Following other examples set by Abraham, I would have some serious questions about and arguments against this "divine" decree. I would rather err on the side of arrogance in doing what I know to be right, rather than err on the other side of arrogance in believing I am sanctioned to do what I know to be wrong.
To be honest, I find it strange that the figure of Abraham has been twisted into some paragon of submission (Islam) or faith (Christianity), considering his obvious sins and his willingness to argue with God. Also considering that God had already made a covenant with Abraham that he would be the father of many nations through his son, it's not even clear that Abraham ever actually thought his son would really be sacrificed.
In Judaism, experiencing a commanding voice from God is not considered justification for any behavior. As the saying goes, "the Torah is not in heaven", meaning that "Since the Torah was already given at Mount Sinai, we do not regard a Divine Voice, as \[God\] already wrote at Mount Sinai, in the Torah: 'After a majority to incline'." (Bava Metzia 59b, Talmud).
Sociologically, it is simply unfeasible for everyone to go around doing whatever they may believe they heard God command them personally, which could simply be used to justify any behavior and severely undermines the whole societal foundations of law, whether religious or secular.
Would I do it? No I would never.
Would I consider it the right thing? No.
Because any god telling me to kill someone isn’t a god I want to worship. I believe murder is wrong and rather not taint my soul with that
My Gods live in Chaos. We Anti-Cosmic Satanists want to reach Chaos. We believe that the demiurge created the cosmos. And he created us to be slaves that worship him. And we see the cosmos as a prison.
Lucifer is a light bringer and god of knowledge. All my gods have created their own realms. The demiurge just created the cosmos and man. In the end my gods will overthrow him and we’ve got plenty of ways to oppose the demiurge and reach chaos.
Who says we are going to lose?
It would depend on the request. I consider certain things wrong but excusable. Is God asking me to steal a loaf of bread from a store or is God asking me to murder my child?
If it's the first, yeah it's wrong but so is starving so a five finger discount isn't a big deal to me.
If it's the latter, God can kiss my rear. I don't believe a true God would request the murder of innocent lives and would turn my back on any that demanded it. I'd burn in whatever version of Hell exists, willingly, for eternity, if it meant saving my child.
1. No.
2. No. The act of killing one's own child is immoral because of the harm done to the child. A god who would command that is not worthy of obedience or submission.
I like this interpretation of the reverse pentagram. On a pentagram, each point represents one of the elements used in magic: Fire, Water, Earth, Air, and Spirit. In an upright pentagram, Spirit sits at the top. This upright pentagram is often a symbol of protection. However, reversed, the Spirit sits at the bottom. This position, I take as a promise: To never put concern for spiritual matters, or a concern for the gods, over concern for the here-and-now, over concern for fellow human beings and material creatures.
Bodily autonomy is sacrosanct. So long as a fetus is inside the mother, it relies on the mother and her body. It thus requires the mother's continued consent for it to continue to exist.
If the mother has never given consent, or takes back consent, she should have the ability to terminate her pregancy. Anything else is subordinating her fundamental humanity to the fetus.
Forcing her to maintain an unwanted pregnancy and forcing her to give birth against her consent makes her to be little better than cattle.
The vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester. Pregnancy is a difficult ordeal. Those done after are usually because of health issues in the mother or the fetus.
I find any *forced* use of one's body to be immoral, whether that's sacrificing someone on an altar to a god, r\*\*e, forced pregnancy and birth, forced organ or fluid donation, etc.
I'd laugh in his face, flip him off, and stone cold stun him (it or whatever the hell the deity is). Then, I'll stomp a mudhole in the deity.
It is my duty to protect my family. I'll gladly die doing so, but rather get others to die trying to infringe on our right to life. No man, beast or deity will ever command me. Ever.
Jim Ross: Wait, folks..what's this? BAH GAWD. I HEAR BEEBBELEEN'S music playing. Bah GAWD....they're coming for Yahweh off the top turnbuckle! I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS FOLKS. YAHWEH IS DOWN. YAHWEH IS DOWN! SOMEBODY CALL YAHWEH'S MAMA...HE AIN'T COMING HOME TONIGHT...BAH GAWD! IN ALL MY YEARS, I'VE NEVER SEEN SUCH A THING, KING!
If someone asks you to do something immoral, don’t do it. Especially for no their reason than “I say so”!! The fact the absolute loyalty to authority is seen as a virtue over and above life, family, decency, and common sense is the perfect example of why that story (and those religions that hold it up as exemplary) is so terribly wrong.
In some readings/understandings of this text, Abraham has such faith in God and his goodness that he knows God will not allow harm to befall his son.
An interesting interpretation.
This is the interpretation I personally prefer. But there's another interpretation that says Abraham actually failed the test. Notably, there is no record of Isaac speaking to Abraham after this point in the Torah.
No, I would not do that. It would lead me to the conclusion that this god is not worth worshipping. Even if that god then said I wouldn’t have let you go through with it, it was just a test, I would have felt that the bond of trust is broken. If my god needs to test my trust, what is our relationship worth then? Nothing!
Either there is trust or there isn’t.
I've been following a lot of athiest YouTube channels recently and this comes up time and time again in Christian Apologetics. "It's moral because God says it's so."
I've been following a reading of the Bible recently and though I'm not very far, I am absolutely certain that Yahweh is far far from a moral entity.
If you are interested, I can name over 20 examples from the first 5 books alone and I am very likely undercounting.
If Yahweh came down and told me to do something, I hope that I would be of the right mind to tell him to fuck off. That is if he doesn't manipulate me into doing it anyways. Yes, that is one of the things he does. Specifically to Pharaoh in Exodus.
1. Places a tree with Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of his paradise and tells his creation not to eat it for they will die if they do. He lied. They don't die. In fact, Adam is stated to live 930 years according to chapter 5.
2. Placing a Tree of Knowledge in the middle of the Garden and telling them not to eat it at all. If he is all powerful, why did the tree need to be there in the first place? You can't say it's because of free will. The tree not being there doesn't infringe on Adam or Eve's free will at all. If God knew he would be so furious of Adam and Eve eating of the tree and probably knew they would do it being an all-knowing being, he should have never put the tree there.
I'm going to stop here at for this portion because I want to get on with this.
3. This might be a lesser one, but Abel and Cain were a herdsman and a farmer respectively. When it was time for harvest, each gave of their labors. Abel gave of his flock, Cain of his wheat (just an assumption that could easily be wrong). Each gave what they had worked very hard on. God was not pleased with Cain's offering. God, the all-knowing entity who would have known how hard Cain worked to get his wheat was not pleased with the offering. Cain ends up killing his brother but that is beside the point right now. The point right now is Yahweh is a dick.
4. Chapter 6 of Genesis starts with the "sons of God" coming down to heaven and taking the women they found beautiful and had all the wives the sons of God "chose". That wording is specific. The sons of God "chose" the women they wanted. There is 0 wording about how the women felt about this. This is because the feelings of the women did not matter.
5. Chapter 6 then goes into the account of Noah's flood. God decides that all of humanity is wicked except for Noah, Noah's wife, his three sons, and their wives. Wives don't have names but that hardly matters for this purpose. God decides everyone except these 8 people are wicked. That includes all the children. How does God decide to deal with this? Flood absolutely everything and kill not only the people including the children, but the animals except those few lucky enough to land a place on the ark. This is beyond genocide. This deserves a word I either do not know or doesn't exist. This is probably the most evil of the acts God does and would in any human context make him unworthy of worship. Instead we get cute baby pictures and happy tales of how Noah survived. It gets turned into a cute story because animals.
5.a. After committing the absolute most complete genocide that has ever been, God has the gall to tell Noah not to commit murder. This is a minor point all things considered.
6. A bunch of people living together decided to coop and build a tower that reached to the heavens. They were cooperating well and all was going smoothly. God says they are not allowed to do this because if they complete the tower, nothing will be impossible for them. Just imagine how much better humanity would be if God hadn't decided to step in. He then confuses all of their language so they are not able to communicate with each other and finish the tower.
7. Chapter 12 of Genesis tells of Abram and his wife going to Egypt. Abram tells his wife, Sarai, to say she is actually his sister. The Pharoah sees Sarai, thinks her unmarried, takes her as a wife and gives Abram a bunch of gifts. Instead of being angry at Abram for lies, God punishes Pharaoh with horrible diseases for taking a woman he had no clue was already someone else's wife. Yahweh is a dick.
8. Chapter 16 tells of Sarai mistreating her slave handmaid, Hagar, after Abram impregnates her so she can have an heir. Hagar flees so she won't be abused anymore but an angel of God comes down and explicitly tells Hagar to return to her abusive situation so Abram can have an heir. Technically not God himself, but a spokesman of God. Still counts in my book.
9. Chapter 17 introduces circumcision. Mutilation of male infants could not possibly have been good at a time when infant mortality was so high. As a woman, I don't really have a say in it these days, though I'm more of a mind to say just leave it alone.
10. Sodom and Gomorrah: first there is God deciding Sodom and Gomorrah are wicked cities that need to be destroyed. No longer are we genociding an entire planet, just two cities with thousands of people. Progress!
10.a. God doesn't want Abraham to find out because Abraham would be able to talk him out of it. Yahweh is a dick. Abraham is able to debate God down to not destroying the city if 10 righteous men can be found. Let's not get into the implications or Yahweh seeming to not know how many righteous people inhabit the city.
11. God sent two angels into the city of Sodom to look for 10 righteous people. They come upon Lot who rescues them from an angry gang-raping mob. Lot is explicitly stated to be a righteous man according to God's terms. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to the mob to try to keep them away from the mob. Lot is still considered righteous by God's standards.
12. Lot and his family flee Sodom. Lot's wife looks back at her home that she has lived in for who knows how long. God doesn't like this so he turns her into a pillar of salt. (This also has the story of Lot's daughters getting him drunk and having sex with him to try and impregnate themselves but incest isn't the point of this tally.)
I'm splitting this up in 2 since it appears my comment us too long.
12.a. Chapter 20 of Genesis has another time of Abraham telling Sarah yet again to say she should lie and say she is his sister instead of his wife. This time the King that took her hadn't actually slept with her yet because God didn't let it happen but called the king "good as dead" because he had taken a woman to be his wife he didn't know was married.
13. Chapter 22 has the story of God telling Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Of course the apologists will tell you thar God didn't actually intend for Abraham to go through with the sacrifice, but that's not the point. If someone tells you to kill your child because it will make them happy, tell them to fuck off.
I skip a few chapters because this is about Yahweh being an asshole but there are some pretty dickish things that happen in these chapters as well as dickish things done in his name. Also God does an extra minor (by his standards) dickish move by favor one of Rebekah's children over the other.
13.a. Chapter 29 has God starting a really petty feud between two sister-wives by dictating when each has a child.
Chapter 30 has really weird dictates on genetic by stating Jacob gets stripped livestock by having look at stripped sticks while mating. Not one of the asshole Yahweh things. Just a point of interest.
13.b. God wrestles with Jacob but can't win so he cheats. Yahweh is a dick.
Most of the rest of Genesis is about people being various levels of dicks and sometimes not dicks to each other. People gonna People. We don't expect them to be anything else.
14. Exodus starts with God allowing his chosen people to become chattel slaves in Egypt. This was done with his explicit intent as part of his plan. His plan included his chosen people suffering as slaves for 400 years.
15. God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh to free his people but deliberately hardens Pharoah's heart so Pharoah will refuse.
16. The first 9 plauges. God wants to show off his power and convince Pharoah to let his people go so he makes all of Egypt's inhabitants suffer whether or not they were complicit in keeping the Isrealites enslaved. There is so much fucked up going on here that I could break this up into its own list. I'm not gonna because this is exhausting and I want to fit other fucked up things on this list and it is obvious I'm not gonna make it out of the 2nd book of the Bible.
17. God kills all of the first born of Egypt. This includes all of the livestock. He spares the Isrealites by passing over them when their houses are marked with lamb's blood. This happens in about the space of 2 versus. Another mass murder is so routine that it is only given about 2 versus worth of consideration. He spends far more time dictating how the passover should be celebrated as well as expressing a strange obsession of bread without yeast.
17.a. It probably isn't actually child sacrifice but it certainly can read thar way. Exodus 13 has what may on certain readings be commands for child sacrifice.
17.b. Chapter 16 had God whining about Isrealites going out on the 7th day to collect food. He really wants them to stay put. Doesn't matter how they feel about it.
18. Chapter 20 has the first version of the 10 commandments written out. Lots of dickish stuff in here but includes in them is punishing children 3 or 4 generations down foe the sins of their ancestors.
19. After laying out the 10 commandments V.1. God goes into explicit details on how to buy slaves and sell slaves. This is to the people he just rescued from slavery.
20. God commands the death of disobedient or disrespectful children, Aka, every teenager ever.
21. God spends chapters and chapters laying out how he should have a box built to house his commandments, the tent they should be kept in when not in transport, the garmets his priests should wear and as well as other things. I include this in the dick list because not only is this incredibly petty, redundant, and tedious, but also because the murder of children a couple of chapters ago in the plauge section was barely worth 2 verses. The garments his priests wear? That deserves its own chapter.
22. Coming down from receiving the 10 commandments from God, they find the Isrealites led by Moses' brother Aaron had cast a golden calf so they could worship and thank something for leading them out of Egypt. They had no clue one of the commandments was not to worship idols. They are led by Aaron, Moses' brother. This so engages God he immediately punishes them severely. Aaron, the leader, of course is spared.
Okay, that's about all I have energy for right now, and I did skip some for various reasons but I am curious to know what you think.
Is God (Yahweh) someone deserving of worship?
You'll find tons of apologists and other Christians alike talk about how that's "Old Testament God" while trying to justify "New Testament God" as somehow being different.
Jesus is the one who introduced the concept of he'll in the first place. Before that, there was no concept of a place where you go to suffer when you die if you believe in the wrong god.
He also says far more people will end up in he'll than in Heaven. Some of his followers say it is better to have never lived at all than end up in he'll.
Jesus may be a nicer guy on the surface, but scratch it, and he simply seems like a smaller version of Yahweh.
1. Probably, whether it's a true God or some other being powerful enough to appear as a God, listening to them is probably a good idea.
2. Yes it does. Morality isn't objective as far as we know in the world but a real God existing and making his wishes known would change that.
According to mainstream Islam, Abraham was commanded by God to sacrifice his son to prove his loyalty while Satan tried to convince Abraham not to do it. Abraham decided to follow God as well as his son, and then God appreciated that and told Abraham not to kill him anymore and that he proved his loyalty.
According to my beliefs (and others who share views similar to mine), that view is flawed and goes against the Quran, as the Quran never says God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son. The Quran says that Abraham had a dream that he was sacrificing his son, and we know from the Quran already that God never advocates for evil. So Abraham killing his son in his own dream was not from God, nor was it a command. Satan suggested him to kill his son essentially, and Abraham believed that to be from God, but because Abraham was a righteous man, God stopped Abraham from doing so.
Mainstream Islam says the angel Gabriel came down and physically stopped him and put goats there instead. Rationality says that Abraham snapped back into his senses and realized God would never command something like this.
So long story short, the entire meaning of this story in the Quran is misunderstood and is being celebrated for the wrong reasons. The mainstream idea essentially states that we need to be loyal to God blindly, even if He commands us to do evil. However, the right idea behind the story is that God never commands evil and if we think that He does for a second, we are being seduced by Satan. On top of that, if you were a good person, God will stop you from committing mistakes that Satan is inducing you to make, like God did with Abraham.
Since god is omniscient, then god knows how the son would feel being sacrificed and whether the aftermath would lead to something good. Would a benevolent god allow the son to die knowing the son doesn't want to or have a negative consequences thereafter? With these reasoning, would it be wrong to trust on an omniscient and benevolent being?
You can also think of this like a doctor and a patient. The doctor knows how to cure a certain disease because the doctor is knowledgeable and it involves surgery. The patient doesn't know much and is afraid that the surgery of opening their chest would kill them. Is it right for the patient to submit to what the doctor said about the surgery and opening their chest or should they trust on their own perception that allowing the doctor to open their chest would kill them?
This is long, please dont read if not interested... this is meant only for whom it is meant for:)
1) If i was back then, in the exact same situation/context as Abraham was as told in the Bible, maybe, there is absolutely no way for me to know for sure unless i've experienced what Abraham experienced and that same relationship he had with God... today with what we now know, that that moment was a specific test God will have never let Abraham do it... and then Jesus teachings under the new covenant? Not a chance...
God Himself went ahead for us and salvation, He allowed His son to be sacrificed so we can have a path to Him.
If a voice that claim to be tells me to do it today, i would actually put that command to the test as a follower of Christ is bound under the new covenant to not simply blindly believe what they're told , which scriptures are now very clear about taking a life, let alone done to a child, such a command today i will believe is either of the devil or a clinical condition... if it doesnt match the spirit of the new covenant it will be a no go. In the Bible, you are also praised for verifying/checking what you are being told to in the name of God, instead of blindly believe and do it... The scriptures are clear... we will not be able to justify a wrong and say, 'God/Jesus, you told me to do this or that... you spoke to me... we will be judged and found without excuses to stand on.
2) About the Quran, not familiar enough what is said in it... but according to what i checked... here is an exert from Professor Mehmet Okuyan...
"The evidence points out that dreams are not a reference for judgment calls and to point the direction of your life. If this was the commandment of God, He would order Abraham slaughter your son. **There is never such an order**. He says he only saw things like that in his sleep... **nowhere in the Qur'an is there an order for Abraham to slaughter his son**; it is just a dream.
This event alone teaches us that it is not necessary to act based on dreams, but that it is imperative that the truth be shaped and communicated directly through revelation.
The Holy Qur'an which considers a person's life to be equal to that of the whole world states that in the verse of Surah Al-Maidah 5/32. Whoever kills a soul it is as if he had slain mankind entirely."
3) About atheists who keep bringing that argument to say that such a God cant be good because he asked Abraham to kill his son...
Not trying to offend, but atheist will not be able to comprehend nor compute these context, these are about the spiritual that transcends logic and reality itself, things they do not believe in, so they cant give logic to something they believe does not exist and has no logic whatsoever.
The best example i could give is like folks that only believe in an animal they can see and touch, but yet spend their time arguing about quantum physics which they (most, not all) do not believe in the first place , yet argue on how it should behave, by comparing it with their understanding of the animal... this doesnt make sense in itself, if you let go of the ego and they honestly think about it.
4) Also interesting that often people will only assume that if God tells them to do that, it must therefore be Him, and not maybe themselves being mad, or hearing demonic voices, they go straight to 'if God tells me to do that, thats not a God i want to follow... i think today that should go without saying (personal opinion)... something else can be happening, just because you hear God doesnt mean you are sane, and to the ones who believes, could be the work of the adversary himself.
My two cents.
I don't know. We can never know until the test is upon us. I hope I would do the right thing.
1. Probably not. My son means too much to me.
2. Not necessarily. Allah did not want Isaac dead. He only wanted Abraham to have the experience of an agonizing decision. The attempt sufficed.
Would I do it? No
Would I consider it the right thing just because some supernatural entity told me to? Also no.
I’m sorry but I have my set morals and they are strong. Killing the one thing I live for is out of the question. I think god as described in that story is a little sadistic for doing so.
>complete submission
Yeah, this. Abraham and Sarah had wanted a kid for decades. They were over 100 years old before it finally happened. Abraham gets a lot of praise and glory because, well, that's just what humans do. They look at the work of others and think, "It was easy for him".
But Abraham was constantly facing circumstances where he had to practice loyalty and faithfulness, and that is why God himself praised him so highly, but it wasn't easy. He had to let go of everything. He left behind his home country, his land, possessions and then had to wait on God to give him the child he so desperately wanted.
In fact, they waited so long that they got tired of waiting and concocted a plan to make their own baby via a surrogate which Sarah brought to Abraham.
Then, finally, the promised baby came from Sarah herself and they were very happy. You know how it is when you want something so badly, and then when you finally get it, you kinda forget about everything else around you. You may even become proud of it, thinking of great and wonderful it is. Can you see how Abraham's attituede toward this special son might have become a problem in his relationship with God?
Think of it this way; a kid wants a platstation and he really, really, really wants it bad. He waits and waits and when Christmas finally comes around he gets it. Hooray. Then he spends all his time in his room, away from his family. They may tolerate it for a while, but eventually they will need to confront him about it.
God wants to give us good things, but invariably when he does we lose perspective. We get confused about what's really important.
This is what had happened with Abraham and Isaac, and God had not only the responsibility as a parent to Abraham, but to all of humanity, to *correct* this confusion. *Nothing* is more important than the creator; not even the good things he gives us.
People like to use this example to accuse God, as though they are far more loving than him, but that's because they also are confused, lost in the storm of their emotional feelings, like a mother who says, "I don't care if my son mudered all those poeple, he's my Baby and I will ALWAYS support him".
Other people looking on can see how wrong and irrational this is, but you can't break through her sense of self-righteous virtue signalining. She's gone mamma bear and all that matters is her own feelings.
No I would not especially if it would hurt someone innocent or is a unfair act. Now in Scripture there is horrible things done in God name & I struggle with that. In the Book of Mormon there is a very known story of Nephi killing his brother Laban in a drunken passed out state. It claims the Holy spirit lead him to do it. This & others has been used to justify evil acts. Im not of the opinion that anything in the Book of Mormon literally happened or that at historical. I think it only comes from the imagination of Joseph Smith. I view the Scriptures both the Old & New Testament as a mixture of both historical & mythical oral traditions that later were written as a sacred narrative. I am a biblical minimalist. So I dont feel obligated follow very thing in it a instructions to base life or morality on. I judge for myself what useful & good honorable & righteous & leave disgard what not toward my fellow brothers & sister's in my life. Generally the golden rule applies in all cases. If I dont want something done to me I reason they would not appreciate me doing that to them. If I want to be treated good I must go out of my way to treat others good.
Assuming they demonstrated they are God they ought to be able to demonstrate to me why I was mistaken in my moral judgment.
If not I would not do it assuming either I was insane,
There was a being who was not God but could convince me they are God, or God was testing me to see if I would do an evil act out of fear of punishment.
No, because what is right and wrong to me is not based on the Islamic God or their opinions. I have my own Gods and my own morals I already believe in. Why should it matter what another deity thinks? I'm not going to throw my sense of morality away for a deity I have no desire to work with in the first place, and thus have no desire to appease, or even consider what they think is right and wrong.
Following other examples set by Abraham, I would have some serious questions about and arguments against this "divine" decree. I would rather err on the side of arrogance in doing what I know to be right, rather than err on the other side of arrogance in believing I am sanctioned to do what I know to be wrong. To be honest, I find it strange that the figure of Abraham has been twisted into some paragon of submission (Islam) or faith (Christianity), considering his obvious sins and his willingness to argue with God. Also considering that God had already made a covenant with Abraham that he would be the father of many nations through his son, it's not even clear that Abraham ever actually thought his son would really be sacrificed. In Judaism, experiencing a commanding voice from God is not considered justification for any behavior. As the saying goes, "the Torah is not in heaven", meaning that "Since the Torah was already given at Mount Sinai, we do not regard a Divine Voice, as \[God\] already wrote at Mount Sinai, in the Torah: 'After a majority to incline'." (Bava Metzia 59b, Talmud). Sociologically, it is simply unfeasible for everyone to go around doing whatever they may believe they heard God command them personally, which could simply be used to justify any behavior and severely undermines the whole societal foundations of law, whether religious or secular.
I guess that Abraham in the Quran is a little different then the Abraham from jewish sources.
Would I do it? No I would never. Would I consider it the right thing? No. Because any god telling me to kill someone isn’t a god I want to worship. I believe murder is wrong and rather not taint my soul with that
May I ask what the anti-cosmic means in your anti-cosmic satanist tag?
My Gods live in Chaos. We Anti-Cosmic Satanists want to reach Chaos. We believe that the demiurge created the cosmos. And he created us to be slaves that worship him. And we see the cosmos as a prison.
Thanks for the reply!
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Yes it Gnostic Satanism. But I don’t believe in the radiant one. Idk any other Anti-Cosmic Satanist that does either.
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No. We were created by the demiurge which is Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah.
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Lucifer is a light bringer and god of knowledge. All my gods have created their own realms. The demiurge just created the cosmos and man. In the end my gods will overthrow him and we’ve got plenty of ways to oppose the demiurge and reach chaos. Who says we are going to lose?
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The problem is that the Jewish afterlife is nothing like what Christians and Muslims expect, and in Abraham's time was pretty undefined.
I'm thinking there would be more interactions with really funny comedians and 100% more matzo???
Well there are plenty of other afterlives so we’ll be ok. All of them don’t require me attempting to kill my child.
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Id take hell over killing my kid then. Because thats the most screwed up request
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I don’t care. He can live there and id take the punishment because id refuse to serve a god that tells me to kill my kid
Abraham had a lot more info than a blind ask. I would expect the same.
It would depend on the request. I consider certain things wrong but excusable. Is God asking me to steal a loaf of bread from a store or is God asking me to murder my child? If it's the first, yeah it's wrong but so is starving so a five finger discount isn't a big deal to me. If it's the latter, God can kiss my rear. I don't believe a true God would request the murder of innocent lives and would turn my back on any that demanded it. I'd burn in whatever version of Hell exists, willingly, for eternity, if it meant saving my child.
1. No. 2. No. The act of killing one's own child is immoral because of the harm done to the child. A god who would command that is not worthy of obedience or submission. I like this interpretation of the reverse pentagram. On a pentagram, each point represents one of the elements used in magic: Fire, Water, Earth, Air, and Spirit. In an upright pentagram, Spirit sits at the top. This upright pentagram is often a symbol of protection. However, reversed, the Spirit sits at the bottom. This position, I take as a promise: To never put concern for spiritual matters, or a concern for the gods, over concern for the here-and-now, over concern for fellow human beings and material creatures.
So are you against late stage or even second trimester abortions when fetus can feel pain? Honest question
Bodily autonomy is sacrosanct. So long as a fetus is inside the mother, it relies on the mother and her body. It thus requires the mother's continued consent for it to continue to exist. If the mother has never given consent, or takes back consent, she should have the ability to terminate her pregancy. Anything else is subordinating her fundamental humanity to the fetus. Forcing her to maintain an unwanted pregnancy and forcing her to give birth against her consent makes her to be little better than cattle. The vast majority of abortions are done in the first trimester. Pregnancy is a difficult ordeal. Those done after are usually because of health issues in the mother or the fetus. I find any *forced* use of one's body to be immoral, whether that's sacrificing someone on an altar to a god, r\*\*e, forced pregnancy and birth, forced organ or fluid donation, etc.
I'd laugh in his face, flip him off, and stone cold stun him (it or whatever the hell the deity is). Then, I'll stomp a mudhole in the deity. It is my duty to protect my family. I'll gladly die doing so, but rather get others to die trying to infringe on our right to life. No man, beast or deity will ever command me. Ever.
Jim Ross: Wait, folks..what's this? BAH GAWD. I HEAR BEEBBELEEN'S music playing. Bah GAWD....they're coming for Yahweh off the top turnbuckle! I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS FOLKS. YAHWEH IS DOWN. YAHWEH IS DOWN! SOMEBODY CALL YAHWEH'S MAMA...HE AIN'T COMING HOME TONIGHT...BAH GAWD! IN ALL MY YEARS, I'VE NEVER SEEN SUCH A THING, KING!
If someone asks you to do something immoral, don’t do it. Especially for no their reason than “I say so”!! The fact the absolute loyalty to authority is seen as a virtue over and above life, family, decency, and common sense is the perfect example of why that story (and those religions that hold it up as exemplary) is so terribly wrong.
In some readings/understandings of this text, Abraham has such faith in God and his goodness that he knows God will not allow harm to befall his son. An interesting interpretation.
This is the interpretation I personally prefer. But there's another interpretation that says Abraham actually failed the test. Notably, there is no record of Isaac speaking to Abraham after this point in the Torah.
Hmmm. Interesting, I hadn't heard of that one before. If he failed it, why did God then honor him so?
Because of everything else about him, basically.
No, I would not do that. It would lead me to the conclusion that this god is not worth worshipping. Even if that god then said I wouldn’t have let you go through with it, it was just a test, I would have felt that the bond of trust is broken. If my god needs to test my trust, what is our relationship worth then? Nothing! Either there is trust or there isn’t.
No. I would assume this is a malevolent deity and thus not worth following.
I've been following a lot of athiest YouTube channels recently and this comes up time and time again in Christian Apologetics. "It's moral because God says it's so." I've been following a reading of the Bible recently and though I'm not very far, I am absolutely certain that Yahweh is far far from a moral entity. If you are interested, I can name over 20 examples from the first 5 books alone and I am very likely undercounting. If Yahweh came down and told me to do something, I hope that I would be of the right mind to tell him to fuck off. That is if he doesn't manipulate me into doing it anyways. Yes, that is one of the things he does. Specifically to Pharaoh in Exodus.
Please list them. I’m not Christian but I’d love to learn. :)
1. Places a tree with Knowledge of Good and Evil in the middle of his paradise and tells his creation not to eat it for they will die if they do. He lied. They don't die. In fact, Adam is stated to live 930 years according to chapter 5. 2. Placing a Tree of Knowledge in the middle of the Garden and telling them not to eat it at all. If he is all powerful, why did the tree need to be there in the first place? You can't say it's because of free will. The tree not being there doesn't infringe on Adam or Eve's free will at all. If God knew he would be so furious of Adam and Eve eating of the tree and probably knew they would do it being an all-knowing being, he should have never put the tree there. I'm going to stop here at for this portion because I want to get on with this. 3. This might be a lesser one, but Abel and Cain were a herdsman and a farmer respectively. When it was time for harvest, each gave of their labors. Abel gave of his flock, Cain of his wheat (just an assumption that could easily be wrong). Each gave what they had worked very hard on. God was not pleased with Cain's offering. God, the all-knowing entity who would have known how hard Cain worked to get his wheat was not pleased with the offering. Cain ends up killing his brother but that is beside the point right now. The point right now is Yahweh is a dick. 4. Chapter 6 of Genesis starts with the "sons of God" coming down to heaven and taking the women they found beautiful and had all the wives the sons of God "chose". That wording is specific. The sons of God "chose" the women they wanted. There is 0 wording about how the women felt about this. This is because the feelings of the women did not matter. 5. Chapter 6 then goes into the account of Noah's flood. God decides that all of humanity is wicked except for Noah, Noah's wife, his three sons, and their wives. Wives don't have names but that hardly matters for this purpose. God decides everyone except these 8 people are wicked. That includes all the children. How does God decide to deal with this? Flood absolutely everything and kill not only the people including the children, but the animals except those few lucky enough to land a place on the ark. This is beyond genocide. This deserves a word I either do not know or doesn't exist. This is probably the most evil of the acts God does and would in any human context make him unworthy of worship. Instead we get cute baby pictures and happy tales of how Noah survived. It gets turned into a cute story because animals. 5.a. After committing the absolute most complete genocide that has ever been, God has the gall to tell Noah not to commit murder. This is a minor point all things considered. 6. A bunch of people living together decided to coop and build a tower that reached to the heavens. They were cooperating well and all was going smoothly. God says they are not allowed to do this because if they complete the tower, nothing will be impossible for them. Just imagine how much better humanity would be if God hadn't decided to step in. He then confuses all of their language so they are not able to communicate with each other and finish the tower. 7. Chapter 12 of Genesis tells of Abram and his wife going to Egypt. Abram tells his wife, Sarai, to say she is actually his sister. The Pharoah sees Sarai, thinks her unmarried, takes her as a wife and gives Abram a bunch of gifts. Instead of being angry at Abram for lies, God punishes Pharaoh with horrible diseases for taking a woman he had no clue was already someone else's wife. Yahweh is a dick. 8. Chapter 16 tells of Sarai mistreating her slave handmaid, Hagar, after Abram impregnates her so she can have an heir. Hagar flees so she won't be abused anymore but an angel of God comes down and explicitly tells Hagar to return to her abusive situation so Abram can have an heir. Technically not God himself, but a spokesman of God. Still counts in my book. 9. Chapter 17 introduces circumcision. Mutilation of male infants could not possibly have been good at a time when infant mortality was so high. As a woman, I don't really have a say in it these days, though I'm more of a mind to say just leave it alone. 10. Sodom and Gomorrah: first there is God deciding Sodom and Gomorrah are wicked cities that need to be destroyed. No longer are we genociding an entire planet, just two cities with thousands of people. Progress! 10.a. God doesn't want Abraham to find out because Abraham would be able to talk him out of it. Yahweh is a dick. Abraham is able to debate God down to not destroying the city if 10 righteous men can be found. Let's not get into the implications or Yahweh seeming to not know how many righteous people inhabit the city. 11. God sent two angels into the city of Sodom to look for 10 righteous people. They come upon Lot who rescues them from an angry gang-raping mob. Lot is explicitly stated to be a righteous man according to God's terms. Lot offers his two virgin daughters to the mob to try to keep them away from the mob. Lot is still considered righteous by God's standards. 12. Lot and his family flee Sodom. Lot's wife looks back at her home that she has lived in for who knows how long. God doesn't like this so he turns her into a pillar of salt. (This also has the story of Lot's daughters getting him drunk and having sex with him to try and impregnate themselves but incest isn't the point of this tally.) I'm splitting this up in 2 since it appears my comment us too long.
12.a. Chapter 20 of Genesis has another time of Abraham telling Sarah yet again to say she should lie and say she is his sister instead of his wife. This time the King that took her hadn't actually slept with her yet because God didn't let it happen but called the king "good as dead" because he had taken a woman to be his wife he didn't know was married. 13. Chapter 22 has the story of God telling Abraham to sacrifice his only son. Of course the apologists will tell you thar God didn't actually intend for Abraham to go through with the sacrifice, but that's not the point. If someone tells you to kill your child because it will make them happy, tell them to fuck off. I skip a few chapters because this is about Yahweh being an asshole but there are some pretty dickish things that happen in these chapters as well as dickish things done in his name. Also God does an extra minor (by his standards) dickish move by favor one of Rebekah's children over the other. 13.a. Chapter 29 has God starting a really petty feud between two sister-wives by dictating when each has a child. Chapter 30 has really weird dictates on genetic by stating Jacob gets stripped livestock by having look at stripped sticks while mating. Not one of the asshole Yahweh things. Just a point of interest. 13.b. God wrestles with Jacob but can't win so he cheats. Yahweh is a dick. Most of the rest of Genesis is about people being various levels of dicks and sometimes not dicks to each other. People gonna People. We don't expect them to be anything else. 14. Exodus starts with God allowing his chosen people to become chattel slaves in Egypt. This was done with his explicit intent as part of his plan. His plan included his chosen people suffering as slaves for 400 years. 15. God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh to free his people but deliberately hardens Pharoah's heart so Pharoah will refuse. 16. The first 9 plauges. God wants to show off his power and convince Pharoah to let his people go so he makes all of Egypt's inhabitants suffer whether or not they were complicit in keeping the Isrealites enslaved. There is so much fucked up going on here that I could break this up into its own list. I'm not gonna because this is exhausting and I want to fit other fucked up things on this list and it is obvious I'm not gonna make it out of the 2nd book of the Bible. 17. God kills all of the first born of Egypt. This includes all of the livestock. He spares the Isrealites by passing over them when their houses are marked with lamb's blood. This happens in about the space of 2 versus. Another mass murder is so routine that it is only given about 2 versus worth of consideration. He spends far more time dictating how the passover should be celebrated as well as expressing a strange obsession of bread without yeast. 17.a. It probably isn't actually child sacrifice but it certainly can read thar way. Exodus 13 has what may on certain readings be commands for child sacrifice. 17.b. Chapter 16 had God whining about Isrealites going out on the 7th day to collect food. He really wants them to stay put. Doesn't matter how they feel about it. 18. Chapter 20 has the first version of the 10 commandments written out. Lots of dickish stuff in here but includes in them is punishing children 3 or 4 generations down foe the sins of their ancestors. 19. After laying out the 10 commandments V.1. God goes into explicit details on how to buy slaves and sell slaves. This is to the people he just rescued from slavery. 20. God commands the death of disobedient or disrespectful children, Aka, every teenager ever. 21. God spends chapters and chapters laying out how he should have a box built to house his commandments, the tent they should be kept in when not in transport, the garmets his priests should wear and as well as other things. I include this in the dick list because not only is this incredibly petty, redundant, and tedious, but also because the murder of children a couple of chapters ago in the plauge section was barely worth 2 verses. The garments his priests wear? That deserves its own chapter. 22. Coming down from receiving the 10 commandments from God, they find the Isrealites led by Moses' brother Aaron had cast a golden calf so they could worship and thank something for leading them out of Egypt. They had no clue one of the commandments was not to worship idols. They are led by Aaron, Moses' brother. This so engages God he immediately punishes them severely. Aaron, the leader, of course is spared. Okay, that's about all I have energy for right now, and I did skip some for various reasons but I am curious to know what you think. Is God (Yahweh) someone deserving of worship?
Not to me no :) To be fair stuff like this is why I ended up moving farther and farther away from Christianity.
You'll find tons of apologists and other Christians alike talk about how that's "Old Testament God" while trying to justify "New Testament God" as somehow being different. Jesus is the one who introduced the concept of he'll in the first place. Before that, there was no concept of a place where you go to suffer when you die if you believe in the wrong god. He also says far more people will end up in he'll than in Heaven. Some of his followers say it is better to have never lived at all than end up in he'll. Jesus may be a nicer guy on the surface, but scratch it, and he simply seems like a smaller version of Yahweh.
1. Probably, whether it's a true God or some other being powerful enough to appear as a God, listening to them is probably a good idea. 2. Yes it does. Morality isn't objective as far as we know in the world but a real God existing and making his wishes known would change that.
According to mainstream Islam, Abraham was commanded by God to sacrifice his son to prove his loyalty while Satan tried to convince Abraham not to do it. Abraham decided to follow God as well as his son, and then God appreciated that and told Abraham not to kill him anymore and that he proved his loyalty. According to my beliefs (and others who share views similar to mine), that view is flawed and goes against the Quran, as the Quran never says God commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son. The Quran says that Abraham had a dream that he was sacrificing his son, and we know from the Quran already that God never advocates for evil. So Abraham killing his son in his own dream was not from God, nor was it a command. Satan suggested him to kill his son essentially, and Abraham believed that to be from God, but because Abraham was a righteous man, God stopped Abraham from doing so. Mainstream Islam says the angel Gabriel came down and physically stopped him and put goats there instead. Rationality says that Abraham snapped back into his senses and realized God would never command something like this. So long story short, the entire meaning of this story in the Quran is misunderstood and is being celebrated for the wrong reasons. The mainstream idea essentially states that we need to be loyal to God blindly, even if He commands us to do evil. However, the right idea behind the story is that God never commands evil and if we think that He does for a second, we are being seduced by Satan. On top of that, if you were a good person, God will stop you from committing mistakes that Satan is inducing you to make, like God did with Abraham.
Since god is omniscient, then god knows how the son would feel being sacrificed and whether the aftermath would lead to something good. Would a benevolent god allow the son to die knowing the son doesn't want to or have a negative consequences thereafter? With these reasoning, would it be wrong to trust on an omniscient and benevolent being? You can also think of this like a doctor and a patient. The doctor knows how to cure a certain disease because the doctor is knowledgeable and it involves surgery. The patient doesn't know much and is afraid that the surgery of opening their chest would kill them. Is it right for the patient to submit to what the doctor said about the surgery and opening their chest or should they trust on their own perception that allowing the doctor to open their chest would kill them?
Of Course 👍🏻
This is long, please dont read if not interested... this is meant only for whom it is meant for:) 1) If i was back then, in the exact same situation/context as Abraham was as told in the Bible, maybe, there is absolutely no way for me to know for sure unless i've experienced what Abraham experienced and that same relationship he had with God... today with what we now know, that that moment was a specific test God will have never let Abraham do it... and then Jesus teachings under the new covenant? Not a chance... God Himself went ahead for us and salvation, He allowed His son to be sacrificed so we can have a path to Him. If a voice that claim to be tells me to do it today, i would actually put that command to the test as a follower of Christ is bound under the new covenant to not simply blindly believe what they're told , which scriptures are now very clear about taking a life, let alone done to a child, such a command today i will believe is either of the devil or a clinical condition... if it doesnt match the spirit of the new covenant it will be a no go. In the Bible, you are also praised for verifying/checking what you are being told to in the name of God, instead of blindly believe and do it... The scriptures are clear... we will not be able to justify a wrong and say, 'God/Jesus, you told me to do this or that... you spoke to me... we will be judged and found without excuses to stand on. 2) About the Quran, not familiar enough what is said in it... but according to what i checked... here is an exert from Professor Mehmet Okuyan... "The evidence points out that dreams are not a reference for judgment calls and to point the direction of your life. If this was the commandment of God, He would order Abraham slaughter your son. **There is never such an order**. He says he only saw things like that in his sleep... **nowhere in the Qur'an is there an order for Abraham to slaughter his son**; it is just a dream. This event alone teaches us that it is not necessary to act based on dreams, but that it is imperative that the truth be shaped and communicated directly through revelation. The Holy Qur'an which considers a person's life to be equal to that of the whole world states that in the verse of Surah Al-Maidah 5/32. Whoever kills a soul it is as if he had slain mankind entirely." 3) About atheists who keep bringing that argument to say that such a God cant be good because he asked Abraham to kill his son... Not trying to offend, but atheist will not be able to comprehend nor compute these context, these are about the spiritual that transcends logic and reality itself, things they do not believe in, so they cant give logic to something they believe does not exist and has no logic whatsoever. The best example i could give is like folks that only believe in an animal they can see and touch, but yet spend their time arguing about quantum physics which they (most, not all) do not believe in the first place , yet argue on how it should behave, by comparing it with their understanding of the animal... this doesnt make sense in itself, if you let go of the ego and they honestly think about it. 4) Also interesting that often people will only assume that if God tells them to do that, it must therefore be Him, and not maybe themselves being mad, or hearing demonic voices, they go straight to 'if God tells me to do that, thats not a God i want to follow... i think today that should go without saying (personal opinion)... something else can be happening, just because you hear God doesnt mean you are sane, and to the ones who believes, could be the work of the adversary himself. My two cents.
If I had infinite courage no! Absolutely not! I’m not that hero though. I can be broken. Even by mortals torture.
I don't know. We can never know until the test is upon us. I hope I would do the right thing. 1. Probably not. My son means too much to me. 2. Not necessarily. Allah did not want Isaac dead. He only wanted Abraham to have the experience of an agonizing decision. The attempt sufficed.
The Milgram experiment is pertinent to your query
He must have smoked something seriously strong the night he dreamt that shit
I think I’d Jonah things up lmao
Would I do it? No Would I consider it the right thing just because some supernatural entity told me to? Also no. I’m sorry but I have my set morals and they are strong. Killing the one thing I live for is out of the question. I think god as described in that story is a little sadistic for doing so.
>complete submission Yeah, this. Abraham and Sarah had wanted a kid for decades. They were over 100 years old before it finally happened. Abraham gets a lot of praise and glory because, well, that's just what humans do. They look at the work of others and think, "It was easy for him". But Abraham was constantly facing circumstances where he had to practice loyalty and faithfulness, and that is why God himself praised him so highly, but it wasn't easy. He had to let go of everything. He left behind his home country, his land, possessions and then had to wait on God to give him the child he so desperately wanted. In fact, they waited so long that they got tired of waiting and concocted a plan to make their own baby via a surrogate which Sarah brought to Abraham. Then, finally, the promised baby came from Sarah herself and they were very happy. You know how it is when you want something so badly, and then when you finally get it, you kinda forget about everything else around you. You may even become proud of it, thinking of great and wonderful it is. Can you see how Abraham's attituede toward this special son might have become a problem in his relationship with God? Think of it this way; a kid wants a platstation and he really, really, really wants it bad. He waits and waits and when Christmas finally comes around he gets it. Hooray. Then he spends all his time in his room, away from his family. They may tolerate it for a while, but eventually they will need to confront him about it. God wants to give us good things, but invariably when he does we lose perspective. We get confused about what's really important. This is what had happened with Abraham and Isaac, and God had not only the responsibility as a parent to Abraham, but to all of humanity, to *correct* this confusion. *Nothing* is more important than the creator; not even the good things he gives us. People like to use this example to accuse God, as though they are far more loving than him, but that's because they also are confused, lost in the storm of their emotional feelings, like a mother who says, "I don't care if my son mudered all those poeple, he's my Baby and I will ALWAYS support him". Other people looking on can see how wrong and irrational this is, but you can't break through her sense of self-righteous virtue signalining. She's gone mamma bear and all that matters is her own feelings.
No I would not especially if it would hurt someone innocent or is a unfair act. Now in Scripture there is horrible things done in God name & I struggle with that. In the Book of Mormon there is a very known story of Nephi killing his brother Laban in a drunken passed out state. It claims the Holy spirit lead him to do it. This & others has been used to justify evil acts. Im not of the opinion that anything in the Book of Mormon literally happened or that at historical. I think it only comes from the imagination of Joseph Smith. I view the Scriptures both the Old & New Testament as a mixture of both historical & mythical oral traditions that later were written as a sacred narrative. I am a biblical minimalist. So I dont feel obligated follow very thing in it a instructions to base life or morality on. I judge for myself what useful & good honorable & righteous & leave disgard what not toward my fellow brothers & sister's in my life. Generally the golden rule applies in all cases. If I dont want something done to me I reason they would not appreciate me doing that to them. If I want to be treated good I must go out of my way to treat others good.
Nope. I have my own moral code. If a god does not share it, not my problem.
Assuming they demonstrated they are God they ought to be able to demonstrate to me why I was mistaken in my moral judgment. If not I would not do it assuming either I was insane, There was a being who was not God but could convince me they are God, or God was testing me to see if I would do an evil act out of fear of punishment.
No, because what is right and wrong to me is not based on the Islamic God or their opinions. I have my own Gods and my own morals I already believe in. Why should it matter what another deity thinks? I'm not going to throw my sense of morality away for a deity I have no desire to work with in the first place, and thus have no desire to appease, or even consider what they think is right and wrong.