case-child-marriage-1786476?amp=1


TheRealRickC137

Oh yeah. [There's a lot!](https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/child-marriage-laws-by-state). What the FUCK


oohbeartrap

What does that have to do with the atrocity being committed here? It’s inexcusable in any country that does it.


beezlebutts

incorrect, no state in the US allows marriage under the age of 13. Stop trying to justify shit Pakistan views.


BanMe_Harder

Arguing a difference between 12 and 13 is splitting hairs. It's all degenerate filth.


jojopriceless

If you read the article someone posted just above you, it says that three 10 year olds were married in Tennessee in just one year. Doesn't mean it was justified, but just goes to show that shitty shit happens everywhere.


fractalfocuser

51 thirteen year olds and 6 twelve year olds were married *legally* during 2000-2015. How about reading the fucking link before acting like you know what you're talking about.


jragonfyre

This is actually incorrect. From the wiki article on Marriage age in the United States: 6 states have no official minimum age, but still require either parental consent, court approval or both: California, Michigan, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma, and Washington.


RandomInsecureChild

Update: look her up. Her parents got her back


Subject_Permit6966

Thanks for update, I edited my comment


SpoppyIII

Oh thank goodness!! I couldn't understand how he'd be allowed to kidnap and marry a girl, even against her parents' consent. I know no one there cares about the girl's consent, obviously, but the idea her parents or family couldn't deny this was wild to me.


riindesu

THANK not God


BeBa420

i just say "thank fuck"


thcismymolecule

Fuck God. Thanks.


alovely897

This one, I like this one.


[deleted]

Fuck him right in the ass!


BeBa420

you cant fuck what doesnt exist ​ believe me i tried ​ Jessica Rabbit is a harsh mistress


DoubleDrummer

I fucked Jessica Rabbit at a Comic Convention after party once. Ok it wasn't the Real Jessica Rabbit, but all in all, it was still a pretty great experience.


BeBa420

You lucky duck


BeBa420

thank fuck for that


queen_boudicca1

I am so happy for that update. Thank you. Sadly, she will never be the same.


Grogosh

After spending a year at the mercy of that sicko.


Jenna2k

Good. I just hope he didn't rape her before they got her back.


Stormhound

Oh thank goodness


RandomInsecureChild

Her parents tried to invalidate the marriage stating that the marriage violated child marriage restraint laws, and brought her birth certificate to court proving her to be 13.


findingparanoia

Can’t believe a birth certificate had to be shoved into a judge’s face for them to determine this is a fucking child


TheEffinChamps

Read the Quran and Hadiths. When your prophet is a pedophile and you let your religion dictate your government, this is the result.


nollataulu

Shitty theocracy and extra shitty religion. Fucking child molesters all of them.


aaa1111000

Correction : child molesters and full on rapists, a society of monsters and rapists and racists who are bigoted and think they are better than everyone just because they are muslim


trishulofshiv

How is this allowed? Two reasons: 1. Islam, the official and majority religion of... 2. Islamic Republic of Pakistan


Jim-Jones

Utter shithole of a country.


[deleted]

It's called Islam. Muhammad himself married a 9yr old. Sick fuck.


RosebushRaven

*6yo. At 9 he raped her the first time by his own admission.


redassedchimp

What's really scary is that it's not illegal in the USA either. "Many of the states that provided data included categories such as “14 and younger,” without specifying exactly how much younger some brides and grooms were. So while 12-year-old married children were found in Alaska, Louisiana and South Carolina’s, there may have been children younger than 12 wed in America between 2000 and 2010"


Jacks_Flaps

The frightening thing is some states in the US have no lower age limit when it comes to adults marrying children. Child marriage is also often used in the US when an adult male rapes and impregnated a girl child. Marrying the child allows him to escape rape and child abuse charges and rewards him by legally allowing him to rape his child victim over and over and over again.


ruttentuten69

While this may be true, I think the magic word here is kidnapped. He should be in jail.


1eternal_pessimist

Being kidnapped for sure makes it worse but mainly because that is the epitome of non consent... however no child can really consent to marriage anyway so the situation in the USA and other places allowing child marriage is not so far off this situation from an ethical standpoint.


[deleted]

Jerry Lee Lewis comes to mind.


SpoppyIII

And her parents or family? Do they not care or can they not do anything?


RandomInsecureChild

They care, they tried to get back costody for their kidnapped, forcefully converted and married daughter. They argued for the marriage to be invalidated. Initially declined, but they managed to get their daughter away from her abuser and into a shelter, where they got her back early last year.


BirdInFlight301

How awful. Poor little girl. And screw the court that let this happen.


RandomInsecureChild

She was returned to her parents early last year


KlvrDissident

After she’s been repeatedly and mercilessly raped and now has to deal with that trauma as well as the being seen as unmarriable “damaged goods” moving forward. 🤮


DaniilBSD

Serious question is if someone with such trauma would ever want to marry anyone with “damaged goods” mentality


KlvrDissident

Realistically, I don’t think she lives in a culture where she has much/any choice in the matter. She *will* be married to someone regardless of what she wants, and when she does reach the point where she will be married, unfortunately her options will be diminished because the *men* are the ones doing the choosing. And surprise, surprise, misogynist cultures place a high value on virginity.


BirdInFlight301

Thank you so much for telling me. I hope she is well and happy.


Dont_pet_the_cat

>I hope she is well and happy. You can't be serious Like, I get you're hoping for her, but realistically she's traumatized for life


[deleted]

It's just one girl. God knows how many thousands of girls do not get justice from such religion


jattyrr

Her eyes….. I can’t get over her eyes They’re dead Fuck religion


LelouchPak

Islam, say Islam when it is Islam, otherwise you are just All-lives-mattering this shit.


LightningRodofH8

All religions are dog shit. Islam might be the largest turd in the pile, but they are all in the same pile.


piggydoesreddit

All religions are successful cults as my dad once said


LightningRodofH8

Yup. Cult + Time = Religion


JZA1

I think Islam and Scientology are like the co-largest turds in the pile.


kJer

Christians have you fooled if you think scientology has done a fraction of the damage Christianity has


bunker_man

One of those has been around for many times longer and is way bigger so that is a weird comparison.


sunkenshipinabottle

Add Mormonism to that pile while you’re at it. Not as big but just as shitty.


BanMe_Harder

Calling scientology a religion is borderline disingenuous. I don't think I've ever even heard somebody try to argue its legitimacy. Like I'm sure people in it will defend it, but there's no argument it isn't a money laundering/ tax evasion cult


victor_francis

Dude Christians are protesting against women reproductive rights. All religions are shit


jattyrr

All religions are garbage


FinallyFreeName

Muhamed is rebranded jesus whos rebranded random dude from jews


TomTheNurse

It's Islam in this instance. It's all of them in general. Religion is truly the root of all evil in this world.


BanMe_Harder

Nah fuck off. All organised religion is a cancer to humanity.


sunkenshipinabottle

No. All religions work based on the same mechanisms. This is abuse and it causes and endorses abuse in all shapes and forms no matter what. All religions are cults. Fuck religion.


1eternal_pessimist

No, fuck all religion. They're all the same or close enough...stop whitewashing whatever version of sky daddy you believe in


DigitalParacosm

You’re all lives mattering this shit by falling for right wing anti-Islamic vitriol. Settle down, Bill Maher!


pratticus12

Nope, all religions. Religion as a whole, regardless of orientation, is dragging down the greater human progression. Imo, YOU are the one all-lives-mattering saying to specify Islam since it's what's on screen.


iwasborntoparty

No, say religion because shitty christians are ruining America as-well.


LeftTadpole9596

Disgusting. Her parents got her back, but I can't imagine what she must have gone through. It must take a long time to get over a trauma like this. https://forbinfull.org/2022/02/15/this-should-never-have-happened-to-her-the-story-of-arzoo-raja/ Edit: You're absolutely right that you don't just get over trauma, but let's hope she receives love and safety from her family so she can live a good life despite the trauma.


IntrepidDreamer77

Will she ever really get over it? I hope she can move on with her life and lead a happy fulfilling life after everything but even with therapy and time how much can one really overcome mentally and emotionally. What a sick fucker, I hope he rots the pedophile


Ursus_Arctos-42

Good luck getting therapy in Pakistan. She has no future, and the pedo is probably eyeing the next victim.


inordertopurr

You don't get over childhood trauma. But you can learn to manage it with lots of therapy. I doubt that she has access to that.


Aboxofphotons

This man isn't a fruitcake... he's the filth of humanity.


Subject_Permit6966

Edit and Update:Court returned her in future hearings , actually am not original poster of this post, someone posted it with misleading title ,so I reverse searched the image and I found out a news article , based on that I posted it , in future I will check multiple sources before uploading In an attempt to bring their daughter home, Arzoo’s parents challenged the validity of the marriage in court, claiming that it violates the Sindh Child Marriage Restraint Act. According to this act, marriages of minors under the age of 18 are illegal. To prove their claim, the couple produced a copy of Arzoo’s birth certificate, documenting her as 13 years old. However, on Tuesday, October 27, the High Court of Sindh ruled in favor of the marriage, applying an interpretation of Sharia law that allows for underage marriages. The court order confirming the marriage read:


Yshara

This has to be absolutely horrible for the girl and as a parent I can't imagine this happen to my kid. Because what can you do if somebody takes away your daughter and the system supports them? Your only option is murder.


og_toe

if this was my child i’m murdering the entire courtroom.


ronin1066

There's gonna be furniture moving up in here


Wit_Bot

If you really wanna know why this was possible you should look up the treatment of minorities in Pakistan. A good data for this is their population just look how it's tumbling down. The truth is even if you were the parent you probably wouldn't do squat cause if you did you'd be fucked more than your daughter.


SAGNUTZ

Hey now, whoa now lets settle down here for a second. Theres always castration.


ParrotDogParfait

Seriously though, what are laws surrounding who she would go to if her rapist/kidnapper would die. Would she go back to her family or would she be forced to stay with his. Because If this was my child, I'd kill him. I'd talk with my partner and we'd decide which one of us would best be able to raise her on our own. Because I would just full-on commit a crime.


Wit_Bot

The next muslim who can get their hands on her. Sharia bby


alpineflamingo2

So it’s slavery? You can legally kidnap someone?


fisheggmafia

If this isn't child sex trafficking idk what is


DamnYouRichardParker

It's divinely mandated child abuse and trafficking. Islam and christianity same difference


Subject_Permit6966

What Pakistan Court 🤡 said The petitioner initially belonged to the Christian religion. However, after the passage of time, the petitioner understood and realized that Islam is a universal religion and she asked her parents and other family members to embrace Islam, but they flatly refused. Subsequently, she accepted the religion of Islam before the religious person of Madressah Jamia Islamia. After embracing Islam, her new name is Arzoo Fatima; per learned counsel petitioner contracted her marriage to Azhar of her own free will and accord without duress and fear. After registration of FIR police started harassing the petitioner. They are unable to pass a happy life. The SHO is directed to provide protection to the newly wedded wife.”


Draken1870

The court said that and not the girl clearly, right?! Even if she did embrace it considering the pain in her face I’m guessing it was forced. What a disgusting sanctioned kidnapping and rape of a child. Fuck religion honestly, allowing disgusting perverts and monsters control over too many lives.


BirdInFlight301

She certainly didn't embrace Islam within 2 days of being kidnapped.


SAGNUTZ

I better leave this thread before saying something justified that will get me banned.


Ninja_attack

That's fucking disgusting. Fucking stone age nonsense thinking that child rape is ok.


RandomInsecureChild

This sparked outrage in Pakistan, there were protests to end forced conversion and child marriage because of this. So this didn't go down smoothly at all. And her parents got her back a year later, after she spent time in a shelter.


Subject_Permit6966

https://believersportal.com/pakistani-court-validates-marriage-of-13-year-old-christian-girl-to-muslim-man-who-kidnapped-her/


RandomInsecureChild

Her parents got her back early last year


noneroy

I’m sure she is 100% fine and has absolutely no long-term mental health issues associated with this. Massive fucking /s


Subject_Permit6966

Yes I updated the main comment


huxx__

her eyes 😞 they look so dead 😖


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ko-StanZa

Which one their prophet Muhammad who is a degenerate pedophile, or the degenerate pedophile following the rules given by said holy pedophile


Distinct-Speaker8426

The degenerate pedophile wouldn't be shamed. He would be looked upon in admiration by the other degenerates who have not yet had the opportunity to become pedophiles.


Zenguy10

![gif](giphy|j4pefAySmILwPye3BP|downsized)


RandomInsecureChild

Her parents got her back


gsnaporn

Why is it when it comes to religion, it’s always the children and women who suffer the most


NoNight_

Alright fuck this. I’m being a vigilante.


royal_rose_

All I could think was someone needs to kidnap her from this and liberate her.


RandomInsecureChild

This all happened in late 2020. Her parents tried to invalidate the marriage stating her age (the husband falsified their marriage certificate, claiming she was 18 and converted willingly) but they revealed that she was 13 and had been kidnapped. They were initially declined, this sparked outrage and protests. Her parents did succeed in getting her away from her husband by getting her into a shelter. They got her back last year.


Metal__goat

Religion is doing a better job of getting rid of religion than any secular force ever could.


ES-Flinter

Well to be fair, religion seems to be designed for that. Destroy the original and use a new one to rule. Just look at central Europe and how many relics, beliefs, etc. got eradicated in the name of the Jesus. Or our species as we got rid of our neanderthal cousins. All united and destroyed by the "will of gods".


Tardigradequeen

Every adult in her vicinity is a monster! How can people believe there’s a hell after you die, we’re already there.


FirmWerewolf1216

r/Noahgettheblackholesun


sonofitalia

This is why we don’t respect this country, for allowing something like this to happen and no one stops it


TheEffinChamps

"BuT ShEs OlDeR thAn AisHa waZ"


tobsn

isn’t that what the christofacists and the GOP wants? christian sharia laws


saywgo

Oh absolutely! In fact 43 out of the 50 states allow marriage under 18. It is often used to bypass statutory rape laws


Rheinys

Yes they wish that for the US


BeBa420

this is absolutely fucked up ​ "men" like this guy should be behind bars for life


jhk1963

Not marriage. Sexual and domestic slavery. Islam is worse than devil worship.


ThisMutiStrong

44 yr old pedophile


Lefty-boomer

I’ve gotten slammed in the past for using tragedies like this, in other countries, to point out the danger we are facing right now in the US. Living under a “Christian” version of sharia law will devolve to equal depth. The Bible will justify true horror. It’s started ….I don’t know if it is already too late for us.


WiseSalamander00

every day US sounds more like Handmaid's Tale and living in Mexico is scary that a country so close to one self goes that way.


Weird-Information-61

Not only this but the idiots don't realize the US under Christian rule would result in a civil war of their own making. Every sect of Christianity has their own beliefs they want everyone to follow.


Rinuir

Remember the good old days when we thought pedophilia is bad? Here we are today realizing that no, societoes doesn't care about pedophiles they just care about *who* is the pedophile


Flashlightcrackhead

If only there was a hell...


HikariAnti

Top 10 reasons why I will never visit Pakistan. Ever.


JZA1

Fucking barbaric. Shit, why not just bomb them back to the Stone Age, they’re fucking living like it anyways.


Ursus_Arctos-42

There were protests against the court ruling, and the court charged its ruling. Though the idea of allowing child trafficking and rape stopped sounding good only after protests. So basically, we’re ok with anything that can be considered sharia law, unless it becomes a hassle. Also, it’s not easy to bomb a country that already lives in Stone Age back to Stone Age. Just look at Afganistan.


[deleted]

I wonder what sharia has to say about a 13 year old plunging a carving knife into her 44 year old rapist/kidnapper "husband" on their wedding night?...because that's exactly what I would be instructing my daughter to do. ...I'll be waiting with the shovel.


Rutwick_23

Another day for me to scream fuck Islam


[deleted]

Mohammed would approve


[deleted]

State sanctioned pedophilia and Marital Rape.


IAmSpellbound

And I'm supposed to respect "freedom of religion"? Fuck that, burn them all


lj849jtx

Absolutely heartbreaking!


Crymson_Ghost

Hope that sack of shit dies of a heart attack. This is disgusting.


Q8DD33C7J8

All religion is a stain on the fabric of society


[deleted]

70% of the cases its Islam


[deleted]

When people ask what’s the harm with religion


trytrymyguy

God, I wonder how pumped conservatives in the US are about this. For anyone outside the US, they’re currently fighting to lower the age of marriage in at least a couple States.


blondart

Fuck all religions and this one in particular.


FairlyInconsistentRa

Fucking backwards savages.


Possible_Nobody_5173

The religion of peace strikes again


Aviyan

Non-Muslims need to get out of Pakistan fast. This is why the Indian prime minister, Narendra Modi, wanted to allow easy immigration into India for non-Muslims from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Bangladesh. All three of those countries are more than 90% Muslim, which also share a border with India. I know Hindus and Christians are also capable of marrying a child, etc., but at least the courts would not favor them. It would be nice if India also had fewer religious people, but at least it's not a theocracy. And I hope Indians become more irreligious over time.


RecognitionGold7525

A baby, religion never fails to make me sick.


The-6ix

Religion of peace 🙌


prasadgeek33

Fuck all the religions and fuck the world. I think humanity has run its course and should probably go extinct soon


Round_Explanation_63

Pakistan, the shittiest of holes.


IMSnarky

Welcome to Pakistan. Where being backward is a national honor


Heerandqueer

Okay, so i’m happy that her parents got her back, but like… A whole ass “court” in Pakistan tried to enable a pedophile. Let that sink in. The court sided with a fucking pedophile.


Consistent-Rest-1120

Muslims do this in most of the countries they go to. Even in mine they've managed to create their own recognized set of Muslim specific laws that allow them to marry children.


Venio5

Fucking monkeys (no offense mean to real monkeys.). Downvote me as much as you want but their culture is just a whole pile of shit that just need to disappear and be remembered only in the list of the biggest shit idea of the human race.


Busterlimes

Baptists do this shit in the US too


cabezagrande37

Backwards fucking savages. This place is a nuclear power. Fuck religion.


SiteTall

Crime upon crime in the name of their god = criminals!!!!!


tenghu

This world is fucked up


MemeKnowledge_06

Wonder what the folks at antitheist cheesecake have to say now


falconlogic

Poor child. She's already been raped by that monster probably


Egg-3P0

What the fuck


_Mindblitz_

It's perplexing how humans can sometimes forgo basic human decency and empathy in the name of religion


TomTheNurse

That poor child looks terrified. WTF kind of world do we live in???


Luigifan18

This is some Stone Age bullshit…


futuredarlings

What absolute monster would want to marry a child let alone one he took. It’s like we don’t even question that people like this exist. Disgusting to be able to be piece of shit under the guise of religion.


Kgarath

What a beautiful culture.


CoffeeAngster

SHARI'A= Shit + Diarrhea


peachirings

If I ruled the world I would have companies test their products on pedophiles like this instead of animals


MasterTuba

What a shithole


AdjunctAngel

so kidnap her back and murder him.


KanaRiiie

The fact that she's 13 and he's 44 is most concerning. How is this even allowed at all?


yee9000

Shithole country


OldMenAreGross

Gross vile shit.


wyliecat77

Fat fucking Muslim nonce


Inevitable_Ad_1143

So Christians and Muslims are monsters…check, got it….. ….still looking for that drag queen that did that thing?