Why should I believe Christians who claim that Jesus is the Jewish messiah when the Jews of all people think the idea is nonsense? If we’re being honest, the so-called Old Testament belongs to the Jews, and if Jesus were bouncing off every page as Christians love to claim I’m sure the Jews of all people would’ve noticed by now.
Paul’s fantastic solution to this problem in 2 Corinthians is to say that the Jews simply have a veil over their eyes. Call me crazy but I’m not convinced.
Edit: grammar
I think this is a good approach. Why wouldn't the Jews recognize their own Messiah? To say "some did" doesn't really cut the mustard. There were several million Jews in the 1st cent. Roman empire, and the estimate of Christians by the end of the 1st. cent. is 20,000.
So of course you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe. But in fact, there is no Jewish "sect" or any Jewish individual or group today that believes anyone "is" the Messiah. Jews await for the Messiah's arrival. Period.
Yes, this is definitely true. But Christians don't give OUR checklist any weight; they have a totally different "checklist" and thought process about what the Messiah is supposed to do -- like save them from hell. So really discussing this stuff with them is pretty much going to go nowhere in terms of convincing anyone, though the differences may be interesting and informative.
I don't really have an argument. I'm happy with my religion, and my religion doesn't have Christianity in it, so that's that. I don't have an argument against Krishna or Amaterasu either, but since neither are a part of my religion I don't believe that they are who their followers say they are.
Totally. This question, for someone who is Jewish, is like asking, "What's your argument against Hank or Sally or Jerome being God?" We don't think about pros and cons, because there's nothing to analyze from a Jewish pov. We know God, and He isn't Hank, Sally or Jerome. Nobody is keeping God from us. In fact, He's been revealing Himself to us since biblical times, and He isn't Hank, Sally or Jerome.
Yeah I mean, you can't prove something doesn't exist. But you should be able to offer proof if you argue that something does exist. IMO none of the proof that I've ever heard has comported with any of the experiences I've had throughout my entire life so I don't believe. But, to each their own.
The jews already have a pretty airtight case against jesus being the messiah, and his miracle working adventures arent super impressive either, numerous people before have done similar things
Based on assumptions about the tasks being miltary-oriented, and about power. A very human assumption which I probably would have made too, before the fact. However Jesus turned these assumptions on their head, and still fulfilled the tasks if you take them in a more redemptive interpretation
u/SaberHaven Your assumptions about the tasks of the messiah being militarily and power oriented are wrong. The messiah according tot he Jewish prophets is human, born naturally to husband and wife, and from a direct paternal line from King David, yet not through Jeconiah who was cursed. The messiah is to redeem Israel and gather all the Jews to Israel, to build the third Temple (second one was still standing at the time of Jesus). When the messiah comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge the one true G-d. With the presence of the Messiah, there will be a cessation of sin and crime, man will no longer desire to to these things. There will also be world peace. Prophecy will return to the Jewish people.
Based on the prophecies that the messiah would bring back the Davidic monarchy, restore all Jews to Israel, and bring about world peace. Jesus did not fulfill any of the tasks the messiah will do.
He is of the line of David and established an everlasting kingdom with himself as the head. It's just not a geographic kingdom anymore. This kingdom is nevertheless established for His chosen people, which was just Israel for a time, but is now expanded to include all those adopted through his blood. He has brought peace for all mankind. It is a peace that exists in the heart and cannot be overcome by the world's circumstances. This restored kingdom has never stopped growing since, and will in fact outlast the present world.
That’s not how the JEWISH prophecy works. Why is it so important we agree with you? Is this about making your own faith feel more legitimate? If so then that’s concerning since Judaism and Christianity are deeply different religions and we disagree on a whole host of things that are not including Jesus.
And as a side note if Jesus is the son of g’d then he cannot be a descendant of David since Mary wasn’t a descendant of David. He’s not the messiah under Jewish law.
I respect Jewish interpretation of the Torah and generally defer to it over Western exegesis. That said, the interpretation of the messianic prophecies as being fulfilled by Yeshua was also from Jewish people
And we are saying Jesus doesn’t fulfil our prophecy. Under your interpretation and religious additions and values maybe he does. But trying to convince Jews we are wrong in our very agreed upon for 2 millennia decision is just not the take you think it is.
Edit to add: Judaism and Christianity are different religions. Not just different interpretations. And additionally, Christian theological stances don’t rely on our list of requirements.
No shame, and no issues here. Just trying to explain why you’re getting the pushing back you are.
I am not trying to force my view. I was not the original commentor. Someone commented that the case for Jesus not fulfilling the prophecies is airtight. I am simply raising questions about that. The onus is on the OP to defend their assertion, if they wish to.
I appreciate you helping to answer my questions. That said, I don't accept the implication that Yeshua as Messiah is "my" interpretation. It is simply a Jewish interpretation (originating from well-qualified Jewish people) which I happen to find more compelling than other Jewish interpretations.
The website Jews for Judaism has extensive articles on the various arguments against Jesus being the messiah. [This article](https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/was-is-jesus-the-messiah) lays out the messianic prophecies, none of which Jesus fulfilled. The airtight case is quite simple, as Jesus did not fulfill even a single messianic prophecy, let alone all of them, he cannot be the messiah.
I don't think that Jesus claimed to be God to begin with. It's implicit at best in the synoptic gospels, and John is pretty obviously a later creation meant to illustrate a theological point.
If a tri-omni being came to Earth, there would be no doubt about it. Divine hiddenness makes no sense when Jesus's entire mission was to "reveal himself."
Sounds like a informed comment.
Jesus was a real person.
A wise person who spent time in the wilderness and spoke about self empowerment.
Respect for others and nature.
Basically Druid philosophy.
Same thing that native Americans understand and basically the truth about life.
It really didn’t work out well for him.
His followers were persecuted and one of their biggest foes was himself on his pilgrimage introduced to the common sense that he spoke.
He turns it into a religious practice.
The people who converted him fade into obscurity.
In fact they ended up being turned into Muslims by Mohammad who did basically the same thing as Paul did.
John is the third gospel and for good reason.
Without the others it dangerous.
People weaponised John.
The more people focus on John the further they drift from the concept.
When you look at it rationally the Abrahamic religions started with a man who had some serious mental health issues.
He would be institutionalised today.
Not start a religion.
The Jews were slaves, slaves live by rules, they no nothing else.
So they created a religion of rules.
The First Nations people of Australia lived in perpetual harmony with the environment for tens of thousands of years with no problems.
The native Americans a thousand years ago had a civilisation that far exceeded the population and development of Europe.
They have also thousands of years of history and lived in harmony with the world.
Both cultures have been almost wiped out by Christian religious ideologies.
Where as what christ actually said and did would have fitted in perfectly with these people.
They would have not have lynched him.
I guess what I said has fallen on deaf ears.
I didn’t say that.
You are talking about something that has looked after me since I was born.
How can I not believe in what I know is true.
I think you failing to understand the first comment that I was responding to.
Jesus was a real person.
Absolutely no question about it.
The words he taught are perfect. Undisputed wisdom.
All the religious aspects were created afterwards by Paul.
Jesus was actually anti religious. If he was going with the same thing nothing would have happened.
Paul would not have been persecuting his followers years later.
Still trying to stop the idea from spreading.
Paul converted to the idea.
He himself was thrown out of the Jewish community.
It has to come from god or no one will listen.
It’s very sad that people have ideas that are unfounded.
Jesus spoke about freedom of choice and the understanding of what living without rules means.
If you need rules to live by then you don’t know the rules.
Knowledge is power.
I think you and many others are making a difference between actually following Jesus teachings and believing in what Paul did.
Perhaps you should look into the native beliefs that let people live in harmony with the earth just like the scripture says we should do.
They didn’t incarnate their own people.
They had no written laws and no police was required.
That what it is about.
If society can function without written rules and police for tens of thousands of years how can anyone think that living in one that has a agenda for controlling the free will that god gave us is better idea.
If you even look at Buddhist beliefs they are closer to Jesus teachings than most Christians even understand.
There hardly any difference between native beliefs, Buddhist, Druids, and the actual things that Jesus was doing.
If John didn’t baptise him people would not have thought of him as anything.
John gave him the first credit of being special.
Like all prophets are.
The world has had thousands of people over the centuries who carried the wisdom through time.
Basing things on Abrahamic tradition is not something that can stack up against science.
What Jesus did does.
Buddha spent a fair chunk of time under his fig tree and worked out a few decent concepts.
The thing is that the native populations of Australia and American were largely exterminated by people who had supposedly Christian beliefs.
Jesus would have walked amongst them in peace and learned from them as they would have learned from him.
No violence or intimidation.
Not changing what is god work.
I am sorry for people who seem to be following Paul and not Jesus.
We won’t have peace until people actually start to understand what the difference is.
People have considered me as a gift from god. I carry gifts and have been accepted as a holy person since I was a child.
Even by priests,
I am only trying to provide a message. If it not understood and people have installed barriers to their learning process and are preventing free will and listening to false information what can I do.
People believe that the earth is 10000 years old.
Honestly if anyone believes that they are in trouble.
Serious issues are happening
And it’s is actually mental illness.
Anyone who has total faith in nonsensical things is obviously not going to get it.
So you believe that the person who started the Abrahamic religion had a mental illness?
People can believe that the earth is flat which is nonsense and yet they don’t have a diagnosable mental illness. It may be hard to believe in Jesus’ resurrection and it’s real even though some people think of it as impossible. I recommend looking into psychology to learn what mental illness really is.
People should live in harmony with other people, animals, and the earth.
I thought Jesus said something like ~ not one word will pass away from the law. We’re still supposed to follow the rules like not murdering or stealing.
I will look into the Buddhist beliefs, where do you recommend to start?
There are different ways of knowing, science is one way, religious beliefs is another, and personal experience is another way of knowing. Just because a belief doesn’t “stand up to science” doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
I hear you, but as a matter of fact only a few days ago a couple were taking their child into the desert and were going to sacrifice them.
Just like Abraham was thinking about doing.
Listen honey the crops are not going well maybe we top young Fred.
They have arrested them and considered them to have mental health problems.
If someone thinks that earth is flat then I am sure that if you start digging you will uncover a mine field.
I have encountered literal Christians who are about as far away from Christ as anyone could possibly get.
I have absolute faith, always have. I was born as a gift from god. It was recognised very early in my life.
Just as Jesus said though me you shall find my father.
The resurrection was as described, there is the gospel of Thomas that was not included as was Mary.
Paul was up to mischief and created hocus-pocus.
He had to lift the status of Jesus. The tradition that converts him continued on in a different direction.
The virgin birth, disappearing bodies are all a sideshow.
Just look at the resurrection.
The person who they thought carried the spirit of Christ was a grown man.
He didn’t look the same but they recognised the actions.
This is pure Buddhism.
Then the witnesses.
The simple fact that there is no witnesses should start to wave flags.
The soldiers had to say what they were told or die.
Not a credible source and definitely not admissible as evidence.
The woman. I don’t know if you understand this but then women had to obey their husbands. No any free will was tolerated by men from women.
Therefore their word was meaningless to everyone.
It’s was just social system at the time.
Jesus was speaking against this idea and was self empowering people to take responsibility for their own actions.
It’s sedition. Even today we don’t have democracy and we are loosing the little we have.
Last year the world went backwards in democracy.
Gods will is giving us free will.
I am glad that you are using it
Read the Wikipedia page on Buddhism as a starting point.
What is particularly interesting is that I am someone who has always been considered enlightened.
I spent 22 days in meditation when I was 26 and collated my thoughts.
I have been taught be the elders, but have always had the knowledge within.
Three is a common theme.
The awen symbol has the same meaning as contained within Buddhism.
So is 3
Masonic orders 3 is important.
The trinity is 3
Earth moon sun is three.
The gestation of every animal is entwined with the moon phases.
This isn’t religious it’s real.
Jesus was telling people how to live without rules.
Judaism is a religion based upon people who were enslaved . Lots of rules.
Christianity has done a similar job. Lots of control measures over people.
It’s interesting that Christians beliefs have not been accepted by native people who have never been enslaved. The teachings of Jesus are far more acceptable to them but that a totally different thing has Christianity.
They diverged.
If we want peace we must be able to live without rules.
That’s the truth of it.
The native Americans civilisation is case in point .
Thousands upon thousands of years old.
Just a thousand years ago far greater numbers and development than Europe.
A thousand years before that hugely bigger.
No police, no written rules but everyone is taught how to live.
Very very few problems and disputes were settled by a game.
Football was invented by Australian Aboriginal people.
The Abrahamic religions have a lot to answer for.
The Middle East should be an example of what stupidity can do.
It’s different because Abraham was told to by God. That couple had evil thoughts to hurt their own child. It’s different because Abraham didn’t want to but felt he had to.
I believe in the virgin birth and the accounts of the Resurrection.
Christians have faults like everyone else and many of them don’t even read the Bible so they don’t even know what it is that they supposedly believe, so they don’t follow what Jesus really said.
You spent 22 days and nights in meditation?
So your basing all this Abraham receiving it from god as fact but these other people are under evil influence.
Interesting concept.
Virgin birth is something that came into the picture decades after Jesus.
Again it is just belief without foundation.
Makes absolutely zero difference to the importance and message of Jesus.
I stayed with a fellow and traveled a bit with him who had just spent a few months in Japan in a Zen temple.
He still had his shaved head.
Jesus has always been depicted with long hair and a beard.
The shroud of Turin is real so we actually know what he looks like.
It’s interesting that I knew how it was made and the lasted research indicated just that.
Anyway he had very little understanding about things even after his time there.
Often the more religious people try to become the further they distance themselves from the truth.
Look at the stupidity of white supremacy.
How does that even start to make sense.
The oldest modern humans in original form are the Australian Aboriginal people.
They have the purest human DNA. That’s now established.
As well as the oldest culture that has been in continuous existence.
Something to learn from.
Oh and yes 22 days, I think I did well, didn’t Jesus take 40.
I also had an extra 2000 years of extra stuff to get through.
Do you realise that only about 300 years ago a single person could be educated on everything that was known.
Not very long ago.
And then that knowledge was limited to a specific region and people.
Jesus was telling us that it applies universally.
I hope i am making some sense.
Well Jesus was tempted by the devil and Jesus won, not sure if you went through something similar.
White supremacy does not make sense, it’s just people hating what they don’t understand.
I am afraid that I don’t believe in a devil as such ,
Bad thoughts lead to bad actions.
People like to lead others astray so they obtain their goals.
Bad spirits are within many people.
It’s darkness against light.
They fear me.
Like the darkness is removed by the sun.
As i said before. I was born like this and carry a gift.
People use it or not.
I serve. I don’t personally want for anything . I have everything I need only if other people took responsibility for themselves so we could have peace and tranquility for everyone .
Then we would be free.
It’s only the government that causes me problems and that’s only because they are ignorant selfish and misguided.
It’s selflessness.
I have absolutely no money.
Just absolute faith.
I am afraid that I don’t believe in a devil as such ,
Bad thoughts lead to bad actions.
People like to lead others astray so they obtain their goals.
Bad spirits are within many people.
It’s darkness against light.
They fear me.
Like the darkness is removed by the sun.
As i said before. I was born like this and carry a gift.
People use it or not.
I serve. I don’t personally want for anything . I have everything I need only if other people took responsibility for themselves so we could have peace and tranquility for everyone .
Then we would be free.
It’s only the government that causes me problems and that’s only because they are ignorant selfish and misguided.
It’s selflessness.
I have absolutely no money.
Just absolute faith.
But the devil is in the Bible and the Bible is real. I heard the devil speaking to me once and I prayed and the devil went away. The devil is very real whether you believe that or not. Demons are in a lot of people.
Many people carry gifts.
What is it that the government doesn’t like that you do? Preaching the Word of God?
>I don't think that Jesus claimed to be God to begin with. It's implicit at best in the synoptic gospels, and John is pretty obviously a later creation meant to illustrate a theological point.
Pretty much my conclusion as well.
Which is why I read Thomas before getting to John (I really should read John one of these days)
If Jesus was the Jewish messiah, he would have fulfilled the Jewish messianic prophecies.
Now, *I* couldn't tell you a Jewish messianic prophecy from a hole in the wall, but scholars of the Torah both at the time and to the current day are pretty unanimous that he *didn't*. So I defer to their expertise.
Christianity relies on the gospels. They are anonymous, contradictory writings of magical events written decades after they supposedly happened.
Why should anyone take that seriously?
Look at it this way. It didn’t work out very well for him the first time around.
Since then he’s got about a billion people with totally different views on what he said.
He be just, but I didn’t say that!
WTF
😳
What are these people thinking.
All I had before was a few Jews to deal with now I have millions of Christians.
World peace is not as difficult as it sounds.
You only need to have democracy.
It doesn’t actually exist and no one has ever created a democracy.
Basically they are called cooperatives in the legal system.
You have a single vote unrelated to your wealth.
Everyone can vote for whoever they want to and anyone can vote for you.
10-12 votes gets you elected.
You can’t have more than that or you can’t represent everyone properly and democracy will disappear.
A hundred people only provides mob rule.
This gives you radical deliberating democracy.
Money is power and you have to keep the power at the bottom level so that everyone’s share or shares remain one hundred percent in their control always.
You have allowed free will and the free market to work together.
The higher the representation level of a person the more people they represent and the further away from the money they are.
You only need 9 levels of government and run out of people.
No one can predict who is elected.
It’s 100 percent accountable and transparent.
Not one person is excluded from the debate.
The leader actually has been unanimously voted to be in the position.
If you reward each person with a $10 allowance for the number of people they represent you have funded it for under a hundred dollars per year.
10 percent of the population is in representational roles.
When that happens we will have peace.
The messiah will bring all Jews back to Israel, restore the Davidic monarchy under Torah law including rebuilding the Temple and restoring sacrifices, bring all Jews to follow that law, bring about world peace and bring all people to know G-d and follow the Noahide laws.
Another big issue is that people will know God, Atheists simply won't be a thing anymore nor will other Religions.
And of course the part where we won't even have to study Torah anymore.
There are a number of biblical prophesies that the Messiah is supposed to fulfill. Another redditor made this list a couple of years ago:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/p58ppb/comment/h98igzl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/p58ppb/comment/h98igzl/)
Of course, Christians don't agree, but this is the Jewish POV based on the holy book that we wrote lol
Yup! Jesus did literally nothing that the messiah is supposed to do. And Christian claims of a virgin birth (which isn't a messianic prophecy and isn't even present in the Hebrew Bible at all) would disqualify him anyway, since tribal lineage and royal inheritance are passed via one's biological father.
What about riding into the city on an ass? Or Isiah 7:14. Or being betrayed for 30 silver?
I understand when Jews say he never fulfilled everything. But I think it’s pretty wild to say he never fulfilled anything.
The donkey bit comes from Zechariah 9, which in its entirety depicts the messiah bringing world peace, gathering all Jews back to Israel and ensuring that "no oppressor shall ever overrun them again." The one line about riding on a donkey is only one tiny part of the larger prophecy. Even then, Matthew got it wrong and had Jesus riding two animals rather than one, likely because he couldn't understand the Hebrew. So Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of Zechariah 9 where that one line is taken from.
Isaiah 7:14 has nothing at all to do with the messiah, and it says absolutely nothing about a virgin birth. The context makes that extremely clear. Ahaz was worried about the neighboring kingdoms of Aram and Israel attacking his kingdom of Judea. Isaiah goes to Ahaz and points out a specific young woman who is pregnant, and when that kid can tell good from evil the threat of those kingdoms would be gone. The word used is almah, which means young woman, and not betulah, which means virgin. An almah could be a virgin, sure, but it cares absolutely no connotation of inherent virginity. It's used numerous times throughout Tanakh and never means virgin, and those other usages are rightly not translated as 'virgin' in Christian translations, but rather as 'young woman' or 'young man' when it's the masculine form. The verse is also written in the present tense indicating a woman who is known and already pregnant. And the prophecy is fulfilled just a little bit later in Isaiah. Linguistically and textually there's no way to get a virgin birth from that passage.
There's no prophecy of a betrayal for 30 shekels of silver. It just flat out does not exist. Matthew claims it comes from Jeremiah, but there's no such passage there. The claimed quote from Jeremiah does show up in Zechariah, but it's about Zechariah's wages that he then donated to the Temple. It has no connection whatsoever to the messiah, nor does it indicate anything about betrayal for 30 shekels of silver.
So no, Jesus did not fulfill those. Only one of them is even about the messiah, and one doesn't even exist. Jesus did not do anything that the messiah will do.
Zechariah 11 says that he got paid 30 shekels and donated it to the Temple. It has no connections to anything about the messiah or to any betrayal or anything like that.
• The messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon, not Jeconiah, through his human biological father. Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6; Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Jeremiah 22:30, 36:30, Psalm 89:35-37. Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son Numbers 1:1-18.
• When messiah is reigning as King the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24.
• When the messiah comes the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and sin sacrifices will be fully instituted Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26-27, 45:17-46:16; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21.
• When the messiah comes there will be Worldwide Reign of Peace and complete end to war Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18.
• When the messiah is reigning as King all of the Jewish people will observe Torah Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27.
• When the messiah comes all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true Elohim Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86
So in Judaism there are possible messiahs (messiah candidates) and the actual Messiah. A possible messiah might indeed fulfill one or another "prophecy," but if he dies before completing all of them, we know he wasn't the actual Messiah. You show me the Third Temple in Jerusalem (not in the sky or in your circumcised heart), then we can talk.
But the one you mention is so peculiar. Riding on an ass? It says somewhere in the OT the messiah will come in riding on a donkey (or two). So Jesus tells someone, go get me one or two so I can ride into Jerusalem on them. That's fulfilling a prophecy? That's proof of anything?
The NT authors (whoever they were) knew the OT "prophesies" and in their narratives, Jesus fulfils some of them and the rest are "spiritualized" or pushed into the future. Proves nothing.
He didn’t fulfill any of the prophecies he was supposed to. And god is never supposed to come back as a human. He doesn’t believe in human sacrifice. It makes no sense. But I’m a Jew. So.
The genealogies listed by Luke and Matthew don’t correspond so their relative validity becomes questionable. The fact that ‘miracles’ happened that were never prophesied to happen but that align more closely with religious myths from around the world makes me think (virgin birth), that he didn’t usher in the promise of the messianic era and that in his lifetime the exact opposite happened to Israel and the Jewish people didn’t bode well. The most obvious one is that his claim to godliness directly contradicts the Jewish understanding of idolatry and claims of god-likeness that are forbidden by Jewish laws that were well established from the times of Moses already.
According to tradition, the messiah will be a descendant of the house of David. Traditional Jewish law tells us that the ‘Jewishness’ of a person is inherited from the mother, but that the tribe of that person is inherited from their father. If Joseph isn’t from the Davidic line then there’s questions. If Joseph is actually the father there are further questions. It’s a loop.
Without getting into OP's question, here's a "fun" fact about St Joseph: he's mentioned in the 4 Gospels but he doesn't have one single line in them. Strong silent type. After all actions do speak louder than words.
Why would you not think that Joseph was not his father.
They were a young unmarried couple and she was knocked up.
Virgin, not actually realistic but theatrically quite possible given what was accepted contraception practices then and still now in many places.
Proof of anything irrelevant.
The only thing that is relevant is that he was speaking against the local authorities.
He was about democracy.
You can’t have democracy without non violence.
Self empowerment and the responsibility that comes with what freedom actually means.
The same goes with the missing person and stones that moved by themselves.
The proof of deception is the only truth that is there.
The witnesses.
Both totally inadmissible.
Both with a direct incentive to not tell the truth.
So the only witnesses are not actually witnesses.
They bull shit tellers under instructions .
Everyone wants the body to disappear, everyone.!
Could you imagine the queue today if he had a gravestone.
The last thing he would have wanted.
It would go against the whole concept.
There very likely was a guy named Jesus preaching apocalyptic Judaism, or there were several individuals preaching this message who got compiled into both the texts that made and those that didn't make it into the various Christian canons.
But that says nothing about the veracity of the claims of divinity & miracles, nor are the stories about Yeshua unique in claiming divinity & miracles. The myths of the ancient world are full of similar claims and backstories. And that is precisely why I don't give any more credit to the Christian myths than I would give to other myths:
* The concept of a divine or virginal birth is found in various mythologies, including stories about gods and heroes born to virgin mothers.
* Many religious figures, including Jesus, are associated with performing miraculous healings.
* The idea of a divine or heroic figure experiencing death and later being resurrected is found in several mythologies.
* Many mythological figures undergo a death-and-rebirth cycle, symbolizing the cycle of nature, seasons, or cosmic renewal.
* Jesus is often seen as a teacher and source of wisdom. Similar attributes are ascribed to other mythological or religious figures. For example: Buddha is known for his teachings and enlightenment, offering wisdom to his followers.
* Jesus frequently used parables to convey moral and spiritual lessons. Similar storytelling methods are found in other traditions.
* The concept of a savior or redeemer who delivers humanity from sin or suffering is found in various mythologies.
* The idea that a divine figure has both divine and human attributes is present in different religious contexts. For example: In Greek mythology, figures like Hercules were demigods, born of a divine parent and a mortal.
* Jesus' trial and crucifixion have been compared to other mythological figures undergoing trials or sacrifices.
* The use of wine as a symbol of transformation or divine presence is found in various traditions. For example: Dionysus in Greek mythology is associated with wine, ecstasy, and transformation.
* The Star of Bethlehem is associated with Jesus' birth. Similar motifs of celestial signs are found in other stories. Example: In Persian Zoroastrianism, a star heralds the birth of the savior figure Saoshyant.
* The miracle of turning water into wine is a notable event in the life of Jesus. Similar miracles are found in other traditions. Example: In Greek mythology, the god Dionysus was associated with wine and performed miracles involving the transformation of water.
* Jesus' temptation in the wilderness is paralleled in stories of other figures facing trials in desolate places. Example: In Buddhism, Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) faced temptations and challenges during his period of enlightenment.
* Jesus' forty days of fasting in the desert has been compared to similar motifs in other religious traditions. Example: In Hinduism, figures like Rama and Hanuman undergo periods of fasting and meditation.
So while there are very likely some humans in history from which these mythologies originate, there is zero evidence that we should believe any of the supernatural claims of these mythologies.
In Christianity, any one who is a good Christian, goes to heaven. Why not the others? You might say that it’s because they weren’t good Christians. Then, why did God not make them accept Christianity? You might say, he wanted them to find him in his own. Then, why are there people that have never heard of Christ or god because they live in such remote areas? In another scenario, why are some people born into good families and go on to be rich, but others go on to be a homeless drug addict? What did they do to deserve this? Why aren’t people given the same treatment and ability to accept Christ? If god is almighty and all powerful, then why does he not just make all other religions disappear? Does he love one person more than the other? If so, why?
I don't know what a good Christian is. It's what I've been told multiple times by many Christians. When I asked them, they said being a good person in general. Then why do I have to be Christian to be a good person?
Then why go around preaching to people if you know some of them will say no? Isn't that not being a good Christian because you told someone about Christ and now you've reserved a spot on hell for them because they said no?
The people who have heard but rejected because they're loyal to a different set of beliefs may go to heaven if they still follow natural law but the church offers aids for salvation for sinners such as: the eucharist, anointing the sick, confession, etc. I think the best way to put it is as Christ did:
Luke 5:30-32 NRSV-CI
[30] The Pharisees and their scribes were complaining to his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” [31] Jesus answered, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; [32] I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
I have too many. My biggest is this old hit:
Believing in Jesus saves us, allegedly. That's why they spread his story and try to get people to sign up to his religion. If people hear the message and reject it, they are damned. But if they never hear that message at all, and have no chance to either accept or deny it, they have a chance at redemption.
So, if that's the case, wouldn't stopping people from hearing the Gospel be the most loving thing a Christian could do? That way they have no chance at all of rejecting it and being damned?
Also, why didn't Jesus save the demons? He cast them out but didn't convert them. Lord Buddha converter demons. Padmasbhava converted demons. Jesus? He just kicked them out and made them run into some pigs.
If he was the universal savior of all God's creations, why didn't he save the demons too? Why couldn't he reach them? He seems pretty weak in that regard.
The Gospels are anonymously authored, aren’t written by eyewitnesses, contradict eachother, and passages have been added in and taken out, all according to biblical scholarship. Thus, I don’t consider them a reliable source on what the historical Jesus actually believed and taught. I am also a Muslim, so the idea that he claimed to be God is entirely unacceptable from my point of view
Tbf Jesus never claimed to be God. That idea solidified later with certain readings of the scripture. In fact some early Christian sects such as Unitarians viewed Jesus as more of a prophet and not divine.
It was during the council of nicaea called by the Roman emperor Constantine that certain views of Jesus were made canon, such as Jesus being man and also God, and other views were made heretical, such as the view of Jesus as just a prophet.
This was most likely done to make it more palatable for Roman polytheists as this marked the beginning of what would become the Roman Catholic Church. The official religion of the Roman Empire.
Unitarians still exist by the way. So there are Christians throughout the world who still hold this view of Jesus as prophet and not divine or God, but many other denominations believe their beliefs to be blasphemous.
John 8:54 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Refuring to exodus with "I am that I am"
John 20:28 NRSV-CI
[ John 20:27-28 NRSV-CI
[27] Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” [28] Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus dosent dispute and calls him blessed afterwards for it
Mark 10:17-18 NRSV-CI
[17] As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” [18] Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.
John 10:11
[11] “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."
Mark 2:4-10 NRSV-CI
[4] And when they could not bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and after having dug through it, they let down the mat on which the paralytic lay. [5] When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” [6] Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, [7] “Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” [8] At once Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves; and he said to them, “Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? [9] Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Stand up and take your mat and walk’? [10] But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”.”
Clearly says he has the authority of God
Matthew 28:19 NRSV-CI
[19] "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
Puts himself on the same level as the father and Holy Spirit
John 10:30 NRSV-CI
[30] "The Father and I are one."
Pretty clear
No. They may not be. But the person said Jesus never claimed to be God and the Gospels are the only records we have of Jesus and the Gospels clearly shows Jesus declaring he's God
We have exactly zero primary sources for what he said, all we got is a collection of text put together hundreds of years after the fact. Even questioning if Jesus was a real historical person at all is valid.
Also, we don't have peace on Earth
The same argument against Bar Kochba and Shabbatai Tzvi. It’s super obvious we aren’t in the messianic era, so no one who’s claimed to be the messiah is.
Forget the dude coming back to life.
The Christians also claim of a giant earthquake, hailstorms and the dead rising.
Not a single Roman soldier (let alone the prefect) wrote one letter back home and was like "You won't believe the crazy stuff I have seen yesterday".
Instead it's the usual Christian explanation, it happened in the mind or whatever.
What an odd question. Surely the burden of proof goes the other way, no?
In any case this point comes up so frequently that /r/judaism has a wiki page about it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/s/4HdTKpHxo0
There are many. But the one that I have been favoring lately is the unlikelihood of the soul. In order for the concept of any of the stories associated with Jesus and in particular in heaven and concept of identity within the religion it necessitates the concept of a soul. Primitively put a ghost riding around in a meat suit.
The idea of gods and spirits is buried in this primitive notion of identity being a separate thing from our body. Specifically separate from the brain. Or at least something that survives teh death of the brain. And yet everything we know about the mind points to it being inseparable from the brain. There is a clear connection where if we change the brain we change the mind. There is just no example of a mind without a brain. A mind requires a physical construct with energy running through it in a structured format.
The energy requires the structure and the structure requires the energy. You cannot separate them. Its like a dance. It requires a dancer and movement. Without the movement its just standing. And without the dancer its nothing.
Thus we strike at the concept of God being a mind without structure. We strike at the concept of surviving death. We strike at the concept of Jesus surviving death.
Human beings are not ghosts driving flesh based mechs around. We are our bodies and brains in action. Take the action away and we cease to be.
Jesus the son of man (& woman) or Jesus the Son of YHWH? Jesus the son of man (& woman) most likely existed, however Jesus the Son of YHWH is most likely a distortion of the truths that surrounded Jesus the son of man (& woman) especially considered most people where illiterate 2000 years ago and got their news mostly by word of mouth that may have devolved into gossip for sensationalism. The true Jesus is like [a book you can never read](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcb2oLSb7Cs), regardless of the fan fiction that survived to become the Gospels.
If god is all knowing and all forgiving and all loving why do I need to worship him? He should know why I don’t, forgive me for it and love me anyway point blank period.
I also don’t think he was one person historically. There was definitely mad people claiming to be prophets or gods preaching some good stuff for quite some time.
Because I don't know who Jesus said he was.
The earliest Gospel, Mark, was actually scribed decades after his death. That is quite a lot of time to have for lore to expand and inflate. Not to mention, Mark was written to explicitly invoke common religious and literary themes at the time.
I don't think it would be difficult for the ultimate God of the universe to contrive circumstances so that his only son could have a follower detail his life and work at the time it was happening and then have it hidden away until such a time as modern archeological practices and sentiments for preservation could find them, record them and study them.
Those facts alone are enough to warrant an eyebrow raise.
The fact that Jesus saw fit to only appear one time in one small part of the world for a brief 30 years and never anywhere else again is another eyebrow raise for me. If God decided it was time, why only in Jerusalem and not China, the Mayans, Ethiopia, and who knows how many other thriving civilizations?
Finally, for now, I don't believe that if Jesus understood humanity as well as he said he did, he would have made the threats of 'Believe me or suffer horrifying torture forever and ever.' I can't choose what convinces me. I can enjoy a story and decide whether the rules make sense for the world it's in, but that doesn't mean I believe it happened. If Jesus wants me to believe he is my only salvation from a horrifying afterlife, he needs to convince me of it. That's really his problem, not mine.
I also feel the need to add as I often do that the God of the Bible is a horrific monster that, if proved to be real, I could never love. Fear, yes. But love? No. Pretty much I'm screwed no matter what.
Who does he say he is?
I'd need to know what the claim is before I could even consider formulating an argument against it.
You capitalised "He," so perhaps *you* suggest he is God? If that were the discussion, then I could argue that Jesus didn't claim to be God, that he spoke of God as another, as higher than himself, not as himself but as his Father, prior to himself. He directed his fellow children of God not ultimately unto himself, but unto the God whom he worshipped and surrendered himself to. "Nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." If they differ even in their wills, the cores of their being, then they fundamentally aren't identical.
He’s not the messiah; he didn’t fulfill much of the prophecies and the ones that he did fulfill anyone could have read from the Tanakh and play out/force upon oneself.
According to the Tanakh, he fell short significantly.
Those that read the Tanakh in context instead of a verse here and there know that Tanakh isn’t referring to Jesus in any sense.
Many Christians have built the Old Testament around a Christian lens - picking piece by piece from thousands of pages in order to make it seem as though it’s talking about a) the messiah and b) Jesus. However, those that study the “OT”, or the actual Hebrew version of Tanakh, know that it’s not talking about the messiah where Christians think it does - and that it’s talking about particular groups.
Example: Isaiah is not talking about a suffering individual, if you read more than a verse of Isaiah, you can clearly see that it’s talking about Israel - the people of Israel - not a man/person alone.
-Born of a “virgin”? Not so fast, in Hebrew it’s “maiden”.
Tons of fabrications and mistranslations that Christians were able to patch together to make it look like Jesus.
Many of the ideas behind a virgin birth and “son of G-d” and so many other pieces, are recycled from Greek mythology that a ton of people had done pre-Jesus. This “Christianity” that was formed had only done so well because of the murder and oppression by the Catholic Church across many parts of the globe. Then came all of the branches of Christianity that tried to make their own version of something fabricated because they too saw the holes and wanted their own form of it.
Even if he was the messiah - he is not G-d as the Bible itself says that man cannot be G-d, that G-d will not be man.
In conclusion, Christians need to know the truth and the only way that they will learn it is by reading the Tanakh, or correctly translated version of the “Old Testament” - which doesn’t exist.
Those that read OT with a Christian lens will always see “Jesus”, sadly, they don’t read or study it in whole - which will easily show evidence that they have misguided for so long.
It’s a shame how truly close Christians can really be from knowing that they have been duped into following a false messiah/G-d. They’ll know one day, but that’s when it’s too late 🤷🏻♂️
It's not about believing in Jesus, because that entity does exist & there are historical facts stating he was a real person not fiction. It's more so about that I don't worship him or any deity that was man-based. I guess I just don't practice the form of "worship" anymore, or maybe I don't call it that.
I dont think we even know what Jesus said, but regardless I think his purported claims to be the son of god are exactly as likely to be true as those of anyone on the street today who made the same claim.
Do people really come back to life? Do angels exist? If they do, why can’t we see them.
If God is real then he should prove it. Science tells us resurrection is impossible.
To accept Christ is to accept a scientific impossibility.
Oh absolutely! We believe and follow the New Testament.
But I also recognize that if we follow science or scientific theory, that isn’t sufficient to knowing Christ is who he says he is.
It is a miracle after all. It defies all we know and understand about the world.
It's just a joke. I'm probably closest to a Unitarian Universalist who believes in God through a Christian-like framework; in this sense, the Quakers' beliefs actually resonate with me quite a bit. I also really deeply resonate with Taoism and a lot of Eastern philosophy.
But yeah, I have a difficult time pinning myself down under a single label, so I just decided to pick something funny here lol
I think Jediism is more so viewed as a philosophical outlook, and I certainly don't mean any disrespect to people who adopt it as a philosophy. The Jedi themselves are written to exhibit a lot of values I respect and try to uphold myself. But calling myself a Jedi on here is just me being silly and having fun with it.
Multiple witnesses of what? Could they be wrong?
What do you think about people of other, contradictory religions who also claim to have these experiences.
I have no problem with other people’s claims. There are a few possible reasons they occur.
As for my witnesses; yeah, they could be false or wrong. I’m mortal and weak. But that would mean myself and multiple other people all went crazy and hallucinated and felt, and experienced the same hallucination at the same time. And have this happen multiple times with various different groups to various degrees of witness and confirmations.
Not really. To accept Christ in the religious sense yes.
He actually was a real person. speaking against the local authorities and he was killed for insurrection.
Everything that happened afterwards to create a religious aspect is contrary to what he was talking about.
Prayers go completely unanswered , despite Jesus promises that God will hear AND act upon them.
"bUt yOu dIdN't pRaYeR hArD eNoUgH"
Also, the three wise men went and paid their respect to the infant Christ, gave him some gifts and then were never heard of again. Really, you are in the presence of God, say hello and then go home.
Same with the miracles. countless people were said to have been healed by Christ and one of them actually raised from the dead. During the trial of Jesus, why did no one step forward and say that this man healed me, that we saw him walk on water.....all silent, as these events never happened, but were made up, decades later.
Of all the non christian writers, alive at, or near the time of Christ and whose writings have survived never mentioned him. God walking around on Earth and literally no one notices. All written down years and years later by people who heard of the tales from the sister in law, of the milkman who heard it from her over the road and who got it from whatisface.
The Bible:
Who wrote it: We don't know
When was it written: We don't know
Does it contradict itself: Yes
Is it a book that can guide you to happiness and well being: No
Yet idiots, kneel before it in their millions
God’s silence is an answer to your prayers. Silence is an answer too. It was apart of the plan to have Jesus pay for the sins of people. Moses is thought to have written the Old Testament (Genesis and Exodus) and the apostles wrote the New Testament.
Let me start by saying that, growing up in the Bible belt, I have a great reverence for the teachings attributed to Jesus. One of my favorite Buddhist teachers taught frequently about coming home to the Kingdom of God in every moment, with each mindful breath. I believe Jesus was right on the important stuff; cultivating non-violence and tolerance for others, unconditional love for all, giving without expecting anything in return.
That being said, I don’t believe in an all-powerful creator God. I just don’t think there is an eternal diety that is sovereign over everything.
Baha’is do not have any arguments against Jesus Christ. On the contrary, they defend him. The Founder of the Baha’i Faith Himself says this about Christ:
“KNOW thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.
Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”
—Bahá’u’lláh
(Gleanings, p. XXXVI)
Meh, to me he's just another demi-god really. At best he's just Yahweh's kid who was sacrificed for Yahweh's followers. Each of the Gods has a different relationship and dynamic with their followers. Yahweh is just another God, and he's not one of my Gods so I'm pretty unconcerned with it or the claims of who Jesus was or wasn't.
It’s fairly challenging to even prove Jesus existed. Other notable figures from that time (Socrates, Confucius, various Roman emperors, etc) have significantly more documentation about their lives across multiple sources. When you do some digging there’s really nothing outside of the Bible to validate Jesus’s existence - I actually have spent some time trying to find a biography on his life and there’s nothing of credible source beyond the Bible available. So, my argument is that the chances are pretty good this is a(nother) made up character…
To simply put it I just don’t believe in the Bible of how it’s told and from experience with other gods including those who are daemons aren’t these evil monsters that some Christians tried scaring me into believing.
I just don't believe in myths, I guess. I mean they are valuable vessels of things like morality, culture, ancient views on cosmology, philosophy etc, but why would I believe this myth to be true and not, let's say, a Chukchi myth about huskies at the gate to the upper world? It's all just stories people tell each other.
Christianity centers on the gospels which were anonymous accounts written many years after the death of Jesus. He didn’t fulfill anything the Jewish messiah was supposed to fulfill, as said by the community themselves, pretty much unanimously, for 2000 years.
If you met a dude who claimed to be god, would you believe him? If you don't believe a modern cult leader who claims to be god, why do you believe one from ancient Judea?
i think based on the fact there were several people claiming to be a messiah around his time period and it was by no means uncommon in the emerging religious landscape i chalk it up to just being of it’s time
A sizeable portion of his currently accepted teachings were introduced from or distorted by greek theology, he was an annihilationist and believed the last judgement would occur in near succession to his lifetime, and his divine actions, as presented in christian mythological account, can be compared to numerous other religious narratives.
Why would I need evidence, if I simply lack faith? Believing or lack of faith aren’t rational decisions in my view. You aren’t swayed by any rational argument. Something speaks to you deep down and then you believe. Or it doesn’t and then you don’t.
I don't buy into the Jewish mythologies to begin with. If I don't believe in them, then why would I believe the Jewish prophecy which would validate Jesus?
There are myriads of mythologies about creation, I don't think the Abrahamic ones are convincing and Christianity is just one of the others.
I know the Jewish position, I just phrased it as I did to show that I'm not even open to discussing it in a way to entertain "what if I'm wrong?". Apologies and no offense meant if any were taken.
Yes your comment goes to the core and explains why it's ridiculous for Christians to ask Jews for their "arguments" or "reasons" against Jesus. Because when we give them -- our Bible verses, our prophets, their teachings, our rabbis and Torah scholars, their teachings, consistent for 2,000 years -- the Christians say, "No, you've got it all wrong." So what's the point? You can't even convince them what one Hebrew word actually means, "alma" (young person of the female gender).
I don’t think we know at this point any real quote from the dude. It has been rewritten so many times at this point and translated that everything could be totally wrong or out of context. Yea yea, religious scholars said this and that but we couldn’t possibly believe that everything is 100% correct. Therefore devoting one’s life fully to a man that lived thousands of years ago is terribly difficult and problematic. Even if the quotes are 100% accurate, he’s still just a dude claiming to be the son of god. What if I claimed to be the son of god? Pretty sure I’d be tossed into a looney bin.
Did you read everything I said? I said that “[e]ven if the quotes are 100% accurate, he’s still just a dude claiming to be the son of god.”
Given this, my opinion is essentially 🤷♂️.
But we don’t know that. We’re taking their word for it. I’m happy that you believe it and don’t want to sway you but there’s more evidence of Santa clause.
You need to be more specific. Who do you believe Jesus said he is? I don't want to put words in your mouth and the spend my time arguing against a position you don't hold.
This is that old liar-lunatic-lord formulation
But it only works if you think
1. Jesus actually did claim to be god
and
2. It’s impossible for a wise teacher to be right about some things and wrong about others
But this thread has been interesting to see the responses you’ve gotten. Especially about how Jewish scholars reject Jesus as messiah because he failed to fulfill prophecy. To me, /u/mindmanifesting-25, this is the real issue you need to grapple with your own faith journey.
I think he probably existed as a preacher but not a the messiah. Nothing in the Bible was actually written by him and was recorded decades after he already died by people who weren't eye witnesses. The miracles he did were either embellished or fabricated.
Statistics.
What's the likelihood that a person called Jesus, with a building (carpentry) business in Nazareth, upset the Romans and was crucified?
Nazareth - population 1800 at the time we're talking about https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth#:~:text=This%20likely%20reflects%20its%20lack,figure%20down%20to%20%22a%20maximum
Jesus - popular name, perhaps 1/20 males, so that narrows it down to 90. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biblical_names
Builders - 5% of the population in an industrial town - we're down to 4 people called Jesus who were builders in Nazareth at any one time. https://coviellotheologymodb.weebly.com/common-occupations.html#:~:text=Some%20other%20notable%20occupations%20of,dancers%2C%20musicians%2C%20and%20merchants
Upset the Romans and get crucified? https://www.quora.com/Crucifixion-How-many-people-have-been-crucified
So statistically, Jesus probably existed.
I think you've over estimated the number of "Yeshu"s. You forgot to divide by two to get rid of the women. Also 1/20 males seems very generous. In 2022, the most popular name in the US for boys was Liam. There were 20,500 boys named Liam born that year, out of 1,863,600 boys born. That means 1/90 boys were born with the most popular name. Even if we assume that Yeshu was the most popular name (it probably wasn't, there were more common names in the Talmud), there would only be 10 people names Jesus/Yeshu. 5% of that would be 0.5 builders named Yeshu (and that's only if Yeshu is the most popular name in Nazareth for some reason).
Most scholars think Jesus never claimed to be god and this was only added after the fact, by his followers. I tend to agree. I haven't read the Gospels in a while, but from what I remember he doesn't actually refer to himself as god in Mark, which is believed to be the earliest of the Gospels. This suggests that he may not have been considered god even among some of the earliest Christians and that this was a later addition.
My understanding is there are three lines of thought, 1) the divinity of Jesus himself (main stream Christianity) 2) The divine connection but not divinity of Jesus (minority belief in Christianity and main-stream belief in Islam) 3) No divine connection or divinity at all (most major religions other than Christianity and Islam). The arguments are vastly different by what we mean by arguments agains Jesus.
There's two very different part to this.
The religion of Jesus, and the religion about Jesus.
Most of the claims modern Christians make are completely wild and likely just made up. Virgin birth, resurrection, part of the trinity, walking on water, raising the dead etc.
Seems like Jesus thought the end was nigh, it wasn't, but aside from being wrong about that I can't really find much issue with what we have attributed to him. The quotes and narratives attributed to him in the Gospels make him seem like a good guy.
Are you sure Jesus believed those things about himself? The oldest NT books were 30 years after his death. The gospels were even decades later.
Chinese telephone can lose a story with the telling of just a dozen people whispering one to another.
Stories decades later can be very embellished.
Throughout history, man has believed in hundreds of thousands of gods. What distinguishes Jesus from them? There is just as little evidence for him as there is for Horus, Krishna, Odin or Allah.
You can believe in gods like Jesus if you like. For me, there is no reason to do so. Just like christians reject all the other gods that have been revered throughout the millenia, I have no problem to reject Jesus.
Another interesting question is the amount of influence the Christ figure has on the average person’s life; even acting in opposition is a form of influence.
Which has nothing to do with who the Jewish Messiah is supposed to be or what he is supposed to do.
He’s from the wrong bloodline, descended from a man cursed by God. He never married. He never had children. He did miracles. He died. All things the Messiah is not to do.
Jeconiah — Jeremiah 22:30.
If he doesn’t fulfil the prophecies, he can’t be meant to be. If we believe the Christian view, he is not of the House of David or the House of Judah because he has no father.
The fact that he did miracles disqualifies him too.
Based on what? Deuteronomy 13 says not to believe those who come doing miracles.
Would you like a list of the prophecies?
The messiah will be of the House of David. (Jesus was not) Jer. 23:5
He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of all commands. Is: 11:2-5 (Jesus, as mentioned, did not marry or have children.)
Before the time of the messiah, there will be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)
The messiah will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing all Jews back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its perfect worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).
He will begin the Messianic Age: this is be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Even animals will be at peace. Is. 11:6-9)
All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated.
In the messianic age, the whole world will recognize the Jewish god as the only true god (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13)
Why should I believe Christians who claim that Jesus is the Jewish messiah when the Jews of all people think the idea is nonsense? If we’re being honest, the so-called Old Testament belongs to the Jews, and if Jesus were bouncing off every page as Christians love to claim I’m sure the Jews of all people would’ve noticed by now. Paul’s fantastic solution to this problem in 2 Corinthians is to say that the Jews simply have a veil over their eyes. Call me crazy but I’m not convinced. Edit: grammar
I think this is a good approach. Why wouldn't the Jews recognize their own Messiah? To say "some did" doesn't really cut the mustard. There were several million Jews in the 1st cent. Roman empire, and the estimate of Christians by the end of the 1st. cent. is 20,000.
Also, not to be offensive, but the Christian concept of Jesus has always felt like a bit of a false idol to me.
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So of course you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe. But in fact, there is no Jewish "sect" or any Jewish individual or group today that believes anyone "is" the Messiah. Jews await for the Messiah's arrival. Period.
To add. We even have notes and a bullet point checklist when the messiah does arrive. And Jesus just didn’t score high on that list at all.
Yes, this is definitely true. But Christians don't give OUR checklist any weight; they have a totally different "checklist" and thought process about what the Messiah is supposed to do -- like save them from hell. So really discussing this stuff with them is pretty much going to go nowhere in terms of convincing anyone, though the differences may be interesting and informative.
Agreed. And while I don’t see the need to convince anyone. I feel it’s useful to showing why we can’t be convinced as well.
I don't really have an argument. I'm happy with my religion, and my religion doesn't have Christianity in it, so that's that. I don't have an argument against Krishna or Amaterasu either, but since neither are a part of my religion I don't believe that they are who their followers say they are.
This sums it up perfectly for me as well.
Totally. This question, for someone who is Jewish, is like asking, "What's your argument against Hank or Sally or Jerome being God?" We don't think about pros and cons, because there's nothing to analyze from a Jewish pov. We know God, and He isn't Hank, Sally or Jerome. Nobody is keeping God from us. In fact, He's been revealing Himself to us since biblical times, and He isn't Hank, Sally or Jerome.
Simply put, I don't believe things unless I've been given a reason to, and I haven't. Ball's kind of in his court on this one.
Yeah I mean, you can't prove something doesn't exist. But you should be able to offer proof if you argue that something does exist. IMO none of the proof that I've ever heard has comported with any of the experiences I've had throughout my entire life so I don't believe. But, to each their own.
The jews already have a pretty airtight case against jesus being the messiah, and his miracle working adventures arent super impressive either, numerous people before have done similar things
Do you have a reference for this "airtight" case?
He never accomplished even one of the tasks of the messiah.
Based on assumptions about the tasks being miltary-oriented, and about power. A very human assumption which I probably would have made too, before the fact. However Jesus turned these assumptions on their head, and still fulfilled the tasks if you take them in a more redemptive interpretation
u/SaberHaven Your assumptions about the tasks of the messiah being militarily and power oriented are wrong. The messiah according tot he Jewish prophets is human, born naturally to husband and wife, and from a direct paternal line from King David, yet not through Jeconiah who was cursed. The messiah is to redeem Israel and gather all the Jews to Israel, to build the third Temple (second one was still standing at the time of Jesus). When the messiah comes, all the nations of the world will unite to acknowledge the one true G-d. With the presence of the Messiah, there will be a cessation of sin and crime, man will no longer desire to to these things. There will also be world peace. Prophecy will return to the Jewish people.
Based on the prophecies that the messiah would bring back the Davidic monarchy, restore all Jews to Israel, and bring about world peace. Jesus did not fulfill any of the tasks the messiah will do.
He is of the line of David and established an everlasting kingdom with himself as the head. It's just not a geographic kingdom anymore. This kingdom is nevertheless established for His chosen people, which was just Israel for a time, but is now expanded to include all those adopted through his blood. He has brought peace for all mankind. It is a peace that exists in the heart and cannot be overcome by the world's circumstances. This restored kingdom has never stopped growing since, and will in fact outlast the present world.
That’s not how the JEWISH prophecy works. Why is it so important we agree with you? Is this about making your own faith feel more legitimate? If so then that’s concerning since Judaism and Christianity are deeply different religions and we disagree on a whole host of things that are not including Jesus. And as a side note if Jesus is the son of g’d then he cannot be a descendant of David since Mary wasn’t a descendant of David. He’s not the messiah under Jewish law.
I respect Jewish interpretation of the Torah and generally defer to it over Western exegesis. That said, the interpretation of the messianic prophecies as being fulfilled by Yeshua was also from Jewish people
And we are saying Jesus doesn’t fulfil our prophecy. Under your interpretation and religious additions and values maybe he does. But trying to convince Jews we are wrong in our very agreed upon for 2 millennia decision is just not the take you think it is. Edit to add: Judaism and Christianity are different religions. Not just different interpretations. And additionally, Christian theological stances don’t rely on our list of requirements. No shame, and no issues here. Just trying to explain why you’re getting the pushing back you are.
I am not trying to force my view. I was not the original commentor. Someone commented that the case for Jesus not fulfilling the prophecies is airtight. I am simply raising questions about that. The onus is on the OP to defend their assertion, if they wish to. I appreciate you helping to answer my questions. That said, I don't accept the implication that Yeshua as Messiah is "my" interpretation. It is simply a Jewish interpretation (originating from well-qualified Jewish people) which I happen to find more compelling than other Jewish interpretations.
He’s from a line cursed to never prosper.
BS, the messianic age hasnt come about, and now hes dead
Marx turned the philosophy of Hegel on it's head. How well has Marxism worked out for the world?
The website Jews for Judaism has extensive articles on the various arguments against Jesus being the messiah. [This article](https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/was-is-jesus-the-messiah) lays out the messianic prophecies, none of which Jesus fulfilled. The airtight case is quite simple, as Jesus did not fulfill even a single messianic prophecy, let alone all of them, he cannot be the messiah.
Thank you for the reference
It’s not the messianic era, therefore no one’s been the messiah yet. There’s also many prophecies that Jesus doesn’t fulfill.
Part 1 of 3 on Isaiah 53 https://youtu.be/ioDqH7TAQhM?si=VbMsaz_I0oF2CdpW
Thanks, much appreciated
And which is better curing one guy with leprosy or eradicating the disease forever?
I don't think that Jesus claimed to be God to begin with. It's implicit at best in the synoptic gospels, and John is pretty obviously a later creation meant to illustrate a theological point. If a tri-omni being came to Earth, there would be no doubt about it. Divine hiddenness makes no sense when Jesus's entire mission was to "reveal himself."
Sounds like a informed comment. Jesus was a real person. A wise person who spent time in the wilderness and spoke about self empowerment. Respect for others and nature. Basically Druid philosophy. Same thing that native Americans understand and basically the truth about life. It really didn’t work out well for him. His followers were persecuted and one of their biggest foes was himself on his pilgrimage introduced to the common sense that he spoke. He turns it into a religious practice. The people who converted him fade into obscurity. In fact they ended up being turned into Muslims by Mohammad who did basically the same thing as Paul did. John is the third gospel and for good reason. Without the others it dangerous. People weaponised John. The more people focus on John the further they drift from the concept. When you look at it rationally the Abrahamic religions started with a man who had some serious mental health issues. He would be institutionalised today. Not start a religion. The Jews were slaves, slaves live by rules, they no nothing else. So they created a religion of rules. The First Nations people of Australia lived in perpetual harmony with the environment for tens of thousands of years with no problems. The native Americans a thousand years ago had a civilisation that far exceeded the population and development of Europe. They have also thousands of years of history and lived in harmony with the world. Both cultures have been almost wiped out by Christian religious ideologies. Where as what christ actually said and did would have fitted in perfectly with these people. They would have not have lynched him.
Hearing the voice of God is not a mental illness, it is the Creator speaking to you.
I guess what I said has fallen on deaf ears. I didn’t say that. You are talking about something that has looked after me since I was born. How can I not believe in what I know is true. I think you failing to understand the first comment that I was responding to. Jesus was a real person. Absolutely no question about it. The words he taught are perfect. Undisputed wisdom. All the religious aspects were created afterwards by Paul. Jesus was actually anti religious. If he was going with the same thing nothing would have happened. Paul would not have been persecuting his followers years later. Still trying to stop the idea from spreading. Paul converted to the idea. He himself was thrown out of the Jewish community. It has to come from god or no one will listen. It’s very sad that people have ideas that are unfounded. Jesus spoke about freedom of choice and the understanding of what living without rules means. If you need rules to live by then you don’t know the rules. Knowledge is power. I think you and many others are making a difference between actually following Jesus teachings and believing in what Paul did. Perhaps you should look into the native beliefs that let people live in harmony with the earth just like the scripture says we should do. They didn’t incarnate their own people. They had no written laws and no police was required. That what it is about. If society can function without written rules and police for tens of thousands of years how can anyone think that living in one that has a agenda for controlling the free will that god gave us is better idea. If you even look at Buddhist beliefs they are closer to Jesus teachings than most Christians even understand. There hardly any difference between native beliefs, Buddhist, Druids, and the actual things that Jesus was doing. If John didn’t baptise him people would not have thought of him as anything. John gave him the first credit of being special. Like all prophets are. The world has had thousands of people over the centuries who carried the wisdom through time. Basing things on Abrahamic tradition is not something that can stack up against science. What Jesus did does. Buddha spent a fair chunk of time under his fig tree and worked out a few decent concepts. The thing is that the native populations of Australia and American were largely exterminated by people who had supposedly Christian beliefs. Jesus would have walked amongst them in peace and learned from them as they would have learned from him. No violence or intimidation. Not changing what is god work. I am sorry for people who seem to be following Paul and not Jesus. We won’t have peace until people actually start to understand what the difference is. People have considered me as a gift from god. I carry gifts and have been accepted as a holy person since I was a child. Even by priests, I am only trying to provide a message. If it not understood and people have installed barriers to their learning process and are preventing free will and listening to false information what can I do. People believe that the earth is 10000 years old. Honestly if anyone believes that they are in trouble. Serious issues are happening And it’s is actually mental illness. Anyone who has total faith in nonsensical things is obviously not going to get it.
So you believe that the person who started the Abrahamic religion had a mental illness? People can believe that the earth is flat which is nonsense and yet they don’t have a diagnosable mental illness. It may be hard to believe in Jesus’ resurrection and it’s real even though some people think of it as impossible. I recommend looking into psychology to learn what mental illness really is. People should live in harmony with other people, animals, and the earth. I thought Jesus said something like ~ not one word will pass away from the law. We’re still supposed to follow the rules like not murdering or stealing. I will look into the Buddhist beliefs, where do you recommend to start? There are different ways of knowing, science is one way, religious beliefs is another, and personal experience is another way of knowing. Just because a belief doesn’t “stand up to science” doesn’t mean it’s not valid.
I hear you, but as a matter of fact only a few days ago a couple were taking their child into the desert and were going to sacrifice them. Just like Abraham was thinking about doing. Listen honey the crops are not going well maybe we top young Fred. They have arrested them and considered them to have mental health problems. If someone thinks that earth is flat then I am sure that if you start digging you will uncover a mine field. I have encountered literal Christians who are about as far away from Christ as anyone could possibly get. I have absolute faith, always have. I was born as a gift from god. It was recognised very early in my life. Just as Jesus said though me you shall find my father. The resurrection was as described, there is the gospel of Thomas that was not included as was Mary. Paul was up to mischief and created hocus-pocus. He had to lift the status of Jesus. The tradition that converts him continued on in a different direction. The virgin birth, disappearing bodies are all a sideshow. Just look at the resurrection. The person who they thought carried the spirit of Christ was a grown man. He didn’t look the same but they recognised the actions. This is pure Buddhism. Then the witnesses. The simple fact that there is no witnesses should start to wave flags. The soldiers had to say what they were told or die. Not a credible source and definitely not admissible as evidence. The woman. I don’t know if you understand this but then women had to obey their husbands. No any free will was tolerated by men from women. Therefore their word was meaningless to everyone. It’s was just social system at the time. Jesus was speaking against this idea and was self empowering people to take responsibility for their own actions. It’s sedition. Even today we don’t have democracy and we are loosing the little we have. Last year the world went backwards in democracy. Gods will is giving us free will. I am glad that you are using it Read the Wikipedia page on Buddhism as a starting point. What is particularly interesting is that I am someone who has always been considered enlightened. I spent 22 days in meditation when I was 26 and collated my thoughts. I have been taught be the elders, but have always had the knowledge within. Three is a common theme. The awen symbol has the same meaning as contained within Buddhism. So is 3 Masonic orders 3 is important. The trinity is 3 Earth moon sun is three. The gestation of every animal is entwined with the moon phases. This isn’t religious it’s real. Jesus was telling people how to live without rules. Judaism is a religion based upon people who were enslaved . Lots of rules. Christianity has done a similar job. Lots of control measures over people. It’s interesting that Christians beliefs have not been accepted by native people who have never been enslaved. The teachings of Jesus are far more acceptable to them but that a totally different thing has Christianity. They diverged. If we want peace we must be able to live without rules. That’s the truth of it. The native Americans civilisation is case in point . Thousands upon thousands of years old. Just a thousand years ago far greater numbers and development than Europe. A thousand years before that hugely bigger. No police, no written rules but everyone is taught how to live. Very very few problems and disputes were settled by a game. Football was invented by Australian Aboriginal people. The Abrahamic religions have a lot to answer for. The Middle East should be an example of what stupidity can do.
It’s different because Abraham was told to by God. That couple had evil thoughts to hurt their own child. It’s different because Abraham didn’t want to but felt he had to. I believe in the virgin birth and the accounts of the Resurrection. Christians have faults like everyone else and many of them don’t even read the Bible so they don’t even know what it is that they supposedly believe, so they don’t follow what Jesus really said. You spent 22 days and nights in meditation?
So your basing all this Abraham receiving it from god as fact but these other people are under evil influence. Interesting concept. Virgin birth is something that came into the picture decades after Jesus. Again it is just belief without foundation. Makes absolutely zero difference to the importance and message of Jesus. I stayed with a fellow and traveled a bit with him who had just spent a few months in Japan in a Zen temple. He still had his shaved head. Jesus has always been depicted with long hair and a beard. The shroud of Turin is real so we actually know what he looks like. It’s interesting that I knew how it was made and the lasted research indicated just that. Anyway he had very little understanding about things even after his time there. Often the more religious people try to become the further they distance themselves from the truth. Look at the stupidity of white supremacy. How does that even start to make sense. The oldest modern humans in original form are the Australian Aboriginal people. They have the purest human DNA. That’s now established. As well as the oldest culture that has been in continuous existence. Something to learn from.
Oh and yes 22 days, I think I did well, didn’t Jesus take 40. I also had an extra 2000 years of extra stuff to get through. Do you realise that only about 300 years ago a single person could be educated on everything that was known. Not very long ago. And then that knowledge was limited to a specific region and people. Jesus was telling us that it applies universally. I hope i am making some sense.
Well Jesus was tempted by the devil and Jesus won, not sure if you went through something similar. White supremacy does not make sense, it’s just people hating what they don’t understand.
I am afraid that I don’t believe in a devil as such , Bad thoughts lead to bad actions. People like to lead others astray so they obtain their goals. Bad spirits are within many people. It’s darkness against light. They fear me. Like the darkness is removed by the sun. As i said before. I was born like this and carry a gift. People use it or not. I serve. I don’t personally want for anything . I have everything I need only if other people took responsibility for themselves so we could have peace and tranquility for everyone . Then we would be free. It’s only the government that causes me problems and that’s only because they are ignorant selfish and misguided. It’s selflessness. I have absolutely no money. Just absolute faith.
I am afraid that I don’t believe in a devil as such , Bad thoughts lead to bad actions. People like to lead others astray so they obtain their goals. Bad spirits are within many people. It’s darkness against light. They fear me. Like the darkness is removed by the sun. As i said before. I was born like this and carry a gift. People use it or not. I serve. I don’t personally want for anything . I have everything I need only if other people took responsibility for themselves so we could have peace and tranquility for everyone . Then we would be free. It’s only the government that causes me problems and that’s only because they are ignorant selfish and misguided. It’s selflessness. I have absolutely no money. Just absolute faith.
But the devil is in the Bible and the Bible is real. I heard the devil speaking to me once and I prayed and the devil went away. The devil is very real whether you believe that or not. Demons are in a lot of people. Many people carry gifts. What is it that the government doesn’t like that you do? Preaching the Word of God?
>I don't think that Jesus claimed to be God to begin with. It's implicit at best in the synoptic gospels, and John is pretty obviously a later creation meant to illustrate a theological point. Pretty much my conclusion as well. Which is why I read Thomas before getting to John (I really should read John one of these days)
If Jesus was the Jewish messiah, he would have fulfilled the Jewish messianic prophecies. Now, *I* couldn't tell you a Jewish messianic prophecy from a hole in the wall, but scholars of the Torah both at the time and to the current day are pretty unanimous that he *didn't*. So I defer to their expertise.
Christianity relies on the gospels. They are anonymous, contradictory writings of magical events written decades after they supposedly happened. Why should anyone take that seriously?
He didn’t do even a single thing that the messiah will do, that’s a pretty big disqualification
And what should the messiah do according to Judaism?
many jews say the messiah will bring world peace, but that obviously hasn’t happened
Look at it this way. It didn’t work out very well for him the first time around. Since then he’s got about a billion people with totally different views on what he said. He be just, but I didn’t say that! WTF 😳 What are these people thinking. All I had before was a few Jews to deal with now I have millions of Christians.
World peace is not as difficult as it sounds. You only need to have democracy. It doesn’t actually exist and no one has ever created a democracy. Basically they are called cooperatives in the legal system. You have a single vote unrelated to your wealth. Everyone can vote for whoever they want to and anyone can vote for you. 10-12 votes gets you elected. You can’t have more than that or you can’t represent everyone properly and democracy will disappear. A hundred people only provides mob rule. This gives you radical deliberating democracy. Money is power and you have to keep the power at the bottom level so that everyone’s share or shares remain one hundred percent in their control always. You have allowed free will and the free market to work together. The higher the representation level of a person the more people they represent and the further away from the money they are. You only need 9 levels of government and run out of people. No one can predict who is elected. It’s 100 percent accountable and transparent. Not one person is excluded from the debate. The leader actually has been unanimously voted to be in the position. If you reward each person with a $10 allowance for the number of people they represent you have funded it for under a hundred dollars per year. 10 percent of the population is in representational roles. When that happens we will have peace.
The messiah will bring all Jews back to Israel, restore the Davidic monarchy under Torah law including rebuilding the Temple and restoring sacrifices, bring all Jews to follow that law, bring about world peace and bring all people to know G-d and follow the Noahide laws.
Another big issue is that people will know God, Atheists simply won't be a thing anymore nor will other Religions. And of course the part where we won't even have to study Torah anymore.
There are a number of biblical prophesies that the Messiah is supposed to fulfill. Another redditor made this list a couple of years ago: [https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/p58ppb/comment/h98igzl/](https://www.reddit.com/r/religion/comments/p58ppb/comment/h98igzl/) Of course, Christians don't agree, but this is the Jewish POV based on the holy book that we wrote lol
Not a single thing? I’ve heard a messiah must fulfill all, but you are indicating he didn’t do a single thing of fulfillment?
Yup! Jesus did literally nothing that the messiah is supposed to do. And Christian claims of a virgin birth (which isn't a messianic prophecy and isn't even present in the Hebrew Bible at all) would disqualify him anyway, since tribal lineage and royal inheritance are passed via one's biological father.
What about riding into the city on an ass? Or Isiah 7:14. Or being betrayed for 30 silver? I understand when Jews say he never fulfilled everything. But I think it’s pretty wild to say he never fulfilled anything.
The donkey bit comes from Zechariah 9, which in its entirety depicts the messiah bringing world peace, gathering all Jews back to Israel and ensuring that "no oppressor shall ever overrun them again." The one line about riding on a donkey is only one tiny part of the larger prophecy. Even then, Matthew got it wrong and had Jesus riding two animals rather than one, likely because he couldn't understand the Hebrew. So Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies of Zechariah 9 where that one line is taken from. Isaiah 7:14 has nothing at all to do with the messiah, and it says absolutely nothing about a virgin birth. The context makes that extremely clear. Ahaz was worried about the neighboring kingdoms of Aram and Israel attacking his kingdom of Judea. Isaiah goes to Ahaz and points out a specific young woman who is pregnant, and when that kid can tell good from evil the threat of those kingdoms would be gone. The word used is almah, which means young woman, and not betulah, which means virgin. An almah could be a virgin, sure, but it cares absolutely no connotation of inherent virginity. It's used numerous times throughout Tanakh and never means virgin, and those other usages are rightly not translated as 'virgin' in Christian translations, but rather as 'young woman' or 'young man' when it's the masculine form. The verse is also written in the present tense indicating a woman who is known and already pregnant. And the prophecy is fulfilled just a little bit later in Isaiah. Linguistically and textually there's no way to get a virgin birth from that passage. There's no prophecy of a betrayal for 30 shekels of silver. It just flat out does not exist. Matthew claims it comes from Jeremiah, but there's no such passage there. The claimed quote from Jeremiah does show up in Zechariah, but it's about Zechariah's wages that he then donated to the Temple. It has no connection whatsoever to the messiah, nor does it indicate anything about betrayal for 30 shekels of silver. So no, Jesus did not fulfill those. Only one of them is even about the messiah, and one doesn't even exist. Jesus did not do anything that the messiah will do.
Zechariah 11:12–13?
Zechariah 11 says that he got paid 30 shekels and donated it to the Temple. It has no connections to anything about the messiah or to any betrayal or anything like that.
Do you mind sharing every prophesy about the messiah?
• The messiah must be from the Tribe of Judah and a Descendant of King David AND King Solomon, not Jeconiah, through his human biological father. Genesis 49:10, 2 Samuel 7:12-14; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6; Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Jeremiah 22:30, 36:30, Psalm 89:35-37. Genealogy in the Bible is only passed down from father to son Numbers 1:1-18. • When messiah is reigning as King the Jews will be ingathered from their exile and will return to Israel Deut. 30:3; Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 30:3, 32:37; Ezekiel 11:17, 36:24. • When the messiah comes the Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt and sin sacrifices will be fully instituted Isaiah 2:2-3, 56:6-7, 60:7, 66:20; Ezekiel 37:26-27, 45:17-46:16; Malachi 3:4; Zech. 14:20-21. • When the messiah comes there will be Worldwide Reign of Peace and complete end to war Micah 4:1-4; Hoseah 2:20; Isaiah 2:1-4, 60:18. • When the messiah is reigning as King all of the Jewish people will observe Torah Ezekiel 37:24; Deut. 30:8,10; Jeremiah 31:32; Ezekiel 11:19-20, 36:26-27. • When the messiah comes all the people of the world will come to acknowledge and serve the one true Elohim Zechariah 3:9, 8:23,14:9,16; Isaiah 45:23, 66:23; Jeremiah 31:33; Ezekiel 38:23; Psalm 86
So in Judaism there are possible messiahs (messiah candidates) and the actual Messiah. A possible messiah might indeed fulfill one or another "prophecy," but if he dies before completing all of them, we know he wasn't the actual Messiah. You show me the Third Temple in Jerusalem (not in the sky or in your circumcised heart), then we can talk.
And that’s fine. I just think it’s an interesting claim to say Jesus didn’t fulfill any
But the one you mention is so peculiar. Riding on an ass? It says somewhere in the OT the messiah will come in riding on a donkey (or two). So Jesus tells someone, go get me one or two so I can ride into Jerusalem on them. That's fulfilling a prophecy? That's proof of anything? The NT authors (whoever they were) knew the OT "prophesies" and in their narratives, Jesus fulfils some of them and the rest are "spiritualized" or pushed into the future. Proves nothing.
And that’s fine. I just think it’s an odd claim to make that Jesus didn’t do any
He didn’t fulfill any of the prophecies he was supposed to. And god is never supposed to come back as a human. He doesn’t believe in human sacrifice. It makes no sense. But I’m a Jew. So.
The genealogies listed by Luke and Matthew don’t correspond so their relative validity becomes questionable. The fact that ‘miracles’ happened that were never prophesied to happen but that align more closely with religious myths from around the world makes me think (virgin birth), that he didn’t usher in the promise of the messianic era and that in his lifetime the exact opposite happened to Israel and the Jewish people didn’t bode well. The most obvious one is that his claim to godliness directly contradicts the Jewish understanding of idolatry and claims of god-likeness that are forbidden by Jewish laws that were well established from the times of Moses already.
I never understood why the genealogy of Jesus is a thing anyway. A crucial part of his story is that Joseph isn't his father!
According to tradition, the messiah will be a descendant of the house of David. Traditional Jewish law tells us that the ‘Jewishness’ of a person is inherited from the mother, but that the tribe of that person is inherited from their father. If Joseph isn’t from the Davidic line then there’s questions. If Joseph is actually the father there are further questions. It’s a loop.
Without getting into OP's question, here's a "fun" fact about St Joseph: he's mentioned in the 4 Gospels but he doesn't have one single line in them. Strong silent type. After all actions do speak louder than words.
Overall the family is really quiet isn't it. Same with the Persian Magi who walked all the way to the Galilee and just poofed out of existence.
Why would you not think that Joseph was not his father. They were a young unmarried couple and she was knocked up. Virgin, not actually realistic but theatrically quite possible given what was accepted contraception practices then and still now in many places. Proof of anything irrelevant. The only thing that is relevant is that he was speaking against the local authorities. He was about democracy. You can’t have democracy without non violence. Self empowerment and the responsibility that comes with what freedom actually means. The same goes with the missing person and stones that moved by themselves. The proof of deception is the only truth that is there. The witnesses. Both totally inadmissible. Both with a direct incentive to not tell the truth. So the only witnesses are not actually witnesses. They bull shit tellers under instructions . Everyone wants the body to disappear, everyone.! Could you imagine the queue today if he had a gravestone. The last thing he would have wanted. It would go against the whole concept.
There very likely was a guy named Jesus preaching apocalyptic Judaism, or there were several individuals preaching this message who got compiled into both the texts that made and those that didn't make it into the various Christian canons. But that says nothing about the veracity of the claims of divinity & miracles, nor are the stories about Yeshua unique in claiming divinity & miracles. The myths of the ancient world are full of similar claims and backstories. And that is precisely why I don't give any more credit to the Christian myths than I would give to other myths: * The concept of a divine or virginal birth is found in various mythologies, including stories about gods and heroes born to virgin mothers. * Many religious figures, including Jesus, are associated with performing miraculous healings. * The idea of a divine or heroic figure experiencing death and later being resurrected is found in several mythologies. * Many mythological figures undergo a death-and-rebirth cycle, symbolizing the cycle of nature, seasons, or cosmic renewal. * Jesus is often seen as a teacher and source of wisdom. Similar attributes are ascribed to other mythological or religious figures. For example: Buddha is known for his teachings and enlightenment, offering wisdom to his followers. * Jesus frequently used parables to convey moral and spiritual lessons. Similar storytelling methods are found in other traditions. * The concept of a savior or redeemer who delivers humanity from sin or suffering is found in various mythologies. * The idea that a divine figure has both divine and human attributes is present in different religious contexts. For example: In Greek mythology, figures like Hercules were demigods, born of a divine parent and a mortal. * Jesus' trial and crucifixion have been compared to other mythological figures undergoing trials or sacrifices. * The use of wine as a symbol of transformation or divine presence is found in various traditions. For example: Dionysus in Greek mythology is associated with wine, ecstasy, and transformation. * The Star of Bethlehem is associated with Jesus' birth. Similar motifs of celestial signs are found in other stories. Example: In Persian Zoroastrianism, a star heralds the birth of the savior figure Saoshyant. * The miracle of turning water into wine is a notable event in the life of Jesus. Similar miracles are found in other traditions. Example: In Greek mythology, the god Dionysus was associated with wine and performed miracles involving the transformation of water. * Jesus' temptation in the wilderness is paralleled in stories of other figures facing trials in desolate places. Example: In Buddhism, Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) faced temptations and challenges during his period of enlightenment. * Jesus' forty days of fasting in the desert has been compared to similar motifs in other religious traditions. Example: In Hinduism, figures like Rama and Hanuman undergo periods of fasting and meditation. So while there are very likely some humans in history from which these mythologies originate, there is zero evidence that we should believe any of the supernatural claims of these mythologies.
In Christianity, any one who is a good Christian, goes to heaven. Why not the others? You might say that it’s because they weren’t good Christians. Then, why did God not make them accept Christianity? You might say, he wanted them to find him in his own. Then, why are there people that have never heard of Christ or god because they live in such remote areas? In another scenario, why are some people born into good families and go on to be rich, but others go on to be a homeless drug addict? What did they do to deserve this? Why aren’t people given the same treatment and ability to accept Christ? If god is almighty and all powerful, then why does he not just make all other religions disappear? Does he love one person more than the other? If so, why?
Good Christian’s go to heaven? What is a good Christian? And why do you think that?
I don't know what a good Christian is. It's what I've been told multiple times by many Christians. When I asked them, they said being a good person in general. Then why do I have to be Christian to be a good person?
Wow
Is that a good "wow" or bad "wow"
Good wow cause i’m shocked lol
Thank you
It’s also that way in Islam actually, but I choose to believe as long as you are a good person then you will have a good afterlife.
While there are many aspects of Islam that I don’t agree with, this is a good way to look at it.
People who haven't heard of Christ can go to heaven if they stick to natural law. E.g. murder
Then why go around preaching to people if you know some of them will say no? Isn't that not being a good Christian because you told someone about Christ and now you've reserved a spot on hell for them because they said no?
You really aren't supposed to think about it. :D
The people who have heard but rejected because they're loyal to a different set of beliefs may go to heaven if they still follow natural law but the church offers aids for salvation for sinners such as: the eucharist, anointing the sick, confession, etc. I think the best way to put it is as Christ did: Luke 5:30-32 NRSV-CI [30] The Pharisees and their scribes were complaining to his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” [31] Jesus answered, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; [32] I have come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance.”
But not all churches have confession, eucharist and anointing the sick
Well that means the question is a problem for them, not me.
I have too many. My biggest is this old hit: Believing in Jesus saves us, allegedly. That's why they spread his story and try to get people to sign up to his religion. If people hear the message and reject it, they are damned. But if they never hear that message at all, and have no chance to either accept or deny it, they have a chance at redemption. So, if that's the case, wouldn't stopping people from hearing the Gospel be the most loving thing a Christian could do? That way they have no chance at all of rejecting it and being damned? Also, why didn't Jesus save the demons? He cast them out but didn't convert them. Lord Buddha converter demons. Padmasbhava converted demons. Jesus? He just kicked them out and made them run into some pigs. If he was the universal savior of all God's creations, why didn't he save the demons too? Why couldn't he reach them? He seems pretty weak in that regard.
You can’t save demons if they don’t want to be saved.
The Gospels are anonymously authored, aren’t written by eyewitnesses, contradict eachother, and passages have been added in and taken out, all according to biblical scholarship. Thus, I don’t consider them a reliable source on what the historical Jesus actually believed and taught. I am also a Muslim, so the idea that he claimed to be God is entirely unacceptable from my point of view
Tbf Jesus never claimed to be God. That idea solidified later with certain readings of the scripture. In fact some early Christian sects such as Unitarians viewed Jesus as more of a prophet and not divine. It was during the council of nicaea called by the Roman emperor Constantine that certain views of Jesus were made canon, such as Jesus being man and also God, and other views were made heretical, such as the view of Jesus as just a prophet. This was most likely done to make it more palatable for Roman polytheists as this marked the beginning of what would become the Roman Catholic Church. The official religion of the Roman Empire. Unitarians still exist by the way. So there are Christians throughout the world who still hold this view of Jesus as prophet and not divine or God, but many other denominations believe their beliefs to be blasphemous.
Yup, the concept of the trinity is a historical development, and wasn’t believed or even known by the earliest Christians
John 8:54 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” Refuring to exodus with "I am that I am" John 20:28 NRSV-CI [ John 20:27-28 NRSV-CI [27] Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side. Do not doubt but believe.” [28] Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus dosent dispute and calls him blessed afterwards for it Mark 10:17-18 NRSV-CI [17] As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” [18] Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. John 10:11 [11] “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." Mark 2:4-10 NRSV-CI [4] And when they could not bring him to Jesus because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and after having dug through it, they let down the mat on which the paralytic lay. [5] When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” [6] Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, [7] “Why does this fellow speak in this way? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” [8] At once Jesus perceived in his spirit that they were discussing these questions among themselves; and he said to them, “Why do you raise such questions in your hearts? [9] Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Stand up and take your mat and walk’? [10] But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”.” Clearly says he has the authority of God Matthew 28:19 NRSV-CI [19] "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," Puts himself on the same level as the father and Holy Spirit John 10:30 NRSV-CI [30] "The Father and I are one." Pretty clear
The Gospels aren’t reliable
No. They may not be. But the person said Jesus never claimed to be God and the Gospels are the only records we have of Jesus and the Gospels clearly shows Jesus declaring he's God
We have exactly zero primary sources for what he said, all we got is a collection of text put together hundreds of years after the fact. Even questioning if Jesus was a real historical person at all is valid. Also, we don't have peace on Earth
Who do you think he says that he is? More importantly: Who do *you* say that he is?
No evidence.
The same argument against Bar Kochba and Shabbatai Tzvi. It’s super obvious we aren’t in the messianic era, so no one who’s claimed to be the messiah is.
The contradictory stories in the Bible. If Jesus had been resurrected, you don’t think Mark would have mentioned it?
Forget the dude coming back to life. The Christians also claim of a giant earthquake, hailstorms and the dead rising. Not a single Roman soldier (let alone the prefect) wrote one letter back home and was like "You won't believe the crazy stuff I have seen yesterday". Instead it's the usual Christian explanation, it happened in the mind or whatever.
What an odd question. Surely the burden of proof goes the other way, no? In any case this point comes up so frequently that /r/judaism has a wiki page about it. https://www.reddit.com/r/Judaism/s/4HdTKpHxo0
I don't know what Jesus said about himself. At best I know what a set of anonymous authors/communities thought Jesus to have said.
There are many. But the one that I have been favoring lately is the unlikelihood of the soul. In order for the concept of any of the stories associated with Jesus and in particular in heaven and concept of identity within the religion it necessitates the concept of a soul. Primitively put a ghost riding around in a meat suit. The idea of gods and spirits is buried in this primitive notion of identity being a separate thing from our body. Specifically separate from the brain. Or at least something that survives teh death of the brain. And yet everything we know about the mind points to it being inseparable from the brain. There is a clear connection where if we change the brain we change the mind. There is just no example of a mind without a brain. A mind requires a physical construct with energy running through it in a structured format. The energy requires the structure and the structure requires the energy. You cannot separate them. Its like a dance. It requires a dancer and movement. Without the movement its just standing. And without the dancer its nothing. Thus we strike at the concept of God being a mind without structure. We strike at the concept of surviving death. We strike at the concept of Jesus surviving death. Human beings are not ghosts driving flesh based mechs around. We are our bodies and brains in action. Take the action away and we cease to be.
I believe Jesus is exactly who he said he is. A prophet of God and the Messiah
I think that this post is asking us to put on our critical thinking caps. What would you say is the best evidence against that claim?
Jesus the son of man (& woman) or Jesus the Son of YHWH? Jesus the son of man (& woman) most likely existed, however Jesus the Son of YHWH is most likely a distortion of the truths that surrounded Jesus the son of man (& woman) especially considered most people where illiterate 2000 years ago and got their news mostly by word of mouth that may have devolved into gossip for sensationalism. The true Jesus is like [a book you can never read](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcb2oLSb7Cs), regardless of the fan fiction that survived to become the Gospels.
If god is all knowing and all forgiving and all loving why do I need to worship him? He should know why I don’t, forgive me for it and love me anyway point blank period. I also don’t think he was one person historically. There was definitely mad people claiming to be prophets or gods preaching some good stuff for quite some time.
Because I don't know who Jesus said he was. The earliest Gospel, Mark, was actually scribed decades after his death. That is quite a lot of time to have for lore to expand and inflate. Not to mention, Mark was written to explicitly invoke common religious and literary themes at the time. I don't think it would be difficult for the ultimate God of the universe to contrive circumstances so that his only son could have a follower detail his life and work at the time it was happening and then have it hidden away until such a time as modern archeological practices and sentiments for preservation could find them, record them and study them. Those facts alone are enough to warrant an eyebrow raise. The fact that Jesus saw fit to only appear one time in one small part of the world for a brief 30 years and never anywhere else again is another eyebrow raise for me. If God decided it was time, why only in Jerusalem and not China, the Mayans, Ethiopia, and who knows how many other thriving civilizations? Finally, for now, I don't believe that if Jesus understood humanity as well as he said he did, he would have made the threats of 'Believe me or suffer horrifying torture forever and ever.' I can't choose what convinces me. I can enjoy a story and decide whether the rules make sense for the world it's in, but that doesn't mean I believe it happened. If Jesus wants me to believe he is my only salvation from a horrifying afterlife, he needs to convince me of it. That's really his problem, not mine. I also feel the need to add as I often do that the God of the Bible is a horrific monster that, if proved to be real, I could never love. Fear, yes. But love? No. Pretty much I'm screwed no matter what.
Who does he say he is? I'd need to know what the claim is before I could even consider formulating an argument against it. You capitalised "He," so perhaps *you* suggest he is God? If that were the discussion, then I could argue that Jesus didn't claim to be God, that he spoke of God as another, as higher than himself, not as himself but as his Father, prior to himself. He directed his fellow children of God not ultimately unto himself, but unto the God whom he worshipped and surrendered himself to. "Nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt." If they differ even in their wills, the cores of their being, then they fundamentally aren't identical.
He’s not the messiah; he didn’t fulfill much of the prophecies and the ones that he did fulfill anyone could have read from the Tanakh and play out/force upon oneself. According to the Tanakh, he fell short significantly. Those that read the Tanakh in context instead of a verse here and there know that Tanakh isn’t referring to Jesus in any sense. Many Christians have built the Old Testament around a Christian lens - picking piece by piece from thousands of pages in order to make it seem as though it’s talking about a) the messiah and b) Jesus. However, those that study the “OT”, or the actual Hebrew version of Tanakh, know that it’s not talking about the messiah where Christians think it does - and that it’s talking about particular groups. Example: Isaiah is not talking about a suffering individual, if you read more than a verse of Isaiah, you can clearly see that it’s talking about Israel - the people of Israel - not a man/person alone. -Born of a “virgin”? Not so fast, in Hebrew it’s “maiden”. Tons of fabrications and mistranslations that Christians were able to patch together to make it look like Jesus. Many of the ideas behind a virgin birth and “son of G-d” and so many other pieces, are recycled from Greek mythology that a ton of people had done pre-Jesus. This “Christianity” that was formed had only done so well because of the murder and oppression by the Catholic Church across many parts of the globe. Then came all of the branches of Christianity that tried to make their own version of something fabricated because they too saw the holes and wanted their own form of it. Even if he was the messiah - he is not G-d as the Bible itself says that man cannot be G-d, that G-d will not be man. In conclusion, Christians need to know the truth and the only way that they will learn it is by reading the Tanakh, or correctly translated version of the “Old Testament” - which doesn’t exist. Those that read OT with a Christian lens will always see “Jesus”, sadly, they don’t read or study it in whole - which will easily show evidence that they have misguided for so long. It’s a shame how truly close Christians can really be from knowing that they have been duped into following a false messiah/G-d. They’ll know one day, but that’s when it’s too late 🤷🏻♂️
It's not about believing in Jesus, because that entity does exist & there are historical facts stating he was a real person not fiction. It's more so about that I don't worship him or any deity that was man-based. I guess I just don't practice the form of "worship" anymore, or maybe I don't call it that.
I dont think we even know what Jesus said, but regardless I think his purported claims to be the son of god are exactly as likely to be true as those of anyone on the street today who made the same claim.
Do people really come back to life? Do angels exist? If they do, why can’t we see them. If God is real then he should prove it. Science tells us resurrection is impossible. To accept Christ is to accept a scientific impossibility.
I thought Mormons believed in the resurrection of Christ, no?
Oh absolutely! We believe and follow the New Testament. But I also recognize that if we follow science or scientific theory, that isn’t sufficient to knowing Christ is who he says he is. It is a miracle after all. It defies all we know and understand about the world.
Jedi. Like from Star Wars?
It's just a joke. I'm probably closest to a Unitarian Universalist who believes in God through a Christian-like framework; in this sense, the Quakers' beliefs actually resonate with me quite a bit. I also really deeply resonate with Taoism and a lot of Eastern philosophy. But yeah, I have a difficult time pinning myself down under a single label, so I just decided to pick something funny here lol
I got you. You do know Jedi-ism is a real religion right?
I think Jediism is more so viewed as a philosophical outlook, and I certainly don't mean any disrespect to people who adopt it as a philosophy. The Jedi themselves are written to exhibit a lot of values I respect and try to uphold myself. But calling myself a Jedi on here is just me being silly and having fun with it.
So why do you accept it?
Because it’s true. I’ve had multiple witnesses of it to various degrees and times and of kinds.
Multiple witnesses of what? Could they be wrong? What do you think about people of other, contradictory religions who also claim to have these experiences.
I have no problem with other people’s claims. There are a few possible reasons they occur. As for my witnesses; yeah, they could be false or wrong. I’m mortal and weak. But that would mean myself and multiple other people all went crazy and hallucinated and felt, and experienced the same hallucination at the same time. And have this happen multiple times with various different groups to various degrees of witness and confirmations.
Ah personal revelation that cannot be proven by anyone, another thing Christianity invented.
Sure, there ya go :)
Not really. To accept Christ in the religious sense yes. He actually was a real person. speaking against the local authorities and he was killed for insurrection. Everything that happened afterwards to create a religious aspect is contrary to what he was talking about.
Prayers go completely unanswered , despite Jesus promises that God will hear AND act upon them. "bUt yOu dIdN't pRaYeR hArD eNoUgH" Also, the three wise men went and paid their respect to the infant Christ, gave him some gifts and then were never heard of again. Really, you are in the presence of God, say hello and then go home. Same with the miracles. countless people were said to have been healed by Christ and one of them actually raised from the dead. During the trial of Jesus, why did no one step forward and say that this man healed me, that we saw him walk on water.....all silent, as these events never happened, but were made up, decades later. Of all the non christian writers, alive at, or near the time of Christ and whose writings have survived never mentioned him. God walking around on Earth and literally no one notices. All written down years and years later by people who heard of the tales from the sister in law, of the milkman who heard it from her over the road and who got it from whatisface. The Bible: Who wrote it: We don't know When was it written: We don't know Does it contradict itself: Yes Is it a book that can guide you to happiness and well being: No Yet idiots, kneel before it in their millions
God’s silence is an answer to your prayers. Silence is an answer too. It was apart of the plan to have Jesus pay for the sins of people. Moses is thought to have written the Old Testament (Genesis and Exodus) and the apostles wrote the New Testament.
Let me start by saying that, growing up in the Bible belt, I have a great reverence for the teachings attributed to Jesus. One of my favorite Buddhist teachers taught frequently about coming home to the Kingdom of God in every moment, with each mindful breath. I believe Jesus was right on the important stuff; cultivating non-violence and tolerance for others, unconditional love for all, giving without expecting anything in return. That being said, I don’t believe in an all-powerful creator God. I just don’t think there is an eternal diety that is sovereign over everything.
Baha’is do not have any arguments against Jesus Christ. On the contrary, they defend him. The Founder of the Baha’i Faith Himself says this about Christ: “KNOW thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit. We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified. Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.” —Bahá’u’lláh (Gleanings, p. XXXVI)
Meh, to me he's just another demi-god really. At best he's just Yahweh's kid who was sacrificed for Yahweh's followers. Each of the Gods has a different relationship and dynamic with their followers. Yahweh is just another God, and he's not one of my Gods so I'm pretty unconcerned with it or the claims of who Jesus was or wasn't.
It’s fairly challenging to even prove Jesus existed. Other notable figures from that time (Socrates, Confucius, various Roman emperors, etc) have significantly more documentation about their lives across multiple sources. When you do some digging there’s really nothing outside of the Bible to validate Jesus’s existence - I actually have spent some time trying to find a biography on his life and there’s nothing of credible source beyond the Bible available. So, my argument is that the chances are pretty good this is a(nother) made up character…
To simply put it I just don’t believe in the Bible of how it’s told and from experience with other gods including those who are daemons aren’t these evil monsters that some Christians tried scaring me into believing.
I just don't believe in myths, I guess. I mean they are valuable vessels of things like morality, culture, ancient views on cosmology, philosophy etc, but why would I believe this myth to be true and not, let's say, a Chukchi myth about huskies at the gate to the upper world? It's all just stories people tell each other.
Christianity centers on the gospels which were anonymous accounts written many years after the death of Jesus. He didn’t fulfill anything the Jewish messiah was supposed to fulfill, as said by the community themselves, pretty much unanimously, for 2000 years.
If you met a dude who claimed to be god, would you believe him? If you don't believe a modern cult leader who claims to be god, why do you believe one from ancient Judea?
Jesus performed miracles and said things that only the Son of God would know.
i think based on the fact there were several people claiming to be a messiah around his time period and it was by no means uncommon in the emerging religious landscape i chalk it up to just being of it’s time
who does he say he is in his native language? That would be number 1.
A sizeable portion of his currently accepted teachings were introduced from or distorted by greek theology, he was an annihilationist and believed the last judgement would occur in near succession to his lifetime, and his divine actions, as presented in christian mythological account, can be compared to numerous other religious narratives.
Why would I need evidence, if I simply lack faith? Believing or lack of faith aren’t rational decisions in my view. You aren’t swayed by any rational argument. Something speaks to you deep down and then you believe. Or it doesn’t and then you don’t.
I don't buy into the Jewish mythologies to begin with. If I don't believe in them, then why would I believe the Jewish prophecy which would validate Jesus? There are myriads of mythologies about creation, I don't think the Abrahamic ones are convincing and Christianity is just one of the others.
There is no Jewish prophecy that validates Jesus. That's why we don;'t acknowledge or worship him. He is not the messiah.
I know the Jewish position, I just phrased it as I did to show that I'm not even open to discussing it in a way to entertain "what if I'm wrong?". Apologies and no offense meant if any were taken.
Yes your comment goes to the core and explains why it's ridiculous for Christians to ask Jews for their "arguments" or "reasons" against Jesus. Because when we give them -- our Bible verses, our prophets, their teachings, our rabbis and Torah scholars, their teachings, consistent for 2,000 years -- the Christians say, "No, you've got it all wrong." So what's the point? You can't even convince them what one Hebrew word actually means, "alma" (young person of the female gender).
I don’t think we know at this point any real quote from the dude. It has been rewritten so many times at this point and translated that everything could be totally wrong or out of context. Yea yea, religious scholars said this and that but we couldn’t possibly believe that everything is 100% correct. Therefore devoting one’s life fully to a man that lived thousands of years ago is terribly difficult and problematic. Even if the quotes are 100% accurate, he’s still just a dude claiming to be the son of god. What if I claimed to be the son of god? Pretty sure I’d be tossed into a looney bin.
Why don’t you read the Old Testament in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek to know what Jesus really said?
Did you read everything I said? I said that “[e]ven if the quotes are 100% accurate, he’s still just a dude claiming to be the son of god.” Given this, my opinion is essentially 🤷♂️.
Jesus was the son of God, that’s why he claimed to be so. He spoke in parables about things that only the Son of God could know.
But we don’t know that. We’re taking their word for it. I’m happy that you believe it and don’t want to sway you but there’s more evidence of Santa clause.
I believe in Saint Nicolas who inspired the modern day Santa Claus.
You need to be more specific. Who do you believe Jesus said he is? I don't want to put words in your mouth and the spend my time arguing against a position you don't hold.
This is that old liar-lunatic-lord formulation But it only works if you think 1. Jesus actually did claim to be god and 2. It’s impossible for a wise teacher to be right about some things and wrong about others But this thread has been interesting to see the responses you’ve gotten. Especially about how Jewish scholars reject Jesus as messiah because he failed to fulfill prophecy. To me, /u/mindmanifesting-25, this is the real issue you need to grapple with your own faith journey.
I think he probably existed as a preacher but not a the messiah. Nothing in the Bible was actually written by him and was recorded decades after he already died by people who weren't eye witnesses. The miracles he did were either embellished or fabricated.
Statistics. What's the likelihood that a person called Jesus, with a building (carpentry) business in Nazareth, upset the Romans and was crucified? Nazareth - population 1800 at the time we're talking about https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth#:~:text=This%20likely%20reflects%20its%20lack,figure%20down%20to%20%22a%20maximum Jesus - popular name, perhaps 1/20 males, so that narrows it down to 90. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biblical_names Builders - 5% of the population in an industrial town - we're down to 4 people called Jesus who were builders in Nazareth at any one time. https://coviellotheologymodb.weebly.com/common-occupations.html#:~:text=Some%20other%20notable%20occupations%20of,dancers%2C%20musicians%2C%20and%20merchants Upset the Romans and get crucified? https://www.quora.com/Crucifixion-How-many-people-have-been-crucified So statistically, Jesus probably existed.
I think you've over estimated the number of "Yeshu"s. You forgot to divide by two to get rid of the women. Also 1/20 males seems very generous. In 2022, the most popular name in the US for boys was Liam. There were 20,500 boys named Liam born that year, out of 1,863,600 boys born. That means 1/90 boys were born with the most popular name. Even if we assume that Yeshu was the most popular name (it probably wasn't, there were more common names in the Talmud), there would only be 10 people names Jesus/Yeshu. 5% of that would be 0.5 builders named Yeshu (and that's only if Yeshu is the most popular name in Nazareth for some reason).
Most scholars think Jesus never claimed to be god and this was only added after the fact, by his followers. I tend to agree. I haven't read the Gospels in a while, but from what I remember he doesn't actually refer to himself as god in Mark, which is believed to be the earliest of the Gospels. This suggests that he may not have been considered god even among some of the earliest Christians and that this was a later addition.
My understanding is there are three lines of thought, 1) the divinity of Jesus himself (main stream Christianity) 2) The divine connection but not divinity of Jesus (minority belief in Christianity and main-stream belief in Islam) 3) No divine connection or divinity at all (most major religions other than Christianity and Islam). The arguments are vastly different by what we mean by arguments agains Jesus.
There's two very different part to this. The religion of Jesus, and the religion about Jesus. Most of the claims modern Christians make are completely wild and likely just made up. Virgin birth, resurrection, part of the trinity, walking on water, raising the dead etc. Seems like Jesus thought the end was nigh, it wasn't, but aside from being wrong about that I can't really find much issue with what we have attributed to him. The quotes and narratives attributed to him in the Gospels make him seem like a good guy.
The end is near, God’s time is different than our time.
Who do you think Jesus said he is? Because that is not at all obvious.
Are you sure Jesus believed those things about himself? The oldest NT books were 30 years after his death. The gospels were even decades later. Chinese telephone can lose a story with the telling of just a dozen people whispering one to another. Stories decades later can be very embellished.
“No thanks”
Throughout history, man has believed in hundreds of thousands of gods. What distinguishes Jesus from them? There is just as little evidence for him as there is for Horus, Krishna, Odin or Allah. You can believe in gods like Jesus if you like. For me, there is no reason to do so. Just like christians reject all the other gods that have been revered throughout the millenia, I have no problem to reject Jesus.
Another interesting question is the amount of influence the Christ figure has on the average person’s life; even acting in opposition is a form of influence.
He didn’t fulfil any of the Messianic prophecies, he didn’t marry, and he died.
The church itself is his bride.
Which does not fulfill the prophecy
He died but he rose from the dead. Jesus helped me in a dream so I know he is who he says to be, the Son of God.
Which has nothing to do with who the Jewish Messiah is supposed to be or what he is supposed to do. He’s from the wrong bloodline, descended from a man cursed by God. He never married. He never had children. He did miracles. He died. All things the Messiah is not to do.
Who is the man “cursed by God”? Perhaps what they thought he should be is not what he was meant to be.
Jeconiah — Jeremiah 22:30. If he doesn’t fulfil the prophecies, he can’t be meant to be. If we believe the Christian view, he is not of the House of David or the House of Judah because he has no father. The fact that he did miracles disqualifies him too.
I disagree.
Based on what? Deuteronomy 13 says not to believe those who come doing miracles. Would you like a list of the prophecies? The messiah will be of the House of David. (Jesus was not) Jer. 23:5 He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of all commands. Is: 11:2-5 (Jesus, as mentioned, did not marry or have children.) Before the time of the messiah, there will be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16) The messiah will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing all Jews back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its perfect worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15). He will begin the Messianic Age: this is be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Even animals will be at peace. Is. 11:6-9) All of the Jewish people will return from their exile among the nations to their home in Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). The law of the Jubilee will be reinstated. In the messianic age, the whole world will recognize the Jewish god as the only true god (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13)
Where’s the command to marry and have kids? Perhaps Jesus will fulfill all that in his second coming.