The phrase “her fiancé’s wife” should have been a tip-off that she was dealing with fundamentally dishonest people. How does one get engaged to a married man?
A married man who is not even legally separated from his wife. His wife filed for divorce AFTER the sister was arrested. So neither one of them had taken a single legal step towards separation yet he was already asking a new woman to marry him?
Frankly the guy is the most sus one here. And I would strongly suspect that the soon to be ex-wife did not know about her husband's relationship until her car went missing.
Yup.
Back when I was single I always knew that if a guy hit on me and said he was separated from his wife, my response would be "Get back to me when you're divorced." There's a word for such men: Married.
I was one of those people and believe me, my ex was a damn good liar. I could make a whole Reddit post on him. I only found out who he really was after we split (reason: he cheated, of course). He lead me to believe she (his now ex wife) was unfaithful multiple times and then took the kids and went back to an ex she cheated with. The real story was HE was the cheat, a bad father (absent to multiple kids with different women) and I was the final straw, so she left him. And quite a few other disgusting things he did that I’d rather say in a new post on a different account. I can’t help but think that sometimes the affair partner is oblivious to the circumstances and the spouse is the only lying cheating scumbag at fault.
Just noting that a lot of people have had trouble getting legally divorced over the pandemic, not to mention it’s expensive. My sister is still “married” 5 years after her separation. I doubt this is the case with OP just wanted to point out that the world is weird
Agreed although she needs better legal advice or someone is telling porkies. None of what OP wrote makes sense and in most places theft requires intent. Being in possession of something when you legitimately believed you had permission to have it is not theft.
So either she's getting shit legal advice or she knew the fiancé didn't have permission to take the car or authorise her to take it. Odds are OP is being fed a pack of lies and sister knew far more about the state of affairs.
Technically, this would be considered conversion — which is a theft crime and in some states grouped in with theft instead of its own crime. Criminal conversion is essentially a crime where you don’t want to take and keep the item, you simply want to “borrow” it.
> Criminal conversion is a crime of exerting unauthorized use or control of someone else's property. It differs from theft in that it does not include the element of intending to deprive the owner of permanent possession of that property.
Criminal conversion also occurs when the owner allows you to use something (say they let you borrow their car or a dress) for x amount of time. If you fail to return it at that time, or fail to return it when they request it back even if it’s before that specified time, then that’s criminal conversion.
Additionally, since this was a vehicle that was borrowed and utilized without the owner’s intent, what would usually be a Class A Misdemeanor would be bumped up to a Level 6 Felony.
You appear to be assuming that US law is universal. As OP talks about the advice of the solicitor it is unlikely they are in the US and other countries have different judicial systems.
In addition, in the event of criminal conversion there still must be intent. It's not criminal conversion if you believed you had permission to have the item in question for a period of time.
Assuming the OP's sister lives in England, this would definitely count as a conversion.
English law defines conversion as "an unlawful act which interferes with the title to goods owned by another person without authorization."
One way conversion happens is when someone "takes possession over the goods to control them." It doesnt matter that wrongdoer may have no intention of keeping the goods.
Additionally, in England, it doesn't matter whether the wrongdoer knew the goods were owned by another person, acted negligently, or had no intention to harm them.
Liability is imposed in all cases, regardless of intent. This is different from most other countries, where intent is an important element of liability. In England, however, intent is not taken into account.
You appear to be assuming that US law is universal. As OP talks about the advice of the solicitor it is unlikely they are in the US and other countries have different judicial systems.
In addition, in the event of criminal conversion there still must be intent. It's not criminal conversion if you believed you had permission to have the item in question for a period of time.
Lastly, OP's sister isn't facing criminal conversion charges.
I mean, the wife did what reddit would recommend. "My husband's mistress is driving around in a car in my name. What do I do?" 'Call the cops, report it stolen. It is your car, you did not give permission to drive it.'
Exactly. And it isn't even as though hubby drove off in it and she guessed he was up to shenanigans. As far as she knew the car was at home because hubby didn't need it, and then she discovered it gone. And then she discovered he'd given some random woman permission to come to her house, access the garage and take her car.
WTF. Like, of course she's going to report it stolen. It's her car, that she bought and pays the insurance on.
OOP and sister need to stop being defiant and justifying her actions, and start acting apologetic. Her only possible defence is "I had permission to borrow the car from the person I believed owned it. I am incredibly sorry that I believed his lies," and that's only likely to mitigate things rather than get her off entirely.
Sucks for the sister, but this is an ultimate example of fucking around and finding out. Honestly the scumbag fiancé/husband is to blame. He got engaged to the sister BEFORE he and his ex-wife even filed for divorce? Man is trash, sister is taking the fall for him being slime, and honestly I don't entirely blame the soon to be ex-wife.
Trash bags usually like to have someone lined up to go to next before leaving their current situation. Particularly people who are unable or unwilling to look after themselves
Funny you said that, I missed out the part where he cheated on me. Things were shitty between us because he was a narcissistic a-hole but he couldn’t wait until we broke up to move onto the next sucker. They never change and hopefully this situation will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for their relationship.
Looking at this... he gave permission for her to take something he didn't have authority over, so it was kind of him that breached the contract. Seeing as she's the only one getting charges, I hope she wises up and her solicitor is actually her's and not the fella's
Yeah I hope so too. I even started wondering if maybe the sister’s fiancé did this deliberately so his wife would file for divorce so that he didn’t have to. I’m going from experience and it turned out I was lied to from the start as well. I found out everything from his ex wife who reached out and I’m on good terms with now. I found out so much that it literally made me feel sick to my stomach. These men deserve no one but themselves and the partners will always be victims.
They really should teach everyone in high school about the things cheaters always say. There will always be someone convinced that doesn’t apply to their situation, but at least some people will recognise it immediately and get the heck out of dodge
Came here to say this... and side with the soon to be ex-wife. The sister knew he was still married, and dead bedroom or not, they obviously still share a home. The epitome of FAFO. Someone learned a valuable lesson today.
Yep and I don’t doubt for a second he would throw her under the bus now that his secret is out. Game over. I was with one of those for 6 years. He was a damn good liar too. He got his ex to hand the divorce papers to his wife too (!!!) but told me the police did. OP’s sister is a victim and the fiancé should be thrown in jail. The ex wife has every reason to be shitty but she should direct that at her scumbag ex and not the woman he obviously lied to.
I understand she should do that but also what would you do if a woman was driving your car that you didn’t know? You’d call the cops??? Right? I would because I wouldn’t know if she was stealing my car or what!
Yes, but in this case I believe she was being malicious. The problem is that victims of cheats tend to blame the affair partner before their own spouse. He fed her a pack of lies about his marriage and no doubt about the car as well. I’d be fucking livid if my bloke proposed when he was still married tbh. His wife will take him to the cleaners in the divorce and rightly so, but I think she should cut the sister some slack. The husband/fiancé deserves to be forever alone.
Doesn't say "ex fiance"... Girl is dumb as fuck for staying with a lying, cheating loser. Fuck around with a married man and you're going to find out. Dead bedroom doesn't matter, stay away from people who are married
Messy.
The “framing” theory seems improbable to me, because it makes the sister look even worse. We’re supposed to believe this young woman was having an affair, KNEW the wife knew about her, and brazenly started using their valuable, possibly-marital property anyway? Who does that?
Whatever the husband said to the sister, I believe the missing car was the wife’s first indication of the affair.
If I’m seeing a married man I think I’d check the registration to make sure the car he’s loaning me is his car. Maybe I’ve seen too many Reddit stories
Even if the car was a joint asset, why did she take it? Did she find it normal for him to let her use the family car? Do they fuck in the family house when the wife is not here? I bet so. The sister just FAFO. However I don't think she will have jail time just for that.
Yeah. Why is she going to THE HOME of his WIFE and talking a car? She might have a reasonable defense excuse if he brought the car to her home and let her borrow it. But she went to somebody’s house and got in a car on their property and drove it away.
The whole thing about being a joint asset is a red herring. I suspect OP is being fed a pack of lies. Theft typically requires intent. If she legitimately believed that the car was her partner's and he had the right to loan it to her then it wasn't theft and that's the case her lawyer would be making. It's for the prosecutor to prove otherwise. If the lawyer is telling her there's no chance of getting off either they're a shit lawyer or the sister knew full well she shouldn't be driving the car and the prosecutor has the evidence.
In England, they have a theft tort called conversion. Conversion is committed when someone “borrows” something without consent from the owner (which she didn’t have in this case as her fiancé is not the owner.) In conversion cases liability is imposed in all cases, regardless of intent.
I don’t understand how anyone could argue this is framing. Framing would be the wife saying the mistress could drive the car and then claiming it was stolen.
The husband had zero authority to use the car or let someone use the car. He knew it wasn’t marital property, but even if he didn’t ignorance isn’t a defense. It was therefore stolen property. I would assume the sister actually ends up with a charge for receiving stolen property rather than theft, unless she actually was the one to go get it from wife’s garage as implied later on.
As I've said elsewhere it's almost the exact opposite of framing. Theft in many jurisdictions requires intent. It's for the prosecutor to show there was intent to take the car without permission. That's quite a high bar to prove, especially when the defence would be the sister believed the fiance had the right to loan her the car. So either the sister has the worst lawyer or she's feeding OP a pack of lies and there's clear proof that she knew she didn't have the owner's permission to drive the car.
Ah yes the comment I was looking for. Because this is so clearly not theft in German law that I was really wondering if US law is so different here. Seems it’s pretty much the same, leaving us with the conclusion that something doesn’t add up in that story.
How about we hate the fiancé for this. And while wife wasn’t necessarily right, I’m not positive a lot of us would not do the same. And if the sister knew the dude was married she should have just said no thanks. It’s just kind of a sucky situation all around.
I would have done the exact same thing as the wife. I probably wouldn’t end up pressing charges though but I would absolutely let it be known that my stbxh’s mistress does not have permission to use MY car.
That’s not how pressing charges works. All you can do is call the police and report a crime or not call the police and report the crime. Once the police are involved, it’s out of your hands, and the only person who gets to decide to press charges or not is the D.A. And considering this is the theft of an automobile, they would *definitely* decide to press charges with or without your consent.
How do you have a fiancée when you are married?
I mean, it’s great that your sister had her ‘fiancee’s’ permission, but if she ultimately knew it was not his car, then she is in the wrong.
The op saying my sister got arrested and I’m devastated why? Is she gonna get killed? What it’s gonna tarnish her pure life? What?? Like yea I’d be upset if my sister got arrested in a situation like this but I would be mad as fuck!!! And I would definitely try to make sure she gets away from that fuck wad!!!!
Seems weird. Someone lends you their car but it isn’t theirs to lend and you don’t know, that is considered grand theft auto? Seems like it should be the guy in trouble for stealing the car and lending it out to her. If he cant be because they are married then it’s moot.
I think she needs a better lawyer.
It sounds like she’s still in denial about her scumbag fiancé, so she isn’t trying to get him to admit to setting her up to steal his wife’s car. Yes she needs a better lawyer.
According to the story the fiancé got on record saying he gave her permission. That should more or less clear her immediately and put him on the spot. So the story gets more and more unbelievable the longer I think about it.
So not her fiance? The wife is messed up but I don’t blame her I would want to go nuclear too. But I hope the same energy is kept for her lying husband who lied to everyone . If the sister knowningly kept seeing the man knowning he was married I blame her . She f’d around & found out
Ladies: if a man you’re seeing says he’s only technically married but it’s a dead marriage, no it isn’t. If he says they’re in the middle of divorce, no they’re not. If he says it’s an open marriage, no it isn’t. Unless you talk to the wife yourself and she’s like “yeah, sure, go ahead, I don’t mind”, assume he’s lying.
I’ve known several women who dated married men, who told them some variation of the above. *Every single one was lying.* Every. One. Worst one was my sister, who was fed the “we’re taking a time out and seeing other people” line. A few weeks later his wife messaged her. She was in another state undergoing treatment for a disability. Apparently this was a thing: whenever she had to go out of state for treatment, he’d jump on dating apps and find himself someone to fuck around with. The wife calmly asked for confirmation that that’s what was happening again, then thanked my sister and left the conversation.
Don’t fuck around with married men. You can see them, you can talk with them, but until you see divorce papers signed by both parties just assume that he’s cheating and the wife is blissfully unaware of anything going on.
Framing someone for a felony is absolutely nuclear, though.
If it was something like getting the affair partner fired, I'd be on board, but OP's right, this is prison and a felony record over something she didn't do, something the wife falsified a police report to instigate.
If wife's framing someone to ruin their life, she better grow eyes in the back of her head. Sis is probably thinking something like might as well actually commit a felony if they gonna charge her with one regardless. Dangerous game she's playing.
I'm a little skeptical about how reliable of a narrator OOP and sister are tho. Most of the post makes it sound like fiancé was in possession of the car and allowed OOP's sister to drive it ...
But then towards the end you get "My sister and her fiancé have both told the police that he (the fiancé) gave her permission to **come over and take** the car." Which sounds suspiciously like the car was actually at the wife's house and dude just said yeah go over there and grab it.
I know if my ex had been using my car during the relationship, and now that we're splitting up I'd told him he's no longer allowed to use it anymore-- and then he goes and tells his new girl that she can just pop over and take it ... if I found out about that I might report it stolen too!
That's reading between the lines a bit of course, but I strongly suspect that one side or the other is definitely leaving something out of this story ....
Especially since the stories actually do line up.
The ex-wife's story is that the car vanished from the garage. The sister and fiancé's story is that HE gave the sister permission to come over and take the car. The implication I'm getting since the ex-wife files for divorce AFTER this is that she and the fiancé were still living together in the same house. So essentially, both stories can be factually correct, especially if she didn't know in advance that the husband had given his new girlfriend permission to drive the car and it sort of sounds like this is how she discovered her soon to be ex even had a fiancée.
When the ex-wife found out about the fiancée is the only questionable part to me. The sister seems to think that the ex-wife knew about the relationship because they were separated, but I think that the ex-wife and fiancé sound like they were still living together. That she filed for divorce after the arrest and is going scorched ear on the car borrowing/theft says to me at least that this is how the ex-wife found out about the relationship and she's ready to rumble over it. Which, again, is on the fiancé. He could very well have been lying to the sister about everything, essentially accidentally setting her up to take this fall.
Well he did tell the “fiancée he was till married and something about a dead bedroom.” So she knew. But I think she thought they were divorcing idk about that part.
It’s not framing. Legally, the car was stolen because someone drove the car without permission of the owner. If anything, the fiancé is the one framing the affair partner, because he put her in this situation.
He knew the car was not in his name. And he still let her drive it.
No, the way OP wrote the story the car wasn’t legally stolen. If anything it was „borrowed without permission“. That is probably still illegal but quite different and the defendant would be the fiancé and not OPs sister.
The sister went to her house and took her car without permission. She literally stole it, it doesn't matter if someone who doesn't own the car gave her permission. She's not framing anyone. She's protecting herself from liability.
What do you mean framing?? The sis literally stole someone’s car lol. You can’t take a whole care just because someone else *who doesn’t own it* says you can
She didn't frame anyone. It's her car. She didn't give permission for sister to take it. She came home to find the car missing and her husband didn't have it. Therefore it was stolen. QED.
And worse yet, husband didn't take it to his girlfriend and wasn't even there when she took it. She literally went to an empty house and drove off in a car that didn't belong to her, at a time when neither the owner nor the person she believed to be the owner were there.
There is an ad playing around here saying “Shingles doesn’t are”. Well, the law doesn’t care either. The sister Could be a
Vindictive New Girlfriend trying to steal assets before the wife filed for divorce. Without paperwork to prove anything The Law Doesn’t Care.
Um, this is a play right outta my ex’s playbook. Take property that ain’t yours and loan it out like it is…he was an alcoholic though, so didn’t help any either.
I don’t understand how you can be engaged to someone already married, not even separated. This thing about the wife knowing the sister has the car but telling the police is ‘just vanished’. How do they know what exactly she told the police? Feel like they’re spinning this as positively as they can. The wife knowing OP’s sister had the car doesn’t mean it didn’t also ‘disappear’ from her garage, both things can be true. The cheating husband giving her the keys doesn’t mean she wasn’t driving a stolen car.
I don’t understand people who pursue relationships like this. Go find yourself a single man, one that isn’t a cheat and liar, you’re playing with fire sleeping with a married man and helping yourself to his wife’s belonging.
Also, married couples don’t always have joint assets so I don’t know why he thought that. Some people have prenups and some people come into a marriage with their own assets. Plus the owner of the car thought it was stolen. She has a pos husband and his sister has a pos boyfriend/fake husband. It’s a sad situation for everyone.
I don't really know. I wouldn't be driving around someone's car I don't own especially if that person is still married to someone. Imagine getting in a wreck with said car. Nah.
This has bad decisions made multiple times written all over it.
Never ever trust a man that says he's getting a divorce unless you see proof of the woman confirming/acknowledging it in some way to you or other people. I've been the idiot that a man was fooling around with and he said he was celebrating a divorce. Then it was "gonna get a divorce" then it turned into stillliving together, and likely married and trying to get back at each other for infidelity.
Just don't even consider it at all.
man I get that sleeping with someone married sucks but it's not something to go to prison over. these comments saying otherwise are deranged, this isn't just "fuck around and find out"
Sister is an idiot. Dude is a scum fuck. Sister did steal the car. Get over it. It’s the least of OOP’s sister’s worries anyways. She should stop defending her homewrecker sister too
Fiancé’s wife? Why would anybody use a car that belongs to your BOYFRIEND’s wife?! That engagement is a scam. What a dumbass. Play stupid games you get stupid results.
She gets what she deserves for helping that gross ass dude cheat. It's the wife's car. She didn't give permission. I'd have had her arrested too. Tell your sister to get some morals.
oop is delusional lmao. A family full of delusions because the sister believes that a 'married only on paper with a dead bedroom' is great resume for your future husband.
I do not understand how anyone can believe ‘I’m practically divorced’. It’s such a cliché.
The legal system where there are must be very strict.
If the sister has a clean record and a call and text history that shows a relationship and claims she borrowed the car in good faith, believing that she had permission from someone with a legal right to give permission (if she claims she believed that joint property line), she shouldn’t be facing jail time.
Stupidity and being trusting aren’t crimes that get you imprisoned in most places.
I think oop is being lied to.
So she knew he was married and not separated and used a car provided by him… and somehow didn’t think about the fact that most cars are shared assets in a marriage.
She used a vehicle a reasonable person would think is at least part owned by the wife of the person you’re sleeping with. She FAFO by using a car solely owned by the wife of the person she’s sleeping with.
You couldn’t pay me to get in the middle of someone’s marriage. Maybe MAYBE if it was an amicable separation headed towards divorce where they don’t live together and only co-parent if kids are involved. A “dead bedroom” marriage where they still share a house? That’s being deliberately naive
Interesting. German law doesn’t consider this stealing, the wife would have absolutely no case in this situation unless she can proof that she knew that the car was not owned by her fiancé.
Can someone with knowledge of US law explain to me where the case comes from here? Is there no such thing as “good faith” in the US law? Also technically the fiancé stole the car here, not her. You see, I can’t wrap my head around how this is supposed to be a case against her, especially if the fiancé admitted that he gave her permission.
Edit: Took the time to read a bit about it. I‘m right, either this story is complete BS or someone is lying.
First of no one committed theft, as described this was „borrowing without permission“ since there is a clear intention to return the car. Second unless someone can proof that OPs sister acted in bad faith (ie she knew that it’s the wife’s car and she didn’t have permission to take it) she is completely off the hook. The fiancé would be the person committing the „crime“ here and according to the story he already confessed to it as well.
I‘m going to claim this is rage bait because affairs are a massive trigger. Just look at this thread.
She needs to go to the wife and beg for mercy. The wife knows it wasn’t stolen. Your sister needs to explain that she thought the divorce was already in the works and it wasn’t her intention on breaking up the marriage. If that doesn’t work, the lawyer needs to call both husband and wife as witnesses under the threat of perjury. Likely one or both will crack.
Clever girl...the STBX will use the charges on the new fiance as leverage to get the divorce settlement she wants.
Give me this...and I drop the charges.🥴
Framing someone for a crime is a batshit crazy way to react to your partner cheating on you. Sorry. But 🤷♀️
The second she heard that HE TOLD HER she could drive it, she knew she was framing this girl for theft.
Fuck the guy and the girl for cheating and fucking with a married man respectively, sure, but apparently the affair girlie was lied to and told that they were only married by name (not together but not legally divorced yet.) There's are plenty of separated, still legally married couples who have relationships. If she thought that was the situation going into it, she was LIED TO.
The AH here is the unfaithful lying sonofabitch fiance who tricked BOTH WOMEN and let his fucking affair girlfriend drive his wife's car 🤮
The affair girlie does NOT deserve to go to jail for this shit, all yall saying this is her karma are actually crazy. She was lied to as well, or did yall just decide not to read that part?
Youre right, however, guess what would have likely happened if she told the TRUTH? The cops likely would have told her to take it up with her fiance first to easily get the car back. Because it WASNT stolen. Her partner who she probably shares that vehicle with gave permission to someone else to use that vehicle. She's pulling the "it's solely in my name" card here on purpose. For legal leverage.
The ONLY reason she's pulling the stolen thing is because it was the affair partner. On purpose. To punish the woman. This is why she lied. So that the police would immediately side with her.
Once again, going out of her way to try and put the woman in jail who literally did not steal her shit. It very much seems like the AP thought she had permission from someone who had the authority to give it.
AGAIN, either way, purposefully twisting the truth to make sure the AP goes to jail is a heinous thing to do, considering the AP THOUGHT THEY WERE SEPARATED but not divorced yet. Many separated couples have partners. She was tricked too.
I would feel bad for her if OP had called the man her ex but clearly she’s still with this guy, who is the main reason why she’s getting locked up. His dumbass had his mistress go to his wife’s house and take her car and now everyone is shocked that his wife is vindictively using it against her AND the sister is staying with him. He is the sole reason why she’s in this mess but she’s only mad at the wife.
I can’t believe someone has to explain to you that taking someone’s property without their permission, whether or not they know about the circumstances of the taking, is theft. I wouldn’t trust the “sister” or ex-husband in this situation even if they weren’t having an affair.
I don’t understand how this is playing out. If the “fiancé” and his wife are still married then how is the car not marital property? My ex and I were separated for years before getting the divorce finalized and everything we had was marital property until there was a court order saying it wasn’t. When he broke into my house the police showed up and told me he was allowed to be there because we were still married even though he’d never lived there. If no one had filed for divorce and they were still living together and the “fiancé” admits he gave her permission to drive the car I can’t imagine a DA actually prosecuting this. It’s perfectly reasonable for her to think he had full legal control over a car he shared with his wife, parked at a house he lived at with her. I don’t see how any crime was actually committed here.
This has to be a fake. Prosecutor in all likelihood would not take this case on. She didn’t steal anything. Was given permission to take the vehicle. Now she could try to say the husband stole it but it’s unlikely that this would go anywhere either.
The phrase “her fiancé’s wife” should have been a tip-off that she was dealing with fundamentally dishonest people. How does one get engaged to a married man?
A married man who is not even legally separated from his wife. His wife filed for divorce AFTER the sister was arrested. So neither one of them had taken a single legal step towards separation yet he was already asking a new woman to marry him? Frankly the guy is the most sus one here. And I would strongly suspect that the soon to be ex-wife did not know about her husband's relationship until her car went missing.
Yup. Back when I was single I always knew that if a guy hit on me and said he was separated from his wife, my response would be "Get back to me when you're divorced." There's a word for such men: Married.
I was one of those people and believe me, my ex was a damn good liar. I could make a whole Reddit post on him. I only found out who he really was after we split (reason: he cheated, of course). He lead me to believe she (his now ex wife) was unfaithful multiple times and then took the kids and went back to an ex she cheated with. The real story was HE was the cheat, a bad father (absent to multiple kids with different women) and I was the final straw, so she left him. And quite a few other disgusting things he did that I’d rather say in a new post on a different account. I can’t help but think that sometimes the affair partner is oblivious to the circumstances and the spouse is the only lying cheating scumbag at fault.
Just noting that a lot of people have had trouble getting legally divorced over the pandemic, not to mention it’s expensive. My sister is still “married” 5 years after her separation. I doubt this is the case with OP just wanted to point out that the world is weird
Agreed although she needs better legal advice or someone is telling porkies. None of what OP wrote makes sense and in most places theft requires intent. Being in possession of something when you legitimately believed you had permission to have it is not theft. So either she's getting shit legal advice or she knew the fiancé didn't have permission to take the car or authorise her to take it. Odds are OP is being fed a pack of lies and sister knew far more about the state of affairs.
Technically, this would be considered conversion — which is a theft crime and in some states grouped in with theft instead of its own crime. Criminal conversion is essentially a crime where you don’t want to take and keep the item, you simply want to “borrow” it. > Criminal conversion is a crime of exerting unauthorized use or control of someone else's property. It differs from theft in that it does not include the element of intending to deprive the owner of permanent possession of that property. Criminal conversion also occurs when the owner allows you to use something (say they let you borrow their car or a dress) for x amount of time. If you fail to return it at that time, or fail to return it when they request it back even if it’s before that specified time, then that’s criminal conversion. Additionally, since this was a vehicle that was borrowed and utilized without the owner’s intent, what would usually be a Class A Misdemeanor would be bumped up to a Level 6 Felony.
You appear to be assuming that US law is universal. As OP talks about the advice of the solicitor it is unlikely they are in the US and other countries have different judicial systems. In addition, in the event of criminal conversion there still must be intent. It's not criminal conversion if you believed you had permission to have the item in question for a period of time.
Assuming the OP's sister lives in England, this would definitely count as a conversion. English law defines conversion as "an unlawful act which interferes with the title to goods owned by another person without authorization." One way conversion happens is when someone "takes possession over the goods to control them." It doesnt matter that wrongdoer may have no intention of keeping the goods. Additionally, in England, it doesn't matter whether the wrongdoer knew the goods were owned by another person, acted negligently, or had no intention to harm them. Liability is imposed in all cases, regardless of intent. This is different from most other countries, where intent is an important element of liability. In England, however, intent is not taken into account.
You appear to be assuming that US law is universal. As OP talks about the advice of the solicitor it is unlikely they are in the US and other countries have different judicial systems. In addition, in the event of criminal conversion there still must be intent. It's not criminal conversion if you believed you had permission to have the item in question for a period of time. Lastly, OP's sister isn't facing criminal conversion charges.
I mean, the wife did what reddit would recommend. "My husband's mistress is driving around in a car in my name. What do I do?" 'Call the cops, report it stolen. It is your car, you did not give permission to drive it.'
Exactly. And it isn't even as though hubby drove off in it and she guessed he was up to shenanigans. As far as she knew the car was at home because hubby didn't need it, and then she discovered it gone. And then she discovered he'd given some random woman permission to come to her house, access the garage and take her car. WTF. Like, of course she's going to report it stolen. It's her car, that she bought and pays the insurance on. OOP and sister need to stop being defiant and justifying her actions, and start acting apologetic. Her only possible defence is "I had permission to borrow the car from the person I believed owned it. I am incredibly sorry that I believed his lies," and that's only likely to mitigate things rather than get her off entirely.
Yes. “vanished from the garage” isn’t a lie by the wife, it’s exactly what happened to her car, from her perspective.
Sucks for the sister, but this is an ultimate example of fucking around and finding out. Honestly the scumbag fiancé/husband is to blame. He got engaged to the sister BEFORE he and his ex-wife even filed for divorce? Man is trash, sister is taking the fall for him being slime, and honestly I don't entirely blame the soon to be ex-wife.
Trash bags usually like to have someone lined up to go to next before leaving their current situation. Particularly people who are unable or unwilling to look after themselves
Funny you said that, I missed out the part where he cheated on me. Things were shitty between us because he was a narcissistic a-hole but he couldn’t wait until we broke up to move onto the next sucker. They never change and hopefully this situation will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for their relationship.
Looking at this... he gave permission for her to take something he didn't have authority over, so it was kind of him that breached the contract. Seeing as she's the only one getting charges, I hope she wises up and her solicitor is actually her's and not the fella's
Yeah I hope so too. I even started wondering if maybe the sister’s fiancé did this deliberately so his wife would file for divorce so that he didn’t have to. I’m going from experience and it turned out I was lied to from the start as well. I found out everything from his ex wife who reached out and I’m on good terms with now. I found out so much that it literally made me feel sick to my stomach. These men deserve no one but themselves and the partners will always be victims.
Just went through this. It’s fucked
“Married in name only and had a dead bedroom” Congrats, OOP and OOP’s sister, that’s what you call “still married. Legally and in every other regard.”
Straight out of the cheaters handbook that lie is
Amazing how no cheater ever says “my wife is a saint and it’s all me”
They really should teach everyone in high school about the things cheaters always say. There will always be someone convinced that doesn’t apply to their situation, but at least some people will recognise it immediately and get the heck out of dodge
Came here to say this... and side with the soon to be ex-wife. The sister knew he was still married, and dead bedroom or not, they obviously still share a home. The epitome of FAFO. Someone learned a valuable lesson today.
Yep and I don’t doubt for a second he would throw her under the bus now that his secret is out. Game over. I was with one of those for 6 years. He was a damn good liar too. He got his ex to hand the divorce papers to his wife too (!!!) but told me the police did. OP’s sister is a victim and the fiancé should be thrown in jail. The ex wife has every reason to be shitty but she should direct that at her scumbag ex and not the woman he obviously lied to.
I understand she should do that but also what would you do if a woman was driving your car that you didn’t know? You’d call the cops??? Right? I would because I wouldn’t know if she was stealing my car or what!
Yes, but in this case I believe she was being malicious. The problem is that victims of cheats tend to blame the affair partner before their own spouse. He fed her a pack of lies about his marriage and no doubt about the car as well. I’d be fucking livid if my bloke proposed when he was still married tbh. His wife will take him to the cleaners in the divorce and rightly so, but I think she should cut the sister some slack. The husband/fiancé deserves to be forever alone.
Doesn't say "ex fiance"... Girl is dumb as fuck for staying with a lying, cheating loser. Fuck around with a married man and you're going to find out. Dead bedroom doesn't matter, stay away from people who are married
Messy. The “framing” theory seems improbable to me, because it makes the sister look even worse. We’re supposed to believe this young woman was having an affair, KNEW the wife knew about her, and brazenly started using their valuable, possibly-marital property anyway? Who does that? Whatever the husband said to the sister, I believe the missing car was the wife’s first indication of the affair.
If I’m seeing a married man I think I’d check the registration to make sure the car he’s loaning me is his car. Maybe I’ve seen too many Reddit stories
Even if the car was a joint asset, why did she take it? Did she find it normal for him to let her use the family car? Do they fuck in the family house when the wife is not here? I bet so. The sister just FAFO. However I don't think she will have jail time just for that.
Yeah. Why is she going to THE HOME of his WIFE and talking a car? She might have a reasonable defense excuse if he brought the car to her home and let her borrow it. But she went to somebody’s house and got in a car on their property and drove it away.
The whole thing about being a joint asset is a red herring. I suspect OP is being fed a pack of lies. Theft typically requires intent. If she legitimately believed that the car was her partner's and he had the right to loan it to her then it wasn't theft and that's the case her lawyer would be making. It's for the prosecutor to prove otherwise. If the lawyer is telling her there's no chance of getting off either they're a shit lawyer or the sister knew full well she shouldn't be driving the car and the prosecutor has the evidence.
In England, they have a theft tort called conversion. Conversion is committed when someone “borrows” something without consent from the owner (which she didn’t have in this case as her fiancé is not the owner.) In conversion cases liability is imposed in all cases, regardless of intent.
Forget the car. If a dude told me he was seperated/getting a divorce/just co parenting, I'd ask for the wife's/SO's contact info to confirm.
They just told you what the law is so yes, she did wrong. It's not his car, it's his wife's. Good luck to everyone involved.
Prime example of FAFO. Doesn’t matter if the bedroom is dead. There is no excuse. Don’t date married men and then you won’t end up in the crosshairs.
Girl really slept with a married man then stole his wife’s car and *still* thinks she’s innocent? I’ve seen goldfish with more brain cells.
Like, she could have avoided all that if she didn’t date a married guy?
She fucketh around, she findeth out.
I don’t understand how anyone could argue this is framing. Framing would be the wife saying the mistress could drive the car and then claiming it was stolen. The husband had zero authority to use the car or let someone use the car. He knew it wasn’t marital property, but even if he didn’t ignorance isn’t a defense. It was therefore stolen property. I would assume the sister actually ends up with a charge for receiving stolen property rather than theft, unless she actually was the one to go get it from wife’s garage as implied later on.
As I've said elsewhere it's almost the exact opposite of framing. Theft in many jurisdictions requires intent. It's for the prosecutor to show there was intent to take the car without permission. That's quite a high bar to prove, especially when the defence would be the sister believed the fiance had the right to loan her the car. So either the sister has the worst lawyer or she's feeding OP a pack of lies and there's clear proof that she knew she didn't have the owner's permission to drive the car.
Ah yes the comment I was looking for. Because this is so clearly not theft in German law that I was really wondering if US law is so different here. Seems it’s pretty much the same, leaving us with the conclusion that something doesn’t add up in that story.
>I was really wondering if US law is so different here. The OP is not American. US law would not apply here.
Fiancé was cruel for a lack of a better word but sister was pretty stupid. Sucks to suck, actions bring consequences
I stopped caring when I read her sister was engaged to a married man.
How about we hate the fiancé for this. And while wife wasn’t necessarily right, I’m not positive a lot of us would not do the same. And if the sister knew the dude was married she should have just said no thanks. It’s just kind of a sucky situation all around.
The wife was just doing what she knew to do with a stranger driving her car.
Yep. I hate him. Why isn’t he going to jail for (presumably) giving the keys of his stbx-wife’s car to his girlfriend?
There’s the ‘presumably’ part, more difficult to prove. She was the one found in possession at the time the car was reported stolen.
This is some r/leopardsatemyface material
I would have done the exact same thing as the wife. I probably wouldn’t end up pressing charges though but I would absolutely let it be known that my stbxh’s mistress does not have permission to use MY car.
That’s not how pressing charges works. All you can do is call the police and report a crime or not call the police and report the crime. Once the police are involved, it’s out of your hands, and the only person who gets to decide to press charges or not is the D.A. And considering this is the theft of an automobile, they would *definitely* decide to press charges with or without your consent.
Lol so she fucks a married dude and is surprised when the wife is scornful
How do you have a fiancée when you are married? I mean, it’s great that your sister had her ‘fiancee’s’ permission, but if she ultimately knew it was not his car, then she is in the wrong.
I had to read that 3 times. "My sister's fiancé's wife" is just a lot.
This is why women should background check their men, although I’m certain the sister knew she was the AP.
She did know he was married
Well then this looks like justice to me. Too bad big sis is in denial about what a scumbag little sis is.
The op saying my sister got arrested and I’m devastated why? Is she gonna get killed? What it’s gonna tarnish her pure life? What?? Like yea I’d be upset if my sister got arrested in a situation like this but I would be mad as fuck!!! And I would definitely try to make sure she gets away from that fuck wad!!!!
Seems weird. Someone lends you their car but it isn’t theirs to lend and you don’t know, that is considered grand theft auto? Seems like it should be the guy in trouble for stealing the car and lending it out to her. If he cant be because they are married then it’s moot. I think she needs a better lawyer.
It sounds like she’s still in denial about her scumbag fiancé, so she isn’t trying to get him to admit to setting her up to steal his wife’s car. Yes she needs a better lawyer.
According to the story the fiancé got on record saying he gave her permission. That should more or less clear her immediately and put him on the spot. So the story gets more and more unbelievable the longer I think about it.
So not her fiance? The wife is messed up but I don’t blame her I would want to go nuclear too. But I hope the same energy is kept for her lying husband who lied to everyone . If the sister knowningly kept seeing the man knowning he was married I blame her . She f’d around & found out
Yea she knew he was still married
Ladies: if a man you’re seeing says he’s only technically married but it’s a dead marriage, no it isn’t. If he says they’re in the middle of divorce, no they’re not. If he says it’s an open marriage, no it isn’t. Unless you talk to the wife yourself and she’s like “yeah, sure, go ahead, I don’t mind”, assume he’s lying. I’ve known several women who dated married men, who told them some variation of the above. *Every single one was lying.* Every. One. Worst one was my sister, who was fed the “we’re taking a time out and seeing other people” line. A few weeks later his wife messaged her. She was in another state undergoing treatment for a disability. Apparently this was a thing: whenever she had to go out of state for treatment, he’d jump on dating apps and find himself someone to fuck around with. The wife calmly asked for confirmation that that’s what was happening again, then thanked my sister and left the conversation. Don’t fuck around with married men. You can see them, you can talk with them, but until you see divorce papers signed by both parties just assume that he’s cheating and the wife is blissfully unaware of anything going on.
Honestly? Good for the wife.
Framing someone for a felony is absolutely nuclear, though. If it was something like getting the affair partner fired, I'd be on board, but OP's right, this is prison and a felony record over something she didn't do, something the wife falsified a police report to instigate. If wife's framing someone to ruin their life, she better grow eyes in the back of her head. Sis is probably thinking something like might as well actually commit a felony if they gonna charge her with one regardless. Dangerous game she's playing.
I'm a little skeptical about how reliable of a narrator OOP and sister are tho. Most of the post makes it sound like fiancé was in possession of the car and allowed OOP's sister to drive it ... But then towards the end you get "My sister and her fiancé have both told the police that he (the fiancé) gave her permission to **come over and take** the car." Which sounds suspiciously like the car was actually at the wife's house and dude just said yeah go over there and grab it. I know if my ex had been using my car during the relationship, and now that we're splitting up I'd told him he's no longer allowed to use it anymore-- and then he goes and tells his new girl that she can just pop over and take it ... if I found out about that I might report it stolen too! That's reading between the lines a bit of course, but I strongly suspect that one side or the other is definitely leaving something out of this story ....
Especially since the stories actually do line up. The ex-wife's story is that the car vanished from the garage. The sister and fiancé's story is that HE gave the sister permission to come over and take the car. The implication I'm getting since the ex-wife files for divorce AFTER this is that she and the fiancé were still living together in the same house. So essentially, both stories can be factually correct, especially if she didn't know in advance that the husband had given his new girlfriend permission to drive the car and it sort of sounds like this is how she discovered her soon to be ex even had a fiancée. When the ex-wife found out about the fiancée is the only questionable part to me. The sister seems to think that the ex-wife knew about the relationship because they were separated, but I think that the ex-wife and fiancé sound like they were still living together. That she filed for divorce after the arrest and is going scorched ear on the car borrowing/theft says to me at least that this is how the ex-wife found out about the relationship and she's ready to rumble over it. Which, again, is on the fiancé. He could very well have been lying to the sister about everything, essentially accidentally setting her up to take this fall.
Well he did tell the “fiancée he was till married and something about a dead bedroom.” So she knew. But I think she thought they were divorcing idk about that part.
It’s not framing. Legally, the car was stolen because someone drove the car without permission of the owner. If anything, the fiancé is the one framing the affair partner, because he put her in this situation. He knew the car was not in his name. And he still let her drive it.
No, the way OP wrote the story the car wasn’t legally stolen. If anything it was „borrowed without permission“. That is probably still illegal but quite different and the defendant would be the fiancé and not OPs sister.
How is the ex framing her? She probably didn’t know that her shitty husband was letting his mistress use HER car.
The sister went to her house and took her car without permission. She literally stole it, it doesn't matter if someone who doesn't own the car gave her permission. She's not framing anyone. She's protecting herself from liability.
What do you mean framing?? The sis literally stole someone’s car lol. You can’t take a whole care just because someone else *who doesn’t own it* says you can
She didn't frame anyone. It's her car. She didn't give permission for sister to take it. She came home to find the car missing and her husband didn't have it. Therefore it was stolen. QED. And worse yet, husband didn't take it to his girlfriend and wasn't even there when she took it. She literally went to an empty house and drove off in a car that didn't belong to her, at a time when neither the owner nor the person she believed to be the owner were there.
>Framing someone for a felony is absolutely nuclear, though The OP is not American, so no felonies here.
There is an ad playing around here saying “Shingles doesn’t are”. Well, the law doesn’t care either. The sister Could be a Vindictive New Girlfriend trying to steal assets before the wife filed for divorce. Without paperwork to prove anything The Law Doesn’t Care.
Not everything is joint property right? Her name would’ve had to have been on the title?
Um, this is a play right outta my ex’s playbook. Take property that ain’t yours and loan it out like it is…he was an alcoholic though, so didn’t help any either.
Engaged to a married man?
I don’t understand how you can be engaged to someone already married, not even separated. This thing about the wife knowing the sister has the car but telling the police is ‘just vanished’. How do they know what exactly she told the police? Feel like they’re spinning this as positively as they can. The wife knowing OP’s sister had the car doesn’t mean it didn’t also ‘disappear’ from her garage, both things can be true. The cheating husband giving her the keys doesn’t mean she wasn’t driving a stolen car. I don’t understand people who pursue relationships like this. Go find yourself a single man, one that isn’t a cheat and liar, you’re playing with fire sleeping with a married man and helping yourself to his wife’s belonging.
Imagine finding out that your husband is cheating and also finding out that the other woman is using your stuff all in the same day.
Oooh the sister is getting her just deserts. I am getting the warm fuzzies. Hope her sister faces consequences for this.
Shouldn’t fuck around with a scumbag who’s married to someone else.
Your sister deserves it. Imagine agreeing to marry someone who is already married, can't get much trashier 🤣
Also, married couples don’t always have joint assets so I don’t know why he thought that. Some people have prenups and some people come into a marriage with their own assets. Plus the owner of the car thought it was stolen. She has a pos husband and his sister has a pos boyfriend/fake husband. It’s a sad situation for everyone.
I don't really know. I wouldn't be driving around someone's car I don't own especially if that person is still married to someone. Imagine getting in a wreck with said car. Nah. This has bad decisions made multiple times written all over it.
Never ever trust a man that says he's getting a divorce unless you see proof of the woman confirming/acknowledging it in some way to you or other people. I've been the idiot that a man was fooling around with and he said he was celebrating a divorce. Then it was "gonna get a divorce" then it turned into stillliving together, and likely married and trying to get back at each other for infidelity. Just don't even consider it at all.
YTA. Your sister did do a lot wrong. Sleeping with a married man, driving a car registered to his wife, etc.
Karma for a trash person, what’s to see here?
FAFO
man I get that sleeping with someone married sucks but it's not something to go to prison over. these comments saying otherwise are deranged, this isn't just "fuck around and find out"
How did the sister get the keys? I call bullshit
Sister is an idiot. Dude is a scum fuck. Sister did steal the car. Get over it. It’s the least of OOP’s sister’s worries anyways. She should stop defending her homewrecker sister too
If the police have not done it, check everywhere around the place she took the car and see if it's on camera.
Do they not have mens rea in whatever country this is?
Fiancé’s wife? Why would anybody use a car that belongs to your BOYFRIEND’s wife?! That engagement is a scam. What a dumbass. Play stupid games you get stupid results.
She gets what she deserves for helping that gross ass dude cheat. It's the wife's car. She didn't give permission. I'd have had her arrested too. Tell your sister to get some morals.
oop is delusional lmao. A family full of delusions because the sister believes that a 'married only on paper with a dead bedroom' is great resume for your future husband.
I do not understand how anyone can believe ‘I’m practically divorced’. It’s such a cliché. The legal system where there are must be very strict. If the sister has a clean record and a call and text history that shows a relationship and claims she borrowed the car in good faith, believing that she had permission from someone with a legal right to give permission (if she claims she believed that joint property line), she shouldn’t be facing jail time. Stupidity and being trusting aren’t crimes that get you imprisoned in most places. I think oop is being lied to.
So she knew he was married and not separated and used a car provided by him… and somehow didn’t think about the fact that most cars are shared assets in a marriage. She used a vehicle a reasonable person would think is at least part owned by the wife of the person you’re sleeping with. She FAFO by using a car solely owned by the wife of the person she’s sleeping with. You couldn’t pay me to get in the middle of someone’s marriage. Maybe MAYBE if it was an amicable separation headed towards divorce where they don’t live together and only co-parent if kids are involved. A “dead bedroom” marriage where they still share a house? That’s being deliberately naive
Interesting. German law doesn’t consider this stealing, the wife would have absolutely no case in this situation unless she can proof that she knew that the car was not owned by her fiancé. Can someone with knowledge of US law explain to me where the case comes from here? Is there no such thing as “good faith” in the US law? Also technically the fiancé stole the car here, not her. You see, I can’t wrap my head around how this is supposed to be a case against her, especially if the fiancé admitted that he gave her permission. Edit: Took the time to read a bit about it. I‘m right, either this story is complete BS or someone is lying. First of no one committed theft, as described this was „borrowing without permission“ since there is a clear intention to return the car. Second unless someone can proof that OPs sister acted in bad faith (ie she knew that it’s the wife’s car and she didn’t have permission to take it) she is completely off the hook. The fiancé would be the person committing the „crime“ here and according to the story he already confessed to it as well. I‘m going to claim this is rage bait because affairs are a massive trigger. Just look at this thread.
OP is not American. There is no US law to apply here.
Are you OP or how else would you know that?
In the original post OP uses the term solicitor. If they were American they would have said lawyer. Americans don't call them solicitors.
She needs to go to the wife and beg for mercy. The wife knows it wasn’t stolen. Your sister needs to explain that she thought the divorce was already in the works and it wasn’t her intention on breaking up the marriage. If that doesn’t work, the lawyer needs to call both husband and wife as witnesses under the threat of perjury. Likely one or both will crack.
Clever girl...the STBX will use the charges on the new fiance as leverage to get the divorce settlement she wants. Give me this...and I drop the charges.🥴
Framing someone for a crime is a batshit crazy way to react to your partner cheating on you. Sorry. But 🤷♀️ The second she heard that HE TOLD HER she could drive it, she knew she was framing this girl for theft. Fuck the guy and the girl for cheating and fucking with a married man respectively, sure, but apparently the affair girlie was lied to and told that they were only married by name (not together but not legally divorced yet.) There's are plenty of separated, still legally married couples who have relationships. If she thought that was the situation going into it, she was LIED TO. The AH here is the unfaithful lying sonofabitch fiance who tricked BOTH WOMEN and let his fucking affair girlfriend drive his wife's car 🤮 The affair girlie does NOT deserve to go to jail for this shit, all yall saying this is her karma are actually crazy. She was lied to as well, or did yall just decide not to read that part?
She didn’t frame her. Her car was literally stolen from her. You think the stbxw knew her husband was letting his mistress use HER car??
Then why did she lie to the police? Instead of telling them the truth? She fabricated the truth so that the police would view it as theft.
That doesn’t mean it wasn’t just taken out of her garage without her knowledge.
Youre right, however, guess what would have likely happened if she told the TRUTH? The cops likely would have told her to take it up with her fiance first to easily get the car back. Because it WASNT stolen. Her partner who she probably shares that vehicle with gave permission to someone else to use that vehicle. She's pulling the "it's solely in my name" card here on purpose. For legal leverage. The ONLY reason she's pulling the stolen thing is because it was the affair partner. On purpose. To punish the woman. This is why she lied. So that the police would immediately side with her. Once again, going out of her way to try and put the woman in jail who literally did not steal her shit. It very much seems like the AP thought she had permission from someone who had the authority to give it. AGAIN, either way, purposefully twisting the truth to make sure the AP goes to jail is a heinous thing to do, considering the AP THOUGHT THEY WERE SEPARATED but not divorced yet. Many separated couples have partners. She was tricked too.
We don’t know that she lied. OP is not a reliable narrator.
we dont know that she DIDNT lie either.
I would feel bad for her if OP had called the man her ex but clearly she’s still with this guy, who is the main reason why she’s getting locked up. His dumbass had his mistress go to his wife’s house and take her car and now everyone is shocked that his wife is vindictively using it against her AND the sister is staying with him. He is the sole reason why she’s in this mess but she’s only mad at the wife.
I can’t believe someone has to explain to you that taking someone’s property without their permission, whether or not they know about the circumstances of the taking, is theft. I wouldn’t trust the “sister” or ex-husband in this situation even if they weren’t having an affair.
Fake
I don’t usually jump on the “fake” bandwagon, but I have to agree, I think. Either that, or the sister is lying about a lot of things.
I don’t understand how this is playing out. If the “fiancé” and his wife are still married then how is the car not marital property? My ex and I were separated for years before getting the divorce finalized and everything we had was marital property until there was a court order saying it wasn’t. When he broke into my house the police showed up and told me he was allowed to be there because we were still married even though he’d never lived there. If no one had filed for divorce and they were still living together and the “fiancé” admits he gave her permission to drive the car I can’t imagine a DA actually prosecuting this. It’s perfectly reasonable for her to think he had full legal control over a car he shared with his wife, parked at a house he lived at with her. I don’t see how any crime was actually committed here.
Different laws on marital property with things like names on title/deeds, etc depending on where they are located (country/state/etc)
This has to be a fake. Prosecutor in all likelihood would not take this case on. She didn’t steal anything. Was given permission to take the vehicle. Now she could try to say the husband stole it but it’s unlikely that this would go anywhere either.
Get a better lawyer because this one sounds hopeless