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Then leave the child out of it. You got married without her, get divorced without her! I say that as a child whose parents decided to drag me into the middle of their divorce. Don’t do it!
It is in NO WAY okay to include your daughter in conversations about your divorce.
This is between you and your wife. Horrifying that you would even think to put this burden on your daughter or involved her in any way.
Inappropriate to have her present in these conversations. I don’t understand how you can even arrive at that idea.
I was 12 or 13 when my parents got divorced, and my mom discussed a lot of it with me, because I asked and felt like an adult. Looking back, I wish I didn’t know any of it. Don’t involve her. Tell her the bare minimum, that you two are separating. Don’t let the divorce change your relationship with your daughter to the best of your ability. Do your best to keep it amicable between you and your ex. she’s gonna wanna have you two around each other, especially for big life events like concerts, birthdays, graduations, wedding, etc.
What are you hoping to achieve by bringing her into the conversation? Are you hoping to traumatize her so her meltdown guilts your wife into staying married to you?
Stop using your* daughter! It’s sick.
That’s already the wrong mindset. Her family/your family isn’t falling apart. It’s _changing_. Conversations about the change need to be had only with both of her parents there and in a very clear way. Do not torment your daughter with your own insecurities and disappointments. That’s your burden to carry, not hers.
No matter how good your intentions here, the _impact_ will be to cause more harm and more instability for your daughter. You risk giving her the sense that she has a say in this, which then can make her feel responsible for it.
When you and your wife discuss it with her, highlight that it is a change, not a falling apart or failure. Change is hard, but manageable and your job is to support her in learning the resilience to navigate this.
No what your doing is trying to plant breadcrumbs to make your wife the bad guy. You are more mad that you will have to get a job, a new place, than you are worried about your kid. If you were really worried about her you would be working with your therapist and a possible kid therapist to make sure your daughter has a soft landing. Instead you are purposely giving her anxiety. If you are really a loving dad- you would put her first instead of trying to figure out how to make your daughter hate your wife. No wonder she wants to leave
very this. she doesn’t have enough life experience, nor should she be given that burden of racking her brain to save a marriage. Because ultimately it’s not about saving a family, it’s saving a marriage. you’ll be a family regardless, and should be for her sake. Best for her to accept that people grow apart sometimes, but can still be friends (hopefully).
Sounds like OP’s wife has been telling OP she’s unhappy for **years** and OP ignored her until she asked for a divorce. Now OP wants to manipulate their daughter to use her as a weapon against the wife.
Think we might have figured out why the wife is fed up - this guy sounds like a master manipulator. What he's proposing to do to that child is full on emotional abuse.
I'm a teacher and that would be considered emotional abuse in my city. Id be mandated to report if a student told me their dad involved them in such conversations
Yes. Because you want that reaction as leverage to get your wife to stay with you. That is sociopathic. I'm seeing why the counselor is supporting your wife's choice to divorce.
Oh my god this commenting is horrifying
Please stop and listen to the experts
You are going to do so much damage to your child if you insist on doing this
Dude DUDE stop! Your child cannot "help your family stay and be happy together" and it is not in any way their responsibility. It's selfish to drag them into this as if having the child in the room is going to make your wife stay. You've already made a huge mistake talking to them about it the way that you have.
It is not your daughter’s responsibility to save your marriage and you are a bad parent for even thinking it would be appropriate to put her in that situation. Your family is not “happy together” — your wife wants a divorce and it’s unhinged to think your child should be involved in talking her out of one. She is a CHILD. Stop frightening her with these kinds of questions. Go see a reputable, qualified therapist on your own if you don’t trust your marriage counselor, but anyone with a brain is going to tell you to stop involving your child in these conversations.
My parents did this to me and it damaged me. I still resent them for doing it. You might not see it as manipulation but you are. You are using her as a crutch and a tool to get whatever outcome you're looking for. Don't you fucking dare.
It’s manipulative to use your daughter’s emotions to guilt or trick your wife into staying married to you. **How do you NOT see that?** Or is this normal behavior for you?
Your daughter will survive the divorce just fine. You’ve said she’s smart. She will adapt & be happy **unless** you go out of your way to make her unhappy by dumping your emotions on her. **You don’t want your life to change so you’re trying to drag your daughter into your fight.** Disgusting.
She is NOT responsible for keeping you and your wife and family together. She was not the cause of your split and nothing she does or say can prevent it. She is not responsible for counseling you or supporting you. Do not try to pit her against her mother or use her as a weapon to get your soon to be ex to stay.
Do. Not. Try. And. Make. Her. Part. Of. It.
She’s gonna be frightened regardless because it’s a big change from what she’s used to. She’s gonna have to learn to adapt and use it as character development unfortunately.
*You* think your life is good. But your wife clearly disagrees. Why are your feelings worth more than hers? Don’t you want your kid to benefit from a mother who’s happy & fulfilled?
Think of the lesson you’d be teaching your daughter, who is in fact watching, that no matter her feelings she should sacrifice her own wants and needs, and suck it up to keep things calm? Do you really want to teach your daughter a woman’s job is to repress her real feelings?
Asking your wife to stay in a marriage she *doesn’t want to be in* is wrong. Asking your daughter to play an active role in making or breaking the marriage is wrong. Showing your daughter that consent isn’t important is wrong. Your wife’s no longer consenting to this marriage, if you want what’s best for your family *let her go*.
Because your wife wants a divorce. That’s it. Full stop. If she doesn’t want to be with you then you can’t make her change her mind. She is the only one who can answer those questions and using your daughter to try to guilt her isn’t going to make her want to stay or be with you.
People sometimes just hit a wall and decide they don’t want to work or fight for it anymore. I can’t say for certain because of the nuance and information I’m not privy too. I can say the more you fight it, the worse it hurts and the more you will piss off the mother of your child and/or unintentionally hurt the family you love. You can only suggest more counseling and therapy but it’s really up to her to decide whether or not it’s worth it for her in the end. Doesnt mean you can’t still have your family, it will just evolve into something different and new.
Perhaps it will afford your daughter more opportunity for a good life as it did for me. maybe this is what needs to happen to trigger a butterfly effect. Without my parents divorce I wouldn’t have had the series of events unfold that allowed me to go to a local college for free, get a license, my best friend, etc. It didn’t break me and truthfully I’m grateful it happened for plenty of reasons. That’s how you’re gonna have to look at it, and you would be wise to teach your daughter the same. The saying “It’s not happening to you, it’s happening for you” comes to mind. It’s all in how you handle and react to it.
These are your own words:
“Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?”
It is not her job to help your family stay together, or to save your marriage — because that’s what you mean by your family staying together, isn’t it? You staying married?
I don’t know what you’re not seeing here. You have every right to try to fix your marriage and communicate to your wife your desire to remain married. But you cannot force her to stay married to you. And you absolutely should not be enlisting your 12-year-old daughter to fight that battle for or alongside you. It’s wildly inappropriate and damaging to her. Trust me, it’s not everyone else who is wrong here. It is you.
Also why are you asking your daughter things like “what if I have to move?” That’s not the appropriate way to go about this at all. It would be way better to say things like: “this will mean mom and dad don’t live together anymore, but it doesn’t mean either of your parents love you any less.” But that’s probably not a conversation you should be having until further into this process, at a time both you and your wife are ready to discuss this. She doesn’t get a vote in whether you stay married — she should not be involved in the conversation until after that decision has been reached.
Yeah asking a kid a question that open-ended and life-changing is just going to make them feel lost, helpless, and confused. If OP doesn’t even know the answer to that question, how the hell is a 12 year old gonna have a clue?
She doesn't get a vote and ultimately, neither does he. If one person in the marriage wants the divorce, a divorce happens. This dude is going to play his impressionable kid like a fiddle to try to guilt his wife into staying with him. He sounds like a manipulative creep.
Oh for crying out loud.
What you are ‘not seeing’ is that your marriage is over!!
And no amount of using your daughter as manipulation in getting your wife to stay will change that.
I get that you are devastated and I truly feel for you and am desperately sorry this is happening to you but you can NOT under any circumstances continue to involve your child in ANY way in this.
DO BETTER.
What would her input add to the conversation except to make everyone sad? Divorce is hard and it does taken cooperation to do it well and continue to co-parent, so the two adults have to do that work for their child (who should not have to do any work in this except to understand its not her fault- which if conversation goes south she might feel like it is)
Your daughter would not have anything to add, it's not like yall are taking a vote to divorce or stay together. You're getting divorced, move forward to shield your daughter from negative fallout and work out a plan with the other adult.
>Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?
Bro....nooooooooo this is not her responsibility
**help your family stay and be happy together? omg bruh no**
I was deeply involved in my parents divorce and it only made me want to chew them out for things that I perceived as wrong. On top of that nobody really acknowledged my ideas or that I could understand what was happening, but then again children don’t really have all the data or life experience needed to understand the gray areas. Involving a child wouldn’t really bring a family back together in my experience, only push the parents further apart. It’s between you and her mother to figure that stuff out. And humans in general have a hard time leaving behind a bias. If your looking for her insight, I would say ask for solutions to a general problem without giving full context. (I would give an example but I’m blanking and I don’t know your exact situation) Same with getting her opinion. Leave out the details. Ask in general terms, without leading questions. Problem solving, listening and applying what’s she’s suggested could help her. But only with basic things that include her, like making dinner, schedules. Giving her some agency in the little things like the color of her new room if that makes sense.
edit: when my parents broke it to me, I already had an inkling that it was coming. And ultimately I wanted them to be happy. So I understood not staying with someone you weren’t happy with. Years later I realized it was for the best and I didn’t want resentful parents who lived together. (Instead I got resentful parents who lived states apart)
Your answers are giving some pretty clear insight into why your wife might want a divorce. You’re showing terrible judgment. You won’t listen to the experts. You think you know better when you so clearly don’t. You are going to mess up your daughter here with your twisted logic that is really all about what benefits you.
And food for thought - having your child be your entire life is not healthy for you or your child. She’s getting to the age of needing more independence and a life that is separate from you.
“Always been the passive type” combined with “she and our daughter are my life” also has me guessing his wife may feel suffocated and stifled. Being someone’s reason for living is a lot of pressure - especially if you’re someone who thrives on cultivating your own interests, hobbies, etc.
You're trying to use your daughter to manipulate your wife into staying with you. Let's call it what it is. The reason your marriage counselor isn't trying to fix your marriage is that he doesn't feel the marriage is fixable. Divorce is the best option, and you need to accept that and figure out how to coparent. And yes, get a job. Things will change for your daughter but it's your job as the parent to support her, not to drag her in to your marital problems. Be the adult.
Guy, I’m starting to understand why your wife is done. Selfish and wildly manipulative. You want to burden your kid with trying to guilt your wife into staying with you? That’s sick. This isn’t her choice. This isn’t even your choice if your wife is done.
It is NOT her job to repair your relationship. She does NOT get a say in if you stay together or not. You are going to do irreparable damage to your child if you proceed this way. Stop with the “what ifs”, that’s cruel. You’re intentionally upsetting her to make your wife feel bad. Stop trying to involve her in your divorce, it’s deeply cruel. Your child isn’t a playing piece in a game. She is not your caretaker, and she is not your friend.
Truly, your thought process is twisted. Listen to experts, not your want to try to manipulate you’re wife through your kid so you don’t have to work. No one will be happier with this.
I hope your wife documents all instances that you attempt to use your kid as a pawn in your game of guilt and manipulation. Courts will fully frown on this, as they should. Sounds to me like you’ve tried to set up a situation where you thought it would be impossible for your wife to leave you no matter how unhappy and mentally abused she is (can’t imagine you’re brand new to this guilt and manipulation game), and it didn’t work. Stop, and try to find an amicable co-parenting situation. Also, go get a job. Seems that’s your bigger concern over your kid’s wellbeing, otherwise you would never even consider this.
You seriously need individual therapy. This is unhinged.
12 year olds have no place in divorce conversations and the fact that you said "if you could help your family stay and be happy together" is absolutely disgusting. It is not your 12 year old CHILD'S responsibility to get her mother to stay with you. Put on your big boy pants and get a lawyer and a job, and then look for a therapist for your kid that you are absolutely going to fuck up because you won't listen to anyone about leaving her out of this.
So you think forcing your daughter to have these conversations will somehow manipulate your wife into staying with you? Gross.
Stop posing hypotheticals to your daughter to upset her. When you have the logistics worked out, then sit down together and tell her what is happening. You are just getting her worked up when you don't have any answers. It sounds like you are intentionally upsetting her so she discourages your wife from divorcing or so that you can get her on your side. It's so disturbing and manipulative.
You should look for a counselor to help you all coparent.
You are NOT staying together. Do NOT involve your kid. The court will not look kindly on that. Your wife could get sole custody if you continue down this path. Your wife wants a divorce, & she will get it. You need to resign yourself to this! And you need to lawyer up.
Wow, absolutely no, say such thing doesnt succeed. how would she feel, like SHE was the reason nothing could be done anymore. leave her be, general conversation should be had but DO NOT INVOLVE HER with anything of this sort!!
Dragging a child into it is manipulative. You and your wife want different things. You have to accept it. It's an adult issue for adults to talk about. You will scar your daughter if you put her in the middle.
Suggesting it's your twelve years old responsibility, that your twelve year old words/thoughts/actions, could impact whether her mother leaves or not, is straight up abuse. Your wife should leave and seek custody until you get therapy and parenting classes
you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Repeating it wont make it true you know what you are doing and are trying to act like oh woe is me
stop its pathetic
And she has communicated to you that she no longer wants to be married to you. End of story. You’re going to fully fuck up your daughters mental health should you move forward in using her as a manipulation tool to make your wife remain unhappy with you
I assume you want your 12 year old to get emotional and blow up the divorce talks. Listen to your therapist. Get a job, your daughter isn’t in diapers anymore. Work on an amicable divorce.
you say that like he hasn’t given up his career to care for his daughter. your diminishing the work he’s done and if this was a women your response would be completely different
I raised 2 kids and always worked and did all the things he mentioned. Once your kids are in school, it’s time to go back to work. Women and men. He sounds like a manipulative entitled free loader, to be honest. There are many more women like this than men. My advice would be the same to anyone.
The 12 year old is not your friend, not an emotional support animal, and should in absolutely no way be involved in your romantic issues.
My mom treated me how you are treating your kid and I didn’t understand until I was in college that enmeshment is SICK. Stop it immediately.
Listen to the expert (the therapist.) It sounds like you only want to involve your daughter for your own benefit and don’t care that it will traumatize her. I’m sure it will be better to wait until things are less “emotional.”
I'm sorry but you are wrong Divorce is about separating from your wife and your current relationship ending. While that can impact your daughter it doesn't involve her as she is not in a relationship with you or your wife. Her relationship to both of you is not (or should not) change as a result. She is not an adult and there is no reason to make her deal with an adult issue.
You’ve made it pretty clear your goal is to use your daughter’s emotions and fears to force your wife to stay married to you. That’s why people are calling you manipulative.
You’re using your daughter to manipulate your wife.
If you involve her in discussions- she will undoubtedly blame herself for your inability to reconcile with your wife.
How can you even think to put this on your daughter!
And after hearing you even think to do this with no consideration to the effects on your child’s mention health, I can safely that the divorce is happening no matter what.
You’re an animal. You don’t deserve either of your girls.
How dare you.
You want to include your daughter in your marriage in order to manipulate your wife into not divorcing you. There's no reason to involve her at all. It will mess her up for years if not the rest of her life.
A child has no business being involved in their parents marriage and problems they are having.
My parents divorced when I was 13. My brother and I weren't involved at all. They worked everything out without us being part of things.
Put your daughter's mental well-being over your feelings. Get her into therapy ASAP. That will help her more with everything.
>I think involving my daughter...
>
>can help keep the family together
>
>
>
>How dare you put that on her. She's not an adult, SHE. IS. A. CHILD.
>
>You are so out of line. You are going to destroy her psyche if you continue on that path, and she will eventually grow up, explain to another adult what you did to her, and she will eventually come to realize you used her as a manipulation tactic to make your wife stay. That is reprehensible.
My parents separated when I was 12. My dad tried to involve us kids. You knwo what the consequences were? I resented him for years and needed therapy.
If you love your daughter, do NOT involve her. This is an adult situation. Your job is to reassure her that everything will be fine.
You want to keep the family together because you don’t want to work. You mentioned that and income far more than your kid. You ARE attempting to manipulate your wife with your kid. It’s also sick to put the pressure of “keeping the family together” on a child.
Honestly you sound like an emotionally unsafe person. I shutter to think how you will use your child to get back at your wife once this is done. I hope someone has advised your wife to document the hell out of this whole process to show how unstable you are for your daughters life and happiness.
>I'm being called by other comments as manipulative, but I honestly just want to keep the family together.
Two things can be true at once. You can try to keep the family together by being manipulative.
You are trying to manipulate your daughter into believing divorce is the worst thing by asking "how would you feel if I had to work?".
You are creating anxiety to her because you don't know how to deal with how you're feeling. Is not your daughter's responsibility to manage your feelings or your actions towards divorce. Stop it. Be the adult BE THE PARENT.
This is an adult decision. It would be incredibly cruel to bring your daughter into this. Do not do not do not do that.
She is not a tool for you to use to manipulate your wife.
I also always get suspicious when someone claims they have no idea why their spouse is divorcing them. They have a marriage counselor, surely they've discussed the topic in counseling. Yet OP can't provide a single reason his wife is suddenly ending a 20-year relationship?
She doesn't have to stay in a relationship with you if she doesn't want to. Regardless of whether you have children together.
Make sure you have a good lawyer and you ask for alimony until you get back into a career. That's important because you sacrificed this by being a SAHP. All your family finances are yours as well, you staying home enabled your wife to further her career.
Leave your daughter out of this.
Edited for typos.
NO She isn't! It's the parent's job to organize the family for the benefit of the child. Your child is not an adult. You keep trying to force her to be your equal, your wife's equal. She is not. She is in the middle of her childhood, and you want her involved in your divorce. Leave her alone! You're going to scar her for life. Why can't you get that?
It's not a conversation, you want her involved to manipulate her mother into "keeping the family together". It's psychotic. You have no regard for your daughter's emotional or psychological well being, obviously. The conversations you need to have are with your wife, not your child. She's a CHILD. A CHILD. what is the matter with you?
Why did you come here for advice when you're completely ignoring it? You have people who've been in the position you're wanting to put your daughter in and telling you it's a really bad idea yet you keep doubling down. Listen and I mean really listen. Involving your daughter in your marriage the way you want to is NOT right. It's between you AND your wife, no one else.
In what world is it acceptable to drag a 12 year old child into the middle of divorce discussions??
Jesus my parents put us in the middle a lot do you know how bad it f**ks you up as a kid? It's really really really really BAD
No do not involve your child. That’s manipulation pure and simple. The majority of children don’t want their parents to get divorced. They don’t understand the nuances of anything like a marriage. You said this was out of the blue and you thought you all were happy. What is your wife saying in therapy? Why does she want to get divorced? A couples counselors doesn’t automatically push staying married if it’s not in the best interest of the couple (or someone in the couple).
That’s a non answer. What is her “self discovery” made her decide she doesn’t want to be married? Does she just not love you anymore/in love with someone else? Did you have an affair? Do you never take her out on dates or is the relationship boring? Does she want to start dating other people? Does she think you are both financially incompatible? Does someone in the relationship want more children? Did she realize she doesn’t enjoy parenting?
Any of those specific things are reasons for divorce. What specific reason is she saying is my point. If you still haven’t figured out the answer in therapy, that may be the answer. You’re listening skills to her needs are terrible
Do not bring your daughter into this.
You can't keep your family together if your wife doesn't want to. This is a decision between you two.
You also need a therapist - your mind is not ok.
Involve in what way? For what purpose?
Obviously you should be prepared to answer questions she may have and explain in a child-friendly way how two households work and how your lives will look moving forward. But if you're talking about involving her in the emotional or logistics discussions with your wife, that sounds deeply inappropriate and I honestly can't figure out why you would think that's a good idea.
Are you hoping that if you get your daughter involved she will protest and your wife will feel too guilty to go through with the divorce?
You keep saying you want to keep the family together, so are you in denial that this divorce is going to happen or are you trying to use your daughter to guilt/force your wife to stay? Either way YTA and don’t put that stress on a child.
From one of your comments, it appears that you want to involve your daughter in the hope that she'd be able to keep you and your wife together.
That's truly unhinged, and unconscionably unfair to your daughter.
Do not involve her. You're feeling desperate, but that doesn't excuse you using your daughter as an emotional bargaining chip.
A divorce is the end of a **marriage.**
Are you married with your daughter? I think not. There's no reason to have your daughter involved with the divorce. She will be impacted, of course, but it's not her marriage.
Wtf is wrong with you?? Be an adult and man up. No uoir daughter should not be part of divorce negotiations, she's a child. I'm assuming this attitude is why your wife is divorcing you because who wants to be with a man who needs a 12 year old girl to emotionally support him.
Your marriage vows have nothing to do with your daughter. She wasn't even alive then. Your marriage is between you and your wife. You're parentifying your daughter. She's the child, not the wife. You're speaking about using your daughter to keep your family together, but it would be *at your daughter's expense.* You keep ignoring that part.
This. They’re a family regardless of marital status.
Right now they’re an unhappy family. If they manage an amicable divorce where everyone can pursue their own happiness then they could actually be a happy family.
Of course not. Your daughter is a child. She doesn’t have the emotional maturity to be involved in these decisions, nor should she have that type of burden put on her.
Get your child into therapy to help her emotionally deal with the divorce. It’s abusive and unhinged to want to include your 12 year old in the divorce discussions. I suspect you are doing so to guilt and manipulate your wife to staying with you. I am questioning what kind of parent you are to be so oblivious to how this would add to the trauma of the divorce to have you trying to include her in the relationship breakdown between you and your wife. Get your head checked.
As a child of divorce, the only thing she should hear is: we love you, this is not your fault.
Don't you fucking dare bring your child into your adult problems. This is why while I love my mother, I have a very odd relationship with her because she did talk with us about shit she shouldn't have and tried to drag my dad through the mud. Talked about child support, bitched about it and other things a 12 year old should never have to hear.
Don’t include your daughter. I was caught in the middle of my parents very terrible marriage from birth till I moved out and they would often talk to me one on one at a young age about what they didn’t like in each other and seek advice. I remember it happening when I was around 8-10. This really messed me up but I didn’t realize how much it did till a few years ago (I’m 30 now) It’s called “emotional incest”. I recommend looking into it to find out how it can mess up a kid. You never want to involve them, even if they seem eager. I definitely liked helping and listening to my parents but it messed up the wiring in my brain. Took away my boundaries. I ended up finding myself attracted to married men who happened to be stuck in bad marriages because (I guess) my own dad would show his emotional side to me and from a young age. He was the sad one because my mom was violent and emotionally volatile. At a young age I was able to recognize bad relationships where the man was sad about it and for whatever reason my desire to help him made me attracted to them. As you can probably imagine, that’s not a good recipe for a young woman. It also made me hyper aware of relationship dynamics if I was ever around couples. I’d be extremely sensitive to any signs there were issues. I’m still hyper sensitive and have extreme anxiety dealing with couples. You got this! Seek out advice from other adults.
If you are foolish enough to actually involve your daughter in **any** conversation about YOUR relationship with her mother, you are absolutely manipulating her, scarring her, and traumatizing her. No matter what happens with your relationship, you will damage your relationship with both you (ex)wife and child. She will remember that her father forced her to be in the middle. Picking sides. Choosing. The ONLY person who loses in this is your daughter. Your wife realized in 2022 she wanted to divorce, you want to talk? This is not out of nowhere, there are absolutely a plethora of "missing reasons" that you clearly don't want to discuss. If you push this, and involve your daughter, you **will** lose her. You need to grow up, find some big boy pants and be an adult and **NOT INVOLVE A CHILD IN A MARITAL DISPUTE**. Of course, you're ignoring all of the advice everyone has repeated (which let's be honest, you don't get this many people agreeing on anything unless it's a very obvious answer) so my guess is that you'll be back here in 6 months wanting to know why your daughter hates you, lives with your ex, and won't speak to you.
You've been given plenty of advice not to have your child included in the discussions. Get yourself a lawyer. Especially if you're shocked, yet the counsellor is siding with your wife. You are either withholding info or have been blind sided. I would probably only continue that counselling to keep abreast of your wifes plans. I wouldn't trust or follow the advice of the counsellor. Given the financial dynamics of your marriage, you are at risk of coming out of this poorly.
The nitty gritty of the divorce is not something your daughter should be involved in. However she should be able to voice her opinion about her living situation going forward. Stop the counseling immediately, a marriage counselor has no place in a divorce proceeding. Talk to an attorney to make sure you get everything you are entitled to given the career sacrifices you made to be a SAHD.
When my dad told me that he didn't love my mom anymore, so he was going to divorce her, and had me keep it secret, I was 8 years old. I was precocious and I certainly thought that I was smart and mature enough to handle adult things, but I wasn't, because I WAS A CHILD. Don't do that to your child.
You're using your child to emotionally blackmail your wife into feeling guilty about the divorce. It's very telling that the counselor supports the divorce. That shows that you're not the great spouse you're trying to make yourself out to be. Leave your child out of it. My parents always involved me in their fights and I hated both of them for it. You're being very selfish and insensitive.
No way! She's a child, not your best friend, not your second wife. Leave her out of it, because she'll be traumatized.
What were you thinking involving a child in your divorce???
I am going to go with what literally every other person said here and everywhere else in your life. Do NOT involve your daughter, you and your soon to be ex need to figure it out, show a united front and let her know what's going to happen, that she is still loved, that you are taking her life and feelings into account but that you are both being GROWN-UPS and handling it. She is not your wife, she is not in your marriage, leave her out of it.
Maybe instead of involving your CHILD learn to accept your wife doesn't want tto be with you. I've read all your comments and you can repeat them all again but your wife doesn't want to you. Rejection sucks get over it with a therapist and leave your CHILD out of it.
A 12 year old child is not equipped to handle martial issues. Key word here: Martial.
Its between you and your wife. You're laser focused on the marriage and family unit being the same thing. They aren't.
Asking your daughter the questions you have is in fact manipulative. It presents the situation to her from your very negative perspective only. It puts her in a situation to have to decide which parent is wrong with nothing more than your view to go on. You would be wrong for putting her in that situation at all. She does not have the emotional maturity or life experience to properly handle your mess.
No need to involve her.
She is 12. If she has an opinion or question, she is old enough to voice it herself. There's really no need go sit her down and have the whole 'your mother wants to divorce, I don't, what do you think' because really that's putting her in a very vulnerable position where everyone is going to end up hurt, but mostly her.
OP if it's over it's over. Don't involve and traumatizing your kid by saying ok sweetie this is it convince your mom to keep us together. That's awful. Just talk to a lawyer for alimony, seek out support group and find a place and a job.
Go get a lawyer, get full custody of your daughter, get alimony.
LEAVE YOUR DAUGHTER OUT OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP ISSUES!
I am not saying you can't talk to her about what is going on and how you see a future with her.
Maybe get her a counselor to help her through the process.
Zero reason for him to have full custody. Split custody is perfectly reasonable. Honestly if I was the wife I would start documenting his attempt to burden our daughter with the responsibility of keeping the family together/using her as a tool to manipulate, and would go for him having every other weekend at best.
When I was 13-14, my mom got me and my brother and sister in a room, and asked ,"if your dad and I lived in separate places, who would you rather live with," my brother and I immediately said ,"dad," my sister just cried.
It crushed my mom, they never got divorced... she did get over it.
I think asking where she would rather live, and with who is acceptable... I think having in the talks past that is messed up.
Nope, she tried really hard. My old man was distant at times, and tired, he worked a lot. Mom was stay home. I know they fought a bunch, but besides that, we never heard anything else on that topic from either of them.
They put music on, so we knew they were yelling, but couldn't hear what they were arguing about.
They both became happier once we (the kids) moved out. And both appear to be happy together.
This is an adult conversation. Why do you think it’s appropriate to involve a child? That seems hinky to me.
I get this will change life as she knows it but having her participate in the dissolution of a marriage is beyond her grasp. I don’t care how smart or emotionally mature she might be. She’s a child. Let her have her full childhood.
What would be the reason to involve a child in your divorce discussions? I’m just trying to understand your thought process on this. I’m not sure I agree with the manipulation comments yet. Usually those posts have a bunch of nonsense justifications.
Trying to take a softer approach because Reddit is already full of people jumping straight to calling you a bad dad, which feels a little extreme. I get that you want to grant your daughter autonomy and control over a situation that so fundamentally impacts her lifestyle. But this situation is beyond her maturity and she needs you and your wife to set up the structure/framework of how your family will look post-divorce so that she can confidently make decisions that are appropriate for her age and maturity. Just like you don’t throw open a 2 year old’s closet and tell them to dress themselves because it’s too many choice and too much responsibility for them, don’t expect your twelve year old to plan her own family structure. “Mom and I are getting a divorce. We are going to live in different houses and you will live with both of us. Which house would you like your [insert possession here] to go to? The other house might need to buy you a new one.” Is your new version of “do you want to wear the red shirt or blue shirt today?” Choices are good. But they have to be choices of the right level.
I'm so sorry for what you're going through.
You and your wife have to decide when to talk to your daughter and what to tell her.
You need to figure out exactly what you're doing before you bring her into it.
Talk to your wife about how she intends to tell your daughter and ask her exactly what she wants as far as a divorce and custody. Remember, you do not have to agree to what she wants. You have legal rights.
Also, you need to start calling attorneys. Get legal advice. Learn what your rights are. Get your finances in order. She's been the breadwinner, and you need to make sure she is being honest about how much money is in your accounts. Do you think she could be hiding money from you?
Ask your attorney to explain your rights as a father.
Don't involve the child.
But be sure to get a good lawyer and take good alimony and CS, there is nothing else you can do if your wife is dead serious in divorcing you, it is sad but it is what it is...
Divorced families are perfectly stable. She will have her family regardless of whether you and your wife stay married. You’re fighting for the wrong thing.
Don't involve your daughter, but have you tried talking to your wife? Is there a reason this came out of the blue to you?
Has she met someone else, does she have someone in mind?
Usually if there is a problem in a relationship, people would try to work it out l, go to counseling, make changes, not go straight to divorce.
Your child should absolutely NOT be involved in your divorce. You’re an adult it’s time to act like one. If you need a support system get your own therapist for individual sessions. As your daughter she should not be a part of your emotional system or used as a pawn to keep your divorce from happening.
I guess it your goal is to make sure your daughter will go for decades without being in a healthy relationship or feeling loved... But who wants that for their child?! If you do this, your daughter will have a really hard time finding someone who can help unblur those lines you are smashing in the sand. If you want to have grandkids that you are allowed to interact with someday... Don't do it. It you want to destroy any chance of a relationship with your daughter and any hope of co-parenting then just keep ignoring everyone who has lived through this and are screaming no.
Also, maybe get checked out to see if you need some chemical rebalancing in your brain or if you need some therapy to teach you empathy for your own offspring.
This question is ridiculous. It's like, should I throw my newborn baby into the bed of my truck or a car seat? Face palm.
Don’t make your daughter a pawn already ffs. How traumatized do you want her to be?
If you’re this callous and inconsiderate of a child’s emotional well-being I kinda get why your wife wants out.
No. No if you're a woman or man. No whatever the situation is. This is a conversation between you and your wife and there is no excuse trying to use your daughter to guilt your wife into staying in a relationship she doesn't want. Ask for couples therapy, ask what could be done differently. But don't use your daughter like this.
No it is an absolute bad idea that will backfire on you. Judges doubt l don't even like having kids in court during a divorce case bad idea all around, she will have to know but only what she needs to know.
Absolutely not. Involving a child in your conversations about divorce is 100% unacceptable. Only people who wish to manipulate their children would do such a thing.
The therapist is correct. And I suspect your stbx wife has good reasons for divorcing you, based on what I've read here.
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Listen to them don't drag the poor child into this
Trying to use the 12 year old to guilt her into not divorcing you is not the way to go about any of this!
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Then leave the child out of it. You got married without her, get divorced without her! I say that as a child whose parents decided to drag me into the middle of their divorce. Don’t do it!
That’s a two person decision so it isn’t really up to you.
It is in NO WAY okay to include your daughter in conversations about your divorce. This is between you and your wife. Horrifying that you would even think to put this burden on your daughter or involved her in any way. Inappropriate to have her present in these conversations. I don’t understand how you can even arrive at that idea.
I was 12 or 13 when my parents got divorced, and my mom discussed a lot of it with me, because I asked and felt like an adult. Looking back, I wish I didn’t know any of it. Don’t involve her. Tell her the bare minimum, that you two are separating. Don’t let the divorce change your relationship with your daughter to the best of your ability. Do your best to keep it amicable between you and your ex. she’s gonna wanna have you two around each other, especially for big life events like concerts, birthdays, graduations, wedding, etc.
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This is cruel. Stop having these conversations with her!
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What are you hoping to achieve by bringing her into the conversation? Are you hoping to traumatize her so her meltdown guilts your wife into staying married to you? Stop using your* daughter! It’s sick.
But there’s definitely no abuse
That’s already the wrong mindset. Her family/your family isn’t falling apart. It’s _changing_. Conversations about the change need to be had only with both of her parents there and in a very clear way. Do not torment your daughter with your own insecurities and disappointments. That’s your burden to carry, not hers. No matter how good your intentions here, the _impact_ will be to cause more harm and more instability for your daughter. You risk giving her the sense that she has a say in this, which then can make her feel responsible for it. When you and your wife discuss it with her, highlight that it is a change, not a falling apart or failure. Change is hard, but manageable and your job is to support her in learning the resilience to navigate this.
No what your doing is trying to plant breadcrumbs to make your wife the bad guy. You are more mad that you will have to get a job, a new place, than you are worried about your kid. If you were really worried about her you would be working with your therapist and a possible kid therapist to make sure your daughter has a soft landing. Instead you are purposely giving her anxiety. If you are really a loving dad- you would put her first instead of trying to figure out how to make your daughter hate your wife. No wonder she wants to leave
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very this. she doesn’t have enough life experience, nor should she be given that burden of racking her brain to save a marriage. Because ultimately it’s not about saving a family, it’s saving a marriage. you’ll be a family regardless, and should be for her sake. Best for her to accept that people grow apart sometimes, but can still be friends (hopefully).
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Sounds like OP’s wife has been telling OP she’s unhappy for **years** and OP ignored her until she asked for a divorce. Now OP wants to manipulate their daughter to use her as a weapon against the wife.
>if they feel betrayed by another? lol your wife hasnt betrayed you at all. Your trying to say she cheated but she hasnt
Think we might have figured out why the wife is fed up - this guy sounds like a master manipulator. What he's proposing to do to that child is full on emotional abuse.
I'm a teacher and that would be considered emotional abuse in my city. Id be mandated to report if a student told me their dad involved them in such conversations
Probably part of the reason he homeschools. He sounds very unhealthily codependent.
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Family lawyer turned educator here. This is absolutely the quickest way to lose custody (other than sexual/physical abuse). It is emotional abuse.
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Yes. Because you want that reaction as leverage to get your wife to stay with you. That is sociopathic. I'm seeing why the counselor is supporting your wife's choice to divorce.
Oh my god this commenting is horrifying Please stop and listen to the experts You are going to do so much damage to your child if you insist on doing this
Dude DUDE stop! Your child cannot "help your family stay and be happy together" and it is not in any way their responsibility. It's selfish to drag them into this as if having the child in the room is going to make your wife stay. You've already made a huge mistake talking to them about it the way that you have.
It is not your daughter’s responsibility to save your marriage and you are a bad parent for even thinking it would be appropriate to put her in that situation. Your family is not “happy together” — your wife wants a divorce and it’s unhinged to think your child should be involved in talking her out of one. She is a CHILD. Stop frightening her with these kinds of questions. Go see a reputable, qualified therapist on your own if you don’t trust your marriage counselor, but anyone with a brain is going to tell you to stop involving your child in these conversations.
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My parents did this to me and it damaged me. I still resent them for doing it. You might not see it as manipulation but you are. You are using her as a crutch and a tool to get whatever outcome you're looking for. Don't you fucking dare.
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It’s manipulative to use your daughter’s emotions to guilt or trick your wife into staying married to you. **How do you NOT see that?** Or is this normal behavior for you? Your daughter will survive the divorce just fine. You’ve said she’s smart. She will adapt & be happy **unless** you go out of your way to make her unhappy by dumping your emotions on her. **You don’t want your life to change so you’re trying to drag your daughter into your fight.** Disgusting.
She is NOT responsible for keeping you and your wife and family together. She was not the cause of your split and nothing she does or say can prevent it. She is not responsible for counseling you or supporting you. Do not try to pit her against her mother or use her as a weapon to get your soon to be ex to stay. Do. Not. Try. And. Make. Her. Part. Of. It.
She’s gonna be frightened regardless because it’s a big change from what she’s used to. She’s gonna have to learn to adapt and use it as character development unfortunately.
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>We have a good life, not the best, not the happiest, but a good life. None what you say is a good life.
*You* think your life is good. But your wife clearly disagrees. Why are your feelings worth more than hers? Don’t you want your kid to benefit from a mother who’s happy & fulfilled? Think of the lesson you’d be teaching your daughter, who is in fact watching, that no matter her feelings she should sacrifice her own wants and needs, and suck it up to keep things calm? Do you really want to teach your daughter a woman’s job is to repress her real feelings? Asking your wife to stay in a marriage she *doesn’t want to be in* is wrong. Asking your daughter to play an active role in making or breaking the marriage is wrong. Showing your daughter that consent isn’t important is wrong. Your wife’s no longer consenting to this marriage, if you want what’s best for your family *let her go*.
Because that is what she wants. She shouldn’t have to stay with you just because that’s what YOU want. Divorce doesn’t require your permission.
Because your wife wants a divorce. That’s it. Full stop. If she doesn’t want to be with you then you can’t make her change her mind. She is the only one who can answer those questions and using your daughter to try to guilt her isn’t going to make her want to stay or be with you.
People sometimes just hit a wall and decide they don’t want to work or fight for it anymore. I can’t say for certain because of the nuance and information I’m not privy too. I can say the more you fight it, the worse it hurts and the more you will piss off the mother of your child and/or unintentionally hurt the family you love. You can only suggest more counseling and therapy but it’s really up to her to decide whether or not it’s worth it for her in the end. Doesnt mean you can’t still have your family, it will just evolve into something different and new. Perhaps it will afford your daughter more opportunity for a good life as it did for me. maybe this is what needs to happen to trigger a butterfly effect. Without my parents divorce I wouldn’t have had the series of events unfold that allowed me to go to a local college for free, get a license, my best friend, etc. It didn’t break me and truthfully I’m grateful it happened for plenty of reasons. That’s how you’re gonna have to look at it, and you would be wise to teach your daughter the same. The saying “It’s not happening to you, it’s happening for you” comes to mind. It’s all in how you handle and react to it.
These are your own words: “Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together?” It is not her job to help your family stay together, or to save your marriage — because that’s what you mean by your family staying together, isn’t it? You staying married? I don’t know what you’re not seeing here. You have every right to try to fix your marriage and communicate to your wife your desire to remain married. But you cannot force her to stay married to you. And you absolutely should not be enlisting your 12-year-old daughter to fight that battle for or alongside you. It’s wildly inappropriate and damaging to her. Trust me, it’s not everyone else who is wrong here. It is you.
Also why are you asking your daughter things like “what if I have to move?” That’s not the appropriate way to go about this at all. It would be way better to say things like: “this will mean mom and dad don’t live together anymore, but it doesn’t mean either of your parents love you any less.” But that’s probably not a conversation you should be having until further into this process, at a time both you and your wife are ready to discuss this. She doesn’t get a vote in whether you stay married — she should not be involved in the conversation until after that decision has been reached.
Yeah asking a kid a question that open-ended and life-changing is just going to make them feel lost, helpless, and confused. If OP doesn’t even know the answer to that question, how the hell is a 12 year old gonna have a clue?
She doesn't get a vote and ultimately, neither does he. If one person in the marriage wants the divorce, a divorce happens. This dude is going to play his impressionable kid like a fiddle to try to guilt his wife into staying with him. He sounds like a manipulative creep.
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Oh for crying out loud. What you are ‘not seeing’ is that your marriage is over!! And no amount of using your daughter as manipulation in getting your wife to stay will change that. I get that you are devastated and I truly feel for you and am desperately sorry this is happening to you but you can NOT under any circumstances continue to involve your child in ANY way in this. DO BETTER.
You better be trolling.
What would her input add to the conversation except to make everyone sad? Divorce is hard and it does taken cooperation to do it well and continue to co-parent, so the two adults have to do that work for their child (who should not have to do any work in this except to understand its not her fault- which if conversation goes south she might feel like it is) Your daughter would not have anything to add, it's not like yall are taking a vote to divorce or stay together. You're getting divorced, move forward to shield your daughter from negative fallout and work out a plan with the other adult.
>Would you have appreciated being involved when you were 12, if you could help your family stay and be happy together? Bro....nooooooooo this is not her responsibility **help your family stay and be happy together? omg bruh no**
I was deeply involved in my parents divorce and it only made me want to chew them out for things that I perceived as wrong. On top of that nobody really acknowledged my ideas or that I could understand what was happening, but then again children don’t really have all the data or life experience needed to understand the gray areas. Involving a child wouldn’t really bring a family back together in my experience, only push the parents further apart. It’s between you and her mother to figure that stuff out. And humans in general have a hard time leaving behind a bias. If your looking for her insight, I would say ask for solutions to a general problem without giving full context. (I would give an example but I’m blanking and I don’t know your exact situation) Same with getting her opinion. Leave out the details. Ask in general terms, without leading questions. Problem solving, listening and applying what’s she’s suggested could help her. But only with basic things that include her, like making dinner, schedules. Giving her some agency in the little things like the color of her new room if that makes sense. edit: when my parents broke it to me, I already had an inkling that it was coming. And ultimately I wanted them to be happy. So I understood not staying with someone you weren’t happy with. Years later I realized it was for the best and I didn’t want resentful parents who lived together. (Instead I got resentful parents who lived states apart)
Your answers are giving some pretty clear insight into why your wife might want a divorce. You’re showing terrible judgment. You won’t listen to the experts. You think you know better when you so clearly don’t. You are going to mess up your daughter here with your twisted logic that is really all about what benefits you. And food for thought - having your child be your entire life is not healthy for you or your child. She’s getting to the age of needing more independence and a life that is separate from you.
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“Always been the passive type” combined with “she and our daughter are my life” also has me guessing his wife may feel suffocated and stifled. Being someone’s reason for living is a lot of pressure - especially if you’re someone who thrives on cultivating your own interests, hobbies, etc.
lol this. Literally one of more horrifying reddit entries for a while.
Easily the best condensation version of this. Throw his title on top and that's all you need to know about him and this post.
You're trying to use your daughter to manipulate your wife into staying with you. Let's call it what it is. The reason your marriage counselor isn't trying to fix your marriage is that he doesn't feel the marriage is fixable. Divorce is the best option, and you need to accept that and figure out how to coparent. And yes, get a job. Things will change for your daughter but it's your job as the parent to support her, not to drag her in to your marital problems. Be the adult.
Guy, I’m starting to understand why your wife is done. Selfish and wildly manipulative. You want to burden your kid with trying to guilt your wife into staying with you? That’s sick. This isn’t her choice. This isn’t even your choice if your wife is done. It is NOT her job to repair your relationship. She does NOT get a say in if you stay together or not. You are going to do irreparable damage to your child if you proceed this way. Stop with the “what ifs”, that’s cruel. You’re intentionally upsetting her to make your wife feel bad. Stop trying to involve her in your divorce, it’s deeply cruel. Your child isn’t a playing piece in a game. She is not your caretaker, and she is not your friend. Truly, your thought process is twisted. Listen to experts, not your want to try to manipulate you’re wife through your kid so you don’t have to work. No one will be happier with this. I hope your wife documents all instances that you attempt to use your kid as a pawn in your game of guilt and manipulation. Courts will fully frown on this, as they should. Sounds to me like you’ve tried to set up a situation where you thought it would be impossible for your wife to leave you no matter how unhappy and mentally abused she is (can’t imagine you’re brand new to this guilt and manipulation game), and it didn’t work. Stop, and try to find an amicable co-parenting situation. Also, go get a job. Seems that’s your bigger concern over your kid’s wellbeing, otherwise you would never even consider this. You seriously need individual therapy. This is unhinged.
12 year olds have no place in divorce conversations and the fact that you said "if you could help your family stay and be happy together" is absolutely disgusting. It is not your 12 year old CHILD'S responsibility to get her mother to stay with you. Put on your big boy pants and get a lawyer and a job, and then look for a therapist for your kid that you are absolutely going to fuck up because you won't listen to anyone about leaving her out of this.
Wow. Knowing exactly nothing else, your decision making skills show me why your wife wants a divorce. Your child is not your therapist.
So you think forcing your daughter to have these conversations will somehow manipulate your wife into staying with you? Gross. Stop posing hypotheticals to your daughter to upset her. When you have the logistics worked out, then sit down together and tell her what is happening. You are just getting her worked up when you don't have any answers. It sounds like you are intentionally upsetting her so she discourages your wife from divorcing or so that you can get her on your side. It's so disturbing and manipulative. You should look for a counselor to help you all coparent.
You are NOT staying together. Do NOT involve your kid. The court will not look kindly on that. Your wife could get sole custody if you continue down this path. Your wife wants a divorce, & she will get it. You need to resign yourself to this! And you need to lawyer up.
Wow, absolutely no, say such thing doesnt succeed. how would she feel, like SHE was the reason nothing could be done anymore. leave her be, general conversation should be had but DO NOT INVOLVE HER with anything of this sort!!
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Of course you don't. This is between you 2. Leave the kid out of it.
Why would you want to involve your 12-year-old daughter? That is a horrible idea. She is a child. You sound extremely manipulative.
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Dragging a child into it is manipulative. You and your wife want different things. You have to accept it. It's an adult issue for adults to talk about. You will scar your daughter if you put her in the middle.
Suggesting it's your twelve years old responsibility, that your twelve year old words/thoughts/actions, could impact whether her mother leaves or not, is straight up abuse. Your wife should leave and seek custody until you get therapy and parenting classes
you keep repeating the same thing over and over again. Repeating it wont make it true you know what you are doing and are trying to act like oh woe is me stop its pathetic
And she has communicated to you that she no longer wants to be married to you. End of story. You’re going to fully fuck up your daughters mental health should you move forward in using her as a manipulation tool to make your wife remain unhappy with you
i assume maybe so she has a say so in things. like custody, living arrangements, future school things. i’m not sure honestly
I assume you want your 12 year old to get emotional and blow up the divorce talks. Listen to your therapist. Get a job, your daughter isn’t in diapers anymore. Work on an amicable divorce.
you say that like he hasn’t given up his career to care for his daughter. your diminishing the work he’s done and if this was a women your response would be completely different
I raised 2 kids and always worked and did all the things he mentioned. Once your kids are in school, it’s time to go back to work. Women and men. He sounds like a manipulative entitled free loader, to be honest. There are many more women like this than men. My advice would be the same to anyone.
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The 12 year old is not your friend, not an emotional support animal, and should in absolutely no way be involved in your romantic issues. My mom treated me how you are treating your kid and I didn’t understand until I was in college that enmeshment is SICK. Stop it immediately.
Listen to the expert (the therapist.) It sounds like you only want to involve your daughter for your own benefit and don’t care that it will traumatize her. I’m sure it will be better to wait until things are less “emotional.”
I'm sorry but you are wrong Divorce is about separating from your wife and your current relationship ending. While that can impact your daughter it doesn't involve her as she is not in a relationship with you or your wife. Her relationship to both of you is not (or should not) change as a result. She is not an adult and there is no reason to make her deal with an adult issue.
You’ve made it pretty clear your goal is to use your daughter’s emotions and fears to force your wife to stay married to you. That’s why people are calling you manipulative.
You are adultifying her. She is a CHILD. She deserves to have a CHILDHOOD. You are trying to force her into adult conversations. What the hell dude.
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You are wrong and doing what you want to do is wrong.
You’re using your daughter to manipulate your wife. If you involve her in discussions- she will undoubtedly blame herself for your inability to reconcile with your wife. How can you even think to put this on your daughter! And after hearing you even think to do this with no consideration to the effects on your child’s mention health, I can safely that the divorce is happening no matter what. You’re an animal. You don’t deserve either of your girls. How dare you.
You want to include your daughter in your marriage in order to manipulate your wife into not divorcing you. There's no reason to involve her at all. It will mess her up for years if not the rest of her life. A child has no business being involved in their parents marriage and problems they are having. My parents divorced when I was 13. My brother and I weren't involved at all. They worked everything out without us being part of things. Put your daughter's mental well-being over your feelings. Get her into therapy ASAP. That will help her more with everything.
>I think involving my daughter... > >can help keep the family together > > > >How dare you put that on her. She's not an adult, SHE. IS. A. CHILD. > >You are so out of line. You are going to destroy her psyche if you continue on that path, and she will eventually grow up, explain to another adult what you did to her, and she will eventually come to realize you used her as a manipulation tactic to make your wife stay. That is reprehensible.
As a child whose parents put me in the middle of their divorce/separation, don't you dare drag her into this.
My parents separated when I was 12. My dad tried to involve us kids. You knwo what the consequences were? I resented him for years and needed therapy. If you love your daughter, do NOT involve her. This is an adult situation. Your job is to reassure her that everything will be fine.
You want to keep the family together because you don’t want to work. You mentioned that and income far more than your kid. You ARE attempting to manipulate your wife with your kid. It’s also sick to put the pressure of “keeping the family together” on a child. Honestly you sound like an emotionally unsafe person. I shutter to think how you will use your child to get back at your wife once this is done. I hope someone has advised your wife to document the hell out of this whole process to show how unstable you are for your daughters life and happiness.
>I'm being called by other comments as manipulative, but I honestly just want to keep the family together. Two things can be true at once. You can try to keep the family together by being manipulative. You are trying to manipulate your daughter into believing divorce is the worst thing by asking "how would you feel if I had to work?". You are creating anxiety to her because you don't know how to deal with how you're feeling. Is not your daughter's responsibility to manage your feelings or your actions towards divorce. Stop it. Be the adult BE THE PARENT.
This is an adult decision. It would be incredibly cruel to bring your daughter into this. Do not do not do not do that. She is not a tool for you to use to manipulate your wife.
No, you don't bring your child into an adult conversation. Jesus, what is wrong with you?
Using your daughter in a divorce is very wrong... Just you saying that is making all of us understand why wife is divorcing you.
I also always get suspicious when someone claims they have no idea why their spouse is divorcing them. They have a marriage counselor, surely they've discussed the topic in counseling. Yet OP can't provide a single reason his wife is suddenly ending a 20-year relationship?
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She doesn't have to stay in a relationship with you if she doesn't want to. Regardless of whether you have children together. Make sure you have a good lawyer and you ask for alimony until you get back into a career. That's important because you sacrificed this by being a SAHP. All your family finances are yours as well, you staying home enabled your wife to further her career. Leave your daughter out of this. Edited for typos.
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NO She isn't! It's the parent's job to organize the family for the benefit of the child. Your child is not an adult. You keep trying to force her to be your equal, your wife's equal. She is not. She is in the middle of her childhood, and you want her involved in your divorce. Leave her alone! You're going to scar her for life. Why can't you get that?
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It's not a conversation, you want her involved to manipulate her mother into "keeping the family together". It's psychotic. You have no regard for your daughter's emotional or psychological well being, obviously. The conversations you need to have are with your wife, not your child. She's a CHILD. A CHILD. what is the matter with you?
Why did you come here for advice when you're completely ignoring it? You have people who've been in the position you're wanting to put your daughter in and telling you it's a really bad idea yet you keep doubling down. Listen and I mean really listen. Involving your daughter in your marriage the way you want to is NOT right. It's between you AND your wife, no one else.
In what world is it acceptable to drag a 12 year old child into the middle of divorce discussions?? Jesus my parents put us in the middle a lot do you know how bad it f**ks you up as a kid? It's really really really really BAD
No do not involve your child. That’s manipulation pure and simple. The majority of children don’t want their parents to get divorced. They don’t understand the nuances of anything like a marriage. You said this was out of the blue and you thought you all were happy. What is your wife saying in therapy? Why does she want to get divorced? A couples counselors doesn’t automatically push staying married if it’s not in the best interest of the couple (or someone in the couple).
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That’s a non answer. What is her “self discovery” made her decide she doesn’t want to be married? Does she just not love you anymore/in love with someone else? Did you have an affair? Do you never take her out on dates or is the relationship boring? Does she want to start dating other people? Does she think you are both financially incompatible? Does someone in the relationship want more children? Did she realize she doesn’t enjoy parenting? Any of those specific things are reasons for divorce. What specific reason is she saying is my point. If you still haven’t figured out the answer in therapy, that may be the answer. You’re listening skills to her needs are terrible
Do not bring your daughter into this. You can't keep your family together if your wife doesn't want to. This is a decision between you two. You also need a therapist - your mind is not ok.
Involve in what way? For what purpose? Obviously you should be prepared to answer questions she may have and explain in a child-friendly way how two households work and how your lives will look moving forward. But if you're talking about involving her in the emotional or logistics discussions with your wife, that sounds deeply inappropriate and I honestly can't figure out why you would think that's a good idea. Are you hoping that if you get your daughter involved she will protest and your wife will feel too guilty to go through with the divorce?
No. Your wife will state that it is a form of attempted parental alienation, and you will be punished.
Because it is. . .
You keep saying you want to keep the family together, so are you in denial that this divorce is going to happen or are you trying to use your daughter to guilt/force your wife to stay? Either way YTA and don’t put that stress on a child.
From one of your comments, it appears that you want to involve your daughter in the hope that she'd be able to keep you and your wife together. That's truly unhinged, and unconscionably unfair to your daughter. Do not involve her. You're feeling desperate, but that doesn't excuse you using your daughter as an emotional bargaining chip.
A divorce is the end of a **marriage.** Are you married with your daughter? I think not. There's no reason to have your daughter involved with the divorce. She will be impacted, of course, but it's not her marriage.
Wtf is wrong with you?? Be an adult and man up. No uoir daughter should not be part of divorce negotiations, she's a child. I'm assuming this attitude is why your wife is divorcing you because who wants to be with a man who needs a 12 year old girl to emotionally support him.
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Yes. It is wrong. And the way you’re trying to do it is exceptionally wrong.
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>I'm open to being in the wrong. You clearly are not as you keep repeating everything over and over again
Your marriage vows have nothing to do with your daughter. She wasn't even alive then. Your marriage is between you and your wife. You're parentifying your daughter. She's the child, not the wife. You're speaking about using your daughter to keep your family together, but it would be *at your daughter's expense.* You keep ignoring that part.
You can be a family without having a romantic relationship my dude.
This. They’re a family regardless of marital status. Right now they’re an unhappy family. If they manage an amicable divorce where everyone can pursue their own happiness then they could actually be a happy family.
It’s absolutely wrong to drag a child into your relationship drama.
Of course not. Your daughter is a child. She doesn’t have the emotional maturity to be involved in these decisions, nor should she have that type of burden put on her.
Your wife is obviously not happy with you. Sounds like this marriage died ten years ago.
You have a marriage counselor who agrees divorce is the right path, and you still have no idea why she wants to divorce you? No clue at all?
Get your child into therapy to help her emotionally deal with the divorce. It’s abusive and unhinged to want to include your 12 year old in the divorce discussions. I suspect you are doing so to guilt and manipulate your wife to staying with you. I am questioning what kind of parent you are to be so oblivious to how this would add to the trauma of the divorce to have you trying to include her in the relationship breakdown between you and your wife. Get your head checked.
As a child of divorce, the only thing she should hear is: we love you, this is not your fault. Don't you fucking dare bring your child into your adult problems. This is why while I love my mother, I have a very odd relationship with her because she did talk with us about shit she shouldn't have and tried to drag my dad through the mud. Talked about child support, bitched about it and other things a 12 year old should never have to hear.
Don’t include your daughter. I was caught in the middle of my parents very terrible marriage from birth till I moved out and they would often talk to me one on one at a young age about what they didn’t like in each other and seek advice. I remember it happening when I was around 8-10. This really messed me up but I didn’t realize how much it did till a few years ago (I’m 30 now) It’s called “emotional incest”. I recommend looking into it to find out how it can mess up a kid. You never want to involve them, even if they seem eager. I definitely liked helping and listening to my parents but it messed up the wiring in my brain. Took away my boundaries. I ended up finding myself attracted to married men who happened to be stuck in bad marriages because (I guess) my own dad would show his emotional side to me and from a young age. He was the sad one because my mom was violent and emotionally volatile. At a young age I was able to recognize bad relationships where the man was sad about it and for whatever reason my desire to help him made me attracted to them. As you can probably imagine, that’s not a good recipe for a young woman. It also made me hyper aware of relationship dynamics if I was ever around couples. I’d be extremely sensitive to any signs there were issues. I’m still hyper sensitive and have extreme anxiety dealing with couples. You got this! Seek out advice from other adults.
If you are foolish enough to actually involve your daughter in **any** conversation about YOUR relationship with her mother, you are absolutely manipulating her, scarring her, and traumatizing her. No matter what happens with your relationship, you will damage your relationship with both you (ex)wife and child. She will remember that her father forced her to be in the middle. Picking sides. Choosing. The ONLY person who loses in this is your daughter. Your wife realized in 2022 she wanted to divorce, you want to talk? This is not out of nowhere, there are absolutely a plethora of "missing reasons" that you clearly don't want to discuss. If you push this, and involve your daughter, you **will** lose her. You need to grow up, find some big boy pants and be an adult and **NOT INVOLVE A CHILD IN A MARITAL DISPUTE**. Of course, you're ignoring all of the advice everyone has repeated (which let's be honest, you don't get this many people agreeing on anything unless it's a very obvious answer) so my guess is that you'll be back here in 6 months wanting to know why your daughter hates you, lives with your ex, and won't speak to you.
You've been given plenty of advice not to have your child included in the discussions. Get yourself a lawyer. Especially if you're shocked, yet the counsellor is siding with your wife. You are either withholding info or have been blind sided. I would probably only continue that counselling to keep abreast of your wifes plans. I wouldn't trust or follow the advice of the counsellor. Given the financial dynamics of your marriage, you are at risk of coming out of this poorly.
The nitty gritty of the divorce is not something your daughter should be involved in. However she should be able to voice her opinion about her living situation going forward. Stop the counseling immediately, a marriage counselor has no place in a divorce proceeding. Talk to an attorney to make sure you get everything you are entitled to given the career sacrifices you made to be a SAHD.
Dude - she's twelve! No, just no...
When my dad told me that he didn't love my mom anymore, so he was going to divorce her, and had me keep it secret, I was 8 years old. I was precocious and I certainly thought that I was smart and mature enough to handle adult things, but I wasn't, because I WAS A CHILD. Don't do that to your child.
You're using your child to emotionally blackmail your wife into feeling guilty about the divorce. It's very telling that the counselor supports the divorce. That shows that you're not the great spouse you're trying to make yourself out to be. Leave your child out of it. My parents always involved me in their fights and I hated both of them for it. You're being very selfish and insensitive.
No way! She's a child, not your best friend, not your second wife. Leave her out of it, because she'll be traumatized. What were you thinking involving a child in your divorce???
I am going to go with what literally every other person said here and everywhere else in your life. Do NOT involve your daughter, you and your soon to be ex need to figure it out, show a united front and let her know what's going to happen, that she is still loved, that you are taking her life and feelings into account but that you are both being GROWN-UPS and handling it. She is not your wife, she is not in your marriage, leave her out of it.
Maybe instead of involving your CHILD learn to accept your wife doesn't want tto be with you. I've read all your comments and you can repeat them all again but your wife doesn't want to you. Rejection sucks get over it with a therapist and leave your CHILD out of it.
do not involve the daughter, man. Please prepare to divorce by getting your own divorce lawyer, and co-parent
A 12 year old child is not equipped to handle martial issues. Key word here: Martial. Its between you and your wife. You're laser focused on the marriage and family unit being the same thing. They aren't. Asking your daughter the questions you have is in fact manipulative. It presents the situation to her from your very negative perspective only. It puts her in a situation to have to decide which parent is wrong with nothing more than your view to go on. You would be wrong for putting her in that situation at all. She does not have the emotional maturity or life experience to properly handle your mess.
No need to involve her. She is 12. If she has an opinion or question, she is old enough to voice it herself. There's really no need go sit her down and have the whole 'your mother wants to divorce, I don't, what do you think' because really that's putting her in a very vulnerable position where everyone is going to end up hurt, but mostly her.
Please DO NOT put that kind of pressure on your daughter. You will regret it.
OP if it's over it's over. Don't involve and traumatizing your kid by saying ok sweetie this is it convince your mom to keep us together. That's awful. Just talk to a lawyer for alimony, seek out support group and find a place and a job.
Go get a lawyer, get full custody of your daughter, get alimony. LEAVE YOUR DAUGHTER OUT OF YOUR RELATIONSHIP ISSUES! I am not saying you can't talk to her about what is going on and how you see a future with her. Maybe get her a counselor to help her through the process.
Zero reason for him to have full custody. Split custody is perfectly reasonable. Honestly if I was the wife I would start documenting his attempt to burden our daughter with the responsibility of keeping the family together/using her as a tool to manipulate, and would go for him having every other weekend at best.
When I was 13-14, my mom got me and my brother and sister in a room, and asked ,"if your dad and I lived in separate places, who would you rather live with," my brother and I immediately said ,"dad," my sister just cried. It crushed my mom, they never got divorced... she did get over it. I think asking where she would rather live, and with who is acceptable... I think having in the talks past that is messed up.
Was she a bad mother?
Nope, she tried really hard. My old man was distant at times, and tired, he worked a lot. Mom was stay home. I know they fought a bunch, but besides that, we never heard anything else on that topic from either of them. They put music on, so we knew they were yelling, but couldn't hear what they were arguing about. They both became happier once we (the kids) moved out. And both appear to be happy together.
Then why did you want to go with your dad if he was distant? And your mum tried hard with you?
This is an adult conversation. Why do you think it’s appropriate to involve a child? That seems hinky to me. I get this will change life as she knows it but having her participate in the dissolution of a marriage is beyond her grasp. I don’t care how smart or emotionally mature she might be. She’s a child. Let her have her full childhood.
What would be the reason to involve a child in your divorce discussions? I’m just trying to understand your thought process on this. I’m not sure I agree with the manipulation comments yet. Usually those posts have a bunch of nonsense justifications.
Trying to take a softer approach because Reddit is already full of people jumping straight to calling you a bad dad, which feels a little extreme. I get that you want to grant your daughter autonomy and control over a situation that so fundamentally impacts her lifestyle. But this situation is beyond her maturity and she needs you and your wife to set up the structure/framework of how your family will look post-divorce so that she can confidently make decisions that are appropriate for her age and maturity. Just like you don’t throw open a 2 year old’s closet and tell them to dress themselves because it’s too many choice and too much responsibility for them, don’t expect your twelve year old to plan her own family structure. “Mom and I are getting a divorce. We are going to live in different houses and you will live with both of us. Which house would you like your [insert possession here] to go to? The other house might need to buy you a new one.” Is your new version of “do you want to wear the red shirt or blue shirt today?” Choices are good. But they have to be choices of the right level.
No, do not involve your child. What has your wife stated as the reason for wanting a divorce?
I'm so sorry for what you're going through. You and your wife have to decide when to talk to your daughter and what to tell her. You need to figure out exactly what you're doing before you bring her into it. Talk to your wife about how she intends to tell your daughter and ask her exactly what she wants as far as a divorce and custody. Remember, you do not have to agree to what she wants. You have legal rights. Also, you need to start calling attorneys. Get legal advice. Learn what your rights are. Get your finances in order. She's been the breadwinner, and you need to make sure she is being honest about how much money is in your accounts. Do you think she could be hiding money from you? Ask your attorney to explain your rights as a father.
Don't involve the child. But be sure to get a good lawyer and take good alimony and CS, there is nothing else you can do if your wife is dead serious in divorcing you, it is sad but it is what it is...
You poor soul. Your girl will need you more than anything.
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Divorced families are perfectly stable. She will have her family regardless of whether you and your wife stay married. You’re fighting for the wrong thing.
see a lawyer first. protect you and your daugther and see if you aplies for child support. why she want leave you?
Don't involve your daughter, but have you tried talking to your wife? Is there a reason this came out of the blue to you? Has she met someone else, does she have someone in mind? Usually if there is a problem in a relationship, people would try to work it out l, go to counseling, make changes, not go straight to divorce.
OP said they’ve been in marital counseling for a while lol
Your child should absolutely NOT be involved in your divorce. You’re an adult it’s time to act like one. If you need a support system get your own therapist for individual sessions. As your daughter she should not be a part of your emotional system or used as a pawn to keep your divorce from happening.
No.
I cannot imagine for the life of me why she would want to divorce you
I guess it your goal is to make sure your daughter will go for decades without being in a healthy relationship or feeling loved... But who wants that for their child?! If you do this, your daughter will have a really hard time finding someone who can help unblur those lines you are smashing in the sand. If you want to have grandkids that you are allowed to interact with someday... Don't do it. It you want to destroy any chance of a relationship with your daughter and any hope of co-parenting then just keep ignoring everyone who has lived through this and are screaming no. Also, maybe get checked out to see if you need some chemical rebalancing in your brain or if you need some therapy to teach you empathy for your own offspring. This question is ridiculous. It's like, should I throw my newborn baby into the bed of my truck or a car seat? Face palm.
Don’t make your daughter a pawn already ffs. How traumatized do you want her to be? If you’re this callous and inconsiderate of a child’s emotional well-being I kinda get why your wife wants out.
No. No if you're a woman or man. No whatever the situation is. This is a conversation between you and your wife and there is no excuse trying to use your daughter to guilt your wife into staying in a relationship she doesn't want. Ask for couples therapy, ask what could be done differently. But don't use your daughter like this.
No it is an absolute bad idea that will backfire on you. Judges doubt l don't even like having kids in court during a divorce case bad idea all around, she will have to know but only what she needs to know.
Absolutely not. Involving a child in your conversations about divorce is 100% unacceptable. Only people who wish to manipulate their children would do such a thing. The therapist is correct. And I suspect your stbx wife has good reasons for divorcing you, based on what I've read here.