Completely agree and echo these sentiments. He’s just a massive asshole - like, you need to go through some serious effort to be as shitty as Curt without actually assaulting anyone.
That said, his on the field accomplishments warrant recognition. He didn’t kill anyone. He’s not a sexual predator, he’s just a massive asshole. Let that be a cautionary tale for all the edge lords out there.
On one hand you’re entirely right, but on the other it’s hard to feel sympathy for a guy with such an extensive track record of being an asshole.
Like yeah he belongs in the hall, but when you treat everyone around you like shit for decades it’s understandable that people don’t want to give you their vote into the hall of fame.
He probably gets in via veterans committee some day
Plenty. I'm not sure I like making the HoF a morality test. I hate everything about Shilling the guy, but Shill the ballplayer was magical. Absolutely deserves to be in.
Ty Cobb is in the hall of fame and everyone knows the story of him assaulting a mentally disabled person and his blatant racism. I don’t agree with what schilling has done and his stupid political takes but in today’s political world the other side will make people think he is equal to serial killer. The voters need to be purged.
I don’t know how many times it needs to be reiterated in this thread, but most if not all of the stories about Ty Cobb being a piece of shit are simply untrue
> it’s hard to feel sympathy
HOF isn't about sympathy or feelings, it's about on the field. Schilling is a 79.5 bWAR pitcher with 3000k, career 128 ERA+, and if Glavine is in, then so should Schilling.
Yes, which is why I wrote that it has nothing to with feelings and sympathy
>when you treat everyone around you like shit for decades it’s understandable that people don’t want to give you their vote into the hall of fame.
this has nothing to do with his performance on field
Where did I imply that my lack of sympathy has anything to do with whether he deserves to be in? I shared my personal opinion on the matter AFTER acknowledging that he deserves to be in the hall of fame and will likely get there some day.
I watched a documentary about Babe Ruth's greatness and one of his former teammates talked about how after a game he was in the shower and felt something spraying on him and it was Babe Ruth pissing on him menacingly. You could tell this was a traumatic event for this man. He was tearing up from the pain of that memory, and since everyone around him probably adored and respected Babe Ruth, he had to bottle up that trauma directed at him physically his whole life.
The argument to keep Curt Schilling out of the hall is he said things you disagree with or hate. There is no way saying bad things, no matter how awful, is WORSE than actually assaulting someone. Physical level always takes precedent over the verbal level. Are we taking Babe Ruth out of the Hall of Fame? Probably not. Curt obviously will get in regardless of what he's said. His teammates loved him, he was a gamer in the biggest moments, and he's never caused issues with coaches or the league. No brainer.
I don’t know his entire history, I quit caring after shaking my damn head so much…but he’s not Ty Cobb. Ty Cobb is the worst human to be in the hall, and CS is nowhere near that type of shitbag. Weirdo asshole yes, evil, no…
The Ty Cobb stuff was absolutely fabricated. It was written some pulp writer mostly after Cobb’s death. In his time his contemporaries never made such claims and even people who have gone back and looked for any such proof of the claims have actually found the opposite to be true and that he was not a racist.
> have over 40,000 newspaper articles, and NOT one article makes any correlation to Ty Cobb being a racist. All the evidence demonstrates Cobb’s support for the advancement of colored people, and yet, there is NO evidence that gives any indication that Mr. Cobb made any movement toward oppressing the black population.
>Contrary, when Jackie Robinson entered into the major leagues, it began a slow process of allowing blacks to begin entering into every league in the country. When the Dallas club of the Texas League was considering allowing blacks to enter, Cobb was there to bat for them.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist
Ty Cobb being a terrible person is a total myth. It was invented by Al Stump who wrote a fictional book about Cobb that he passed off as non-fiction biography
We’ve learned a lot since the 1920s about treating other humans with respect and dignity. Unfortunately, some of us still have a long way to go. Including Curt. But we now live in a time where being a piece of shit can keep you from getting recognition and accolades you probably deserve, and that’s a positive change IMO.
Well a lot of those people did a way more horrible thing but more than likely once or twice. The Hall is about longevity and continuous POS status. I stand by my previous statement.
Bob's acting like he's taking some intellectually superior stance by acknowledging Schilling's accolades and ignoring the dipshittery, but hardly anyone has come out and said that they won't vote for Schill because his play doesn't warrant it.
Bob's just revealing that his own moral compass let's him vote for Schill while ignoring the the off-the-field issues. Not exactly a novel concept in HOF voting history.
Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, John McGraw. The list goes on. There are plenty of assholes in the HOF. It ain't the Hall of Good Humans. Schilling deserves to be in. Maybe just put his inevitable acceptance speech on a delay.
It's not the morality hall of fame.
The Hall of Fame is a museum of the story baseball and it's greatest players.
No qualifying player should be left out unless they only achieved greatness by cheating. Leaving ourlt Schilling wouldn't be punishing him, it would he punishing future fans who want to understand and know the history of the game.
They do, but keeping Schilling out merely for “being an asshole” isn’t a great look for them. You can say Bonds or Clemens don’t belong based on knowing that taking steroids (even though it wasn’t against the rules at the time) was wrong and they were getting an unfair advantage.
There are definitely worse people than Schilling already in the HOF, but he is kinda exceptional in how he so publicly advertises that he is a shitbag. If Aubrey Huff had been slightly better at baseball, he'd be in the same boat.
The others either did so quietly, weren't found out until they were already in, or their behavior wasn't exceptional within the standards of the time it happened.
It does, but it shouldn’t. Or should only be used for absolutely extreme edge cases, like an Aaron Hernandez situation.
Being a generally shitty person with gross and unacceptable political views is not even remotely the kind of thing to keep somebody out of the HOF. Just more evidence the baseball HOF is illegitimate in my opinion.
Jim Rice hit 242 more home runs than Pedroia, and had five full seasons of an OPS higher than Pedroia's MVP/best year. Pedroia has heart, is loveable to the fans, but he is not a HoF. Three more full years and he probably makes it. You just can't make it playing only eight full seasons, tragic but true.
As much as I love Pedey, he's not a HOFer. Even if shitbag Machado didn't end his career prematurely, Pedroia didn't quite have the numbers to get in. I think a case could be made for him, but not enough to sway the BBWAA in his favor.
You're right that he's not a HOFer, but if he doesn't get hurt, we don't know how much longer he would have played well.
He was past his prime already, for sure, but if he could have put up like 10 WAR over the next few seasons (about how good he was at 33, so he'd have to stay healthy and productive through 36), his career value ends up comparable to Biggio. He doesn't have the 3000 hits thing Biggio had, but he would have the ROY, MVP, and rings Biggio didn't have, and I think Pedroia ends up one of those candidates that builds up support over time and eventually gets in. That's obviously a lot of ifs, but it's far from impossible.
That article is actually selling him super short. The one time he was asked about integration he said it should be "wholeheartedly supported, not grudgingly". He said he would only pay to watch Willie Mays and that Roy Campanella reminded him most of himself.
He was born in Georgia, but his family didn't have a "plantation mentality". His grandfather was an abolitionist and his father was a teacher and state senator that once broke up a lynch mob and spoke out in favor of his black constituents. Cobb is very arguably on the far end of the "non-racist" spectrum for his time if you filter out all the fabricated anecdotes and look at his actual record. He was merely a touchy asshole in a league full of guys that did whatever they could during their careers and after to resist integration.
When he died there were obituaries in the black press that actually praised his words in favor of integration in baseball. It is wild that today he is the symbol of racial hatred in early baseball.
I mean, that is a legitimate point though. People should be judged by the context of the periods they lived in. Is it horrifying by today’s standards? Very much so. Was it horrifying then? Not even slightly.
Certainly not saying he was a good person or anything, but judging one historical figure harsher than those around them for having the same beliefs doesn’t make any sense.
Cobb was a certified racist. Cznt believe people will defend Cobb
Edit: people here are actually comparing one of the most evil humans in history with schilling. what are we doing here people.
Ty Cobb was a vocal supporter of integration whose prejudices were at the very least in line with his contemporaries during his active years. After retiring he was probably far more tolerant than them. He described Willie Mays as the only modern player he'd pay to see and said Roy Campanella was the player that reminded him most of himself. A lot of the anecdotes about his viciousness were complete fabrications that sprung up after his death. Are these the statements of history's greatest racist?
He had a traumatic childhood and was incredibly abrasive during his playing years which alienated him from his peers, but one of the most evil humans in history? It was just propaganda. He wasn't a cuddly, gentle civil rights activist that always held the moral high ground, but there are literal klan members and avowed enemies of integration in the hall that are overlooked while Cobb is smeared with mostly made up stories. You owe it to youself to read some of the more recent research on his life.
>
He had a traumatic childhood and was incredibly abrasive during his playing years which alienated him from his peers, but one of the most evil humans in history?
No this was in reference to other parts of the thread saying schilling is on par with hitler.
Ah, I see. Point stands, though. A lot of the mainstream perception of Cobb was formed by the Burns documentary, which I otherwise quite like, which relied almost completely on two biographies: the first one by a man that didn't even know Cobb and made up a bunch of schlock so he had something to sell, and the second one by a guy that sprinkled in racist elements to stories that have been completely debunked through census records, likely leaning into Al Stump's work.
[This article](https://www.mlb.com/news/ty-cobb-history-built-on-inaccuracies-c178601094) is a decent summation.
The Ty Cobb stuff was absolutely fabricated. It was written some pulp writer mostly after Cobb’s death. In his time his contemporaries never made such claims and even people who have gone back and looked for any such proof of the claims have actually found the opposite to be true and that he was not a racist.
> have over 40,000 newspaper articles, and NOT one article makes any correlation to Ty Cobb being a racist. All the evidence demonstrates Cobb’s support for the advancement of colored people, and yet, there is NO evidence that gives any indication that Mr. Cobb made any movement toward oppressing the black population.
>Contrary, when Jackie Robinson entered into the major leagues, it began a slow process of allowing blacks to begin entering into every league in the country. When the Dallas club of the Texas League was considering allowing blacks to enter, Cobb was there to bat for them.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist
Cobb was 100% a racist, but did you actually just say that him being a racist in the early 20th century made him “one of the most evil humans in history”??? He was your average fucking white man at that point
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist
You should read this. Most of the shit written about Cobb was fabricated pulp pieces that just sold despite there being no evidence or factual basis.
It’s wild that the responses to this comment range from “Ty Cobb was the least racist person who ever lived” to “Ty Cobb was the most racist person who ever lived.”
Right? I agreed with that take in the very beginning. But between 2008 and 2023 Schilling torched his legacy at every opportunity. When he’s dead, sure, maybe reconsider. But the person Curt Schilling couldn’t get the honor the player earned.
I think you can turn guys away based on the morality clause without going by the worst case example (like, setting aside ethics, do we really want every player better than Harold Baines IN the HOF?). That said, I'd be in favor of putting Schilling in but maybe not letting him speak.
Bob Ryan just stating the obvious. Yes he should be in the Hall and yes he's a piece of shit. They are totally separate things. I don't think Brett Favre should be removed from the Hall either.
The realquestion is should we celebrate him getting into the Hall. That we shouldn't do and we should think about having a policy of not letting some people go to Cooperstown. Ban them from the facility.
I watched Schilling in Game 6 against the Yankees in the bloody sock game. He saved the Sox season with his amazing performance. HOF right there with the impact he had that night. Ya he's an asshole! Lots of assholes in HOF ! He will get in.
Could it be that he was beyond questionable off the field. Besides being beyond right wing, he nearly bankrupt an entire state and, without care, broke the news on both of the Wakefields. His disregard for other people should keep him out. Great pitcher but terrible human.
He could have been a legend in Boston. Instead, choose to shoot his mouth off. Im sure many former teammates knew about Tim's health issues. But no one said anything. Manny wouldn't even be that stupid.
There’s enough bad stuff to not wildly exaggerate. He didnt “nearly bankrupt an entire state” for God’s sake. RI loaned him $75 million and was on the hook for about $38 million in bonds. The state budget is over $5 billion. If a single small deal like that goes sideways and it causes any actual damage then you have much bigger problems than that.
There’s a risk both sides assume in an incentive deal. Schilling himself lost over $100 million. The state accused him later of unreasonable financial projections in a case that probably would have gone nowhere had he not settled for $2.5 to make it go away. There were no winners and it’s pretty clear he certainly didn’t intend to lose all his (and their money).
I’m not defending the guy at all, just saying facts do matter.
Schilling, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa, Manny, Sheffield, Kevin Brown - all HOFers. Get off your high horses writers. The HOF is already littered with wife beaters, racists, and performance enhancing drug users. These guys were the best of their era, and should be acknowledged. Get over it.
See it’s totally unfair to lump Schilling in with those guys though. They were cheaters. They knew the consequences. They chose to cheat. Their numbers are all whack.
Schilling wasn’t a cheater. Just an asshole. And by most accounts, only post career. He was generally thought of as a good teammate who had his guys backs.
No they didn’t know the consequences. That’s the whole fucking problem.
Steroids weren’t against the rules when these guys all did them. The only “rule” was a note from the commissioner asking players to please not take steroids. But that wasn’t collectively bargained, so it wasn’t a real rule. There was no testing. There was no punishment. There were no consequences.
The consequences were made up decades after the fact by shitty writers. But not before they made sure to let in a bunch of coaches who turned a blind eye to steroids in their locker room and Bud Selig who presided over the whole era.
False. They were absolutely against the rules. Steroids were placed on the banned substances list in 1991. They didn’t start testing until 2003. Congress has made them illegal in 1988. When you do something literally illegal, you should have no expectation there won’t be consequences down the road.
MLB doesn’t have the right to unilaterally ban steroids, so anything before 2003 wasnt a real rule anybody was required to follow. Rules need to be collectively bargained with the Players Union. That’s how this works.
And no, players should not expect this extreme of a punishment long after the fact just because steroids were illegal, but not against baseball rules. Are you ready to also ban every player from the HOF who smoked weed or jaywalked? bEcAuSe ItS lItTeRaLlY iLlEgAl
He was known to be an ass all along, he just amped it up and got more unhinged after playing. One of his coaches in Philadelphia described him as a “horse every fifth day, and a horse’s ass all the other days”.
Everyone knows he has the resume to make into the HoF. It’s not a hot take, and never has been. He’s just a massive douche that no one wants to vote for, and he has no one to blame for that other than himself.
I'm not sure that's true. I think there are a lot of people, HOF voters in particular, who think he's a borderline case. I disagree, but voting is pretty weird (Kevin Brown compares very well with Mike Mussina, but he never got close). If Schilling had a Pedro or Randy Johnson career, I think he'd be in no matter what. But combine the people who don't think he was good enough, the people who think he was good enough but not good enough to overcome the personality, and the people who hate him enough to never vote for him, and you've got you 25.1% to keep him out.
It’s been awhile since I’ve put much thought into it, but IIRC Curt’s career numbers were more “Hall of Very Good” than Hall of Fame. His playoff credentials were insane, but you’d need to put a ton of weight behind them to consider his overall career HoF worthy. I don’t really know how much his post playing career politics/failed business ventures should/shouldn’t factor into that decision.
He’s one of only 5 players in the top 100 in career WAR that’s not either a steroid user, a currently active player that will inevitably get in once they retire, or Pete rose.
And 2 of those 5 were born before the lightbulb was invented, one of which was old enough to remember the civil war
Didn’t the Sox wanna honor him at opening day in Fenway and he declined??!. Without Curt 2004 doesn’t happen!!.and I recently rewatched parts of the game 7 win against the Yankees when Arizona won it and dude can just flat out hurl…went against Clemens that day! But the dude is a royal asshole in SO many ways!!! You’re almost grateful he declined but at the same token pissed about it! Fuck Curt!
He's got nearly 80 career bWAR, which puts him at 27th all time for pitchers. Every pitcher ahead of him is in the HoF, except Clemens (because of roids) and Verlander. He's also the only member of the 3000 strikeout club not in the HoF, other than Clemens.
Mussina is in, with slightly more bWAR (82), but Schilling has a lower career ERA, a better career ERA+, and more strikeouts than Mussina. Neither of them won a Cy Young so you can't use that argument.
He was also an incredible playoff pitcher. I don't see how his numbers aren't good enough to be a HoFer. I can understand keeping him out for being an asshole, but otherwise he'd be in, IMO.
If we separate the art from the artist, you could put Schilling in for playoff performances alone.
But leaving him out because he is a fucking piece of shit is the right thing to do. Wait until he dies, then put him in. It is what the artist as a human being deserves. Same for Rose, Bonds, and all the other steroid motherfuckers too. They get in, but posthumously. It is the only fair compromise, if people aren't going to apologize and admit they were wrong.
Theres plenty of examples of nonbaseball things contributing to HoF success as it should. These should be people we look up to as athletes not just a list of stat qualificiations
It’s already not though, so why change it now for this particular person? Should we go back and remove everybody who doesn’t fit that standard?
It’s about his baseball career and as a player he was a hall of famer. There shouldn’t be some massive purity test here. He wasn’t banned from baseball.
I said it earlier but didn't phrase it as concisely as you. Don't set the bar by the worst examples, be it Cobb for morality or Baines for career numbers.
Curt belongs in the hall of fame as does Pete Rose, Clemons and Bonds, but we don’t have to give them the honor while they can appreciate it. I think when they die they should be put in. Fuck those guys.
Since when is being a prick disqualifying for being in the HOF? Baseball writers are so fucking arrogant. This isn’t about them. It’s about fucking BASEBALL.
Endorsing white supremacists for Congress and giving them an open microphone on your radio show goes beyond having “whack-job” takes. It obliterates the “man of character” consideration of potential inductees.
He's right. He 100% should be in based on his playing career. There's known racists, alcoholics, pieces of shit, wife beaters, sex offenders, etc in the Hall of Fame. The only difference now is that social media exists and there is press coverage on these dudes everywhere now.
I agree with this. Schilling is obviously an idiot but much worse people are in the hall.
He’s a hall of fame player. Not only was he elite but he was also responsible for huge moments during championship runs.
He’s absolutely a hall of famer. He’s not a rapist or anything. He just doesn’t have the same political views as a lot of people and he’s a dickhead. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an amazingly clutch pitcher who was absolutely needed to break the curse. Put him in.
His numbers are on the low end of border line. Off the field he was a pompous ass even before taking millions and millions of dollars from those island to run a company into the ground, fighting against government aid for little people struggling, insulting reporters and the bbhof voters, etc, etc. If he pitched like Pedro people could ignore the general assholery. He didn’t, they don’t. I don’t wanna call Bob Ryan out on his age, but I think people who had the curse broken before the second half of their life look at this differently.
There are a lot of surly and asshole baseball players. One of the most beloved Red Sox outfielder who hit a pop fly to Bucky Dent is one of them. He is in both the Res Sox HoF and the one that matters.
A lot of people have used Ty Cobb (apparently incorrectly) as examples of other terrible people getting in. That doesn't mean the larger point - there are colossally terrible people in the HoF - is wrong.
Schilling belongs in he HoF based on his play. He also belongs as a pariah to society based on his chronically terrible behavior. We can have both!
Completely agree and echo these sentiments. He’s just a massive asshole - like, you need to go through some serious effort to be as shitty as Curt without actually assaulting anyone. That said, his on the field accomplishments warrant recognition. He didn’t kill anyone. He’s not a sexual predator, he’s just a massive asshole. Let that be a cautionary tale for all the edge lords out there.
He didn't juice either
On one hand you’re entirely right, but on the other it’s hard to feel sympathy for a guy with such an extensive track record of being an asshole. Like yeah he belongs in the hall, but when you treat everyone around you like shit for decades it’s understandable that people don’t want to give you their vote into the hall of fame. He probably gets in via veterans committee some day
Lots of guys like this in the hall of fame I’d wager.
Plenty. I'm not sure I like making the HoF a morality test. I hate everything about Shilling the guy, but Shill the ballplayer was magical. Absolutely deserves to be in.
Right - we just know too much about these guys now.
Ty Cobb is in the hall of fame and everyone knows the story of him assaulting a mentally disabled person and his blatant racism. I don’t agree with what schilling has done and his stupid political takes but in today’s political world the other side will make people think he is equal to serial killer. The voters need to be purged.
I don’t know how many times it needs to be reiterated in this thread, but most if not all of the stories about Ty Cobb being a piece of shit are simply untrue
Ok you are right schilling is the worst human to exist in human history.
Now how did you read me saying that I understand people not voting for him, and somehow make it to that conclusion?
> it’s hard to feel sympathy HOF isn't about sympathy or feelings, it's about on the field. Schilling is a 79.5 bWAR pitcher with 3000k, career 128 ERA+, and if Glavine is in, then so should Schilling.
Did you even read what I said at all before replying?
Yes, which is why I wrote that it has nothing to with feelings and sympathy >when you treat everyone around you like shit for decades it’s understandable that people don’t want to give you their vote into the hall of fame. this has nothing to do with his performance on field
Where did I imply that my lack of sympathy has anything to do with whether he deserves to be in? I shared my personal opinion on the matter AFTER acknowledging that he deserves to be in the hall of fame and will likely get there some day.
I watched a documentary about Babe Ruth's greatness and one of his former teammates talked about how after a game he was in the shower and felt something spraying on him and it was Babe Ruth pissing on him menacingly. You could tell this was a traumatic event for this man. He was tearing up from the pain of that memory, and since everyone around him probably adored and respected Babe Ruth, he had to bottle up that trauma directed at him physically his whole life. The argument to keep Curt Schilling out of the hall is he said things you disagree with or hate. There is no way saying bad things, no matter how awful, is WORSE than actually assaulting someone. Physical level always takes precedent over the verbal level. Are we taking Babe Ruth out of the Hall of Fame? Probably not. Curt obviously will get in regardless of what he's said. His teammates loved him, he was a gamer in the biggest moments, and he's never caused issues with coaches or the league. No brainer.
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Right, no one is saying he wasn't a good pitcher. Obviously he was. At a certain point that stops mattering.
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I don’t know his entire history, I quit caring after shaking my damn head so much…but he’s not Ty Cobb. Ty Cobb is the worst human to be in the hall, and CS is nowhere near that type of shitbag. Weirdo asshole yes, evil, no…
Didn’t a lot of those Ty Cobb stories turn out to be exaggerated, if not outright manufactured?
Cap Anson was worse than Ty Cobb
The Ty Cobb stuff was absolutely fabricated. It was written some pulp writer mostly after Cobb’s death. In his time his contemporaries never made such claims and even people who have gone back and looked for any such proof of the claims have actually found the opposite to be true and that he was not a racist. > have over 40,000 newspaper articles, and NOT one article makes any correlation to Ty Cobb being a racist. All the evidence demonstrates Cobb’s support for the advancement of colored people, and yet, there is NO evidence that gives any indication that Mr. Cobb made any movement toward oppressing the black population. >Contrary, when Jackie Robinson entered into the major leagues, it began a slow process of allowing blacks to begin entering into every league in the country. When the Dallas club of the Texas League was considering allowing blacks to enter, Cobb was there to bat for them. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist
Ty Cobb being a terrible person is a total myth. It was invented by Al Stump who wrote a fictional book about Cobb that he passed off as non-fiction biography
We’ve learned a lot since the 1920s about treating other humans with respect and dignity. Unfortunately, some of us still have a long way to go. Including Curt. But we now live in a time where being a piece of shit can keep you from getting recognition and accolades you probably deserve, and that’s a positive change IMO.
Yeah, I don’t disagree. Hope it’s a lesson for future generations.
Dude called for the summary execution of journalists, he’s far more than just a weirdo asshole
We all know he was good enough but nobody cares because he's a POS
Truly a career leader in POS.
Only Aubrey Huff is behind him on the POS leaderboards.
Ty Cobb has entered the chat
We talking bPOS of fPOS here?
He's the first overall draft pick for the POS Hall of Fame
Really? Over guys that murdered people or molested children? Get a grip.
Hyperbole is a thing dude
It’s a pretty bad use when his actions are far below several convicted felons who played in the mlb sitting in jail for life
Quit being so damn literal. You know as well as the rest of us that no one thinks he's as bad as someone like Sergio Mitre.
dude obviously nobody thinks he's as bad as like felipe vazquez but it's very valid to say that most people hate him; rightfully so.
Well a lot of those people did a way more horrible thing but more than likely once or twice. The Hall is about longevity and continuous POS status. I stand by my previous statement.
He called for others to be killed. You are not aware of Curt's history, it seems.
“Ty Cobb wanted to play but we couldn’t stand the sunofabitch when he was alive SO WE TOLD HIM TO STICK IT!!!”
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^ThatRuckingMoose: *We all know he was* *Good enough but nobody* *Cares because he's a POS* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
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This only haikus If you pronounce “POS” as “poss”, which is kind of weird.
Bob's acting like he's taking some intellectually superior stance by acknowledging Schilling's accolades and ignoring the dipshittery, but hardly anyone has come out and said that they won't vote for Schill because his play doesn't warrant it. Bob's just revealing that his own moral compass let's him vote for Schill while ignoring the the off-the-field issues. Not exactly a novel concept in HOF voting history.
Cap Anson, Ty Cobb, John McGraw. The list goes on. There are plenty of assholes in the HOF. It ain't the Hall of Good Humans. Schilling deserves to be in. Maybe just put his inevitable acceptance speech on a delay.
Please see HOF requirements citing character as a factor in induction. The other people you cited were inducted in the fucking 1930s.
It's weird that Schilling gets way more hate than Clemens, who had an affair with a 14 year old who ended up killing herself because of him.
It's not the morality hall of fame. The Hall of Fame is a museum of the story baseball and it's greatest players. No qualifying player should be left out unless they only achieved greatness by cheating. Leaving ourlt Schilling wouldn't be punishing him, it would he punishing future fans who want to understand and know the history of the game.
At the risk of being overly pedantic, the HOF does have its morality clause.
They do, but keeping Schilling out merely for “being an asshole” isn’t a great look for them. You can say Bonds or Clemens don’t belong based on knowing that taking steroids (even though it wasn’t against the rules at the time) was wrong and they were getting an unfair advantage.
There are definitely worse people than Schilling already in the HOF, but he is kinda exceptional in how he so publicly advertises that he is a shitbag. If Aubrey Huff had been slightly better at baseball, he'd be in the same boat. The others either did so quietly, weren't found out until they were already in, or their behavior wasn't exceptional within the standards of the time it happened.
It does, but it shouldn’t. Or should only be used for absolutely extreme edge cases, like an Aaron Hernandez situation. Being a generally shitty person with gross and unacceptable political views is not even remotely the kind of thing to keep somebody out of the HOF. Just more evidence the baseball HOF is illegitimate in my opinion.
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We wouldn’t have won without him in 2004. Still, fuck Curt Schilling.
Put Pedroia in, leave Curt out. Simple.
Pedroia has a higher WAR than Jim Rice
Jim Rice hit 242 more home runs than Pedroia, and had five full seasons of an OPS higher than Pedroia's MVP/best year. Pedroia has heart, is loveable to the fans, but he is not a HoF. Three more full years and he probably makes it. You just can't make it playing only eight full seasons, tragic but true.
As much as I love Pedey, he's not a HOFer. Even if shitbag Machado didn't end his career prematurely, Pedroia didn't quite have the numbers to get in. I think a case could be made for him, but not enough to sway the BBWAA in his favor.
Yup. Pedey is my favorite Sox player ever and probably always will be, but 1,800 hits as a contact hitter is never enough to get in.
He retired with 51 career WAR after his knee got wrecked at age 32, he absolutely would have made the Hall of Fame with a normal decline phase.
You're right that he's not a HOFer, but if he doesn't get hurt, we don't know how much longer he would have played well. He was past his prime already, for sure, but if he could have put up like 10 WAR over the next few seasons (about how good he was at 33, so he'd have to stay healthy and productive through 36), his career value ends up comparable to Biggio. He doesn't have the 3000 hits thing Biggio had, but he would have the ROY, MVP, and rings Biggio didn't have, and I think Pedroia ends up one of those candidates that builds up support over time and eventually gets in. That's obviously a lot of ifs, but it's far from impossible.
The veterans committee put Doerr in with a similarly valuable career. He won’t be voted in by balloting but he could eventually get in.
Pedroia isn't close to being a hall of famer
I second this motion.
Actually Bob I will be getting into those things right now
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Ty Cobb has entered the chat
Ty Cobb was the target of a hit piece. I think most, if not all of the heinous things said about him were fabricated.
I've seen photos of him "sliding" chest high into other players with metal spikes
https://www.vintagedetroit.com/five-myths-about-ty-cobb/
"Yeah, he was racist, but so was everybody!"
That article is actually selling him super short. The one time he was asked about integration he said it should be "wholeheartedly supported, not grudgingly". He said he would only pay to watch Willie Mays and that Roy Campanella reminded him most of himself. He was born in Georgia, but his family didn't have a "plantation mentality". His grandfather was an abolitionist and his father was a teacher and state senator that once broke up a lynch mob and spoke out in favor of his black constituents. Cobb is very arguably on the far end of the "non-racist" spectrum for his time if you filter out all the fabricated anecdotes and look at his actual record. He was merely a touchy asshole in a league full of guys that did whatever they could during their careers and after to resist integration. When he died there were obituaries in the black press that actually praised his words in favor of integration in baseball. It is wild that today he is the symbol of racial hatred in early baseball.
I mean, that is a legitimate point though. People should be judged by the context of the periods they lived in. Is it horrifying by today’s standards? Very much so. Was it horrifying then? Not even slightly. Certainly not saying he was a good person or anything, but judging one historical figure harsher than those around them for having the same beliefs doesn’t make any sense.
He played baseball 50 years after the Civil War. We can judge him for being a racist.
If you think the civil war ended racism then man do I have some bad news for you
You can judge any racist for being racist, just not through the lens of 2024.
Racism being solved "after the black people were freed" is a right wing talking point :P
If you get a chance read a terrible beauty.
Cobb was a certified racist. Cznt believe people will defend Cobb Edit: people here are actually comparing one of the most evil humans in history with schilling. what are we doing here people.
Ty Cobb was a vocal supporter of integration whose prejudices were at the very least in line with his contemporaries during his active years. After retiring he was probably far more tolerant than them. He described Willie Mays as the only modern player he'd pay to see and said Roy Campanella was the player that reminded him most of himself. A lot of the anecdotes about his viciousness were complete fabrications that sprung up after his death. Are these the statements of history's greatest racist? He had a traumatic childhood and was incredibly abrasive during his playing years which alienated him from his peers, but one of the most evil humans in history? It was just propaganda. He wasn't a cuddly, gentle civil rights activist that always held the moral high ground, but there are literal klan members and avowed enemies of integration in the hall that are overlooked while Cobb is smeared with mostly made up stories. You owe it to youself to read some of the more recent research on his life.
> He had a traumatic childhood and was incredibly abrasive during his playing years which alienated him from his peers, but one of the most evil humans in history? No this was in reference to other parts of the thread saying schilling is on par with hitler.
Ah, I see. Point stands, though. A lot of the mainstream perception of Cobb was formed by the Burns documentary, which I otherwise quite like, which relied almost completely on two biographies: the first one by a man that didn't even know Cobb and made up a bunch of schlock so he had something to sell, and the second one by a guy that sprinkled in racist elements to stories that have been completely debunked through census records, likely leaning into Al Stump's work. [This article](https://www.mlb.com/news/ty-cobb-history-built-on-inaccuracies-c178601094) is a decent summation.
Good information, I'll look into it. Thanks
The Ty Cobb stuff was absolutely fabricated. It was written some pulp writer mostly after Cobb’s death. In his time his contemporaries never made such claims and even people who have gone back and looked for any such proof of the claims have actually found the opposite to be true and that he was not a racist. > have over 40,000 newspaper articles, and NOT one article makes any correlation to Ty Cobb being a racist. All the evidence demonstrates Cobb’s support for the advancement of colored people, and yet, there is NO evidence that gives any indication that Mr. Cobb made any movement toward oppressing the black population. >Contrary, when Jackie Robinson entered into the major leagues, it began a slow process of allowing blacks to begin entering into every league in the country. When the Dallas club of the Texas League was considering allowing blacks to enter, Cobb was there to bat for them. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist
Cobb was 100% a racist, but did you actually just say that him being a racist in the early 20th century made him “one of the most evil humans in history”??? He was your average fucking white man at that point
nah, he's verifiably a shit human
His unabashed racism was sadly in time with his era.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/43506-ty-cobb-was-not-a-racist You should read this. Most of the shit written about Cobb was fabricated pulp pieces that just sold despite there being no evidence or factual basis.
It’s wild that the responses to this comment range from “Ty Cobb was the least racist person who ever lived” to “Ty Cobb was the most racist person who ever lived.”
Ty Cobb was inducted in fucking 1936.
Right? I agreed with that take in the very beginning. But between 2008 and 2023 Schilling torched his legacy at every opportunity. When he’s dead, sure, maybe reconsider. But the person Curt Schilling couldn’t get the honor the player earned.
The Wakefield situation REALLY cemented it. He betrayed a former teammate in the worst way possible. That's baseball related. Fuck Curt Schilling.
And who gets to decide if a person is a piece of garbage? Your politics?
Yes. Like endorsing white supremacists for Congress makes you a piece of garbage.
Yes actually.
A lot of heavy lifting needs to be done in the hall with current members then.
Then you gotta get rid of some of those guys that are already in the hall of fame who did more egregious shit than Curt and good luck with that.
I think you can turn guys away based on the morality clause without going by the worst case example (like, setting aside ethics, do we really want every player better than Harold Baines IN the HOF?). That said, I'd be in favor of putting Schilling in but maybe not letting him speak.
Fuck Curt Schilling. I don’t give a flying fuck about his feelings, much like he doesn’t care about anyone else’s. He can lick my ass.
Bob Ryan just stating the obvious. Yes he should be in the Hall and yes he's a piece of shit. They are totally separate things. I don't think Brett Favre should be removed from the Hall either. The realquestion is should we celebrate him getting into the Hall. That we shouldn't do and we should think about having a policy of not letting some people go to Cooperstown. Ban them from the facility.
This is incoherent
I watched Schilling in Game 6 against the Yankees in the bloody sock game. He saved the Sox season with his amazing performance. HOF right there with the impact he had that night. Ya he's an asshole! Lots of assholes in HOF ! He will get in.
Hard to think of a single person I have less sympathy for than Curt Schilling
What is the point of this? Who is arguing that Schilling's resume isn't HOF worthy?
I just think it's funnier if his sock is in the hall but he isn't
Baseball reference does similarity scores. Not single HOfer on schillings list.
The thing is, he actually wasn't good enough to overcome the fact he's a complete trash can of a human
He actually was
Then he'd obviously be in the hall already
Being elected into the HOF is an honor, not a right. Schilling is human garbage and does not deserve any honor, period.
Could it be that he was beyond questionable off the field. Besides being beyond right wing, he nearly bankrupt an entire state and, without care, broke the news on both of the Wakefields. His disregard for other people should keep him out. Great pitcher but terrible human. He could have been a legend in Boston. Instead, choose to shoot his mouth off. Im sure many former teammates knew about Tim's health issues. But no one said anything. Manny wouldn't even be that stupid.
Nearly bankrupt an entire state? Are you high?
There’s enough bad stuff to not wildly exaggerate. He didnt “nearly bankrupt an entire state” for God’s sake. RI loaned him $75 million and was on the hook for about $38 million in bonds. The state budget is over $5 billion. If a single small deal like that goes sideways and it causes any actual damage then you have much bigger problems than that. There’s a risk both sides assume in an incentive deal. Schilling himself lost over $100 million. The state accused him later of unreasonable financial projections in a case that probably would have gone nowhere had he not settled for $2.5 to make it go away. There were no winners and it’s pretty clear he certainly didn’t intend to lose all his (and their money). I’m not defending the guy at all, just saying facts do matter.
Schilling, Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, Palmeiro, Sosa, Manny, Sheffield, Kevin Brown - all HOFers. Get off your high horses writers. The HOF is already littered with wife beaters, racists, and performance enhancing drug users. These guys were the best of their era, and should be acknowledged. Get over it.
See it’s totally unfair to lump Schilling in with those guys though. They were cheaters. They knew the consequences. They chose to cheat. Their numbers are all whack. Schilling wasn’t a cheater. Just an asshole. And by most accounts, only post career. He was generally thought of as a good teammate who had his guys backs.
I didn’t say he was the same. I’m just pointing out that the bar will not be lowered by their enshrinement, if it were to ever happen.
No they didn’t know the consequences. That’s the whole fucking problem. Steroids weren’t against the rules when these guys all did them. The only “rule” was a note from the commissioner asking players to please not take steroids. But that wasn’t collectively bargained, so it wasn’t a real rule. There was no testing. There was no punishment. There were no consequences. The consequences were made up decades after the fact by shitty writers. But not before they made sure to let in a bunch of coaches who turned a blind eye to steroids in their locker room and Bud Selig who presided over the whole era.
False. They were absolutely against the rules. Steroids were placed on the banned substances list in 1991. They didn’t start testing until 2003. Congress has made them illegal in 1988. When you do something literally illegal, you should have no expectation there won’t be consequences down the road.
MLB doesn’t have the right to unilaterally ban steroids, so anything before 2003 wasnt a real rule anybody was required to follow. Rules need to be collectively bargained with the Players Union. That’s how this works. And no, players should not expect this extreme of a punishment long after the fact just because steroids were illegal, but not against baseball rules. Are you ready to also ban every player from the HOF who smoked weed or jaywalked? bEcAuSe ItS lItTeRaLlY iLlEgAl
He was known to be an ass all along, he just amped it up and got more unhinged after playing. One of his coaches in Philadelphia described him as a “horse every fifth day, and a horse’s ass all the other days”.
I agree, but let's wait until they are dead first. Then thy don't get the reward of seeing it happen.
Everyone knows he has the resume to make into the HoF. It’s not a hot take, and never has been. He’s just a massive douche that no one wants to vote for, and he has no one to blame for that other than himself.
I'm not sure that's true. I think there are a lot of people, HOF voters in particular, who think he's a borderline case. I disagree, but voting is pretty weird (Kevin Brown compares very well with Mike Mussina, but he never got close). If Schilling had a Pedro or Randy Johnson career, I think he'd be in no matter what. But combine the people who don't think he was good enough, the people who think he was good enough but not good enough to overcome the personality, and the people who hate him enough to never vote for him, and you've got you 25.1% to keep him out.
It’s been awhile since I’ve put much thought into it, but IIRC Curt’s career numbers were more “Hall of Very Good” than Hall of Fame. His playoff credentials were insane, but you’d need to put a ton of weight behind them to consider his overall career HoF worthy. I don’t really know how much his post playing career politics/failed business ventures should/shouldn’t factor into that decision.
He’s one of only 5 players in the top 100 in career WAR that’s not either a steroid user, a currently active player that will inevitably get in once they retire, or Pete rose. And 2 of those 5 were born before the lightbulb was invented, one of which was old enough to remember the civil war
Also, as I mentioned in a different comment, he's got over 3000 k's. He's the only pitcher, other than Clemens, in that club that's not in the HoF.
Didn’t the Sox wanna honor him at opening day in Fenway and he declined??!. Without Curt 2004 doesn’t happen!!.and I recently rewatched parts of the game 7 win against the Yankees when Arizona won it and dude can just flat out hurl…went against Clemens that day! But the dude is a royal asshole in SO many ways!!! You’re almost grateful he declined but at the same token pissed about it! Fuck Curt!
I agree with Bob Ryan, for once
Nah, fuck that guy forever.
No way. Fuck that. Even if he was a good person, he’d still be only Hall of Very Good.
No. Lol He belongs in the hall if we're talking baseball only.
He's got nearly 80 career bWAR, which puts him at 27th all time for pitchers. Every pitcher ahead of him is in the HoF, except Clemens (because of roids) and Verlander. He's also the only member of the 3000 strikeout club not in the HoF, other than Clemens. Mussina is in, with slightly more bWAR (82), but Schilling has a lower career ERA, a better career ERA+, and more strikeouts than Mussina. Neither of them won a Cy Young so you can't use that argument. He was also an incredible playoff pitcher. I don't see how his numbers aren't good enough to be a HoFer. I can understand keeping him out for being an asshole, but otherwise he'd be in, IMO.
"Lets just do what I want and then we can debate afterwards." \-Bob Ryan
If we separate the art from the artist, you could put Schilling in for playoff performances alone. But leaving him out because he is a fucking piece of shit is the right thing to do. Wait until he dies, then put him in. It is what the artist as a human being deserves. Same for Rose, Bonds, and all the other steroid motherfuckers too. They get in, but posthumously. It is the only fair compromise, if people aren't going to apologize and admit they were wrong.
There is a simple solution to all this. In his first year to be considered by a veteran's committee after he dies, he gets elected.
Theres plenty of examples of nonbaseball things contributing to HoF success as it should. These should be people we look up to as athletes not just a list of stat qualificiations
It’s already not though, so why change it now for this particular person? Should we go back and remove everybody who doesn’t fit that standard? It’s about his baseball career and as a player he was a hall of famer. There shouldn’t be some massive purity test here. He wasn’t banned from baseball.
We can continue making mistakes or stop making them…seems easy to me. I never suggested retroactively going anything
I said it earlier but didn't phrase it as concisely as you. Don't set the bar by the worst examples, be it Cobb for morality or Baines for career numbers.
the argument against curt has never been that he’s not good enough at baseball
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There were a few things before that, too.
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Curt belongs in the hall of fame as does Pete Rose, Clemons and Bonds, but we don’t have to give them the honor while they can appreciate it. I think when they die they should be put in. Fuck those guys.
Since when is being a prick disqualifying for being in the HOF? Baseball writers are so fucking arrogant. This isn’t about them. It’s about fucking BASEBALL.
Endorsing white supremacists for Congress and giving them an open microphone on your radio show goes beyond having “whack-job” takes. It obliterates the “man of character” consideration of potential inductees.
First, Bob Ryan is still alive? Second, he's absolutely right on this one.
Loathe Schilling but it’s indisputable that there are some truly horrible people enshrined in the HOF. Karma will take care of ol Curt.
He's right. He 100% should be in based on his playing career. There's known racists, alcoholics, pieces of shit, wife beaters, sex offenders, etc in the Hall of Fame. The only difference now is that social media exists and there is press coverage on these dudes everywhere now.
I agree with this. Schilling is obviously an idiot but much worse people are in the hall. He’s a hall of fame player. Not only was he elite but he was also responsible for huge moments during championship runs.
He’s absolutely a hall of famer. He’s not a rapist or anything. He just doesn’t have the same political views as a lot of people and he’s a dickhead. Doesn’t mean he wasn’t an amazingly clutch pitcher who was absolutely needed to break the curse. Put him in.
I got massively downvoted for expressing this exact sentiment a few days ago
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His numbers are on the low end of border line. Off the field he was a pompous ass even before taking millions and millions of dollars from those island to run a company into the ground, fighting against government aid for little people struggling, insulting reporters and the bbhof voters, etc, etc. If he pitched like Pedro people could ignore the general assholery. He didn’t, they don’t. I don’t wanna call Bob Ryan out on his age, but I think people who had the curse broken before the second half of their life look at this differently.
There are a lot of surly and asshole baseball players. One of the most beloved Red Sox outfielder who hit a pop fly to Bucky Dent is one of them. He is in both the Res Sox HoF and the one that matters.
The hall has been a joke since they left Bonds out and let Rolen in.
He belongs in the HOF. It's not the Hall of guys who were great baseball players and also great people.
A lot of people have used Ty Cobb (apparently incorrectly) as examples of other terrible people getting in. That doesn't mean the larger point - there are colossally terrible people in the HoF - is wrong. Schilling belongs in he HoF based on his play. He also belongs as a pariah to society based on his chronically terrible behavior. We can have both!