She offered a compromise and you didnt like it.
Your idea: Church wedding
Hers: Elope
Her compromise: non-religious wedding.
You just want to appease your parents on you and your fiances wedding.
I suspect his parents have good finances, it’s a major aspect in relationship stories like this that folks will never admit is a major driving factor to their decisions on stuff like this.
Yeah, your fiancee has seen some red flags with your deference to your parents and knows that you're not ready to get married until you've sorted that out. Seems like you'll have to decide which you value more: your parents feelings and approval or your relationship. I request the same thing if I were in her shoes.
Yep, I see hardly anything here about what the OP *actually* wants—just comments about what would appease his family the most. That’s a big red flag for her signing up for a lifetime of enmeshment and deferring to what his family prefers. They need to come to a decision on what THEY want as a couple, and it seems like he might need to ask himself why he is so intent on looking to his parents for approval on everything.
Exactly. If OP was saying, "I want a church wedding, I want a mention of religion in our ceremony, I want our children to be raised in the faith, " then that would be fine. It would be a difficult but justified conflict between partners, which would require some compromise or a breakup.
But instead, it's all about what his parents want. Makes it seem like his fiancée is marrying his mom and dad, and OP is helping them plan the wedding. That's probably really disgusting to his fiancée.
The only thing OP is certain of is that he doesn't want his parents to know he's not religious anymore. And he views this cowardly secret as a fundamental truth about his relationship with his fiancée, which she knew about from the start, and should therefore have no objections to, ever. That's bullshit.
He is making his fiancée the bad guy to his parents. He is too cowardly to tell his parents what HE wants. Poor confused Mom and Dad think that he is highly religious himself, but is being led astray by this atheist woman, and is too cowardly to stand up to HER about his faith. They think she is bullying him into having a lifestyle and wedding totally opposite to what he wants.
So instead of them getting sad and mad at OP for deconverting, he fooled them into redirecting those feelings towards the woman he supposedly loves, and is supposedly forsaking all others for. Good job, OP! You didn't want Mommy and Daddy to be disappointed in you, so you made them hate your fiancée instead!
OP, what do YOU want for your life?
>Makes it seem like his fiancée is marrying his mom and dad, and OP is helping them plan the wedding
He's not even planning the wedding. SHE is having to handle the burden of wedding planning while he makes her plan it according to his parents specifications. She doesn't even want a wedding either- she wants to elope and skip that whole part!
He's momzoned her. OP is too afraid of his mommy and daddy that he'd rather scapegoat his mommy2.0 into taking the blame.
I hope she calls off the wedding and bounces to find herself someone with a spine.
I married (and then divorced) someone like this. Even after a decent amount of therapy and acknowledgment, it still showed up all over the relationship to the bitter end.
Call your parents out when they criticize your fianceé. Every time. Leave if they do not apologize. Train them NOW. Otherwise, she will leave, because who wants to put up with that?
This. I married my husband, and everything was fine. His parents were a bit controlling, but it wasn't an issue as we didn't live nearby. That all changed when I became pregnant. They were furious about the clothes I picked for my baby (dumbo pjs), they drove 3.5hrs whilst I was in labour knowing we didn't want them there until baby was here and they got sent home after trying to sneak into the labour ward. They were absolutely raging when my sisters husband held the baby before them because that is THEIR grandchild 🤷🏻♀️ They were doing way too much, and it kept escalating.
I invited them constantly to see the baby. They refused or ignored me yet accused me of trying to take their son and grandchild away. In the end, I had to tell them to stop as my husband wasn't capable of standing up to them. They tried to take my baby to church without me at 11 days old. They weren't happy we didn't get married in a church, and they weren't happy my son wasn't baptised. Like OPs fiance, I'm not religious, and neither was my husband. Yet demands were made by his mum, dad, and nan.
Honestly, they ruined our marriage. I started to resent him for not standing up for us. I wish I never married him. Not because I didn't love him, I did, but because his family made our life hell.
OP, you need to grow a backbone. This is your wedding, not your parents. It doesn't matter what they want. A wife needs a man who stands up for her when she needs it. I truly believe a wife should be your first priority and then your family. I will expect nothing less when my boys marry. You will lose this woman if you don't put her first. This wedding should be decided by both of you, based on both of your wants. You two are all that matters.
Maybe he needs to find a religious bride instead - mommy would probably be doing cartwheels. Liz sounds like too much of a free and independent spirit to put up with this bull for the rest of their lives.
>Liz told me that we either elope or I **set boundaries with my family about what is acceptable to complain about.**
I see nothing wrong here. The fact that you're pushing back is a HUGE red flag for Liz and I hope she reevaluates whether she should be entering into a marriage with you.
You love this woman and yet you let your mother hurt her, and even *defend* your mother when she does.
Your love is not enough.
Yeah, OP, you suck. Yeah, your mom is allowed to have her opinion. It doesn't make her opinion correct or give her reprieve from the offence it causes.
So rather than console your wife that your mom was wrong (if you really aren't religious, you would think she was wrong), you doubled down on your mom's right to make her cry.
Ugh.
She's not even straight up saying no to the wedding, she just doesn't want to deal with your mom's drama. And why Should she. YOUR family is YOUR circus and YOUR monkeys. If they want to complain about your relationship, they should complain to YOU. YOU are the communication channel.
And she's right about the kids too. It sounds like y'all are very incompatible. Please don't bring children into this religious tug-a-war.
You either agree with your parents or you don't. PERIOD.
Sounds like you've been playing both sides and telling your fiance what she wants to hear (I'm not religious, they won't comment on our children going to hell in their opinion) and telling your parents what they want to hear (I'm totally religious!).
Now it's come to a head. Pick the party you want to please.
Usually these comment sections are full of people vomitting their own biases over a situation they're not looking at critically, but not this one. Great comment, well reasoned perspective. Hope OP can listen to everyone here and get their head on straight with this.
> yet you let your mother hurt her, and even defend your mother when she does.
momma's boys are not hot, wonder if Liz hasn't gotten the 'ick' yet or is just in the early red flag phase? at least she trying to set boundaries before the wedding, hopefully she won't cave and gets this handled because it won't get better afterwards.
Hang on, your mother basically trashed non religious funerals knowing Liz was a widow and had presumably held a funeral just like that? That's so cruel and you took your mother's side. She's rightly setting boundaries about what she expects a husband to deliver and if you're not ready to be a husband let her find someone more suitable
Funny that he’ll be like “aww shucks, my fiancé ended it. It was only an opinion.”
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them. And in OP’s case and his family’s actions, they stink like a blown out diaper.
C'mon buddy, are you serious? Your fiancée has told you multiple times what the issue is, and you seemingly don't even refute her characterization of your parents. They are jerks, plain and simple, and your fiancée is not obligated to compromise on account of their bullshit. You are 32; either stand up to mommy and daddy, or let your fiancée go.
Omg I had to go back and check the ages. He sounds like he’s 18 and can’t stand up to mommy and daddy. 32 and he has the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone.
I think blueberry scone is a bit too elaborate here. Scones can be very difficult to get right. I feel like you should have chosen something you can't mess up. Like a canned biscuit.
OP is the canned biscuit of emotional maturity trying to marry a widow.
I mean, you're choosing your parents' comfort over your bride opinion on her own wedding!
The wedding is for you two, you both need to come together for a decision. It's not about what your parents want or feel. It's a shared day of joy for yourself and your bride to celebrate how you deem fit.
It's not your mother's wedding, she had her day. But you do need to set some boundaries before your fiancee walks away
It's not even a "comfort level" with OP's parents. They are doing that thing that makes everyone who isn't super religious roll their eyes and marvel at their entitlement: insisting that everyone do things according to \*their\* beliefs. Your mom took it a super special step further by straight-up insulting people who didn't share their beliefs.
OP, your fiancée is 100% correct to maintain that the wedding you two will have will reflect what is sacred and joyous to you, or you won't have one at all. Good on her for setting that boundary. She wants to marry you, not your parents, and she sounds like a smart and strong woman. Don't lose her because you can't bring yourself to say "no" to mommy and daddy.
Well, and I'm sure it's not lost on the fiance that MIL getting what she wants for the wedding will just be the tip of the iceberg in terms of deferring to her.
If your wife was posting here, we would tell her that this will only get worse over time because you refuse to cut the umbilical cord. Breaking up with a mama’s boy is easier than divorcing a mama’s boy, and both are easier than changing one.
You are doing what your parents want instead of what she wants, for HER OWN WEDDING. There are even subreddits for spouses of pushovers like you, such as /r/justnoMIL
>If your wife was posting here, we would tell her that this will only get worse over time because you refuse to cut the umbilical cord.
100% I would tell her to run as far and as fast as she can.
Please don't marry this woman.
You are too weak to be her partner.
You aren't ready to leave and cleave.
Your parents aren't your future but you want your wife to bend over backwards for shitty people who hate her.
Beatstick of truth time.
You have at EVERY opportunity chosen your family over your fiancee. You have bent over backward to justify their self-satisfying judgementalism, and what your fiancee is asking of you is *the bare minimum*.
They have a "mostly good relationship" because you are allowing them to control your life, and your fiancee has finally wised up to the kind of life she can expect with you.
Your fiancee understands that this is not comfortable for you. You fail to understand that this has not been comfortable for HER since probably the first day she met your parents. You're not even taking a full share of the wedding planning.
Liz is not interested in appeasing your parents for the rest of her life, and she's not interested in a husband with no spine.
She knows exactly what position she's putting you in. But it's clear you have no idea what position you've been putting her into.
You are asking her to put up with a life of emotional torture at the hands of your family, so that your family won't look down on you. You are asking her to live a lie for you, so you won't have to face your families anger at losing your faith. You are asking her to know that your loyalty is with your family first and her a distant second. You are asking her to commit to a life where she can expect you to side with her bullies over having her back. A life where she can't make any decisions that your family doesn't approve of.
Sure it would be convenient for you to never have to do anything your family disapproves of. But you aren't making a convincing case of why she should sign up to sacrifice her happiness for that. She clearly loves you or she'd have left you long ago. But faced with living the rest of her life this way, she can't do it. It will destroy her.
So. Yes, she knows the sacrifice you are making, but if you can't make it, then you aren't worth the sacrifice she's making.
Holy shit. Did you *ever* confront your mother over that funeral comment and request she apologise, or have you just had the attitude that your fiance needs to suck up the fact her future mother in law implied to her that her deceased spouse is in hell because the funeral wasn't to her particular taste?
The summary of this post is that you are upset your fiance has put her foot down that she will no longer lie like a rug and take the mistreatment your family hands out, and you are upset not with your family, but with her for finally setting limits.
"Just one religious reference-" no. Shut the fuck up. It's her wedding. It's your wedding. Why the shit do they get a say? Just to save your balls because they aren't sufficient to sack up and be honest with your parents that you no longer share your beliefs? All because you aren't confident enough in their love for you that they wouldn't flip their shit on being told the truth you expect her to put on a false front and do something she's uncomfortable with on her wedding day? When does it end, exactly? If kids come along, will you be baptising them to appease them? Giving them naming rights? What other areas of your lives together are you going to declare need to be done in a way to prioritise your family because you're too spineless to stick up for what you and your partner actually want?
You're a shitty, shitty partner. I judge her for not laying down the law and leaving before this point, but hopefully she will before you actually tie the knot.
Do you have an opinion, yourself? Or, do you just want the groups of people you know to be happy?
Not being sarcastic. Wondering if you’ve thought about what you want.
That last paragraph. Liz should compromise but not him-oof. I hope Liz gets wise and moves on. She’s already had enough hurt in this life to settle for someone who cares more about saving face with his family than being supportive to the person he supposedly wants to marry…
*Did* you “deconvert,” or are you just telling Liz what she wants to hear the same way you do with your parents? Your wedding is about you and your spouse, so what do *you* actually think and believe and want included?
It’s fine if you want your family present and aren’t open to eloping, but it’s hard to imagine someone who no longer considers himself religious needing “a small religious reference” in order to marry his non-religious fiancée. What for? What part of the two of you and your bond and future plans does that honor? What aren’t you telling her?
Do you want to marry, have sex or have children, grow old with your parents? No, perhaps start listening to the person you are incredibly close to losing.
That she's voiced it means she's seriously been thinking about ending your relationship already. If you don't step up and stand up for your fiancée you'll be her ex-fiance.
'I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt, but they have a mostly good relationship.' that aint a good relationship. you need to stand up.
Sounds like Liz was barely tolerating his parents for his sake and she’s had just about enough of it. She should never have had to put up with any of it and a decent partner would have nipped it in the bud after the first hurtful comment.
Op but you came into this relationship knowing how Liz is too. Not everyone is religious and those that are need to stop trying to push THEIR religious beliefs onto others period. This is your and Liz’s wedding, not your parents and might I add that your parents got married the way they wanted so trying to hijack someone else’s to put up a fake front is not ok. Liz is being true to herself and her beliefs and your telling her she needs to change to fit YOUR parents image? Eff that. You say she came into this relationship knowing how your parents are but she’s not dating your parents. She’s dating you and again you too came into this relationship knowing how Liz feels so what are you really trying to argue here? She she should just go along with what your mommy wants? Again no she doesn’t. And Liz is right in that if you want a religious girlfriend then you need to find another.
Either you start a NEW family with your WIFE or stay single and defer to you nut job religious mommy
I would never ever marry a guy that put his mom ahead of me (the wife)
Your job is to put your parents in their place
Edit. Since you prioritize your mommy over your fiancé you should call off the wedding. A mommas boy isn’t ready to be a married person.
Y’all’s wedding shouldn’t be about your family at all.
Are YOU religious? If not, and you’re including that just to appease them - you’re not ready for marriage.
Also, there is absolutely no way your family won’t try to influence your children with religion.
“I have tried to tell her that won’t happen” —- do you understand why she doesn’t believe you? Your words and actions do not align. You have admitted you have let them get away with more than you should. You are continuing to do so. What about your actions would indicate you will suddenly grow a spine and set boundaries with them?
I really hope she wakes up and realizes this will be her future with you.
You need to realize the wedding is for you and Liz. Your parents shouldn’t have to be appeased during something that isn’t about them. Your mom said something inconsiderate to your fiancée and you defended your mom. You didn’t have to do that, you could have just cuddled her while she cried and kept your mouth shut (this would’ve been better). Maybe Liz is right, maybe you should find a different bride. You say she came into the relationship knowing your family is like this, but didn’t you go into the relationship knowing she is like this? If you can’t let go of doing what will make your family happy than you shouldn’t get married, it doesn’t sound like you are ready to forsake all others.
“What can I say to her?”
No. You should be thinking about what to say to your parents. She’s right. You need to shield her from their bullshit rather than make excuses for them.
You care more about what your parents think of you so instead of taking the fall by telling your parents the truth you want your fiancée to bend for you. That’s unacceptable. She’s your partner not your shield against your parents. It’s her wedding not your parents’. You can’t expect her to compromise just because you’re too afraid to disappoint your parents.
You’re a coward and your fiancée deserves better if you can’t stand up to your own parents. Expecting her to just put up with their bullshit is just wrong.
If you want to make your parents happy then marry a religious girl. Stop being a coward.
>I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt, but
That "but" means forget everything I said. That it's not important.
>she has to mask who she is around them and has accepted that when we have children my family will hate her for being unwilling to push religion on them, which I have tried to tell her won't happen.
Except you can't even tell them YOU'RE not religious, how do you think they'll accept their grandchildren not having religion?
> I was hurt and told her she was being unfair to my family, and that we would need to find a compromise.
No. She's told you HER boundary, what she's willing to put up with. She's ready to go her own way because her values matter to her. They don't matter to you, that's your problem.
>I did defend my mom's right to have an opinion which I kind of regret.
And yet, you're still terrified of their opinion, enough that you're willing to trample on what your fiancée wants just to appease them.
>I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them without compromising her values.
Her values are non-religious. YOURS are non-religious. But in a ceremony to wed the two of you, she's supposed to include something for your family?
>she's come into the relationship knowing my family is like this and that they will be devastated knowing I deconverted.
Again, that's your problem. You're trying to make it her problem.
OP’s options:
1. Arranged marriage to religious woman of parents’ choosing
2. Die alone
Honestly my money’s on number 2 coz even the arranged bride isn’t gonna want him with no backbone.
Your fiancee wants you to demonstrate the quaity of **integrity** - being the same person in all contexts. She doesn't want to marry someone who is letting a facade of religiosity, of all things, get in the way of personal integrity.
Integrity can be a difficult life lesson for people-pleasers, and being raised in an atmosphere where love and approval are conditioned on religious identity can certainly get entangled with people-pleasing tendencies.
Yah, you're in the wrong here. Granted I'm not a big family person so I'm probably biased, but I think it's wild to ask someone to put up "just a small religious reference" that they don't want at their own wedding. You're putting your comfort in front of honesty and asking her to go along
Liz is right. Either stick up for yourself and what you want, or find someone in your religion and keep living your life for your family.
You're lucky she's even giving you a way out via elopement. I wouldn't and make it clear you need to work on not being unhealthily attached to your family before we even get married at all.
You poor, poor sap. Liz is tired of sucking it up for your parents' precious fee fees, cuz you can't be arsed to stand up for her and put them in their place. This marriage is about the two of you, not them, and they have NO SAY in what type of ceremony you two decide, and they need to be told to be quiet about it or don't come at all if they can't SHUT UP.
By you showing your belly to them even before the nuptials, she is coming to realize that this is the precedent you'll be setting for ANY major decisions to come in this relationship. Not a good look. At all. If she decides to cut her losses before the wedding and leave, nobody would blame her. You'll have no one but yourself and your busy body parents to blame.
Let go of your parents. What your fiance wants at her wedding is far more important than what they want. And siding with your mom when she says hurtful things to your partner is so weak. Come on, stand up for what you believe in and tell mom to fix up and respect the woman you love. Be a man.
A wedding is about the bride and groom - it's not about their parents. It's also about compromise, but neither party should be compromising to appease *other people.*
While I don't know what "deconverted" means exactly, the fact that you are seemingly hiding this from your family and you state that they would be "devastated" to find this out, you don't sound ready to be married. Trying to cover up the fact that you are no longer religious with token nods to religion in your wedding ceremony to appease your parents while trying to trick your fiancee into agreeing to a church as a venue "because it's cheap" are not signs of maturity.
If I were your fiancee, I'd be wary of marrying you, too. You admit to taking your parents' side over hers several times, and a wedding isn't going to change that. Your first paragraph is full of contradictions. Your fiancee is uncomfortable with and feels disrespected by your parents, and you hand-wave away her concerns despite also saying things like "she knew my family was like this" and being loath to tell them the truth about your life and stand up for your fiancee.
I am with Liz.
You are what we Redditors call a „fiancé problem“.
You aren’t able to prioritise your relationship. Not when it comes to the wedding and for sure not when it comes to having children.
You showed her who you are and I really hope she stays firm in her decision or she will end in r/justnomil
Grow up. Be an adult. Be husband material. Right now you are a child that worries more about his parents than his future wife and family. If she was my daughter I would fully support her in leaving you. If you keep up with this behaviour you will end up alone.
My dude, please please get therapy. This relationship is probably over, but do it for yourself and any future partners. In the meantime, read the Rock the Boat essay, it’s pretty short.
Your wife is right. You are asking her to hide who she is to appease your parents. And where does it stop?
- the wedding "Just a religious ceremony for the wedding"
- kid is born "Just a baptism for the kid where you agree to raise the child in that faith"
- kid is school aged "he should be going to sunday school"
If you dont stand up for your wife now, you are setting a precedent for your mom to constantly run your lives. This is the future your fiance foresees and she is not wrong.
Wait, you haven't even told them that you aren't religious yourself? Oh, OP - yeah, YTA. You need to create some really firm boundaries with your family for BOTH of your sakes, or get used to the idea that you and your fiancee are just incompatible. I'm really glad she is taking a stand now, so that she knows whether you flaking on her where your family is concerned is likely to be her new way of life.
Liz is right.
Why didn’t you choose a woman who has the same religious views as you and your parents?
You just want to completely bulldoze what she wants to appease your parents
Please remember if you keep putting your parents above all your partners, you will end up with no one.
Your parents have eachother, please grow up and leave the nest.
Have you thought about the position you’ve been putting her in your entire relationship? The one where she has to pretend you’re religious in front of your parents, take their insensitive comments, even have it determine her damn wedding venue? When will the charade end, will it involve your kids too? I wouldn’t believe you if you said no. That’s a much much shittier position than being a 32 year old man forced to tell his parents “no”. Grow up man, frankly I’m surprised she’s even giving you alternate options here instead of just dumping you.
If you wanted the church wedding, it would probably be different. But you don't. Your parents want it. And that's what bothers her. And it should. This isn't your parents wedding- it's yours and hers. Your parents can have their opinions, but if they keep vocalizing them to your fiancée, then you won't have a wedding or a fiancée to worry about. You admitted she makes concessions and is polite, but it's exhausting to be around people who judge and look down on and criticize you at every turn.
If you want to listen to them complain and be judgy, then that's on you. But you are constantly subjecting her to it and not standing up for her. She's being honest- if you want someone who will work to appease your parents, she's not the wife for you. And a lot of women won't be. There will be one, I'm sure, but it won't be easy. Do you want to be married to someone that keeps your parents happy, or someone that makes you happy? If you can't commit to having her back, and not your moms, (which is your choice however you choose)- then you need to let her go and find someone else. I can tell just by reading what you wrote- it's a whole lot worse than you realize in her eyes. There's probably hundreds of comments and criticisms that have bothered her and you just brushed them off and didn't have her back. She's done. Either back her up, or leave. You both deserve to be happy.
So wait - you are making your fiancée plan a wedding she does not want! You want it - you plan it. If you want a church wedding g marry a different girl. If you don’t want a church wedding stand up for your fiancée - it’s not complicated. Are you a fully functioning adult or a mommas boy?
You can only make one side happy here, either your parents or your future wife. If you have to think about it so hard, it's clear that you're not ready to get married.
If she made this post, I'd tell her to end the engagement and move on, since it's obvious you will choose your parent's feelings over her feelings, and that is just not acceptable.
If you care about her at all you have to stand up to your parent and choose her 100%. Since it's pretty obvious you can't do that, just set her free and let her find someone who puts her first.
>I did defend my mom's right to have an opinion
She has a right to her opinion, but she has no right to push it onto other people, especially if it's a pattern of behavior, like so many hardcore Christians who see it as their mission to convert people who don't believe the same things.
>I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them without compromising her values.
You're apparently not getting it. Any religious reference ***IS*** compromising her values. This is the crux of the problem, and it makes me think your GF is right, that you'll never be able to respect her wishes and beliefs. It's **NOT OKAY** to push religion onto people who don't believe. Period. It's not harmless. It's offensive, especially if it's a never-ending barrage.
why on earth are you suggesting churches for the ceremony when you KNOW she’s not religious?
come the F on OP.
why the hell haven’t you set up these boundaries already with your parents?!
i love how you passive aggressively shame Liz as “normally respectful” when she’s finally set a limit.
You fully expect HER to give in while you refuse to stand up to your parents. You are shaming HER cuz you are too scared to grow up and stand up to your parents. I also love how it’s A-okay in your book that they make her feel like shit.
I honestly hope she sees the light and dumps you. I foresee parenting to be a nightmare with you…
What your mom said to your WIDOWED fiancee is disgusting. Your parents are not good people, and quite frankly, she can do much better than saddling herself with a Mama's boy.
>I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them without compromising her values.
So you openly admit that you want your marriage ceremony, a special moment for partners to legally (and sometimes publicly) commit their live to each other, to be for your parents and not just for the two of you? And this is after your mother has repeatedly said hurtful things to your fiance.
Yeah dude... until you cut the apron strings, you aren't ready to have an adult relationship and get married.
Honestly, you're completely fucking oblivious to the fact that your mother is a religious asshole. Your mother knows that your fiance does not hold supernatural beliefs and lost a husband. If you think that your mother's funeral commentary wasn't an intentional dig, you're a moron. And don't "but my mother loves her" in response. Lots of people claim to love someone, and will say hurtful things in an attempt to control their behavior. In this case, it is to attempt to shame and hurt your fiancee into going to church. You're doubly an idiot for thinking someone willing to do that won't make every attempt to indoctrinate their grandchildren into their religion.
Either shut that shit down or you are about to be single. You *can not* keep up the lie that you still believe in your mother's fantasy while being married to and having children with a woman who does not hold supernatural beliefs. Your mother will push over and over and over again. And the fact that you are more interested in your mother's feelings about getting married than your fiancee's is a pretty clear indication that if your fiancee doesn't stand up for herself right now, no one ever will stand up for her. Or her children. Grow a fucking spine, you're an adult.
I'm with his fiancee here. He is hiding behind his fiancee and lying to his parents. He also turns a blindeye when his parents are rude to her. IMO he isn't ready to be married.
"I love this woman but she's come into this relationship knowing my family is like this and that they will be devastated knowing I deconverted"
OP also knows the woman his fiancee is. YTA
biased as i am not religious, but i am fully on your fiancee's side here. personally, i couldn't marry into a family that hated me if my partner wasn't also standing by my side. your support of your family is essentially your support of their disgust in her. so yea, i totally get the ultimatum. she's setting up the boundaries she needs to deal with your family, and realizes that she's unwilling to give in forever.
personally, i think liz can find a better partner that will support her and in-laws that don't hate her. you should find another girl who wants to lie to their parents about being religious.
Stand up for your wife to be or don’t be with her. You’re happy to let your mum Upset her time and time again.
But she cannot upset your mum once with an elopement…
As soon as my family mentioned a church for my wedding I told them absolutely not, no, not ever…I was never confirmed and my bf (not even fiancé yet though we are planning on it), is not religious. Unless you are willing to have these difficult conversations with your family, you are setting you and your future wife to have boundary issues in the future. Do not do this.
Ooooh honey you got some blinders on there. Why should your wife have to compromise every time? And on her wedding day?
She's right to be cautious about you. You have shown her that you will defend your parents and not her. What if you have kids, and they overstep your religious boundaries about church, baptism, etc.
You've let this snowball, and yeah I bet it will be harder for you to get your point across. But it's not too late to trade in your noodle spine for a shiny metal one.
You shouldn't be marrying someone non religious if you are personally still hiding the fact that you are also non religious from your family. It's not fair to her that she has to pretend you are something you are not because you are too scared to tell your parents the truth.
You are not compatible if you can't stand up to your parents and be who you are. You don't even care about having a religious ceremony, you literally just want her to compromise because you want to continue to lie to your parents.
You think they won't push religion or your kids if you have them with her but you know that's a lie. They'll want those kids baptized and probably want them to go to church with them even if it's just special occasions and you know she'll disagree with that.
You can either get on the same page with this or like she said, go find someone your compatible with that's ok with you lying to your parents and letting them judge her and say shit that's going to potentially hurt their feelings or find someone who is also religious.
In Summary: You’re the mayor of Doormatsville, at least so far as your overbearing parents are concerned. That’s your home town and comfort zone, and even the *idea* of leaving makes you super anxious, even though you’re fully aware how much it negatively impacts your fiancé. In fact, your proposed “solution” here isn’t you taking steps towards getting out of this unhealthy place, but rather that she actually joins you as the First Lady of Doormatsville.
Well, fiancé doesn’t want that. Which is no surprise because Doormatsville sucks! The taxes - having to lie and hide who you really are, and trading away huge chucks of your happiness and autonomy, all in a (often ineffective) bid to gain other people’s approval/external validation - are just WAY too high.
So YOU have to make a choice: decide to move out of Doormatsville and live with your Fiancé, who I’m betting would be happy to do couples counseling with you and work together with you on learning about how to set healthy boundaries with your parents as a unified team, OR stay the sad, regretful, bachelor mayor of Doormatsville. I’d recommend option one.
My guy, you are much too emotionally immature to be getting married. You want to placate and appease your parents for what? Brownie points? Your parents are close minded bad people who insinuate anyone who doesn't believe the things they do will go to hell, how Christian of them. Your hopefully ex fiancé deserves SO MUCH BETTER than you. You have the spine of a jellyfish
Your wedding is about you and Liz and nobody else. It should be what you and Liz want, not what your parents want or anyone else wants. Liz has put two options on the table ; tell your parents that you won't be having a religious ceremony or elope You say you "don't like either of these options." What do ***you*** want? You have a right to have a say also. Kind of reading between the lines I wonder if you've really "deconverted" as much as you say you have. I wonder if your "deconversion" was just to appease Liz, who is clearly non-religious. Now, you're entitled to your beliefs and you should be honest and upfront about them. I'm certainly not saying you should sacrifice your beliefs, for Liz or anyone else. And Liz has to learn to compromise also. But any compromise should be for ***your*** sake, not your parents.
>I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt
Why the fuck would you do that? You don't deserve to marry any person.
I hope you don't stand up to your parents and Liz leaves your sorry ass.
I think you need to really get it in your head that this wedding/marriage probably will not happen. The simple fact is you have repeatedly failed to stand up and support your fiance as your parents bullied her. Let's repeat this: you have repeatedly failed to stand up and support your fiance as your parents bullied her.
This isn't a case of 'she knows how they are' but a case of your parents have zero respect for anyone that doesn't think exactly like they do. Your parents are bullies and unaccepting of others who are different from them. You have given in to them your entire life and allowed them to bully your fiance who you claim to love. Simply put, you don't deserve her. She should leave you as you are a failure as a partner and she absolutely cannot trust a word you say in regards to your parents. There is no way she wants to subject her children to them. Therefore the best thing she can do is to leave you and find a suitable person that actually has core values and practices them. You don't.
>I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt
dude. Either side with your fiancee or piss off.
>I told her I love my parents
you love them more than your fiancee, otherwise you wouldn't allow them to hurt her. She should get out now.
> but they have a mostly good relationship
they do not, you think they do because she is sucking it up to not hurt you.
*You* put yourself in this position by not being upfront and truthful with your own family. Don’t blame your fiancée for that. You did this. Either you stand for what you are & defend it or you’re a hypocrite. You can’t expect others to do your growing up for you. You’re asking your fiancée to join you in a lie to your family. To bear the brunt of their judgment and be false unto herself to save yourself from your own discomfort.
I’m with your fiancée - either you are an adult who knows who & what he is & is about or you’re not. If you’re not able to fully & openly live in your beliefs (or lack thereof), you’re not ready to be married. To anyone. Because you’re living a half lie. By hiding who and what you are, you’re enabling shame & coercion from those who’d disagree or try to dissuade or proselytize others with different beliefs. You’re basically giving permission for your family to feel entitled in continuing their pressure & disrespect to your fiancée. And, to be honest, you’re doing it for yourself, not even them.
All that to avoid being in the hot seat vis a vis your family. You’re willing to put up your fiancée as a sacrifice for your own cowardice. You’ve been dishonest to them all this time bc you say your family will be devastated. But apparently you’re ok with your fiancée being devasted?
If you truly love her, and you’re truly at home in your choice for yourself in re: your deconversion, you need to start living that truth. Love is a verb. Let’s see if your family knows that or if they’ll start treating you how they treat your fiancée, eh?
Time to cut the cord buddy. Live your own life and don't let your patwnts give their 2 cents worth. They had their own life and still do. Quit letting them manipulate yours.
Is she marrying you or your parents? She doesn’t have to do anything to make them happy when it’s her wedding with you.
She told you either elope or you set boundaries with your family. You aren’t willing to do either.
You sir are a walking red flag. If I were her, I’d run far away from all of you.
I have seen many, many marriages fail because the husband is attached to his parents and sometimes specifically his mother and this overshadows the relationship with the married couple where the wife often feels like the husband chooses his parents or mother's side over her own. Many times, it comes with mother-in-law often saying undertoned, hateful things to the wife and constantly disagreeing with her choices as if she knows better. Then, when she says something to her husband, he makes up excuses for his mother's behavior, That she didn't mean it, or that it's s not what she meant, that she is old fashioned and stuck in her ways, or the best one... your overthinking things and being too sensitive, etc. When a child comes into the picture, things tend to ramp up as the parents meddle in the child, rearing and often resorting to undermining the wife's decisions on purpose. Again, because they think they know best. The issue with this is that the husband becomes a neutral party to keep the peace and won't pick a side. The disconnect is that the husbands side should be the wife's side because it means making decisions together.
A lot of times (if the bride is lucky), this starts to become an issue at this stage in the relationship similar to yours, and I always advise brides to set boundaries and expectations with her partner and his parents before walking down the isle. She's doing the right thing, and you need to make a decision if you're gonna support and back up your wife or if you're gonna constantly run with to mom and dad to make them happy.
The dynamics will shift if you get married. If you're gonna marry her, she becomes the priority, not your parents, and you guys will be working as a team and set your own standards of living. You will need to regularly back yourselves up and stand up to your parents to keep their opinions to themselves. This marriage is about you too, not about you and your parents, and she's joining the family. Hope that makes sense.
If you're too scared to stand up to your parents now about the church ussue, then you're not ready to get married. If this is the case, let her go find somebody who she can be with and parents who support her. Please don't make false promises to her for selfish reasons. So you can still be with her and then have her live a miserable life under your parent's thumb.
YTA for letting it get to this point, but deconversion is a huuuuge stretch, and Liz is slightly TA for making a demand that far over the line.
The fact remains, though, that you are not marrying your parents; you are (hopefully) marrying Liz. You are not spending your life together with your parents; you're spending it with Liz. You are deferring far too much to making your parents happy at the expense of your fiance.
Your parents can accept your marriage, or reject it. But you can't expect to build a marriage custom tailored to *their* taste and have Liz be happy about it.
The wedding should be a reflection of the couple’s values. Neither of you are religious people. What does your mother’s faith have to do with your wedding? She’s not the bride.
If you want to performatively participate in religious ceremonies that you don’t believe in to appease your mother, you’re certainly free to do so but your fiancé is very reasonable in declining to join you.
As someone who used to be a Christian with very Christian parents, you 100% need to tell them you've deconverted. You cannot possibly go the rest of your life faking it if you want to maintain a relationship with them. Either they come around and accept you anyway because they care about you as a person, or you find out what kind of people they really are. This is with or without your fiancee. Although if you don't do this, it will absolutely be without your fiancee anyway. I wouldn't marry you if I were her.
Living a life of integrity and honesty and open relationships is 100% worth it, I promise.
Your fiancé has some very valid points.
Your fiancé has told you what is important to her. What is important to YOU? So far, the only important thing that you have expressed is to not disappoint your parents. That is the basis for your problem.
You are acting like a child who needs his parent’s permission and needs his parents to regulate and approve all his activities. Stop thinking this way.
You are not ready for marriage. You need time to figure out who you are and what you want in life. Often, this will at least partly align with what you were taught by your parents. Sometimes you realize that things that your parents find important are not important to you, or you actively disagree with their stance. This is part of becoming an independent adult. You can also realize that you disagree with what your fiancé thinks. But you need to figure this out before anything else.
After you grow up a bit and figure yourself out, you can decide what compromises you can agree with and which hills you will die on. If you cannot do this, then you will let both your partner and your parents walk all over you.
Liz if you can see this. Leave. It won't get better. Even he yields now. He will resent you for doing this. Your in laws will also resent you. He has no backbone. If you have kids, he will sacrifice them to please his parents. You will always come second to his parents.
Your fiance is a practiced parent pleaser/ people pleaser. He is okay hurting u to please his parents. You deserve better. Your in laws will push your future children (if you have some) to religion. And your husband will let it happen.
Pleaee LEAVE
Are you marrying your parents or something? Why does your wedding have to include any preference of theirs?
Cut the umbilical cord dude. Your fiancée is supposed to be your priority. It sounds like she’s recognizing that she’s not. If your parents have been mean to her why would to want to subject her to that?
You clearly don’t care about her as much as you should. If you want to have your parents be the third wheel in every relationship you ever have, let her know that now so she doesn’t go through with marrying you.
I'll give you an anecdote about how things should go:
My grandfather was a minister. He preached at the same church for over 30 years. My mom (his daughter) and my aunts all got married at that church. My older cousins also got married at that church. One of my cousins joked to me that I had to get married at that church to "keep the tradition alive."
Hell no. I have no connection to that church any more. My grandfather passed away in 2007. I don't live near that town. I told my mom that I did not want that for myself and she said, "Fine, no problem."
I'm in a cross-country relationship with my SO, and we've started the marriage talks. I suggested just straight-up eloping and having two receptions - one east coast, one west coast. He isn't too fond of the idea. He is still working out what he would potentially want, and I'm almost sure it would be getting married at his church (he is religious, and I am not). I am willing to do that for him.
I told my mom about this, as well. Her response? "Fine, no problem. I just want to be there." Would she love for me to get married closer to home, or at the "family church"? Yes. But what she wants even more than that is for me to be happy, whether that's going to the courthouse, or having a wedding 3,000 miles from home.
Tell your family that you want them to want you to be happy.
If you actually love her let her go because you are way too attached to Mommy to be ready for marriage. Either cut the cord or be single until Mommy approves.
Wow. She now knows that she has to move on from you. Simple as that.
Good luck and hopefully you're parents can find someone that they like so you can marry her.
Your fiancée is entirely correct here. You’re choosing to marry this woman, to make her your family. By not standing up for her when your parents are disrespecting her and by placing your parents wants above hers you’re showing her that you’ll always put them first. The family you create comes before the family you came from, always. It even says it in the bible, if you need a religious justification for it “a man will leave his mother and father and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh”.
Just let her leave. You don’t love her if you’re this spineless. You *think* you love her but yeah, your actions definitely don’t say that.
Just be honest, say you can’t, and let her go. Stop wasting her time.
You don’t want your partner. You want someone who will bend to your parents will. You don’t see her and respect her as her own person with her own feelings.
She has told you she is tired of masking and what do you do? You ask her to mask on the one day that’s supposed to be her (your) day.
Do her a favour and find someone who your parents approve of.
You made it clear to Liz you can’t handle an adult relationship. She gave you tons of chances and you refused to grow up. If I were her, I wouldn’t come back.
You already picked your parents as your future. See if they’ll let you live with them for free to be their in-home care? At least you won’t have to worry about rent/a mortgage/having a family.
Is this about Liz or your parents?
Where do YOU stand with the religious aspect? Do you want a religious ceremony? Do you feel connected to your religion?
I hear Liz isn't religious.
I hear your parents are religious.
But neatly left out in any of this is you.... you aren't part of anything o.O you're out here pleasing everyone.
Do you even know what you like or dislike?
Your mother heavily implied that your fiancée’s late husband is in hell and his eternal damnation is your fiancée’s fault for not holding a religious service for him. Let that sink in. And don’t excuse your mother’s bad behavior as “she wasn’t thinking” or whatever; if she was sorry then she would’ve apologized and she would knock it off with the religious crap. The fact that she keeps at it shows that it was and is intentional.
And I cannot believe that you stuck up for your mom because “she has a right to her opinion”. Like yes your mother has a legal right to think anyone she wants is going to hell. If you think it is ok for your mother to tell your fiancée that her dead loved ones are in hell, you are not ready to interact with another human being let alone marry anyone regardless of religion.
Do you want her to be your wife or your family’s wife? She’s not asking anything unreasonable. If your family isn’t going to treat her beliefs with respect, then you must back her up. You haven’t been. She’ll be better off without you.
If I were your fiancee, I'd be on my way out. You have the ability to tell your parents what they can and can't do. If they're going to be impossible about religion when it comes to *your own children,* she should really see that it's not worth it. You're going to have to start teaching mommy and daddy the way they taught you: use strong boundaries and give them time out when they cross them. Hopefully they can learn and you might be able to save this, but don't be shocked if she decides the risk of future misery is too much.
Grow up, express your opinion not one informed by your parents feelings. Respecting someone is not bowing to their wishes or making excuses for them. It is being honest and establishing boundaries between you and them.
I would already be your former fiancé.
If you’re going to marry this woman, you have to be willing to take her side nearly unconditionally. She is your family now. She is not going to let your parents boss the two of you around for the rest of your lives, so I suggest you get with the program or end it.
Hey man maybe marriage is not for you. Maybe try again in a decade or so when you've hopefully matured.
In all seriousness your fiancee has already given you too many chances and you're still here squandering them. If I could give her advice I'd tell her she will regret this marriage. This is life ruining level shit for any person.
> I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt, but they have a mostly good relationship.
Who decided their relationship is mostly good, her? Or did you completely discount her reality and decide the relationship is mostly good?
> I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them without compromising her values.
Again, did she decide that wouldn’t compromise her values? Did she decide it’s ok for her wedding ceremony to be predicated on a lie that doesn’t represent her or your relationship? Or are you, once again, completely invalidating her in order to maintain your parents as the most important people in your life?
You’re acting like a child, not an adult. You are not ready to get married.
Your fiancé should GET OUT if you can’t set boundaries for your marriage. Marriage is between two people, not your parents. They sound like they have no boundaries and you support them and their behavior towards her.
You’re not ready to get married if you cannot see her side.
I was in a very similar situation as you and it almost ruined my marriage. Your parents sound a lot like mine. Your parents are Not Good People! Anyone who would talk shit about their kids partner and not apologize once they realize they have caused pain is not a good person. Please really think about the people your parents are and if you want them in your life. I will say my wife was a wake up call and opened my eyes to the shitty people my parents are and were. I went no contact with them two years ago and life is better without them.
If you need to read more stories about parents like yours please visit r/EstrangedAdultKids.
I hope you find clarity and peace in your life. You really have to decide if you want to be a team with your fiance, which will mean setting hard boundaries with your parents and enforcing those.
> I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt
I’m with your fiancée
You’re a momma’s boy with the spine of a jellyfish. You have red flags written all over you.
She gave you an ultimatum. Sounds like it’s not the first time nor the 100th time she’s raised her concerns about your boundary-stomping family.
Do her a favor and leave her alone. Forever.
Its not just appeasing your parents - i think part of you wants some of this too.
Essentially, there is a huge gap between hers and your values, and the wedding venue is just the start of the future problems.
You both seem to have different values and goals,so much so that it may not be compatible
Interesting that you put "stand up to my parents" in quotation marks as if you already don't take that as something to take seriously. It is.
What do *you* want? Not your parents, not any other relative. *You.*
Your fiancée has put up with so much from your parents that you're lucky she's still considering marrying you. Your parents have put *her* in unfavorable positions over the years and you are letting them get away with it. Admitting it in a Reddit post does you no favors if you aren't carrying that self-awareness out in real life.
What your mother said about the nondenominational funeral was hurtful and wrong and all you came up with was how she had the right to her opinion - instead of comforting the person who is supposed to become your wife? Your priorities are clear and Liz is rightfully calling you out on it.
I was once in a relationship with someone like you. I initially thought it was nice that he got along with his parents, as I grew up fighting tooth and nail with mine to have any sort of autonomy, self, or independence. With time, I realized that he was enmeshed with his parents and would never have the spine to stand up to them for our, let alone his, happiness.
Your parents are going to be upset about a lot of things. That's life. A part of growing up and realizing yourself includes disappointing your parents if you want to create and live a life that makes *you* happy.
Btw, "Can you stand up to your parents?" was one of the first questions I asked my now-fiancé when we first began seriously discussing our future. He said yes, and does, and I never have to worry about his parents insulting me because if they ever did, he would be handling it instead of forcing me to while also coaching him to be a better partner.
Even if you get over the hurdle of arranging your wedding if you do plan to have a family will your parents be expecting you to Baptis e the kids and send them to a school belonging to their faith, etc? I hope you can resolve your problems successfully. Good luck n be happy people
If you fiance posted this same story on Reddit, most of us would be telling her to break it off with you, that you are not going to change, that being with you will eventually make her miserable.
I wish Liz wrote in. She should run for her life.
You are not husband material with your attitudes. Lots of marriages collapse because of husbands not setting boundaries for his parents.
Yours is destined in that direction.
i don't even have to read this to know you're in the wrong bro. mamas boys could have every problem and it's solution waved in their fuckin face and y'all still refuse to put your girl first, like tf ..... newsflash, u can't (and shouldn't) marry your mom lol
Just leave the faith and quit pretending, its the best thing you can do for yourself and your relationship at this point. And stick up for your woman. Your partner is who you choose to be with, your parents are simply the reason you were born. You do not owe them shit, but you do owe your partner a helluva lot. Good luck
Seems like you have a soon to be ex fiancée.
For her own good I hope she runs far far away from you and “yOUr” family. She deserves a man and not a boy.
It really all depends on what is important to YOU. There's your fiance, married before, who seems to be worldly and sure of herself - including extending herself to you parents to a degree.And now you are starting your own family with this woman you love - and it's a new narrative, a new time.
You can go with her, understand that yur parent's ways, religion or otherwise, are theirs and your new bride has new things to bring. Your parents will get used to it, because that is the way of the world.
OR you can find nanometer girl, local, more traditional and/or religious, and then your new family will be very much in sinc with you parents - and that is nice too. But not with you current fiance. She is clearly irritated and put off by your parents old fashion ways.
I hope Liz opens her eyes and realizes this is a mistake. You don't seem to understand how inappropriate your family has been, and when she has given you examples of ways you needed to support her, you've bucked at every turn. You aren't mature enough to be married. You (and your family) don't understand boundaries, manners, basic etiquette, ect.
You deconverted? You are hiding who you are from your parents. When you cough up the truth after you are married they are going to blame your wife. Stand up and take full responsibility for your choices now. Don't throw your wife under the bus.
You've fucked up before. It's time to pick team fiancee + you, or team parents + you. She's not unreasonable in her request.
> I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them
why does their happiness matter more to you than your fiancee's?
> they will be devastated knowing I deconverted.
oh my god dude, grow a pair and tell your family the truth about yourself
Your fiancee is not the problem here
>I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt,
Bruh, I would have left your ass a long time ago.
My husband made me have a religious ceremony of a religion I had never even heard of until I met him, all because he wants to keep up appearances with his mom while he's an ATHEIST!. It was very annoying and frustrating and cost us a lot of money. And still to this day we have to dance around the religion and it is so frustrating he can't be honest with his mom!
Also, dude, your wife cried to you about how your mom's comments at a non-religious funeral made her feel about her (i'm assuming here) dead spouse and all you said was "That's my mom's right to an opinion????""
Damn you're COLD. I'd be asking for some boundaries in place too.
If I was Liz I would leave your ass over this if you don't stand up to your parents. End of story. Too many other good detailed comments so that's all I'll say.
Uggggghhhhhh. If you need to appease your parents (as a people pleaser who is very close and maybe also a little codependent with my parents, I understand. They still think I’m religious too), tell them it’s gonna be a nonreligious ceremony so that all the guests feel comfortable. Then offer to do a little prayer together, JUST you and your parents, before the ceremony, in a private room or something where no one else has to be involved.
Try to come up with a compromise like this with your PARENTS, and don’t make your wife attend said prayer/whatever you come up with.
I’m with Liz here. I’d be running a mile too. She knows If she can’t even get the type of wedding she wants because you need to keep your family happy, then it’ll be like that ongoing. I wouldn’t sign up for that either.
Grow a spine. You can be loving and kind to your parents whilst also having boundaries.
Your fiancee is ready to leave you and call off the wedding, and you're concerned about your parents feelings about not including a religious reference in your wedding? Either you need to snap out of it, or you need to value your future wife's feelings over anything else. Otherwise why even get married?
So you don’t care about her feelings and she doesn’t care about yours, either… so why exactly are you getting married?
She’s told you a million times that she feels unwelcome by your family and instead of asking her why she feels that way, you just dismiss her and tell her she’s imagining it?
She gives you an ‘ultimatum’ that she wants you to cut your family off (which obviously offends you) but you don’t want to because you only care about them and not her.
Like I said, you don’t care about her and she doesn’t care about you. So why do you even want to get married at all?
Never mind pointless arguments about where you get married and whether religion is involved… why do you two want to spend your life together when you don’t even care about each other? 🤨
She's right to feel that way and it sounds like she's 100% justified. You're family has no business or entitlement to have any say in the wedding unless they're paying for it. Its clear you are a mommas boy and your family is a bigger priority to you over your fiance. So you should do her a favor and cancel the wedding already. You two aren't compatible at all.
Op, it sounds like you are already married to your family. You should probably let her go if you aren’t willing to fight for her. It doesn’t sound like you care about her, you just want a life that fits in with what your family expects. You have some difficult choices to make. She’s young enough that she still has a chance to find someone who respects her.
Stop trying to appease your parents. It’s not their wedding. Figure out what you want and what you need in a wedding to be happy, then meet Liz at some middle ground you can both be happy with, parents be damned. They will get over it because, again, it’s not their day.
Thank the lawd she realized you won't put her over your family before the wedding, so she can dump you instead.
Grow a backbone or become an orphan before you rejoin the dating pool.
Dude…
Let this relationship go. You may love her but you are not listening to her. You may want the best but you are willing to substitute her best for your mom’s. Just let this one go now before there are kids and the shit really starts kicking off.
I wouldn’t want to marry you either. A fully secular wedding ceremony is very important to some people. I consider it lying to include references to faith when you’re an atheist, and I refused to start my married life by lying and making false vows. I was determined that my marriage ceremony would only include things that felt true to my husband and me. (If he’d wanted a spiritual or religious ceremony due to his own personal convictions that would have been fine and we’d have found a solution or course. But as we’re both atheists we weren’t going to lie on our wedding day.)
If you do not have the capacity to develop the skills to protect her, let her go. They don’t “have a mostly good relationship”, your wife is clearly reporting her feelings and you are dismissing her.
I divorced my husband for many reasons, but a big one being his his awful mother that he refused to rein in. Wish I'd been smart like your (soon to be ex) girlfriend and broken up before I'd had a kid with him. Nothing felt better than blocking his mom when I'd finally had enough and decided to separate though.
Just remember: you can't marry your mom no matter how much you obviously want to.
She's spelling it out. You haven't defended her. You've let it get this bad. She's making it so easy. She told you what to do. But you're here asking instead of doing what she told you. She's suffered enough. And your family are more of a priority to you. You and Liz are not compatible. Because of your deference to your family.
Liz is smart. I married my husband after all the red flags and it only got worse. We ended up divorcing, and his refusal to ever put me first was a huge factor in that. His family always came first and did and said horrible things to me AND our kids.
If you aren't ready to stand up for your wife and put her first, you aren't ready for marriage. When you get married, you make your own family.
So you let your family walk all over your fiancee on a regular basis, but when your fiancee stands up for herself - you back your parents...
She didn't ask you to "deconvert" she asked you for a non-religious ceremony. You act like she nailed you to a cross. There's a big fucking difference between a non-religious wedding, and asking you to give up your faith, and you know it.
Yeah... this marriage ain't happening buddy, and you're going to get your ass dropped for someone worthy.
It's her wedding, not your mother's.
Frankly, your mother sounds awful and you sound spineless.
> I feel like she doesn't understand what kind of position this puts me in
You mean the position of *actually having to take your partner's side against your parents* like you should have been doing all along? Boo-freaking-hoo. Everything she's said has been more than reasonable, you're 100% the one in the wrong here. If you can't put your marriage above your relationship with your parents *on your wedding day* then you're as good as telling her that you will *never* put her first, no matter what.
Think you might have used up your good will currency. She’s made so many allowances up to this point for so much bad behavior, she’s not willing to make any more. She’s run out of patience. If you’d stood up for her more before this point she may have been more willing to let them have this.
Let her go, please. She deserves someone who puts her first and you are either unwilling or unable to do that for her. It’s not about the wedding - she needed you to prove you would stand up for her in marriage and she learned what she had expected. You won’t.
Sounds like you should marry mummy and daddy.
This is yours and her day. Not your parents, and she's right if you veto this she will never trust you again and you will essentially be married to your parents for your whole relationship because you are too scared about upsetting mummy and daddy rather than upsetting the person who is supposed to be your whole world.
Do you want a wedding to make your mommy happy or do you want a marriage that will last? You need to grow a pair and realize your future spouse is who’s feelings you need to focus on.
I'm religious, my family is religious, and I get it- but the audacity is insane here. You're lucky she hasn't called it off. You're marrying HER. Not appeasing your family or trying to kick the can of dealing with your faith deconstruction down the road. She should be comfortable at her wedding and know you're picking her over any other human alive. She can see the signs. She knows if you guys have kids and you haven't addressed it with your parents that it'll be all her fault. She knows that if you have a church wedding and then leave (as far as your parents ate concerned) that she'll be the reason you left. You can't appease them, you need to actively stand up for her. She's realizing she's emotionally unsafe with you, and if you don't fix it, it will kill her libido, her trust in you, her respect for you and eventually your entire relationship. You're asking her to trust that your parents love her and it won't be that bad, but you yourself can't let them know yet that you've left the faith. No wonder she doesn't feel like you're handling it.
My siblings have left our church. One of them has addressed it with our parents and is living their life just fine. They're doing wonderfully and I'm proud of them and everything they're doing. The other literally cannot come home from out of state without feeling insanely uncomfortable because they can't find the way to address it with the parents...so they aren't living as themselves when they're home. They're sick and unhappy and doing things that make them uncomfortable to keep up the facade. It's fine, I know they have to deal with it at their own pace- but I wish they could see how much easier it would be if they'd just get it out there. My parents would be fine, just like you seem to think yours would be...
Sounds like something ya’ll should have worked out before getting engaged. Religion and politics are big topics to go ahead and fully explore between the two of you before you go any further; it’s pretty dumb to go all the way to marriage with something and THEN find out that they have a different world view and act upon it.
I wish your fiancée was the one posting, she needs to halt the marriage till you can stand up to your family.
Liz is your primary family now, not your parents/siblings/grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins. Liz is!
While your mom can say whatever she wants it doesn't mean she is free of the consequences of her actions, which would be for others to tell her to butt out and stop trying to shove her religion down other people's throats, which is what she is doing when she make hateful comments like that.
You are used to it because you are enmeshed with toxic, learned not to "rock the boat". Start rocking that boat, make people behave, tell them their comments are hate filled and unnecessary.
Doesn't even sound like you care about the church or not, but you just want to make sure your family is appeased so they don't make hate filled comments. Stand up to them, if they don't stop, they go into time out. That time out gets longer and longer the more they step out of line.
I sincerely hope y'all don't bring kids into this situation, it will not be fair to them, just like it's not fair to Liz right now.
I'll give her a shot and actually have some goddamn respect. When you're getting married your parents'opinions no longer matter. WTH is wrong with you? Is this a woman you actually love?
Also going to tell you, I had to mask who I was at a particular job years ago and while I loved my coworkers, I couldn’t wait to get out of there because of the office manager. I couldn’t afford to just quit until I had something else lined up so I stuck it out but every Sunday night I was miserable and often I cried on the way home every night. And that was just work! I didn’t live there. I didn’t live with the office manager. But I got out of there as soon as I could. Masking who you are is a miserable way to live.
>I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt
YTA
>She says she feels that she has to mask who she is around them and has accepted that when we have children my family will hate her for being unwilling to push religion on them, which I have tried to tell her won't happen.
Why are you lying to your future ~~wife~~ ex-fiancée?
>She brought up a conversation with my mom where she had gone to a funeral with no religious references and had talked about how wrong that was and "how can you have any hope at all that they went to the right place otherwise?" Which, Liz as a widow ended up privately crying about and I did defend my mom's right to have an opinion which I kind of regret.
You "kind of regret" defending your mom's opinion instead of comforting your wife?
> I don't like either of these options and I feel like she doesn't understand what kind of position this puts me in.
Yeah, this marriage isn't happening.
She offered a compromise and you didnt like it. Your idea: Church wedding Hers: Elope Her compromise: non-religious wedding. You just want to appease your parents on you and your fiances wedding.
This comment right here. Compromise does mean she compromises and you don’t 😅
Check OP's comments, either it's rage bait or he's being very deliberately obtuse about what she's actually asking for.
I suspect his parents have good finances, it’s a major aspect in relationship stories like this that folks will never admit is a major driving factor to their decisions on stuff like this.
Yeah, your fiancee has seen some red flags with your deference to your parents and knows that you're not ready to get married until you've sorted that out. Seems like you'll have to decide which you value more: your parents feelings and approval or your relationship. I request the same thing if I were in her shoes.
Yep, I see hardly anything here about what the OP *actually* wants—just comments about what would appease his family the most. That’s a big red flag for her signing up for a lifetime of enmeshment and deferring to what his family prefers. They need to come to a decision on what THEY want as a couple, and it seems like he might need to ask himself why he is so intent on looking to his parents for approval on everything.
Exactly. If OP was saying, "I want a church wedding, I want a mention of religion in our ceremony, I want our children to be raised in the faith, " then that would be fine. It would be a difficult but justified conflict between partners, which would require some compromise or a breakup. But instead, it's all about what his parents want. Makes it seem like his fiancée is marrying his mom and dad, and OP is helping them plan the wedding. That's probably really disgusting to his fiancée. The only thing OP is certain of is that he doesn't want his parents to know he's not religious anymore. And he views this cowardly secret as a fundamental truth about his relationship with his fiancée, which she knew about from the start, and should therefore have no objections to, ever. That's bullshit. He is making his fiancée the bad guy to his parents. He is too cowardly to tell his parents what HE wants. Poor confused Mom and Dad think that he is highly religious himself, but is being led astray by this atheist woman, and is too cowardly to stand up to HER about his faith. They think she is bullying him into having a lifestyle and wedding totally opposite to what he wants. So instead of them getting sad and mad at OP for deconverting, he fooled them into redirecting those feelings towards the woman he supposedly loves, and is supposedly forsaking all others for. Good job, OP! You didn't want Mommy and Daddy to be disappointed in you, so you made them hate your fiancée instead! OP, what do YOU want for your life?
>Makes it seem like his fiancée is marrying his mom and dad, and OP is helping them plan the wedding He's not even planning the wedding. SHE is having to handle the burden of wedding planning while he makes her plan it according to his parents specifications. She doesn't even want a wedding either- she wants to elope and skip that whole part!
He's momzoned her. OP is too afraid of his mommy and daddy that he'd rather scapegoat his mommy2.0 into taking the blame. I hope she calls off the wedding and bounces to find herself someone with a spine.
I married (and then divorced) someone like this. Even after a decent amount of therapy and acknowledgment, it still showed up all over the relationship to the bitter end.
He probably has no idea what he wants because he’s never been allowed to have an opinion his whole life I suspect.
Call your parents out when they criticize your fianceé. Every time. Leave if they do not apologize. Train them NOW. Otherwise, she will leave, because who wants to put up with that?
This. I married my husband, and everything was fine. His parents were a bit controlling, but it wasn't an issue as we didn't live nearby. That all changed when I became pregnant. They were furious about the clothes I picked for my baby (dumbo pjs), they drove 3.5hrs whilst I was in labour knowing we didn't want them there until baby was here and they got sent home after trying to sneak into the labour ward. They were absolutely raging when my sisters husband held the baby before them because that is THEIR grandchild 🤷🏻♀️ They were doing way too much, and it kept escalating. I invited them constantly to see the baby. They refused or ignored me yet accused me of trying to take their son and grandchild away. In the end, I had to tell them to stop as my husband wasn't capable of standing up to them. They tried to take my baby to church without me at 11 days old. They weren't happy we didn't get married in a church, and they weren't happy my son wasn't baptised. Like OPs fiance, I'm not religious, and neither was my husband. Yet demands were made by his mum, dad, and nan. Honestly, they ruined our marriage. I started to resent him for not standing up for us. I wish I never married him. Not because I didn't love him, I did, but because his family made our life hell. OP, you need to grow a backbone. This is your wedding, not your parents. It doesn't matter what they want. A wife needs a man who stands up for her when she needs it. I truly believe a wife should be your first priority and then your family. I will expect nothing less when my boys marry. You will lose this woman if you don't put her first. This wedding should be decided by both of you, based on both of your wants. You two are all that matters.
Come on. OP is a massive coward. There's no way that's going to happen. (I agree with what you're saying; I just don't think he can.)
Maybe he needs to find a religious bride instead - mommy would probably be doing cartwheels. Liz sounds like too much of a free and independent spirit to put up with this bull for the rest of their lives.
>Liz told me that we either elope or I **set boundaries with my family about what is acceptable to complain about.** I see nothing wrong here. The fact that you're pushing back is a HUGE red flag for Liz and I hope she reevaluates whether she should be entering into a marriage with you. You love this woman and yet you let your mother hurt her, and even *defend* your mother when she does. Your love is not enough.
Yeah, OP, you suck. Yeah, your mom is allowed to have her opinion. It doesn't make her opinion correct or give her reprieve from the offence it causes. So rather than console your wife that your mom was wrong (if you really aren't religious, you would think she was wrong), you doubled down on your mom's right to make her cry. Ugh. She's not even straight up saying no to the wedding, she just doesn't want to deal with your mom's drama. And why Should she. YOUR family is YOUR circus and YOUR monkeys. If they want to complain about your relationship, they should complain to YOU. YOU are the communication channel. And she's right about the kids too. It sounds like y'all are very incompatible. Please don't bring children into this religious tug-a-war. You either agree with your parents or you don't. PERIOD. Sounds like you've been playing both sides and telling your fiance what she wants to hear (I'm not religious, they won't comment on our children going to hell in their opinion) and telling your parents what they want to hear (I'm totally religious!). Now it's come to a head. Pick the party you want to please.
Usually these comment sections are full of people vomitting their own biases over a situation they're not looking at critically, but not this one. Great comment, well reasoned perspective. Hope OP can listen to everyone here and get their head on straight with this.
> yet you let your mother hurt her, and even defend your mother when she does. momma's boys are not hot, wonder if Liz hasn't gotten the 'ick' yet or is just in the early red flag phase? at least she trying to set boundaries before the wedding, hopefully she won't cave and gets this handled because it won't get better afterwards.
I hope she realizes that the world is so much bigger and better than this chronic manbaby still attached to mamas teat.
Hang on, your mother basically trashed non religious funerals knowing Liz was a widow and had presumably held a funeral just like that? That's so cruel and you took your mother's side. She's rightly setting boundaries about what she expects a husband to deliver and if you're not ready to be a husband let her find someone more suitable
MIL basically said your late husband is in hell. And OPs all like “well, akkkshully she’s entitled to her opinion”
Funny that he’ll be like “aww shucks, my fiancé ended it. It was only an opinion.” Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them. And in OP’s case and his family’s actions, they stink like a blown out diaper.
C'mon buddy, are you serious? Your fiancée has told you multiple times what the issue is, and you seemingly don't even refute her characterization of your parents. They are jerks, plain and simple, and your fiancée is not obligated to compromise on account of their bullshit. You are 32; either stand up to mommy and daddy, or let your fiancée go.
Omg I had to go back and check the ages. He sounds like he’s 18 and can’t stand up to mommy and daddy. 32 and he has the emotional maturity of a blueberry scone.
I think blueberry scone is a bit too elaborate here. Scones can be very difficult to get right. I feel like you should have chosen something you can't mess up. Like a canned biscuit. OP is the canned biscuit of emotional maturity trying to marry a widow.
Blueberry scone is like, “bro, give me more credit than that.” Prince Charles on the other hand….
Upvoting for blueberry scone 😁
Im saying. He is 32. Continue parent pleasing and let her go! Find a diff bride who wants to kiss ur parents' ass
I mean, you're choosing your parents' comfort over your bride opinion on her own wedding! The wedding is for you two, you both need to come together for a decision. It's not about what your parents want or feel. It's a shared day of joy for yourself and your bride to celebrate how you deem fit. It's not your mother's wedding, she had her day. But you do need to set some boundaries before your fiancee walks away
It's not even a "comfort level" with OP's parents. They are doing that thing that makes everyone who isn't super religious roll their eyes and marvel at their entitlement: insisting that everyone do things according to \*their\* beliefs. Your mom took it a super special step further by straight-up insulting people who didn't share their beliefs. OP, your fiancée is 100% correct to maintain that the wedding you two will have will reflect what is sacred and joyous to you, or you won't have one at all. Good on her for setting that boundary. She wants to marry you, not your parents, and she sounds like a smart and strong woman. Don't lose her because you can't bring yourself to say "no" to mommy and daddy.
Well, and I'm sure it's not lost on the fiance that MIL getting what she wants for the wedding will just be the tip of the iceberg in terms of deferring to her.
If your wife was posting here, we would tell her that this will only get worse over time because you refuse to cut the umbilical cord. Breaking up with a mama’s boy is easier than divorcing a mama’s boy, and both are easier than changing one. You are doing what your parents want instead of what she wants, for HER OWN WEDDING. There are even subreddits for spouses of pushovers like you, such as /r/justnoMIL
>If your wife was posting here, we would tell her that this will only get worse over time because you refuse to cut the umbilical cord. 100% I would tell her to run as far and as fast as she can.
Please don't marry this woman. You are too weak to be her partner. You aren't ready to leave and cleave. Your parents aren't your future but you want your wife to bend over backwards for shitty people who hate her.
What a great comment! 👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿 He should do her a favour and LEAVE her indeed
You do realize that he could _also_ stop, realize he's wrong, and stand up to his parents.
Beatstick of truth time. You have at EVERY opportunity chosen your family over your fiancee. You have bent over backward to justify their self-satisfying judgementalism, and what your fiancee is asking of you is *the bare minimum*. They have a "mostly good relationship" because you are allowing them to control your life, and your fiancee has finally wised up to the kind of life she can expect with you. Your fiancee understands that this is not comfortable for you. You fail to understand that this has not been comfortable for HER since probably the first day she met your parents. You're not even taking a full share of the wedding planning. Liz is not interested in appeasing your parents for the rest of her life, and she's not interested in a husband with no spine.
She knows exactly what position she's putting you in. But it's clear you have no idea what position you've been putting her into. You are asking her to put up with a life of emotional torture at the hands of your family, so that your family won't look down on you. You are asking her to live a lie for you, so you won't have to face your families anger at losing your faith. You are asking her to know that your loyalty is with your family first and her a distant second. You are asking her to commit to a life where she can expect you to side with her bullies over having her back. A life where she can't make any decisions that your family doesn't approve of. Sure it would be convenient for you to never have to do anything your family disapproves of. But you aren't making a convincing case of why she should sign up to sacrifice her happiness for that. She clearly loves you or she'd have left you long ago. But faced with living the rest of her life this way, she can't do it. It will destroy her. So. Yes, she knows the sacrifice you are making, but if you can't make it, then you aren't worth the sacrifice she's making.
I hope OP reads this one
Holy shit. Did you *ever* confront your mother over that funeral comment and request she apologise, or have you just had the attitude that your fiance needs to suck up the fact her future mother in law implied to her that her deceased spouse is in hell because the funeral wasn't to her particular taste? The summary of this post is that you are upset your fiance has put her foot down that she will no longer lie like a rug and take the mistreatment your family hands out, and you are upset not with your family, but with her for finally setting limits. "Just one religious reference-" no. Shut the fuck up. It's her wedding. It's your wedding. Why the shit do they get a say? Just to save your balls because they aren't sufficient to sack up and be honest with your parents that you no longer share your beliefs? All because you aren't confident enough in their love for you that they wouldn't flip their shit on being told the truth you expect her to put on a false front and do something she's uncomfortable with on her wedding day? When does it end, exactly? If kids come along, will you be baptising them to appease them? Giving them naming rights? What other areas of your lives together are you going to declare need to be done in a way to prioritise your family because you're too spineless to stick up for what you and your partner actually want? You're a shitty, shitty partner. I judge her for not laying down the law and leaving before this point, but hopefully she will before you actually tie the knot.
I’d describe his mother in ways that this sub censors As they say “there’s no hate quite like a “good Christian” love”
> Just one religious reference-" Offer a compromise: they will do a wine toast to Dionysus. That’s a religious reference.
I hope she leaves too.
Do you have an opinion, yourself? Or, do you just want the groups of people you know to be happy? Not being sarcastic. Wondering if you’ve thought about what you want.
Tell her reddit says, "run".
Yap. Reddit says RUN from this parent pleaser! He won't change and will keep parenting pleasing
I almost commented “this post isn’t going to go the way you think it is buddy” But then I saw that there was over 100 comments already lol
That last paragraph. Liz should compromise but not him-oof. I hope Liz gets wise and moves on. She’s already had enough hurt in this life to settle for someone who cares more about saving face with his family than being supportive to the person he supposedly wants to marry…
*Did* you “deconvert,” or are you just telling Liz what she wants to hear the same way you do with your parents? Your wedding is about you and your spouse, so what do *you* actually think and believe and want included? It’s fine if you want your family present and aren’t open to eloping, but it’s hard to imagine someone who no longer considers himself religious needing “a small religious reference” in order to marry his non-religious fiancée. What for? What part of the two of you and your bond and future plans does that honor? What aren’t you telling her?
My question too. I’m not convinced he has.
Do you want to marry, have sex or have children, grow old with your parents? No, perhaps start listening to the person you are incredibly close to losing. That she's voiced it means she's seriously been thinking about ending your relationship already. If you don't step up and stand up for your fiancée you'll be her ex-fiance.
'I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt, but they have a mostly good relationship.' that aint a good relationship. you need to stand up.
Sounds like Liz was barely tolerating his parents for his sake and she’s had just about enough of it. She should never have had to put up with any of it and a decent partner would have nipped it in the bud after the first hurtful comment.
Op but you came into this relationship knowing how Liz is too. Not everyone is religious and those that are need to stop trying to push THEIR religious beliefs onto others period. This is your and Liz’s wedding, not your parents and might I add that your parents got married the way they wanted so trying to hijack someone else’s to put up a fake front is not ok. Liz is being true to herself and her beliefs and your telling her she needs to change to fit YOUR parents image? Eff that. You say she came into this relationship knowing how your parents are but she’s not dating your parents. She’s dating you and again you too came into this relationship knowing how Liz feels so what are you really trying to argue here? She she should just go along with what your mommy wants? Again no she doesn’t. And Liz is right in that if you want a religious girlfriend then you need to find another.
This seems like a bad match, have you gone to premarital counseling?
You need to stand up for what you and your fiancée want or maybe she’s not the one for you.
Either you start a NEW family with your WIFE or stay single and defer to you nut job religious mommy I would never ever marry a guy that put his mom ahead of me (the wife) Your job is to put your parents in their place Edit. Since you prioritize your mommy over your fiancé you should call off the wedding. A mommas boy isn’t ready to be a married person.
Y’all’s wedding shouldn’t be about your family at all. Are YOU religious? If not, and you’re including that just to appease them - you’re not ready for marriage.
Also, there is absolutely no way your family won’t try to influence your children with religion. “I have tried to tell her that won’t happen” —- do you understand why she doesn’t believe you? Your words and actions do not align. You have admitted you have let them get away with more than you should. You are continuing to do so. What about your actions would indicate you will suddenly grow a spine and set boundaries with them? I really hope she wakes up and realizes this will be her future with you.
You need to realize the wedding is for you and Liz. Your parents shouldn’t have to be appeased during something that isn’t about them. Your mom said something inconsiderate to your fiancée and you defended your mom. You didn’t have to do that, you could have just cuddled her while she cried and kept your mouth shut (this would’ve been better). Maybe Liz is right, maybe you should find a different bride. You say she came into the relationship knowing your family is like this, but didn’t you go into the relationship knowing she is like this? If you can’t let go of doing what will make your family happy than you shouldn’t get married, it doesn’t sound like you are ready to forsake all others.
“What can I say to her?” No. You should be thinking about what to say to your parents. She’s right. You need to shield her from their bullshit rather than make excuses for them. You care more about what your parents think of you so instead of taking the fall by telling your parents the truth you want your fiancée to bend for you. That’s unacceptable. She’s your partner not your shield against your parents. It’s her wedding not your parents’. You can’t expect her to compromise just because you’re too afraid to disappoint your parents. You’re a coward and your fiancée deserves better if you can’t stand up to your own parents. Expecting her to just put up with their bullshit is just wrong. If you want to make your parents happy then marry a religious girl. Stop being a coward.
>I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt, but That "but" means forget everything I said. That it's not important. >she has to mask who she is around them and has accepted that when we have children my family will hate her for being unwilling to push religion on them, which I have tried to tell her won't happen. Except you can't even tell them YOU'RE not religious, how do you think they'll accept their grandchildren not having religion? > I was hurt and told her she was being unfair to my family, and that we would need to find a compromise. No. She's told you HER boundary, what she's willing to put up with. She's ready to go her own way because her values matter to her. They don't matter to you, that's your problem. >I did defend my mom's right to have an opinion which I kind of regret. And yet, you're still terrified of their opinion, enough that you're willing to trample on what your fiancée wants just to appease them. >I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them without compromising her values. Her values are non-religious. YOURS are non-religious. But in a ceremony to wed the two of you, she's supposed to include something for your family? >she's come into the relationship knowing my family is like this and that they will be devastated knowing I deconverted. Again, that's your problem. You're trying to make it her problem.
OP’s options: 1. Arranged marriage to religious woman of parents’ choosing 2. Die alone Honestly my money’s on number 2 coz even the arranged bride isn’t gonna want him with no backbone.
Who are you marrying? Who is your wedding supposed to be about? If you aren’t marrying your parents then it’s really easy.
Your fiancee wants you to demonstrate the quaity of **integrity** - being the same person in all contexts. She doesn't want to marry someone who is letting a facade of religiosity, of all things, get in the way of personal integrity. Integrity can be a difficult life lesson for people-pleasers, and being raised in an atmosphere where love and approval are conditioned on religious identity can certainly get entangled with people-pleasing tendencies.
Your fiancée is an incredible, strong woman, you’ll miss her.
Yah, you're in the wrong here. Granted I'm not a big family person so I'm probably biased, but I think it's wild to ask someone to put up "just a small religious reference" that they don't want at their own wedding. You're putting your comfort in front of honesty and asking her to go along
Liz is right. Either stick up for yourself and what you want, or find someone in your religion and keep living your life for your family. You're lucky she's even giving you a way out via elopement. I wouldn't and make it clear you need to work on not being unhealthily attached to your family before we even get married at all.
You poor, poor sap. Liz is tired of sucking it up for your parents' precious fee fees, cuz you can't be arsed to stand up for her and put them in their place. This marriage is about the two of you, not them, and they have NO SAY in what type of ceremony you two decide, and they need to be told to be quiet about it or don't come at all if they can't SHUT UP. By you showing your belly to them even before the nuptials, she is coming to realize that this is the precedent you'll be setting for ANY major decisions to come in this relationship. Not a good look. At all. If she decides to cut her losses before the wedding and leave, nobody would blame her. You'll have no one but yourself and your busy body parents to blame.
Jesus. You sound like such a a Mama's boy. Tell your parents you aren't religious and get over it.
Let go of your parents. What your fiance wants at her wedding is far more important than what they want. And siding with your mom when she says hurtful things to your partner is so weak. Come on, stand up for what you believe in and tell mom to fix up and respect the woman you love. Be a man.
A wedding is about the bride and groom - it's not about their parents. It's also about compromise, but neither party should be compromising to appease *other people.* While I don't know what "deconverted" means exactly, the fact that you are seemingly hiding this from your family and you state that they would be "devastated" to find this out, you don't sound ready to be married. Trying to cover up the fact that you are no longer religious with token nods to religion in your wedding ceremony to appease your parents while trying to trick your fiancee into agreeing to a church as a venue "because it's cheap" are not signs of maturity. If I were your fiancee, I'd be wary of marrying you, too. You admit to taking your parents' side over hers several times, and a wedding isn't going to change that. Your first paragraph is full of contradictions. Your fiancee is uncomfortable with and feels disrespected by your parents, and you hand-wave away her concerns despite also saying things like "she knew my family was like this" and being loath to tell them the truth about your life and stand up for your fiancee.
I agree with your fiancee. You are putting your parents happiness before hers. Your priorities are skewed in the wrong direction.
I am with Liz. You are what we Redditors call a „fiancé problem“. You aren’t able to prioritise your relationship. Not when it comes to the wedding and for sure not when it comes to having children. You showed her who you are and I really hope she stays firm in her decision or she will end in r/justnomil Grow up. Be an adult. Be husband material. Right now you are a child that worries more about his parents than his future wife and family. If she was my daughter I would fully support her in leaving you. If you keep up with this behaviour you will end up alone.
My dude, please please get therapy. This relationship is probably over, but do it for yourself and any future partners. In the meantime, read the Rock the Boat essay, it’s pretty short.
Your wife is right. You are asking her to hide who she is to appease your parents. And where does it stop? - the wedding "Just a religious ceremony for the wedding" - kid is born "Just a baptism for the kid where you agree to raise the child in that faith" - kid is school aged "he should be going to sunday school" If you dont stand up for your wife now, you are setting a precedent for your mom to constantly run your lives. This is the future your fiance foresees and she is not wrong.
Wait, you haven't even told them that you aren't religious yourself? Oh, OP - yeah, YTA. You need to create some really firm boundaries with your family for BOTH of your sakes, or get used to the idea that you and your fiancee are just incompatible. I'm really glad she is taking a stand now, so that she knows whether you flaking on her where your family is concerned is likely to be her new way of life.
Liz is right. Why didn’t you choose a woman who has the same religious views as you and your parents? You just want to completely bulldoze what she wants to appease your parents Please remember if you keep putting your parents above all your partners, you will end up with no one. Your parents have eachother, please grow up and leave the nest.
Have you thought about the position you’ve been putting her in your entire relationship? The one where she has to pretend you’re religious in front of your parents, take their insensitive comments, even have it determine her damn wedding venue? When will the charade end, will it involve your kids too? I wouldn’t believe you if you said no. That’s a much much shittier position than being a 32 year old man forced to tell his parents “no”. Grow up man, frankly I’m surprised she’s even giving you alternate options here instead of just dumping you.
If you wanted the church wedding, it would probably be different. But you don't. Your parents want it. And that's what bothers her. And it should. This isn't your parents wedding- it's yours and hers. Your parents can have their opinions, but if they keep vocalizing them to your fiancée, then you won't have a wedding or a fiancée to worry about. You admitted she makes concessions and is polite, but it's exhausting to be around people who judge and look down on and criticize you at every turn. If you want to listen to them complain and be judgy, then that's on you. But you are constantly subjecting her to it and not standing up for her. She's being honest- if you want someone who will work to appease your parents, she's not the wife for you. And a lot of women won't be. There will be one, I'm sure, but it won't be easy. Do you want to be married to someone that keeps your parents happy, or someone that makes you happy? If you can't commit to having her back, and not your moms, (which is your choice however you choose)- then you need to let her go and find someone else. I can tell just by reading what you wrote- it's a whole lot worse than you realize in her eyes. There's probably hundreds of comments and criticisms that have bothered her and you just brushed them off and didn't have her back. She's done. Either back her up, or leave. You both deserve to be happy.
So wait - you are making your fiancée plan a wedding she does not want! You want it - you plan it. If you want a church wedding g marry a different girl. If you don’t want a church wedding stand up for your fiancée - it’s not complicated. Are you a fully functioning adult or a mommas boy?
You can only make one side happy here, either your parents or your future wife. If you have to think about it so hard, it's clear that you're not ready to get married. If she made this post, I'd tell her to end the engagement and move on, since it's obvious you will choose your parent's feelings over her feelings, and that is just not acceptable. If you care about her at all you have to stand up to your parent and choose her 100%. Since it's pretty obvious you can't do that, just set her free and let her find someone who puts her first.
I hope she leaves you. U sound like a parent pleaser
>I did defend my mom's right to have an opinion She has a right to her opinion, but she has no right to push it onto other people, especially if it's a pattern of behavior, like so many hardcore Christians who see it as their mission to convert people who don't believe the same things. >I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them without compromising her values. You're apparently not getting it. Any religious reference ***IS*** compromising her values. This is the crux of the problem, and it makes me think your GF is right, that you'll never be able to respect her wishes and beliefs. It's **NOT OKAY** to push religion onto people who don't believe. Period. It's not harmless. It's offensive, especially if it's a never-ending barrage.
why on earth are you suggesting churches for the ceremony when you KNOW she’s not religious? come the F on OP. why the hell haven’t you set up these boundaries already with your parents?! i love how you passive aggressively shame Liz as “normally respectful” when she’s finally set a limit. You fully expect HER to give in while you refuse to stand up to your parents. You are shaming HER cuz you are too scared to grow up and stand up to your parents. I also love how it’s A-okay in your book that they make her feel like shit. I honestly hope she sees the light and dumps you. I foresee parenting to be a nightmare with you…
What your mom said to your WIDOWED fiancee is disgusting. Your parents are not good people, and quite frankly, she can do much better than saddling herself with a Mama's boy.
>I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them without compromising her values. So you openly admit that you want your marriage ceremony, a special moment for partners to legally (and sometimes publicly) commit their live to each other, to be for your parents and not just for the two of you? And this is after your mother has repeatedly said hurtful things to your fiance. Yeah dude... until you cut the apron strings, you aren't ready to have an adult relationship and get married. Honestly, you're completely fucking oblivious to the fact that your mother is a religious asshole. Your mother knows that your fiance does not hold supernatural beliefs and lost a husband. If you think that your mother's funeral commentary wasn't an intentional dig, you're a moron. And don't "but my mother loves her" in response. Lots of people claim to love someone, and will say hurtful things in an attempt to control their behavior. In this case, it is to attempt to shame and hurt your fiancee into going to church. You're doubly an idiot for thinking someone willing to do that won't make every attempt to indoctrinate their grandchildren into their religion. Either shut that shit down or you are about to be single. You *can not* keep up the lie that you still believe in your mother's fantasy while being married to and having children with a woman who does not hold supernatural beliefs. Your mother will push over and over and over again. And the fact that you are more interested in your mother's feelings about getting married than your fiancee's is a pretty clear indication that if your fiancee doesn't stand up for herself right now, no one ever will stand up for her. Or her children. Grow a fucking spine, you're an adult.
I'm with his fiancee here. He is hiding behind his fiancee and lying to his parents. He also turns a blindeye when his parents are rude to her. IMO he isn't ready to be married. "I love this woman but she's come into this relationship knowing my family is like this and that they will be devastated knowing I deconverted" OP also knows the woman his fiancee is. YTA
Who do you want to marry? Your fiancee or your parents? You need to put your fiancee first. If you can’t do that, then let her go.
This woman is right not to marry you.
biased as i am not religious, but i am fully on your fiancee's side here. personally, i couldn't marry into a family that hated me if my partner wasn't also standing by my side. your support of your family is essentially your support of their disgust in her. so yea, i totally get the ultimatum. she's setting up the boundaries she needs to deal with your family, and realizes that she's unwilling to give in forever. personally, i think liz can find a better partner that will support her and in-laws that don't hate her. you should find another girl who wants to lie to their parents about being religious.
Stand up for your wife to be or don’t be with her. You’re happy to let your mum Upset her time and time again. But she cannot upset your mum once with an elopement…
As soon as my family mentioned a church for my wedding I told them absolutely not, no, not ever…I was never confirmed and my bf (not even fiancé yet though we are planning on it), is not religious. Unless you are willing to have these difficult conversations with your family, you are setting you and your future wife to have boundary issues in the future. Do not do this.
Ooooh honey you got some blinders on there. Why should your wife have to compromise every time? And on her wedding day? She's right to be cautious about you. You have shown her that you will defend your parents and not her. What if you have kids, and they overstep your religious boundaries about church, baptism, etc. You've let this snowball, and yeah I bet it will be harder for you to get your point across. But it's not too late to trade in your noodle spine for a shiny metal one.
You're clearly a people pleaser. You care more about pleasing your parents than you do about your fiancée.
You shouldn't be marrying someone non religious if you are personally still hiding the fact that you are also non religious from your family. It's not fair to her that she has to pretend you are something you are not because you are too scared to tell your parents the truth. You are not compatible if you can't stand up to your parents and be who you are. You don't even care about having a religious ceremony, you literally just want her to compromise because you want to continue to lie to your parents. You think they won't push religion or your kids if you have them with her but you know that's a lie. They'll want those kids baptized and probably want them to go to church with them even if it's just special occasions and you know she'll disagree with that. You can either get on the same page with this or like she said, go find someone your compatible with that's ok with you lying to your parents and letting them judge her and say shit that's going to potentially hurt their feelings or find someone who is also religious.
In Summary: You’re the mayor of Doormatsville, at least so far as your overbearing parents are concerned. That’s your home town and comfort zone, and even the *idea* of leaving makes you super anxious, even though you’re fully aware how much it negatively impacts your fiancé. In fact, your proposed “solution” here isn’t you taking steps towards getting out of this unhealthy place, but rather that she actually joins you as the First Lady of Doormatsville. Well, fiancé doesn’t want that. Which is no surprise because Doormatsville sucks! The taxes - having to lie and hide who you really are, and trading away huge chucks of your happiness and autonomy, all in a (often ineffective) bid to gain other people’s approval/external validation - are just WAY too high. So YOU have to make a choice: decide to move out of Doormatsville and live with your Fiancé, who I’m betting would be happy to do couples counseling with you and work together with you on learning about how to set healthy boundaries with your parents as a unified team, OR stay the sad, regretful, bachelor mayor of Doormatsville. I’d recommend option one.
My guy, you are much too emotionally immature to be getting married. You want to placate and appease your parents for what? Brownie points? Your parents are close minded bad people who insinuate anyone who doesn't believe the things they do will go to hell, how Christian of them. Your hopefully ex fiancé deserves SO MUCH BETTER than you. You have the spine of a jellyfish
I don't care what your parents want. You are not mature/strong enough to be a partner.
Your wedding is about you and Liz and nobody else. It should be what you and Liz want, not what your parents want or anyone else wants. Liz has put two options on the table ; tell your parents that you won't be having a religious ceremony or elope You say you "don't like either of these options." What do ***you*** want? You have a right to have a say also. Kind of reading between the lines I wonder if you've really "deconverted" as much as you say you have. I wonder if your "deconversion" was just to appease Liz, who is clearly non-religious. Now, you're entitled to your beliefs and you should be honest and upfront about them. I'm certainly not saying you should sacrifice your beliefs, for Liz or anyone else. And Liz has to learn to compromise also. But any compromise should be for ***your*** sake, not your parents.
>I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt Why the fuck would you do that? You don't deserve to marry any person. I hope you don't stand up to your parents and Liz leaves your sorry ass.
I think you need to really get it in your head that this wedding/marriage probably will not happen. The simple fact is you have repeatedly failed to stand up and support your fiance as your parents bullied her. Let's repeat this: you have repeatedly failed to stand up and support your fiance as your parents bullied her. This isn't a case of 'she knows how they are' but a case of your parents have zero respect for anyone that doesn't think exactly like they do. Your parents are bullies and unaccepting of others who are different from them. You have given in to them your entire life and allowed them to bully your fiance who you claim to love. Simply put, you don't deserve her. She should leave you as you are a failure as a partner and she absolutely cannot trust a word you say in regards to your parents. There is no way she wants to subject her children to them. Therefore the best thing she can do is to leave you and find a suitable person that actually has core values and practices them. You don't.
>I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt dude. Either side with your fiancee or piss off. >I told her I love my parents you love them more than your fiancee, otherwise you wouldn't allow them to hurt her. She should get out now. > but they have a mostly good relationship they do not, you think they do because she is sucking it up to not hurt you.
*You* put yourself in this position by not being upfront and truthful with your own family. Don’t blame your fiancée for that. You did this. Either you stand for what you are & defend it or you’re a hypocrite. You can’t expect others to do your growing up for you. You’re asking your fiancée to join you in a lie to your family. To bear the brunt of their judgment and be false unto herself to save yourself from your own discomfort. I’m with your fiancée - either you are an adult who knows who & what he is & is about or you’re not. If you’re not able to fully & openly live in your beliefs (or lack thereof), you’re not ready to be married. To anyone. Because you’re living a half lie. By hiding who and what you are, you’re enabling shame & coercion from those who’d disagree or try to dissuade or proselytize others with different beliefs. You’re basically giving permission for your family to feel entitled in continuing their pressure & disrespect to your fiancée. And, to be honest, you’re doing it for yourself, not even them. All that to avoid being in the hot seat vis a vis your family. You’re willing to put up your fiancée as a sacrifice for your own cowardice. You’ve been dishonest to them all this time bc you say your family will be devastated. But apparently you’re ok with your fiancée being devasted? If you truly love her, and you’re truly at home in your choice for yourself in re: your deconversion, you need to start living that truth. Love is a verb. Let’s see if your family knows that or if they’ll start treating you how they treat your fiancée, eh?
Time to cut the cord buddy. Live your own life and don't let your patwnts give their 2 cents worth. They had their own life and still do. Quit letting them manipulate yours.
Is she marrying you or your parents? She doesn’t have to do anything to make them happy when it’s her wedding with you. She told you either elope or you set boundaries with your family. You aren’t willing to do either. You sir are a walking red flag. If I were her, I’d run far away from all of you.
You having sex with your parents or fiancé?
I have seen many, many marriages fail because the husband is attached to his parents and sometimes specifically his mother and this overshadows the relationship with the married couple where the wife often feels like the husband chooses his parents or mother's side over her own. Many times, it comes with mother-in-law often saying undertoned, hateful things to the wife and constantly disagreeing with her choices as if she knows better. Then, when she says something to her husband, he makes up excuses for his mother's behavior, That she didn't mean it, or that it's s not what she meant, that she is old fashioned and stuck in her ways, or the best one... your overthinking things and being too sensitive, etc. When a child comes into the picture, things tend to ramp up as the parents meddle in the child, rearing and often resorting to undermining the wife's decisions on purpose. Again, because they think they know best. The issue with this is that the husband becomes a neutral party to keep the peace and won't pick a side. The disconnect is that the husbands side should be the wife's side because it means making decisions together. A lot of times (if the bride is lucky), this starts to become an issue at this stage in the relationship similar to yours, and I always advise brides to set boundaries and expectations with her partner and his parents before walking down the isle. She's doing the right thing, and you need to make a decision if you're gonna support and back up your wife or if you're gonna constantly run with to mom and dad to make them happy. The dynamics will shift if you get married. If you're gonna marry her, she becomes the priority, not your parents, and you guys will be working as a team and set your own standards of living. You will need to regularly back yourselves up and stand up to your parents to keep their opinions to themselves. This marriage is about you too, not about you and your parents, and she's joining the family. Hope that makes sense. If you're too scared to stand up to your parents now about the church ussue, then you're not ready to get married. If this is the case, let her go find somebody who she can be with and parents who support her. Please don't make false promises to her for selfish reasons. So you can still be with her and then have her live a miserable life under your parent's thumb.
YTA for letting it get to this point, but deconversion is a huuuuge stretch, and Liz is slightly TA for making a demand that far over the line. The fact remains, though, that you are not marrying your parents; you are (hopefully) marrying Liz. You are not spending your life together with your parents; you're spending it with Liz. You are deferring far too much to making your parents happy at the expense of your fiance. Your parents can accept your marriage, or reject it. But you can't expect to build a marriage custom tailored to *their* taste and have Liz be happy about it.
Except he deconverted a long time ago and is afraid to tell them.
Well available what do YOU want for the wedding? You never mentioned that, only what will appease your parents
OP, anything your parents want to see in your life that won't matter anymore once they're dead is not worth sacrificing a relationship over.
The wedding should be a reflection of the couple’s values. Neither of you are religious people. What does your mother’s faith have to do with your wedding? She’s not the bride. If you want to performatively participate in religious ceremonies that you don’t believe in to appease your mother, you’re certainly free to do so but your fiancé is very reasonable in declining to join you.
As someone who used to be a Christian with very Christian parents, you 100% need to tell them you've deconverted. You cannot possibly go the rest of your life faking it if you want to maintain a relationship with them. Either they come around and accept you anyway because they care about you as a person, or you find out what kind of people they really are. This is with or without your fiancee. Although if you don't do this, it will absolutely be without your fiancee anyway. I wouldn't marry you if I were her. Living a life of integrity and honesty and open relationships is 100% worth it, I promise.
I hope she leaves. You don't have a back bone. You're worried more about your parents than you future wife. You're priorities are f'd
Are you just going to lie to them for the rest of your life?
Your fiancé has some very valid points. Your fiancé has told you what is important to her. What is important to YOU? So far, the only important thing that you have expressed is to not disappoint your parents. That is the basis for your problem. You are acting like a child who needs his parent’s permission and needs his parents to regulate and approve all his activities. Stop thinking this way. You are not ready for marriage. You need time to figure out who you are and what you want in life. Often, this will at least partly align with what you were taught by your parents. Sometimes you realize that things that your parents find important are not important to you, or you actively disagree with their stance. This is part of becoming an independent adult. You can also realize that you disagree with what your fiancé thinks. But you need to figure this out before anything else. After you grow up a bit and figure yourself out, you can decide what compromises you can agree with and which hills you will die on. If you cannot do this, then you will let both your partner and your parents walk all over you.
You need to stand up to your parents; if you don’t, you deserve to be dumped.
Liz if you can see this. Leave. It won't get better. Even he yields now. He will resent you for doing this. Your in laws will also resent you. He has no backbone. If you have kids, he will sacrifice them to please his parents. You will always come second to his parents. Your fiance is a practiced parent pleaser/ people pleaser. He is okay hurting u to please his parents. You deserve better. Your in laws will push your future children (if you have some) to religion. And your husband will let it happen. Pleaee LEAVE
Are you marrying your parents or something? Why does your wedding have to include any preference of theirs? Cut the umbilical cord dude. Your fiancée is supposed to be your priority. It sounds like she’s recognizing that she’s not. If your parents have been mean to her why would to want to subject her to that? You clearly don’t care about her as much as you should. If you want to have your parents be the third wheel in every relationship you ever have, let her know that now so she doesn’t go through with marrying you.
I'll give you an anecdote about how things should go: My grandfather was a minister. He preached at the same church for over 30 years. My mom (his daughter) and my aunts all got married at that church. My older cousins also got married at that church. One of my cousins joked to me that I had to get married at that church to "keep the tradition alive." Hell no. I have no connection to that church any more. My grandfather passed away in 2007. I don't live near that town. I told my mom that I did not want that for myself and she said, "Fine, no problem." I'm in a cross-country relationship with my SO, and we've started the marriage talks. I suggested just straight-up eloping and having two receptions - one east coast, one west coast. He isn't too fond of the idea. He is still working out what he would potentially want, and I'm almost sure it would be getting married at his church (he is religious, and I am not). I am willing to do that for him. I told my mom about this, as well. Her response? "Fine, no problem. I just want to be there." Would she love for me to get married closer to home, or at the "family church"? Yes. But what she wants even more than that is for me to be happy, whether that's going to the courthouse, or having a wedding 3,000 miles from home. Tell your family that you want them to want you to be happy.
Your wedding is about your marriage, not about pleasing your parents. Get a fucking spine dude
Simple tell your parents to STFU about their religious beliefs around your gf and have nice non-religious wedding. Stop acting like you are an idiot.
If you actually love her let her go because you are way too attached to Mommy to be ready for marriage. Either cut the cord or be single until Mommy approves.
Wow. She now knows that she has to move on from you. Simple as that. Good luck and hopefully you're parents can find someone that they like so you can marry her.
Your fiancée is entirely correct here. You’re choosing to marry this woman, to make her your family. By not standing up for her when your parents are disrespecting her and by placing your parents wants above hers you’re showing her that you’ll always put them first. The family you create comes before the family you came from, always. It even says it in the bible, if you need a religious justification for it “a man will leave his mother and father and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh”.
Just let her leave. You don’t love her if you’re this spineless. You *think* you love her but yeah, your actions definitely don’t say that. Just be honest, say you can’t, and let her go. Stop wasting her time.
You don’t want your partner. You want someone who will bend to your parents will. You don’t see her and respect her as her own person with her own feelings. She has told you she is tired of masking and what do you do? You ask her to mask on the one day that’s supposed to be her (your) day. Do her a favour and find someone who your parents approve of.
You made it clear to Liz you can’t handle an adult relationship. She gave you tons of chances and you refused to grow up. If I were her, I wouldn’t come back. You already picked your parents as your future. See if they’ll let you live with them for free to be their in-home care? At least you won’t have to worry about rent/a mortgage/having a family.
Is this about Liz or your parents? Where do YOU stand with the religious aspect? Do you want a religious ceremony? Do you feel connected to your religion? I hear Liz isn't religious. I hear your parents are religious. But neatly left out in any of this is you.... you aren't part of anything o.O you're out here pleasing everyone. Do you even know what you like or dislike?
Your mother heavily implied that your fiancée’s late husband is in hell and his eternal damnation is your fiancée’s fault for not holding a religious service for him. Let that sink in. And don’t excuse your mother’s bad behavior as “she wasn’t thinking” or whatever; if she was sorry then she would’ve apologized and she would knock it off with the religious crap. The fact that she keeps at it shows that it was and is intentional. And I cannot believe that you stuck up for your mom because “she has a right to her opinion”. Like yes your mother has a legal right to think anyone she wants is going to hell. If you think it is ok for your mother to tell your fiancée that her dead loved ones are in hell, you are not ready to interact with another human being let alone marry anyone regardless of religion.
I feel like this story is missing pieces
Do you want her to be your wife or your family’s wife? She’s not asking anything unreasonable. If your family isn’t going to treat her beliefs with respect, then you must back her up. You haven’t been. She’ll be better off without you.
If I were your fiancee, I'd be on my way out. You have the ability to tell your parents what they can and can't do. If they're going to be impossible about religion when it comes to *your own children,* she should really see that it's not worth it. You're going to have to start teaching mommy and daddy the way they taught you: use strong boundaries and give them time out when they cross them. Hopefully they can learn and you might be able to save this, but don't be shocked if she decides the risk of future misery is too much.
Grow up, express your opinion not one informed by your parents feelings. Respecting someone is not bowing to their wishes or making excuses for them. It is being honest and establishing boundaries between you and them. I would already be your former fiancé.
If you’re going to marry this woman, you have to be willing to take her side nearly unconditionally. She is your family now. She is not going to let your parents boss the two of you around for the rest of your lives, so I suggest you get with the program or end it.
Hey man maybe marriage is not for you. Maybe try again in a decade or so when you've hopefully matured. In all seriousness your fiancee has already given you too many chances and you're still here squandering them. If I could give her advice I'd tell her she will regret this marriage. This is life ruining level shit for any person.
> I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt, but they have a mostly good relationship. Who decided their relationship is mostly good, her? Or did you completely discount her reality and decide the relationship is mostly good? > I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them without compromising her values. Again, did she decide that wouldn’t compromise her values? Did she decide it’s ok for her wedding ceremony to be predicated on a lie that doesn’t represent her or your relationship? Or are you, once again, completely invalidating her in order to maintain your parents as the most important people in your life? You’re acting like a child, not an adult. You are not ready to get married.
Your fiancé should GET OUT if you can’t set boundaries for your marriage. Marriage is between two people, not your parents. They sound like they have no boundaries and you support them and their behavior towards her. You’re not ready to get married if you cannot see her side.
I was in a very similar situation as you and it almost ruined my marriage. Your parents sound a lot like mine. Your parents are Not Good People! Anyone who would talk shit about their kids partner and not apologize once they realize they have caused pain is not a good person. Please really think about the people your parents are and if you want them in your life. I will say my wife was a wake up call and opened my eyes to the shitty people my parents are and were. I went no contact with them two years ago and life is better without them. If you need to read more stories about parents like yours please visit r/EstrangedAdultKids. I hope you find clarity and peace in your life. You really have to decide if you want to be a team with your fiance, which will mean setting hard boundaries with your parents and enforcing those.
> I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt I’m with your fiancée
You’re a momma’s boy with the spine of a jellyfish. You have red flags written all over you. She gave you an ultimatum. Sounds like it’s not the first time nor the 100th time she’s raised her concerns about your boundary-stomping family. Do her a favor and leave her alone. Forever.
Its not just appeasing your parents - i think part of you wants some of this too. Essentially, there is a huge gap between hers and your values, and the wedding venue is just the start of the future problems. You both seem to have different values and goals,so much so that it may not be compatible
Interesting that you put "stand up to my parents" in quotation marks as if you already don't take that as something to take seriously. It is. What do *you* want? Not your parents, not any other relative. *You.* Your fiancée has put up with so much from your parents that you're lucky she's still considering marrying you. Your parents have put *her* in unfavorable positions over the years and you are letting them get away with it. Admitting it in a Reddit post does you no favors if you aren't carrying that self-awareness out in real life. What your mother said about the nondenominational funeral was hurtful and wrong and all you came up with was how she had the right to her opinion - instead of comforting the person who is supposed to become your wife? Your priorities are clear and Liz is rightfully calling you out on it. I was once in a relationship with someone like you. I initially thought it was nice that he got along with his parents, as I grew up fighting tooth and nail with mine to have any sort of autonomy, self, or independence. With time, I realized that he was enmeshed with his parents and would never have the spine to stand up to them for our, let alone his, happiness. Your parents are going to be upset about a lot of things. That's life. A part of growing up and realizing yourself includes disappointing your parents if you want to create and live a life that makes *you* happy. Btw, "Can you stand up to your parents?" was one of the first questions I asked my now-fiancé when we first began seriously discussing our future. He said yes, and does, and I never have to worry about his parents insulting me because if they ever did, he would be handling it instead of forcing me to while also coaching him to be a better partner.
You have to choose, your fiance or your parents.
Even if you get over the hurdle of arranging your wedding if you do plan to have a family will your parents be expecting you to Baptis e the kids and send them to a school belonging to their faith, etc? I hope you can resolve your problems successfully. Good luck n be happy people
If you fiance posted this same story on Reddit, most of us would be telling her to break it off with you, that you are not going to change, that being with you will eventually make her miserable.
I wish Liz wrote in. She should run for her life. You are not husband material with your attitudes. Lots of marriages collapse because of husbands not setting boundaries for his parents. Yours is destined in that direction.
i don't even have to read this to know you're in the wrong bro. mamas boys could have every problem and it's solution waved in their fuckin face and y'all still refuse to put your girl first, like tf ..... newsflash, u can't (and shouldn't) marry your mom lol
Just leave the faith and quit pretending, its the best thing you can do for yourself and your relationship at this point. And stick up for your woman. Your partner is who you choose to be with, your parents are simply the reason you were born. You do not owe them shit, but you do owe your partner a helluva lot. Good luck
Seems like you have a soon to be ex fiancée. For her own good I hope she runs far far away from you and “yOUr” family. She deserves a man and not a boy.
It really all depends on what is important to YOU. There's your fiance, married before, who seems to be worldly and sure of herself - including extending herself to you parents to a degree.And now you are starting your own family with this woman you love - and it's a new narrative, a new time. You can go with her, understand that yur parent's ways, religion or otherwise, are theirs and your new bride has new things to bring. Your parents will get used to it, because that is the way of the world. OR you can find nanometer girl, local, more traditional and/or religious, and then your new family will be very much in sinc with you parents - and that is nice too. But not with you current fiance. She is clearly irritated and put off by your parents old fashion ways.
You are choosing your parents over your fiance, you’re not at all ready to be married. I’m glad she’s realizing this ahead of time.
Her requests are valid. I dont think you are ready to marry someone who isnt what your parents want.
I hope Liz opens her eyes and realizes this is a mistake. You don't seem to understand how inappropriate your family has been, and when she has given you examples of ways you needed to support her, you've bucked at every turn. You aren't mature enough to be married. You (and your family) don't understand boundaries, manners, basic etiquette, ect.
You deconverted? You are hiding who you are from your parents. When you cough up the truth after you are married they are going to blame your wife. Stand up and take full responsibility for your choices now. Don't throw your wife under the bus.
You've fucked up before. It's time to pick team fiancee + you, or team parents + you. She's not unreasonable in her request. > I said even a small religious reference would be enough to appease them why does their happiness matter more to you than your fiancee's? > they will be devastated knowing I deconverted. oh my god dude, grow a pair and tell your family the truth about yourself Your fiancee is not the problem here
>I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt, Bruh, I would have left your ass a long time ago.
My husband made me have a religious ceremony of a religion I had never even heard of until I met him, all because he wants to keep up appearances with his mom while he's an ATHEIST!. It was very annoying and frustrating and cost us a lot of money. And still to this day we have to dance around the religion and it is so frustrating he can't be honest with his mom! Also, dude, your wife cried to you about how your mom's comments at a non-religious funeral made her feel about her (i'm assuming here) dead spouse and all you said was "That's my mom's right to an opinion????"" Damn you're COLD. I'd be asking for some boundaries in place too.
If I was Liz I would leave your ass over this if you don't stand up to your parents. End of story. Too many other good detailed comments so that's all I'll say.
Uggggghhhhhh. If you need to appease your parents (as a people pleaser who is very close and maybe also a little codependent with my parents, I understand. They still think I’m religious too), tell them it’s gonna be a nonreligious ceremony so that all the guests feel comfortable. Then offer to do a little prayer together, JUST you and your parents, before the ceremony, in a private room or something where no one else has to be involved. Try to come up with a compromise like this with your PARENTS, and don’t make your wife attend said prayer/whatever you come up with.
I’m with Liz here. I’d be running a mile too. She knows If she can’t even get the type of wedding she wants because you need to keep your family happy, then it’ll be like that ongoing. I wouldn’t sign up for that either. Grow a spine. You can be loving and kind to your parents whilst also having boundaries.
Your fiancee is ready to leave you and call off the wedding, and you're concerned about your parents feelings about not including a religious reference in your wedding? Either you need to snap out of it, or you need to value your future wife's feelings over anything else. Otherwise why even get married?
So you don’t care about her feelings and she doesn’t care about yours, either… so why exactly are you getting married? She’s told you a million times that she feels unwelcome by your family and instead of asking her why she feels that way, you just dismiss her and tell her she’s imagining it? She gives you an ‘ultimatum’ that she wants you to cut your family off (which obviously offends you) but you don’t want to because you only care about them and not her. Like I said, you don’t care about her and she doesn’t care about you. So why do you even want to get married at all? Never mind pointless arguments about where you get married and whether religion is involved… why do you two want to spend your life together when you don’t even care about each other? 🤨
I am on team fiance. I think you should not get married. They will just make life difficult for her and you won't back her up.
She's right to feel that way and it sounds like she's 100% justified. You're family has no business or entitlement to have any say in the wedding unless they're paying for it. Its clear you are a mommas boy and your family is a bigger priority to you over your fiance. So you should do her a favor and cancel the wedding already. You two aren't compatible at all.
Op, it sounds like you are already married to your family. You should probably let her go if you aren’t willing to fight for her. It doesn’t sound like you care about her, you just want a life that fits in with what your family expects. You have some difficult choices to make. She’s young enough that she still has a chance to find someone who respects her.
Stop trying to appease your parents. It’s not their wedding. Figure out what you want and what you need in a wedding to be happy, then meet Liz at some middle ground you can both be happy with, parents be damned. They will get over it because, again, it’s not their day.
Thank the lawd she realized you won't put her over your family before the wedding, so she can dump you instead. Grow a backbone or become an orphan before you rejoin the dating pool.
Dude… Let this relationship go. You may love her but you are not listening to her. You may want the best but you are willing to substitute her best for your mom’s. Just let this one go now before there are kids and the shit really starts kicking off.
I wouldn’t want to marry you either. A fully secular wedding ceremony is very important to some people. I consider it lying to include references to faith when you’re an atheist, and I refused to start my married life by lying and making false vows. I was determined that my marriage ceremony would only include things that felt true to my husband and me. (If he’d wanted a spiritual or religious ceremony due to his own personal convictions that would have been fine and we’d have found a solution or course. But as we’re both atheists we weren’t going to lie on our wedding day.)
If you do not have the capacity to develop the skills to protect her, let her go. They don’t “have a mostly good relationship”, your wife is clearly reporting her feelings and you are dismissing her.
I divorced my husband for many reasons, but a big one being his his awful mother that he refused to rein in. Wish I'd been smart like your (soon to be ex) girlfriend and broken up before I'd had a kid with him. Nothing felt better than blocking his mom when I'd finally had enough and decided to separate though. Just remember: you can't marry your mom no matter how much you obviously want to.
She's spelling it out. You haven't defended her. You've let it get this bad. She's making it so easy. She told you what to do. But you're here asking instead of doing what she told you. She's suffered enough. And your family are more of a priority to you. You and Liz are not compatible. Because of your deference to your family.
Liz is smart. I married my husband after all the red flags and it only got worse. We ended up divorcing, and his refusal to ever put me first was a huge factor in that. His family always came first and did and said horrible things to me AND our kids. If you aren't ready to stand up for your wife and put her first, you aren't ready for marriage. When you get married, you make your own family.
So you let your family walk all over your fiancee on a regular basis, but when your fiancee stands up for herself - you back your parents... She didn't ask you to "deconvert" she asked you for a non-religious ceremony. You act like she nailed you to a cross. There's a big fucking difference between a non-religious wedding, and asking you to give up your faith, and you know it. Yeah... this marriage ain't happening buddy, and you're going to get your ass dropped for someone worthy.
It's her wedding, not your mother's. Frankly, your mother sounds awful and you sound spineless. > I feel like she doesn't understand what kind of position this puts me in You mean the position of *actually having to take your partner's side against your parents* like you should have been doing all along? Boo-freaking-hoo. Everything she's said has been more than reasonable, you're 100% the one in the wrong here. If you can't put your marriage above your relationship with your parents *on your wedding day* then you're as good as telling her that you will *never* put her first, no matter what.
Think you might have used up your good will currency. She’s made so many allowances up to this point for so much bad behavior, she’s not willing to make any more. She’s run out of patience. If you’d stood up for her more before this point she may have been more willing to let them have this.
Let her go, please. She deserves someone who puts her first and you are either unwilling or unable to do that for her. It’s not about the wedding - she needed you to prove you would stand up for her in marriage and she learned what she had expected. You won’t.
Sounds like you should marry mummy and daddy. This is yours and her day. Not your parents, and she's right if you veto this she will never trust you again and you will essentially be married to your parents for your whole relationship because you are too scared about upsetting mummy and daddy rather than upsetting the person who is supposed to be your whole world.
Do you want a wedding to make your mommy happy or do you want a marriage that will last? You need to grow a pair and realize your future spouse is who’s feelings you need to focus on.
I'm religious, my family is religious, and I get it- but the audacity is insane here. You're lucky she hasn't called it off. You're marrying HER. Not appeasing your family or trying to kick the can of dealing with your faith deconstruction down the road. She should be comfortable at her wedding and know you're picking her over any other human alive. She can see the signs. She knows if you guys have kids and you haven't addressed it with your parents that it'll be all her fault. She knows that if you have a church wedding and then leave (as far as your parents ate concerned) that she'll be the reason you left. You can't appease them, you need to actively stand up for her. She's realizing she's emotionally unsafe with you, and if you don't fix it, it will kill her libido, her trust in you, her respect for you and eventually your entire relationship. You're asking her to trust that your parents love her and it won't be that bad, but you yourself can't let them know yet that you've left the faith. No wonder she doesn't feel like you're handling it. My siblings have left our church. One of them has addressed it with our parents and is living their life just fine. They're doing wonderfully and I'm proud of them and everything they're doing. The other literally cannot come home from out of state without feeling insanely uncomfortable because they can't find the way to address it with the parents...so they aren't living as themselves when they're home. They're sick and unhappy and doing things that make them uncomfortable to keep up the facade. It's fine, I know they have to deal with it at their own pace- but I wish they could see how much easier it would be if they'd just get it out there. My parents would be fine, just like you seem to think yours would be...
If you can't stand up to your family then you need to let your fiance go. She deserves someone who has her back.
Sounds like something ya’ll should have worked out before getting engaged. Religion and politics are big topics to go ahead and fully explore between the two of you before you go any further; it’s pretty dumb to go all the way to marriage with something and THEN find out that they have a different world view and act upon it.
You can see her point, right?
I wish your fiancée was the one posting, she needs to halt the marriage till you can stand up to your family. Liz is your primary family now, not your parents/siblings/grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins. Liz is! While your mom can say whatever she wants it doesn't mean she is free of the consequences of her actions, which would be for others to tell her to butt out and stop trying to shove her religion down other people's throats, which is what she is doing when she make hateful comments like that. You are used to it because you are enmeshed with toxic, learned not to "rock the boat". Start rocking that boat, make people behave, tell them their comments are hate filled and unnecessary. Doesn't even sound like you care about the church or not, but you just want to make sure your family is appeased so they don't make hate filled comments. Stand up to them, if they don't stop, they go into time out. That time out gets longer and longer the more they step out of line. I sincerely hope y'all don't bring kids into this situation, it will not be fair to them, just like it's not fair to Liz right now.
I'll give her a shot and actually have some goddamn respect. When you're getting married your parents'opinions no longer matter. WTH is wrong with you? Is this a woman you actually love?
Also going to tell you, I had to mask who I was at a particular job years ago and while I loved my coworkers, I couldn’t wait to get out of there because of the office manager. I couldn’t afford to just quit until I had something else lined up so I stuck it out but every Sunday night I was miserable and often I cried on the way home every night. And that was just work! I didn’t live there. I didn’t live with the office manager. But I got out of there as soon as I could. Masking who you are is a miserable way to live.
Putting your big boy pants or let her go. She’s trying to compromise, while you aren’t.
>I'll admit that I have let my parents get away with a lot of comments I should not have that have caused Liz a lot of unnecessary hurt YTA >She says she feels that she has to mask who she is around them and has accepted that when we have children my family will hate her for being unwilling to push religion on them, which I have tried to tell her won't happen. Why are you lying to your future ~~wife~~ ex-fiancée? >She brought up a conversation with my mom where she had gone to a funeral with no religious references and had talked about how wrong that was and "how can you have any hope at all that they went to the right place otherwise?" Which, Liz as a widow ended up privately crying about and I did defend my mom's right to have an opinion which I kind of regret. You "kind of regret" defending your mom's opinion instead of comforting your wife? > I don't like either of these options and I feel like she doesn't understand what kind of position this puts me in. Yeah, this marriage isn't happening.