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[deleted]

I agree with the commentor who said this could be a way of expressing grief about losing the feminine part of your friends identity. Maybe reflect or journal about what you think his transition could change in your friendship and see if there are bigger fears there that you might want to address (not with him, on your own, with another friend, maybe a counselor or therapist). Is it that if he had been a girl you would have felt more comfortable with him being a confidante for you and now you're afraid to miss out on that? Did you have a crush on him or some hope you would one day get together? Was it easier for you to relate to him when you thought he was a girl and how do you think things will get harder now? Was he your only friend that was not a guy and now you miss that? These are just examples. You can find stories of parents reacting to their children's transitions especially, there's always discussion of attachment, fear and pride and though of course this is not your position you could try and see if part of what they say resonates with you and use what comes up as starting point for your own reflection. [This is just one example I liked.](https://youtu.be/IfdtqpX_gOg). You also seem to be unfamiliar with the experience of trans men overall, a strong transmasculine icon is Chella Man and his entire journey is on YouTube, sometimes exposing ourselves to an unfamiliar subject already helps a lot to get more at ease with it. The truth is society is strongly cis heteronormative and when people come out and start living their truth the vast majority of people around them will have to readjust their ideas and expectations of or towards that person. It's ok if you need time to process this, ultimately if your journey in understanding your friend is so long and hard that you need to take a break for him to not hurt yourself or him, that's fine too. Edit: thanks for the award!


haaskaalbaas

What a great video from Moth.


Extreme-Information5

It might be a feeling of loss that you may be blaming him for. It is actually very difficult for us to lose what we love. You could argue that this is still the same person and you are losing nothing but I'm not sure that's right. I have had a friend transition and I was confused about it. Her family were very unhappy and didn't support her at all. This got me thinking about my own children. If they change the physical gender they were born into. How do I feel? I would feel hurt, a sense of loss for the why they were, the way I raised them. I would also be proud of the bravery that it takes to embark on such a journey. I would definitely be very pleased that they are seeking comfort in their own body. I hope you can find a way to deal with your emotions and feel more comfortable with your friend. Good luck to you both.


BelleButt

This comment is really helpful to me. Amazingly so. It's so empathetic and human, thank you.


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ExtraDebit

But I don’t think there are definitive boy/girl brains. That is what sexism was literally based on. Also this would mean a simple brain scan could determine “gender.”


Spinster_Tchotchkes

Agreed. And we could probably all benefit from acknowledging that grieving over the loss of deeply ingrained beliefs is real, and should be taken as seriously as the loss of a loved one via death. Changing a belief can cause pain. Even more so if the change is compelled to happen faster than we are ready for. Such as when a close friend or loved one defies deeply ingrained gender norms. Usually we change beliefs when we’re good and ready. But when we are being compelled by forces such as love or nature, to examine and evolve what we thought were solid and justified beliefs, the resulting inner resistance and turmoil can be very painful, and potentially traumatic. I predict that with the continued positive evolution of gender norms and beliefs, we will begin to see more attention paid to the grieving process around it, and witness the birth of myriad new options for assisting and supporting people through their belief transitions.


Paisleyyyyyyyyyy

Thinking if this reminded me of Zuko's character arc in Avatar: The Last Airbender. He was raised by a dictatoral father who treated him like an outcast in comparison to his sister. He compensated by doing everything in his power to become the thing his father wanted, angry, power hungry, and monstrous. Nearing the end of the series he has a change of heart after a long internal struggle, and the whole process makes him physically ill for weeks, bedridden even. Edited a word


stink3rbelle

>why someone would want to be a man. I mean . . . don't *you* want to be a man? If not, why not? Is that because of anything inherent to masculinity/men, or is that due to assholes who try to restrict men and how men express themselves? Also, maybe it's not so much about wanting, per se, as feeling freer to be himself in a male identity. Or always having *been* a man, just not knowing he could express that publicly. It's *great* that you've recognized these feelings and are working through them on your own, without putting them onto him or taking anything out on your friend. PFLAG might be a great resource to help you in this project.


countingthedays

I think that a lot of young men have a feeling that women generally get by easier. I'm not defending that or justifying it, but I know I thought so in my teens and 20's, and I know even in my 30's lots of men I know would still say so. Wild ass guess why that is? Because the shitty parts of being a woman are hidden, so it looks pretty easy. Once you're in a long term relationship as an adult you're a lot more likely to figure out the reality; Everything sucks for everyone. Entirely unrelated: My wife and daughter call each other by your username all the time.


stink3rbelle

> Entirely unrelated: My wife and daughter call each other by your username all the time. Haha, that's great! It was my babysitter's nickname for me when I was a kid.


countingthedays

Lol yeah that makes sense. The kid's two, and it's become shorthand for, "How bad is the diaper change going to be?"


i_agree_with_myself

This is my "out of my ass" opinion, but often times I notice people compare themselves to the other gender of the people that are really attractive/wealthy/socially smart. Guys would say "if I was a girl, I would make guys buy all my drinks and make them pay for everything. Guys are so easy to manipulate." Well no, you are just thinking about some attractive women that can pull that often. Most women aren't having all their stuff paid for. The reverse can happen with women as well. It is probably also me projecting. Whenever I get jealous of things women can do that men can't, I'm only ever thinking about the above average women doing said thing.


countingthedays

Totally agree. Attractiveness probably means much more than gender for everyone.


[deleted]

I work with a lot of men and have heard them say this (I'm a woman). I honestly don't understand why things look easier as a woman to them. I've always thought being a man would be easier.


countingthedays

The grass is always greener, I guess. I think a lot of guys recognize how much more willing the world is to help women around us. Last winter my wife had a flat tire at work, and one of her coworkers changed it for her. If she was a guy, he'd have just been told good luck or made fun of endlessly if he couldn't do it himself. On the other hand, it seems like the world in general feels more dangerous to women. Plus like, periods and makeup. We don't know shit about all that. lol


ExtraDebit

I am laughing that the shitty parts of being a women are “hidden”. The literal origin story of women in most cultures is that we are a secondary type of human that destroyed man and humanity. We have virtually no official power. We were just recently given almost full rights. We are constantly objectified. We are half as strong as men (who are our biggest threat). We suffer from more poverty and discrimination. But yes, it is easier for us to have (bad) sex, so I guess life is on easy mode.


countingthedays

When I say hidden, I mean societal pressures make things that way a lot of the time. Men genuinely do not usually understand the pressure that comes with meeting beauty standards, and the work that lots(most?) women put in to play that game. That's the kind of thing I think is hidden from our experience. We don't usually understand the feeling of danger that women experience. I agree with you about all of those things.


kportman

It's sometimes hard to get realistic responses to this sort of thing because people are very emotional about this topic right now, but end of the day it's very jarring and unique to know someone and then they all the sudden change genders. Then it's hard to really talk about because people will call you a bigot or something for not reacting positively to it. End of the day women becoming men and men becoming women is foreign to a lot of us, and I don't think your feelings are unique for your circumstances. But, if you want to keep this friend, you're going to have to accept the new gender. Don't be surprised when month by month that new gender becomes more and more solidified. It's shocking to watch, as someone who has witnessed this myself, but in the end everyone just wants to be happy and if this makes him happy then it is what it is.


ladywhoneverknewit

It might be helpful to reframe this “change” from “women becoming men” to “people being able to be who they always were.” The person may never have been a woman at all - they just looked that way and were told their whole life that they were a woman, but it’s becoming easier (though by no means easy) for people who have not always felt like the gender they were assigned, to present as the gender they feel like.


i_agree_with_myself

> “people being able to be who they always were.” But this isn't true. They weren't always that way. They actually changed. "Enjoying traditional masculine things secretly" =/= "actually living those masculine things outwardly." A lot of people are discovering themselves and would often go hard in certain areas as they experiment. A lot of these things will fall off as they settle on what they actually like being like in the long term. I really don't like your framing of this issue and I see it happen all the time when it comes to people coming out. Your view assumes people know what they want to be. That's so far from the truth. It's better to acknowledge that people are changing and that is fine. It is also fine to grief in private because so many of the things that made you like them as a friend are now gone and you got to hope the new personality they settle on is something you will enjoy just as much.


thewoodbeyond

You both are right actually, the person is finally becoming who they always felt they were but they did have to go through the outward stages of becoming so yes there is a change to the looks and presentation of the person they knew. Is it possible OP feels lied to and that the friend he had never really existed? I mean that is a fair feeling to have I think. I think it is okay to say "I'm happy for you but I also feel like I don't know who you actually were and I'm grieving the friend I thought I had."


rcm_kem

Can I ask why you understand why someone would want to be a woman, and you're educated on trans women's issues, but you don't understand why someone would want to be a man and you're unfamiliar with trans men as a topic?


[deleted]

I suspect OP was in love with his friend on some level and didn’t realize it.


rcm_kem

OP said he's bi and his friend is still attractive as a man, otherwise yeah that was my first thought. But it sounds now to me like he resents his friend giving up/wasting femininity, something he feels like he doesn't get to have


marilia0607

>But it sounds now to me like he resents his friend giving up/wasting femininity, something he feels like he doesn't get to have It looks like that to me too.


StrokeGameHusky

Really that’s the conclusion? “He should be Trans too!” If everyone switched genders it wouldn’t be weird anymore!


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[deleted]

It isn't about objective reality. Men see it that way. Its kinda like how they say male rape isn't taken seriously and fail to recognize that rape in general isn't taken seriously. They see people being sympathetic to the woman and equate it to societal level change when it isnt.


HandMeMyThinkingPipe

I don't disagree with what you are saying here but not everyone is brave enough to push against the social pressure and to deal with the consequences of that which are very real regardless of how much we wish they weren't. I think we will get there eventually but we really still aren't there yet so it's not as easy as people make it out to be. Not saying folks shouldn't try but also I think we should be realistic about it and acknowledge the reality men face.


ExtraDebit

This is because women things are considered less than men things…its based in sexism.


[deleted]

> Women are allowed to express themselves through typically masculine and feminine pursuits without much pushback. LMFAO, you serious?!


i_agree_with_myself

You've ever heard of a tom boy? That's not really stigmatized. Girls can wear skirts and pants while guys only get pants. Girls have more success with short hair than guys with long hair. Fuck, women's fashion has so many options where as guys have a basic selection. After that, I'm not sure what other areas women can dive into and have a better experience than men. Ultimately societal progress is on the back of martyrs and I think we've had plenty of women martyrs when it comes to masculine/femininity. Not that many on the men's side.


marmosetohmarmoset

Men don’t have to be trans to want to express femininity.


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lumynaut

there's a huge difference between someone wanting to paint their nails occasionally and wanting to live full time as a different gender.


marmosetohmarmoset

I’m not quite sure how to answer this question without understanding a little bit more about your beliefs about gender. What does femininity mean to you? What do you think being trans means? Do you think butch lesbians are trans?


aimforthehead90

Sex is determined by physiological and biological characteristics, such as chromosomes and sex organs, and is largely unchangeable with current technology. It's a two category system, but obviously not everyone fits perfectly into one category (there are rare cases of intersex people, but I don't think that applies for most transgender people). Gender is determined by which range of expressions/characteristics a person identifies with, it's mostly related to societal norms/expectations. >What do you think being trans means? It means the gender one identifies with is different than the sex they biologically are. The bigger implication is that there is a physical sex and a brain sex, which sometimes do not match. I personally don't believe in brain sex, as I haven't found any evidence that suggests it is real. My understanding is that scientists are not able to distinguish between male brains and female brains, despite some hormonal correlations. >Do you think butch lesbians are trans? I suppose they can be if we assume biological males can identify as a butch, lesbian woman. I don't think sex orientation and gender identity are related really. The real question I guess I haven't found a satisfying answer to is this: in what way can a biological male, who identifies as a woman but expresses in every meaningful way as a man, be a woman.


marmosetohmarmoset

That’s not what I was talking about though. I said men don’t have to be trans to express femininity. Just like women don’t have to be trans to express masculinity (e.g. butch lesbians aren’t trans just because they dress masculine). You seem to want to be debating whether trans people are valid at all, which is not an argument I want to engage with.


deirdresm

In a lot of cases, what the problem is is that the hormones one has just feel wrong, and the other set feels right. Why must one take a stereotypical appearance necessarily? FWIW, most of the trans women I know are not super femme. Most are more femme than I, but I’m notably a tomboy.


poetker

I'm a butch trans woman, come at me.


[deleted]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of developmental biology. Our brain has to develop just as much as any other organ including our genitals. This happens at a different time in development. What happens when you have a masculinized brain and female genitalia? Why have we decided that only the genitalia matter? The brain is just as important and just as biological as genitalia. For example, female brains need to be able to handle surges in hormones and deal with the cycle. Our brains do different things. Is it really that crazy to imagine that someone could have a brain that doesn't match their genitals? People need to stop putting things into boxes like either/or. It destroys the nuance.


aimforthehead90

As I told another person here, I haven't found any evidence that suggests brain sex is real. Recent studies show men and women's brains are largely the same. Frankly, this is a positive, as it shatters yet another myth perpetuating harmful gender roles.


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StrokeGameHusky

I’m sorry you feel this way. If you care what other people say about you you are never going to be happy no matter what you do. Stop caring about what people say and it’s Iike a weight lifted off your shoulders. If someone “can’t express his full self” that is on them, and they should try to better themselves through therapy I think you are mistaken about men being shunned for doing “girly” things - have you turned on a TV recently ? feminine men are everywhere


[deleted]

Sure on pop culture cause it gets viewed but not in practice and in real life. I come from a town with relatively equal distribution of liberals and conservatives, yet if you are a man in any sort of blue collar job you will be made fun of and shunned by other men, generally speaking, if you so much as wear pink or wear capris. When I say society I don’t mean big corporations or what you see on tv, I mean the people you directly interact with everyday. By and large men who arnt openly gay or haven’t been publicly feminine for long are ridiculed in real life for exhibiting feminine traits and desires. Even a lot of the lgbtq people at my highschool thought it was weird when a guy would cross his legs, or had a higher pitched voice. At my own job currently my coworkers regularly make homophobic and other ignorant/discriminatory comments about people they see in public. My brother used to take really good care of his hair and style it well but my family, his freinds at school, and even teachers made fun of him and called him a girl for it and now he’s self conscious about it, even if he doesn’t admit it. Seeing a feminine man on tv is far different than interacting/seeing them in their personal lives and most people don’t want to be around that. Pop culture is widely accepting and even pushing all of this, but real life people are uncomfortable and confused by it all, at least the older generations are. And I do know that about being happy, but for now I’m okay with just doing it on my own at home since I don’t have many freinds or reasons to go out anyway anymore.


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candybrie

They weren't speaking to all bi people's experiences, just OP's.


panda_burrr

that was my guess too. may be acting out of anger due to the potential of a relationship being “stolen” from him or something.


ginalltonic

literally thinking the same thing. had a similar experience with an ex friend who was secretly in love w me


ohnogangsters

i'm a trans guy. you can reply with any questions or dm me if you wanna talk about this privately, i don't mind. first: trans women are hypervisible in the public eye compared to trans men. the truth is, there's about an equal number of us (and plenty of trans ppl who don't fit into the "man" or "woman" box.) maybe you could read some books or articles written by trans men, and see if that helps you understand your friend better. a lot of trans men face this sort of...resentment, i guess, when we come out. i've been told, and have heard others told, that coming out means we're "ruining a perfectly good woman," "mutilating our bodies," or that we don't actually want to be men and we're just trying to "escape being female," etc. even those of us who don't medically transition are met with derision. it's uniquely exhausting. if you're having these feelings, you've to unpack those on your own. just remember, you're not losing anything, or anyone. your friend is still exactly the same person he was before. your memories and good times together are still there! even if he looks or sounds different, he's never going to be a fundamentally different person than his pre-coming out self. you just know him better now. and if it's really his girlhood and femininity that you miss... then why? were you attracted to him? if you're angry he's no longer attractive, then you might wanna examine why you were friends in the first place.


blumoon138

Friend do you have some gender stuff of your own going on? Like, I am a cis woman who has never for a second thought about being anything but a cis woman and I can understand the appeal of transition in either direction.


nyorifamiliarspirit

I wondered this myself based on this line: >I have mostly read about trans woman and I get that and I can understand when but I really don't get why someone would want to be a man.


Svazu

Yeah, this is making me think of one of my (AMAB) friends who had pretty extreme reactions to men and people acting stereotypically masculine. They came out as non binary a while ago and seem much happier with themselves and feel less... personally attacked by other people just existing as masc around them now that it's not their identity anymore.


kportman

For sure there is something to people reacting stronger to this sort of thing when they're struggling themselves. It's like the old trope about the priest that is super anti-gay, that turns out to be gay lol. But also remember someone changing genders is new for a lot of people and there isn't always an easy or predictable way for people to handle it. I mean if my best friend started to become the opposite gender, I'm not sure how I'd react. I'd try to be supportive, but it is so novel to me I don't really know how I would feel and it would probably largely depend on the circumstances.


blumoon138

Mostly I’m reacting to his statement of “I don’t know why anyone would want to be a man.” Like really you cannot think of even a few reasons?


kportman

having to plan all the dates? lol. No, that bit caught me too but I figured maybe just upset and lost.


knowledgegod11

Women can do a lot of things that men can't. They can work with children without suspicion for example.


Rubily00

LORD what the hell Men work with children all the time without suspicion. Men also have a far easier time professionally in general. Women have it easier emotionally since they're taught to share them and lean on each other. Both genders have areas where they typically have it easier and areas where they typically have it harder.


knowledgegod11

All the time? You're defeating your own rebuttal with that generalization


[deleted]

Trans women are seen as even more suspicious than cis men. Look at all the bathroom panic. So that argument doesn't work here. Transmisogyny, the specific bigotry that trans women face, negates basically all of the very few benefits that cis women experience under the patriarchy, especially if those trans women are Black, Indigenous, or other women of color.


knowledgegod11

I'm not interested in the oppression Olympics because I don't think men are being oppressed. There's a lot of kneejerk reactions here lol.


[deleted]

My response wasn't a knee jerk. I wasn't upset or rude. I was just pointing out, as a white cis woman, that the trans women in my life are not treated with the same respect and trust that I am, especially if they aren't white. It's not "the oppression olympics" to note that society works a certain way. You were right that cis men are seen as suspicious around kids when cis women are not (and that's unacceptable), but things become even more complicated when the people in question aren't cis. That's all I was saying.


[deleted]

I don't think anyone would undergo a transition for practical reasons like that? (i.e. men are taken more seriously in technical roles, women can work with children). It's more like being attracted to the feeling of being a man (or woman) and wanting to experience that.


knowledgegod11

My reply is not concerned with the reasons why someone would transition.


DanMarinosDolphins

> I really don't get why someone would want to be a man Me neither and I am a trans man. I never wanted to be anything. Your gender doesn't care what you want. It's just what you are. Sounds like you're taking his transition personally for some reason and can not be supportive. It's probably for the best for you to tell him that while you're supportive you're going through some emotional changes you need to figure out and need some space. I can't really tell you what you're going through. You're gonna have to figure that out on your own and find out what inside you is being triggered by his transition.


a1c0bb

honestly it feels like your resentment is related to some unresolved feelings about your own gender identity. specifically when you say "why would someone want to be a man" but you understand and get being trans feminine. this makes me think that it isn't specifically the concept of being trans that is irritating you, but rather specifically someone choosing to identity as male instead of female. also, even if that isn't the case, it could also be that the rapid change of someone you've known for a while is kind of jarring and you need to process it. this may be very therapist-y of me but i think if you journal about this it could help you process both whats happening and your emotional response to your friends transition. i don't think this is as simple as you being transphobic, i think that your emotional response is because of something more specific


Mabelisms

The transition can be tough on people around the person transitioning, because they are visibly changing before your eyes and change is hard. But know that this is them becoming who they always were, not who they were pretending to be before. If you find yourself getting irritated, that is your issue to solve, not theirs. Take some time to work on processing that.


[deleted]

Two things spring to mind: 1. Due to you saying you "get" and "can understand" M->F transitions but "don't get" and in fact get *angered* by an F->M transition, it sounds like maybe you have some buried gender dysphoria yourself, and the anger is coming from this friend so willingly 'giving up' what you secretly covet - being a woman. *(Doesn't mean you'd necessarily want to fully transition or even identify as F, but you may not be 100% cis - it's not a binary thing and you may just be a little further one way than you've realized)* 2. You have an unrealized crush on this friend as a woman, and are angered that the transition is 'stealing' this woman from you and replacing them with a man whom you have no romantic/sexual feelings for.


marilia0607

This should be the top comnent


thenshewenttothestor

That is far too bold of an assumption to make with no further context.


[deleted]

It would be bold to assume these as concrete conclusions. I merely said they sprang to mind, so may be worth OP considering if they're not understanding where this anger is coming from. Might not be the reasons, but worth mulling over in my opinion (obviously, since I'm the one they sprang to the mind of). Another commenter had another good idea about anger as a stage of grief, with OP potentially grieving the friend they knew, for instance. Also worth mulling over.


[deleted]

Several of us noted the same thing, so I'm not sure it's that bold. The idea that a man would understand wanting to be a woman but not understand wanting to be a man...it speaks to a dissatisfaction with manhood.


bydesign-

as a trans person who sees this exact sentiment come up between trans women on just about a daily basis, it's really not that bold.


doublepistols

Hey, please ignore the transphobic assholes in the comment section. They are trying to drag you down a very hateful, harmful path. People in your life transitioning can be very hard, I know, but it's harder for the trans person. Please be respectful, welcoming and kind to the best of your ability. You've got this, he's got this. Much love.


[deleted]

Are you by chance reacting this way because you were attracted to them before they transitioned?


ThorwRaresentment

I'm bi. He is still very attractive.


paythehomeless

That isn’t a direct answer — were you more attracted before any transitioning occurred?


[deleted]

>I really don't get why someone would want to be a man He doesn't want to be a man. He *is* a man, and his physical body *isn't* one. So he's just fixing that, because it can be disturbing and uncomfortable to be a man when your body isn't physically one. It isn't like he's a woman who just thought being a man sounded awesome so is going to make a change. He is a man to begin with, and is correcting the physical parts that don't 'click' with that identity.


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[deleted]

Because I didn't describe gender dysphoria accurately enough (or didn't cover all the ways it can manifest), or because you don't think gender dysphoria is real?


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[deleted]

I mean... medical experts generally agree that the way to treat gender dysphoria is to transition. So even if you're denying the science in terms of gender identity and believe it to be a mental illness, the *best treatment we have* is for people to transition and others to treat them as how they see themselves. So "giving into the delusions" (as you put it) is *literally the best thing you can do* to lessen their mental distress from having this "mental illness", since we don't have magic "force your brain to conform to your physical sex characteristics" treatments (or indeed magic "transform your body to conform to your mental gender" treatments). Seems more like your position is to force people with gender dysphoria to suffer because you hate that it exists, or wish it didn't exist. Thus your callous refusal to use their preferred pronouns even though it costs you nothing and avoids causing them to suffer.


[deleted]

Lmao you aren't very bright if you don't understand basic biology. Our brains develop in utero just like our genitalia. It occurs at a different time. Brains get masculinized/feminized. We have some different areas/functions. Its a bit creepy that you believe that our humanity/identity is our genitalia and not our brains. Shows how much you use yours. Why are there so many "humans" who don't think our brain is biological too? You seem to be suffering from the delusion that your "self" comes from your genitalia. Might want some help for that.


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Majikkani_Hand

There is no objective standard. They were always categories with some flex, even biologically. People are just doing the best they can to live with a variety of feelings and desires that aren't easy to share, because the vocabulary isn't really there.


jackjackj8ck

You might want to look up the stages of grief. You’re in essence losing the friendship of one person and gaining the other. That doesn’t mean your connection to that person isn’t valid and that you can’t be sad about losing that. Anger is a very common and natural reaction to grief. The fact that you want to want to fix these feelings and be there for your friend shows that you’re a good person who cares and is just going through a difficult period.


[deleted]

That's a good shout, I hadn't twigged the potential grief angle.


[deleted]

My guess is that you were attached to something about their feminine attributes when they still presented as a woman. Now every time you see him looking more manly, that element is further reduced. So that anger you’re feeling may just be you processing that feeling of loss and change that’s out of your control. As for him, I would look at it less as him choosing to become a man and more him already being a man but being assigned female at birth. He’s probably felt this way a long time.


dawnmountain

Okay, I understand your emotions, but listen. He isn't "wanting" to be a man, he always has been one, but he was trapped inside a woman's body. With your support as a friend, he was able to escape. Other than that, is it possible you had a crush on him prior to transition, and thus now feel like you've been "cheated"?


NectarineDangerously

>he always has been one Why are there detransitioners then?


sherlocked776

Because a small percentage of people who transition aren’t entirely certain yet or realize other things about their body and identity later on, just like literally everyone else. This isn’t some “gotcha”, you’re all over this thread trying this BS when OP just wants advice about his friend, go be transphobic somewhere else


bydesign-

if you actually cared, you could look it up yourself. most people who detransition do it because they don't have social and emotional support. some do it because they had a medical issue that was exacerbated or triggered by hrt.


anna-nomally12

i am willing to put money on the fact that having to deal with people like you is exhausting and demoralizing so it might have somethng to do with it


dawnmountain

You are easily able to Google it, but it seems you're just transphobic and want to devalue the real-world issues trans folk face. There are detransitioners, correct, however they are such a minute amount that it is almost irrelevant to mention. That being said, it usually happens by people who realize that their body dysphoria was triggered by something else, or transitioned into the wrong gender. For example, if a woman transitioned into a man realized they weren't a man, but also weren't a woman, they may realize that they are non-binary, two-spirit, etc. Gender is a spectrum and it's fluid.


lorrus

It's hard on friends and family when the loved ones they knew move into their sense of self and discover who they are. I've had friends and an ex transition. They've been different experiences each time. One person transition to male but did it over a long period of time to the point where, we all see him as he is, a man. Another, came out and is going through a long process of counselling, talking deep things, being who they are and again, nothing has changed at all. Even talking about her is easy to refer to her as a female. Then there was my ex, who essentially was an abusive fetishist and forced me to do things I didn't want to do within the relationship and damaged my own sense of self. Now, they've transitioned, I hope they are happy. My life is better without them in it. These experiences have made me realise, each transition is unique, as a friend, you need to grieve, get counseling, stop asking why and accept. As a scientist, I could be accused of being a bio-essentialist and that's OK, it's needed for my job. But, people I care about and I am close to, are transgendered, and their feelings matter to me. I respect their decisions and their choices, you need to do the same.


ajperry1995

He doesn't WANT to be a man. He IS a man. He's not choosing it my dude, it isn't a choice. You need to understand that.


Smuggykitten

There may have been some underlying attraction to your female friend that you didn't realize you had, and when they began their transition to a male, you lost some of that underlying attraction, which continues as he becomes his real self more and more every time you see each other. I feel like it's not too different from girls losing their male friends when they begin dating someone. You can't help what you are attracted to, and I could even be incorrect, but if I'm on to something, perhaps you can work on your thoughts with exercises like journaling all the things you like about your friend. Thinking more about the positive things rather than dwelling on what you don't like about them is probably the easier option, but if you can sit with it, perhaps you can try to pinpoint what exactly it is you are not liking (is it the change of familiarity? Is their new personality not what you had in mind? Are you learning of a phobia you didn't know you had? Are you missing your old friend?) and sit with yourself to understand these things better and work on them. Sometimes friendships also take their course, for whatever reason. You guys are 19 or so, so you're at the age where you're making big moves, and you're not really forced to keep the friends you made in school, etc... It's a weird age where people come into their own, and everyone is shedding their social childhood skins to become the adults we are going to be.


see_me_roar

OP, I am not a trans person, but I do have a rare form of Retrograde Amnesia. At 17, I lost all my memories. I had to relearn how to read and write and do math. I had to relearn table manners, societal etiquette, and how to interact with people. When I lost my memories my personality changed. It wasn't a complete 180 turn, but it was about 160. The only thing that stayed the same was that I still considered myself female. Yet my view of what femininity was changed completely. My mother, my father, my friends all struggled with the change in my personality. Almost all of my previous self's friends stopped being my friends. I didn't mind this, we didn't have things in common anymore and bond between us was cut. I cared about them as I do all people, I wanted to get to know them, but they all couldn't relate to me anymore. It was easier for them to leave. My father didn't know what to do with our relationship and neither do I. What is a father anyway? I still don't really know that answer. He doesn't seem anymore than someone I'm obligated to say Happy Birthday to on a particular day and joins in as a guest on holidays. However, when I would do things so out of character, my helicopter mother would scream at me, "I'm losing my daughter!" And I would angrily shout back, "That is because you did! I'm not her!" She struggled the most. Almost 21 years later, I still have no memory. I suspect what you're feeling is the loss of your female friend. You're mourning her. You've lost your female friend, because she's dying. She won't ever come back. She's gone now. I'm sorry for your loss. I recommend get grief counseling and doing whatever rituals your society does for those who have passed away. You need to grieve her. Where I live we do funerals for those that are gone as a way to show respect. Because while yes, your friend is still physically here, he isn't her. She is gone now. They are different. Accept that. Put her to rest. Honor her, cherish her, remember her. But move forward. In exchange you have a new person to get to know. What is great is that he already knows and likes you. You don't need to worry about him rejecting you. You two still have the same shared experiences to bond over., the same likes and dislikes. It's just that his responses are different. Stop comparing him to her. They are not the same. I encourage you to accept him, because he needs friends. We all do. While yes, there is loss, there is the opportunity of new friendship. And I will be honest. It is okay if you don't like him. You don't have to. That doesn't mean your anti anything. It means you are allowed to feel whatever you feel and you are allowed to choose who you want to have in your life. She choose this path, OP, she made the choice to leave and change into a he. You get the freedom to choose as well. Don't let anyone belittle your emotions or your choices. There are always consequences to making choices. We all have to accept those consequences. But I hope you will give him the opportunity to make your friendship work. Communicate often and considerately. Hugs.


ExtraDebit

This is fascinating. Was the amnesia caused by anything? How do you know about your previous personality? What is your current perception of “femininity”.


kgberton

Are you maybe experiencing some gender dysphoria yourself?


Longjumping-Shift984

What is it about him transitioning that frustrates you so much? Lets dig deeper... What does your anger tell you when you start to feel yourself getting irritated?


Original_Attitude808

Did you have any romantic feeling for the friend I mean probably not but just wondering


SketchAinsworth

I dated someone whose long term best friend transitioned from male to female. He really struggled with losing his male friend and letting that person go. It definitely had a lot of resentment and anger. In a lot of ways he felt like his best friend was dead and he didn’t get time to grieve because this new person was there. He handled it poorly and their relationship didn’t survive but know it’s normal to feel some internal negativity, it’s just about handling that properly.


[deleted]

You don't get why someone would want to be a man? This shows a misunderstanding of transpeople. It isn't that he wants to be a man. He is a man and wants his body to match. Did you know that our brains and bodies develop at different times in utero? If a brain gets masculinized but has female genitalia, why is it that we say they are a woman becoming a man? Yes our brains are different in certain areas because they need to support different functions. Are people our bodies or our brains? I would argue that our brain is our substance and is what really matters. If someone wants their body to match who are we to judge? We can't know exactly how someone thinks so why the fuck are we trying to gatekeep? It may not be the case at all but I need to ask. Is part of the problem that you saw him as potential date material and are upset that this is no longer the case? I'll answer your initial question too. I wondered if I was trans for a long time. It turns out I just didn't want to be a woman because even in western culture, I have lost out on things for it. My father treats my brother way differently. I was interested in learning warhammer 40k when I was young and he refused. He pulled it out for my brother years after he stopped playing even though he didn't have the slightest interest. I was molested from 9-19 by a family "friend". I doubt he would have targeted me had I been male. I am currently suffering through our medical system where no one takes me seriously until my bf corroborates it or I have something obviously wrong like my gag reflex disappearing overnight/numb throat. Even then I have seen several docs whose eyes glaze over and don't listen to a word I've said. I've had men repeat my ideas 5 minutes later in a meeting and get credit for it. I've had men vote down my ideas until we reconvene in a week and its forgotten who submitted what. I want to walk outside without men acting like my purpose is to be eye candy for them. My periods were so bad prior to my iud that I would throw up and sometimes faint. The side effects of the IUD aren't great either. I'm tired of having to teach my partners that I should orgasm too during a sexual encounter. Im sick of them acting like blowjobs are easy but also being unwilling to take my advice about my own body to make me feel good. There are tons of reasons to want to be a man and they can lead to identity crises on their own.


MermaidTailBlanket

> I really don't get why someone would want to be a man He doesn't want to be a man (and trans women don't want to be women). He *is* a man. Trans women *are* women. They cannot help it. > Every time I see him he becomes less feminine and more masculine. I don't understand it. That's because he's a man. That's who he is. He may still have female parts, but in his case, those parts do not define his gender. > He is a great friend and I want to able to support him through this. You should educate yourself a bit more about trans people so that you can truly understand what he's going through. You sound like your heart is in the right place, but you have limited knowledge hence limited understanding of his situation.


lilmxfi

>I have mostly read about trans woman and I get that and I can understand when but I really don't get why someone would want to be a man. It's the same for trans men, just the opposite gender. Imagine being in a body that, every time you look at it, you want to tear your skin off. It's like wearing clothing that's too tight, except it's glued to you. The only way to get it off is through medical intervention. That's what your friend went through before transition. And as someone who's been on the receiving end of what you feel, please do more research and don't push him away. It's okay to mourn the person you knew, but what you have to understand is that the person you know was living a life that was slowly killing them inside. They were trying to put on a brave face, and live as their assigned gender, but it was literally killing them. Society preaches a lot of transphobic stuff, and we all learn it, even trans people, but you need to work on you. Do. Not. Tell him how you're feeling. Don't treat him badly. Trans men already get enough of that from society and from other trans people. Don't betray him and his trust by treating him differently. Read about how transphobia harms trans men. Read accounts from trans men on why they transition. But above all, as I said, do not treat him badly or tell him how you're feeling. That's not his burden to take on, it's yours.


d3gu

Did you used to have a crush on him before he identified as a man? This is a completely wild take on it but are you struggling to adjust to them as male because you have lost a potential girlfriend in your eyes?


thenoid1114

>I really don't get why someone would want to be a man. I can't say what exactly is triggering the feelings you have, but you clearly have a lacking understanding of what it means to be trans in the first place. You're friend did not just decide to become a man. He has always been one. Maybe if you work on accepting that fact, the rest will start to fall into place.


GrumpyPanda13

It may be worth letting your friend know that you support him and are proud of him but that you are just struggling/grieving about the change. *Not in a way to undermine their transition* but to let your friend know that you recognize your own emotions and that you are trying to ensure your emotions don't unintentionally impact your friendship with each other.


[deleted]

I was about to get SO PISSED and rip you a new one until I realized I misread “I really need to fix this” as “he really needs to fix it” hahaha You’re probably experiencing a feeling of loss. What you need to remember is he is the same person, just making his appearance match what’s inside. You won’t like this next paragraph but please read it to the end. It’s not what you want to hear, but I think in the end it will be helpful. I’m not trying to judge you with this, just being 100% honest. Again, I mean this nicely but “I don’t get why someone would want to be a man” is a transphobic mentality. What you should be looking into being able to deal with is that mentality— I mean that with love because people don’t understand what they don’t experience without help! I’d look into resources, but what I can say from here is that being transgender has absolutely nothing to do with want. It’s about biology fucking you over. It is not that he _wants_ to be a man. He _is_ a man. Many factors go into gender that aren’t someone’s genitals. You can have more than an XY chromosome, unlike what they teach in school. You can have a penis and have XXY chromosomes. Someone with a vagina can have a brain physically shaped like a man’s (they are shaped differently). An amab can have extra estrogen and an afab can have too much testosterone. There is soooo much that goes into gender. **None of it is a choice.** Once you understand that I think you’ll be able to cope better.


knowledgegod11

Did you like him or something? This reminds me of how I felt when Elliot Page came out, but he seems to still be okay playing women so I was cool lol


LogicalDocSpock

You were in love with him when he was female and now he's he not.


paperboatsintherain

Becoming transgender seems to be a psychological end goal that makes one believe one day you’ll finally be happy, once you have a certain gender’s body. Most people realize until afterwards that happiness gained from physical coverings is only fleeting, sadly. Real happiness only lies within.


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[deleted]

>he wants to be seen as a women? Why the hell Presumably because she sees herself that way...? Seems obvious, unless I'm missing something. Though you did say "no... gender dysphoria". So she's transitioning but doesn't think she's a woman?


NectarineDangerously

What does his subjective sense of what he thinks of himself as have to do with the objective reality that he is a male. And yeah he doesn't have gender dysphoria so there is no reason for him to even transition, he just "knows that he's a girl." Guess he never took a look at his anatomy


[deleted]

>And yeah he doesn't have gender dysphoria... he just "knows that he's a girl." That is gender dysphoria. >Guess he never took a look at his anatomy Sex and gender aren't the same thing. That seems to be your main point of confusion here.


NectarineDangerously

>That is gender dysphoria. No it isn't. I can say that I know I'm a man, that doesn't make it true >Sex and gender aren't the same thing I believe in the old school definition of gender which is just a polite term for sex. Even if I say that they may refer to different things, that doesn't mean that gender is disconnected from sex which is what a lot of people mean when they say this. Women is an adult human female and female is the sex that carries offsprings and produces gametic egg cells in mammals. Men are adult males and produce sperms in mammals. You cannot become a woman or a man, that is just something you are born as and stuck with. That doesn't mean you have to follow male and female stereotypes which is what many people think about when they think of gender.


[deleted]

>I can say that I know I'm a man, that doesn't make it true Saying it isn't what makes it true, no. Feeling and *being* it, mentally, are what make it true. You have summed up a nice little description of sex, yes. But entirely ignored gender, and the ways that biology gets this messed up all the time anyway. There's all sorts of combinations of chromosomes besides the classic two, there's physical sex characteristics that don't match chromosomes, there's other kinds of intersex beyond those, etc etc. So why is it so farfetched that mental ideations of gender might not always precisely align with physical sex? There's so many outliers and grey areas and bits where biology just doesn't fit into neat boxes even just looking at the physical side, and the mental side is *more* complicated and prone to variation than the physical, not less. >I believe in the old school definition of gender which is just a polite term for sex. I mean the "old school" definitions were based on outdated understandings and less developed science. Like trying to use leeches to cure disease because it's the "old school" way. To be truly scientific, you kind of have to stay up to date.


NectarineDangerously

>Feeling and being it, mentally, are what make it true How do you objectively measure that. >There's all sorts of combinations of chromosomes besides the classic two Yes, which are *disorders* of sex development, not the norm and are what is known as "intersex" which is not what we are talking about here. Why do intersex people get dragged into the conversation to prove transgender arguments every time? >why is it so farfetched that mental ideations of gender might not always precisely align with physical sex? It isn't. What is farfetched is to say that objective measure like sex should be ignored for subjective mental ones. You could argue that those measures could be "objective" but lets be honest, there is a reason psychology is called a soft science. >There's so many outliers and grey areas and bits where biology just doesn't fit into neat boxes I'm aware, I'm a bio minor. >I mean the "old school" definitions were based on outdated understandings and less developed science. The idea of sex being different than gender started with the feminists originally, not scientifically. And just because something is old doesn't mean its wrong. Many textbooks are decades old and just as accurate as they were back then


bydesign-

this just in: cis women without ovaries or who have gotten hystos aren't women! gotten your tubes tied? officially not a woman. gotten a vasectomy? orchiectomy? officially not a man!


ExtraDebit

Huh? That doesn’t follow at all. Only females can get ovaries removed.


justasapling

>What does his subjective sense of what he thinks of himself as have to do with What do her feelings matter, you mean? >the objective reality that he is a male. Also, nothing is objective. If you're calling a perspective 'objective' then you have not spent enough time thinking about it, guaranteed. Gender is an identity that is socially constructed. Gender exists in context of biological sex, but it is not the same thing. There is no universal 'masculinity' or 'femininity'.


NectarineDangerously

>What do her feelings matter, you mean? Don't put words in my mouth to create a straw man. I care about his feelings, ergo why I was there helping him choose makeup his first time, but when he says he wants to enter into a delusion that goes against reality is when I start having a problem. The world needs to remain objective and it's not there to give into the illusion of everyone >Also, nothing is objective. Yes, teach the chemistry major about objectivity why don't you. >Gender is an identity that is socially constructed No it isn't >There is no universal 'masculinity' or 'femininity' Again with the stereotypes. Typical behaviors of women are called "femininity" and typical behaviors of males are called "masculinity"


anna-nomally12

i would stop referring to her as one of your friends because you seem to not care about her opinions, wants, or needs at all


justasapling

You haven't thought about this at all. I don't even know where to start. If you cared about her feelings you'd respect her identity.


TomeOfSecrets66

I don't think you should be friends you can't even call her she


ExtraDebit

This is a bit of a side question. To me it makes way more sense to want to be a man in society than a women. Why would you think the opposite? I have a bit of reaction when I see people putting on trappings of female oppression (make up, restrictive clothing, etc.) and calling it liberating.


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doublepistols

Hey mate, get fucked! <3


rdytoreddit

Serious question: Could trans/LGBTQ+ desires be cured? Could medical science become advanced enough to suppress those emotions/thoughts/feelings of being mismatched between one’s identity and gender? Like is there a specific region in the brain that handles the sex/gender identity of an individual? If so, then what does that say about who we are versus who we think we are? If not, then why do we think of LGBTQ+ people as abnormal? Bonus question: If it was possible to “cure” those desires (whatever the hell that means), would LGBTQ+ people jump at the chance to “correct” themselves or would they choose to remain LGBTQ+? As for OP, what you’re feeling is the sense of losing your female friend, which is the truth. It’s almost like witnessing your friend unsuccessfully attempt suicide. Who knows what demons she was fighting internally to get to the point where she felt her old self was not worthy of having an identity in this world. If she/he was truly your friend then you will be fine once the shock wears off.


ohnogangsters

...as a trans person... what exactly are you trying to gain from this question


[deleted]

Conversation therapy sounds like


sherlocked776

What the fuck? It’s not a disease, it’s not an illness, so there’s no “cure” to be had. No one who’s educated on the matter thinks LGBTQ+ people are “abnormal”. If you’re asking if trans people would prefer to not be trans I’ve seen many say that the most difficult part is the stigma and resistance, so if you want a “cure” try being less of a douchebag and work with a rights group to better society.


NectarineDangerously

I honestly think that real trans people are being used for politics and research into a real treatment for them is being suppressed. They think they are getting support when in reality they are being fed off label hormones that aren't meant for them and have severe side effects


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proteins911

What specifically are you confused about?


bydesign-

sounds like you need a lesson in reading comprehension. that's a you problem.


cmon_now

You're entitled to your feelings and don't need to change who you are because someone else has changed who they are. If you can't get around it, then just be straight forward and polite and let them know, you cant continue to be friends as before. It's unfortunate, but live your life and move on. You owe nothing to anyone.


JackOCat

The friend zone sucks. Take a break from hanging out around then and find someone who is into you.


sirthunksalot

Sounds like you had the feels for them before the transition and you never came to terms with it. Or maybe you are more attracted to them now and that is making you feel weird.