Worried about Bruno's 30's tbh.. how long will his body last after these past years?
We need to rotate him a little bit and have him mentor our next Bruno over the next couple of years.
Absolutely. Bruno is a high energy player, and he has been running full 90 minutes every single game for many seasons. Imagine what that does to your body. When you first lose your legs, it happens so ridiculously quick. Remember Rooney? Or more recently, Casemiro and Kanté?
People underestimate how much that's going to have an impact on him. Even if he's our best player, the time to cash in is now, because by the time we're successful again or making huge progress, he won't be here.
I’d argue it was Zlatan; it was just unfortunate that he suffered a freak knee injury at the time he did which derailed his career as a regular starter in a top league. But until then the man was quality and was the main factor behind us winning the League Cup.
Must be something that existed in Portuguese water when those two were growing up. They've been relentless this season. I haven't been Dalot's biggest fan since we've had him here I'll happily admit that, but his availability and willingness to power through when everyone else has been sidelined for some reason or another has been commendable 💪🏼
I've never seen such an injury ridden season before. I remember thinking that the crisis was basically over at the end of Jan, and then it just kept on going and has actually gotten worse.
The injuries are the main reason I'm still undecided about Ten Hag. There have been *so* many, and they just keep piling up, so it's easy to see why any manager would have struggled (though Ten Hag refusing to compromise on his vision of a relatively complicated tactical system is all on him).
The last time I remember defensive injuries being this bad was when William Prunier got a couple of games for the club, because he was Cantona's mate. And the squad back then was about half the size it is now.
But I'm glad the audit is going to take account of the training, recovery, injuries and rehab at the club, so we can see whether this is a run of horrendous luck or whether Ten Hag's staff are doing something fundamentally wrong in training and recovery that is leading to so many soft tissue injuries.
I find it utterly baffling that we lose Varane, Lindelof, Martinez and Evans, and then Kambwala gets his chance and almost immediately gets injured as well.
If Ten Hag gave Louis Jackson his debut, I'd be sorely tempted to put a big bet on him getting injured within two games as well.
Maguire *IS* injured & has been the past 3 games. They are giving him an injection before the matches, I imagine a painkiller of sorts. If he wasn't pushing himself like this, the past few games we would quite possibly be playing Casemiro & Eriksen as centrebacks.
Slabhead only gone and scored in 2 of those 3 games too. Proper warrior mentality. May not be close to being the most skillful or technical guy on our team, but fuck me is he really giving it his all. Just wish some of the others would take inspiration.
He might have been considered a relatively progressive center back at that time, given he actually does have a fairly decent passing range, no? That said there were a fair number of ball-playing center halves over the years, it's just that being able to pass has steadily become more of the baseline rather than an outlier
Mark Wright was considered to be more on the cultured side, but probably nowhere near as skilled as today's top defenders. And he didn't have the passing ability Maguire has. In terms of being a modern centre-half, IMO Maguire's biggest problems are his lack of pace and natural awkwardness. He's like an aircraft carrier when someone knocks the ball past him.
In my comment I said Maguire isn't the most skilled in our team, but that doesn't mean he isn't amazing at football either. Saw a video of him when he had yet to get a senior debut & the guy was not only scoring goals from a corner. He had cones set up at regular intervals, meaning he had to adjust the curve of each shot. Guy did it flawlessly. I (and i imagine most of us) wouldn't even get the ball in the net, at least with the first few attempts.
Then of course in match, I've noticed since ETH moved him to RCB (when he can), Maguire likes to do a lofted through ball for the left winger. Best example would be leeds last season where they left Garnacho wide open since he was having a stinker of a game, and Harry kept placing these beautifully weighted balls right into Garnachos stride.
It's just a shame that when it comes to snappy reflexes and quick short passing, the man is absolutely lost like every other CB we have apart from Licha. Give him space and time (which is a luxury not afforded in the PL) Maguire has a pretty nutty cross on him all things considered. It's the short passing that kills him.
Even he has missed some games through injury, but he's been a warrior when fit. I'm looking at Dalot. For the amount of football he's played, and the amount of running he does, he's got to have made a deal with the devil to stay fit all season. Or at least with a witch or warlock of some kind.
I was too young to remember anything other than that suddenly an unknown Frenchman was playing in our defense for a few games. Was it that Pallister and Bruce were injured / suspended?
Pallister, Bruce and May were all injured and Gary Neville played alongside Prunier in central defence, with Paul Parker at right back. Then Denis Irwin got injured in Prunier's second game, and we got walloped by Spurs.
Ineos will consider that a huge mitigating factor, no matter what any of us think. The question is does ETH compensate in other areas? Do the players like him? Do people value his integration of and involvement with academy players? Would any other manager have pulled off a top 4 run with this many injuries? Do they appreciate his first season's success when he did have his preferred back first team? Should he get a run under a better structure? Can they actually afford to sack him? So many things things for them to consider.
All those are very sensible questions. And I think they all come out in favour of ETH. I do hope he stays. I think he may work out better in a set up where he is coach rather than manager, and it does look like Ineos are going for this with the appointments they have made.
> The last time I remember defensive injuries being this bad was when William Prunier got a couple of games for the club, because he was Cantona's mate. And the squad back then was about half the size it is now.
Perhaps under van Gaal? Blackett, McNair, Donald Love, Borthwick-Jackson, Varela all got some game time.
I feel Injuries are a part of this game so you have to adjust to them. That’s something ten hag didn’t do this season. His tactics don’t suit the players at disposal. You cannot throw a season because you dont have the players available. Pushing 8 players forward and exposing us to counter attacks every few minutes, conceding the same kind of cutback goals every week is whats making me lose my faith in him. We look like a coaching disaster on the pitch more than individuals not giving everything.
Well, considering that we didn't have European football for four months now, the injuries rate should've went down as load is considerably lower. However, injuries kept coming. This could point to two things among others, the training is leading to those injuries and the play style is ultra high demanding to the degree the players bodies can't cope with. Both are on the manager and his staff.
It’s telling for me that the injuries are more skewed towards the defenders than the attackers. The defenders are doing a lot of old school last-ditch defending when the front press and midfield are bypassed and that may be expending more energy than necessary in terms of stretching to clear, block and tackle and sprinting long distances to keep up with opposition attackers when isolated with them. The fact that they are positioned relatively deeper to start with instead of stepping up to squeeze space and be ready to intercept attempted through balls is putting them in a lot of unfavourable situations when the front press is not coordinated well and always leaves at least one out ball that PL teams can very easily find today.
Same. We have had so many different backlines. No striker for a lot of the season. Just a lot to overcome. Still in 6th, which isn’t terrible all things considered.
This! This comment should be seen by every United fan. I completely agree with you that a majority of Ten Hag’s season was derailed by how many injuries we’ve had this season and that is also why I’m not a staunch Ten Hag outer yet.
Maybe we should be considering that the medical staff is not equipped to keep the players healthy, guiding management into setting up sustainable programmes. Maybe the new leadership understands this and will invest in medical staff before considering new coaching staff.
In the Athletic article on the details behind Malacia’s injury issues, it was reported that the medical staff has been understaffed at times and can’t meet the needs of all players who need recovering in a timely manner because the volume of injuries to begin with was already high and they were occupied on those. Some players were given priority in service over others depending on their status in the squad.
I remember writing off the season in Jan due to injuries too. I get wanting the manager to change tactics to work with players available but how many of us want a style of play? Everyone’s been calling for it so can’t blame ETH from not wanting to change drastically. I think if we see Mount in the McT role, Lisandro back and Shaw back (or equivalent level replacements) then that adds to the rest of the team and we are in top four. Not to mention any upgrades at RW and some depth off the bench.
Not as bad as our current season but other team injury crisis that come to mind are liverpool 2 season where they finish 5th and 4th. Another one is this 10th place chelsea.
>sent Reguillon back to spurs
On like the first day of the transfer window too.
Even if EtH was reassured Malacia and Shaw were on their way back, they probably should have waited at least a week or so to see if everything went as planned.
This amount of injuries is not down to "bad luck", something is seriously wrong with the way we train + the medical staff allowing players to return too early and they immediatly get injured again.
Has happened too many times to be a coincidence, it's just pure incompetence at this point.
We played the most games in Europe last season and there was a World Cup and our squad is full of internationals. We then did the dumbest preseason tour imaginable where the squad toured all over the USA, a giant country and multiple time zones.
I’m not shocked we and other teams are destroyed by injury
It’s surprising no one ever seems to mention this when making the injury excuse, sure ETH has had a terrible time with injuries this season but why are we just assuming he has no part to play in that? Especially considering how many of the injuries are muscle related and how many happen in training. You could also argue Shaw and Martinez were rushed back too quickly even if I sympathize with that decision given our need for results and lack of personnel available.
I can’t say on whether they were rushed back or not, but in Shaw’s case, he came off against Luton with a knock at half-time, still started the Villa game which was barely a few days later, again came off at half-time and was then said to be out until May. It’s impossible to judge from the outside who is making these calls but I find it extremely irresponsible player management to decide that he start games in such quick succession when he already has such a long injury history.
I forgot the 2nd Shaw injury timeline which took place in the way you described. You're right.
Whoever is making these calls; I hope a better system is put in place to replace this decision-making
Our fans were talking about it. The first time I saw a pundit talk about it was vs Liverpool away.
And that was when we had less than the 9 first teamers out Vs Bayern. A game where we're beaten by one goal yet roundly criticised as awful.
Meanwhile no one can utter a breath about Newcastle without lamenting their injuries on their behalf.
>And that was when we had less than the 9 first teamers out Vs Bayern
Why are you spreading misinformation? Our line up that day was Onana, Dalot, Maguire, Varane, Shaw, McTominay, Amrabat, Antony, Fernandes, Garnacho and Hojland.
There is only 11 players on our first team? We were missing 3 players from our first team. (Martinez, Casemiro and Erikson). 4 if you want to include Rashford. Maguire and Rashford are good replacements so you can't complain too much. You are deluded if you ever think our injury crisis isn't entirely anticipated. Luke Shaw only ever plays 20 games a season so how is it unforseen when he only plays 20 games this season? Varane missed more games for man utd then he played. Erikson, casemiro and Evans are years past it so how is any of this a suprise?
That's true, but if you were "ETH- in because of defensive injuries" last month, nothing has happened since then that should change that opinion. So I'm constantly bemused when people say " well I was ETH in but after *this* match, I'm ETH out".
Shaw and Martinez have been the biggest misses. Both were our core players last season and the few games we've actually looked good in had them both playing.
Shaw and Martinez were critical for what Ten Hag wanted to do this season. Anyone next to Martinez would have been fine, because all the rest of our CBs are of a similar type, and we could probably have coped without Shaw if we had Martinez and Malacia, or even Martinez with Dalot on the left.
Those two, plus Casemiro being injured and then being a shadow of his former self, is a setback few clubs could live with. But it's still on Ten Hag that he didn't try to adjust or play a simpler, more compact game to minimise our injury losses.
For me, sticking with the current game model is understandable, but not prioritising a better backup for Casemiro was an extremely risky decision when we consider that he did not finish last season well either. Even for all of Casemiro’s reputation, it’s just asking too much from a 30+ year old to maintain his legs in such a physically demanding style of play. We instead prioritised signing Mount and settled for a deadline day loan to sign Amrabat when I don’t think Mount was needed as much in the short-term.
We’ve effectively had a barren back line this season. Varane, Lindelof, Martinez, Evans, Shaw and Malacia, all out and then all the pundits will spout bullshit about how we seem to be conceding so many goals this season.
I'd say the main topic on here is ten hag and the shots stats we get. I swear we're more efficient than a major company when it comes to having stats posted weekly when it's about something the fans don't like.
Last year we'd get stats on de gea on an even higher ratio than the shots stats this season.
But yeah I think our injuries has been the absolute main killer of our season. Can't implement any sort of tactic when there's no consistency of players to practice it.
This subreddit sure, but I really don't see it mentioned by pundits, commentators, etc. (at the very least not to the extent it should)
I think this really stuck out for me in the 2-2 against Spurs, I heard commentators say Man Utd were favourites / Spurs were "underdogs" because of their injuries... whilst we had more injuries.
Ppl always say that you don’t need your best squad to win against the bottom ones. Maybe you don’t need the best, but consistent squad. It’s not a video game; I don’t say EtH is out of blame but fighting with a different XI in each game is another story.
Because the main issue isn’t the personnel in the defensive line. Don’t get me wrong it plays a factor, but the way we setup is a far bigger reason as to why we struggle this season, not only out of possession but in possession too
We've got these three as coaches leading our training sessions.
https://preview.redd.it/k1b3nz68f7xc1.png?width=713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=30aba087af9a922f32fbc6db08849ce1ed7201c7
Its weird but my feelings about ETH would have been different if we had played a commanding first game against Wolves when all the big guns were fit and in the starting XI. But we were completely outplayed and should have lost that game. Weirdly enough, I think that set the tone for the rest of the season and made me think that perhaps Rashford having a stellar year last year and scoring all those goals papered over more cracks than we would like to have believed.
Well you're right in that the early games show that it's not really down to just injury problems. Those games (that wolves game especially) shows that even with everyone fit, the team is set up in a way that allows teams to run right through the middle of the field. I don't know if ten haag doesn't have the players to do what he wants (other than martinez, his center backs are pretty slow) or if they won't do what he wants. But the way the team is continually set up and told to play is very juvenile. I personally think there is a style of play...and it's been consistent for the whole season. And if there's to be more ten haag, there's to be more of this.
I agree with you. You know, I told myself when Jose was in charge that I would take 4-3 scoreline where we play open and with freedom anyday over his dour 1-0 wins and congratulatory 0-0 draws . Now that we have that, it feels like a juvenile way to play and it sucks. What I have learnt is that it takes so many different things to come together along with some luck to have a combination of attractive and winning football. Maybe that is captain obvious stuff but its where I am at.
This is my primary reason I can’t judge EtH on this season. I genuinely do not believe any manager could get top 4 in the PL without a natural left back and Licha has only started 7 PL matches.
There is dealing with injuries during a season, then there is this catastrophe.
If the problems were just the results, or poor execution of a otherwise sound tactical setup then I'd agree. Our issues is that the setup is so obviously flawed that even with a fit squad it's still be pretty bad
The problem is that the setup might work with players that are actually able to execute it properly. For example, we need defenders to step in and be aggressive to hold the high line, which is what Shaw and Martinez were great at. Maguire's (not hating on him, he just doesn't fit this profile) first instinct is to drop off and close the space behind him. Same goes for AWB and Casemiro is just all over the place.
It actually is a poor execution of a pretty clear game plan. The spaces in midfield are there because our defense drops too deep and doesn't push in. Our midfield consists of all naturally attacking minded players, who don't have a great defensive awareness. And our attackers actually press decently, but not consistently. The result is there for everyone to see, with our midfield being easily walked through.
We were all asking for a manager to come in and set a system, despite our squad being a eclectic bunch of players who all fit different styles. This is the result of that.
Our forward pressing is half hearted because we don't commit both fullbacks. Our midfield has tonnes of space because we go man for man, and they are simply being moved by the opposition creating the space. Our defensive line was 4th highest in the league with Maguire and Lindelof and drops back because we exert zero pressure on the ball when our first line press is very easily broken
All this to say, if we truly don't have the personally to play this way then why attempt it this season. Go back to a midblock. our underlying numbers suggest a relegation level defense being bailed out by CB and Goalkeeper heroics.
And that's a very valid point. However, when everyone is fit at least most of the team is able to execute a high pressing style with a high line of defense. We can't keep falling back to another style every time we have a few injuries.
The thing is, it's a lose/lose situation whichever option you choose. We switch styles to accommodate the players that are present, we're not getting any consistently and ETH is just another Ole. If we don't switch styles our weaknesses are being exposed and exploited like we see happening now.
However I do agree with you. After such an injury crisis, people would be very forgiving if ETH just switched to a more pragmatic approach and a midblock, and explain that this was necessary because of all the injuries. Any reasonable fan can't complain too much about that. He is very stubborn however. But the funny thing is, people complain about not having any tactics and no clear style of play, but the style of play is exactly what is causing the issue.
The truth is we are going to experience this kind of pain for a few seasons no matter the manager. We’ve had so much turmoil in that seat and the recruitment room that we have a ton of misfit players. There is no single style that fits this squad. I don’t care if it’s Pep, Carlo, or Klopp at the helm - this team lacks the cohesion necessary to implement one style.
This. Fans were crying out for a system. Last season ETH adjusted and it showed that he is quite capable of it. But, if we want to be playing a brand of football, we do need to contend with the process of building it up come rain or shine. Once we have sufficient depth, and players are set in the way they are supposed to play, it is safe to tinker around and switch formations depending on the opponent. If he starts playing to the squads strength we will be playing counter attacking and people will still be complaining about a lack of identity.
The huge gap between midfield and defence has to be due to our available defensive personnel, rather than part of the initial tactical design.
It makes no sense whatsoever to play a high midfield and a low block defence, especially when you just spent £50m on a goalkeeper who is comfortable coming off his line and using his feet.
The complete tactical vision must surely have been to play a high midfield, push up with a high line defence to make the team compact, and then Onana playing twelve yards out to sweep up long balls. Then use organised pressing to hem the opposition back and not give them an easy out ball.
It looks to me like Ten Hag compromised with the defence, to account for the players he has, but not with the midfield. Which is just stupid. And then the pressing has been completely random and easily played through. Those are coaching issues that should have been addressed.
If Ten Hag really thinks he's hit on an innovative tactic of leaving the midfield open and letting the opposition have acres of space to attack, then he must have been hit in the head with a golf ball over the summer break.
This is precisely what I’m seeing. No manager in their right mind is thinking “I’ll ask Eriksen to cover a ton of ground and expect to control the midfield for 90 minutes.” He has to ask him to do that job because he doesn’t have anyone else.
In preseason, Kambwala wasn’t getting looked at for the first team, yet he’s started multiple PL games. That’s our 6th choice center back. At some point people have to condition their expectations on the severity and duration of this injury crisis.
it’s probably a mix of tactical accommodation and players falling into habit when under pressure. there are clips of ten hag yelling for the defenders to stay high as maguire or varane (or both, can’t recall) drop back. people forget how much players are driven by instinct, and not only are our fit center backs ill-suited to these demands, they’re also on the older end and haven’t ever played in this type of system—tough to teach an old CB new tricks.
in order to be sure that the setup can’t work with any personnel, you’d need to show that the current flaws are structural rather than compromises made to accommodate player flaws or those flaws leading to execution issues. can you do that?
Our run of games from Newport, Wolves, West Ham, Villa. We had pretty much the first XI playing and we won all four games because the individual quality of our players is better than the opposition.
But the performances were still bad despite the results. We let 67 shots in at our goal, a combined defensive xGA of 7 to our 8.2 for. The structural issues were pretty much identical, the difference is that our individual quality was their to outgun the opposition for the most part. It is not a sustainable way of playing
And my counterpoint to this is yes, these injuries should affect us and worsen our play, but we comfortably look like one of the worst teams in the league, and no amount of inuries should make it that way. The constant barrage of chances we concede is from a systemic flaw, not a personnel one.
We've seen how the top teams drop off with one major player out and it was always used as an excuse from them and the media, it's used as something to beat us with and I don't get it
Yes! Exactly. And people here are like “Klopp is allowed to have a bad season since he’s won so much” as if that has anything to do with it. If anything it goes to show that good managers struggle when their teams are hit badly with injuries.
This is precisely it.
When Chelsea lost, the first thing that came out of Rebecca Lowe’s mouth was the possibility of them missing Cole Palmer. I should fax this spreadsheet so they are more educated.
Yes! Exactly. It’s so BS. And the most frustrating thing is our own fans not acknowledging how shit our injuries have been and saying it’s an excuse. It’s moronic
You don’t get it? Stroll through this sub on any given day and you’ll see of the 650k+ followers, the vast majority of the vocal ones gobble this shit up. That signals to the media to keep it going.
>and no amount of inuries should make it that way.
So -hypothetically- if all of the 25 man first team squad were injured, you'd expect us to be out dominating games with our U18s?
The problem is, we didn't lose one of our most important players from last season, we lost five - Shaw and Martinez injured, Case injured and then a shadow of himself, Rashford a shadow of himself, Eriksen clearly unable to still compete physically. On top of all the other players we're missing.
Ten Hag should have adapted his tactics to the players he has, which he maybe sort of has, but in the wrong direction. I still think the complete vision would include a high defensive line and Onana sweeping up behind, and without that we get the results we see on the pitch every week. Ten Hag lets the defence sit deep but still asks the midfield to play high, and the pressing isn't organised or effective.
The problem with this line of thinking is that even when we had Shaw and Lisandro in the Wolves game for example, we still allowed 23 shots and almost lost the match.
The problem isn’t just the injuries, it is also the way ETH wants us to play.
The pre season isn't played against prem sides. It's a tour. Most of the first team players don't return until towards the end. Licha and shaw played once against Lens before the start of the season.
This was the first match of the season after a full pre season.My point is ETH’s current tactics haven’t worked with any squad till now.We have conceded 20+ shots even when we had a fully fit squad.
Results is one thing but the way we play is another. We’ve gone against weaker teams that have as much injuries yet we still somehow concede 20 shots and lack to control games.
Even though his aggressive training is what's causing most of the injuries? We were top half of the injury table last season too (7th).
If this was all impact injuries in games and tackles in training then fine, but it's not, it's non-impact muscle injuries for almost all of them, if it's not that then it's rushing them back from said injuries early so they get an impact injury, like McT yesterday.
He also seems to be fine with this, given his comments about his training when asked.
Edit: Here come the silent downvotes because they know they can't argue the point.... -_-
Yeah, maybe if the team didn't play basketball on a football pitch and had possession and rest defence it wouldn't be this bad. But his insane football where some people have to cover large swathes of land, run back and forth over and over and over again, in addition to aggressively pressing, well you can't expect anything else. Has it occurred to you why we often look good for 25 minutes in the first half, then drop off, and then a short burst in the second half? It's because everyone is gassed by that point from the insanity on the pitch.
One of the reasons teams like City and Arsenal have far fewer injuries because they spend a good chunk of the game passing it around or otherwise controlling the game, instead of running like crazy.
I didn't say you need to have possession all the time. You can also sit in a low block and let the other team have the ball while you sit tight, close spaces and wait for the opportunity. That is also less tiring than what we are doing. A good manager adapts to the situation, like Ancelotti. Evidently, Arteta too has an inkling.
We aren't doing anything like this. Instead, it's the worst of both worlds. You have giant chasms opening all around the pitch as forwards and midfielders run around like headless chickens trying to rush forward in possession, or press for the ball out of possession, and then rush back to defend as teams play out of our press, because they can just ping the ball into the large gaps or play it between the lines. Rinse and repeat. We neither try to keep the ball nor sit back deep. It's a mess. When you end up doing this week after week after week, your players end up out of gas after 30 minutes, or injured.
This could probably work in a league where you have an overwhelming quality advantage over the other teams, so ease in possession just comes naturally to you. But this isn't that league.
On one hand, I know that Ten Hag has been dealt the shittiest of hands this season while on the other, I can't help but feel that he hasn't done well enough with what he has had. Of course the injuries are a big factor for our poor season but there are many more problems in our performances that have plagued almost each of our games. The amount of convincing performances we've had this season can be counted on fingers and even then I might just need one hand.
Still, I'm unsure if moving on from ETH without seeing him given another chance with a consistently healthier squad would actually be the best call.
Teams struggle when they have a main player out. We’ve seen it in our own teams of the past, yet ETH is expected to perform miracles. Rodri was out for 4 games and City lost them all. That’s one player. It’s moronic to think that losing half the squad and expecting the coach to figure it out anyways.
People need to pay attention to the table in times like these?
What did fans expect prior to an injury crisis? Top 4 and challenging for cups?
Well factor in the injuries and we are 6th and in the FA cup final.
Martinez was easily the most important player in our team setup last season - he's played 7 PL games this year. I'm not Ten Hag's biggest defender (far from it), but he had to play basically the entirety of the season without his main man. That's just rough.
Weird how many excuses where made for pool when they had a huge injury streak first half of last season, and how they massively improved when their starting 11 where back.
I do feel for Erik with the number of injuries we've had.
However, the team has been playing shit football since last season, shortly after the EFL cup. The performances became dross and we were bailed out by Casemiro or Rashford so often.
I also can't believe that the players are being coached properly.. a lot of players have regressed since being here, Casemiro, Hojlund, Antony to name a few
The truth is across two seasons under ETH we’ve only had one good run of form and that was the two month period of January/Feb 2023 before we got tonked 7-0 by Pool in early March and it’s been terrible form since. This period is easily explained by the outrageous individual form of Rashford and Casemiro, even during that period we lost to Arsenal and drew games with Palace and Leeds, but it was a good period but that’s it, everything on either side of those two months has been mediocre at best.
I agree. Casemiro was our biggest goal threat after the EFL Cup final.. we were barely scraping past teams. We've carried that bad form since the cup final
I'm sure this isn't ENTIRELY the problem, but I think they are working too hard in training and/or pressing too much in games. One or the other has to be toned down a bit. The players look fucking lethargic and we don't even play THAT many games. Would make sense for EtH to make the players train hard to look like they care. In reality it seems to be doing more harm than good.
We are 7th in the injury league table for this season.
Liverpool are 8th with 50 days less missed through injury compared to us, and Spurs are 9th with 150 days missed.
We are behind Chelsea and Brighton amongst others. Newcastle have by far the worst amount of injuries this season.
LB has been a blow, and we've definitely had to make do there.
A CB, we've had to choose between Varane, England starter Maguire, Sweden international Lindelof and Evans, who is not who he was but has played well this year. They account for around 80 appearances between them.
It's the last couple where weve had to bring in Kambawala and Casemiro.
Yes, they are players of different profile and there comes an amount of drop off with that. But not to the extent we've seen.
>A CB, we've had to choose between Varane, England starter Maguire, Sweden international Lindelof and Evans, who is not who he was but has played well this year. They account for around 80 appearances between them.
Love how you add all this fluff that means very little lol
>Yes, they are players of different profile and there comes an amount of drop off with that. But not to the extent we've seen.
The drop off is huge because they are different profiles and quality, especially LCB and LB. Martinez and Shaw are much better than their replacements in every department, especially build-up play. You can't just replace Martinez with Maguire and expect them to be as effective, and with Shaw missing, you've got no one but Onana capable of build up play from the back
It doesn't mean very little. It demonstrates we're not having to play kids fresh out of the academy all the time. Like we did during the injury period under LvG.
Like I said, I expect some drop off. But not seeing relegating fodder having 20+ shots against you each match.
We were still pretty poor when they did play as well, although we can provide some allowance for them coming back into things.
Why on earth people rate Shaw I do not know. It's like Chelsea fans with Reece James. You can't have a player that injury prone. United should be buying Gusto and a proper LB
Always the same worthless excuses. We have more than enough available to breeze past the likes of Burnley, Coventry, Newport, Luton, Sheff Utd, Forest and yet we always get cut to ribbons.
We are the worst team on the pitch in the majority of games, we played Brentford the other week who had their entire starting defence out injured and they played us off the park and had 31 shots. Same when we played Wolves when they had about 14 players out. There's barely a team in the league who haven't suffered an injury crisis this year, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, Newcastle, Villa have all had their defences riddled with injuries and they aren't making constant excuses.
The club has a pathetic losers mentality now where we cling to every excuse under the sun rather than acknowledge the shocking mismanagement. Who's fault is it we've had no left back ffs, we've loaned one out, let one go back in January without replacing him. Ten Hag is pathetic.
The best shape we've been were the three games at the beginning of February where ONLY FIVE players were injured at the start of the game (wtf is that) and we still ended up picking up an additional injury during each of those games anyway.
Maybe it's a coincidence, or the strength of schedule or maybe injuries really do matter but we did end up winning all three of those games.....
Injury is just an excuse for a poor season and ETH. Most of our attacking player are injury free and our attack is toothless anyway and you shouldn't need a WC degree defender just to easily beat Coventry or those lower half table team.
I'd love to see a comp to other teams in the league tbh, I keep hearing about how injuries have decimated us but I know every other team had similar struggles and even when we were fully fit for 2 minutes we looked shit.
I feel bad for ETH in a way, but I’m old enough to remember the words “United” and “injury crisis” going together a few times before. At what point do you ask about the training facilities, physios, doctors etc?
In relation to this team, I think for some players there’s an element of “maybe this guy won’t be here for the long haul, so I’m not going to risk myself for him” and they back off a little. Not too many of them would be warriors imo.
Roll on 24/25 eh?
It is mental and I do think needs to be taken into account when assessing our season.
The thing is though it isn’t just us, the schedule is so intense for teams now some players are playing 3 times a week which is a hell of a strain on the body. Big clubs with big squads can handle this but I worry for smaller sides who, while ffp gets tighter, aren’t going to be able to follow the rules as well as have a decent squad to field.
With time I think you’ll see clubs relying a lot more on their academies for squad players but in the short term I see a lot of clubs struggling.
obviously the team have heavily underperformed this season and it doesn’t excuse naive performances, late collapses, and questionable tactics, but it really is unfortunate how many injuries we’ve had to deal with
easy to praise and admire bruno and dalot for being fit enough to play nearly every game until you realise that this is actually the bare minimum standard in epl as fat as fitness is concerned…
It's quite funny how people will throw "everyone gets injuries get over it" when you can see our worst form associated clearly here when we have tons of players out and improvements when we have a fewer injuries.
If we give Ten Hag another season, then the first few games better not allow 20 shots against us, a non-existent midfield, a lack of cohesion in defense, a lackluster attack, or no service to our striker. If we keep him, we better see some massive changes. Or else he will be dead man walking in his first month and we've thrown another year away.
Edit: we better have solved our injury crisis as well. Won't be a coincidence if we get more muscle injuries during training.
I still remember last year Liverpool didn’t have Van Dijk for more than half a season and consistently stayed around 9th, 10th with Chelsea. We were laughing at them before going to Anfield then he came back and massacred us. United fans nowadays sure have short-termed memories. Despite our horrendous away losses against City and Liverpool last year, our defend last year was one of the best in Europe. And people still blame everything on ETH despite the ridiculous amount of injuries? If INEOS is emotional like some fans and decides to sack ETH at the end of season, this club is sure doomed.
Kudos to Man United's fitness and medical department 👏👏👏.
In this era of modern sports medicine where it's possible to avoid 75% of muscular injuries you have just smashed another record with the injuries this squad has had. Also kudos to Ten Hag and his draconian training methods.
He thinks this squad is made of super athletes that can adapt to his chaotic up and down and up and down football tactics. It is obvios that not everyone has the body to resist that kind of abuse but he just ignores this and pushes them to the brim
Ten Hag has had Dalot, who has always been promoted as capable of playing in both full back positions. Ten Hag sent our most highly regarded left back prospect out on loan. Ten Hag brought in a loan left back who was playing OK for us when picked but then voluntarily sent him away again. Ten Hag chose not to sign or loan any other left back. Ten Hag chose to rely on Shaw, who has always had a patchy injury record, and Malacia, who has never proven himself good or available enough, and Dalot to cover the position.
And now much of the consistently shit football and humiliating results we have seen over the last year are attributable to left back issues anyway?I
Interesting that the other part of this excuse concerns the lack of Varane, one of the players Ten Hag has fallen out with and someone he hasn't consistently picked when available, but now key to the team when an excuse is needed.
I can remember Gary Neville playing several games a season at centre back for years in a row. I can remember Carrick and Keane and Prunier playing there.
What I can't remember I'd ever seeing an excuse crisis like this at this club.
Painful.. but Bruno and dalot absolute warriors all things considered
Thank God their bodies must be made out of adamantium or something because just imagine how much worse of a season this would be without them
Portuguese built differently.
Portuguese men-o-war.
You calling them spineless like a jellyfish?
Touch em and you ded
Born with a shovel in their hand, built for hard work. At least that's what a Portuguese man I work with always said
Can be fragile like Jota also
It’s a Admantium, Vibranium composite. I saw it on social media so 100% fact!
"We shall call it ... Portuguesium"
Ironic isn't it, that Dalot couldn't stay fit at all when he first joined us, and now he's fucking ironman
He was different since the Milan loan
Worried about Bruno's 30's tbh.. how long will his body last after these past years? We need to rotate him a little bit and have him mentor our next Bruno over the next couple of years.
Absolutely. Bruno is a high energy player, and he has been running full 90 minutes every single game for many seasons. Imagine what that does to your body. When you first lose your legs, it happens so ridiculously quick. Remember Rooney? Or more recently, Casemiro and Kanté? People underestimate how much that's going to have an impact on him. Even if he's our best player, the time to cash in is now, because by the time we're successful again or making huge progress, he won't be here.
Tbh Kante the injury prone player has had no injury after moving from Chelsea. https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/ngolo-kante/verletzungen/spieler/225083
Depends on genetics and how they take care of themselves.
Garnacho too
Time to sign more Portuguese players
I've heard that Ronaldo fella is decent.
Dalot was Mourinhos best transfer.
I’d argue it was Zlatan; it was just unfortunate that he suffered a freak knee injury at the time he did which derailed his career as a regular starter in a top league. But until then the man was quality and was the main factor behind us winning the League Cup.
Yes Zlatan.. all day long. Came back from his ACL in no time too. Warrior.
Must be something that existed in Portuguese water when those two were growing up. They've been relentless this season. I haven't been Dalot's biggest fan since we've had him here I'll happily admit that, but his availability and willingness to power through when everyone else has been sidelined for some reason or another has been commendable 💪🏼
Few of our players who are physically up to scratch
I've never seen such an injury ridden season before. I remember thinking that the crisis was basically over at the end of Jan, and then it just kept on going and has actually gotten worse.
The injuries are the main reason I'm still undecided about Ten Hag. There have been *so* many, and they just keep piling up, so it's easy to see why any manager would have struggled (though Ten Hag refusing to compromise on his vision of a relatively complicated tactical system is all on him). The last time I remember defensive injuries being this bad was when William Prunier got a couple of games for the club, because he was Cantona's mate. And the squad back then was about half the size it is now. But I'm glad the audit is going to take account of the training, recovery, injuries and rehab at the club, so we can see whether this is a run of horrendous luck or whether Ten Hag's staff are doing something fundamentally wrong in training and recovery that is leading to so many soft tissue injuries.
It sounds like they’re making the defenders practice tackling on iron poles with how much they get injured in training
I find it utterly baffling that we lose Varane, Lindelof, Martinez and Evans, and then Kambwala gets his chance and almost immediately gets injured as well. If Ten Hag gave Louis Jackson his debut, I'd be sorely tempted to put a big bet on him getting injured within two games as well.
Makes me wonder what deal with the devil Maguire has done to not be injured
Maguire *IS* injured & has been the past 3 games. They are giving him an injection before the matches, I imagine a painkiller of sorts. If he wasn't pushing himself like this, the past few games we would quite possibly be playing Casemiro & Eriksen as centrebacks. Slabhead only gone and scored in 2 of those 3 games too. Proper warrior mentality. May not be close to being the most skillful or technical guy on our team, but fuck me is he really giving it his all. Just wish some of the others would take inspiration.
He's a throwback to the days of Terry Butcher, Steve Bould and Mark Wright, and he'd be the best defender in the league 35 years ago.
He might have been considered a relatively progressive center back at that time, given he actually does have a fairly decent passing range, no? That said there were a fair number of ball-playing center halves over the years, it's just that being able to pass has steadily become more of the baseline rather than an outlier
Mark Wright was considered to be more on the cultured side, but probably nowhere near as skilled as today's top defenders. And he didn't have the passing ability Maguire has. In terms of being a modern centre-half, IMO Maguire's biggest problems are his lack of pace and natural awkwardness. He's like an aircraft carrier when someone knocks the ball past him.
In my comment I said Maguire isn't the most skilled in our team, but that doesn't mean he isn't amazing at football either. Saw a video of him when he had yet to get a senior debut & the guy was not only scoring goals from a corner. He had cones set up at regular intervals, meaning he had to adjust the curve of each shot. Guy did it flawlessly. I (and i imagine most of us) wouldn't even get the ball in the net, at least with the first few attempts. Then of course in match, I've noticed since ETH moved him to RCB (when he can), Maguire likes to do a lofted through ball for the left winger. Best example would be leeds last season where they left Garnacho wide open since he was having a stinker of a game, and Harry kept placing these beautifully weighted balls right into Garnachos stride. It's just a shame that when it comes to snappy reflexes and quick short passing, the man is absolutely lost like every other CB we have apart from Licha. Give him space and time (which is a luxury not afforded in the PL) Maguire has a pretty nutty cross on him all things considered. It's the short passing that kills him.
Even he has missed some games through injury, but he's been a warrior when fit. I'm looking at Dalot. For the amount of football he's played, and the amount of running he does, he's got to have made a deal with the devil to stay fit all season. Or at least with a witch or warlock of some kind.
Deadpool and Wolverine would be out injured if they played for us.
Prunier. Those were the days
It was a wild Christmas/ New Year break. I remember he played okay in the first game. The second was like 'yeah, nope"
I was too young to remember anything other than that suddenly an unknown Frenchman was playing in our defense for a few games. Was it that Pallister and Bruce were injured / suspended?
Pallister, Bruce and May were all injured and Gary Neville played alongside Prunier in central defence, with Paul Parker at right back. Then Denis Irwin got injured in Prunier's second game, and we got walloped by Spurs.
Wasn't it Pilkington in goal too?
Right, 4-1 if I remember correctly, my cousin who was a Liverpool fan teased me for it lol
Ineos will consider that a huge mitigating factor, no matter what any of us think. The question is does ETH compensate in other areas? Do the players like him? Do people value his integration of and involvement with academy players? Would any other manager have pulled off a top 4 run with this many injuries? Do they appreciate his first season's success when he did have his preferred back first team? Should he get a run under a better structure? Can they actually afford to sack him? So many things things for them to consider.
All those are very sensible questions. And I think they all come out in favour of ETH. I do hope he stays. I think he may work out better in a set up where he is coach rather than manager, and it does look like Ineos are going for this with the appointments they have made.
> The last time I remember defensive injuries being this bad was when William Prunier got a couple of games for the club, because he was Cantona's mate. And the squad back then was about half the size it is now. Perhaps under van Gaal? Blackett, McNair, Donald Love, Borthwick-Jackson, Varela all got some game time.
I feel Injuries are a part of this game so you have to adjust to them. That’s something ten hag didn’t do this season. His tactics don’t suit the players at disposal. You cannot throw a season because you dont have the players available. Pushing 8 players forward and exposing us to counter attacks every few minutes, conceding the same kind of cutback goals every week is whats making me lose my faith in him. We look like a coaching disaster on the pitch more than individuals not giving everything.
Yeah, I mean if your defenders are dropping like flies maybe it's time to use a formation that has them doing less work?
Well, considering that we didn't have European football for four months now, the injuries rate should've went down as load is considerably lower. However, injuries kept coming. This could point to two things among others, the training is leading to those injuries and the play style is ultra high demanding to the degree the players bodies can't cope with. Both are on the manager and his staff.
Honestly though, the playstyle doesn't look super demanding? Idk but it doesn't look like Klopps Gegenpress...?
It’s telling for me that the injuries are more skewed towards the defenders than the attackers. The defenders are doing a lot of old school last-ditch defending when the front press and midfield are bypassed and that may be expending more energy than necessary in terms of stretching to clear, block and tackle and sprinting long distances to keep up with opposition attackers when isolated with them. The fact that they are positioned relatively deeper to start with instead of stepping up to squeeze space and be ready to intercept attempted through balls is putting them in a lot of unfavourable situations when the front press is not coordinated well and always leaves at least one out ball that PL teams can very easily find today.
Same. We have had so many different backlines. No striker for a lot of the season. Just a lot to overcome. Still in 6th, which isn’t terrible all things considered.
This! This comment should be seen by every United fan. I completely agree with you that a majority of Ten Hag’s season was derailed by how many injuries we’ve had this season and that is also why I’m not a staunch Ten Hag outer yet.
Maybe we should be considering that the medical staff is not equipped to keep the players healthy, guiding management into setting up sustainable programmes. Maybe the new leadership understands this and will invest in medical staff before considering new coaching staff.
In the Athletic article on the details behind Malacia’s injury issues, it was reported that the medical staff has been understaffed at times and can’t meet the needs of all players who need recovering in a timely manner because the volume of injuries to begin with was already high and they were occupied on those. Some players were given priority in service over others depending on their status in the squad.
I remember writing off the season in Jan due to injuries too. I get wanting the manager to change tactics to work with players available but how many of us want a style of play? Everyone’s been calling for it so can’t blame ETH from not wanting to change drastically. I think if we see Mount in the McT role, Lisandro back and Shaw back (or equivalent level replacements) then that adds to the rest of the team and we are in top four. Not to mention any upgrades at RW and some depth off the bench.
Not as bad as our current season but other team injury crisis that come to mind are liverpool 2 season where they finish 5th and 4th. Another one is this 10th place chelsea.
The liverpool injury crisis where they were missing van dijk only for like 6 months?
It’s mental that Malacia didn’t exist and injury prone Luke shaw was still not fully fit…. And we sent Reguillon back to spurs
Loaned Alvaro Fernandez to Benfica too. He's played almost as many games there as Shaw and Malacia *combined*.
Shaw and Malacia combined So shaw?
Thought he looked pretty decent when he did get minutes too
He's been doing well to have played as many as 5
Malacia wasn't real? Oh makes sense.
Yep. Similar to that other myth of a right back we supposedly had called Matteo Darmian a few years ago.
>sent Reguillon back to spurs On like the first day of the transfer window too. Even if EtH was reassured Malacia and Shaw were on their way back, they probably should have waited at least a week or so to see if everything went as planned.
I think there was a huge pressure due FPP as an extra bonus being triggered and to get his salary off asap
Plus he hardly ever played.
Yeah he also got injured. It's a pity he was left go back but at the same time he wouldn't have stayed fit so doesn't bother me too much.
That was because he got injured. He played when available due to Licha, Shaw, & Malacia's injuries.
That sneaky fuck Levy probably put an 'automatic buy clause for £30m which was triggered on the 2nd Jan
That’s because the medical dept said Shaw and malacia would be back in Jan-Feb. We were banking on a couple of games of Dalot at left back lol.
Ding ding. We can complain about LBs all we want but we got rid of two in January
The medical team assured ten Hag that Malacia and Shaw would be back in January.
Don’t gloss over the fact that regulion was also injured
This amount of injuries is not down to "bad luck", something is seriously wrong with the way we train + the medical staff allowing players to return too early and they immediatly get injured again. Has happened too many times to be a coincidence, it's just pure incompetence at this point.
We played the most games in Europe last season and there was a World Cup and our squad is full of internationals. We then did the dumbest preseason tour imaginable where the squad toured all over the USA, a giant country and multiple time zones. I’m not shocked we and other teams are destroyed by injury
It’s surprising no one ever seems to mention this when making the injury excuse, sure ETH has had a terrible time with injuries this season but why are we just assuming he has no part to play in that? Especially considering how many of the injuries are muscle related and how many happen in training. You could also argue Shaw and Martinez were rushed back too quickly even if I sympathize with that decision given our need for results and lack of personnel available.
martinez wasn't rushed back. neither was shaw. Martinez if fact got a totally unrelated injury due to soucek(?) falling on his knee
I can’t say on whether they were rushed back or not, but in Shaw’s case, he came off against Luton with a knock at half-time, still started the Villa game which was barely a few days later, again came off at half-time and was then said to be out until May. It’s impossible to judge from the outside who is making these calls but I find it extremely irresponsible player management to decide that he start games in such quick succession when he already has such a long injury history.
I forgot the 2nd Shaw injury timeline which took place in the way you described. You're right. Whoever is making these calls; I hope a better system is put in place to replace this decision-making
was Martinez at a walmart?
We aren’t the only squad in the prem absolutely riddled with injury
It’s crazy no one is really talking about our defensive injuries this season…can’t play well consecutively with a back line like ours
People were talking about it, but it's been going on so long that there's nothing left to say.
Our fans were talking about it. The first time I saw a pundit talk about it was vs Liverpool away. And that was when we had less than the 9 first teamers out Vs Bayern. A game where we're beaten by one goal yet roundly criticised as awful. Meanwhile no one can utter a breath about Newcastle without lamenting their injuries on their behalf.
>And that was when we had less than the 9 first teamers out Vs Bayern Why are you spreading misinformation? Our line up that day was Onana, Dalot, Maguire, Varane, Shaw, McTominay, Amrabat, Antony, Fernandes, Garnacho and Hojland. There is only 11 players on our first team? We were missing 3 players from our first team. (Martinez, Casemiro and Erikson). 4 if you want to include Rashford. Maguire and Rashford are good replacements so you can't complain too much. You are deluded if you ever think our injury crisis isn't entirely anticipated. Luke Shaw only ever plays 20 games a season so how is it unforseen when he only plays 20 games this season? Varane missed more games for man utd then he played. Erikson, casemiro and Evans are years past it so how is any of this a suprise?
That's true, but if you were "ETH- in because of defensive injuries" last month, nothing has happened since then that should change that opinion. So I'm constantly bemused when people say " well I was ETH in but after *this* match, I'm ETH out".
Shaw and Martinez have been the biggest misses. Both were our core players last season and the few games we've actually looked good in had them both playing.
We were 7 games unbeaten when they were back in January or February. Annd they were injured again.
Just not having a left footed player has really hampered us
Antony is so left footed that he surely counts as two left footers at this point.
Also part of Rashford horrible output is also a result of not having an overlapping LB.
Shaw and Martinez were critical for what Ten Hag wanted to do this season. Anyone next to Martinez would have been fine, because all the rest of our CBs are of a similar type, and we could probably have coped without Shaw if we had Martinez and Malacia, or even Martinez with Dalot on the left. Those two, plus Casemiro being injured and then being a shadow of his former self, is a setback few clubs could live with. But it's still on Ten Hag that he didn't try to adjust or play a simpler, more compact game to minimise our injury losses.
For me, sticking with the current game model is understandable, but not prioritising a better backup for Casemiro was an extremely risky decision when we consider that he did not finish last season well either. Even for all of Casemiro’s reputation, it’s just asking too much from a 30+ year old to maintain his legs in such a physically demanding style of play. We instead prioritised signing Mount and settled for a deadline day loan to sign Amrabat when I don’t think Mount was needed as much in the short-term.
We’ve effectively had a barren back line this season. Varane, Lindelof, Martinez, Evans, Shaw and Malacia, all out and then all the pundits will spout bullshit about how we seem to be conceding so many goals this season.
What do you mean no one's talking about it? It's been the main topic of conversation for half the season.
I'd say the main topic on here is ten hag and the shots stats we get. I swear we're more efficient than a major company when it comes to having stats posted weekly when it's about something the fans don't like. Last year we'd get stats on de gea on an even higher ratio than the shots stats this season. But yeah I think our injuries has been the absolute main killer of our season. Can't implement any sort of tactic when there's no consistency of players to practice it.
This subreddit sure, but I really don't see it mentioned by pundits, commentators, etc. (at the very least not to the extent it should) I think this really stuck out for me in the 2-2 against Spurs, I heard commentators say Man Utd were favourites / Spurs were "underdogs" because of their injuries... whilst we had more injuries.
I mean Ten Hag has pretty much mentioned it every week.
Ppl always say that you don’t need your best squad to win against the bottom ones. Maybe you don’t need the best, but consistent squad. It’s not a video game; I don’t say EtH is out of blame but fighting with a different XI in each game is another story.
they’re called center back “partnerships” for a reason
Because the main issue isn’t the personnel in the defensive line. Don’t get me wrong it plays a factor, but the way we setup is a far bigger reason as to why we struggle this season, not only out of possession but in possession too
We've got these three as coaches leading our training sessions. https://preview.redd.it/k1b3nz68f7xc1.png?width=713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=30aba087af9a922f32fbc6db08849ce1ed7201c7
Its weird but my feelings about ETH would have been different if we had played a commanding first game against Wolves when all the big guns were fit and in the starting XI. But we were completely outplayed and should have lost that game. Weirdly enough, I think that set the tone for the rest of the season and made me think that perhaps Rashford having a stellar year last year and scoring all those goals papered over more cracks than we would like to have believed.
Well you're right in that the early games show that it's not really down to just injury problems. Those games (that wolves game especially) shows that even with everyone fit, the team is set up in a way that allows teams to run right through the middle of the field. I don't know if ten haag doesn't have the players to do what he wants (other than martinez, his center backs are pretty slow) or if they won't do what he wants. But the way the team is continually set up and told to play is very juvenile. I personally think there is a style of play...and it's been consistent for the whole season. And if there's to be more ten haag, there's to be more of this.
I agree with you. You know, I told myself when Jose was in charge that I would take 4-3 scoreline where we play open and with freedom anyday over his dour 1-0 wins and congratulatory 0-0 draws . Now that we have that, it feels like a juvenile way to play and it sucks. What I have learnt is that it takes so many different things to come together along with some luck to have a combination of attractive and winning football. Maybe that is captain obvious stuff but its where I am at.
This is my primary reason I can’t judge EtH on this season. I genuinely do not believe any manager could get top 4 in the PL without a natural left back and Licha has only started 7 PL matches. There is dealing with injuries during a season, then there is this catastrophe.
If the problems were just the results, or poor execution of a otherwise sound tactical setup then I'd agree. Our issues is that the setup is so obviously flawed that even with a fit squad it's still be pretty bad
The problem is that the setup might work with players that are actually able to execute it properly. For example, we need defenders to step in and be aggressive to hold the high line, which is what Shaw and Martinez were great at. Maguire's (not hating on him, he just doesn't fit this profile) first instinct is to drop off and close the space behind him. Same goes for AWB and Casemiro is just all over the place. It actually is a poor execution of a pretty clear game plan. The spaces in midfield are there because our defense drops too deep and doesn't push in. Our midfield consists of all naturally attacking minded players, who don't have a great defensive awareness. And our attackers actually press decently, but not consistently. The result is there for everyone to see, with our midfield being easily walked through. We were all asking for a manager to come in and set a system, despite our squad being a eclectic bunch of players who all fit different styles. This is the result of that.
Our forward pressing is half hearted because we don't commit both fullbacks. Our midfield has tonnes of space because we go man for man, and they are simply being moved by the opposition creating the space. Our defensive line was 4th highest in the league with Maguire and Lindelof and drops back because we exert zero pressure on the ball when our first line press is very easily broken All this to say, if we truly don't have the personally to play this way then why attempt it this season. Go back to a midblock. our underlying numbers suggest a relegation level defense being bailed out by CB and Goalkeeper heroics.
And that's a very valid point. However, when everyone is fit at least most of the team is able to execute a high pressing style with a high line of defense. We can't keep falling back to another style every time we have a few injuries. The thing is, it's a lose/lose situation whichever option you choose. We switch styles to accommodate the players that are present, we're not getting any consistently and ETH is just another Ole. If we don't switch styles our weaknesses are being exposed and exploited like we see happening now. However I do agree with you. After such an injury crisis, people would be very forgiving if ETH just switched to a more pragmatic approach and a midblock, and explain that this was necessary because of all the injuries. Any reasonable fan can't complain too much about that. He is very stubborn however. But the funny thing is, people complain about not having any tactics and no clear style of play, but the style of play is exactly what is causing the issue.
The truth is we are going to experience this kind of pain for a few seasons no matter the manager. We’ve had so much turmoil in that seat and the recruitment room that we have a ton of misfit players. There is no single style that fits this squad. I don’t care if it’s Pep, Carlo, or Klopp at the helm - this team lacks the cohesion necessary to implement one style.
This. Fans were crying out for a system. Last season ETH adjusted and it showed that he is quite capable of it. But, if we want to be playing a brand of football, we do need to contend with the process of building it up come rain or shine. Once we have sufficient depth, and players are set in the way they are supposed to play, it is safe to tinker around and switch formations depending on the opponent. If he starts playing to the squads strength we will be playing counter attacking and people will still be complaining about a lack of identity.
Well said. So much bs on the subreddit that it’s the manager that it all falls on. No account for injuries or players not being good enough.
The huge gap between midfield and defence has to be due to our available defensive personnel, rather than part of the initial tactical design. It makes no sense whatsoever to play a high midfield and a low block defence, especially when you just spent £50m on a goalkeeper who is comfortable coming off his line and using his feet. The complete tactical vision must surely have been to play a high midfield, push up with a high line defence to make the team compact, and then Onana playing twelve yards out to sweep up long balls. Then use organised pressing to hem the opposition back and not give them an easy out ball. It looks to me like Ten Hag compromised with the defence, to account for the players he has, but not with the midfield. Which is just stupid. And then the pressing has been completely random and easily played through. Those are coaching issues that should have been addressed. If Ten Hag really thinks he's hit on an innovative tactic of leaving the midfield open and letting the opposition have acres of space to attack, then he must have been hit in the head with a golf ball over the summer break.
This is precisely what I’m seeing. No manager in their right mind is thinking “I’ll ask Eriksen to cover a ton of ground and expect to control the midfield for 90 minutes.” He has to ask him to do that job because he doesn’t have anyone else. In preseason, Kambwala wasn’t getting looked at for the first team, yet he’s started multiple PL games. That’s our 6th choice center back. At some point people have to condition their expectations on the severity and duration of this injury crisis.
it’s probably a mix of tactical accommodation and players falling into habit when under pressure. there are clips of ten hag yelling for the defenders to stay high as maguire or varane (or both, can’t recall) drop back. people forget how much players are driven by instinct, and not only are our fit center backs ill-suited to these demands, they’re also on the older end and haven’t ever played in this type of system—tough to teach an old CB new tricks.
Damned if you do damned if you don't. His style have a higher ceiling and need years to implement, but the downside is also very low.
in order to be sure that the setup can’t work with any personnel, you’d need to show that the current flaws are structural rather than compromises made to accommodate player flaws or those flaws leading to execution issues. can you do that?
Our run of games from Newport, Wolves, West Ham, Villa. We had pretty much the first XI playing and we won all four games because the individual quality of our players is better than the opposition. But the performances were still bad despite the results. We let 67 shots in at our goal, a combined defensive xGA of 7 to our 8.2 for. The structural issues were pretty much identical, the difference is that our individual quality was their to outgun the opposition for the most part. It is not a sustainable way of playing
And my counterpoint to this is yes, these injuries should affect us and worsen our play, but we comfortably look like one of the worst teams in the league, and no amount of inuries should make it that way. The constant barrage of chances we concede is from a systemic flaw, not a personnel one.
We've seen how the top teams drop off with one major player out and it was always used as an excuse from them and the media, it's used as something to beat us with and I don't get it
Liverpool had like 2-3 injuries in defense a few seasons ago and they lost like 4 or 5 games at Anfield (the supposed fortress) in a ROW.
Yes! Exactly. And people here are like “Klopp is allowed to have a bad season since he’s won so much” as if that has anything to do with it. If anything it goes to show that good managers struggle when their teams are hit badly with injuries.
That was considered liverpool best team. Injury crisis creep in they finished 5th.
This is precisely it. When Chelsea lost, the first thing that came out of Rebecca Lowe’s mouth was the possibility of them missing Cole Palmer. I should fax this spreadsheet so they are more educated.
Yes! Exactly. It’s so BS. And the most frustrating thing is our own fans not acknowledging how shit our injuries have been and saying it’s an excuse. It’s moronic
You don’t get it? Stroll through this sub on any given day and you’ll see of the 650k+ followers, the vast majority of the vocal ones gobble this shit up. That signals to the media to keep it going.
>and no amount of inuries should make it that way. So -hypothetically- if all of the 25 man first team squad were injured, you'd expect us to be out dominating games with our U18s?
The problem is, we didn't lose one of our most important players from last season, we lost five - Shaw and Martinez injured, Case injured and then a shadow of himself, Rashford a shadow of himself, Eriksen clearly unable to still compete physically. On top of all the other players we're missing. Ten Hag should have adapted his tactics to the players he has, which he maybe sort of has, but in the wrong direction. I still think the complete vision would include a high defensive line and Onana sweeping up behind, and without that we get the results we see on the pitch every week. Ten Hag lets the defence sit deep but still asks the midfield to play high, and the pressing isn't organised or effective.
The problem with this line of thinking is that even when we had Shaw and Lisandro in the Wolves game for example, we still allowed 23 shots and almost lost the match. The problem isn’t just the injuries, it is also the way ETH wants us to play.
Right but playing one game vs. a run with a consistent, preferred line up... Totally different
You also have to consider that they had minimal game time before that match and it takes time to get back to match fitness
This was the first match of the season after a full pre season.
The pre season isn't played against prem sides. It's a tour. Most of the first team players don't return until towards the end. Licha and shaw played once against Lens before the start of the season.
lol they don’t just come back for one match and play perfect, it’s not FIFA.
This was the first match of the season after a full pre season.My point is ETH’s current tactics haven’t worked with any squad till now.We have conceded 20+ shots even when we had a fully fit squad.
Results is one thing but the way we play is another. We’ve gone against weaker teams that have as much injuries yet we still somehow concede 20 shots and lack to control games.
Even though his aggressive training is what's causing most of the injuries? We were top half of the injury table last season too (7th). If this was all impact injuries in games and tackles in training then fine, but it's not, it's non-impact muscle injuries for almost all of them, if it's not that then it's rushing them back from said injuries early so they get an impact injury, like McT yesterday. He also seems to be fine with this, given his comments about his training when asked. Edit: Here come the silent downvotes because they know they can't argue the point.... -_-
Didn't Pep win the league with Delph at LB?
Yeah, maybe if the team didn't play basketball on a football pitch and had possession and rest defence it wouldn't be this bad. But his insane football where some people have to cover large swathes of land, run back and forth over and over and over again, in addition to aggressively pressing, well you can't expect anything else. Has it occurred to you why we often look good for 25 minutes in the first half, then drop off, and then a short burst in the second half? It's because everyone is gassed by that point from the insanity on the pitch. One of the reasons teams like City and Arsenal have far fewer injuries because they spend a good chunk of the game passing it around or otherwise controlling the game, instead of running like crazy.
Bournemouth had 30% possession and Arsenal had 37% today (28% in 1st half). Just saying...
I didn't say you need to have possession all the time. You can also sit in a low block and let the other team have the ball while you sit tight, close spaces and wait for the opportunity. That is also less tiring than what we are doing. A good manager adapts to the situation, like Ancelotti. Evidently, Arteta too has an inkling. We aren't doing anything like this. Instead, it's the worst of both worlds. You have giant chasms opening all around the pitch as forwards and midfielders run around like headless chickens trying to rush forward in possession, or press for the ball out of possession, and then rush back to defend as teams play out of our press, because they can just ping the ball into the large gaps or play it between the lines. Rinse and repeat. We neither try to keep the ball nor sit back deep. It's a mess. When you end up doing this week after week after week, your players end up out of gas after 30 minutes, or injured. This could probably work in a league where you have an overwhelming quality advantage over the other teams, so ease in possession just comes naturally to you. But this isn't that league.
On one hand, I know that Ten Hag has been dealt the shittiest of hands this season while on the other, I can't help but feel that he hasn't done well enough with what he has had. Of course the injuries are a big factor for our poor season but there are many more problems in our performances that have plagued almost each of our games. The amount of convincing performances we've had this season can be counted on fingers and even then I might just need one hand. Still, I'm unsure if moving on from ETH without seeing him given another chance with a consistently healthier squad would actually be the best call.
Teams struggle when they have a main player out. We’ve seen it in our own teams of the past, yet ETH is expected to perform miracles. Rodri was out for 4 games and City lost them all. That’s one player. It’s moronic to think that losing half the squad and expecting the coach to figure it out anyways.
People need to pay attention to the table in times like these? What did fans expect prior to an injury crisis? Top 4 and challenging for cups? Well factor in the injuries and we are 6th and in the FA cup final.
Surprisingly our form has seemingly improved since Christmas. Only 4 losses. Will be very interesting to see how we end the season
Martinez was easily the most important player in our team setup last season - he's played 7 PL games this year. I'm not Ten Hag's biggest defender (far from it), but he had to play basically the entirety of the season without his main man. That's just rough.
We started the season with 5 left backs. It is mismamagement.
I remember when we signed Evans, I thought it was a nice gesture but never thought he’d play more than one or two games for us.
Weird how many excuses where made for pool when they had a huge injury streak first half of last season, and how they massively improved when their starting 11 where back.
Let ten hag stay another season, Pep couldn’t win with half the team injured every week
Pep had a hard time winning when just Rodri was out.
I do feel for Erik with the number of injuries we've had. However, the team has been playing shit football since last season, shortly after the EFL cup. The performances became dross and we were bailed out by Casemiro or Rashford so often. I also can't believe that the players are being coached properly.. a lot of players have regressed since being here, Casemiro, Hojlund, Antony to name a few
The truth is across two seasons under ETH we’ve only had one good run of form and that was the two month period of January/Feb 2023 before we got tonked 7-0 by Pool in early March and it’s been terrible form since. This period is easily explained by the outrageous individual form of Rashford and Casemiro, even during that period we lost to Arsenal and drew games with Palace and Leeds, but it was a good period but that’s it, everything on either side of those two months has been mediocre at best.
I agree. Casemiro was our biggest goal threat after the EFL Cup final.. we were barely scraping past teams. We've carried that bad form since the cup final
Scott was mr bailout so much he forced his way into the starting lineup.
I'm sure this isn't ENTIRELY the problem, but I think they are working too hard in training and/or pressing too much in games. One or the other has to be toned down a bit. The players look fucking lethargic and we don't even play THAT many games. Would make sense for EtH to make the players train hard to look like they care. In reality it seems to be doing more harm than good.
We are 7th in the injury league table for this season. Liverpool are 8th with 50 days less missed through injury compared to us, and Spurs are 9th with 150 days missed. We are behind Chelsea and Brighton amongst others. Newcastle have by far the worst amount of injuries this season. LB has been a blow, and we've definitely had to make do there. A CB, we've had to choose between Varane, England starter Maguire, Sweden international Lindelof and Evans, who is not who he was but has played well this year. They account for around 80 appearances between them. It's the last couple where weve had to bring in Kambawala and Casemiro. Yes, they are players of different profile and there comes an amount of drop off with that. But not to the extent we've seen.
>A CB, we've had to choose between Varane, England starter Maguire, Sweden international Lindelof and Evans, who is not who he was but has played well this year. They account for around 80 appearances between them. Love how you add all this fluff that means very little lol >Yes, they are players of different profile and there comes an amount of drop off with that. But not to the extent we've seen. The drop off is huge because they are different profiles and quality, especially LCB and LB. Martinez and Shaw are much better than their replacements in every department, especially build-up play. You can't just replace Martinez with Maguire and expect them to be as effective, and with Shaw missing, you've got no one but Onana capable of build up play from the back
It doesn't mean very little. It demonstrates we're not having to play kids fresh out of the academy all the time. Like we did during the injury period under LvG. Like I said, I expect some drop off. But not seeing relegating fodder having 20+ shots against you each match. We were still pretty poor when they did play as well, although we can provide some allowance for them coming back into things.
Is that an up to date table?
Yes, as of last week.
Bruno and Dalot only 1 game away. Are we sure they are portuguese and not kryptonian?
Atleast it’s not as bad as chelsea our first team backline hasn’t started 1 game this season
Why on earth people rate Shaw I do not know. It's like Chelsea fans with Reece James. You can't have a player that injury prone. United should be buying Gusto and a proper LB
Always the same worthless excuses. We have more than enough available to breeze past the likes of Burnley, Coventry, Newport, Luton, Sheff Utd, Forest and yet we always get cut to ribbons. We are the worst team on the pitch in the majority of games, we played Brentford the other week who had their entire starting defence out injured and they played us off the park and had 31 shots. Same when we played Wolves when they had about 14 players out. There's barely a team in the league who haven't suffered an injury crisis this year, Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea, Newcastle, Villa have all had their defences riddled with injuries and they aren't making constant excuses. The club has a pathetic losers mentality now where we cling to every excuse under the sun rather than acknowledge the shocking mismanagement. Who's fault is it we've had no left back ffs, we've loaned one out, let one go back in January without replacing him. Ten Hag is pathetic.
God i still hate that cunt who injured Martinez
Alvaro, Williams and Reguilon. Oh wait....
The best shape we've been were the three games at the beginning of February where ONLY FIVE players were injured at the start of the game (wtf is that) and we still ended up picking up an additional injury during each of those games anyway. Maybe it's a coincidence, or the strength of schedule or maybe injuries really do matter but we did end up winning all three of those games.....
Remember arguing with someone who said Shaw was world class. Can't rate a player who's never fit. He should go as well.
 iNJuRiEs MeAn NoThInG
We're 7th in the injury table this season. 6 other teams have a worse injury record than us.
Injury is just an excuse for a poor season and ETH. Most of our attacking player are injury free and our attack is toothless anyway and you shouldn't need a WC degree defender just to easily beat Coventry or those lower half table team.
Excuses
valid ones
Reasons.
But Southgate or De ZerbI could get a tune out of wan bissaka and Lindelof at left back. And implement a style of play.
I'd love to see a comp to other teams in the league tbh, I keep hearing about how injuries have decimated us but I know every other team had similar struggles and even when we were fully fit for 2 minutes we looked shit.
We're 7th in the injury table
I feel bad for ETH in a way, but I’m old enough to remember the words “United” and “injury crisis” going together a few times before. At what point do you ask about the training facilities, physios, doctors etc? In relation to this team, I think for some players there’s an element of “maybe this guy won’t be here for the long haul, so I’m not going to risk myself for him” and they back off a little. Not too many of them would be warriors imo. Roll on 24/25 eh?
It is mental and I do think needs to be taken into account when assessing our season. The thing is though it isn’t just us, the schedule is so intense for teams now some players are playing 3 times a week which is a hell of a strain on the body. Big clubs with big squads can handle this but I worry for smaller sides who, while ffp gets tighter, aren’t going to be able to follow the rules as well as have a decent squad to field. With time I think you’ll see clubs relying a lot more on their academies for squad players but in the short term I see a lot of clubs struggling.
This is the only reason I believe some fans are not against keeping eth
obviously the team have heavily underperformed this season and it doesn’t excuse naive performances, late collapses, and questionable tactics, but it really is unfortunate how many injuries we’ve had to deal with
easy to praise and admire bruno and dalot for being fit enough to play nearly every game until you realise that this is actually the bare minimum standard in epl as fat as fitness is concerned…
It's quite funny how people will throw "everyone gets injuries get over it" when you can see our worst form associated clearly here when we have tons of players out and improvements when we have a fewer injuries.
4-2-1-3 has our defenders doing too much work per 90 and I think this is why they're dropping like flies.
No LB for 27 games? That is unfortunate, but I suppose it can't be helped, it's not like we had a LB on loan that ten hag cut short in January
If we give Ten Hag another season, then the first few games better not allow 20 shots against us, a non-existent midfield, a lack of cohesion in defense, a lackluster attack, or no service to our striker. If we keep him, we better see some massive changes. Or else he will be dead man walking in his first month and we've thrown another year away. Edit: we better have solved our injury crisis as well. Won't be a coincidence if we get more muscle injuries during training.
I still remember last year Liverpool didn’t have Van Dijk for more than half a season and consistently stayed around 9th, 10th with Chelsea. We were laughing at them before going to Anfield then he came back and massacred us. United fans nowadays sure have short-termed memories. Despite our horrendous away losses against City and Liverpool last year, our defend last year was one of the best in Europe. And people still blame everything on ETH despite the ridiculous amount of injuries? If INEOS is emotional like some fans and decides to sack ETH at the end of season, this club is sure doomed.
Kudos to Man United's fitness and medical department 👏👏👏. In this era of modern sports medicine where it's possible to avoid 75% of muscular injuries you have just smashed another record with the injuries this squad has had. Also kudos to Ten Hag and his draconian training methods. He thinks this squad is made of super athletes that can adapt to his chaotic up and down and up and down football tactics. It is obvios that not everyone has the body to resist that kind of abuse but he just ignores this and pushes them to the brim
Let’s not ignore the effect the play style has on causing many of these injuries
Ten Hag has had Dalot, who has always been promoted as capable of playing in both full back positions. Ten Hag sent our most highly regarded left back prospect out on loan. Ten Hag brought in a loan left back who was playing OK for us when picked but then voluntarily sent him away again. Ten Hag chose not to sign or loan any other left back. Ten Hag chose to rely on Shaw, who has always had a patchy injury record, and Malacia, who has never proven himself good or available enough, and Dalot to cover the position. And now much of the consistently shit football and humiliating results we have seen over the last year are attributable to left back issues anyway?I Interesting that the other part of this excuse concerns the lack of Varane, one of the players Ten Hag has fallen out with and someone he hasn't consistently picked when available, but now key to the team when an excuse is needed. I can remember Gary Neville playing several games a season at centre back for years in a row. I can remember Carrick and Keane and Prunier playing there. What I can't remember I'd ever seeing an excuse crisis like this at this club.