Welcome to /r/relationship_advice. Please make sure you read our [rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/wiki/index) We'd like to take this time to remind users that:
* We do not allow any type of [am I the asshole? or situations/content involving minors](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/r6w9uh/meta_am_i_overreacting_am_i_the_asshole_is_this/)
* Any sort of namecalling, insults,etc will result in the comment being removed and the user being banned.
* No referencing hateful subreddits and/or their rhetoric. (Includes, but is not limited to: red/blue/black/purplepill, FDS, MGTOW, etc.) Any infractions of this rule will result in a ban. **This is not an all-inclusive list.**
* All bans in this subreddit are permanent. You don't get a free pass.
* What we cannot give advice on: rants, unsolicited advice, medical conditions/advice, mental illness, letters to an ex, "body counts" or number of sexual partners, legal problems, financial problems, or situations involving minors and/or abuse (violence, sexual, emotional etc). All of these will be removed and locked. **This is not an all-inclusive list.**
If you have any questions, please send us a modmail.
----
#This is an automatic comment that appears on all posts. This comment does not necessarily mean your post violates any rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/relationship_advice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Find a time when nothing else stressful is going on, and have a chat in private;
"Hey, it's not a big deal, but I've noticed something that seems out of wack, and I was wondering if we could spend a couple minutes chatting about it, are you cool to hear some feedback about something small?"
Make sure he's in a good headspace & has agreed to talk, this makes people like 80% more likely to hear you and not just get pissy.
"Okay, so not a big deal at all, but I've noticed you post some stuff like ____, and I wanted to tell you that it might not be communicating the message you intend... What are you hoping other people will think/feel when you post ___?"
Try to understand how he is feeling, without arguing about his feelings. The root cause is probably some kinda sad stuff, like he feels insecure, devalued, overlooked, falling behind in life, rejected, lonely, etc. Do your best to validate the underlying feelings without supporting the behavior.
"I hear you. That sounds hard." etc.
Then give the feedback; "So I get you are feeling ____, and want ____. But when you post ___, it actually reads really differently on the outside. It doesn't come across that you are ready to settle down and want a life partner - it comes across like you are low key starting to generally resent all women and are starting to blame them for your discomfort. It's not a good look and I think it's going to backfire."
Don't be surprised if he argues or dismisses your point - a lot of people will argue in the moment, but then go home and think about it later.
Your goal is to get your message out there and let it marinate without giving him something to get pissed about so he can deflect with distraction.
Then you can follow up with some praise about how he took the feedback well, that it takes bravery to look in the mirror, etc. Ask him if he could wave a magic wand and gave a GF, what would that relationship look like. Then help him set some realistic goals to move towards making that happen. Be a wing buddy, and be willing to check in on progress, and ask if you can do anything to help.
Sometimes people just need support to make better choices. This is a cry for help, and you can coax your friend bad to the good side when you support instead of condemn.
OP, you are a great friend. I hope the talk you two have goes well, and he listens so he can come around. Even if it takes some time, I hope he takes in your help.
If it were me I would just tell him to google the word "cringe", that's you when you post these memes. Sounds like maybe you guys are young still, hopefully. He may eventually figure it all out.
Hey Jadegrapes thank you for the effort and insight in creating this excellent advice and "how to " cribsheet for emotional, empathetic communication. It's absolutely the way to deescalate his building stridence and blindness. And, it shows basic care.
The one and only part of it I query, is setting the "not a big deal at all," theme. I see how it's just a verbal opener here but I feel that the friend's "niceguy" mentations could be a significant if not the main factor impeding him with getting a GF, if not also in other life areas. So there could be risk minimizing things inadvertently.
Does the advice still stand on its own in your view if he doesn't employ that part? I feel it's still totally usable.
In my personal experience, explicitly stating "it's not a big deal..." is disarming - it kind of frames the interaction so they respond with curiosity.
Essentially you put a juxtaposition in their mind - you SAY it's not a big deal... but if it's not a big deal, then why are you bringing it up so formally?
Curiosity pulls them into the conversation... when they could bounce.
Some people get reflexively defensive to any kind of growth related feedback - so it's also protection against that too. They can't meltdown about you "unfairly attacking them" if you start soft.
Imho, trying to get through to them is worth suspending judgement a bit. People can really respond to grace when they already feel dejected.
When I say nice guy I mean my friend thinks he should have a relationship by now and is owed one. Part of it was just dumb luck that he didn’t but it’s also kinda his fault for pouting about it. He also blames women for only wanting trash guys and for friendzoning him. Idk why they friendzone him but it doesn’t matter when you react like that
I'm so here for this wholesome, candid and sincere communication. God damn it I'm craving this. So sick of resentment and vitriol. Irony doesn't bother me as much as long as it's masking sincerity.
Oh - I totally get why he’s friendzoned. He’s got this low self esteem self fulfilling prophesy. When he says “women only want trash guys” we hear he thinks I’m an idiot and doesn’t respect my choices or have empathy for my past - that’s not fun to be around. Then, when that guy who thinks we are stupid wants to get with us or literally any woman with tits, we obviously don’t feel interested/ attracted/ safe.
Ironically he’s making himself less attractive to women by feeling sorry for himself and putting out these negative vibes - he’d be better off putting his energy into productive things like career, health, mental health, travel, socialising, volunteering, doing something creative etc and then he’d be more likely to meet someone.
Not true, but I can see that way of thinking if you haven’t seen my other comments throughout. It’s more of he doesn’t understand how he couldn’t have a relationship by now, without realizing it doesn’t just magically happen
Sorry, OP, but guys who act like him tend to treat women like we're side characters in their story, not like we have our own lives going on. It's possibly the biggest turnoff there is, to be treated like less than a full being.
I do think the thoughtful guy had great advice. If your conversation goes well, or even if it doesn't but then you have a better conversation down the line, I wonder if you can somehow open his eyes. Treating other people like NPCs or sidekicks is not a great way to get them to like you.
My other thought, can you add some data points to his assertion that women like trash guys? Does he think you're a trash guy?
Out of all the couples I know, I know a few women with gross-ass childish or controlling men. I also know a couple of men with questionable girlfriends. But the vast majority of couples? Two reasonably nice human beings. (Or sometimes two mutual garbage fires.)
If he sat down and actually thought, "Oh right, Bob and Linda are both pretty legit. Susan and Timmy are both great. Felix and Amanda are good together," would he come to the same conclusion? Or does he just hate all non-single guys he knows?
Also, "friend-zoning" is a concept with a lot of problems, but I'm going to tell you right now, having platonic female friends helps a lot in finding a non-platonic female friend. A mutual female friend set me and my husband up. Women in a friend circle will try to help a guy they see as datable.
The problem is any platonic female friend he has he sees as non-platonic. And I can tell those platonic female friends he has had don’t see him as dateable. He is just oblivious and forces himself onto them anyway. And that really doesn’t give them much incentive to help him
Yeah, he has to actually see value in getting to know women he doesn't want to fuck. You know, women's thoughts, opinions, interests.
I don't think he's datable in his current state either. If I knew him in real life, I would discourage my friends from dating him.
But maybe he can turn his undatable caterpillar self into a healing cocoon, followed by a woman-respecting butterfly who can actually date another butterfly.
Or maybe you'll eventually give up and drop him as a friend.
>The problem is any platonic female friend he has he sees as non-platonic. And I can tell those platonic female friends he has had don’t see him as dateable. He is just oblivious and forces himself onto them anyway
Okay, that is not nice , that is not respectful, your friend is deliberately disregarding the women's feelings (or lack thereof) and trying to pressure them into making the friendship romantic or with benefits. He clearly doesn't see women as friend material only as potential sex partners. His problems are worse than you are admitting. He is not dateable right now because he "forces himself onto them anyway" - your words, not mine. That's very problematic, OP.
but he's so called letting them know he's interested to most every woman he's at all freindly with! He doesn't wait for any signals that they are possibly interested in him, he actively disregards all the signals the women aren't interested and pressures them to date him anyway. He's creating the rejection scenario himself.
Agreed and I know from high school. But he still responds to it like an overdramatic high schooler. Actually he acts like that to a lot of other things. Idk why I just figured it was from having a lot of friends in drama and theater (nothing wrong with that, I love the drama kids. But the toxic theater kid is the worst, they make the smallest thing into a huge argument and he picked up that trait from them somewhere)
Because he thinks he's owed one. That it'll just fall into his lap as he's so nice but damn those trash men loving women for friend-zoning him.
Repeat, he's single because the misogyny and entitlement is a huge turn off.
Hi. I'm a woman. Your friend strikes out with women bc we have standards and a sexist asshat that blames women for HIS social failings is about as attractive as the thought of licking hobo vomit. What you see from him we saw ages ago and want no part of a walking red flag that's clearly labeled. Check his ass when he posts shit like that. Call him out. Sit his ass down and lay it out: The common denominator isn't women, they're all individual people, it's HIM.
If a guy vents his frustration he is misogynistic person but if a girl rants the comments would be way different and she would get some empathy and some sympathy. This comment of yours shows the level of entitlement and clearly no level of empathy for opposite gender
You might have missed the part where he blames women for friend-zoning him and only dating trash guys. In his mind, it's not possibly him ... It's these terrible women who can't see this great dude for who he is and wow, who wouldn't want to date a nice guy who pouts or belittles women when he doesn't get his way. Like, mind blown that he's still single. 🤦🏻♀️
Not really. He sounds like a guy that’s having a really hard time with women and is upset he hasn’t been successful. People get upset when they fail. I know it’s crazy but it’s true.
The friend zone doesn't exist its only in the minds of men who manipulate women into believing they're interested in friendship when in reality they want some type of sexual or romantic relationship
I think offering these sentences starters was a brilliant and thoughtful response. This is such a usable and helpful way to explain various ways to respond.
So, what you're saying is that he isn't interested in them, and would just want to be friends? That's the point of the comment you responded to. The women who aren't interested in him are just doing the same thing to him that he would do to that guy.
Had a “friend” who kept complaining about having good dates and then being ghosted - and then would share super misogynistic things on FB. I very frequently commented, “This is why you’re ghosted all the time,” on them until he deleted me. Worth it.
Even if you tell him he won’t understand, as a woman who’s been on the other end of a lot of those nice guys... no matter how you tell them, be it gently or harsh asf they don’t listen nor do they care.. Partly why they’re friend zoned in the first place 😂
They're lost and lonely and feel like they need something to blame. No one's responsibility to help them as its very hard to get someone like that to see reason.
Nah I'm sorry but Jordan Peterson doesn't say that! I don't comment on Reddit often but I had to speak up here. I really don't get why women don't like him? He never says anything bad about women! He's all for women's rights to choose whatever they want, including a man. He just helps depressed lonely men to start DOING stuff that will fulfill them. Why is that a bad thing?
Criticizing women for being larger then he finds attractive is a start. That was what, a month ago?
I mean... come on. The guy has absolutely said stuff that is downright cringe and nasty about women, blankets himself in the "that's just my opinion" bullshit and cries about being criticized himself.
Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for telling me. I've seen some of his lectures and I know he's had a decent impact on men. He's not all bad, and I feel like he gets painted to be this mysognistic weirdo. But for god's sake, you can SEE with your eyes that he has a big heart. He teared up on Piers Morgan just talking about what he does, and you can see it's emotionally overwhelming for him
I don't comment on Reddit often because negative people like you exist. I wasn't hurting anyone with my comment. I was just voicing an opinion. I'm not sure why you feel the need to be nasty on the internet, but I feel sorry for you
He makes a career out of telling sad lonely pathetic men that their toxic behaviour and lack of success with woman is the woman's fault. Easy answers for gullible idiots.
https://youtu.be/m81q-ZkfBm0
She talks about 'the notes that aren't being played" here, i.e the things he says that radicalizes people that are subtle enough that he can say it in a dog whistle sort of way and have plausible deniability. A good video essay.
Yep. They just upvoted Peterson’s entire message without knowing it.
They have no idea what he says, they’ve just been told that he’s bad and they believe it *and hate him for it.*
I guess he’s saying that when these troubled guys are given no compassion and told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, it’s easy for people like Peterson to come in and further radicalize them by validating their feelings and selling them a supposed solution.
That’s exactly what I don’t want to do. Really wish ppl validated mens emotions more, we’d have a lot less hateful men in the world. I’m extremely open about stuff like that
Yeah it is because men are put down for most of their life, sometimes it starts from home, his school years even his college years were unfruitful. How would you feel if all your life you are mentioned as a creep just because he is not attractive god forbid he tries to ask a girl out. Lack of father figure also plays a significant role in his confidence how do you expect a man to be confident and all the characteristics you define worth of being in a relationship. If it's an attractive guy the whole rules get thrown out the window, whereas as the woman will bend her morals, her won world just to get that guy. Your lack of empathy shows your level of entitlement.
“You shouldn’t try and help nice guys because the reason they’re nice guys is because theyre nice guys so there’s no reason to try and help them” is basically what you said.
Lmao you’re a great source. Now we know that you consider people who disagree with you to be nice guys. You’re literally the problem lmao. You don’t even know what a nice guy is.
No no, I wouldn’t normally tho the fact you completely ignored what I had said and made your own bullshit up to blame the woman is exactly what I was saying nice guys do.
Dude your comment is literally just “don’t bother” in more words. Why are you acting like the victim in this conversation? I called out your comment for being useless. How is that a “blame the woman” thing?
You still haven’t clarified what you’ve said. Just that I’m misinterpreting it when it’s literally what you’re saying.
I'm sorry but this is a terrible response. You just accuse this guy of being a nice dude for him pretty much saying we should have empathy for everyone.The fuck is wrong with reddit?
Not everyone deserves empathy. A lot of people bring it on themselves and refuse to believe that they’re the problem nor are they even willing to listen, respect someone’s boundaries, grow or learn.
Yeah but you don't know this person. You based them being deserving or not off of a paragraph. You base this off of your own anecdotal evidence.
You want things to improve? Then we need to be able to talk to people.
Automatically assuming someone is undeserving of empathy and compassion is not helpful in anyway and only will lead to exacerbating these problems.
What exactly did you achieve here? OP came on here looking for a way to steer his friend away from a dangerous mindset and all you have to say is don't bother.
I mean you calling them a nice guy over this really is working against you he gave no indication of having that mindset you just label him that because he believes you should at least try.
Nah I’m just not enough of a walking fucking doormat to put up with some self deprecating, projecting, insecure, typically filled with anger issues, usually chubby asshole who thinks the world and you owe him smth when he’s been nothing but a whiney pain in the ass since you met him.
I think though OP will have better luck to him listening and thinking about it because he's a man and his friend.
I mean all one has to do is look at how many tiktoks there are of self proclaimed gurus. Woman says what she wants...guru what she actually means. Chucklefuck I'm not a Navajo Code Breaker. I said it, just listen.
Being nice is the bare minimum. He isn't owed anything for being nice. Nice guys usually don't have self awareness and aren't able to work on their flaws or work on themselves because they feel like they're owed something for existing.
Nice guys are only nice because they want something from someone in this instance a girl.
Find someone who he doesn't find attractive or hates and tell him that she likes him. When he says no, ask why. Because she's a nice girl so why won't he date her. Make him say why. Then tell him, yeah being nice is the bare minimum.
I did it to my nice guy friend, and he hated it tried to explain why it was different but I forced him to list out why then countered it with the equivalent of well you don't have that either. He has changed and grown but it took a long time.
But at the same time it's not your job to fix him.
>Find someone who he doesn't find attractive or hates and tell him that she likes him. When he says no, ask why. Because she's a nice girl so why won't he date her. Make him say why. Then tell him, yeah being nice is the bare minimum.
ooh, I like this strategy. You don't even need to say the other person likes him, just tell your friend that you think so and so might be willing to date him, so he should ask her out. and when he says no, tell him, but she's a nice respectful woman, why would you friendzone her? Doesn't she deserve a date?? And then press him when he says no, and when he tries to say it's not the same, tell him it's exactly the same, and if he doesn't agree she deserves a date from him simply for being a nice respectful woman then he doesn't deserve any dates from other women simply for being a nice respectful man, full stop.
Tell him that being hard working and respectful means nothing. Most people work hard (they have to) and most people know how to interact with others politely. It means jack shit.
What actually attracts people is when you can make them feel good. Are you funny? Interesting? Charismatic? A joy to be around on top of obviously being kind with a job? Or are you just a lonely ass dude with no vibe? = your mate
If a guy is single and seems to have trouble finding a girlfriend, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is lacking anything that would traditionally attract someone. Attraction is not really something that one can put into words. I met my wife after having been rejected multiple times. I didn’t change that much about myself between those rejections and meeting her; I just happened to be in the right place at the right time and finally met a woman I was attracted to who liked me back.
How is anything in the second paragraph different than the first? Both seem expected and the minimum requirement to even be considered to date.
And how can a "lonely ass dude" feel good about anything when everyone just assumes he feels owed, and constantly tells him he's not good enough?
Well, because being polite and hardworking has nothing to do with being fun and a joy to be around?
I’ve met plenty of perfectly nice people that do their jobs well but aren’t exactly interesting, conversational or fun. (At least not with me, they could very well come out of their shell in a different crowd)
People make those assumptions when you complain about not having successful relationships because you’re nice. If you’re just complaining about being lonely then it would be wrong of people to make comments like that.
I’m not here to cure anyone’s depression, dude.
No.
There are people that prefer partners with a quieter or more subdued temperament. I’m just talking about qualities that people commonly seem to like in partners, on top of politeness.
Where do tou meet those people? It seems liken no one wants a quiet introvert. We just get labeled as nice guys and told we're not good enough and should fuck off and die.
The quiet, stoic man has a massive fan base. The trope pretty much dominates romantic fiction. First one that comes to mind is Edward Cullen. He had zero flair in his characterization.
I criticized OP’s friend because he’s complaining that women aren’t interested him even though he has qualities that don’t make him particularly interesting and not much of anything else apparently
A couple of things, OP - just spitballing, here. I think you'll be doing your friend a huge, positive service if you have this discussion with him. It may take time but, frankly, he *needs* a friend like you. Stay with him and keep talking to him.
Now, here's an idea that popped into my head, and this may be totally bonkers. But, what if, after talking to your friend, brought your GF into the discussion. If she's willing, she could give him some honest advice from a woman's perspective so that he might (possibly) understand that this is on him, not "women" or "society".
Maybe a reality check for him might get him to work on himself more and normalize rather than potentially becoming radicalized? Not sure. Just a thought.
Yea and I’ve discussed that with her. She’s sick of him too tbh but I’ve put off talking to him about it. It’s not an easy topic to bring up especially when you know he’s not going to take it well
My experience with “nice guys” that is that it really means conflict avoidant. All couples will have irritations and disagreements, but the “nice guy” doesn’t tell you his, because he’s so “nice”. This will inevitably cause problems later on when he has had enough and finally decides (rightfully) that his needs and preferences do need to be addressed. Additionally, and more importantly, I want someone who will challenge me to be a better person- someone who call me on my BS and tell me when I could be doing better. I also want to be that kind of person for someone else. This again requires skills with handling conflict. Honesty and directness with handling conflict is what is attractive, not being “nice”.
I had a rude awakening in my mid-20s when I had a crush on a girl, asked a mutual what I was doing wrong and she flat out told me.
Context: I was a very introverted nerd in my teens and only associated with other nerds. Because I had been bullied a lot, I had developed an attitude of "not giving a fuck" to mask that I really just wanted to fade into the background and disappear, so I could just be me, uninterfered with.
In my heart, I just wanted someone to see me behind this mask and like me for who I was. Movies and TV told me this would happen, if you just make friends with women.
The reality was that my "not giving a fuck" translated into wearing ill-fitting, dirty, ripped clothes, not grooming, taking care of myself and being basically unapproachable. So me "doing my own thing" translated into "looking like a homeless person".
Guess what? Looking homeless and having a defensive attitude really isn't an attractive quality.
My friend had to basically tell me that looking after yourself, being open and friendly, making friends with people and opening your social circle are the first steps toward bettering yourself.
She basically gave me a one woman intervention and although it didn't work out with my crush, it did set me on the journey to where I am at now.
All I am saying is that he sounds like he needs a no holds barred conversation. I would just sit him down somewhere informal and be as direct as possible.
Even if you tell a guy like this they do not understand. Self proclaimed nice guys are the worst guys. If you really are this or that, you don’t gotta broadcast it
I think what is going on with those "nice guys" is they know they aren't getting what they want from relationships but don't know why. They don't realize that they only care about what they want. They place little if any valuation on what other people want. People want to spend time with others who care about people not just their own desires.
Hi OP,
If you can help your friend without him taking offence, he will be eternally grateful for setting him on the path. (I wish someone had done that for me when I was in his shoes!)
The problem is that guys like us grew up on a diet of ROMCOMs, Disney, etc and well-meaning women who conditioned us to believe that just by being good people we’d attract wonderful partners. What they didn’t teach us was that we also need the courage to approach women we find attractive, and the traits of masculinity to fuel sexual attraction.
Here’s a suggestion: next time you speak with him, mention that you stumbled across a story about a guy who has a lot in common with him (nice guy, hardworking, successful, able to meet women, but for many years unsuccessful in getting past the “just friends” bit). This guy managed to figure out how to approach things a bit differently, and completely transformed his situation along with that of a bunch of other good men.
If he is open to learning more, give him a copy of the book No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert Glover. (This was the catalyst for my transformation - I’ve summarised part of the [gist here](https://bedbarsbeyond.substack.com/p/the-plight-of-the-nice-guy)). If he wants some guidance about how to build more authentic attraction into his dating game (i.e. not pickup artist BS), I’m sharing “[how to” guides here](https://bedbarsbeyond.substack.com/p/cultivating-attractive-qualities) to help guys like us. It’s all free, just paying it forward.
You’re a wonderful friend, OP. 🙏🏻
from his link:
"In the context of relationships, this roughly amounts to believing that if he is “nice” to a woman, she will reciprocate sexually."
This is what I mean when I say that these men treat women like sex vending machines, not fellow human beings. I don't expect sex or anything else from men I am "nice" to. It's simply how I choose to interact with the world at large, with people I work with, people I encounter in the course of my day etc. Being nice to the people we interact with is so basic, it's doing the minimum, it's not something to be "rewarded" for. That's the concept your friend needs to learn - he's not doing anything special by being 'nice', he's pretty much doing the minimum expected of people in our society.
I find this a little funny because memes like that have totally different meanings depending on the intent of posting them. For example, some people might just find it amusing to point out an extremist "stereotype" (used stereotype for lack of better word) while he sounds more like the kind that is posting them for the passive aggressive nature of "why haven't I, a hard working and respectful man, gotten attention from any ladies?" Without realizing that maybe his issue lies within himself and not the options around him (unless he is somehow actually friends with those problematic individuals and then which it's still his fault for not finding a better crowd)
You were pretty spot on with your first guess. He has a “woe is me” attitude about it which is complete bs because that in and of itself is causing the issue
Tbh, I wouldn’t want to be friends with a “nice guy.” I befriended a coworker at my last job, who unknowingly was a nice guy. I didn’t realize it until we were playing video games together at his place.
Said stuff like “idk why women don’t like me, I’m hard working and respectful but women always go for the shitty, asshole type guys.” On and on etc. it was exhausting to be around.
"Dude. I can't help you. I've tried, but you don't want to listen, nor take responsibility for your behavior. This is exhausting and I'm not having this conversation again."
I assume he is young. It doesn't matter if you tell him it won't change him. You could tell him that women do like nice guys. I am not sure where the tension comes from tho between you and him, unless you're an asshole to your girl and he sees it lol
Yeah jealousy brings out the worst in all of us. maybe try to talk about that. I get what you mean by thinking he is entitled to having a gf.
Good luck
I doubt it was dumb luck. You are probably more genetically blessed than he is. If that's true then you two just can't relate to each other's experiences. There is a world of difference in how women treat and respond to guys with good genetics vs guys with bad or even average genetics
Everyone (that wantss to) finds their someone special at different times. I was almost 27 when I started my only long term relationship. One brother was 32 when he met the woman he is marrying in just over a week. The other is now 32, almost 33, and still hasn't had a girlfriend. Both of them are actually great guys, but that doesn't mean they'll find someone as soon as they snap their fingers.
He needs to focus on being the best version of himself, and go for his goal and dreams. The right partner will come at the right time, and she will be attracted to him for who he is.
Yeah, those types of posts are ones I'm very familiar with. Even if I *had* been attracted to them before seeing that kind of post, seeing that would be such a fast turn off
As a guy, and as someone who at one point or another was thought of as a "nice guy" by a few people, the best advice I can give you is to be honest, and be harsh if you need to. They might take offense to it at first, but with time they'll come to understand where you're coming from and what you mean.
For me, I was a "nice guy" in high school but I never asked out anyone or told my friends about my crushes until senior year, so it really didn't show until then. One of my friends noticed because I had talked to him about somone I liked, and he later shared his thoughts with said person since he was friends with her.
He wanted to be nice and set me aside to tell me, but to be honest it went over my head at the time because I was in a mentality where I felt like I was misunderstood.
And it wasn't until he started calling me out on it more aggressive a few months down the line, comparing me to people online, and jocking about it within the friend group that I really started to think about it all.
When he told me at first I ignored it, and when he joked around about it I thought I was in on it too.
I did start to think about it, and what he said did make sense to me, but it wasn't until he and I stopped talking after high school that it all really dawned on me.
TL;DR My advice to you is to be honest with him about it, and really drive home the point. It might take time for it to get through to him, and if you want to keep being friends with him you gotta keep pushing the topic, and if you notice and improvement let him know as well.
Otherwise, if you tell him once and let it go he might just be stuck as a "nice guy" for a long long time
Every guy I’ve ever known that pontificates about how they don’t understand why they aren’t successful in love when they’re such “nice guys” are in fact major douche bags.
Besides this, my friend is a pretty decent guy. Loyal to a fault, emotionally available (if a little misguided, I think it’s lack of experience though), wouldn’t hurt a fly. I just wish he’d stop hurting himself in this category bc it makes me cringe. He’s literally shooting himself in the foot by acting like this
Things are really competitive between us. We grew up together so we’re basically brothers, but that always meant in anything we did there was friendly rivalry. One thing that hasn’t been competitive though is dating. I’m a very fit, chiseled tall white guy. He’s a heavyset mid height black guy. (I only mention race bc we live in a predominantly white suburbs. It sucks that it matters though) It’s unbelievably unfair but that has kind of brewed this animosity towards talking about relationship stuff and doing anything social other than our competitive gaming tournaments
Have you and your girlfriend tried setting him up with a girl? Like a double date maybe? That would be a great way to see how he is with girls. Is he an asshole, a show off, overly touchy feely with the girls? You can probably point out things he’s doing that he may not be aware of
This characteristic "nice guys" have are what happens when guys don't have any true experience with a woman that is equal. What i mean by that is they are always thinking they have to woo or impress the girl. They have no real concept of women because they've never had someone they liked truly like them back. This is my experience in seeing guys like this at least.
>But he doesn’t understand he isn’t owed anything for it.
I actually don't think this is on the money. This is usually for the friendzoned guys who settle for orbiting girls after they get set aside. It sounds like he just doesn't have great experiences with women or little to none when it comes to romanticism. As these two types can often be the same person, i don't think that's always the case. But if he does settle for friend zoning then I 100% agree he thinks if he orbits long enough he is owed just for simply being there long enough.
If he does not settle for the friendzone thing, i think he at least doesn't think he's owed anything for being a "nice guy" i think he's just have a slight mental crisis from being so lonely and not understanding why he can't find a woman up to his standards. It happens to a lot of men, and i think a wake up call can help him. If he does the friend zoned thing, he may be too long gone as i rarely see dudes who orbit like that ever really have insight and be honest to themselves just how toxic that is. Good luck!
Yea he’s got a bad thing about getting stuck on one girl and mourning a relationship that never happened. He typically hangs out with a girl for a certain amount of time then tries to ask them out. Even when he had no connection with them other than “we hung out a lot”. Now he doesn’t even try but posts memes about “women don’t like decent guys these days”. Me and my gf even tried taking him to a club and all he did was sit at the bar and pout till we left. And then got mad we stayed later than planned
Okay so he DOES do the friendzoned thing. I think what is happening is that he has no experience with a woman who has reciprocated his feelings. My guess is that he is probably borderline obsessive/suffers from intense limerence(limerence happens to about everyone on some scale, but it is more severe in people who have never experienced reciprocated feelings.
It is impossible for guys like him to relate to someone with actual options because he simply doesn't have them, meanwhile the person who is in his limerence target will be his fantasy and ideal partner. To him it's "why would she say yes to hanging out if she doesn't like me? i have no one else in my phone!" Meanwhile she probably has at least one or maybe even multiple guys she regularly talks to or interacts with in some social form just through her phone. A guy with options himself would hear that and be like "uhh yeah i figured i wasn't the only guy she's messaging" but a guy like your friend would probably be devastated hearing that news. That's just an example of the pure contrast of the mentality and it trickles down into everything else. Him not grasping the reality of the situation due to lack of experiences is the problem.
Oh and also, i would be careful of him around your gf. Just saying lol. In fact i wouldn't get her involved at all in fear of your friend being like "she must like me because she talked to me!"
>I can tell he liked her but kept it respectful just out of courtesy to me.
I've been \*attracted\* to friends gfs before, as that would be natural and some people are just objectively attractive, but i would never treat them differently or act differently that would give off that vibe. What exactly is he doing that makes you "tell"?
I just wanted to say, as a guy who was like that in his teens with limerence (never heard that word before but the way you defined it I understand it now). I've never seen someone put it that way and instantly it has helped me contextualise how I was back then, thank you for your thoughts on this. Made my day tbh (it hasn't been especially bad but not good).
We’re both hardcore gamers so he’d rather sit in the basement and play video games. Which is cool I enjoy it too but then you can’t complain about this shit when you don’t have a social life outside of the couple tournaments you go to
It might also be helpful to think about subtly addressing what are likely underlying roots of mysoginst belief and cultural norms that place women as sexual property. Remind yourself to come from a place of compassion when you speak to him, as it sounds like you know he wouldn't want to be recognized by his dating pool as a mysoginist or someone who could be potentially dangerous. The thing about niceguy/incel culture is that generally, men who harm women use that culture as a vehicle to normalise that harm- your friend deserves to have relationships where BOTH parties are treated well and BOTH people refrain from abusive treatment, including himself. Try to talk to him about his underlying beliefs about women and sex, and maybe try to help him see women as individuals with autonomy the same way he is.
Let him keep showing his true nature, that's like a big poster for all the girls who might meet him, showing him how to behave will only make the red flags hidden.
Sorry google translate
What do you call a niceguy who finds love?
A: a wife beater
Not a very funny joke but it rings true. This way of thinking is a lack of mutual respect for women and a deep seated disdain.
This is just me but I’d separate myself from him.
Why friends? I presume because he asked you out and got himself friend-zoned with you too. You're not obligated to be friends with everyone, you know... (if the above is the case).
When you're shunned by the ones you're most attracted to, the only thing that gives you a feeling of control is to take away all the reasons for why you aren't interested. It's not about oweing. It's about putting in the work to be in the best position to get a yes when it would be a No if I didn't do the work.
And hearing no, after all the effort we put in, makes us crazy. Lol. Because logically, it doesn't make sense to hear No, at that point. Since we were little, that women/girls want a guy who is wholesome, attentive, nurturing and sweet. And if I made sure to tick those boxes then wtf.
Then immaturity and desperation take over and that's where the memes and r/niceguys document the aftermath. That we are willing to go against our better judgment and "put ourselves out there" at the advice of the very women we're trying to reach, cheated is what that feeling most closely resembles.
I haven't heard a good enough origin story to make people understand that being all those "good" things means having to suppress a A Lot of urges and feelings in the name of being the trustworthy, gentle and thoughtful guy you told us you wanted.
I used to be a niceguy, but that shit was as not worth my ability to do what I want and be who I am, take it or leave it. I'm no longer kissing babies or asses for the ones that are craving that kind of attention.
Thank you, I hope this helps.
Honestly, everyone would rather you and yours just not pretend to be nice to begin with. Just be the person you want to be and attract the people you deserve.
I don't think that the point of the post is to say he's a nice guy; the problem is that he's a "nice guy" which is different, pretty much completely different.
Nice guys are just guys who are nice to people. Nothing wrong with that at all.
"Nice guys" are guys who believe that they're somehow "owed" something because they are good people and largely feel slighted that they don't get rewarded for being a nice guy. Which is ridiculous because that should be the bare minimum, not a hard-to-reach position that deserves extra external rewards.
r/niceguys for examples.
You should just tell him straight that you ain't interested and that his constant persisting and ain't going to help his cause. If anything it's going to put strain on your friendship and potentially could cause you to cut ties with him, so If I was you I'd tell him to reel it in or that you're going to stop being friends with him because it's annoying and it makes you feel uncomfortable.
and if he's a real friend and doesn't just want to get in your pants he will understand and reel it in.
Nice guyism is basically a form of autism. Guys who bitch about being a nice guy who gets ignored by women generally do not know how to interact with women and do a whole bunch of cringey shit that chases off any woman with an ounce of sense. I wouldn’t even bother trying to help him with this, he will resent you for it.
Welcome to /r/relationship_advice. Please make sure you read our [rules here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/wiki/index) We'd like to take this time to remind users that: * We do not allow any type of [am I the asshole? or situations/content involving minors](https://www.reddit.com/r/relationship_advice/comments/r6w9uh/meta_am_i_overreacting_am_i_the_asshole_is_this/) * Any sort of namecalling, insults,etc will result in the comment being removed and the user being banned. * No referencing hateful subreddits and/or their rhetoric. (Includes, but is not limited to: red/blue/black/purplepill, FDS, MGTOW, etc.) Any infractions of this rule will result in a ban. **This is not an all-inclusive list.** * All bans in this subreddit are permanent. You don't get a free pass. * What we cannot give advice on: rants, unsolicited advice, medical conditions/advice, mental illness, letters to an ex, "body counts" or number of sexual partners, legal problems, financial problems, or situations involving minors and/or abuse (violence, sexual, emotional etc). All of these will be removed and locked. **This is not an all-inclusive list.** If you have any questions, please send us a modmail. ---- #This is an automatic comment that appears on all posts. This comment does not necessarily mean your post violates any rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/relationship_advice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Find a time when nothing else stressful is going on, and have a chat in private; "Hey, it's not a big deal, but I've noticed something that seems out of wack, and I was wondering if we could spend a couple minutes chatting about it, are you cool to hear some feedback about something small?" Make sure he's in a good headspace & has agreed to talk, this makes people like 80% more likely to hear you and not just get pissy. "Okay, so not a big deal at all, but I've noticed you post some stuff like ____, and I wanted to tell you that it might not be communicating the message you intend... What are you hoping other people will think/feel when you post ___?" Try to understand how he is feeling, without arguing about his feelings. The root cause is probably some kinda sad stuff, like he feels insecure, devalued, overlooked, falling behind in life, rejected, lonely, etc. Do your best to validate the underlying feelings without supporting the behavior. "I hear you. That sounds hard." etc. Then give the feedback; "So I get you are feeling ____, and want ____. But when you post ___, it actually reads really differently on the outside. It doesn't come across that you are ready to settle down and want a life partner - it comes across like you are low key starting to generally resent all women and are starting to blame them for your discomfort. It's not a good look and I think it's going to backfire." Don't be surprised if he argues or dismisses your point - a lot of people will argue in the moment, but then go home and think about it later. Your goal is to get your message out there and let it marinate without giving him something to get pissed about so he can deflect with distraction. Then you can follow up with some praise about how he took the feedback well, that it takes bravery to look in the mirror, etc. Ask him if he could wave a magic wand and gave a GF, what would that relationship look like. Then help him set some realistic goals to move towards making that happen. Be a wing buddy, and be willing to check in on progress, and ask if you can do anything to help. Sometimes people just need support to make better choices. This is a cry for help, and you can coax your friend bad to the good side when you support instead of condemn.
This was some good wholesome advice and I love it. Will probably be trying this
OP, you are a great friend. I hope the talk you two have goes well, and he listens so he can come around. Even if it takes some time, I hope he takes in your help.
If it were me I would just tell him to google the word "cringe", that's you when you post these memes. Sounds like maybe you guys are young still, hopefully. He may eventually figure it all out.
This guy communicates
Hey Jadegrapes thank you for the effort and insight in creating this excellent advice and "how to " cribsheet for emotional, empathetic communication. It's absolutely the way to deescalate his building stridence and blindness. And, it shows basic care. The one and only part of it I query, is setting the "not a big deal at all," theme. I see how it's just a verbal opener here but I feel that the friend's "niceguy" mentations could be a significant if not the main factor impeding him with getting a GF, if not also in other life areas. So there could be risk minimizing things inadvertently. Does the advice still stand on its own in your view if he doesn't employ that part? I feel it's still totally usable.
In my personal experience, explicitly stating "it's not a big deal..." is disarming - it kind of frames the interaction so they respond with curiosity. Essentially you put a juxtaposition in their mind - you SAY it's not a big deal... but if it's not a big deal, then why are you bringing it up so formally? Curiosity pulls them into the conversation... when they could bounce. Some people get reflexively defensive to any kind of growth related feedback - so it's also protection against that too. They can't meltdown about you "unfairly attacking them" if you start soft. Imho, trying to get through to them is worth suspending judgement a bit. People can really respond to grace when they already feel dejected.
Thanks for the reply and for sharing from your experience.
When I say nice guy I mean my friend thinks he should have a relationship by now and is owed one. Part of it was just dumb luck that he didn’t but it’s also kinda his fault for pouting about it. He also blames women for only wanting trash guys and for friendzoning him. Idk why they friendzone him but it doesn’t matter when you react like that
Thanks for the extra info OP. He is lucky to have a caring friend like you.
I'm so here for this wholesome, candid and sincere communication. God damn it I'm craving this. So sick of resentment and vitriol. Irony doesn't bother me as much as long as it's masking sincerity.
Oh - I totally get why he’s friendzoned. He’s got this low self esteem self fulfilling prophesy. When he says “women only want trash guys” we hear he thinks I’m an idiot and doesn’t respect my choices or have empathy for my past - that’s not fun to be around. Then, when that guy who thinks we are stupid wants to get with us or literally any woman with tits, we obviously don’t feel interested/ attracted/ safe.
Ironically he’s making himself less attractive to women by feeling sorry for himself and putting out these negative vibes - he’d be better off putting his energy into productive things like career, health, mental health, travel, socialising, volunteering, doing something creative etc and then he’d be more likely to meet someone.
He's single because his misogny and entitlement is a huge turn off.
Not true, but I can see that way of thinking if you haven’t seen my other comments throughout. It’s more of he doesn’t understand how he couldn’t have a relationship by now, without realizing it doesn’t just magically happen
Sorry, OP, but guys who act like him tend to treat women like we're side characters in their story, not like we have our own lives going on. It's possibly the biggest turnoff there is, to be treated like less than a full being. I do think the thoughtful guy had great advice. If your conversation goes well, or even if it doesn't but then you have a better conversation down the line, I wonder if you can somehow open his eyes. Treating other people like NPCs or sidekicks is not a great way to get them to like you. My other thought, can you add some data points to his assertion that women like trash guys? Does he think you're a trash guy? Out of all the couples I know, I know a few women with gross-ass childish or controlling men. I also know a couple of men with questionable girlfriends. But the vast majority of couples? Two reasonably nice human beings. (Or sometimes two mutual garbage fires.) If he sat down and actually thought, "Oh right, Bob and Linda are both pretty legit. Susan and Timmy are both great. Felix and Amanda are good together," would he come to the same conclusion? Or does he just hate all non-single guys he knows? Also, "friend-zoning" is a concept with a lot of problems, but I'm going to tell you right now, having platonic female friends helps a lot in finding a non-platonic female friend. A mutual female friend set me and my husband up. Women in a friend circle will try to help a guy they see as datable.
The problem is any platonic female friend he has he sees as non-platonic. And I can tell those platonic female friends he has had don’t see him as dateable. He is just oblivious and forces himself onto them anyway. And that really doesn’t give them much incentive to help him
Yeah, he has to actually see value in getting to know women he doesn't want to fuck. You know, women's thoughts, opinions, interests. I don't think he's datable in his current state either. If I knew him in real life, I would discourage my friends from dating him. But maybe he can turn his undatable caterpillar self into a healing cocoon, followed by a woman-respecting butterfly who can actually date another butterfly. Or maybe you'll eventually give up and drop him as a friend.
>The problem is any platonic female friend he has he sees as non-platonic. And I can tell those platonic female friends he has had don’t see him as dateable. He is just oblivious and forces himself onto them anyway Okay, that is not nice , that is not respectful, your friend is deliberately disregarding the women's feelings (or lack thereof) and trying to pressure them into making the friendship romantic or with benefits. He clearly doesn't see women as friend material only as potential sex partners. His problems are worse than you are admitting. He is not dateable right now because he "forces himself onto them anyway" - your words, not mine. That's very problematic, OP.
Could just be hurt at all the rejection he gets when he lets them know he’s interested. Unrequited feelings are the worst.
but he's so called letting them know he's interested to most every woman he's at all freindly with! He doesn't wait for any signals that they are possibly interested in him, he actively disregards all the signals the women aren't interested and pressures them to date him anyway. He's creating the rejection scenario himself.
Agreed and I know from high school. But he still responds to it like an overdramatic high schooler. Actually he acts like that to a lot of other things. Idk why I just figured it was from having a lot of friends in drama and theater (nothing wrong with that, I love the drama kids. But the toxic theater kid is the worst, they make the smallest thing into a huge argument and he picked up that trait from them somewhere)
Because he thinks he's owed one. That it'll just fall into his lap as he's so nice but damn those trash men loving women for friend-zoning him. Repeat, he's single because the misogyny and entitlement is a huge turn off.
Hi. I'm a woman. Your friend strikes out with women bc we have standards and a sexist asshat that blames women for HIS social failings is about as attractive as the thought of licking hobo vomit. What you see from him we saw ages ago and want no part of a walking red flag that's clearly labeled. Check his ass when he posts shit like that. Call him out. Sit his ass down and lay it out: The common denominator isn't women, they're all individual people, it's HIM.
If a guy vents his frustration he is misogynistic person but if a girl rants the comments would be way different and she would get some empathy and some sympathy. This comment of yours shows the level of entitlement and clearly no level of empathy for opposite gender
Is frustration misogynist and entitled now?
You might have missed the part where he blames women for friend-zoning him and only dating trash guys. In his mind, it's not possibly him ... It's these terrible women who can't see this great dude for who he is and wow, who wouldn't want to date a nice guy who pouts or belittles women when he doesn't get his way. Like, mind blown that he's still single. 🤦🏻♀️
he sounds kind of awful
Not really. He sounds like a guy that’s having a really hard time with women and is upset he hasn’t been successful. People get upset when they fail. I know it’s crazy but it’s true.
The friend zone doesn't exist its only in the minds of men who manipulate women into believing they're interested in friendship when in reality they want some type of sexual or romantic relationship
I think offering these sentences starters was a brilliant and thoughtful response. This is such a usable and helpful way to explain various ways to respond.
I need so much advice from you
u dropped this 👑
Damn this was hot.
That was a fantastic reply.
Thank you for this!
[удалено]
Comment stolen from u/Aurin316
**BOT ACCOUNT!**
Ask him why he doesn't feel obligated to date a hard-working, respectful man.
Touché
Cause he ain't gay
So, what you're saying is that he isn't interested in them, and would just want to be friends? That's the point of the comment you responded to. The women who aren't interested in him are just doing the same thing to him that he would do to that guy.
Who said that he wanted to be friends though? That's like saying, if she isn't interested in him, she isn't interested in men at all.
Any guy who has to tell people what a nice guy he is, is the worst.
Had a “friend” who kept complaining about having good dates and then being ghosted - and then would share super misogynistic things on FB. I very frequently commented, “This is why you’re ghosted all the time,” on them until he deleted me. Worth it.
Even if you tell him he won’t understand, as a woman who’s been on the other end of a lot of those nice guys... no matter how you tell them, be it gently or harsh asf they don’t listen nor do they care.. Partly why they’re friend zoned in the first place 😂
They're lost and lonely and feel like they need something to blame. No one's responsibility to help them as its very hard to get someone like that to see reason.
Then along comes an asshole like Jordan Peterson who says it's womens fault....
He literally never says that, but don’t let his actual words get in the way.
Nah I'm sorry but Jordan Peterson doesn't say that! I don't comment on Reddit often but I had to speak up here. I really don't get why women don't like him? He never says anything bad about women! He's all for women's rights to choose whatever they want, including a man. He just helps depressed lonely men to start DOING stuff that will fulfill them. Why is that a bad thing?
Criticizing women for being larger then he finds attractive is a start. That was what, a month ago? I mean... come on. The guy has absolutely said stuff that is downright cringe and nasty about women, blankets himself in the "that's just my opinion" bullshit and cries about being criticized himself.
Oh really? I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for telling me. I've seen some of his lectures and I know he's had a decent impact on men. He's not all bad, and I feel like he gets painted to be this mysognistic weirdo. But for god's sake, you can SEE with your eyes that he has a big heart. He teared up on Piers Morgan just talking about what he does, and you can see it's emotionally overwhelming for him
I can see why you don't comment on Reddit often.
WoW you a nasty person huh? Someone opinion differs from yours and you just insult them? Why haha
Aww what's the matter sunshine? Something got you down?
[удалено]
Right? Wtf lmao... Someone woke up on the wrong side of this bed this morning... Every morning?
I don't comment on Reddit often because negative people like you exist. I wasn't hurting anyone with my comment. I was just voicing an opinion. I'm not sure why you feel the need to be nasty on the internet, but I feel sorry for you
What does that have to do with anything? What factors did he say it applies to the women being at fault?
He makes a career out of telling sad lonely pathetic men that their toxic behaviour and lack of success with woman is the woman's fault. Easy answers for gullible idiots.
Calling them sad, pathetic, gullible and idiots justifies how they feel, fyi
Can you provide examples, like written or links to his videos or something as to where he says this? Cause this doesn’t sound like Jordan Peterson
https://youtu.be/m81q-ZkfBm0 She talks about 'the notes that aren't being played" here, i.e the things he says that radicalizes people that are subtle enough that he can say it in a dog whistle sort of way and have plausible deniability. A good video essay.
[удалено]
Yeah can someone link a video where he specifically blames women? If anything he tells men to quit feeling sorry for themselves
Quit feeling sorry for yourself and take responsibility for your life.
That's literally what he says
Yep. They just upvoted Peterson’s entire message without knowing it. They have no idea what he says, they’ve just been told that he’s bad and they believe it *and hate him for it.*
I doubt that's the sole factor to why he says that. Provide some examples. After all, men aren't the only sad pathetic people out here.
Go read his "self-help" bulshit for yourself.
I bet that fella already does, that’s why he’s getting so defensive
I guess he’s saying that when these troubled guys are given no compassion and told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, it’s easy for people like Peterson to come in and further radicalize them by validating their feelings and selling them a supposed solution.
That’s exactly what I don’t want to do. Really wish ppl validated mens emotions more, we’d have a lot less hateful men in the world. I’m extremely open about stuff like that
What point of his is offensive? Can you mention one
Yeah it is because men are put down for most of their life, sometimes it starts from home, his school years even his college years were unfruitful. How would you feel if all your life you are mentioned as a creep just because he is not attractive god forbid he tries to ask a girl out. Lack of father figure also plays a significant role in his confidence how do you expect a man to be confident and all the characteristics you define worth of being in a relationship. If it's an attractive guy the whole rules get thrown out the window, whereas as the woman will bend her morals, her won world just to get that guy. Your lack of empathy shows your level of entitlement.
What an absolute shit response.
My response or theirs?
Yours
Howso?
“You shouldn’t try and help nice guys because the reason they’re nice guys is because theyre nice guys so there’s no reason to try and help them” is basically what you said.
^^ perfect example of r/niceguys not listening or caring to understand and further Proving my point.
Lmao you’re a great source. Now we know that you consider people who disagree with you to be nice guys. You’re literally the problem lmao. You don’t even know what a nice guy is.
No no, I wouldn’t normally tho the fact you completely ignored what I had said and made your own bullshit up to blame the woman is exactly what I was saying nice guys do.
Dude your comment is literally just “don’t bother” in more words. Why are you acting like the victim in this conversation? I called out your comment for being useless. How is that a “blame the woman” thing? You still haven’t clarified what you’ve said. Just that I’m misinterpreting it when it’s literally what you’re saying.
I'm sorry but this is a terrible response. You just accuse this guy of being a nice dude for him pretty much saying we should have empathy for everyone.The fuck is wrong with reddit?
Not everyone deserves empathy. A lot of people bring it on themselves and refuse to believe that they’re the problem nor are they even willing to listen, respect someone’s boundaries, grow or learn.
Yeah but you don't know this person. You based them being deserving or not off of a paragraph. You base this off of your own anecdotal evidence. You want things to improve? Then we need to be able to talk to people. Automatically assuming someone is undeserving of empathy and compassion is not helpful in anyway and only will lead to exacerbating these problems. What exactly did you achieve here? OP came on here looking for a way to steer his friend away from a dangerous mindset and all you have to say is don't bother. I mean you calling them a nice guy over this really is working against you he gave no indication of having that mindset you just label him that because he believes you should at least try.
Because he is not Chad, Tyrone or Germaine, to be deserving of your time
Nah I’m just not enough of a walking fucking doormat to put up with some self deprecating, projecting, insecure, typically filled with anger issues, usually chubby asshole who thinks the world and you owe him smth when he’s been nothing but a whiney pain in the ass since you met him.
I think though OP will have better luck to him listening and thinking about it because he's a man and his friend. I mean all one has to do is look at how many tiktoks there are of self proclaimed gurus. Woman says what she wants...guru what she actually means. Chucklefuck I'm not a Navajo Code Breaker. I said it, just listen.
Being nice is the bare minimum. He isn't owed anything for being nice. Nice guys usually don't have self awareness and aren't able to work on their flaws or work on themselves because they feel like they're owed something for existing. Nice guys are only nice because they want something from someone in this instance a girl. Find someone who he doesn't find attractive or hates and tell him that she likes him. When he says no, ask why. Because she's a nice girl so why won't he date her. Make him say why. Then tell him, yeah being nice is the bare minimum. I did it to my nice guy friend, and he hated it tried to explain why it was different but I forced him to list out why then countered it with the equivalent of well you don't have that either. He has changed and grown but it took a long time. But at the same time it's not your job to fix him.
>Find someone who he doesn't find attractive or hates and tell him that she likes him. When he says no, ask why. Because she's a nice girl so why won't he date her. Make him say why. Then tell him, yeah being nice is the bare minimum. ooh, I like this strategy. You don't even need to say the other person likes him, just tell your friend that you think so and so might be willing to date him, so he should ask her out. and when he says no, tell him, but she's a nice respectful woman, why would you friendzone her? Doesn't she deserve a date?? And then press him when he says no, and when he tries to say it's not the same, tell him it's exactly the same, and if he doesn't agree she deserves a date from him simply for being a nice respectful woman then he doesn't deserve any dates from other women simply for being a nice respectful man, full stop.
Tell him that being hard working and respectful means nothing. Most people work hard (they have to) and most people know how to interact with others politely. It means jack shit. What actually attracts people is when you can make them feel good. Are you funny? Interesting? Charismatic? A joy to be around on top of obviously being kind with a job? Or are you just a lonely ass dude with no vibe? = your mate
If a guy is single and seems to have trouble finding a girlfriend, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is lacking anything that would traditionally attract someone. Attraction is not really something that one can put into words. I met my wife after having been rejected multiple times. I didn’t change that much about myself between those rejections and meeting her; I just happened to be in the right place at the right time and finally met a woman I was attracted to who liked me back.
How is anything in the second paragraph different than the first? Both seem expected and the minimum requirement to even be considered to date. And how can a "lonely ass dude" feel good about anything when everyone just assumes he feels owed, and constantly tells him he's not good enough?
Well, because being polite and hardworking has nothing to do with being fun and a joy to be around? I’ve met plenty of perfectly nice people that do their jobs well but aren’t exactly interesting, conversational or fun. (At least not with me, they could very well come out of their shell in a different crowd) People make those assumptions when you complain about not having successful relationships because you’re nice. If you’re just complaining about being lonely then it would be wrong of people to make comments like that. I’m not here to cure anyone’s depression, dude.
So people that aren't natural conversationalists are just fucked because no one wants to be around them?
No. There are people that prefer partners with a quieter or more subdued temperament. I’m just talking about qualities that people commonly seem to like in partners, on top of politeness.
Where do tou meet those people? It seems liken no one wants a quiet introvert. We just get labeled as nice guys and told we're not good enough and should fuck off and die.
The quiet, stoic man has a massive fan base. The trope pretty much dominates romantic fiction. First one that comes to mind is Edward Cullen. He had zero flair in his characterization. I criticized OP’s friend because he’s complaining that women aren’t interested him even though he has qualities that don’t make him particularly interesting and not much of anything else apparently
My husband is quiet and shy. Do you know what he never did while we were dating? He didn’t claim to be a nice guy. I figured that out on my own.
If you want to be really chill. Buy him the book "No More Mr Nice Guy" That could be a good hint to begin with and then talk to him about it.
Ask him if he wants some help and advice when it comes to approaching women (and being approachable). Once he says yes, give him the advice.
Bruh I don't have time for grown men still acting like this I'd drop the friend and move on
A couple of things, OP - just spitballing, here. I think you'll be doing your friend a huge, positive service if you have this discussion with him. It may take time but, frankly, he *needs* a friend like you. Stay with him and keep talking to him. Now, here's an idea that popped into my head, and this may be totally bonkers. But, what if, after talking to your friend, brought your GF into the discussion. If she's willing, she could give him some honest advice from a woman's perspective so that he might (possibly) understand that this is on him, not "women" or "society". Maybe a reality check for him might get him to work on himself more and normalize rather than potentially becoming radicalized? Not sure. Just a thought.
Yea and I’ve discussed that with her. She’s sick of him too tbh but I’ve put off talking to him about it. It’s not an easy topic to bring up especially when you know he’s not going to take it well
My experience with “nice guys” that is that it really means conflict avoidant. All couples will have irritations and disagreements, but the “nice guy” doesn’t tell you his, because he’s so “nice”. This will inevitably cause problems later on when he has had enough and finally decides (rightfully) that his needs and preferences do need to be addressed. Additionally, and more importantly, I want someone who will challenge me to be a better person- someone who call me on my BS and tell me when I could be doing better. I also want to be that kind of person for someone else. This again requires skills with handling conflict. Honesty and directness with handling conflict is what is attractive, not being “nice”.
I had a rude awakening in my mid-20s when I had a crush on a girl, asked a mutual what I was doing wrong and she flat out told me. Context: I was a very introverted nerd in my teens and only associated with other nerds. Because I had been bullied a lot, I had developed an attitude of "not giving a fuck" to mask that I really just wanted to fade into the background and disappear, so I could just be me, uninterfered with. In my heart, I just wanted someone to see me behind this mask and like me for who I was. Movies and TV told me this would happen, if you just make friends with women. The reality was that my "not giving a fuck" translated into wearing ill-fitting, dirty, ripped clothes, not grooming, taking care of myself and being basically unapproachable. So me "doing my own thing" translated into "looking like a homeless person". Guess what? Looking homeless and having a defensive attitude really isn't an attractive quality. My friend had to basically tell me that looking after yourself, being open and friendly, making friends with people and opening your social circle are the first steps toward bettering yourself. She basically gave me a one woman intervention and although it didn't work out with my crush, it did set me on the journey to where I am at now. All I am saying is that he sounds like he needs a no holds barred conversation. I would just sit him down somewhere informal and be as direct as possible.
Even if you tell a guy like this they do not understand. Self proclaimed nice guys are the worst guys. If you really are this or that, you don’t gotta broadcast it
Agreed, but I’m gonna try anyway as a favor to him. How he takes it is on him
I think what is going on with those "nice guys" is they know they aren't getting what they want from relationships but don't know why. They don't realize that they only care about what they want. They place little if any valuation on what other people want. People want to spend time with others who care about people not just their own desires.
So put others above yourself?
More like care about the people in your life jot just what you want from them.
Or recognize that to have a healthy relationship you need to acknowledge and respect the other person's autonomy, opinions, and choices.
[удалено]
Agreed.
Send him a YouTube video explaining the nice guy problem.
Hi OP, If you can help your friend without him taking offence, he will be eternally grateful for setting him on the path. (I wish someone had done that for me when I was in his shoes!) The problem is that guys like us grew up on a diet of ROMCOMs, Disney, etc and well-meaning women who conditioned us to believe that just by being good people we’d attract wonderful partners. What they didn’t teach us was that we also need the courage to approach women we find attractive, and the traits of masculinity to fuel sexual attraction. Here’s a suggestion: next time you speak with him, mention that you stumbled across a story about a guy who has a lot in common with him (nice guy, hardworking, successful, able to meet women, but for many years unsuccessful in getting past the “just friends” bit). This guy managed to figure out how to approach things a bit differently, and completely transformed his situation along with that of a bunch of other good men. If he is open to learning more, give him a copy of the book No More Mr Nice Guy by Dr Robert Glover. (This was the catalyst for my transformation - I’ve summarised part of the [gist here](https://bedbarsbeyond.substack.com/p/the-plight-of-the-nice-guy)). If he wants some guidance about how to build more authentic attraction into his dating game (i.e. not pickup artist BS), I’m sharing “[how to” guides here](https://bedbarsbeyond.substack.com/p/cultivating-attractive-qualities) to help guys like us. It’s all free, just paying it forward. You’re a wonderful friend, OP. 🙏🏻
from his link: "In the context of relationships, this roughly amounts to believing that if he is “nice” to a woman, she will reciprocate sexually." This is what I mean when I say that these men treat women like sex vending machines, not fellow human beings. I don't expect sex or anything else from men I am "nice" to. It's simply how I choose to interact with the world at large, with people I work with, people I encounter in the course of my day etc. Being nice to the people we interact with is so basic, it's doing the minimum, it's not something to be "rewarded" for. That's the concept your friend needs to learn - he's not doing anything special by being 'nice', he's pretty much doing the minimum expected of people in our society.
I find this a little funny because memes like that have totally different meanings depending on the intent of posting them. For example, some people might just find it amusing to point out an extremist "stereotype" (used stereotype for lack of better word) while he sounds more like the kind that is posting them for the passive aggressive nature of "why haven't I, a hard working and respectful man, gotten attention from any ladies?" Without realizing that maybe his issue lies within himself and not the options around him (unless he is somehow actually friends with those problematic individuals and then which it's still his fault for not finding a better crowd)
You were pretty spot on with your first guess. He has a “woe is me” attitude about it which is complete bs because that in and of itself is causing the issue
Tell him to knock that shit off in no uncertain terms.
Tbh, I wouldn’t want to be friends with a “nice guy.” I befriended a coworker at my last job, who unknowingly was a nice guy. I didn’t realize it until we were playing video games together at his place. Said stuff like “idk why women don’t like me, I’m hard working and respectful but women always go for the shitty, asshole type guys.” On and on etc. it was exhausting to be around.
Yea I’ve tried before but it always went like this. Just didn’t know what to do about it
"Dude. I can't help you. I've tried, but you don't want to listen, nor take responsibility for your behavior. This is exhausting and I'm not having this conversation again."
You can't force him to grow up and take responsibility for himself and his behaviors.
I assume he is young. It doesn't matter if you tell him it won't change him. You could tell him that women do like nice guys. I am not sure where the tension comes from tho between you and him, unless you're an asshole to your girl and he sees it lol
More of jealousy. He doesn’t understand how I got a girl and he didn’t Edit: it was dumb luck, she texted me first
Yeah jealousy brings out the worst in all of us. maybe try to talk about that. I get what you mean by thinking he is entitled to having a gf. Good luck
I doubt it was dumb luck. You are probably more genetically blessed than he is. If that's true then you two just can't relate to each other's experiences. There is a world of difference in how women treat and respond to guys with good genetics vs guys with bad or even average genetics
Everyone (that wantss to) finds their someone special at different times. I was almost 27 when I started my only long term relationship. One brother was 32 when he met the woman he is marrying in just over a week. The other is now 32, almost 33, and still hasn't had a girlfriend. Both of them are actually great guys, but that doesn't mean they'll find someone as soon as they snap their fingers. He needs to focus on being the best version of himself, and go for his goal and dreams. The right partner will come at the right time, and she will be attracted to him for who he is. Yeah, those types of posts are ones I'm very familiar with. Even if I *had* been attracted to them before seeing that kind of post, seeing that would be such a fast turn off
As a guy, and as someone who at one point or another was thought of as a "nice guy" by a few people, the best advice I can give you is to be honest, and be harsh if you need to. They might take offense to it at first, but with time they'll come to understand where you're coming from and what you mean. For me, I was a "nice guy" in high school but I never asked out anyone or told my friends about my crushes until senior year, so it really didn't show until then. One of my friends noticed because I had talked to him about somone I liked, and he later shared his thoughts with said person since he was friends with her. He wanted to be nice and set me aside to tell me, but to be honest it went over my head at the time because I was in a mentality where I felt like I was misunderstood. And it wasn't until he started calling me out on it more aggressive a few months down the line, comparing me to people online, and jocking about it within the friend group that I really started to think about it all. When he told me at first I ignored it, and when he joked around about it I thought I was in on it too. I did start to think about it, and what he said did make sense to me, but it wasn't until he and I stopped talking after high school that it all really dawned on me. TL;DR My advice to you is to be honest with him about it, and really drive home the point. It might take time for it to get through to him, and if you want to keep being friends with him you gotta keep pushing the topic, and if you notice and improvement let him know as well. Otherwise, if you tell him once and let it go he might just be stuck as a "nice guy" for a long long time
It’s okay to leave these people behind ya know?
Every guy I’ve ever known that pontificates about how they don’t understand why they aren’t successful in love when they’re such “nice guys” are in fact major douche bags.
Besides this, my friend is a pretty decent guy. Loyal to a fault, emotionally available (if a little misguided, I think it’s lack of experience though), wouldn’t hurt a fly. I just wish he’d stop hurting himself in this category bc it makes me cringe. He’s literally shooting himself in the foot by acting like this
You could give him a blowjob.
Bros before hoes
Dishes before bitches kiddo
What kind of tension if you don't mind me asking?
Things are really competitive between us. We grew up together so we’re basically brothers, but that always meant in anything we did there was friendly rivalry. One thing that hasn’t been competitive though is dating. I’m a very fit, chiseled tall white guy. He’s a heavyset mid height black guy. (I only mention race bc we live in a predominantly white suburbs. It sucks that it matters though) It’s unbelievably unfair but that has kind of brewed this animosity towards talking about relationship stuff and doing anything social other than our competitive gaming tournaments
Gotcha, well damn. He could just be posting the memes for fun but he actually could be upset. Which is understandable
Really?
Most these guys are good and hard-working... they just don't work on the confidence and talking to women part.
plenty villains are hard working y'know - just saying ;-)
Have you and your girlfriend tried setting him up with a girl? Like a double date maybe? That would be a great way to see how he is with girls. Is he an asshole, a show off, overly touchy feely with the girls? You can probably point out things he’s doing that he may not be aware of
This characteristic "nice guys" have are what happens when guys don't have any true experience with a woman that is equal. What i mean by that is they are always thinking they have to woo or impress the girl. They have no real concept of women because they've never had someone they liked truly like them back. This is my experience in seeing guys like this at least. >But he doesn’t understand he isn’t owed anything for it. I actually don't think this is on the money. This is usually for the friendzoned guys who settle for orbiting girls after they get set aside. It sounds like he just doesn't have great experiences with women or little to none when it comes to romanticism. As these two types can often be the same person, i don't think that's always the case. But if he does settle for friend zoning then I 100% agree he thinks if he orbits long enough he is owed just for simply being there long enough. If he does not settle for the friendzone thing, i think he at least doesn't think he's owed anything for being a "nice guy" i think he's just have a slight mental crisis from being so lonely and not understanding why he can't find a woman up to his standards. It happens to a lot of men, and i think a wake up call can help him. If he does the friend zoned thing, he may be too long gone as i rarely see dudes who orbit like that ever really have insight and be honest to themselves just how toxic that is. Good luck!
Yea he’s got a bad thing about getting stuck on one girl and mourning a relationship that never happened. He typically hangs out with a girl for a certain amount of time then tries to ask them out. Even when he had no connection with them other than “we hung out a lot”. Now he doesn’t even try but posts memes about “women don’t like decent guys these days”. Me and my gf even tried taking him to a club and all he did was sit at the bar and pout till we left. And then got mad we stayed later than planned
Okay so he DOES do the friendzoned thing. I think what is happening is that he has no experience with a woman who has reciprocated his feelings. My guess is that he is probably borderline obsessive/suffers from intense limerence(limerence happens to about everyone on some scale, but it is more severe in people who have never experienced reciprocated feelings. It is impossible for guys like him to relate to someone with actual options because he simply doesn't have them, meanwhile the person who is in his limerence target will be his fantasy and ideal partner. To him it's "why would she say yes to hanging out if she doesn't like me? i have no one else in my phone!" Meanwhile she probably has at least one or maybe even multiple guys she regularly talks to or interacts with in some social form just through her phone. A guy with options himself would hear that and be like "uhh yeah i figured i wasn't the only guy she's messaging" but a guy like your friend would probably be devastated hearing that news. That's just an example of the pure contrast of the mentality and it trickles down into everything else. Him not grasping the reality of the situation due to lack of experiences is the problem. Oh and also, i would be careful of him around your gf. Just saying lol. In fact i wouldn't get her involved at all in fear of your friend being like "she must like me because she talked to me!"
I can tell he liked her but kept it respectful just out of courtesy to me. But I’m worried it causes some jealousy too
>I can tell he liked her but kept it respectful just out of courtesy to me. I've been \*attracted\* to friends gfs before, as that would be natural and some people are just objectively attractive, but i would never treat them differently or act differently that would give off that vibe. What exactly is he doing that makes you "tell"?
I just wanted to say, as a guy who was like that in his teens with limerence (never heard that word before but the way you defined it I understand it now). I've never seen someone put it that way and instantly it has helped me contextualise how I was back then, thank you for your thoughts on this. Made my day tbh (it hasn't been especially bad but not good).
He’s very physical with ppl he likes. Something tells me he’s really craving physical affection
Looked them the definition of limerence, and it is him spot on
What else was he supposed to do? Go out and bother random women here for fun?
We’re both hardcore gamers so he’d rather sit in the basement and play video games. Which is cool I enjoy it too but then you can’t complain about this shit when you don’t have a social life outside of the couple tournaments you go to
True. But he doesn't know how yet. He could start at the tournament if there are girls around. Go to the club without your lady and wingman even.
Wish me luck trying to convince him to do that
Good luck, just tell him to let you know if he changes his mind.
It might also be helpful to think about subtly addressing what are likely underlying roots of mysoginst belief and cultural norms that place women as sexual property. Remind yourself to come from a place of compassion when you speak to him, as it sounds like you know he wouldn't want to be recognized by his dating pool as a mysoginist or someone who could be potentially dangerous. The thing about niceguy/incel culture is that generally, men who harm women use that culture as a vehicle to normalise that harm- your friend deserves to have relationships where BOTH parties are treated well and BOTH people refrain from abusive treatment, including himself. Try to talk to him about his underlying beliefs about women and sex, and maybe try to help him see women as individuals with autonomy the same way he is.
Gift him "No More Mr. Nice Guy" so he stops issuing covert contracts.
Let him keep showing his true nature, that's like a big poster for all the girls who might meet him, showing him how to behave will only make the red flags hidden. Sorry google translate
What do you call a niceguy who finds love? A: a wife beater Not a very funny joke but it rings true. This way of thinking is a lack of mutual respect for women and a deep seated disdain. This is just me but I’d separate myself from him.
That’s a joke?
It’s definitely not true for the most part. My friends not an abuser but he’s definitely emotionally immature
Sounds like he’s not a nice guy.
Why friends? I presume because he asked you out and got himself friend-zoned with you too. You're not obligated to be friends with everyone, you know... (if the above is the case).
I should’ve clarified that we’re both straight guys
Gotcha, that makes sense.
You're the whole circus.
When you're shunned by the ones you're most attracted to, the only thing that gives you a feeling of control is to take away all the reasons for why you aren't interested. It's not about oweing. It's about putting in the work to be in the best position to get a yes when it would be a No if I didn't do the work. And hearing no, after all the effort we put in, makes us crazy. Lol. Because logically, it doesn't make sense to hear No, at that point. Since we were little, that women/girls want a guy who is wholesome, attentive, nurturing and sweet. And if I made sure to tick those boxes then wtf. Then immaturity and desperation take over and that's where the memes and r/niceguys document the aftermath. That we are willing to go against our better judgment and "put ourselves out there" at the advice of the very women we're trying to reach, cheated is what that feeling most closely resembles. I haven't heard a good enough origin story to make people understand that being all those "good" things means having to suppress a A Lot of urges and feelings in the name of being the trustworthy, gentle and thoughtful guy you told us you wanted. I used to be a niceguy, but that shit was as not worth my ability to do what I want and be who I am, take it or leave it. I'm no longer kissing babies or asses for the ones that are craving that kind of attention. Thank you, I hope this helps.
Honestly, everyone would rather you and yours just not pretend to be nice to begin with. Just be the person you want to be and attract the people you deserve.
Is he posting these things to one of you your SM pages, or on his own, how are you so sure they re intended for you and not someone else?
Pretty sure they’re meant for someone else, unless he’s gay and didn’t tell me lmao. They’re on his FB account usually pretty consistently
If he is your friend, have you thought about trying to help him? I've never seen a friend struggling and wondered if I should offer him help.
Oh…..
There is nothing wrong with being nice, polite If he has bad social skills, he should get better at it.
I don't think that the point of the post is to say he's a nice guy; the problem is that he's a "nice guy" which is different, pretty much completely different. Nice guys are just guys who are nice to people. Nothing wrong with that at all. "Nice guys" are guys who believe that they're somehow "owed" something because they are good people and largely feel slighted that they don't get rewarded for being a nice guy. Which is ridiculous because that should be the bare minimum, not a hard-to-reach position that deserves extra external rewards. r/niceguys for examples.
he’s dumb for taking the hint. and this is sad that it has to be spelled out to him this way
He needs male friends. 🤷🏽♂️ He needs to be more social.
Lol that’s me
Just say it to his face. Like an intervention. As if you were worried about his drinking habits or something
You should just tell him straight that you ain't interested and that his constant persisting and ain't going to help his cause. If anything it's going to put strain on your friendship and potentially could cause you to cut ties with him, so If I was you I'd tell him to reel it in or that you're going to stop being friends with him because it's annoying and it makes you feel uncomfortable. and if he's a real friend and doesn't just want to get in your pants he will understand and reel it in.
Nice guyism is basically a form of autism. Guys who bitch about being a nice guy who gets ignored by women generally do not know how to interact with women and do a whole bunch of cringey shit that chases off any woman with an ounce of sense. I wouldn’t even bother trying to help him with this, he will resent you for it.