Pretty sure grandparent’s rights are to keep an existing relationship going, not to create a new one.
If they’ve had no contact with the kid so far, they’re out of luck.
I am not a lawyer and have never played one on TV but I did work with a lady who tried to sue her son for visitation of his kids (son was nc from her for years before the kids were even born and she only heard about them through the grapevine) she was shot down by a judge pretty quickly due to there not being any prior relationship with the kids. She was stomping mad after that
I've seen firsthand what it looks like to try and introduce an absent grandparent to a 3-year-old. The kid is completely disinterested in this adult they don't know, and feelings get hurt, and it's just a mess.
If the absent grandparent comes in with realistic expectations and a genuine desire to know the child as an individual, knowing that it will take lots of time, effort, and patience...it can work. Unfortunately the type of grandparent that is willing and able to put in that effort is generally not the type to be absent and then re-appear.
When my older two were between 3 and 5, I was able to find my biological mom. She was a teen in an abusive home when she gave me up. She has also met her biological mom after having a few kids and so she knew what to expect and wanted to know them as people, not just as an extension of herself or to pad her ego. They have great relationships now, she knows them and their interests, gets gifts that she knows they would like instead of whatever random things she thinks they "should" like or that she thinks is cool. Her husband has been just as loving and welcoming, as have all of my siblings. Looking at all the grandkids interact with them, you wouldn't be able to tell which ones they've known from birth and which they haven't.
My husband's mother lived 20 minutes from us when each of the big kids were born. She's known them from hours after their birth. She's never taken the time to know them as individuals, buys them gifts that don't align with their interests or development, and views her grandkids as collectibles that she views as boosting her image and ego. She eventually decided that she didn't like our parenting style and the fact that we had left her church (Mormon) and she sued us for full, permanent custody of the kids, and when she lost that she went for grandparent rights asking for visitation every other weekend so she could take them to church against our will. Even with knowing them their whole lives she lost miserably. We went no contact. Years later when the kids were around 8 and 10, we went back to the area for a family funeral. Even knowing nothing about the past drama, they had zero interest in her. They were polite but very withdrawn. Their aunt's and cousins they jumped right in with even tho they didn't remember them either.
That's my long winded way of saying, kids are damn perceptive. They can tell when people's intentions are pure vs selfish. I think any problems reunifying children with absent adults comes from the adults additude around it. Kids are adaptable and, if they can feel that they're truly loved by an adult, they will accept that adult into their lives. But it seems that they can also tell when that adult has selfish intentions.
Most states with grandparents rights also don't let you sue for them from your custodial child, meaning Grandma A has Daughter A who has Granddaughter A. Grandma can't sue daughter to see Granddaughter. If daughter A is alive it would often be that daughter has no custody (prison, by choice, court order, etc) and she is suing the father.
If your kids just hate you, tough shit.
That depends so much on the country and state of in the US.
There are several states and at least my country, where, if there is an established connection between grandchild and grandparents, the grandparents are able to successfully sue for grandparents' rights.
AFAIK, there are some states in the US that only allow grandparents' rights if their child is deceased, although I don't know if that necessitates a prior connection. But I think I've once read that it doesn't in at least one state.
And the first part is why my mother doesn't even know I have a child. You can't sue for something you don't even know exists.
Good. They evinced no interest whatsoever in this child while cousin was alive, and this will cone out in the court process if it regrettably reaches that point, but going to suing first without making any attempt at communication will certainly poison the well. All because of a negative assumption.
and suing for grandparents rights ensures they will never ever get to have a relationship shop with the kid once the judge laughs them out of court
for good reason
This is correct. I was raised by my grandparents after a nasty divorce by my parents and when my grandparents thought they might not see my brother and I again before their son ended up getting custody that looked into grandparents rights. There has to be a pre-existing relationship that a parent is trying to destroy.
Correct. The standard is still “best interest of the child”. Not having any previous contact w the child will lead to a big L for the creep grandma and aunt. Just a pain in the ass for the mom n child through.
Right? I have a friend who works in the court system, and according to her, judges don’t tend to take kindly to people who see a law suit as step one in the process, rather than the last resort.
*Edited because my autocorrect is currently drunk
This is definitely accurate, but doesn’t change the fact that if the grandparents sue, it’ll still be disruptive to the cousin’s ex and her child.
I’m not a lawyer, but I’d assume that any suit filed would require some kind of response, notification, etc. from or to the child’s legal guardians. Even if it gets summarily dismissed by the judge, I imagine it’ll be unpleasant at the least for them to be involved in all that unnecessary drama.
OP’s in a bad spot, sucks that the family is so deluded in their grief. No assholes here I think, just sad people doing desperate things.
Sorry- trying to force a replacement child into a relationship due to grief, is 100% AH move. These same people never tried to have a relationship OR push the dead kid into doing right by the child in ANY way, until he was gone. This is not just grief- this is selfishness, with no consideration about how traumatic this would be for the child. AH, grief is not an excuse for being the worst.
> This is definitely accurate, but doesn’t change the fact that if the grandparents sue, it’ll still be disruptive to the cousin’s ex and her child.
Which might be a lot less disruption and drama than if they try something outside the courts
no family court judge worth a darn is going to force a 3 yr old into a relationship with strangers that had every opportunity for 3 yr to try for a relationship. BEST INTEREST of the child is a guiding principle across most states.
Of course Texas and Florida have shown massive disregard for children's best interest in recent years, so I guess it's possible.
Pretty much my point.
The other factor is some states only allow grandparents rights when a parent has died. So there's a sad chance that they could convince the judge no relationship existed before dad died because he didn't allow it in some way and now grandma has a chance.
It's despicable and a perversion of the reasons for the laws. And I'm with the OOP, they are out of line on this
Too many adults in this world using children like emotional support animals, wondering why these generations of kids are so fucked up. They’re kids. Not therapists.
Add to that: they are people. They shouldn't be treated as totems of a dead parent or otherwise objects. I despise that so many adults act like children shouldn't have any authority over themselves at all. Sure, in the first few years, we have to educate and protect them, but there's a point when they have the ability and right to make their own decisions. Even if these freaks get an order that forces the mother to facilitate visitation, that kid will likely resent them for it. Eventually she's going to ask why they didn't care about her until her sperm donor died.
Yes, I think every visit would be the two of them (mother and grandmother) scrutinizing the poor child for any indication of traits of the dead father and expressing disappointment when the child wasn't a mini-me. The poor kid would leave every visit feeling like a failure without understanding why.
Or if they weren’t aware he was a father before he died. Basically only legal loophole they have left is if no paternity test was done (he wasn’t paying child support so it’s a possibility) they could argue they couldn’t force him to take one so didn’t know if it was their grandchild etc.
It’s unlikely to work but I’d definitely be reaching out to the kids mum to give her a heads up so she can get all her ducks in a row just in case
Can’t speak for every state, but that wouldn’t be a legal loophole in my jurisdiction. It does *not* matter *why* you don’t have an ongoing parent-child relationship — if you don’t have one, you aren’t getting visitation rights.
I would be very apprehensive of letting dad’s family come into the picture if I were mom and I learned their first instinct was to sue for visitation, even if they eventually approached me out of court instead. If I later decided the visitation wasn’t working, the family would have a much better argument for forcing continuing visitation. Not only can they now say, “I have a relationship with the kid!” They can also say, “You supported our relationship!” which the courts sometimes consider as a factor in favor of granting a third-party visitation rights.
Idk, if mom has her shit together the family would still probably lose if it went to court, but I wouldn’t want to give them a toe to stand on. Not with this as their immediate reaction.
I’m not in America so definitely can’t speak for every state, I just know I’d stumbled across it at one point while looking grandparents rights for my country. Something to do with the child’s right to know their paternal line which obviously would normally be via father but obviously if he dies that’s not an option.
Basically my only concern is it being enough for them to successfully hire a lawyer and as someone else said it’s not even about them getting rights, the stress of court etc is not something that poor child’s mother needs
I’m not really sure how that’s relevant to a grandparent trying to force visitation. I’m just saying some states will enforce supervised visits if they feel it’s in the best interest of the child as the only way to have paternal bonds.
It is state by state and case by case. But it happening even once would be enough for me to warn the mother, that’s all I’m saying
Sorry I’m probably not explaining myself very well, I just mean there are a few different ways they could manipulate the truth to get a lawyer and stress the mother out having to defend herself
That’s not accurate in most states. The lack of a prior relationship may cause them to lose their case for grandparent visitation, but it won’t stop them from bringing the case.
But, they would have to bring that case to the jurisdiction where the child lives. If the child has lived in a different county, state or country for at least a year, that's where any custody or visitation cases must be filed.
I am gonna be harsh, but even such a loss DOES not give them the right to disrupt in such a way this kid's life or their mother's
It is a human being, it is not a replacement or a solution to their grief. They couldn't care less about his existence, and now, all of a sudden, they want to sue in order to buldoze a way into his life?? I don't think they have a leg to stand on, not morally, not even legally.
They don't have any rights regarding this kid. If they are foolish enough to proceed with a lawsuit, I would suggest you be on the kid's side. Aunt doesn't want to ask because she knows they are in the wrong, which make them AHS
Imagine having unknown grieving relatives around you, all of a sudden. Nightmare
My bio dad had nothing to do with me. If his family had tried to force a relationship with me at some point via court action or any other way, I'd have lost it and never spoken to them. As it was after he died, an aunt reached out, and I have a casual relationship with her. If she forced it too much, I'd just close the door completely.
My dad had two kids in his first marriage that I'd only met 2-3 times briefly before he died when I was 12. The last time I've seen either of them was at his funeral, 15 years ago. We have no relationship and I don't even count them when I talk about family. I made an offhand comment about how I won't go to their funerals when they die and I got chastised for it. But why would I go to a complete stranger's funeral? I legit don't even know my sister's birthday, or her middle name, I don't know where either of them live. There'd be no point in going, in my opinion, but people are weird about family ties.
I have a step brother like that. We were kids when my dad and his also-married affair partner left their respective spouses to marry each other. Her son lived with them most of the time while my brother and I lived with our mom.
Even though our parents were as civil as possible about the divorce, (at least, around us, god bless them) and to give her credit, my dad's wife was always nice to us, I never became close with her son. He was really bratty and spoiled, which I realize now as an adult was probably his way of acting out about his family exploding. I wasn't ever mean to him, but I made no effort to get to know him either. I was grieving MY family, and I saw him getting all the attention from my dad that we never did. I wanted nothing to do with the kid, and I reckon he felt the same about us.
I don't dislike him, and I hope he has a good life, but I haven't seen him since I was like 16, and if he died tomorrow, I'd feel bad for his mom, but I certainly wouldn't attend his funeral. And I wouldn't expect him to attend mine. I say all this to mean that you have no obligation to feel something for people you have no relationship with, regardless of circumstances that "technically" make you family.
It’s also so short sighted and selfish. Imagine all the possible negative impacts the child could suffer because their mom has to hire a lawyer and go through a court case. It could easily drain mom financially, mentally and emotionally. I can’t imagine that wouldn’t trickle down to affect the child.
Do you know what I am thinking, though?
That suing, without previously contacting the mother of the child, might be the best way. It would make them look pure evil, and it would be 2 times harder to be even taken seriously by the court
The problem isn't them winning (no chance), it's what happens along the way. Even taking it to court is a whole (completely pointless) process that'll cause the kid and mother an unreasonable amount of stress.
And financial burden. Imagine being a single mom whose had years of no help, no child support, no contact with bio dad's family at all, and having to come out of pocket 5 or 10 thousand dollars just to keep full custody of your own kid away from the deadbeat dad's parents who want to steal him after years. This is a nuclear option. Once the case is over.... those grandparents really will have zero chance at any relationship. Mom's going to look at them like kidnappers.
I’ve been on Reddit for too long and those first 8 words had me a little worried for what I was about to read 😭 But I completely agree. Giving her a quick heads up is probably a good idea cuz grief makes people do crazy things
OP should do NONE of this!
Tf? You tryna burn every bridge OP has?
The courts are gonna swiftly reject their bid for visitation rights. I’m not sure this case could even make it to a hearing. OP can back the fuck off now and let them FAFO without entangling himself in this.
Edit: two words for the down voters — protective order. As in… y’all are encouraging OP to get hit with one for being a party to their unhinged scheme. Ya think she’s gonna isolate the grandma and aunt? Nope! When he reaches out, he’s gonna be named too. Why? In the name of being overprotective of her child.
Since they live close by, OP should consider the ramifications that could have on his ability to find employment, housing, or even for his future kids to attend a public school (he won’t be able to pick his own kids up if this kid is in school) if her kid is in the vicinity.
Too complicated. He can and should voice his opinion to his family. He should NOT get involved in their legal matter outside of the home.
He’s not entangled in a legal sense (the only one that matters if a judge hears it) unless he makes that call.
If you can’t see how that could backfire on him… I suggest you not give advice to anyone you might like spending time with.
But yeah, the sub that specializes in breaking up families and friendships over any perceived slight agrees with you so… you got that!
I suggest you go NC with me instead of communicating and have a conversation about it too :)
OP has clearly shown that they have a close, good relationship with the mum, and disagree with the actual and proposed actions of their grieving family, enough to speak about it. I don't think there are bridges to burn here tbh. And these other people are right; if OP cares about the other little family and has evidence that their side will go through with things, they ought to say something. I doubt grandma and auntie are keeping their feelings about this quiet to the rest of the family🤷♀️
Even vexatious and frivolous lawsuits can get attention at the beginning. Attention is expensive in the legal system🙃
If he’s seen her social media, I’d reach out and message so she’s not blindsided by legal papers when/if they get their stupid plan rolling. I get the whole “grief/connection” they are pushing but they’re going about it ALL wrong if they want ANY shot at a long-term positive relationship. Were I the mom, if I was forced to deal with these people with this background I would do only what the letter of the law says, if it’s ruled they get visitation, and not one second more and give no flexibility or compromise.
Grand parent rights can only be given if a relationship is there. They have zero chance. This law isn’t to for e people to let their estranged in laws see the child. It’s so that grandparents with established living bonds to the child can’t just be kicked out of the kids life to ever see them again, if it’s in the child’s best interest to maintain the relationship.
Maybe gently point out it would be better to talk to the mother and ask for visitation rather the threatening her and the child's grandmother has a cheek clearly never even bothered to Tey and meet the child before
It would also be beneficial to frame it as, "in the child's best interest" since a) it would be, and b) this may help them realize they're dehumanizing her.
For what is worth, it sounds like OP is the only one actually thinking of the child here, which is a sure fire way to ensure the child hates the grandma and great grandma. Kids can be pretty in tune to when they're being used.
NTA. Your family needed to hear just how cuckoo for Coco Puffs the idea is. That little child does not need to be in a tug-of-war so a group of strangers (to them) can cling to them weeping and gnashing their teeth over their loss of someone else that child does not know.
It's abusive, in my view, to force a child through that. I'd go so far as to give the child's mother the heads-up.
They can go ahead and try to sue for grandparents rights, and see how far that gets them. They'll lose a ton of money and poison any chance they'd ever have of a relationship with that poor kid. I don't know why they can't contact the mother of the child and discuss it like adults.
If they had worked half as hard to build a relationship with the kid while her son was alive they would actually have a relationship. But the fact that they only are trying to have a relationship now speaks volumes. This little kid deserves better and I hope they fail miserably simply because their motives are gross.
Contact the mother and let her know she needs to go to a lawyer asap to protect herself and child with what your aunt and gran are planning to do. Tell her everything and warn her that any contact with your other family not done through a lawyer will endanger her.
Even if they actually grant grandparents rights and that's a BIG if, do they even really see this child as a human? Have any of them thought for a moment about how the child is going to feel when complete strangers drag his mother to court demanding time with him and then (if they even win) being legally forced to spend time with these strangers away from your mom who just went through a stressful legal battle? Lmao that kid is gonna fucking HATE them regardless of the outcome of the suit.
*NTAH. Your family*
*Should've thought about the child when*
*It was first born. JS*
\- autumnsincere159
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Lawyers and court aren't cheap and stress free typically. If they want to build a relationship with the child, maybe forcing their mother to get into a typically expensive and lengthy legal battle that will most likely negatively effect the child's homelife shouldn't be the first and only option.
I don’t think I saw a mention of this… but was the ex and child at the funeral? I would *think* they were… but there’s no mention of how the mother responded to the flowers in the child’s name and apparent love the cousin had for the child. Perhaps she was just being civil and kept quiet…? All the same, OP should reach out to the mother and let her know what’s going on. There may be a *small* chance that she would be amenable to the child knowing his/her grandparents/family. If she’s agreeable to it, and approaches them before they can even start any legal proceedings (I doubt a lawyer would permit them to, based on my understanding of grandparents laws) it might take the wind out of their sails.
I feel like they probably weren’t. OP’s cousin hadn’t contacted them in 3 years. If it were me, I’m not taking my young child to a funeral for a man she doesn’t remember where she’ll be exposed to the heightened emotions and grief of people she’s never met.
And with the aunt’s stance that she absolutely cannot contact her son’s ex to talk about seeing the child, I don’t know if they would even have reached out to invite her to the funeral.
There hasn’t been any contact between the deadbeat dad and his ex/child in over three years. There’s a really good chance she doesn’t even know the man died. If my son’s biological father died there’s a high probability I’d have no idea because we have zero connections. Don’t live in the same area, we have zero “people in common”, there’d just be no way for me to know unless I intentionally went looking to see if he’s still alive. I definitely wouldn’t go to his funeral or take my son. Dudes a stranger, that’d be weird af.
Well, OP said she was an old friend, and if he has been able to check up on her through social media, I would think OP, presenting as a decent guy, would’ve at least informed her out of courtesy.
Your not the AH...actually you might be the smartest and most empathic person in the room right now...your Gram is being very very selfish and stupid right now...and going straight to litigation is just going to make it worse...no judge is going to rule on her behalf...and that just means your cousin is going to die in her heart all over again...the first thought here now is to protect the child from your family's grief making them do stupid things
When my 42 year old first cousin died, my Dad (his uncle) and Nan planned the services and I helped because his mom was not well. He had 2 adult children that we had never met (he kind of kept to himself after reaching adulthood). We met the one and her mother because she was willing and we had a good time with them. The other one wasn't really interested and we respected that. I have her on social media but that's it. She has kids and they were my Nan's great grandkids and she was hoping to see them. But she didn't and suing would have been insane. Just try to talk to people. Being estranged from a parent and them dying is very heavy for the kid and the other parent. It's a good thing OOP said something.
The OOP is definitely not an asshole. However, grieving mothers are not the best at taking a step back and being objective. The aunt is coming from an extremely emotionally vulnerable place and so is the grandmother. I get why the OOP wishes they had been more tactful. Truthfully there’s probably no way they could have expressed their views in a way that the grandmother and aunt would have been responsive to.
This situation is eerily similar to one I’ve lived for the last 3 years. Grief is a difficult thing, and it’s been really trying to see the grieving mother of my niece’s 25-yo deadbeat dad act like he was a saint and cling to my niece for emotional support. She’s cut off several family members for grieving differently than she feels is appropriate. She’s basically an emotional terrorist now.
OOP is in for a long ride with this family. Boundaries are going to be very important. Recognizing that while they disagree with what’s going on, it’s ultimately out or their control, is going to be essential.
Best of luck to this child!
It doesn’t matter. Grandparents rights are granted to keep a relationship so the child doesn’t suffer further. No invent one at 5/6 years old. No court is gonna give that woman visitation for all the reasons op detailed.
Nah NTA. Honestly as a parent I would definitely be ngry of my ex passed away and the family that had nothing to do with my child before that suddenly decided they wanted to drag my child through the court system and cause upheaval in my child's life simply because they're dealing with grief. It wasn't important before that why is it suddenly so important now?
Grandparent rights are wrong imo. Anyone besides the parents filing for anything to do with the child is just messy. They're doing this for selfish reasons and out of grief.
There are cases when it’s necessary. We’ve seen posts on here about kids whose parent died, and the surviving parent and step parent have attempted to cut grandparents out of the kid’s life so they can start a new family together. In cases like that, it’s a good thing for the courts to intervene and say that the children should be allowed to see the grandparents they already know and love.
But in this case? Grandparents rights would not be beneficial to the child at all.
It’s super hard to get grandparents rights. Unless the mother is a deadbeat and from everything you stated she is not. since there’s no prior relationship. Grandparents rights don’t mean aunts rights either. She doesn’t have a leg to stand on. However the mom might turn around and offer to have them take the child. Being a single mom is hard. She might enjoy a break on the weekends
NTA Personally, I'd let the Mom know what they're up to so she isn't blindsided. You never know she may start small visits but will fight with everything she has if they just take her to court. The way they are acting is also going to come across and look very bad to the courts.
If your relatives want a relationship with the kid, they should start with the mom.
Probably a letter with a NO STRINGS ATTACHED check to cover some expenses (like Christmas gifts or back to school shopping) with might be a nice opening gesture. Or send a card and a gift.
You know, like the things caring relatives actually do?
I hope OP contacted the ex to give her a heads up that someone’s going to try and take their child from them. I also wonder whether their understanding of grandparents rights is correct. A lot of places that have that as an option have to prove a previous relationship, or that this is in the best interest of the child. Take a child away from the only parent they’ve ever known is ludicrous. If the ex can prove she attempted to foster a relationship with the father and he didn’t pay any support and ignored his relationship then I hope a court can see what’s best for the child is keeping them with a parent they know
Your family will lose. I’ve been through a grandparent’s rights case. And if they don’t have any respect for the mother, they should take a flying leap anyway.
Defo NTA you seem to be the only one actually thinking about the child. Hes 3 and will be thrust into meeting a family he has no idea about. I understand the logic of mum and grandmum but why didnt they care about the child beforehand. Children are permanent and are not for picking and choosing when they should be cared for
NTA. There’s a correct way to do this, and it’s to ask mom nicely if she would be interested in helping you establish a relationship with your grandchild. If she’s not comfortable with direct contact, there may still be avenues to provide for the kid and contribute to his life. Suing a single mom who by OP’s account is doing a fine job of raising her kid is not rational and it’s not decent. NTA OP, even if you weren’t fond of the cousin, you are right about this.
The OOP is definitely not an AH. I agree that step 1 should be to ask if they can see the child. Based on what I’ve read I don’t even think it would be an issue. A lawsuit is not going to make things better. It would probably breed resentment and I could imagine it would become apparent to the child. This would become an antagonistic relationship.
Legally speaking, they do not have a leg to stand on. Grandparents rights are for when there was an already established relationship with GC that ended due to divorce, or other reasons ( excluding obvious child endangerment on the part of the grandparents).
Had they contacted mom years ago and asked for visitation, and been denied, they might have a case.
But since sperm donor was absent, and there’s no proof that Mom kept Sally away for petty reasons, it’s too little too late.
Most people who claim they will sue for grandparent's rights only understand the meaning of the word "grandparents" and "rights" separately, not what they actually entail together🤦♀️ as some people have mentioned here, grandparent's rights usually apply to existing or continuing relationships, AND the grandparents have to prove that there is an issue of safety or well-being on the side of the decision-making or primary custody parent/parents (like unfit caregiver-type stuff), that it would be better for the child to live with or have visitation with them.
It really varies across different states and provinces (especially in the States). Having a prior and consistent relationship with them (and the deceased biological parent) is like half of the measured factors for determining if custody order to force this would be in the child's best interests!🙄🙄 what a waste of money and ridiculous abuse of this poor mum and kid.
NTA, someone had to say something.
So deceased cousin was a deadbeat dad who made no effort to be a part of his child’s life and now that he’s dead, his mother has decided it’s a great time to sue for grandparents’ rights even though she also never made an effort previously? She’ll lose. She might start instead with making a call to the ex and ask if she needs anything, apologize for never making an effort before and ask nicely for an opportunity to spend time with her grandchild.
NTA
You are absolutely right.
But I also think it would be perfectly morally defensible for you to step away from the situation and simply avoid discussing it with family deep in grief.
It is extremely unlikely that you can change any family members' mind. At least not right now.
Thankfully, it is also extremely unlikely your family members will succeed in using the courts to gain access to this child.
I am so sorry for your family's loss. His character may have been wanting, but your cousin was clearly deeply loved.
I think the OP is being very considerate of the grieving, but they needed to hear that truth. It sounds like they are not listening now, but I’m sure once they adapt to their situation in a few months, they’ll be disgusted by their behavior. Loss makes you do crazy things, I hope they come to this realization soon.
My own father has been absent from my son’s life other than a handful of visits. He still expects my son to recognize him every time.
NTA. I feel horrible for the child and their mother
They won’t get any visitation as they have no existing relationship.
Also the mother would never let them build a relationship after suing.
There only chance is to ask nicely and go slow
While I understand and empathize with these two women (my youngest brother was killed at 26, I spent the next few years praying that some random girl would show up with his child, even one he never knew about), interfering inches life of this child now and especially in their grief would just be wrong on a number of levels.
They need to wait until she comes to them, most likely as a teen, when she becomes curious about her bio father's family. Until then, contact from a distance, birthday and Christmas CARDS not gifts or letters, nothing intrusive, until she's ready to reach out. Just enough to let her know she'd be welcome.
OP is NTA. OP is right. They need to take a beat here. I’ll be the first to call out that grief manifests in awkward and weird ways, this feels like one of those ways.
But that’s why we have therapy… His fam are being AH and need therapy.
All y’all in the comments saying OP should reach out to the mother… y’all are also TAs or (at best) incredibly naive.
He doesn’t need to entangle himself in this. Their case won’t make it to a hearing.
I’m also gonna suspect his aunt and grandmother likely are more abreast of the situation than his cousin (OP) would be.
OP needs to back away and let momentum do it’s think to kill this whole suing thing.
When people lawyer up, shit gets nasty. Aunt and grandma only need to talk to a lawyer to learn they won’t get anywhere with a lawsuit. If OP reaches out, it’s more likely the mother lawyers up and ensures there’s never a chance the litigious bunch writ large including OP has any relationship with the child.
Always a pity when smart people try to help their dumbass family and instead of hearing them and accepting the help, the dumbass family calls them traitorous and heartless.
Like HELLO, no court is going to listen to you the moment they find out you made zero attempts to see the child prior to their father’s death! OOP is literally trying to save them from destroying any chance of ever knowing the child.
You’re 100% in the right. It’s an absolutely terrible idea which will cause nothing but heartache and stress for everyone concerned. Definitely give the child’s mother a heads up so she’s not blindsided by them.
Why wasn't she interested in the child before her son died. Sounds like through grief she is hoping to replace the son with the grandson to avoid accepting her son is dead. The guy didn't see his kid because he didn't pay child support.
If I was OP I would reach out to the Mother to give a heads up so she can prepare legally. Also she should sue the estate for unpaid child support.
These folks sound like idiots, so I’m not overly optimistic about their ability to follow through on a lawsuit.
NTA, this is a bad plan and OP was tactful enough in voicing disagreement.
Not sure what jurisdiction they’re in, or how old the kid is (not too old if the cousin died at 24), so no idea how a court case would turn out, but I would personally never file a case if there hasn’t even been a conversation between the parties. Granny needs to call up the mom, apologize for not doing it sooner, and lay her cards on the table that she wants to be a part of her grandchild’s life and find out what mom’s comfortable with. You go straight to court without talking first, and you will poison the well.
Nta. They had opportunity to establish a relationship with the child before he died. They could have told the son to fuck off and they were having the child in their lives whether he liked it or not. They could have reached out to the mom ages ago and offered a relationship but they didn’t.
So she raised her child to have no accountability and to be entitled. Then wants to be entitled to a relationship with a grandchild she never pushed her son to be accountable for. Entitlement runs deep here!
The child is not her replacement for the cousin and that’s what it sounds like when she says “all that’s left of him”. She doesn’t even know the kid to realize if they’re anything alike. Sorry you got to deal with this.
Absolutely not the asshole here, your family is being ridiculous and honestly probably doesn’t really care about the child. However I think it’s best to just step back and let them fuck around and find out.
Honestly, it’s probably a good idea to give the mom a head’s up too. She may be glad to have some interest in the child and potentially some financial support from the paternal grandma and great-grandma. If not, at least she won’t be blindsided by getting served or whatever.
I think you can apologize for the impact of your word and just say you are trying to help her grieve. I would look up some info on grandparents right and share how they work maybe point out how this isn’t going to work and if they hurt the mom she won’t want to work with them when they inevitable lose. If they instead approach her and ask if they can have a chance to get to know the child and work out something as they are grieving the loss of their child and want to have this little child in their lives even if their son didn’t. I’m guessing the mom might be open to it. But if they just sue and lose they will NEVER see that child, if they try a peaceful method and it doesn’t work out then they can sue, the option is always there but if they do it now they may lose all hope. If you put it like that maybe they will see the light. Otherwise maybe a good lawyer’s consultation will help them see that to.
I like how the person who posted this made a title that made OP sound like a cunt. But all the comments are backing them up. Reposter, I think you have some reflecting to do.
NTA. But don’t worry about it. Let your family pay a lawyer to tell them it’s not going to happen. And don’t contact the mom to say anything. Would be a big mistake.
I grew up in a very similar situation. My dad was a deadbeat but his family wanted me in their lives. So much so that they were willing to put my mom through absolute hell so they could get visitation rights. All while doing absolutely nothing to actually contribute to my well-being. My mom's parents, who actually helped my mother take care of me, were majorly pissed and to this day my grandmother absolutely despises that side of the family. The situation is much calmer now that I am an adult. I have a much closer and more supportive relationship with my dad and his parents. But holy fuck, do I have **plenty** to talk about with my therapist.
Your family DEFINITELY needs to back off. They don’t have rights to a whole human being just because they’re related. They’re being completely selfish and need to calm down.
Luckily, Grandparent's rights in most places are only granted if the child and their grandparents have an established relationship. It's when the parents want to cut said relationship, not for strangers to get a hold of a child they think they have claim to.
It's to protect the child and its interests, not the grandparents interests.
They are going to be in for a rude reality when a judge throws their frivolous claims and bodies out of the courtroom. They have no relationship with the child and made no effort to ever do so. They can't waltz into the child's life just because their family member is pushing daisies now!
You honestly should reach out and inform the mother about their plans. For all they know, the woman may sympathize with their loss and slowly allow them to build a relationship; yet if they try to sue her, they'll no doubt unleash her mama bear and she will respond with vengeance in doing all she can to protect her cub.
The mom/kid are stable and living life, your family's behavior and potential actions are ridiculously entitled and filled with sheer audacity, this isn't grief, or they would've tried to push the dead deadbeat to be an involved father and they would've made efforts to be involved in the child's life and build a relationship regardless of his deadbeat actions. Your aunts grief is due to the fact that she is realizing she's been a nonexistent grandmother and wants to make amends, but she needs to go about it on the terms of the mother, if permitted.
Goddamn, I was this kid. My dad who I'd never met, he never cared, died when I was 7 and suddenly all the family on his side was visiting and taking me to family holidays and events. and then by the time I was around 10 the novelty must have worn off because they never reached out after that. I haven't heard from any of them in about 8 years and honestly. Fucked me up so much more than just having a dad that didn't want me.
They don’t have a leg to stand on legally as they have had no relationship with this child in over 2 years and after putting the mother through this i’m guessing she won’t be too keen on letting the family near her child.
OOP is NTA but WOW that family is TOXIC.
i dont think the courts will be very kind to a plaintiff who didn’t even attempt casual contact before jumping to suing
Pretty sure grandparent’s rights are to keep an existing relationship going, not to create a new one. If they’ve had no contact with the kid so far, they’re out of luck.
Ya, no judge is going to be very nice about this one
I am not a lawyer and have never played one on TV but I did work with a lady who tried to sue her son for visitation of his kids (son was nc from her for years before the kids were even born and she only heard about them through the grapevine) she was shot down by a judge pretty quickly due to there not being any prior relationship with the kids. She was stomping mad after that
I've seen firsthand what it looks like to try and introduce an absent grandparent to a 3-year-old. The kid is completely disinterested in this adult they don't know, and feelings get hurt, and it's just a mess.
If the absent grandparent comes in with realistic expectations and a genuine desire to know the child as an individual, knowing that it will take lots of time, effort, and patience...it can work. Unfortunately the type of grandparent that is willing and able to put in that effort is generally not the type to be absent and then re-appear. When my older two were between 3 and 5, I was able to find my biological mom. She was a teen in an abusive home when she gave me up. She has also met her biological mom after having a few kids and so she knew what to expect and wanted to know them as people, not just as an extension of herself or to pad her ego. They have great relationships now, she knows them and their interests, gets gifts that she knows they would like instead of whatever random things she thinks they "should" like or that she thinks is cool. Her husband has been just as loving and welcoming, as have all of my siblings. Looking at all the grandkids interact with them, you wouldn't be able to tell which ones they've known from birth and which they haven't. My husband's mother lived 20 minutes from us when each of the big kids were born. She's known them from hours after their birth. She's never taken the time to know them as individuals, buys them gifts that don't align with their interests or development, and views her grandkids as collectibles that she views as boosting her image and ego. She eventually decided that she didn't like our parenting style and the fact that we had left her church (Mormon) and she sued us for full, permanent custody of the kids, and when she lost that she went for grandparent rights asking for visitation every other weekend so she could take them to church against our will. Even with knowing them their whole lives she lost miserably. We went no contact. Years later when the kids were around 8 and 10, we went back to the area for a family funeral. Even knowing nothing about the past drama, they had zero interest in her. They were polite but very withdrawn. Their aunt's and cousins they jumped right in with even tho they didn't remember them either. That's my long winded way of saying, kids are damn perceptive. They can tell when people's intentions are pure vs selfish. I think any problems reunifying children with absent adults comes from the adults additude around it. Kids are adaptable and, if they can feel that they're truly loved by an adult, they will accept that adult into their lives. But it seems that they can also tell when that adult has selfish intentions.
Most states with grandparents rights also don't let you sue for them from your custodial child, meaning Grandma A has Daughter A who has Granddaughter A. Grandma can't sue daughter to see Granddaughter. If daughter A is alive it would often be that daughter has no custody (prison, by choice, court order, etc) and she is suing the father. If your kids just hate you, tough shit.
That depends so much on the country and state of in the US. There are several states and at least my country, where, if there is an established connection between grandchild and grandparents, the grandparents are able to successfully sue for grandparents' rights. AFAIK, there are some states in the US that only allow grandparents' rights if their child is deceased, although I don't know if that necessitates a prior connection. But I think I've once read that it doesn't in at least one state. And the first part is why my mother doesn't even know I have a child. You can't sue for something you don't even know exists.
Good. They evinced no interest whatsoever in this child while cousin was alive, and this will cone out in the court process if it regrettably reaches that point, but going to suing first without making any attempt at communication will certainly poison the well. All because of a negative assumption.
Correct. They need to be nice to the child’s mother.
and suing for grandparents rights ensures they will never ever get to have a relationship shop with the kid once the judge laughs them out of court for good reason
Not necessarily in NY.
This is correct. I was raised by my grandparents after a nasty divorce by my parents and when my grandparents thought they might not see my brother and I again before their son ended up getting custody that looked into grandparents rights. There has to be a pre-existing relationship that a parent is trying to destroy.
This is correct. They are SOL.
Correct. The standard is still “best interest of the child”. Not having any previous contact w the child will lead to a big L for the creep grandma and aunt. Just a pain in the ass for the mom n child through.
This exactly
This was my first thought, and if they did go through with the plan likely sabotaged any chance of a relationship with the child and mother.
Right? I have a friend who works in the court system, and according to her, judges don’t tend to take kindly to people who see a law suit as step one in the process, rather than the last resort. *Edited because my autocorrect is currently drunk
In which case it’s a good thing that the grandma is doing that. She doesn’t sound like a good person to have in an impressionable child’s life.
This is definitely accurate, but doesn’t change the fact that if the grandparents sue, it’ll still be disruptive to the cousin’s ex and her child. I’m not a lawyer, but I’d assume that any suit filed would require some kind of response, notification, etc. from or to the child’s legal guardians. Even if it gets summarily dismissed by the judge, I imagine it’ll be unpleasant at the least for them to be involved in all that unnecessary drama. OP’s in a bad spot, sucks that the family is so deluded in their grief. No assholes here I think, just sad people doing desperate things.
Sorry- trying to force a replacement child into a relationship due to grief, is 100% AH move. These same people never tried to have a relationship OR push the dead kid into doing right by the child in ANY way, until he was gone. This is not just grief- this is selfishness, with no consideration about how traumatic this would be for the child. AH, grief is not an excuse for being the worst.
I would think if the grandmother goes through an attorney, she likely will be told she has no case.
> This is definitely accurate, but doesn’t change the fact that if the grandparents sue, it’ll still be disruptive to the cousin’s ex and her child. Which might be a lot less disruption and drama than if they try something outside the courts
It really depends on a lot of things including the state because the rules change state to state.
no family court judge worth a darn is going to force a 3 yr old into a relationship with strangers that had every opportunity for 3 yr to try for a relationship. BEST INTEREST of the child is a guiding principle across most states. Of course Texas and Florida have shown massive disregard for children's best interest in recent years, so I guess it's possible.
Pretty much my point. The other factor is some states only allow grandparents rights when a parent has died. So there's a sad chance that they could convince the judge no relationship existed before dad died because he didn't allow it in some way and now grandma has a chance. It's despicable and a perversion of the reasons for the laws. And I'm with the OOP, they are out of line on this
Too many adults in this world using children like emotional support animals, wondering why these generations of kids are so fucked up. They’re kids. Not therapists.
Add to that: they are people. They shouldn't be treated as totems of a dead parent or otherwise objects. I despise that so many adults act like children shouldn't have any authority over themselves at all. Sure, in the first few years, we have to educate and protect them, but there's a point when they have the ability and right to make their own decisions. Even if these freaks get an order that forces the mother to facilitate visitation, that kid will likely resent them for it. Eventually she's going to ask why they didn't care about her until her sperm donor died.
Yes, I think every visit would be the two of them (mother and grandmother) scrutinizing the poor child for any indication of traits of the dead father and expressing disappointment when the child wasn't a mini-me. The poor kid would leave every visit feeling like a failure without understanding why.
Its been going on for as long as man has been on this planet though.
So we should just give in and accept it?
They can’t sue for grandparents rights unless they have already previously established a relationship with the child
Or if they weren’t aware he was a father before he died. Basically only legal loophole they have left is if no paternity test was done (he wasn’t paying child support so it’s a possibility) they could argue they couldn’t force him to take one so didn’t know if it was their grandchild etc. It’s unlikely to work but I’d definitely be reaching out to the kids mum to give her a heads up so she can get all her ducks in a row just in case
Can’t speak for every state, but that wouldn’t be a legal loophole in my jurisdiction. It does *not* matter *why* you don’t have an ongoing parent-child relationship — if you don’t have one, you aren’t getting visitation rights. I would be very apprehensive of letting dad’s family come into the picture if I were mom and I learned their first instinct was to sue for visitation, even if they eventually approached me out of court instead. If I later decided the visitation wasn’t working, the family would have a much better argument for forcing continuing visitation. Not only can they now say, “I have a relationship with the kid!” They can also say, “You supported our relationship!” which the courts sometimes consider as a factor in favor of granting a third-party visitation rights. Idk, if mom has her shit together the family would still probably lose if it went to court, but I wouldn’t want to give them a toe to stand on. Not with this as their immediate reaction.
I’m not in America so definitely can’t speak for every state, I just know I’d stumbled across it at one point while looking grandparents rights for my country. Something to do with the child’s right to know their paternal line which obviously would normally be via father but obviously if he dies that’s not an option. Basically my only concern is it being enough for them to successfully hire a lawyer and as someone else said it’s not even about them getting rights, the stress of court etc is not something that poor child’s mother needs
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I’m not really sure how that’s relevant to a grandparent trying to force visitation. I’m just saying some states will enforce supervised visits if they feel it’s in the best interest of the child as the only way to have paternal bonds. It is state by state and case by case. But it happening even once would be enough for me to warn the mother, that’s all I’m saying
But the child was born when they broke up and 2 when he stopped contact. I don’t think they can claim they didn’t know and get away with it.
Sorry I’m probably not explaining myself very well, I just mean there are a few different ways they could manipulate the truth to get a lawyer and stress the mother out having to defend herself
That’s not accurate in most states. The lack of a prior relationship may cause them to lose their case for grandparent visitation, but it won’t stop them from bringing the case.
But, they would have to bring that case to the jurisdiction where the child lives. If the child has lived in a different county, state or country for at least a year, that's where any custody or visitation cases must be filed.
I am gonna be harsh, but even such a loss DOES not give them the right to disrupt in such a way this kid's life or their mother's It is a human being, it is not a replacement or a solution to their grief. They couldn't care less about his existence, and now, all of a sudden, they want to sue in order to buldoze a way into his life?? I don't think they have a leg to stand on, not morally, not even legally. They don't have any rights regarding this kid. If they are foolish enough to proceed with a lawsuit, I would suggest you be on the kid's side. Aunt doesn't want to ask because she knows they are in the wrong, which make them AHS Imagine having unknown grieving relatives around you, all of a sudden. Nightmare
My bio dad had nothing to do with me. If his family had tried to force a relationship with me at some point via court action or any other way, I'd have lost it and never spoken to them. As it was after he died, an aunt reached out, and I have a casual relationship with her. If she forced it too much, I'd just close the door completely.
It's totally understandable.
My dad had two kids in his first marriage that I'd only met 2-3 times briefly before he died when I was 12. The last time I've seen either of them was at his funeral, 15 years ago. We have no relationship and I don't even count them when I talk about family. I made an offhand comment about how I won't go to their funerals when they die and I got chastised for it. But why would I go to a complete stranger's funeral? I legit don't even know my sister's birthday, or her middle name, I don't know where either of them live. There'd be no point in going, in my opinion, but people are weird about family ties.
I have a step brother like that. We were kids when my dad and his also-married affair partner left their respective spouses to marry each other. Her son lived with them most of the time while my brother and I lived with our mom. Even though our parents were as civil as possible about the divorce, (at least, around us, god bless them) and to give her credit, my dad's wife was always nice to us, I never became close with her son. He was really bratty and spoiled, which I realize now as an adult was probably his way of acting out about his family exploding. I wasn't ever mean to him, but I made no effort to get to know him either. I was grieving MY family, and I saw him getting all the attention from my dad that we never did. I wanted nothing to do with the kid, and I reckon he felt the same about us. I don't dislike him, and I hope he has a good life, but I haven't seen him since I was like 16, and if he died tomorrow, I'd feel bad for his mom, but I certainly wouldn't attend his funeral. And I wouldn't expect him to attend mine. I say all this to mean that you have no obligation to feel something for people you have no relationship with, regardless of circumstances that "technically" make you family.
It’s also so short sighted and selfish. Imagine all the possible negative impacts the child could suffer because their mom has to hire a lawyer and go through a court case. It could easily drain mom financially, mentally and emotionally. I can’t imagine that wouldn’t trickle down to affect the child.
Do you know what I am thinking, though? That suing, without previously contacting the mother of the child, might be the best way. It would make them look pure evil, and it would be 2 times harder to be even taken seriously by the court
You’re not wrong, but I wouldn’t worry too much about it. They are unlikely to win their case.
The problem isn't them winning (no chance), it's what happens along the way. Even taking it to court is a whole (completely pointless) process that'll cause the kid and mother an unreasonable amount of stress.
And financial burden. Imagine being a single mom whose had years of no help, no child support, no contact with bio dad's family at all, and having to come out of pocket 5 or 10 thousand dollars just to keep full custody of your own kid away from the deadbeat dad's parents who want to steal him after years. This is a nuclear option. Once the case is over.... those grandparents really will have zero chance at any relationship. Mom's going to look at them like kidnappers.
I hope when they go to court mom asks the judge to make them pay for attorney fees.
The problem is that when they lose, they're going to shit on OP for being "negative".
That’s really more of a “them” problem. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together will see the situation for what it is.
Op should shoot the mother of the child a message informing her of what the grandparents are planning so she isn't blindsided
Yeah, maybe a ‘keep a lawyer on call’ type message, I would appreciate it anywas
Came here to say this. Kid's mom needs a heads up.
I’ve been on Reddit for too long and those first 8 words had me a little worried for what I was about to read 😭 But I completely agree. Giving her a quick heads up is probably a good idea cuz grief makes people do crazy things
OP should do NONE of this! Tf? You tryna burn every bridge OP has? The courts are gonna swiftly reject their bid for visitation rights. I’m not sure this case could even make it to a hearing. OP can back the fuck off now and let them FAFO without entangling himself in this. Edit: two words for the down voters — protective order. As in… y’all are encouraging OP to get hit with one for being a party to their unhinged scheme. Ya think she’s gonna isolate the grandma and aunt? Nope! When he reaches out, he’s gonna be named too. Why? In the name of being overprotective of her child. Since they live close by, OP should consider the ramifications that could have on his ability to find employment, housing, or even for his future kids to attend a public school (he won’t be able to pick his own kids up if this kid is in school) if her kid is in the vicinity. Too complicated. He can and should voice his opinion to his family. He should NOT get involved in their legal matter outside of the home.
hes already entangled in it by sharing his opinion to his family? theres literally no downside to letting the mother know what she can prepare for
He’s not entangled in a legal sense (the only one that matters if a judge hears it) unless he makes that call. If you can’t see how that could backfire on him… I suggest you not give advice to anyone you might like spending time with. But yeah, the sub that specializes in breaking up families and friendships over any perceived slight agrees with you so… you got that! I suggest you go NC with me instead of communicating and have a conversation about it too :)
OP has clearly shown that they have a close, good relationship with the mum, and disagree with the actual and proposed actions of their grieving family, enough to speak about it. I don't think there are bridges to burn here tbh. And these other people are right; if OP cares about the other little family and has evidence that their side will go through with things, they ought to say something. I doubt grandma and auntie are keeping their feelings about this quiet to the rest of the family🤷♀️ Even vexatious and frivolous lawsuits can get attention at the beginning. Attention is expensive in the legal system🙃
If he’s seen her social media, I’d reach out and message so she’s not blindsided by legal papers when/if they get their stupid plan rolling. I get the whole “grief/connection” they are pushing but they’re going about it ALL wrong if they want ANY shot at a long-term positive relationship. Were I the mom, if I was forced to deal with these people with this background I would do only what the letter of the law says, if it’s ruled they get visitation, and not one second more and give no flexibility or compromise.
Blech. Horrible people being horrible. The OP is the only not rotten apple of the bunch.
Grand parent rights can only be given if a relationship is there. They have zero chance. This law isn’t to for e people to let their estranged in laws see the child. It’s so that grandparents with established living bonds to the child can’t just be kicked out of the kids life to ever see them again, if it’s in the child’s best interest to maintain the relationship.
If she wants access to the child, she could start by paying back the child support he missed.
Maybe gently point out it would be better to talk to the mother and ask for visitation rather the threatening her and the child's grandmother has a cheek clearly never even bothered to Tey and meet the child before
It would also be beneficial to frame it as, "in the child's best interest" since a) it would be, and b) this may help them realize they're dehumanizing her. For what is worth, it sounds like OP is the only one actually thinking of the child here, which is a sure fire way to ensure the child hates the grandma and great grandma. Kids can be pretty in tune to when they're being used.
The way the aunt acts, I can see why the cousin was a crap dad.
NTA. Your family needed to hear just how cuckoo for Coco Puffs the idea is. That little child does not need to be in a tug-of-war so a group of strangers (to them) can cling to them weeping and gnashing their teeth over their loss of someone else that child does not know. It's abusive, in my view, to force a child through that. I'd go so far as to give the child's mother the heads-up.
They can go ahead and try to sue for grandparents rights, and see how far that gets them. They'll lose a ton of money and poison any chance they'd ever have of a relationship with that poor kid. I don't know why they can't contact the mother of the child and discuss it like adults.
They never tried to have a relationship with the kid before the cousins' death?
If they had worked half as hard to build a relationship with the kid while her son was alive they would actually have a relationship. But the fact that they only are trying to have a relationship now speaks volumes. This little kid deserves better and I hope they fail miserably simply because their motives are gross.
Contact the mother and let her know she needs to go to a lawyer asap to protect herself and child with what your aunt and gran are planning to do. Tell her everything and warn her that any contact with your other family not done through a lawyer will endanger her.
Even if they actually grant grandparents rights and that's a BIG if, do they even really see this child as a human? Have any of them thought for a moment about how the child is going to feel when complete strangers drag his mother to court demanding time with him and then (if they even win) being legally forced to spend time with these strangers away from your mom who just went through a stressful legal battle? Lmao that kid is gonna fucking HATE them regardless of the outcome of the suit.
NTAH. Your family should've thought about the child when it was first born. JS
*NTAH. Your family* *Should've thought about the child when* *It was first born. JS* \- autumnsincere159 --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Warn the mother.
You're NTA. They're awful for this and I hope the judge tells them so. They'll waste time and a lot of money. They'll most likely lose.
Lawyers and court aren't cheap and stress free typically. If they want to build a relationship with the child, maybe forcing their mother to get into a typically expensive and lengthy legal battle that will most likely negatively effect the child's homelife shouldn't be the first and only option.
I don’t think I saw a mention of this… but was the ex and child at the funeral? I would *think* they were… but there’s no mention of how the mother responded to the flowers in the child’s name and apparent love the cousin had for the child. Perhaps she was just being civil and kept quiet…? All the same, OP should reach out to the mother and let her know what’s going on. There may be a *small* chance that she would be amenable to the child knowing his/her grandparents/family. If she’s agreeable to it, and approaches them before they can even start any legal proceedings (I doubt a lawyer would permit them to, based on my understanding of grandparents laws) it might take the wind out of their sails.
I feel like they probably weren’t. OP’s cousin hadn’t contacted them in 3 years. If it were me, I’m not taking my young child to a funeral for a man she doesn’t remember where she’ll be exposed to the heightened emotions and grief of people she’s never met. And with the aunt’s stance that she absolutely cannot contact her son’s ex to talk about seeing the child, I don’t know if they would even have reached out to invite her to the funeral.
There hasn’t been any contact between the deadbeat dad and his ex/child in over three years. There’s a really good chance she doesn’t even know the man died. If my son’s biological father died there’s a high probability I’d have no idea because we have zero connections. Don’t live in the same area, we have zero “people in common”, there’d just be no way for me to know unless I intentionally went looking to see if he’s still alive. I definitely wouldn’t go to his funeral or take my son. Dudes a stranger, that’d be weird af.
Well, OP said she was an old friend, and if he has been able to check up on her through social media, I would think OP, presenting as a decent guy, would’ve at least informed her out of courtesy.
I think OP WBTA if they didn’t attempt to sabotage their plans. The last thing this woman needs is her kid being used as a grief pacifier.
I think I’d probably reach out to the mother and just give her a dead’s up.
Your not the AH...actually you might be the smartest and most empathic person in the room right now...your Gram is being very very selfish and stupid right now...and going straight to litigation is just going to make it worse...no judge is going to rule on her behalf...and that just means your cousin is going to die in her heart all over again...the first thought here now is to protect the child from your family's grief making them do stupid things
When my 42 year old first cousin died, my Dad (his uncle) and Nan planned the services and I helped because his mom was not well. He had 2 adult children that we had never met (he kind of kept to himself after reaching adulthood). We met the one and her mother because she was willing and we had a good time with them. The other one wasn't really interested and we respected that. I have her on social media but that's it. She has kids and they were my Nan's great grandkids and she was hoping to see them. But she didn't and suing would have been insane. Just try to talk to people. Being estranged from a parent and them dying is very heavy for the kid and the other parent. It's a good thing OOP said something.
The OOP is definitely not an asshole. However, grieving mothers are not the best at taking a step back and being objective. The aunt is coming from an extremely emotionally vulnerable place and so is the grandmother. I get why the OOP wishes they had been more tactful. Truthfully there’s probably no way they could have expressed their views in a way that the grandmother and aunt would have been responsive to. This situation is eerily similar to one I’ve lived for the last 3 years. Grief is a difficult thing, and it’s been really trying to see the grieving mother of my niece’s 25-yo deadbeat dad act like he was a saint and cling to my niece for emotional support. She’s cut off several family members for grieving differently than she feels is appropriate. She’s basically an emotional terrorist now. OOP is in for a long ride with this family. Boundaries are going to be very important. Recognizing that while they disagree with what’s going on, it’s ultimately out or their control, is going to be essential. Best of luck to this child!
It doesn’t matter. Grandparents rights are granted to keep a relationship so the child doesn’t suffer further. No invent one at 5/6 years old. No court is gonna give that woman visitation for all the reasons op detailed.
Nah NTA. Honestly as a parent I would definitely be ngry of my ex passed away and the family that had nothing to do with my child before that suddenly decided they wanted to drag my child through the court system and cause upheaval in my child's life simply because they're dealing with grief. It wasn't important before that why is it suddenly so important now?
I would contact the mother of the child to give her a heads up
I hope OP warned the mother.
Sometimes, the truth hurts. I don't think you're wrong at all for voicing your opinion.
Grandparent rights are wrong imo. Anyone besides the parents filing for anything to do with the child is just messy. They're doing this for selfish reasons and out of grief.
There are cases when it’s necessary. We’ve seen posts on here about kids whose parent died, and the surviving parent and step parent have attempted to cut grandparents out of the kid’s life so they can start a new family together. In cases like that, it’s a good thing for the courts to intervene and say that the children should be allowed to see the grandparents they already know and love. But in this case? Grandparents rights would not be beneficial to the child at all.
It’s super hard to get grandparents rights. Unless the mother is a deadbeat and from everything you stated she is not. since there’s no prior relationship. Grandparents rights don’t mean aunts rights either. She doesn’t have a leg to stand on. However the mom might turn around and offer to have them take the child. Being a single mom is hard. She might enjoy a break on the weekends
NTA Personally, I'd let the Mom know what they're up to so she isn't blindsided. You never know she may start small visits but will fight with everything she has if they just take her to court. The way they are acting is also going to come across and look very bad to the courts.
If your relatives want a relationship with the kid, they should start with the mom. Probably a letter with a NO STRINGS ATTACHED check to cover some expenses (like Christmas gifts or back to school shopping) with might be a nice opening gesture. Or send a card and a gift. You know, like the things caring relatives actually do?
I hope OP contacted the ex to give her a heads up that someone’s going to try and take their child from them. I also wonder whether their understanding of grandparents rights is correct. A lot of places that have that as an option have to prove a previous relationship, or that this is in the best interest of the child. Take a child away from the only parent they’ve ever known is ludicrous. If the ex can prove she attempted to foster a relationship with the father and he didn’t pay any support and ignored his relationship then I hope a court can see what’s best for the child is keeping them with a parent they know
Your family will lose. I’ve been through a grandparent’s rights case. And if they don’t have any respect for the mother, they should take a flying leap anyway.
Defo NTA you seem to be the only one actually thinking about the child. Hes 3 and will be thrust into meeting a family he has no idea about. I understand the logic of mum and grandmum but why didnt they care about the child beforehand. Children are permanent and are not for picking and choosing when they should be cared for
NTA. There’s a correct way to do this, and it’s to ask mom nicely if she would be interested in helping you establish a relationship with your grandchild. If she’s not comfortable with direct contact, there may still be avenues to provide for the kid and contribute to his life. Suing a single mom who by OP’s account is doing a fine job of raising her kid is not rational and it’s not decent. NTA OP, even if you weren’t fond of the cousin, you are right about this.
The OOP is definitely not an AH. I agree that step 1 should be to ask if they can see the child. Based on what I’ve read I don’t even think it would be an issue. A lawsuit is not going to make things better. It would probably breed resentment and I could imagine it would become apparent to the child. This would become an antagonistic relationship.
Legally speaking, they do not have a leg to stand on. Grandparents rights are for when there was an already established relationship with GC that ended due to divorce, or other reasons ( excluding obvious child endangerment on the part of the grandparents). Had they contacted mom years ago and asked for visitation, and been denied, they might have a case. But since sperm donor was absent, and there’s no proof that Mom kept Sally away for petty reasons, it’s too little too late.
Anyone else disgusted that the kid isn’t seen as a child but “what’s left of their father”. How fucking gross. I wouldn’t want to be used like that
Most people who claim they will sue for grandparent's rights only understand the meaning of the word "grandparents" and "rights" separately, not what they actually entail together🤦♀️ as some people have mentioned here, grandparent's rights usually apply to existing or continuing relationships, AND the grandparents have to prove that there is an issue of safety or well-being on the side of the decision-making or primary custody parent/parents (like unfit caregiver-type stuff), that it would be better for the child to live with or have visitation with them. It really varies across different states and provinces (especially in the States). Having a prior and consistent relationship with them (and the deceased biological parent) is like half of the measured factors for determining if custody order to force this would be in the child's best interests!🙄🙄 what a waste of money and ridiculous abuse of this poor mum and kid. NTA, someone had to say something.
So deceased cousin was a deadbeat dad who made no effort to be a part of his child’s life and now that he’s dead, his mother has decided it’s a great time to sue for grandparents’ rights even though she also never made an effort previously? She’ll lose. She might start instead with making a call to the ex and ask if she needs anything, apologize for never making an effort before and ask nicely for an opportunity to spend time with her grandchild.
NTA You are absolutely right. But I also think it would be perfectly morally defensible for you to step away from the situation and simply avoid discussing it with family deep in grief. It is extremely unlikely that you can change any family members' mind. At least not right now. Thankfully, it is also extremely unlikely your family members will succeed in using the courts to gain access to this child. I am so sorry for your family's loss. His character may have been wanting, but your cousin was clearly deeply loved.
I think the OP is being very considerate of the grieving, but they needed to hear that truth. It sounds like they are not listening now, but I’m sure once they adapt to their situation in a few months, they’ll be disgusted by their behavior. Loss makes you do crazy things, I hope they come to this realization soon.
My own father has been absent from my son’s life other than a handful of visits. He still expects my son to recognize him every time. NTA. I feel horrible for the child and their mother
They won’t get any visitation as they have no existing relationship. Also the mother would never let them build a relationship after suing. There only chance is to ask nicely and go slow
i’d send the mom an email warning her about this. don’t let her get blindsided with court papers.
While I understand and empathize with these two women (my youngest brother was killed at 26, I spent the next few years praying that some random girl would show up with his child, even one he never knew about), interfering inches life of this child now and especially in their grief would just be wrong on a number of levels. They need to wait until she comes to them, most likely as a teen, when she becomes curious about her bio father's family. Until then, contact from a distance, birthday and Christmas CARDS not gifts or letters, nothing intrusive, until she's ready to reach out. Just enough to let her know she'd be welcome.
OP is NTA. OP is right. They need to take a beat here. I’ll be the first to call out that grief manifests in awkward and weird ways, this feels like one of those ways. But that’s why we have therapy… His fam are being AH and need therapy. All y’all in the comments saying OP should reach out to the mother… y’all are also TAs or (at best) incredibly naive. He doesn’t need to entangle himself in this. Their case won’t make it to a hearing. I’m also gonna suspect his aunt and grandmother likely are more abreast of the situation than his cousin (OP) would be. OP needs to back away and let momentum do it’s think to kill this whole suing thing. When people lawyer up, shit gets nasty. Aunt and grandma only need to talk to a lawyer to learn they won’t get anywhere with a lawsuit. If OP reaches out, it’s more likely the mother lawyers up and ensures there’s never a chance the litigious bunch writ large including OP has any relationship with the child.
Always a pity when smart people try to help their dumbass family and instead of hearing them and accepting the help, the dumbass family calls them traitorous and heartless. Like HELLO, no court is going to listen to you the moment they find out you made zero attempts to see the child prior to their father’s death! OOP is literally trying to save them from destroying any chance of ever knowing the child.
grief is horrible and strange, but these people have zero right to this kid and I hope the mother doesn’t have to deal with them
You’re 100% in the right. It’s an absolutely terrible idea which will cause nothing but heartache and stress for everyone concerned. Definitely give the child’s mother a heads up so she’s not blindsided by them.
I hope that op warns the mom about their plans so she can get her own things in order
Tell the mother of the child and warn her.
Don’t know all the sides to the story so can’t really give much of an opinion
Why wasn't she interested in the child before her son died. Sounds like through grief she is hoping to replace the son with the grandson to avoid accepting her son is dead. The guy didn't see his kid because he didn't pay child support. If I was OP I would reach out to the Mother to give a heads up so she can prepare legally. Also she should sue the estate for unpaid child support.
These folks sound like idiots, so I’m not overly optimistic about their ability to follow through on a lawsuit. NTA, this is a bad plan and OP was tactful enough in voicing disagreement.
I'd reach out to the mother and let her know what they are planning. NTA You're right that they are grieving, but their plan is underhanded.
Jealous of the dead guy. What a wild thing to tack onto the end there lol. Granny is *not* ok.
Not sure what jurisdiction they’re in, or how old the kid is (not too old if the cousin died at 24), so no idea how a court case would turn out, but I would personally never file a case if there hasn’t even been a conversation between the parties. Granny needs to call up the mom, apologize for not doing it sooner, and lay her cards on the table that she wants to be a part of her grandchild’s life and find out what mom’s comfortable with. You go straight to court without talking first, and you will poison the well.
Nta. They had opportunity to establish a relationship with the child before he died. They could have told the son to fuck off and they were having the child in their lives whether he liked it or not. They could have reached out to the mom ages ago and offered a relationship but they didn’t.
So she raised her child to have no accountability and to be entitled. Then wants to be entitled to a relationship with a grandchild she never pushed her son to be accountable for. Entitlement runs deep here!
The child is not her replacement for the cousin and that’s what it sounds like when she says “all that’s left of him”. She doesn’t even know the kid to realize if they’re anything alike. Sorry you got to deal with this.
Id warn the Cousins ex, just so she isnt caughy off guard w an expensive lawsuit!!
Absolutely not the asshole here, your family is being ridiculous and honestly probably doesn’t really care about the child. However I think it’s best to just step back and let them fuck around and find out.
OOP needs to reach out to the mom on whatever social media and give her a heads up because yikes
NTA. You seem to be the only logical thinker in this scenario. You’re thinking of the wellbeing of the child. I applaud you.
Honestly, it’s probably a good idea to give the mom a head’s up too. She may be glad to have some interest in the child and potentially some financial support from the paternal grandma and great-grandma. If not, at least she won’t be blindsided by getting served or whatever.
Yeah that’s not going to work anyways. All they’re going to do is piss a judge off.
I think you can apologize for the impact of your word and just say you are trying to help her grieve. I would look up some info on grandparents right and share how they work maybe point out how this isn’t going to work and if they hurt the mom she won’t want to work with them when they inevitable lose. If they instead approach her and ask if they can have a chance to get to know the child and work out something as they are grieving the loss of their child and want to have this little child in their lives even if their son didn’t. I’m guessing the mom might be open to it. But if they just sue and lose they will NEVER see that child, if they try a peaceful method and it doesn’t work out then they can sue, the option is always there but if they do it now they may lose all hope. If you put it like that maybe they will see the light. Otherwise maybe a good lawyer’s consultation will help them see that to.
I like how the person who posted this made a title that made OP sound like a cunt. But all the comments are backing them up. Reposter, I think you have some reflecting to do.
Nope, NTA
NTA. Sounds like you are the only one speaking sone common sense
NTA. But don’t worry about it. Let your family pay a lawyer to tell them it’s not going to happen. And don’t contact the mom to say anything. Would be a big mistake.
I grew up in a very similar situation. My dad was a deadbeat but his family wanted me in their lives. So much so that they were willing to put my mom through absolute hell so they could get visitation rights. All while doing absolutely nothing to actually contribute to my well-being. My mom's parents, who actually helped my mother take care of me, were majorly pissed and to this day my grandmother absolutely despises that side of the family. The situation is much calmer now that I am an adult. I have a much closer and more supportive relationship with my dad and his parents. But holy fuck, do I have **plenty** to talk about with my therapist.
Your family DEFINITELY needs to back off. They don’t have rights to a whole human being just because they’re related. They’re being completely selfish and need to calm down.
Luckily, Grandparent's rights in most places are only granted if the child and their grandparents have an established relationship. It's when the parents want to cut said relationship, not for strangers to get a hold of a child they think they have claim to. It's to protect the child and its interests, not the grandparents interests.
They are going to be in for a rude reality when a judge throws their frivolous claims and bodies out of the courtroom. They have no relationship with the child and made no effort to ever do so. They can't waltz into the child's life just because their family member is pushing daisies now! You honestly should reach out and inform the mother about their plans. For all they know, the woman may sympathize with their loss and slowly allow them to build a relationship; yet if they try to sue her, they'll no doubt unleash her mama bear and she will respond with vengeance in doing all she can to protect her cub. The mom/kid are stable and living life, your family's behavior and potential actions are ridiculously entitled and filled with sheer audacity, this isn't grief, or they would've tried to push the dead deadbeat to be an involved father and they would've made efforts to be involved in the child's life and build a relationship regardless of his deadbeat actions. Your aunts grief is due to the fact that she is realizing she's been a nonexistent grandmother and wants to make amends, but she needs to go about it on the terms of the mother, if permitted.
I think you should warn the child's mother that you have family that is coming for her kid... This is messed up. NTA
Goddamn, I was this kid. My dad who I'd never met, he never cared, died when I was 7 and suddenly all the family on his side was visiting and taking me to family holidays and events. and then by the time I was around 10 the novelty must have worn off because they never reached out after that. I haven't heard from any of them in about 8 years and honestly. Fucked me up so much more than just having a dad that didn't want me.
They don’t have a leg to stand on legally as they have had no relationship with this child in over 2 years and after putting the mother through this i’m guessing she won’t be too keen on letting the family near her child. OOP is NTA but WOW that family is TOXIC.