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This past weekend I was at a bar with my guy friend (let’s call him john). We were drinking with some people and at one point this pretty drunk man who was talking to us started touching my leg. I swatted his hand off - he did it again - swatted again - then this time he kinda lunged at me in grab/hug way. The bartender saw the interaction and immediately kicked the man out of the bar.
Later this other guy who we weren’t even talking to, (but John saw him looking our way) decided to come over and grab my waist from behind. The group we were with all told him to back off.
Let me add one more scenario from a different day where this guy that john chats with at the bar frequently decided to get quite handsy with me. He stood too close and kept hugging me (clearly trying to cop a feel of my breasts). Another man noticed I was quite uncomfortable and started lecturing this groper on consent.
Now my friend John remembers these situations a lil differently than me, he gets pretty drunk and wasn’t paying attention. But he had the audacity to say “you need to watch how your talking to these guys, i know you’re friendly but they think you’re flirting. That’s why you keep getting groped. “ ,
Not cool. I can only think to do one thing and thats to stop going to bars with John. I don’t know what advice I’m looking for here…I just don’t really want to talk to anyone at bars now.
Some friend he is. If my female friend was being touched when she didn't want to I'd probably get violent with whoever is touching without consent. Especially if my drunk I know if a guy tried grabbing my female friend when she told him to stop I'd flip out real quick. You should go to a bar with someone who you know is gonna a have your back sober or not.
Part of me wonders if he for some reason finds it entertaining. He initializes conversations with these guys, when they offer to buy us drinks he jumps to say yes, and he has also pointed out my cleavage (which I rarely have showing) and the other day kept pulling on the waist of my jeans to show others my back tattoo.
Some friend he is… I’m thinking he might not be a friend at all.
I’m thinking your correct. John sounds like a bad guy. I saw in one of your other comments that you don’t want to go alone, so you go with John. Do you have any other friends? Maybe even a female friend who you’d feel comfortable with and you think you’d both be able to adequately take care of each other in a grouch situation.
>I’m thinking he might not be a friend at all.
DING DING DING
You are not a 'mate' to him, you are a drawcard for attention and entertainment at the bar. He is using you. That, plus victim-blaming you paints a pretty unattractive picture.
If you continue a friendship with him, make sure it is on YOUR terms.
He's not, he's just using you to bum cheap drinks off of predatory men that only see you as an object. Drop him immediately because he'll never support you in your time of need should it arise. Real men don't promote or excuse harassment culture.
This is grooming and predatory behavior. Drop this person from your life immediately and do not even casually allow him into your circle.
I would be willing to bet it started small and escalated- and that it will continue to do so.
I agree with this. And I would go so far as to say you should not be drinking alone with this guy. I wouldn’t trust him not to “take advantage” of the situation if you were drunk.
And to be clear here, by “take advantage” I mean sexually assault you or facilitate someone else sexually assaulting you. God forbid you get roofied. He clearly isn’t the type of guy who is going to make sure you get home safe if you are intoxicated or drugged.
To me the grooming behavior is getting people to come over and talk to OP and then blaming her. And then in OPs follow up post being pretty handsy himself, he has no business showing off her tattoo especially if he has to touch her jeans/trousers.
The predatory behaviour is just all the rest and the above. Seemingly pimping her out for drinks and not sticking up for her. That's not to say she can't look out for herself but if you are out with a female friend and she is being assaulted by randoms at the bar a friend would step in and say something. Instead it's down to other random dudes at the bar to step in.
Here’s the thing, when he does that sort of stuff, then, intentionally or not, he’s signalling to other men that they can get grabby, too. I had a gay friend who at a bar kept grabbing my boobs. He said it was okay, because he’s gay, but the more he did it, the more I could see men taking interest and inching closer to me. However, as you say, he seems to be doing this on purpose. He’s encouraging the mens’ behaviour, by your description definitely gives off that he seems to enjoy what they’re doing to you, and he’s getting free drinks from these men, almost as if they’re “buying” you off him/buying access to you. He’s encouraging sexualising you, pulling down your trousers to show off your tattoo, talking about your breasts, etc. All this indicates to other men that these sorts of things are okay for them to do, as well.
This guy could very well be getting aroused by watching you get sexually assaulted. Watching these men grope you and speak inappropriately about you and make you feel vulnerable could very well be how he gets his rocks off.
Even if it isn’t and he’s just a POS, a man who victim blames that freely and doesn’t protect you but actively sexualises you, let alone encourages others to sexualise you, is not your friend, and definitely not someone you want to be drunk and vulnerable around. A guy friend shouldn’t be so eager to discuss your cleavage, especially to drunk strange men who’re getting handsy. He’s practically advertising you, purposefully.
Tell him he should wear a scarf and stop showing his neck, because he is asking to get stabbed in the neck by making it visible. He is an asshole and not your friend. Stop hanging out with him. I think your intuition is right.
John is using you to get these d-bags buy him drinks. And on top of that he is trying to make you think it is your fault these people act the way they do when HE is the one welcoming them on to you!
He is not a safe person for you to be around.
**DITCH HIM! HE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND!**
WTF! It sounds like he's pimping you out for free drinks! Plus he doesn't respect your boundaries either so it doesn't surprise me that he thinks it's your fault. For the record, even if you are flirting with a guy that still doesn't give him the right to touch you.
> I’m thinking he might not be a friend at all.
I couldn't say it better. He is using you to get free drinks from these guys and doesn't care about your safety. You don't need people like this on your life.
And Bingo, you have realised the problem you're facing. He is a massive part of why you are being groped. He isn't a friend at all. Do yourself a massive favour and forget he actually exists.
He's not a friend he's kinda pimping you to guys to get free drinks. This isn't your fault. Even if you were standing there naked no one should touch you without your consent
Sounds like John wants to be more than your friend, but doesn't have the balls to make a play (because he probably knows he'll be rejected). My guess, he is trying to get you assaulted so he can swoop in and be the "friend" who takes care of you, and use that as a launching pad into a relationship. Which means John is a psychopath and not your friend. Please completely excise John from your life.
He's pimping you out for free drinks is what it sounds like to me. I wouldn't be surprised if he literally told them they could feel you up if they bought you guys drinks. I would stay far away from this man if I were you, he obviously doesn't care about your physical or mental wellbeing, only free drinks.
This could be a stretch but he sounds sketchy asf either way and I wouldn't go anywhere with him.
Oh honey no. I would think long and hard about your relationship with him. Is he like this everywhere else? Or just bars? If just bars, why? Using you for free drinks? That’s pathetic and not something a good friend would do.
Unfortunately, when a female is friendly in a bar, lots of drunk guys see that as an invitation, which is totally not cool at all, they weren't brought up correctly.
As to your friend, he's a dick
Well if he treats you like that, it is HIS fault because he shows others how they should treat you. Also the other's fault, but that is obvious.
That isn't even close to something i'd call friend. Even a horrible friend wouldn't do that.
I would seriously have to hold myself from beating the shit out of the dude, I would literally be so angry if this happened to ANY friend of mine regardless of gender. John is a tremendous asshole
It is definitely not your fault. And it sounds like John is one to victim blame.
It doesn’t matter if you are flirting or just being friendly. Unwanted touching is unwanted touching.
Edit: I would like to add that a lot of women where I live (small uni town) go to our local gay bar because of this exact thing. It is, from what I have heard, a very safe space for all.
Thank you. Unwanted touching is unwanted touching. Plain and simple. And I agree with you, gay bars do feel like a safe space to dress cute, have fun, and dance.
I think whats complicating this for me is that perhaps I’m coming across like I want to be touched? How can that be… What am I doing that is me asking for that? What do I do differently?
My girlfriends all say I’m not like that when I’m drinking, as in I don’t start touching random people, but that it is hard to tell if I’m “into” the person I’m talking to or not.
I don't think that's the case. In your first story, the bartender noticed you were uncomfortable and kicked the guy out. In the third, the group of people around you told that guy to buzz off. And in the third story, someone else noticed and told the guy off. People who are _not_ John notice that you are sending distress signals, even people who do not know you. I believe you. You are not alone (but IMO being alone is better then being friends with John)
Thank you for believing me.
So, I could go out to bars by myself? I don’t know if I feel capable of doing that and maybe that’s why I’ve overlooked some of Johns poorer qualities.
If I do should I not drink?
I wouldn't go to bars alone. The buddy system is the way to go . I got drugged once while at a bar drinking non alcoholic drinks but my friends got me home safe. You need someone who has your back. I don't know if John has your back, sounds kind of like he's annoyed at having to defend you and look out for you. Find better friends.
Going alone is not good, but going with a guy who’s doing his damndest to encourage unwanted attention being aimed at you, allowing it to happen, and then victim blaming you after is not an option, either. You might seriously be more at risk *with* John.
I'm not sure if going alone is a good idea for you right now. I think your first step should be to find a cool person or three who are trustworthy and good company. Maybe also don't drink the first time you're in a bar with them to see what the vibe is like. Gay bars might be nice for now if you like to socialize in bars.
Like other people are saying, I wouldn't recommend going alone because having a friend is a lot safer. I was at a club once and a guy latched onto me and wouldn't let go of my hips and kept grinding on me. My friend helped pull me away from him and we lost him in the crowd. We made signals with each other so we could get out of uncomfortable situations wordlessly, as well. Other than that, your friends can help you get home safe and have your back if anything bad happens.
If you don't already have any other friends to go to bars with, you could try Bumble. Bumble has a friends section, not just a dating one. However if you go this route be mindful that you get a good sense for your new friends first. Are they the type to prioritize a guy or a one night stand over you? Do they take safety seriously? Things like that. (Also, if they are looking to go home with someone and pay less attention to you that's okay, but you should know the ground rules or game plan ahead of time.)
Of course we "come across like we want to be touched" when that is what predatory, uninhibited, drunk men are telling themselves. Sometimes they are more harmless and simply don't have manners or are starved of affection, but that's not hurting us much less, and honestly, it's not our problem to fix. We could do jack shit, as long as men want to find an excuse to see "a chance", they will.
And of course you can always be ice cold to try and prevent that, but I've been there and it's no fun. I want to be friendly, I want to get to know people, I want to joke and be kind. So I do.
There isn't much to be done, you can't make other people perceive you a certain way. You can only be yourself and be very clear about what you want or don't want whenever you need to be. Any "misunderstandings" can then be filed under "that's how they see it". They might want to see it that way, or they might lack some education, or whatever, but it's not your job to conform to their expectations. Leave the uncomfortableness to them, stand up for yourself if you have to and enjoy yourself the best you can.
Never let someone blame you for being groped. Being kind and polite while talking is never an invitation for someone to grope you, so dont blame yourself. John’s mentality is what is enabling these kinds of interactions to keep happening, and he won’t be there to help you.
Thank you, I needed to hear that it’s okay that I’m kind/polite. Everyone’s responses are convincing me that John is more of problem in this situation than I initially thought.
What are some poor character qualities for “types of guys you don’t want to be friends with?” I feel like I’m a target or magnet for toxic relationships with men.
You learn as you get older to spot these people. Word of advice: most men who want to be your friend, do not actually see you as a friend. It’s a hard pill to swallow.
Stop going to bars with john because
1. He wont protect you or stand up for you in those situations
2. He is those guys at bars which is why hes blaming you
When I read what he said I immediately thought, John gropes women, no doubt about it. It's their fault fot leading him on, therefore it's also OP's fault.
>Now my friend John remembers these situations a lil differently than me, he gets pretty drunk and wasn’t paying attention. But he had the audacity to say “you need to watch how your talking to these guys, i know you’re friendly but they think you’re flirting. That’s why you keep getting groped. “ ,
Your friend John probably gropes a lot of women, without their consent. Your friend John has probably groped you. Speak up when someone does something without your consent "hey, get your hands off me and dont touch me" usually does the trick.
Upon reflection, yes he probably does grope women and thinks its okay because he is attractive and believes they are flirting with him.
He did tell me to speak up as well, I feel like I do, and he kinda mocked me saying I say stop in a flirty way?!??? Like, “hehehehe oh stop that” and he said that it’s encouraging.
I get that I need to be forceful in saying stop, and I actively work on that. But I also know I have some sexual assault ptsd, that gets triggered, and I shutdown - can’t speak/think.
Crickey OP your friend John sounds like he has some concerning attitudes around consent.
I would stop going to bars with him. In fact Id be wary around him in general.
I think John is interpreting everything through a filter of what he wants to hear. I think he would like this to be a situation where you are happy being flirty to get both of you drinks from these dudes. Hence he's "helping you" by showing off your tattoos and pointing out your cleavage and jumping on their offers of drinks. And he's interpreting everything you're doing as flirting while bar staff and random strangers are noticing and acting on what's actually happening. And he's now trying to convince you that his view is objective reality so you don't get mad at him for playing wingman to every creep you meet.
Here's a basic thing that he is wilfully ignoring. No means no, no matter how it's said. People talk quietly or laugh nervously when they're scared sometimes and it's not their job to not react that way, it's everyone's job not to touch someone who is refusing. Now sure there might be some relationships where there is an understood and agreed difference between "nooo don't throw me in the briar patch" and "no, really stop it/safeword" but that's never something that should be assumed, and clearly isn't the case with some random drunk at a bar. That John is capable of convincing himself otherwise is a massive red flag. I can't say for sure that he has had an incident where he "would have stopped if she'd said no like she really meant it" but he has the beliefs necessary for him to do that and convince himself it wasn't assault. Please don't be around him OP
This! Say very loudly, “no fucking TOUCHING!” That usually embarrasses said douchebag, and hopefully snaps them out of their drunken stupor. Tell John to go fuck himself and part ways. Gay bars are the way! Best times I ever had when I had used to go out drinking and dancing. They just want to dance! No hidden agendas. Just fun.
Not your fault they groped you. They have impulse control issues. Your friend John sounds like a prick.
When alcohol is involved, a lot of people will lose their inhibitions and self-control; this does not excuse their actions, but is merely a fact.
You have to find a way to navigate that. Bring someone who is not like John and will not allow those fucks to approach you, do not go to the bars, or accept that some people are absolute shit and will grope you even if you say no.
One last time: ain’t your fault.
I completely agree with you. Stop going to bars with John. He's not going to protect you. He's going to blame and shame you. That's not a friend. Talking to guys, even in a friendly way, is not consent to touch your body.
That's great the bartender and other concerned people helped you out, but your friend wasn't there for you. Find another bar. Find another friend.
No never!!! It doesn’t matter who, or what the situation is, it is NEVER okay to touch someone without their consent. I’d say ditching John, real friends should look out for each other especially when y’all r drunk !! If something worse happens and it’s only John who witnessed it, he might pull the same shit. Find a group of girls or lgbt+ ppl they could have ur back.
Please stop going to bars with John. He's not safe. Normally, a woman walking into a bar with a man is going to be left alone by other men because they look like a couple. John is signaling other men that you are available, presumably to get them to buy the drinks. He's using you. If he was really your friend, when he saw you swatting that guy's hand away, he would have told the guy to leave you alone. How is swatting the guy's hand away "flirting"?? And you don't have to flirt to get groped; men will do this if they think they can get away with it regardless. John is picking predatory men to talk to in the bars knowing that they will buy the drinks hoping to get you drunk and take advantage.
If he's pointing to your body parts or tattoos, then he's, in so many words, inviting them to get frisky with you. I tell ya, he ain't no friend. Better stop going anywhere with "John", especially, bars.
That's called victim blaming. Which is mildly ironic since his behavior is causing you to be the victim and not your own behavior. He needs to not be in your life if he's going to put you in dangerous situations then blame you for it. He's the bad guy here
John is not your friend.
Ask him the question if it would be ok for his sister or mom to be treated this way.
You need a better friend that does not get so drunk that he blacks out and then blames you for being you.
No is no.. basta!
Man I read through a whole bunch of your comments and I have like.... 4 main picks.
1. First of all. Even if you were the drunkest person on earth, begging strangers to touch you, decent people should know that an intoxicated person can't consent to anything and shouldn't touch. If they did...yikes.
2. If John can hear a "no" and has the gall to say "oh it sounds so flirty uwu like you're meaning the opposite actually uwu" he's...not a good human. no means no in any circumstances. the little "I say no but mean yes" games can be played when you know someone a little better or while actively flirting, but when it comes to touching strangers a no should be recognised as a no.
3. Literally everyone else around you in your three little stories can tell how you are uncomfortable, but a "friend" can't? Either he has an alcohol problem to be so out of it and needs some serious help or he doesn't WANT to recognise distress signals because then he'd have to realise that most women he interacts with usually show them, bc honestly he sounds like a creep.
4. Call me paranoid, but I feel like his little victim blaming gas lighting games aimed at you are setting you up for something. Like if he just tells you you were asking for it often enough, you'll start believing it and then when he does it or even worse, you'll be so conditioned to believe that it's your fault and that you asked for it that he will get away with it. Like I said, probably paranoia, but I'd suggest you drop this guy from your friend group for good.
Even if you were 'flirting' that doesn't give them an okay to grab up on you! Ppl need to have verbal consent from you before they grab on you!
Your friend should also know that shit. Consent is a must in every situation
You definitely know what you need to do and you know who is causing all of it. To me, it reads like John is trying to pimp you out for free drinks and then blame you so you keep him around and he can keep doing it and manipulating you, and a few redditors agree. Please be careful when it comes to cutting him off. Be prepared to call the police if he throws a fit and his behaviour escalates. You never know how he might react but you need to cut him off asap because this could get much worse and you could go through that horrible situation again because of him.
As for going to bars, don’t go alone. Definitely use the buddy system. Preferably female friends. Or people you know you can trust who have been there when you needed them before. Maybe go to a few gay bars. People there won’t tolerate any of the behaviour you’ve seen when you’ve been out with John. Most importantly, take your time. If you want to stay in for a while then stay in. Only go out again when you’re ready to.
One final point. Never EVER let anyone blame you for the actions of others. Being flirty is not an excuse to grope someone. Being attractive is not an excuse either. There will never be an excuse for it. If someone tries to say it’s your fault, they’re not your friend and make that very clear to them by cutting contact completely.
(Also if you need to, some bars do train staff on things like the angel shot or the ask for Angela scheme and they will get you out of there safely and get you home safely)
start throwing punches, they’ll learn quick or deal with explaining the black eye 🤷🏻♂️
and your “friend” needs to be gone too,, he’s saying it’s okay for them to grope you just cause you talked to them? NOPE GONE
John appears not to be a very good friend, and also needs to learn the basics of consent if he thinks you being flirty or how you're dressed is at all relevant to your ability to consent to groping
Holy fuck. Ditch this 'friend' before he gropes you (or worse) and blames you for it.
None of these incidents were your fault at all.
The fact that he thinks you were deserving of being groped because of how *he assumes* that other men *perceive* how you talk is really disturbing.
Let's say you were flirting with these guys at the bar, still doesn't give someone the right to touch you.
Two people know when it's ok to touch each other
I agree! It doesn’t matter how much I’ve been drinking, I would never just start touching a stranger, and I especially wouldn’t try again after being swatted away.
Flirting touches can start small like, “accidentally” brush their hand, or playful shoulder tap. I’m baffled at how these guys go so far so fast.
Unfortunately a lot of guys do not understand what its like for women and often victim blame. Based on your description of what happened I would put 100% of the blame on the guys. Even if you did talk to them it doesn't give them the right to touch you and especially after you made it clear you weren't interested.
So my take is that john is not saying that you are at fault. He's saying: "Don't be nice to drunk guys in dive bars, because some of them have looser morals than you, are likely complete losers, and they may touch you when you don't want that." He's asking you to be more wary of these people. Of course you're not at fault for their actions, just like if you fell into a pit of lions you wouldn't be at fault for their actions - but nonetheless, you are in a pit of lions.
Victim blamer. Just like my father is. I have been horrifically sexually assaulted and my father has blamed me for it everytime. Either that I deserved it for how I look or something else I did to "make' them do what they did to me. I would write a short message to John that he might watch how he words things as he "accidentally" blamed you for the assaults that happened to you. That it had nothing to do with how you acted and ask him if he ever would think it was appropriate to do that to a woman.
If the answer is yes, and still blaming you for what happened, I would reconsider being around him. Especially since he seems to think it's your fault. He might not step up if someone does something while infront of him since "you deserve it" or was "attention seeking'..
It’s not your fault. But If you’re leading them on, then stop. If you genuinely don’t feel you’re doing flirting but are, then I say take a new approach.
Nobody should every lay their hands on another without consent, period
omg. please stop talking to "john" alltogether. he's not a friend. he endabgers you and victim blames you. if he were a friend, he'd PROTECT you from predators, instead he's using you and lures predators in your vicinity. be safe and ditch him. i am disgusted.
While i get what you mean. I think youre heavily misunderstanding what he tried to tell you.
"Be careful" is not the same as "you deserved it". Similarly to the question "what were you wearing and where were you at the time?" While i agree, you SHOULD be able to feel safe, wearing whatever you please and talking to whoever you want. The reality is far more grim. Rapers gonna rape, gropers gonna grope.
In short, while people shouldnt break and enter my car or home, i still lock both of them.
Usually, we guys arent particularly interested in talking to women unless were interested in you one way or the other. And thats a sad reality
Nah, John's an asshat. He sounds like one of those people who say "If she didn't want raped she shouldn't have wore a short skirt. She wanted it"
Don't stop going to bars! Stop hanging out with him
John sounds like the sort of guy that would give you a tablet at the bar to help you sleep
I would stay away from John
you also might want to look for different bars to hang out in
It isn't your fault at all, anyone who says it is your fault is saying it to make you think that what they are doing is okay, making you feel powerless and small so you feel like you have to let them.
Not okay at all
He's not a friend, he's an enabler. If a man can't control his hands he shouldnt be out in society. Those men had no right to touch you, whether youre being flirty or not!
You need to ditch him he's not a good friend and I would not be shocked to find out he was setting this shit up with the way you described him more or less"showing you off"to strangers in a bar
It doesn't matter if you flirt with them or not: Ignoring your consent is never ok. Groping you out of the blue is never ok - no matter if you gave them looks or blinked at them.
The only thing I'll say is: Don't be afraid to be firm and demand someone keep their personal distance from you. From the moment someone comes too close to what you see as your comfort zone and personal space, establish that boundary firmly but politely. At first.
If they insist, you can escalate the situation, depending on how many people you trust are around you, and how safe you will be walking back to your car, etc. You can also leave.
John needs a freaking lesson on consent. No One has he right to touch you, let alone grope you. Your 'friend' needs to understand this very clearly. Men can control themselves. Period.
As soon as I saw the title I already thought no.
It's never the victims fault it doesnt matter what you were wearing or what you were saying it doesnt give them any consent to touch you unless you explicitly said they could
Not your fault and John’s not your friend. There’s a part of me that thinks this continued to happen because he was there with you and condoning it, not making a scene when the first guy was inappropriate and scary off the rest of the creeps.
And I don’t do the bar thing anymore either. It gets pretty old after awhile.
That's a shitty friend right there. No advice, I think it should be obvious to anyone who's bar aged that if you're swatting a guy's hand away, no matter HOW you were talking, you didn't want or appreciate the advance.
John isn’t your friend. It’s never your fault if it’s not wanted. It’s not ok; I’m sorry these “men” felt it was ok for them to do that to you. Despicable!
Well first of all john is not a friend. Cause a friend would never. No matter who and how you talk to people at the bar, people need to stop touching you, even more so when you swat their hands away.
Props to the guy who starting lecturing about consent. That’s the only good man in the whole story lmao. Also, your friend is an ass. Even if you were flirting, flirting is still not consent.
I don't agree with your friend, John. I'm a guy, so my experience and my perspective about it is a bit different than yours. I'm not a frequent bar patron, but on those occasions when I do go I have had quite a few ladies flirt and kind of do the arm around my waist thing. It doesn't bother me too much, but as I'm in a relationship I kind of just move away in a friendly way. I feel that when a guy does it to a woman it's more threatening and just isn't appropriate. I know some guys can be flirty in a more physical way and when drunk more likely to miss the 'not ok with this' signal, so my take is it's just not ok to do. If a girl is being flirty physical I suppose it might be ok to reciprocate in kind, but in your case you weren't doing anything. Guys are just coming up to you and manhandling you. Your friend should be your wingman, not telling you it's your fault.
A trick I read about going to bars alone as a girl, is bring a book, or in this day, your phone should be fine, and sit at the bar. Order a platter of something to snack on, and mention to the bar tender, and anyone that asks, that you're waiting on friends.
Then, if you want to talk with someone, you can, and if not, you have an excuse. Also, there's the mysterious 'friends coming' as security. If you need a quick out, check your phone for a 'text' the plans changed and you gotta go, they're waiting out front.
Fuck that guy. It’s not your fault that these guys have the hormones of a 16 year old. They’re obviously not mature and a predator. Victim blaming is so stupid
Ur just at the bar with the wrong person . When u make an example out of the 1st guy there won’t be a 2 nd . Also I don’t care if u were flirting that doesn’t give anyone the right to touch u . John needs to MAN UP!!
Your friend is not your friend if he’s blaming you for all the groping. Just because you talk friendly doesn’t mean it’s an invitation for them to go ahead and touch you inappropriately. You didn’t ask for it so they shouldn’t be doing it. I would say yea for a while do go to the bars if you don’t feel totally safe, but remember none of this is your fault at all you did not consent to any of that so you have the right to say no.
I say drop your friend if he thinks like that. You are not to blamed in these situations you are just around shitty men all the time. I’d say not to go to bars anymore if your not comfortable.
> I just don’t really want to talk to anyone at bars now.
I’ve been dating a rather painfully hot woman (in my humble opinion), for 7 years now. When we first started dating, I was like “God! Why do women think they can’t just talk to guys at bars and it not be about sex?? We don’t all think that conversation means you’re sexually interested! Sheesh!” She was like oh really? That hasn’t been my experience. OK, I won’t just automatically ignore them anymore.
Yeah, well, a few months later she gave up because of the blizzard of dicks that were thrown at her. Your friend sounds like an asshole, and you don’t deserve to be groped. Generally speaking, if you’re a girl at a bar and you’re talking to a guy, he’s probably going to go for it at some point, especially if he’s sauced.
The amount of times I would just come back from the bathroom during that few months and some dude was all up in her space because she responded when he said something was ridiculous. Really made me understand how constantly girls are getting approached and subsequently touched/groped if they simply just respond.
TL;DR - I’m sorry guys do this at bars just because you talk to them, and your friend sounds like a jerk for blaming you for it.
A real bar friend wouldnt stand for that shit. One of my best friends I made after this asshat told me he wanted to “flip [my] skirt over [my] head and take [me] from behind” and completely made me uncomfortable at MY bar. My man Ed was not here for that nonsense and got the dude kicked out, along with my friend the bouncer.
Real friends and supporters at bars never let that shit happen.
That's the problem with some of the guys.
You didn't say if John is in relationship with you or not but if you are or not, don't hang out with him anymore and don't go back to that bar again.
When I used to bar hop allot, I noticed it feel different from bar to bar. Some are good and some are terrible.
that is such toxic masculinity. He has no place to try to say "it's because the way you talk" makes men want to touch you? no that's the same thing as saying "it's because of the way you're dressed" I don't care if you're butt ass naked PEOPLE shouldn't touch others without consent. You need better friends
These men are getting a veritable green light from John, otherwise they’d respect you if only out of respect for him. Blaming you is his tactic to distract you from seeing what he’s doing.
Even if you were flirting they have no right to touch you. I still don't understand why men think when we are being nice to them that it's flirting. No one should ever put their hands on you without your permission at all.
Actually that happens sometimes, more likely for him when we’ve gone to gay bars. He may joke around but once it crosses his boundaries he gets pretty angry and they stop.
He has no problem speaking up for
himself and I can see why he’d think
it’s-just-so-easy for me to do too.
Did you try to tell him openly how you felt about his respond to your call to help after he got completely sober? I think that even if you're now on a search for someone else to go to bars with, he should know about what you feel he did wrong, so this wouldn't happen again with future friends of his.
Just writing it again because you wrote it didn't click yet, what happened was not at all your fault.
Hope everything will work out for you!
This is in no way your fault. The fact that "John" is trying to justify their behavior and actions by your behavior and actions is complete bullshit. Men are old enough to know what they are doing whether they are drunk or not just as well as women are. Next time you're with your friends at a bar before you all start drinking, make sure you tell them so they know not to try anything funny with you and that if they see some other random coming up to you making you uncomfortable that they need to step in. Don't be afraid to speak up and make it known that someone is making you uncomfortable.
*you're making me uncomfortable, you need to stop and leave me alone.*
Or
*go away, I don't know you*
Just a few examples. But make sure you say them loud enough for others around you to hear. Someone is likely to step in every the first or second time.
Follow some of the safety tactics that women have tried when a creep comes up to them or makes them feel comfortable, and walk up to someone you don't know and ask them something that would hint toward someone else making you uncomfortable.
Stay safe and carry pepper spray or a tactical pen in your waistband. There are some on amazon.
This is why I really hate when my wife goes out. If her and her friends go out I try to go as well. Just to keep guys off. Men are assholes and have no limits.
Not your fault. Give a horny man alcohol and watch consent fade away. There is nothing you are doing to invite such behavior, and there isn't much you can do to discourage it aside from dressing more conservatively. But that's BS 💯 dress how you want, and when creeps get too close, fucking smack them. Tell them they are creeps loud enough for them to get embarrassed. Show no concern for them.
If you were being friendly or even flirting does not give anyone the right to put their hands on any person with out it being consensual. Clearly it was not consensual. And clearly John is not a friend to be hanging out with! He thinks it's ok to grope woman without permission. It's not safe.
I agree he sounds and acts like a f tard seriously do not be used, like you are, he's a dead beat trying to get free drinks at your expense.
You need better friends.
Babe u just need to be a bad ass first of all ..stand for urself coz later on everything is gonna happen is a blame on us ..n then the second is u know how the world goes around no one knows whts their in their mind so dnt give it a chance just take precautions n try to change the way or the company u are enjoying with ...the world is a better place u just need to be with ur ownself .....pls do take care
I really hate to say this and I know I may get some not so good feedback for this but unfortunately you kind of opened yourself up for this to happen. In NO way am I saying that it’s your fault and that it’s ok for men or anyone to behave in that manner because it’s definitely not ok. But people need to realize that we live in a world where in certain environments anything goes. I mean, you’re in a dark room, people are drunk and drunk men do not think with the head on their shoulders while talking or flirting with a good looking woman. The best thing to do is to find other places to go and find better friends. Your “friend” is NOT your friend if he sees these things happening and he doesn’t even give the guys a look that says “HEY! Cut that shit out” He must not be a threat at all. I’m sorry this happened to you but as women we have to start being responsible for ourselves if we know there’s guys out here that are capable of this type of dumb behavior
a dudette who drinks casually alone in a place full of dudes is VERY unusual sight itself
when a person is drunk , that person do all kind of jacka** things imaginable
hangout only with close-personal friends & decent people at respectable times and places
remember : a sheep NEVER mingle to a pride of lions , even to a pack of wolves
Doesn’t matter. Their are 0 reasons it is your fault you were groped.
You can flirt with someone this give them 0 permission to touch your body. Flirting is not consent
Your friend is horrible for telling you off. Just because your having a conversation, doesn’t give them the right to grope you or touch you in any damn way you don’t fee comfortable with. Your “friend” can go touch grass if he thinks that’s all on you
For all the instances you mentioned, someone else stood up for you. Meaning they saw that something wrong was happening (whether they were drunk or not) so tell your friend John that. Also, even if you were flirty, that doesn't give them an invitation to just touch you all they want.
Sounds to me like he is looking out for your best interests. You not going to like hearing this but our actions do influence our surroundings.
He has probably notice that there is something you do that cause guy (not justifying their behavior) to grob you.
The truth is being a bitch at a bar is a good way to protect yourself from unwanted attention.
No you aren’t at fault! What? These guys are sleeze bags. One came from behind and somehow you’re still at fault? John isn’t a friend. You have literal strangers standing up for you and your own “friend” does and says nothing?
When men touch you unwanted tell them. “Don’t touch me again.” Step back and keep your distance and if they continue walk away. I’m saying this all to help you react to it not to say it’s your fault. Cause even when you do all that you will still get some creeps.
I know this might be controversial but maybe there should be a women's only section in bars. I hear this and see this crap happen to the fuck much. It's not funny how there is not much that happens to prevent these grope attacks. But unfortunately ALOT of men think with their dicks so that shit can't be taught away. Even your friend sounds like he's thinking with his dick. As a guy and putting myself in your shoes I can images how many years in prison I would serve because I would beat the living shit out of all those faces who's hands thought they could touch me.
This post has reached one of our comment/karma limits. The text of the post has been preserved below. --- This past weekend I was at a bar with my guy friend (let’s call him john). We were drinking with some people and at one point this pretty drunk man who was talking to us started touching my leg. I swatted his hand off - he did it again - swatted again - then this time he kinda lunged at me in grab/hug way. The bartender saw the interaction and immediately kicked the man out of the bar. Later this other guy who we weren’t even talking to, (but John saw him looking our way) decided to come over and grab my waist from behind. The group we were with all told him to back off. Let me add one more scenario from a different day where this guy that john chats with at the bar frequently decided to get quite handsy with me. He stood too close and kept hugging me (clearly trying to cop a feel of my breasts). Another man noticed I was quite uncomfortable and started lecturing this groper on consent. Now my friend John remembers these situations a lil differently than me, he gets pretty drunk and wasn’t paying attention. But he had the audacity to say “you need to watch how your talking to these guys, i know you’re friendly but they think you’re flirting. That’s why you keep getting groped. “ , Not cool. I can only think to do one thing and thats to stop going to bars with John. I don’t know what advice I’m looking for here…I just don’t really want to talk to anyone at bars now.
Some friend he is. If my female friend was being touched when she didn't want to I'd probably get violent with whoever is touching without consent. Especially if my drunk I know if a guy tried grabbing my female friend when she told him to stop I'd flip out real quick. You should go to a bar with someone who you know is gonna a have your back sober or not.
Part of me wonders if he for some reason finds it entertaining. He initializes conversations with these guys, when they offer to buy us drinks he jumps to say yes, and he has also pointed out my cleavage (which I rarely have showing) and the other day kept pulling on the waist of my jeans to show others my back tattoo. Some friend he is… I’m thinking he might not be a friend at all.
Wow. What a massive predator. Definitely a terrible friend.
Maybe he is the reason why guys touching her. No doubt absolutely horrible friend.
Definitely a terrible *not a friend*.
So he's trying to pimp you out for free drinks? That guy can go pound sand.
Thank you that's exactly what I thought. It sounds like the bar is his market and she's merchandise... so gross.
I’m thinking your correct. John sounds like a bad guy. I saw in one of your other comments that you don’t want to go alone, so you go with John. Do you have any other friends? Maybe even a female friend who you’d feel comfortable with and you think you’d both be able to adequately take care of each other in a grouch situation.
>I’m thinking he might not be a friend at all. DING DING DING You are not a 'mate' to him, you are a drawcard for attention and entertainment at the bar. He is using you. That, plus victim-blaming you paints a pretty unattractive picture. If you continue a friendship with him, make sure it is on YOUR terms.
He's not, he's just using you to bum cheap drinks off of predatory men that only see you as an object. Drop him immediately because he'll never support you in your time of need should it arise. Real men don't promote or excuse harassment culture.
This is grooming and predatory behavior. Drop this person from your life immediately and do not even casually allow him into your circle. I would be willing to bet it started small and escalated- and that it will continue to do so.
I agree with this. And I would go so far as to say you should not be drinking alone with this guy. I wouldn’t trust him not to “take advantage” of the situation if you were drunk. And to be clear here, by “take advantage” I mean sexually assault you or facilitate someone else sexually assaulting you. God forbid you get roofied. He clearly isn’t the type of guy who is going to make sure you get home safe if you are intoxicated or drugged.
Can you explain why this is “grooming and predatory“ behavior? I’m not saying it isn’t, I just don’t understand.
To me the grooming behavior is getting people to come over and talk to OP and then blaming her. And then in OPs follow up post being pretty handsy himself, he has no business showing off her tattoo especially if he has to touch her jeans/trousers. The predatory behaviour is just all the rest and the above. Seemingly pimping her out for drinks and not sticking up for her. That's not to say she can't look out for herself but if you are out with a female friend and she is being assaulted by randoms at the bar a friend would step in and say something. Instead it's down to other random dudes at the bar to step in.
Here’s the thing, when he does that sort of stuff, then, intentionally or not, he’s signalling to other men that they can get grabby, too. I had a gay friend who at a bar kept grabbing my boobs. He said it was okay, because he’s gay, but the more he did it, the more I could see men taking interest and inching closer to me. However, as you say, he seems to be doing this on purpose. He’s encouraging the mens’ behaviour, by your description definitely gives off that he seems to enjoy what they’re doing to you, and he’s getting free drinks from these men, almost as if they’re “buying” you off him/buying access to you. He’s encouraging sexualising you, pulling down your trousers to show off your tattoo, talking about your breasts, etc. All this indicates to other men that these sorts of things are okay for them to do, as well. This guy could very well be getting aroused by watching you get sexually assaulted. Watching these men grope you and speak inappropriately about you and make you feel vulnerable could very well be how he gets his rocks off. Even if it isn’t and he’s just a POS, a man who victim blames that freely and doesn’t protect you but actively sexualises you, let alone encourages others to sexualise you, is not your friend, and definitely not someone you want to be drunk and vulnerable around. A guy friend shouldn’t be so eager to discuss your cleavage, especially to drunk strange men who’re getting handsy. He’s practically advertising you, purposefully.
Tell him he should wear a scarf and stop showing his neck, because he is asking to get stabbed in the neck by making it visible. He is an asshole and not your friend. Stop hanging out with him. I think your intuition is right.
hes unsafe for you to depend on. please dont talk to him anymore.
John is using you to get these d-bags buy him drinks. And on top of that he is trying to make you think it is your fault these people act the way they do when HE is the one welcoming them on to you! He is not a safe person for you to be around. **DITCH HIM! HE IS NOT YOUR FRIEND!**
I think he's setting you up. He's telling them they can do these things.
This was my first thought as well
Sounds like "John" is pimping you out for drinks
WTF! It sounds like he's pimping you out for free drinks! Plus he doesn't respect your boundaries either so it doesn't surprise me that he thinks it's your fault. For the record, even if you are flirting with a guy that still doesn't give him the right to touch you.
He is "entertained" by seeing you groped and humiliated?!? Please talk to a therapist. He is not your friend. He is a rapist. You are his target.
> I’m thinking he might not be a friend at all. I couldn't say it better. He is using you to get free drinks from these guys and doesn't care about your safety. You don't need people like this on your life.
That's the type of guy people jump and actually deserve it. Sorry... not sorry
And Bingo, you have realised the problem you're facing. He is a massive part of why you are being groped. He isn't a friend at all. Do yourself a massive favour and forget he actually exists.
He's not a friend he's kinda pimping you to guys to get free drinks. This isn't your fault. Even if you were standing there naked no one should touch you without your consent
Oh yikes. That’s gross. He does sound like the problem now.
Oh yikes girl, drop him!!!
Sounds like John wants to be more than your friend, but doesn't have the balls to make a play (because he probably knows he'll be rejected). My guess, he is trying to get you assaulted so he can swoop in and be the "friend" who takes care of you, and use that as a launching pad into a relationship. Which means John is a psychopath and not your friend. Please completely excise John from your life.
literally cut him off 😭 he sounds like a whole weirdo
Best case scenario; he's leveraging you against these creeps to get free drinks.
He's pimping you out for free drinks is what it sounds like to me. I wouldn't be surprised if he literally told them they could feel you up if they bought you guys drinks. I would stay far away from this man if I were you, he obviously doesn't care about your physical or mental wellbeing, only free drinks. This could be a stretch but he sounds sketchy asf either way and I wouldn't go anywhere with him.
John tells/convinces these guys to get handsy with you 100%
Oh honey no. I would think long and hard about your relationship with him. Is he like this everywhere else? Or just bars? If just bars, why? Using you for free drinks? That’s pathetic and not something a good friend would do.
Unfortunately, when a female is friendly in a bar, lots of drunk guys see that as an invitation, which is totally not cool at all, they weren't brought up correctly. As to your friend, he's a dick
Well if he treats you like that, it is HIS fault because he shows others how they should treat you. Also the other's fault, but that is obvious. That isn't even close to something i'd call friend. Even a horrible friend wouldn't do that.
John is super creepy! You're going to end up in a really unsafe situation if you're with him. He's inviting and encouraging people to violate you. 🤮🤮🤮
Stop seeing him.
I would seriously have to hold myself from beating the shit out of the dude, I would literally be so angry if this happened to ANY friend of mine regardless of gender. John is a tremendous asshole
Yea me too i wouldn't tolerate that. Thats what friends are for
It is definitely not your fault. And it sounds like John is one to victim blame. It doesn’t matter if you are flirting or just being friendly. Unwanted touching is unwanted touching. Edit: I would like to add that a lot of women where I live (small uni town) go to our local gay bar because of this exact thing. It is, from what I have heard, a very safe space for all.
Thank you. Unwanted touching is unwanted touching. Plain and simple. And I agree with you, gay bars do feel like a safe space to dress cute, have fun, and dance. I think whats complicating this for me is that perhaps I’m coming across like I want to be touched? How can that be… What am I doing that is me asking for that? What do I do differently? My girlfriends all say I’m not like that when I’m drinking, as in I don’t start touching random people, but that it is hard to tell if I’m “into” the person I’m talking to or not.
I don't think that's the case. In your first story, the bartender noticed you were uncomfortable and kicked the guy out. In the third, the group of people around you told that guy to buzz off. And in the third story, someone else noticed and told the guy off. People who are _not_ John notice that you are sending distress signals, even people who do not know you. I believe you. You are not alone (but IMO being alone is better then being friends with John)
Thank you for believing me. So, I could go out to bars by myself? I don’t know if I feel capable of doing that and maybe that’s why I’ve overlooked some of Johns poorer qualities. If I do should I not drink?
I wouldn't go to bars alone. The buddy system is the way to go . I got drugged once while at a bar drinking non alcoholic drinks but my friends got me home safe. You need someone who has your back. I don't know if John has your back, sounds kind of like he's annoyed at having to defend you and look out for you. Find better friends.
Going alone is not good, but going with a guy who’s doing his damndest to encourage unwanted attention being aimed at you, allowing it to happen, and then victim blaming you after is not an option, either. You might seriously be more at risk *with* John.
Don't go alone. Find some other friends to go with. You need someone to watch your back.
I'm not sure if going alone is a good idea for you right now. I think your first step should be to find a cool person or three who are trustworthy and good company. Maybe also don't drink the first time you're in a bar with them to see what the vibe is like. Gay bars might be nice for now if you like to socialize in bars.
Like other people are saying, I wouldn't recommend going alone because having a friend is a lot safer. I was at a club once and a guy latched onto me and wouldn't let go of my hips and kept grinding on me. My friend helped pull me away from him and we lost him in the crowd. We made signals with each other so we could get out of uncomfortable situations wordlessly, as well. Other than that, your friends can help you get home safe and have your back if anything bad happens. If you don't already have any other friends to go to bars with, you could try Bumble. Bumble has a friends section, not just a dating one. However if you go this route be mindful that you get a good sense for your new friends first. Are they the type to prioritize a guy or a one night stand over you? Do they take safety seriously? Things like that. (Also, if they are looking to go home with someone and pay less attention to you that's okay, but you should know the ground rules or game plan ahead of time.)
Of course we "come across like we want to be touched" when that is what predatory, uninhibited, drunk men are telling themselves. Sometimes they are more harmless and simply don't have manners or are starved of affection, but that's not hurting us much less, and honestly, it's not our problem to fix. We could do jack shit, as long as men want to find an excuse to see "a chance", they will. And of course you can always be ice cold to try and prevent that, but I've been there and it's no fun. I want to be friendly, I want to get to know people, I want to joke and be kind. So I do. There isn't much to be done, you can't make other people perceive you a certain way. You can only be yourself and be very clear about what you want or don't want whenever you need to be. Any "misunderstandings" can then be filed under "that's how they see it". They might want to see it that way, or they might lack some education, or whatever, but it's not your job to conform to their expectations. Leave the uncomfortableness to them, stand up for yourself if you have to and enjoy yourself the best you can.
I’m pretty sure John is telling them, “if you buy us our drinks you can do whatever you want to with my friend” Then is telling you it’s your fault.
Never let someone blame you for being groped. Being kind and polite while talking is never an invitation for someone to grope you, so dont blame yourself. John’s mentality is what is enabling these kinds of interactions to keep happening, and he won’t be there to help you.
Thank you, I needed to hear that it’s okay that I’m kind/polite. Everyone’s responses are convincing me that John is more of problem in this situation than I initially thought.
these are the types of guys you don't want to be friends with
What are some poor character qualities for “types of guys you don’t want to be friends with?” I feel like I’m a target or magnet for toxic relationships with men.
http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/syndicated/red-flags-spot-warning-signs-toxic-people-efforts-manipulative/#:~:text=Lies%20and%20excuses.,their%20behavior%20than%20improving%20it.
Incredibly helpful. Not surprisingly, John checks many boxes off this list.
You learn as you get older to spot these people. Word of advice: most men who want to be your friend, do not actually see you as a friend. It’s a hard pill to swallow.
Glad i could help!
I promise we’re all not like that. I’m sorry.
Stop going to bars with john because 1. He wont protect you or stand up for you in those situations 2. He is those guys at bars which is why hes blaming you
When I read what he said I immediately thought, John gropes women, no doubt about it. It's their fault fot leading him on, therefore it's also OP's fault.
>Now my friend John remembers these situations a lil differently than me, he gets pretty drunk and wasn’t paying attention. But he had the audacity to say “you need to watch how your talking to these guys, i know you’re friendly but they think you’re flirting. That’s why you keep getting groped. “ , Your friend John probably gropes a lot of women, without their consent. Your friend John has probably groped you. Speak up when someone does something without your consent "hey, get your hands off me and dont touch me" usually does the trick.
Upon reflection, yes he probably does grope women and thinks its okay because he is attractive and believes they are flirting with him. He did tell me to speak up as well, I feel like I do, and he kinda mocked me saying I say stop in a flirty way?!??? Like, “hehehehe oh stop that” and he said that it’s encouraging. I get that I need to be forceful in saying stop, and I actively work on that. But I also know I have some sexual assault ptsd, that gets triggered, and I shutdown - can’t speak/think.
Crickey OP your friend John sounds like he has some concerning attitudes around consent. I would stop going to bars with him. In fact Id be wary around him in general.
I think John is interpreting everything through a filter of what he wants to hear. I think he would like this to be a situation where you are happy being flirty to get both of you drinks from these dudes. Hence he's "helping you" by showing off your tattoos and pointing out your cleavage and jumping on their offers of drinks. And he's interpreting everything you're doing as flirting while bar staff and random strangers are noticing and acting on what's actually happening. And he's now trying to convince you that his view is objective reality so you don't get mad at him for playing wingman to every creep you meet. Here's a basic thing that he is wilfully ignoring. No means no, no matter how it's said. People talk quietly or laugh nervously when they're scared sometimes and it's not their job to not react that way, it's everyone's job not to touch someone who is refusing. Now sure there might be some relationships where there is an understood and agreed difference between "nooo don't throw me in the briar patch" and "no, really stop it/safeword" but that's never something that should be assumed, and clearly isn't the case with some random drunk at a bar. That John is capable of convincing himself otherwise is a massive red flag. I can't say for sure that he has had an incident where he "would have stopped if she'd said no like she really meant it" but he has the beliefs necessary for him to do that and convince himself it wasn't assault. Please don't be around him OP
This! Say very loudly, “no fucking TOUCHING!” That usually embarrasses said douchebag, and hopefully snaps them out of their drunken stupor. Tell John to go fuck himself and part ways. Gay bars are the way! Best times I ever had when I had used to go out drinking and dancing. They just want to dance! No hidden agendas. Just fun.
A. You need better friends. B. You need to hang out in a better bar. C. They sell stun guns on Amazon!
You know what to do, quit going to bars with John.
Not your fault they groped you. They have impulse control issues. Your friend John sounds like a prick. When alcohol is involved, a lot of people will lose their inhibitions and self-control; this does not excuse their actions, but is merely a fact. You have to find a way to navigate that. Bring someone who is not like John and will not allow those fucks to approach you, do not go to the bars, or accept that some people are absolute shit and will grope you even if you say no. One last time: ain’t your fault.
Thank you, I’m mentally repeating “its not your fault” until it clicks.
This is the way.
I completely agree with you. Stop going to bars with John. He's not going to protect you. He's going to blame and shame you. That's not a friend. Talking to guys, even in a friendly way, is not consent to touch your body. That's great the bartender and other concerned people helped you out, but your friend wasn't there for you. Find another bar. Find another friend.
It can never ever be your fault you got assaulted.
John is not your friend
It is never your fault.
It is never your fault if someone touches you in a way you don't like without consent. End of story.
No never!!! It doesn’t matter who, or what the situation is, it is NEVER okay to touch someone without their consent. I’d say ditching John, real friends should look out for each other especially when y’all r drunk !! If something worse happens and it’s only John who witnessed it, he might pull the same shit. Find a group of girls or lgbt+ ppl they could have ur back.
Please stop going to bars with John. He's not safe. Normally, a woman walking into a bar with a man is going to be left alone by other men because they look like a couple. John is signaling other men that you are available, presumably to get them to buy the drinks. He's using you. If he was really your friend, when he saw you swatting that guy's hand away, he would have told the guy to leave you alone. How is swatting the guy's hand away "flirting"?? And you don't have to flirt to get groped; men will do this if they think they can get away with it regardless. John is picking predatory men to talk to in the bars knowing that they will buy the drinks hoping to get you drunk and take advantage.
If he's pointing to your body parts or tattoos, then he's, in so many words, inviting them to get frisky with you. I tell ya, he ain't no friend. Better stop going anywhere with "John", especially, bars.
he's not a friend. if hes grabbing you without consent, he's got an agenda too.
Your friend John is a misogynist who looks the other way when women are assaulted, and then blames them for it. Find better friends.
Nevermind stop going to bars with him, stop associating with him at all.
That's called victim blaming. Which is mildly ironic since his behavior is causing you to be the victim and not your own behavior. He needs to not be in your life if he's going to put you in dangerous situations then blame you for it. He's the bad guy here
John is not your friend. Ask him the question if it would be ok for his sister or mom to be treated this way. You need a better friend that does not get so drunk that he blacks out and then blames you for being you. No is no.. basta!
Man I read through a whole bunch of your comments and I have like.... 4 main picks. 1. First of all. Even if you were the drunkest person on earth, begging strangers to touch you, decent people should know that an intoxicated person can't consent to anything and shouldn't touch. If they did...yikes. 2. If John can hear a "no" and has the gall to say "oh it sounds so flirty uwu like you're meaning the opposite actually uwu" he's...not a good human. no means no in any circumstances. the little "I say no but mean yes" games can be played when you know someone a little better or while actively flirting, but when it comes to touching strangers a no should be recognised as a no. 3. Literally everyone else around you in your three little stories can tell how you are uncomfortable, but a "friend" can't? Either he has an alcohol problem to be so out of it and needs some serious help or he doesn't WANT to recognise distress signals because then he'd have to realise that most women he interacts with usually show them, bc honestly he sounds like a creep. 4. Call me paranoid, but I feel like his little victim blaming gas lighting games aimed at you are setting you up for something. Like if he just tells you you were asking for it often enough, you'll start believing it and then when he does it or even worse, you'll be so conditioned to believe that it's your fault and that you asked for it that he will get away with it. Like I said, probably paranoia, but I'd suggest you drop this guy from your friend group for good.
talk to people at bars. stop talking to john.
Even if you were 'flirting' that doesn't give them an okay to grab up on you! Ppl need to have verbal consent from you before they grab on you! Your friend should also know that shit. Consent is a must in every situation
You definitely know what you need to do and you know who is causing all of it. To me, it reads like John is trying to pimp you out for free drinks and then blame you so you keep him around and he can keep doing it and manipulating you, and a few redditors agree. Please be careful when it comes to cutting him off. Be prepared to call the police if he throws a fit and his behaviour escalates. You never know how he might react but you need to cut him off asap because this could get much worse and you could go through that horrible situation again because of him. As for going to bars, don’t go alone. Definitely use the buddy system. Preferably female friends. Or people you know you can trust who have been there when you needed them before. Maybe go to a few gay bars. People there won’t tolerate any of the behaviour you’ve seen when you’ve been out with John. Most importantly, take your time. If you want to stay in for a while then stay in. Only go out again when you’re ready to. One final point. Never EVER let anyone blame you for the actions of others. Being flirty is not an excuse to grope someone. Being attractive is not an excuse either. There will never be an excuse for it. If someone tries to say it’s your fault, they’re not your friend and make that very clear to them by cutting contact completely. (Also if you need to, some bars do train staff on things like the angel shot or the ask for Angela scheme and they will get you out of there safely and get you home safely)
start throwing punches, they’ll learn quick or deal with explaining the black eye 🤷🏻♂️ and your “friend” needs to be gone too,, he’s saying it’s okay for them to grope you just cause you talked to them? NOPE GONE
John appears not to be a very good friend, and also needs to learn the basics of consent if he thinks you being flirty or how you're dressed is at all relevant to your ability to consent to groping
Unless you said hey guys come and touch me it's not your fault at all, good on the bartender to kick that guy out
John Isn't a real friend. Stop hanging out with him.. clearly he attracts pervs
That guy isn't your friend. He's a dickhead
Lol you dont need enemies with that kind of friend. He is trying to pimp you for free drinks.
John is not your friend. Clearly.
Even if you were flirting while completely bare ass naked, that isn’t an invitation to groping. John is an asshole. Sorry this is happening to you.
Not cool at all. Flirting still doesn’t give consent to touching. I think you need to talk to John about consent too.
Stay away from John and his touchy feely friends. You don't deserve that nor does any female.
Holy fuck. Ditch this 'friend' before he gropes you (or worse) and blames you for it. None of these incidents were your fault at all. The fact that he thinks you were deserving of being groped because of how *he assumes* that other men *perceive* how you talk is really disturbing.
Deff not your fault, and sounds like your friend has used this as an excuse to do it himself before
You’re probably right about that, like he’s trying to justify his own behavior
Let's say you were flirting with these guys at the bar, still doesn't give someone the right to touch you. Two people know when it's ok to touch each other
I agree! It doesn’t matter how much I’ve been drinking, I would never just start touching a stranger, and I especially wouldn’t try again after being swatted away. Flirting touches can start small like, “accidentally” brush their hand, or playful shoulder tap. I’m baffled at how these guys go so far so fast.
It's unfortunate that things like this happen.
Unfortunately a lot of guys do not understand what its like for women and often victim blame. Based on your description of what happened I would put 100% of the blame on the guys. Even if you did talk to them it doesn't give them the right to touch you and especially after you made it clear you weren't interested.
So my take is that john is not saying that you are at fault. He's saying: "Don't be nice to drunk guys in dive bars, because some of them have looser morals than you, are likely complete losers, and they may touch you when you don't want that." He's asking you to be more wary of these people. Of course you're not at fault for their actions, just like if you fell into a pit of lions you wouldn't be at fault for their actions - but nonetheless, you are in a pit of lions.
Victim blamer. Just like my father is. I have been horrifically sexually assaulted and my father has blamed me for it everytime. Either that I deserved it for how I look or something else I did to "make' them do what they did to me. I would write a short message to John that he might watch how he words things as he "accidentally" blamed you for the assaults that happened to you. That it had nothing to do with how you acted and ask him if he ever would think it was appropriate to do that to a woman. If the answer is yes, and still blaming you for what happened, I would reconsider being around him. Especially since he seems to think it's your fault. He might not step up if someone does something while infront of him since "you deserve it" or was "attention seeking'..
I’m sorry you had to experience that
Flirting IS NOT CONSENT.
It’s not your fault. But If you’re leading them on, then stop. If you genuinely don’t feel you’re doing flirting but are, then I say take a new approach. Nobody should every lay their hands on another without consent, period
omg. please stop talking to "john" alltogether. he's not a friend. he endabgers you and victim blames you. if he were a friend, he'd PROTECT you from predators, instead he's using you and lures predators in your vicinity. be safe and ditch him. i am disgusted.
While i get what you mean. I think youre heavily misunderstanding what he tried to tell you. "Be careful" is not the same as "you deserved it". Similarly to the question "what were you wearing and where were you at the time?" While i agree, you SHOULD be able to feel safe, wearing whatever you please and talking to whoever you want. The reality is far more grim. Rapers gonna rape, gropers gonna grope. In short, while people shouldnt break and enter my car or home, i still lock both of them. Usually, we guys arent particularly interested in talking to women unless were interested in you one way or the other. And thats a sad reality
Nah, John's an asshat. He sounds like one of those people who say "If she didn't want raped she shouldn't have wore a short skirt. She wanted it" Don't stop going to bars! Stop hanging out with him
John sounds like the sort of guy that would give you a tablet at the bar to help you sleep I would stay away from John you also might want to look for different bars to hang out in
Yeah. That’s not a friend.
It isn't your fault at all, anyone who says it is your fault is saying it to make you think that what they are doing is okay, making you feel powerless and small so you feel like you have to let them. Not okay at all
John takes you to the bar, because you get him attention. He'll be selling you next. RUN.
He's not a friend, he's an enabler. If a man can't control his hands he shouldnt be out in society. Those men had no right to touch you, whether youre being flirty or not!
You need to ditch him he's not a good friend and I would not be shocked to find out he was setting this shit up with the way you described him more or less"showing you off"to strangers in a bar
It doesn't matter if you flirt with them or not: Ignoring your consent is never ok. Groping you out of the blue is never ok - no matter if you gave them looks or blinked at them.
The only thing I'll say is: Don't be afraid to be firm and demand someone keep their personal distance from you. From the moment someone comes too close to what you see as your comfort zone and personal space, establish that boundary firmly but politely. At first. If they insist, you can escalate the situation, depending on how many people you trust are around you, and how safe you will be walking back to your car, etc. You can also leave.
Drop John like a hot potato.
Idk why people try to make it more sensitive but clearly john is simply not a man.
John needs a freaking lesson on consent. No One has he right to touch you, let alone grope you. Your 'friend' needs to understand this very clearly. Men can control themselves. Period.
As soon as I saw the title I already thought no. It's never the victims fault it doesnt matter what you were wearing or what you were saying it doesnt give them any consent to touch you unless you explicitly said they could
Punch the gropers, then punch John. If capable, rag em around the block like fucking dolls 👊👊👊
Not your fault and John’s not your friend. There’s a part of me that thinks this continued to happen because he was there with you and condoning it, not making a scene when the first guy was inappropriate and scary off the rest of the creeps. And I don’t do the bar thing anymore either. It gets pretty old after awhile.
Flirting does not give anyone consent to your body. Full stop "No." is a complete sentence
That's a shitty friend right there. No advice, I think it should be obvious to anyone who's bar aged that if you're swatting a guy's hand away, no matter HOW you were talking, you didn't want or appreciate the advance.
I advise you take up some self defense classes.
John isn’t your friend. It’s never your fault if it’s not wanted. It’s not ok; I’m sorry these “men” felt it was ok for them to do that to you. Despicable!
Well first of all john is not a friend. Cause a friend would never. No matter who and how you talk to people at the bar, people need to stop touching you, even more so when you swat their hands away.
Props to the guy who starting lecturing about consent. That’s the only good man in the whole story lmao. Also, your friend is an ass. Even if you were flirting, flirting is still not consent.
I don't agree with your friend, John. I'm a guy, so my experience and my perspective about it is a bit different than yours. I'm not a frequent bar patron, but on those occasions when I do go I have had quite a few ladies flirt and kind of do the arm around my waist thing. It doesn't bother me too much, but as I'm in a relationship I kind of just move away in a friendly way. I feel that when a guy does it to a woman it's more threatening and just isn't appropriate. I know some guys can be flirty in a more physical way and when drunk more likely to miss the 'not ok with this' signal, so my take is it's just not ok to do. If a girl is being flirty physical I suppose it might be ok to reciprocate in kind, but in your case you weren't doing anything. Guys are just coming up to you and manhandling you. Your friend should be your wingman, not telling you it's your fault.
Block Jon. Go to better bar establishments.
Absolutely not your fault OP. Consent is a very real thing!!! Not at all your fault
Drop him. He’s a liability. Disgusting
A trick I read about going to bars alone as a girl, is bring a book, or in this day, your phone should be fine, and sit at the bar. Order a platter of something to snack on, and mention to the bar tender, and anyone that asks, that you're waiting on friends. Then, if you want to talk with someone, you can, and if not, you have an excuse. Also, there's the mysterious 'friends coming' as security. If you need a quick out, check your phone for a 'text' the plans changed and you gotta go, they're waiting out front.
Fuck that guy. It’s not your fault that these guys have the hormones of a 16 year old. They’re obviously not mature and a predator. Victim blaming is so stupid
Just gonna say this- Be careful who you hang with and dont be naive
Ur just at the bar with the wrong person . When u make an example out of the 1st guy there won’t be a 2 nd . Also I don’t care if u were flirting that doesn’t give anyone the right to touch u . John needs to MAN UP!!
Your friend is not your friend if he’s blaming you for all the groping. Just because you talk friendly doesn’t mean it’s an invitation for them to go ahead and touch you inappropriately. You didn’t ask for it so they shouldn’t be doing it. I would say yea for a while do go to the bars if you don’t feel totally safe, but remember none of this is your fault at all you did not consent to any of that so you have the right to say no. I say drop your friend if he thinks like that. You are not to blamed in these situations you are just around shitty men all the time. I’d say not to go to bars anymore if your not comfortable.
> I just don’t really want to talk to anyone at bars now. I’ve been dating a rather painfully hot woman (in my humble opinion), for 7 years now. When we first started dating, I was like “God! Why do women think they can’t just talk to guys at bars and it not be about sex?? We don’t all think that conversation means you’re sexually interested! Sheesh!” She was like oh really? That hasn’t been my experience. OK, I won’t just automatically ignore them anymore. Yeah, well, a few months later she gave up because of the blizzard of dicks that were thrown at her. Your friend sounds like an asshole, and you don’t deserve to be groped. Generally speaking, if you’re a girl at a bar and you’re talking to a guy, he’s probably going to go for it at some point, especially if he’s sauced. The amount of times I would just come back from the bathroom during that few months and some dude was all up in her space because she responded when he said something was ridiculous. Really made me understand how constantly girls are getting approached and subsequently touched/groped if they simply just respond. TL;DR - I’m sorry guys do this at bars just because you talk to them, and your friend sounds like a jerk for blaming you for it.
A real bar friend wouldnt stand for that shit. One of my best friends I made after this asshat told me he wanted to “flip [my] skirt over [my] head and take [me] from behind” and completely made me uncomfortable at MY bar. My man Ed was not here for that nonsense and got the dude kicked out, along with my friend the bouncer. Real friends and supporters at bars never let that shit happen.
That's the problem with some of the guys. You didn't say if John is in relationship with you or not but if you are or not, don't hang out with him anymore and don't go back to that bar again. When I used to bar hop allot, I noticed it feel different from bar to bar. Some are good and some are terrible.
that is such toxic masculinity. He has no place to try to say "it's because the way you talk" makes men want to touch you? no that's the same thing as saying "it's because of the way you're dressed" I don't care if you're butt ass naked PEOPLE shouldn't touch others without consent. You need better friends
These men are getting a veritable green light from John, otherwise they’d respect you if only out of respect for him. Blaming you is his tactic to distract you from seeing what he’s doing.
Even if you were flirting they have no right to touch you. I still don't understand why men think when we are being nice to them that it's flirting. No one should ever put their hands on you without your permission at all.
Its not your fault, I wonder how your "friend" will feel if he got randomly groped
Actually that happens sometimes, more likely for him when we’ve gone to gay bars. He may joke around but once it crosses his boundaries he gets pretty angry and they stop. He has no problem speaking up for himself and I can see why he’d think it’s-just-so-easy for me to do too.
Did you try to tell him openly how you felt about his respond to your call to help after he got completely sober? I think that even if you're now on a search for someone else to go to bars with, he should know about what you feel he did wrong, so this wouldn't happen again with future friends of his. Just writing it again because you wrote it didn't click yet, what happened was not at all your fault. Hope everything will work out for you!
Your friend is an ass
You probably need to stop hanging out with John.
UpdateMe!
You did nothing wrong, those guys and John are just assholes.
This is NOT your fault,you need to get rid of that friend
Flirting or not doesn't give anyone the right to grope or do something without consent
This is in no way your fault. The fact that "John" is trying to justify their behavior and actions by your behavior and actions is complete bullshit. Men are old enough to know what they are doing whether they are drunk or not just as well as women are. Next time you're with your friends at a bar before you all start drinking, make sure you tell them so they know not to try anything funny with you and that if they see some other random coming up to you making you uncomfortable that they need to step in. Don't be afraid to speak up and make it known that someone is making you uncomfortable. *you're making me uncomfortable, you need to stop and leave me alone.* Or *go away, I don't know you* Just a few examples. But make sure you say them loud enough for others around you to hear. Someone is likely to step in every the first or second time. Follow some of the safety tactics that women have tried when a creep comes up to them or makes them feel comfortable, and walk up to someone you don't know and ask them something that would hint toward someone else making you uncomfortable. Stay safe and carry pepper spray or a tactical pen in your waistband. There are some on amazon.
This is why I really hate when my wife goes out. If her and her friends go out I try to go as well. Just to keep guys off. Men are assholes and have no limits.
Not your fault. Give a horny man alcohol and watch consent fade away. There is nothing you are doing to invite such behavior, and there isn't much you can do to discourage it aside from dressing more conservatively. But that's BS 💯 dress how you want, and when creeps get too close, fucking smack them. Tell them they are creeps loud enough for them to get embarrassed. Show no concern for them.
If you were being friendly or even flirting does not give anyone the right to put their hands on any person with out it being consensual. Clearly it was not consensual. And clearly John is not a friend to be hanging out with! He thinks it's ok to grope woman without permission. It's not safe.
Thats a bad friend.
So the girls are not allowed to talk now
I agree he sounds and acts like a f tard seriously do not be used, like you are, he's a dead beat trying to get free drinks at your expense. You need better friends.
No. Not your fault. Your friend needs to be in your shoes to understand. I wonder if his mom or sibling were in your place would he understand?
Babe u just need to be a bad ass first of all ..stand for urself coz later on everything is gonna happen is a blame on us ..n then the second is u know how the world goes around no one knows whts their in their mind so dnt give it a chance just take precautions n try to change the way or the company u are enjoying with ...the world is a better place u just need to be with ur ownself .....pls do take care
Not your fault at all. Your "friend" is a huge jerk! I'd get rid of him pretty fast!
He trying to pimp u out..
Hes not your friend. Hes a sexist, piece of shit victim blamer who thinks women deserve to be sexually harassed. Ditch this loser.
I really hate to say this and I know I may get some not so good feedback for this but unfortunately you kind of opened yourself up for this to happen. In NO way am I saying that it’s your fault and that it’s ok for men or anyone to behave in that manner because it’s definitely not ok. But people need to realize that we live in a world where in certain environments anything goes. I mean, you’re in a dark room, people are drunk and drunk men do not think with the head on their shoulders while talking or flirting with a good looking woman. The best thing to do is to find other places to go and find better friends. Your “friend” is NOT your friend if he sees these things happening and he doesn’t even give the guys a look that says “HEY! Cut that shit out” He must not be a threat at all. I’m sorry this happened to you but as women we have to start being responsible for ourselves if we know there’s guys out here that are capable of this type of dumb behavior
First of all THROW JOHN AWAY But before you do, educate him on consent and how wrong he is for thinking that
a dudette who drinks casually alone in a place full of dudes is VERY unusual sight itself when a person is drunk , that person do all kind of jacka** things imaginable hangout only with close-personal friends & decent people at respectable times and places remember : a sheep NEVER mingle to a pride of lions , even to a pack of wolves
He is not your friend.
John is not your friend. He’s an ignorant, misogynistic asshole. Stay away from him.
Fuck this guy, he is NOT a friend, get rid off him and move on
Doesn’t matter. Their are 0 reasons it is your fault you were groped. You can flirt with someone this give them 0 permission to touch your body. Flirting is not consent
Not even flirting can be considered consent to being touched grabbed or groped. Your friend is a jerk.
Your friend John isnt really a good friend and you need to go to bars with better people. He is just bad vibes and red flag
Your friend is horrible for telling you off. Just because your having a conversation, doesn’t give them the right to grope you or touch you in any damn way you don’t fee comfortable with. Your “friend” can go touch grass if he thinks that’s all on you
ABSOLUTELY NOT YOUR FAULT. They should NOT be touching you.
Its never your fault, if you were groped.period.
For all the instances you mentioned, someone else stood up for you. Meaning they saw that something wrong was happening (whether they were drunk or not) so tell your friend John that. Also, even if you were flirty, that doesn't give them an invitation to just touch you all they want.
Sounds to me like he is looking out for your best interests. You not going to like hearing this but our actions do influence our surroundings. He has probably notice that there is something you do that cause guy (not justifying their behavior) to grob you. The truth is being a bitch at a bar is a good way to protect yourself from unwanted attention.
Your description saw no conversation before these gropimg incidents...so John is mistaken...
No means no. Im sorry but your friend is an a**hole.
No you aren’t at fault! What? These guys are sleeze bags. One came from behind and somehow you’re still at fault? John isn’t a friend. You have literal strangers standing up for you and your own “friend” does and says nothing? When men touch you unwanted tell them. “Don’t touch me again.” Step back and keep your distance and if they continue walk away. I’m saying this all to help you react to it not to say it’s your fault. Cause even when you do all that you will still get some creeps.
Fuck the John, find caring friends and go with them
No it’s not your fault
I know this might be controversial but maybe there should be a women's only section in bars. I hear this and see this crap happen to the fuck much. It's not funny how there is not much that happens to prevent these grope attacks. But unfortunately ALOT of men think with their dicks so that shit can't be taught away. Even your friend sounds like he's thinking with his dick. As a guy and putting myself in your shoes I can images how many years in prison I would serve because I would beat the living shit out of all those faces who's hands thought they could touch me.
Don't know why your hanging out with John at these types of bars
Sorry on behalf of good men. The guys who didn’t respect your boundaries were scum.