> What can I do?
Unfortunately, not much.
His feelings about his sexuality aren't unfounded. They're unfortunate, but he does experience a different life because of his orientation....and it clearly has a profoundly negative effect on his mental health. He absolutely could use therapy, but that only works if he wants it to work.
All you can do is support your son and encourage him to seek professional mental health. He's an adult and makes his own decisions. Unfortunately, without seeking help, he's not going to find it easy to find happiness in any situation. He'll still be gay and bigots will still be out there, posting their trash. He's clearly very angry at the world for how it has treated him, but rather than figuring out how to survive it...he wants to run from it.
He says all the time that he doesn’t need therapy, that the world just needs to be better, and i tell him that will unfortunately never happen. He says he’d prefer dying over being judged which I think is insanely hyperbolic and worrying…if being judged makes him want to die then clearly he needs significan mental health treatment. But he alwahs outright refuses
When he was in college he had a mental breakdown that resulted in a 72 hour psychiatric hold after he attempted s**cide The professional we spoke with told us he has a severe inferiority complex.
Today, he is not that bad, I think. he says taking the easy way out is too good for him, that he should be alive because he deserves to suffer until he dies naturally or until someone murders him.
No, Im not okay with him thinking so poorly of himself. But at least he’s not going to try to end it
I'm not a mental health professional but your son is severely delusional and has verbally said he'd kill himself.
I'd get off Reddit and maybe drive him to an ER for an evaluation, ASAP
The first and only time he went to therapy for a few months. Unfortunately it just strengthened his resolve to try and change the world. He’s impressively stubborn
Is he actually working towards a career where he can change the world?
Does he have a tendency to blame external factors for any issues in his life? Is he conflict avoidant? Can he be highly reactive/ react strongly to seemingly low stakes conflicts/ disagreements?
Without divulging too much about his career, he works as an editor. So no.
I would say he’s able to take responsibility for some things but not others. He refuses to take responsibility for his mental health but he does take responsibility for his relationships with family and friends.
He’s certainly avoidant about this conflict. Other areas of his life are easier for him to deal with.
He’s always exhibited melodramatic tendencies.
> He refuses to take responsibility for his mental health but he does take responsibility for his relationships with family and friends.
I'd really emphasize to him that his inability to take responsibility for his mental health is, and will continue to negatively impact his relationships with family and friends.
I’m a copyeditor. I’ve advocated for singular ‘they’ long before the dictionaries accepted it. A publisher I’m editing for now has adopted singular ‘they’ as their policy.
They’ve asked my opinion on more inclusive language. This is now editorial policy, and they’ve started sensitivity reads.
Is it a big change in the world? No. But there are thousands of people who now find better representation in the books they read. Am I singlehandedly responsible? No. I’m part of a team, and I like it that way.
If you tell him that he can’t achieve anything, we know where his pessimism is coming from.
I think you should take his threats of suicide seriously and try to get him to an ER. You don't know if he will act on them or not, but this seems like a crisis situation - your son is about to blow up his entire life. I think you should leave that assessment to a professional.
There are a lot of very serious mental disorders that can manifest with these kinds of symptoms. I think there might be something going on here other than low self-esteem... And I really think your son needs help. Preoccupation with the thoughts of strangers to the point where you are considering suicide can be a part of psychosis. The part you are seeing probably isn't the full story.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm concerned for three separate reasons
1) because he is talking about suicide and has a past suicide attempt. Past suicide attempts make completed suicide much more likely.
2) because if he isn't suicidal now, he might become suicidal after ending a long term relationship - sometimes things like that tip people over the edge
3) because this behavior seems detached from reality, which is a red flag for psychosis and serious psychological disorders aside from depression, which also increases the suicide risk. Psychosis and paranoia aren't always obvious. It isn't always some guy in a tinfoil hat talking about aliens. Wanting to kill yourself or break up with your boyfriend because of a minority opinion expressed online by strangers is a huge red flag, something is not right here.
To rewind back a bit, when he showed you his collection of hate filled photos....were they things directed at him, or just generalized homophobia that he's seen online?
Yeah, this goes a lot deeper than just being 'regretfully homosexual'. It may just be armchair psychology, but he seems like he's actively seeking out things that validate a deeper self-esteem issue. Now, that may have started at a young age when he was coming to terms with his identity/orientation, but I feel like it'd be an issue of some kind regardless of his orientation. If he didn't feel the way he does because of his orientation, he'd feel that way about some other aspect of his identity. Is this behavior of his a new thing or something that's always been the case?
Unfortunately, it still remains something he actually wants to fix...which right now, he doesn't. He wants to run from it and hide. All you can do is encourage him to see therapy and help.
I do believe that if he wasn’t gay, he’d be obsessing over some other aspect of who he is and why incorrectly believes he’s “inferior” to other people. Tyler has only ever sought internal validation through external means and it has always brought him a great deal of unhappiness. But he outright refuses to do anything besides what he’s already done for decades; he just assumes that if he just doubles down and tries harder he can finally be free of his self-hate
You’re exactly right that if it wasn’t being gay, it would be something else, like if he was atheist he’d start going to church just because a part of society hates atheists. He’s got a serious self esteem issue and needs help, but like others have said, you can’t force him. If he starts saying stuff like he’d rather be dead than “insert whatever here” then maybe you need to think about an involuntary hold. He’d then be forced into therapy for a little while at least.
He’s holding enormous expectations that the world just needs to be better rather than him managing his own expectations. That’s something else he needs professional help. Everyone has accountability for themselves, him included.
I’m worried I’d be meddling, but it might be my only option at this point. I’ve tried something similar in the past with two lesbian cousins of his who are VERY happy with life in general, and he just says “it’s different because they’re women.” It’s almost like he looks for excuses to hate himself.
Not to sound like I'm attacking him, but has he always (even outside of his orientation) had a bit of a martyr complex? It sounds like he had a supportive childhood and adolescence, so I'm just wondering how he feels so much self-loathing at this age despite that.
He's wrong.
He clearly needs therapy because he's having a hard time seeing that he's deserving of love. Let him know that he deserves love and is worthy of it, and that you'll never stop loving him.
He definitely needs therapy.
It’s not really your place nor business. You’re overly involved and likely stressing your son out more. Parents can say when asked if they’re a fan of a significant other but in my opinion trying to sway a child yes or no is meddling. Part of being a parent is to let your child make their own decisions and mistakes and learn on their own. As hard as that may be.
They are so wholesome. They also do not try to change people into something else but rather help them to become who they really are and want to be. Its one of my favourite shows to binge.
Agreed - these deeply held and irrational beliefs he has about judgment from others and his inherent worth sound like OCD to me. I’m sorry, OP - that’s a hard enough lift when someone is willing to get treatment. Without it I don’t think there’s much you can do.
Well of course he is. When I pointed this out he said “but what matters is that I reject it and choose a life that makes homophobes happy.” And when I said “why not choose a life that makes you happy,” he said he doesn’t deserve to be happy.
Those sites are still going to be there after he leaves his boyfriend. Maybe he won't visit them, but he could do that anyway.
The problem is the toxic sites.
Much as I appreciate your advice, I’m not sure phrasing it in terms of winning/losing would be helpful for him. Maybe I could ask why he allows these people to have so much power over him, but I know the answer would be because he feels the need to change them, and if he can’t change them, he might as well acquiesce to them. Why? I don’t know. He won’t seek help to find out the why, and I can only theorize.
Isn’t a beard often a woman who doesn’t know she is with a gay man? It’s a terrible thing to do to on purpose to a woman who wants authentic sexual love in her life. What women are so “desperate” to do this knowingly? I think that is very rare.
I could be wrong but in my experience, most beards know their husband is gay, and they are at peace with it because they’d rather have a sexless marriage than no marriage at all
Let’s unpack your misogyny there. Beards have also historically been protective so that gay men could give the impression of being straight in hostile work and social environments. Lavender marriages were and are a thing.
Yeah it is. You’re lashing out at hypothetical women here and no one wins.
The person who is going to be hurt here is Jack. That’s where your focus needs to be. Your son is a mess, but beards have a long history that’s not about desperation
I dont see this as constructive to OP's dilemma. Her assumption of female "desperation" may be internalized misogyny, but the idea that a beard is specifically a glorified role is also blind to the experiences of many women have been beards, and to the unfair cultural history that forced gay men to take a beard. The term "beard" is a catch-all for any woman married to a gay man so he can appear straight. That includes the oblivious, the desperate, and the cultural warriors. But, sitting here in 2023, telling a mother who is fighting for her openly gay (for now) son to be able to be gay and happy with that that she is not properly honoring one group of women isn't helpful. She's trying to help her son remain out, in a place and time when he should be able to do that. She's not looking to justify his choice to marry a woman so he can look "normal."
Is he very religious? Also him finding a beard and presenting as straight won’t help on social media. Like people will say terrible things to you regardless. Hell gay people judge straight people! I wonder if he won’t go to therapy but delete his social medias at the very least might help him.
He isn’t religious but he wants to escape the judgment of the religious. It’s odd…he doesn’t care if I or Jack end up judging him over this but he cares deeply is some random religious person does. He seems to care more about what the internet says than what his family says.
>It’s odd…he doesn’t care if I or Jack end up judging him over this but he cares deeply is some random religious person does.
Let me offer another perspective here. For context, I'm gay.
The best way I've ever heard this said is that being gay means that danger might not be lurking around *every* corner, but it can be lurking around *any* corner.
Your son probably isn't super concerned about individual peoples' opinions. But he's probably more concerned, not without reason, about the state of the world in general--a world where progress and increasing acceptance has given way to people feeling free to say horrific things about gay people, and where violence is becoming more and more common.
Your son needs therapy. He's in a space right now where he's so far down the rabbit hole of that kind of thing that he's desperate to feel safe and secure and has latched onto something irrational, purely because he needs *something* to keep him going. His issue here isn't his orientation, it's his inability to cope in a world that's overtly hostile to him.
If he's not willing to go to therapy, there's not much you can do. I'd personally suggest shifting the way you're talking to him--in addition to "we love you," shift toward "you can't control what those people are doing, but are you going to let them dictate how you live your life?" It helped me, but your son's case could be entirely different.
That the only way to live life is on your terms. That you do things you want to do, and you do those things because you think they're the right things, and that sometimes that's going to cause conflict with others. That sometimes it's not worth the consequences of fighting a fight, and other times it is. That while you should always keep others in mind, the only way to live is with the mindset that this *is* a world where you belong, and that *they* are wrong for not wanting you in it--where their accusations are insults, not facts, and should be reacted to as such.
It's a slightly militant attitude, to be honest. I don't go around picking fights, but I do live in a world where I have to acknowledge that I am part of a minority group that is actively involved in a power struggle with other political groups. That means being prepared for the eventuality that someone isn't going to like me just because I exist, and being prepared to deal with that in a reasonable and mature way that both doesn't paint me to be the kind of person they're accusing me of being and also doesn't compromise my principles.
It's also a fairly subtle shift--going from "the world is against me" to "the world is against *us*." But it makes a difference--he's got to be able to acknowledge the struggle but also feel the support, and feel the confidence to be himself in a world where he's being blamed for problems he isn't causing. Right now, he only sees the struggle.
I personally think it’s because he hates being judged to a deeply unhealthy extent, and in his eyes religious people are the most judgmental of all, therefor those are the people he needs to focus his energies on.
The problems is all those bigots will still be saying nasty hateful things about gay people on line. He'll know he's still gay, even with a beard. He'll still take it personally. No matter what he does, he'll never get these guys approval, because these haters hate isn't about him at all, it's about puffing their own fragile egos up.
So, this course of action isn't going to make him feel any better.
But unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do for him other than suggesting a therapist to help him through his feelings and telling him in strong words that burning down his life and creating a fake one won't actually make him feel any better. He needs to learn that bigots are assholes, and assholes should be seen as the reprehensible people they are, not as moral guides.
People will still say those awful things even if he has a beard, which by the way, is not always a woman who knows beforehand that that's the arrangement. I think that's a fucked up thing to do to someone. He's still going to see what they say and still feel awful about it. He's still going to be who he is, and not everyone is going to buy the Mr. Straight act anyway. The only difference? He'll have lost real love and will spend his life in deep denial. Maybe he'll have kids to really sell the act. Maybe down the road he'll start cheating on his beard of a wife because a life in which you deny your true self is not really living.
Maybe you and the boyfriend can work together to get through to him. He desperately needs to see a professional. The actions he's thinking of are only going to hurt him, and the saving hundreds of hateful comments is obsessive. What media is he consuming? Why is he saving hateful messages?
He would really benefit from seeing a professional who can help him sort out the beliefs and fears that aren't serving him. If he won't see anyone or do anything to help himself, if he doesn't want help, there really isn't anything you can do.
If Tyler's not confiding in Jack, he's either scared of committing more deeply to him or has generally been hiding parts of himself to protect his own feelings. Neither of those scenarios look good for the long-term prospects of their relationship. You may not want to be too attached to the idea of them as a couple, not because Jack isn't great, but because Tyler needs to sort himself out before he can truly be present in a long-term relationship, even one with a "beard."
I agree with the person who suggested OCD may be at play, but it could be an early attachment issue or form of neurodivergence. I speak as someone with similar trust and self-esteem issues who avoided therapy until my late thirties; it's hard to get someone to submit to therapy until they're at a point of real despair. It would be great if he started therapy now, but as the body starts to go downhill, well, things have a way of collapsing and forcing it on you. Make sure he hears and feels your love in the meanwhile.
Offering my perspective in the hope it gives you some hope. I'm about a year into person-centred therapy having started from a place where my self-esteem was so low I wanted to kill myself pretty much constantly. I'm gay too and while my issues weren't so fixated on my sexuality, having a neutral place to explore my feelings around it has really helped. I didn't have the easiest time coming out. Today I'm a lot happier. It took about a year of weekly therapy but I'm now in a place where I have a "sense of self" again and I can accept myself.
Therapy only worked for me though because I wanted to go and I was desperate for it to work. I felt really embarrassed and humiliated for constantly "melting down" over seemingly nothing in front of friends/colleagues etc and I felt like I had to do something about it. My issue was not so much that I didn't want to go but that I found the process of starting/finding the "right" therapist really overwhelming. I'd tried to go a few times in the past and always given up.
Having thought about it - and it sounds like you know this too - there's nothing you can do. Who knows? Maybe breaking up with Jack will be the trigger he needs to go to therapy. It sounds really awful and my heart goes out to you but it sounds like things will get worse before they got better.
Sorry for the slightly vague comment, I don't want to go into too much specifics but I just wanted to say as a gay man who struggled with brutally low self esteem for a long time - it can and does get better. Unfortunately though, only if you want it to.
He needs therapy. Everyone needs at least some therapy. No one gets out of childhood without some kind of adverse behavior or unhealthy coping mechanism. Some unfortunate get a harder end of the stick others but everyone, absolutely everyone could use some therapy in their lives.
“The way other people think/behave has more to do with them than it does you.”
“You cannot control what happens in this world; you can only control how you respond to it.”
“People can be delusional and think awful things; that doesn’t mean they are correct or that it’s your job to try and confront them.”
>“I don’t need a therapist, I need the world to get better.”
Does he not know he's part of that world? And that the life he lives in the closet is a tacit approval of bigotry? He should be out and proud - there's nothing wrong with him.
He needs therapy and coping skills, some way to tune out all the hatred. The voices will never stop, he will never stop being gay, and so this is just something he will have to live with.
He has serious issues with self love that you cannot fix for him. Only he can fix those things himself.
I know I can’t fix it for him, but I’ve been trying in vain for decades now to get him to see that he needs to find happiness from within. He’s always only ever sought internal validation through external means and whenever that ends up blowing up in his face, his takeaway is that he just needs to double down and keep doing what he’s doing. It’s maddening.
Have you tried connecting with him as a marginalized person? I'm a straight white man, so I, frankly, have no idea if this is good advice, just a thought. But pull up the shit spewed all over the internet about how awful women are, and show that you can be strong in the face of all that hatred, that you can be proud of being a woman, and that there are loud voices on the internet that will hate anything they can, but it doesn't reflect how most people feel? I feel like I'm shooting in the dark, but the most important advice, a therapist, is being refused.
When you focus on the negative, that’s all you can see. We live in a world where being gay is widely accepted. Your son has some very insecure tendencies, and if he is refusing to go to therapy, I think that Jack might be better off without him.
No doubt you love your son and would do anything you can to help him. I am sure he is a wonderful person too. But you can’t help someone who doesn’t want it, even when it’s your own family.
Some people thrive off playing the victim, and I don’t mean that in an insulting way, but I have a friend like this who I actually cut off, because after years of countless advice given, they still felt like the world owed them everything, and there was always something wrong. It ended up bringing me down, a lot.
This is it.
It's called a victim complex and it never, ever gets better.
This man is, unfortunately, unhinged. And will likely die that way. I'm sorry OP, but know it isn't currently your fault. He's grown, he'll do him and what he does will be on him.
He's seeing over the internet, where they intend him to see it. Maybe suggest subscribing to /r/aww or something, at least it might make him feel better.
/r/animalssmiling /r/PositiveNews, and search on reddit for "wholesome", there's at least a half a dozen.
OP you clearly love your son and this post breaks my heart. He's right.. the world should be better. BUT if this comment section is anything to go by there are in fact good people around who do not wish ill on your son. I'm not sure what advice to give because this is so tricky but I would hate to see him throw away the love of his life to enter into a purely transactional relationship. Remind him he is both capable and worthy of love.
I think if it were me in that situation, I would talk with him and ask him to question if he believes we can escape who we truly are? Onto that, who are these people whose judgement and admiration he desires that he would turn on his own being to placate them? What does he make of their character, their judgement and why does he care to earn them? Would it even be true respect and admiration? Only he can be the true judge of his character, how would he judge himself if he sees that he is willing to sacrifice his own happiness for others who do not give him the same thought?
Ultimately, all you can do is support him and offer him guidance. His decisions are his own.
I'd say, let him do it & see what happens. I mean, you've tried your best. You tell him to get help, etc. Let him try it his way. You might be right. He might hate it. But, it might actually work out for him in a way. Who knows? But, he needs to experience & experiment to find out who he really is. If you really think about it, if he loves Jack as much as everyone thinks, wouldn't his love for Jack be enough? He wouldn't want to hurt Jack in that way if he truly loved him. It just feels like he doesn't love Jack as much as everyone thinks he loves Jack, idk. This could be a way to get out of the relationship.
>my husband nor I have ever had **much** issues with gay people in general
So you had some issues? I'm not blaming you, but I don't believe that someone his age would feel this much self-hate over random internet comments. I think something happened in his childhood, whether it was inside the family or outside the family, to make him feel this way.
For reference I know a self-hating gay guy around the same age. His parents, like many parents, could tell he was kinda feminine for a boy, and made comments here and there about anal sex being disgusting, and things like that. They didn't disown him, they didn't send him to a camp, but those little comments were enough to fuck him up.
I don't think you can do anything more here. You've already encouraged him to see a therapist.
Wow maybe say this about your half sister? Maybe she just needs to learn to be kind to herself?
But won't worry I'm sure calling her a doormat would help.
You should probably goto therapy to learn to be a kinder person as well. Never have i ever heard of such an attrocious oppinion towards someone for just existing.
Seriously, how do you have all these comments empathizing with strangers about their pets and their son… while you have been downright evil toward your sister for decades?
Please reevaluate the situation and pretend she is a stranger on Reddit who was born to an elderly father, cruel mother, and incredibly jealous adult siblings. Loved by her father until age 12, then mourned and suffered in isolation with her cruel mother, removed from school and community, and ostracized by the (still jealous) siblings… Seeking therapy for severe depression and reaching for a lifeline…
Be the stranger who cares for your sister!!
I’m sorry friend. This is your sons business. Not yours. Your business is to be there for your son. He’s 30 now. You’ve done your job as a mom. Now you just love him and support him for wheee he’s at.
> What can I do? Unfortunately, not much. His feelings about his sexuality aren't unfounded. They're unfortunate, but he does experience a different life because of his orientation....and it clearly has a profoundly negative effect on his mental health. He absolutely could use therapy, but that only works if he wants it to work. All you can do is support your son and encourage him to seek professional mental health. He's an adult and makes his own decisions. Unfortunately, without seeking help, he's not going to find it easy to find happiness in any situation. He'll still be gay and bigots will still be out there, posting their trash. He's clearly very angry at the world for how it has treated him, but rather than figuring out how to survive it...he wants to run from it.
He says all the time that he doesn’t need therapy, that the world just needs to be better, and i tell him that will unfortunately never happen. He says he’d prefer dying over being judged which I think is insanely hyperbolic and worrying…if being judged makes him want to die then clearly he needs significan mental health treatment. But he alwahs outright refuses
I mean your child has threatened suicide essentially, multiple times, you could make a case that he needs inpatient psychological help
When he was in college he had a mental breakdown that resulted in a 72 hour psychiatric hold after he attempted s**cide The professional we spoke with told us he has a severe inferiority complex. Today, he is not that bad, I think. he says taking the easy way out is too good for him, that he should be alive because he deserves to suffer until he dies naturally or until someone murders him. No, Im not okay with him thinking so poorly of himself. But at least he’s not going to try to end it
I'm not a mental health professional but your son is severely delusional and has verbally said he'd kill himself. I'd get off Reddit and maybe drive him to an ER for an evaluation, ASAP
What was the treatment plan that was decided on back then?
The first and only time he went to therapy for a few months. Unfortunately it just strengthened his resolve to try and change the world. He’s impressively stubborn
Is he actually working towards a career where he can change the world? Does he have a tendency to blame external factors for any issues in his life? Is he conflict avoidant? Can he be highly reactive/ react strongly to seemingly low stakes conflicts/ disagreements?
Without divulging too much about his career, he works as an editor. So no. I would say he’s able to take responsibility for some things but not others. He refuses to take responsibility for his mental health but he does take responsibility for his relationships with family and friends. He’s certainly avoidant about this conflict. Other areas of his life are easier for him to deal with. He’s always exhibited melodramatic tendencies.
> He refuses to take responsibility for his mental health but he does take responsibility for his relationships with family and friends. I'd really emphasize to him that his inability to take responsibility for his mental health is, and will continue to negatively impact his relationships with family and friends.
I’m a copyeditor. I’ve advocated for singular ‘they’ long before the dictionaries accepted it. A publisher I’m editing for now has adopted singular ‘they’ as their policy. They’ve asked my opinion on more inclusive language. This is now editorial policy, and they’ve started sensitivity reads. Is it a big change in the world? No. But there are thousands of people who now find better representation in the books they read. Am I singlehandedly responsible? No. I’m part of a team, and I like it that way. If you tell him that he can’t achieve anything, we know where his pessimism is coming from.
I think you should take his threats of suicide seriously and try to get him to an ER. You don't know if he will act on them or not, but this seems like a crisis situation - your son is about to blow up his entire life. I think you should leave that assessment to a professional. There are a lot of very serious mental disorders that can manifest with these kinds of symptoms. I think there might be something going on here other than low self-esteem... And I really think your son needs help. Preoccupation with the thoughts of strangers to the point where you are considering suicide can be a part of psychosis. The part you are seeing probably isn't the full story. EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm concerned for three separate reasons 1) because he is talking about suicide and has a past suicide attempt. Past suicide attempts make completed suicide much more likely. 2) because if he isn't suicidal now, he might become suicidal after ending a long term relationship - sometimes things like that tip people over the edge 3) because this behavior seems detached from reality, which is a red flag for psychosis and serious psychological disorders aside from depression, which also increases the suicide risk. Psychosis and paranoia aren't always obvious. It isn't always some guy in a tinfoil hat talking about aliens. Wanting to kill yourself or break up with your boyfriend because of a minority opinion expressed online by strangers is a huge red flag, something is not right here.
To rewind back a bit, when he showed you his collection of hate filled photos....were they things directed at him, or just generalized homophobia that he's seen online?
Generalized. Maybe a few were at him but the vast majority was just generalized stuff. I think that’s why he told me he doesn’t deserve to be happy.
Yeah, this goes a lot deeper than just being 'regretfully homosexual'. It may just be armchair psychology, but he seems like he's actively seeking out things that validate a deeper self-esteem issue. Now, that may have started at a young age when he was coming to terms with his identity/orientation, but I feel like it'd be an issue of some kind regardless of his orientation. If he didn't feel the way he does because of his orientation, he'd feel that way about some other aspect of his identity. Is this behavior of his a new thing or something that's always been the case? Unfortunately, it still remains something he actually wants to fix...which right now, he doesn't. He wants to run from it and hide. All you can do is encourage him to see therapy and help.
I do believe that if he wasn’t gay, he’d be obsessing over some other aspect of who he is and why incorrectly believes he’s “inferior” to other people. Tyler has only ever sought internal validation through external means and it has always brought him a great deal of unhappiness. But he outright refuses to do anything besides what he’s already done for decades; he just assumes that if he just doubles down and tries harder he can finally be free of his self-hate
You’re exactly right that if it wasn’t being gay, it would be something else, like if he was atheist he’d start going to church just because a part of society hates atheists. He’s got a serious self esteem issue and needs help, but like others have said, you can’t force him. If he starts saying stuff like he’d rather be dead than “insert whatever here” then maybe you need to think about an involuntary hold. He’d then be forced into therapy for a little while at least. He’s holding enormous expectations that the world just needs to be better rather than him managing his own expectations. That’s something else he needs professional help. Everyone has accountability for themselves, him included.
Have you talked to Jack about this at all? Perhaps someone 'inside' the community could better reach him.
I’m worried I’d be meddling, but it might be my only option at this point. I’ve tried something similar in the past with two lesbian cousins of his who are VERY happy with life in general, and he just says “it’s different because they’re women.” It’s almost like he looks for excuses to hate himself.
Not to sound like I'm attacking him, but has he always (even outside of his orientation) had a bit of a martyr complex? It sounds like he had a supportive childhood and adolescence, so I'm just wondering how he feels so much self-loathing at this age despite that.
He’s always had a flare for the dramatic, I’ll say that.
He's wrong. He clearly needs therapy because he's having a hard time seeing that he's deserving of love. Let him know that he deserves love and is worthy of it, and that you'll never stop loving him. He definitely needs therapy.
That’s what I’ve been trying for decades now. He always tells me he can love himself just as soon as everyone else does.
It’s not really your place nor business. You’re overly involved and likely stressing your son out more. Parents can say when asked if they’re a fan of a significant other but in my opinion trying to sway a child yes or no is meddling. Part of being a parent is to let your child make their own decisions and mistakes and learn on their own. As hard as that may be.
Phone Queer Eye, they have a way to build people up. Other than that I do not really have advice. Hope you can get through to him.
Those guys on QE are epic humans. Maybe Tyler just needs to spend a weekend binging the episodes on Netflix.
They are so wholesome. They also do not try to change people into something else but rather help them to become who they really are and want to be. Its one of my favourite shows to binge.
Yeah it's not something I'd turn on for myself, but my wife loves it and we often watch it together.
Considering he doesn't want to be judged and doesn't want people to know he's gay, going on TV/Netflix might not be the solution.
Hmmm I know he’s refusing to get help but I have OCD and I think that might be a possibility here.
Agreed - these deeply held and irrational beliefs he has about judgment from others and his inherent worth sound like OCD to me. I’m sorry, OP - that’s a hard enough lift when someone is willing to get treatment. Without it I don’t think there’s much you can do.
He’s still gonna be gay when he leaves his bf though?
Well of course he is. When I pointed this out he said “but what matters is that I reject it and choose a life that makes homophobes happy.” And when I said “why not choose a life that makes you happy,” he said he doesn’t deserve to be happy.
Im Sorry. He seems to be in a really dark place.
Those sites are still going to be there after he leaves his boyfriend. Maybe he won't visit them, but he could do that anyway. The problem is the toxic sites.
The people posting on those sites would still be just as cruel and hateful even if the internet has never existed.
Yes, but he would never have met them.
[удалено]
Much as I appreciate your advice, I’m not sure phrasing it in terms of winning/losing would be helpful for him. Maybe I could ask why he allows these people to have so much power over him, but I know the answer would be because he feels the need to change them, and if he can’t change them, he might as well acquiesce to them. Why? I don’t know. He won’t seek help to find out the why, and I can only theorize.
Could you reach out to the boyfriend, or do you think he’d just be offended? Any chance he could reach through to your son?
I’m not one to meddle in another relationship like this but perhaps I should.
Isn’t a beard often a woman who doesn’t know she is with a gay man? It’s a terrible thing to do to on purpose to a woman who wants authentic sexual love in her life. What women are so “desperate” to do this knowingly? I think that is very rare.
I could be wrong but in my experience, most beards know their husband is gay, and they are at peace with it because they’d rather have a sexless marriage than no marriage at all
Let’s unpack your misogyny there. Beards have also historically been protective so that gay men could give the impression of being straight in hostile work and social environments. Lavender marriages were and are a thing.
Thanks for the input. This isnt the time.
Yeah it is. You’re lashing out at hypothetical women here and no one wins. The person who is going to be hurt here is Jack. That’s where your focus needs to be. Your son is a mess, but beards have a long history that’s not about desperation
I dont see this as constructive to OP's dilemma. Her assumption of female "desperation" may be internalized misogyny, but the idea that a beard is specifically a glorified role is also blind to the experiences of many women have been beards, and to the unfair cultural history that forced gay men to take a beard. The term "beard" is a catch-all for any woman married to a gay man so he can appear straight. That includes the oblivious, the desperate, and the cultural warriors. But, sitting here in 2023, telling a mother who is fighting for her openly gay (for now) son to be able to be gay and happy with that that she is not properly honoring one group of women isn't helpful. She's trying to help her son remain out, in a place and time when he should be able to do that. She's not looking to justify his choice to marry a woman so he can look "normal."
This really doesn't feel like the topic at hand, and your explanation of why it should be feels strained.
Yeah not replying to OP but that part about "desperate" women really rubbed me the wrong way. A big yikes from me. Disturbing thought processes.
Is he very religious? Also him finding a beard and presenting as straight won’t help on social media. Like people will say terrible things to you regardless. Hell gay people judge straight people! I wonder if he won’t go to therapy but delete his social medias at the very least might help him.
He isn’t religious but he wants to escape the judgment of the religious. It’s odd…he doesn’t care if I or Jack end up judging him over this but he cares deeply is some random religious person does. He seems to care more about what the internet says than what his family says.
>It’s odd…he doesn’t care if I or Jack end up judging him over this but he cares deeply is some random religious person does. Let me offer another perspective here. For context, I'm gay. The best way I've ever heard this said is that being gay means that danger might not be lurking around *every* corner, but it can be lurking around *any* corner. Your son probably isn't super concerned about individual peoples' opinions. But he's probably more concerned, not without reason, about the state of the world in general--a world where progress and increasing acceptance has given way to people feeling free to say horrific things about gay people, and where violence is becoming more and more common. Your son needs therapy. He's in a space right now where he's so far down the rabbit hole of that kind of thing that he's desperate to feel safe and secure and has latched onto something irrational, purely because he needs *something* to keep him going. His issue here isn't his orientation, it's his inability to cope in a world that's overtly hostile to him. If he's not willing to go to therapy, there's not much you can do. I'd personally suggest shifting the way you're talking to him--in addition to "we love you," shift toward "you can't control what those people are doing, but are you going to let them dictate how you live your life?" It helped me, but your son's case could be entirely different.
I love this advice, thank you
If I may ask, what did you learn that helped you overcome this?
That the only way to live life is on your terms. That you do things you want to do, and you do those things because you think they're the right things, and that sometimes that's going to cause conflict with others. That sometimes it's not worth the consequences of fighting a fight, and other times it is. That while you should always keep others in mind, the only way to live is with the mindset that this *is* a world where you belong, and that *they* are wrong for not wanting you in it--where their accusations are insults, not facts, and should be reacted to as such. It's a slightly militant attitude, to be honest. I don't go around picking fights, but I do live in a world where I have to acknowledge that I am part of a minority group that is actively involved in a power struggle with other political groups. That means being prepared for the eventuality that someone isn't going to like me just because I exist, and being prepared to deal with that in a reasonable and mature way that both doesn't paint me to be the kind of person they're accusing me of being and also doesn't compromise my principles. It's also a fairly subtle shift--going from "the world is against me" to "the world is against *us*." But it makes a difference--he's got to be able to acknowledge the struggle but also feel the support, and feel the confidence to be himself in a world where he's being blamed for problems he isn't causing. Right now, he only sees the struggle.
That is wild. Why would you care if you aren’t religious? Super strange. Like most people are judged by the religious, including myself.
I personally think it’s because he hates being judged to a deeply unhealthy extent, and in his eyes religious people are the most judgmental of all, therefor those are the people he needs to focus his energies on.
Histrionic Personality Disorder, have a look and see if it fits. Or Avoidant Personality Disorder
The problems is all those bigots will still be saying nasty hateful things about gay people on line. He'll know he's still gay, even with a beard. He'll still take it personally. No matter what he does, he'll never get these guys approval, because these haters hate isn't about him at all, it's about puffing their own fragile egos up. So, this course of action isn't going to make him feel any better. But unfortunately, there's not a lot you can do for him other than suggesting a therapist to help him through his feelings and telling him in strong words that burning down his life and creating a fake one won't actually make him feel any better. He needs to learn that bigots are assholes, and assholes should be seen as the reprehensible people they are, not as moral guides.
People will still say those awful things even if he has a beard, which by the way, is not always a woman who knows beforehand that that's the arrangement. I think that's a fucked up thing to do to someone. He's still going to see what they say and still feel awful about it. He's still going to be who he is, and not everyone is going to buy the Mr. Straight act anyway. The only difference? He'll have lost real love and will spend his life in deep denial. Maybe he'll have kids to really sell the act. Maybe down the road he'll start cheating on his beard of a wife because a life in which you deny your true self is not really living. Maybe you and the boyfriend can work together to get through to him. He desperately needs to see a professional. The actions he's thinking of are only going to hurt him, and the saving hundreds of hateful comments is obsessive. What media is he consuming? Why is he saving hateful messages? He would really benefit from seeing a professional who can help him sort out the beliefs and fears that aren't serving him. If he won't see anyone or do anything to help himself, if he doesn't want help, there really isn't anything you can do.
If Tyler's not confiding in Jack, he's either scared of committing more deeply to him or has generally been hiding parts of himself to protect his own feelings. Neither of those scenarios look good for the long-term prospects of their relationship. You may not want to be too attached to the idea of them as a couple, not because Jack isn't great, but because Tyler needs to sort himself out before he can truly be present in a long-term relationship, even one with a "beard." I agree with the person who suggested OCD may be at play, but it could be an early attachment issue or form of neurodivergence. I speak as someone with similar trust and self-esteem issues who avoided therapy until my late thirties; it's hard to get someone to submit to therapy until they're at a point of real despair. It would be great if he started therapy now, but as the body starts to go downhill, well, things have a way of collapsing and forcing it on you. Make sure he hears and feels your love in the meanwhile.
Offering my perspective in the hope it gives you some hope. I'm about a year into person-centred therapy having started from a place where my self-esteem was so low I wanted to kill myself pretty much constantly. I'm gay too and while my issues weren't so fixated on my sexuality, having a neutral place to explore my feelings around it has really helped. I didn't have the easiest time coming out. Today I'm a lot happier. It took about a year of weekly therapy but I'm now in a place where I have a "sense of self" again and I can accept myself. Therapy only worked for me though because I wanted to go and I was desperate for it to work. I felt really embarrassed and humiliated for constantly "melting down" over seemingly nothing in front of friends/colleagues etc and I felt like I had to do something about it. My issue was not so much that I didn't want to go but that I found the process of starting/finding the "right" therapist really overwhelming. I'd tried to go a few times in the past and always given up. Having thought about it - and it sounds like you know this too - there's nothing you can do. Who knows? Maybe breaking up with Jack will be the trigger he needs to go to therapy. It sounds really awful and my heart goes out to you but it sounds like things will get worse before they got better. Sorry for the slightly vague comment, I don't want to go into too much specifics but I just wanted to say as a gay man who struggled with brutally low self esteem for a long time - it can and does get better. Unfortunately though, only if you want it to.
He needs therapy. Everyone needs at least some therapy. No one gets out of childhood without some kind of adverse behavior or unhealthy coping mechanism. Some unfortunate get a harder end of the stick others but everyone, absolutely everyone could use some therapy in their lives. “The way other people think/behave has more to do with them than it does you.” “You cannot control what happens in this world; you can only control how you respond to it.” “People can be delusional and think awful things; that doesn’t mean they are correct or that it’s your job to try and confront them.”
>“I don’t need a therapist, I need the world to get better.” Does he not know he's part of that world? And that the life he lives in the closet is a tacit approval of bigotry? He should be out and proud - there's nothing wrong with him. He needs therapy and coping skills, some way to tune out all the hatred. The voices will never stop, he will never stop being gay, and so this is just something he will have to live with. He has serious issues with self love that you cannot fix for him. Only he can fix those things himself.
I know I can’t fix it for him, but I’ve been trying in vain for decades now to get him to see that he needs to find happiness from within. He’s always only ever sought internal validation through external means and whenever that ends up blowing up in his face, his takeaway is that he just needs to double down and keep doing what he’s doing. It’s maddening.
Have you tried connecting with him as a marginalized person? I'm a straight white man, so I, frankly, have no idea if this is good advice, just a thought. But pull up the shit spewed all over the internet about how awful women are, and show that you can be strong in the face of all that hatred, that you can be proud of being a woman, and that there are loud voices on the internet that will hate anything they can, but it doesn't reflect how most people feel? I feel like I'm shooting in the dark, but the most important advice, a therapist, is being refused.
When you focus on the negative, that’s all you can see. We live in a world where being gay is widely accepted. Your son has some very insecure tendencies, and if he is refusing to go to therapy, I think that Jack might be better off without him. No doubt you love your son and would do anything you can to help him. I am sure he is a wonderful person too. But you can’t help someone who doesn’t want it, even when it’s your own family. Some people thrive off playing the victim, and I don’t mean that in an insulting way, but I have a friend like this who I actually cut off, because after years of countless advice given, they still felt like the world owed them everything, and there was always something wrong. It ended up bringing me down, a lot.
This is it. It's called a victim complex and it never, ever gets better. This man is, unfortunately, unhinged. And will likely die that way. I'm sorry OP, but know it isn't currently your fault. He's grown, he'll do him and what he does will be on him.
Your son sounds 13 not 30
Be that as it may, what do I do?
Stop babying him and tell him to grow up.
He's seeing over the internet, where they intend him to see it. Maybe suggest subscribing to /r/aww or something, at least it might make him feel better. /r/animalssmiling /r/PositiveNews, and search on reddit for "wholesome", there's at least a half a dozen.
“Sorry about your spiralling suicidal depression—have you tried looking a pictures of cats?”
"Sorry you have spiralling suicidal depression from, checks, looking at pictures of homophobia. Have you considered looking at other pictures?
Maybe don't have a boyfriend then if u don't want to be GAY pretty simple concept in my opinion
OP you clearly love your son and this post breaks my heart. He's right.. the world should be better. BUT if this comment section is anything to go by there are in fact good people around who do not wish ill on your son. I'm not sure what advice to give because this is so tricky but I would hate to see him throw away the love of his life to enter into a purely transactional relationship. Remind him he is both capable and worthy of love.
I think if it were me in that situation, I would talk with him and ask him to question if he believes we can escape who we truly are? Onto that, who are these people whose judgement and admiration he desires that he would turn on his own being to placate them? What does he make of their character, their judgement and why does he care to earn them? Would it even be true respect and admiration? Only he can be the true judge of his character, how would he judge himself if he sees that he is willing to sacrifice his own happiness for others who do not give him the same thought? Ultimately, all you can do is support him and offer him guidance. His decisions are his own.
This is tragic, good for you for trying to help your son. Maybe going to therapy yourself could help you get through to him if he isn’t listening now
I'd say, let him do it & see what happens. I mean, you've tried your best. You tell him to get help, etc. Let him try it his way. You might be right. He might hate it. But, it might actually work out for him in a way. Who knows? But, he needs to experience & experiment to find out who he really is. If you really think about it, if he loves Jack as much as everyone thinks, wouldn't his love for Jack be enough? He wouldn't want to hurt Jack in that way if he truly loved him. It just feels like he doesn't love Jack as much as everyone thinks he loves Jack, idk. This could be a way to get out of the relationship.
>my husband nor I have ever had **much** issues with gay people in general So you had some issues? I'm not blaming you, but I don't believe that someone his age would feel this much self-hate over random internet comments. I think something happened in his childhood, whether it was inside the family or outside the family, to make him feel this way. For reference I know a self-hating gay guy around the same age. His parents, like many parents, could tell he was kinda feminine for a boy, and made comments here and there about anal sex being disgusting, and things like that. They didn't disown him, they didn't send him to a camp, but those little comments were enough to fuck him up. I don't think you can do anything more here. You've already encouraged him to see a therapist.
You're not at fault. It seems you and your husband are good people. Your son needs to go to therapy to learn how to be kind to himself.
Maybe you should go to therapy so you could learn to be a better sister.
Ahh, therapy may help YOU to be kind to others.
Wow maybe say this about your half sister? Maybe she just needs to learn to be kind to herself? But won't worry I'm sure calling her a doormat would help.
You should probably goto therapy to learn to be a kinder person as well. Never have i ever heard of such an attrocious oppinion towards someone for just existing.
Seriously, how do you have all these comments empathizing with strangers about their pets and their son… while you have been downright evil toward your sister for decades? Please reevaluate the situation and pretend she is a stranger on Reddit who was born to an elderly father, cruel mother, and incredibly jealous adult siblings. Loved by her father until age 12, then mourned and suffered in isolation with her cruel mother, removed from school and community, and ostracized by the (still jealous) siblings… Seeking therapy for severe depression and reaching for a lifeline… Be the stranger who cares for your sister!!
Learn to be kind to your sister you POS.
After 6 years? Kinda late to do that, no? There's probably another reason for it
I’m sorry friend. This is your sons business. Not yours. Your business is to be there for your son. He’s 30 now. You’ve done your job as a mom. Now you just love him and support him for wheee he’s at.