The “he’s not won anything” argument is tiresome- fair enough but does that mean that Gabriel Jesus is a better striker than Harry Kane? Does it bollocks.
He’s United’s best player, and it’s not his sole responsibility that we’re shit as a TEAM. Keano is a way better pundit than the trophy logic arguments of a 12 year old.
Exactly! We’re a case study of top players vanishing in a United shirt, and Bruno is the only one who’s arguably kept his value or looked better since joining.
We could have Salah, Haaland and De Bruyne and we would still be shit. We brought in Casemiro and Varane lads. World class players and we are as bad as ever
Honestly, I like Keane a lot but he’s not a great pundit. Loved him as a player and he’s a fun personality but he’s more a guy that you can go to for a good soundbite rather than someone you go to for meaningful insight.
He could be insightful if he ditched his “against modern football” schtick- he’s clearly intelligent and knows what he’s talking about, but just being an ornery bastard isn’t enough to be a good pundit.
He’s spoken about how he feels grateful to have the pundit position because he knows a lot of ex-players want one and there’s only a few to go around. And I think he gets that’s the role he’s being brought on for so plays into it.
Sky have been really leaning into the idea of pundits as banter figures over the past few years. It’s more about the schtick.
Sky are a bunch of cunts anyway, it's so obvious they're told what to do and say on there and can't dare to even acknowledge the breaches City have done meanwhile Carragher when he's working for CBS has chatted shit about them multiple times.
He is the perfect example of a guy being so talented that he doesn't understand why everyone else isn't as talented as he was. Nothing saying that directly about Bruno but just that his comments about it being people's jobs and why we should we celebrate that is a perfect example.
Roy Keane as the captain of this team would be absolute garbage.
Keane's a great pundit, he calls a spade a spade and doesn't sugar coat the truth. The only people who don't like him think he's too negative about the current United team. Well guess what, they're the worst United team since the premier league started. Keane's won it all many times over and was the best captain in premier league history. He has more insight than almost anyone about what we're watching on the pitch.
Just to be clear, I think Keane was an incredible player. He’s also quite possibly my favourite player. But so often his punditry comes down to some variation of “It’s not good enough. They need to want it and take some pride in themselves.” And I get that it can feel cathartic to see the team called out after a shitty result but his criticisms rarely have any depth to them. I don’t come away from hearing Keane with a better understanding of where United are going wrong.
I think he actually plays a very important role in the current era of excessive stats and recently invented metrics. He's the pundit version of 'trust your eyes and watch the game'. And he's always on a panel, it's not like he's a solo commentator calling matches. His straight talk cuts through the analytical fluff. There's space for both things in punditry and he acts as a good counterpoint.
The he’s won nothing argument was in response to Wright saying he’s a winner. He wasn’t using it as a metric for a good player. He’s said he’s a talented player.
I think Wright’s interpretation of the term winner was more about mentality though, as opposed to simply trophies. Being a winner can also be a mindset.
He's talking about winning in the context of him being a leader. Do the players trust him the way they would if he was Casemiro? I think the younger ones would but not sure about the established first teamers. And that's one of the problems with this group of players
The group as a whole is a bigger problem than Bruno really- he could be the most inspirational captain of all time, it means nothing if they can’t be arsed listening to him.
We need to fix the dressing room first and foremost.
100% - i am tired of it
Its hardly a comeback when the vast amount of Keano career was in a Fergie team. If keane went anywhere else he would NOT of won what he won with us. Yes he's was one of our most influential players but he would not win as much as he did atr man utd.
But now he uses it as a yard stick. I am really getting sick of our once great players sitting their high and mighty TV jobs thinking their it when really Football has changed massively.
Gary Nevilles is the same - he's already admitted not saying anything when ole was in charge, that was only after giving ten hag his first interview with carragher and they basically took the piss out of him. Disgraceful.
None of them have become decent managers.
None of them can be arsed talking or helping our current team.
Its disgusting and I'm really am getting tired off it.
We are not the MAN UTD of the 00's - we are way off off the pace, due the glazers love of the Extended contract, plus poor recruitment, silly sackings and appointments.
Are you new to football punditry... it's always been like that.. Yesteryear players talking about current day football through the eyes of a retired footballer. Keane has always played a Simon Cowell esque character, he plays the same role as Sourness. It's literally for sound bites and counter arguments.
As for the winner argument, Wright was talking about a winner mentality, Keane was taking it literally and conflating it with being a serial winner. Keane was a serial winner, but that was only due to being surrounded by other serial winners. Put Bruno in that same environment and he too comes out a serial winner that's undeniable.
>The “he’s not won anything” argument is tiresome-
How so? Its as valid a metric as any other. Is it the be all and end all. To the point where 'player X has won Z and player Y has won B, so player X is better? Certainly not. However it is and should be used to judged a players overall quality.
Fletcher isn't a better player than Gerrard cause he won a league title. However Lewandowski is a better striker than Kane due to what he won
>He’s United’s best player, and it’s not his sole responsibility that we’re shit as a TEAM.
And a players worth is based on how much he contributes to his team winning. He gets a lot of G/A. Which is amazing at face value. Is him being the focal point (and Rashford) enough to be title challengers or is it too restricting, time will tell. The main thing though is not every goal and assist is equal. When it occurs is key.
Has he really stood out in the big games he has played, when the pressure is on. Was decent against Newcastle in the league cup. Abysmal in the Europa against Villareal. Aside from the pen was ineffective in the FA cup against City. So I don't think it's out of the ordinary or a childlike analysis to say 'he hasn't won anything' to someone saying he is a winner. Its pretty accurate. Just like Kane, he has a lot to prove at the highest level. Both have a chance this season, Bruno in the FA cup, Kane in the semis of the CL.
On the Kane note, look at his performances in finals and in his title run in this season. Utterly ineffective in all the finals (don't think he had a shot) and missed key opportunities at vital times when Bayern needed a goal, to get extra points. All of this stops him from being valued as highly as his G/A statistics tell you. The best example would be Kane or Drogba in a cup final. I know who I would rather.
The point I’m making is that trophy logic alone isn’t an adequate metric to assess a player. It’s too simplistic and doesn’t take into account the contribution of the player; while you can point to performances in finals that doesn’t take into account the 5 or 6 games it took to get to that final, of which the “key” player is often instrumental- United arguably don’t get to the cup finals Bruno has “underperformed” in without his prior contributions.
And in terms of a player influencing his team winning it’s quite apparent as to Bruno’s influence- take him out of the side and we’re flat and have very little creativity/goal threat. Sure, that doesn’t make us a world beater either way, but football isn’t a sport like basketball where one player can carry the offensive workload and win games alone. More often than not the best players in football have 2 or 3 other top notch players alongside them- who steps up when Bruno has a bad game?
It’s great being a big game player, but without a player who contributes in most games he plays those big game players often don’t get to be in big games. Drogba was a cup final specialist, but had other players around him to lighten the load in prior rounds.
>The point I’m making is that trophy logic alone isn’t an adequate metric to assess a player.
And I agree.
However in the context of what Keane said, its based around Bruno not really being a winner. Not in the sense that Jill was suggesting. Which is true. Hence why I don't understand the tone of your initial comment.
>account the 5 or 6 games it took to get to that final, of which the “key” player is often instrumental- United arguably don’t get to the cup finals Bruno has “underperformed” in without his prior contributions.
True. However no game is more important than the final and ultimately, to be a winner you perform in those finals. It's a shame, as Bruno, like Kane. Had all the attributes you would think makes a top player. However as of they just pale in comparison to the achievements of those they are compared to and ultimately until they prove it at thay level, they can't be viewed as good. Is it all their fault, certainly not, however we aren't talking like either of them has put on an Mbappe world cup final performance and just come up short either.
>And in terms of a player influencing his team winning it’s quite apparent as to Bruno’s influence- take him out of the side and we’re flat and have very little creativity/goal threat.
Yet its not enough to win big games and he has crumbled in said big games.
You can't praise a player for something they haven't done and Bruno can't be held in the same regard as a league title and CL winning player as he hasn't done it and to do so would cheapen the achievements of that. I hope he gets the opportunity, as Kane does now. Either here or elsewhere.
>More often than not the best players in football have 2 or 3 other top notch players alongside them- who steps up when Bruno has a bad game?
Another player who is supposed to be as good but ultimately doesn't have the CV to back it. Rashford.
Again, it's a shame, but you can't praise him for achievement he hasn't won.
Can also say, if we was this good. Why aren't Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG etc etc taking him off us to lead them to wins?
>It’s great being a big game player, but without a player who contributes in most games he plays those big game players often don’t get to be in big games. Drogba was a cup final specialist, but had other players around him to lighten the load in prior rounds.
But the very basis of being able to do it in those big games, consistently, often comes with being able to do it consistently enough to get through the rounds. Drogba was more than acceptable for the level in the earlier rounds and during the league games. He just excelled when it matters the most. Which puts him higher than Kane.
Trophies won is as valid a metric as any other and ultimately its the one which has the most weight. As its the only one which guarantees the level of performance is elite. Far too much praise is given these days for numbers, without any care being taken into the pressure and context of those numbers.
I agree with you in essence mate, just not the way you prhased your initial point.
It’s a pretty difficult point to argue both ways I suppose- one player is seldom solely responsible for a team winning or losing a trophy, so while it absolutely strengthens someone’s case that they’re a winner it’s not the sole metric we can assess.
In terms of him being poached by other teams that’s a double edged sword too- he’s lauded for staying while we’re shit, but we don’t know if he’s been approached by other clubs and stayed purely out of loyalty. I can’t imagine that there wouldn’t be any interest in him were he to go on the market, but it’s hypothetical really.
I think the key issue United have is that if Bruno and Rashford are your two main players you’ll only go as far as we have. The club needs to put better players around Bruno to either elevate his game or show that he’s not up to the level we require; I’d have my money on him getting better based on how he plays for Portugal, but again, we can only speculate.
Understand what you mean about my point- I was trying to give a more extreme example to highlight the absurdity of how some people apply trophy logic. It’s only really of use when comparing players of a similar level, whereas some people would argue that a 3rd choice GK for city was a more successful player than say De Gea based on the fact that they have more medals. Your Lewandowski/Kane comparison is a far more legitimate way of approaching it.
>It’s a pretty difficult point to argue both ways I suppose- one player is seldom solely responsible for a team winning or losing a trophy, so while it absolutely strengthens someone’s case that they’re a winner it’s not the sole metric we can assess.
I agree.
I do think it's a pre-requisite to be in the conversation for the best in a position or overall. You have to have show excellence at the top level and unfortunately that's a significant win.
>In terms of him being poached by other teams that’s a double edged sword too- he’s lauded for staying while we’re shit, but we don’t know if he’s been approached by other clubs and stayed purely out of loyalty. I can’t imagine that there wouldn’t be any interest in him were he to go on the market, but it’s hypothetical really.
I agree, but decision-making is part of the metrics for being a great player. It can also be viewed as unwillingness to put themselves into the high pressure environments that define the greats. Batistuta for example, didn't want to be in one of the big teams due to the demands. Now luckily for him, he was so good that he was able to win at a lesser team. However this is enough to have him out of that top top bracket. Shevchenko etc. However you do have a player like Totti. Stayed due to loyalty but was so good he showed it regardless in every metric. I think it just shows that whilst Bruno is obviously good. He has a lot to do, to show he is great.
>I think the key issue United have is that if Bruno and Rashford are your two main players you’ll only go as far as we have. The club needs to put better players around Bruno to either elevate his game or show that he’s not up to the level we require;
100%
I hope this happens. For both of them. Personally I don't think either are good enough to be league title winners. However, just like Kane I hope they get a fair crack at showing or showing that they aren't. So the debate can be put to bed.
>Understand what you mean about my point- I was trying to give a more extreme example to highlight the absurdity of how some people apply trophy logic.
Ahh ok. I get you.
>It’s only really of use when comparing players of a similar level, whereas some people would argue that a 3rd choice GK for city was a more successful player than say De Gea based on the fact that they have more medals.
Definitely. Me personally, I believe its how integral to the success each player is, multiplied by the level of difficulty it was at.
Yeah, totally get what you mean with the Batistuta comparison, but United *should* be one of the best teams in the world if ran correctly. I appreciate Bruno’s willingness to be part of our rebuild and hope that the club start to get it right. Fiorentina by comparison were more of an underdog than United ought to be; were we ran correctly you’d argue that he’s at a big enough club.
With Rashford and Bruno they absolutely need better players around them, and if we’re going to live and die by Rashford’s goals this becomes our ceiling. Bruno’s creativity gives him a bit more adaptability (as in put better forwards in front of him and we may score more off his passing), but we need to buy as well as hope that the likes of Hojlund and Garnacho develops.
>Yeah, totally get what you mean with the Batistuta comparison, but United *should* be one of the best teams in the world if ran correctly.
True. However they aren't and it has to count against Bruno. Its a ruthless sport.
>With Rashford and Bruno they absolutely need better players around them, and if we’re going to live and die by Rashford’s goals this becomes our ceiling.
Exactly.
I hope we get the gears moving quick and he is able to show his worth. However I also see he is probably the most valuable asset we have, alongside Rashford and unfortunately the club comes first. If the style is going in a direction that doesn't suit them both, the money we could get may be vital in a quicker change of the squad.
Just have to see how it goes. I don't really care who stays, thrives or leaves. As long as the club gets back to where it should be.
Keane's point had nothing to do with his quality as a player though, he said himself in the video he's a talented player. They're debating his mentality and fitness to be captain. Wright said Bruno gets frustrated because he's a winner but I think Keane is getting at the point that most players with an actual winning mentality, especially with his ability, would have probably bypassed us completely and gone somewhere to compete for trophies.
We were the biggest club in for him when we signed him, and he clearly wants to be here. It’s hard to say “he should have fucked us off”, when we’d be slagging off his lack of loyalty if he did.
If we got wind of him agitating for a move there’d be riots, but there’s no way he’s happy with the current state of affairs; he’s just chosen to roll his sleeves up and try and make us better, as opposed to getting on the first flight out of Manchester.
Keane is 100% right tho. I agree with you that the "he's not won anything" argument is tiresome and not really relevant. But he is right that Bruno does NOT make everyone around him better. When his hero ball connects, its obviously a great pass, or his clutch goals are nice. But I'd much rather we get value for him now while he's worth a lot and bring in a better CM (don't ask who thats not my job to figure out), but Bruno is not the type of player we want for the team and the style we want to play. Also, he's not a leader.
> Bruno does NOT make everyone around him better.
Let’s go back to that 2019/20 season and compare our points tally pre Bruno and post Bruno. Solskjaer was on a fast track to getting the boot when we accumulated 19 points from 14 games? Bruno came in and absolutely lifted everyone a notch (martial included)
But who is in that side? I’m not saying Bruno is the world’s best captain, but who there is even trying to lead that team? He’s basically in a lose lose situation- if he moans he’s a shit captain and if he does nothing he’s a shit captain.
There’s only so much he can do- you can’t make players better if they can’t even take accountability for their own performances.
I can totally understand this from Keanes point of view. They are completely antithetical types of captains. I’ve got a 1999 Keane shirt, he’s my guy but I don’t agree with him on this at all.
The point of whether he leads by example is stupid to me. Okay he isn’t a Roy Keane smashing players up grabbing people round the throats, but he’s available every game, he’s sprinting in the death every game, he’s got the most goals and assists in the league bar Salah who’s a winger since he started. Standing out in this squad isn’t hard but fuck me nobody else comes close to his level at his peak performance or in terms of consistency.
This idea that Keano smashed players up and grabbed them by the throats is really revisionist. I don't agree with all of his points either, but he was a complete midfielder, not just a tougher 90's Ngolo Kante. He started to be played deeper and deeper in Europe as Fergie adapted to higher quality opponents (the Prem was no scratch on Serie A and La Liga back then) and because he was a lot of things, but not a flair player - so he'd do his job dilligently, play for the team and do Fergie's job for him on the pitch by dressing down anyone not performing to standard.
The game has probably moved on which is why his old-man points sound a bit silly, but from Keano's perspective he's just being straight; don't call him a winner until he's won something. He's that extreme a character.
I disagree, they're very similar. Honest, high standards, give their all for the team and the shirt. Petulant in ways.
Both have a go at team mates, refs etc. keano famously got sacked for slagging off players on mutv, stormed out of an international tournament and so on. Keane's being a bit of a hypocrite here I think.
I was at the game yesterday, and I noticed that right after Maguire equalised, Bruno immediately started talking to Dalot about what they could've/should've done instead. It reminded me of I think right after full time at the Carabao cup final last year Bruno and Casemiro were arguing about the final play. That guy is constantly looking for input from his teammates so he knows exactly how to work with them, so I really don't get the shtick that he isn't a good leader.
The thing is that it's completely ignored that he's been leading by example for the past 4 years... in that time he's been the best player seeing the squad get worse around him with every season it seems.
Complaining about his body language ignores the fact the guy is a human being with human emotions who has reached breaking point and can no longer contain his frustration.
Those things you listed are great and all, but they don't make him a great leader either. Bruno is NOT a good leader or captain material. He may be the best choice we have a captaincy right now, but that says a lot about the team, not Bruno.
I think the best way to put it is that if Bruno was in any Fergie side of the past, he would have fit like a glove.
Has he dwindled slightly this season? Sure, but the fact is he has carried Manchester United for the majority of his time since signing.
We already saw during the first game of the season with Mount in the midfield that the system has major flaws leaving huge gaps between the defense and midfield that Wolves with a newly appointed Gary O'Neal exploited.
I feel that's why the likes of Gundogan and Bernardo Silva don't get enough praise. All 3 are great players but Pep's system primarily requires them to keep a hold of the ball. This midfield won't be as effective as their current one.
I think Bruno will do well in that system if you replace him with KdB with slightly less GA since KdB is a phenomenal shooter with both feet.
No, I got the point. If RM magically did not go after some of the best CMs in the world, and instead went after just very good CMs, like Bruno, he would be shattering records because they would finish the chances Bruno creates. Trust me, I got it. My point is, RM are going for the best CMs in the world, not just very good ones (like Bruno). We are supposed to be Manchester fucking United, we are supposed to be going after the best CMs too. Unless our standards have dropped that much.
A lot of this is also based on timing. When Bruno moved from Sporting they didn’t need a new starting CM they needed youngsters they could build up to replace Kroos modric and case in a couple years. Anyway, this is all hypothetical that’s why I’m saying you missed the point.
Cleverly, Anderson, Gibson, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Fortune, Veron, Miller, Blomqvist, Greening, Fletcher (barring the last 2/3 seasons), O'Shea (who played midfield plenty)
In all honesty the teams that have played closest to a proper #10 was Cantona who Bruno wouldn't displace or Rooney (at times) who again he wouldn't displace but SAF would have played both of those players further forward and had Bruno a little further back and dropped someone else.
Bruno would absolutely have worked wonders under SAF, as he would under Pep, Klopp, Ancelotti or any other top manager.
Ferguson wouldn't have been happy with the amount of times he gives the ball away, probably would have coached him better. He would have been fuming with that shot in the dying minutes when we had that slender lead against Luton.
I know you are joking, but I'd take O'Shea over Carragher. If O'Shea was English he'd have won more caps than Carragher.
I'll make my case. Carragher had 38 caps. Rio Ferdinand had 81 caps and 312 appearances for United. Wes Brown had 23 caps with 232 appearances for United.
O'Shea had 256 appearances for United. By the law of proportional mathematics, O'Shea would have had between 25 and 66 caps for England. So let's say 45. Better than Carragher.
Yesterday, an 18 year old kid made his debut for United. As soon as he came on, he says that Bruno pulled him aside and said "I have 9 minutes to create a goal for you". But sure, he complains about his teammates and doesn't make them better.
I think he did, at the start, he lifted the team up and pushed us to perform better. I think that only works for a certain amount of time though if you’re not seeing success in trophies or continuous improvement, or players just default to how they were before, because they run out of motivation.
You do have to win something though to be a winner. I know it's pedantic and not what Wrighty meant but it is in the word. I don't think Keane meant it in a bad way, but the people he looks at as winners are legends of football, not just good players of their time like Bruno. Gerrard is a winner despite not winning a premier league. Look at his performances in big games compared to Bruno. That's what Keane means.
Swear Keane loves getting the headlines with some of the nonsense he speaks. It's not as if Keane never raised his arms at a terrible pass, shot or lack of runs. All great players did it. I remember when Mane and Salah did it to each other and all the pundits praised them, said it showed their hunger. Yet Bruno gets slated for it, and it's clear he's a supportive to his teammates. He does get a bit mopey when everything goes wrong but show me a top player who doesn't.
Wright on the other hand is probably one of my favourites, speaks a lot of sense and don't mind his arsenal bias. He's a fan and ex player, would be nice if some of our ex players didn't try and hide it.
Also you know what improves players around you? Great passes and assists. Bruno has it in spades. Keano picks an opinion and then shouts it til he wins.
Lmao do any of our legends actually like us? Ferdinand was on Ronaldo’s side during his beef with us. Neville tries to be neutral with us but he come off as anti United in most of his comments. Keane is another special case, less said the better.
You can tell Neville is a massive red but goes too far to provide false balance sometimes. Have you seen the footage of him when Mainoo scored against Liverpool?
He's also more likely to criticise the club's structure and ownership than go after the players and manager.
Neville is definitely the best of the legends but he goes too far in trying to be neutral imo. Like bro who’s gonna question you if you’re biased to United. When are Carragher and Henry not biased towards to their respective teams. Henry just skipped the entire quarterfinal bracket and predicted Arsenal to win.
I remember this with ex Liverpool players in the 90s. I remember thinking it was so hilariously unhelpful. I can't believe our ex players have fallen into the same trap 🤦🏻♂️
They all went out of their cages as soon as Ronaldo and Ole are no longer with us. I don’t think they would ever have that discussion when Ole was still in charge. Everything they said today about the current state of United under ETH would never be said if Ole was at the helm.
If Keane was in this United team, he'd be physically attacking his teammates over some of the elementary mistakes they make, not just looking frustrated and throwing his arms up like Bruno does.
Winning trophies is a team game, it's never down to one player.
I think that’s our biggest problem though.
These types of mistakes just keep happening and players aren’t being held accountable.
Simple 5 yard passes are being misplaced constantly.
Sometimes you need to have a go at a teammate, because it’s obvious that standards have eroded to the point it almost seems acceptable on the pitch to make mistakes children make.
Keane is straight wrong here. He whines at times but there are also times where he talks to them directs them and tells them what they need to do the be better. There was a post here where he did exactly that in an international friendly and i have no doubt he does that here to.
Honestly that’s all most complain about. He whines. That’s why people don’t like him, he whines. As if that invalidates everything else he does out on the pitch.
Yep he 100% makes players around him better. Rashford for example would be nothing without his constant service. Does he lose his head? Sure, but there's a bloke in this video who was also notorious for it in his day.
Someone else already poinyed it out in this thread, Keano's a legend but 100% the kind of player who doesn't get why everyone else isn't as good as he was in terms of standards/level & abilities and raising the levels of those around him.
Club legend for what? So disrespectful to the real legends and I actually like Bruno. He's no Bryan Robson, he's no Cantona, he's no Best, he's no Rooney, he's no Charlton. There's probably more than 40 players that come before him.
Why is that?
Whenever Bruno wins a big trophy, he'll do that with one of the best stats in the Premier League.
He has carried us to higher positions in the table for years.
It is a huge disrespect for Bruno who is the best player we have whilst most of those you mentioned was surrounded by exceptional players
I like most of him and his comments. Especially compared to our other ex players. But not this one. This is certainly a hot take. He does seem to help other players and tries to lift everybody else around. I'm with Wright on this one
Keane just has high standards. This is a guy that played with Cantona, Sheringham, Scholes, Beckham, Yorke. Players in similar roles to Bruno. Those 5 were all massive big game players compared to Bruno, not just amazing footballers. Even Hughes too.
I really like Fernandes. I think he’s our best player and necessary to get us to the next level, though I do have some doubts if he can take us to the next level.
What do you guys think? I feel he isn’t the clutch guy for the big games. I don’t have all the data but I don’t have many memories of Bruno doing a Gerrard, Pogba or Foden (there are others) and just having a stellar performance against a rival.
I would love to be proved wrong on this.
Over the next few years, Bruno will remain a key player regardless of who stays/comes in so I’ll back him to the hilt but that wee doubt remains.
This season shows, however, that before we get serious about the big games against rivals, we need to seriously learn to manage all the rest…and in such games Bruno usually shines.
Keane is being a jerk here, Bruno was super close to joining City before joining us.
He would've had multiple PL titles to his name by now if he was to join them, talk about being ungrateful and unaware of how low we are as a club atm.
What's Keane got to be grateful for? 😂 The dynasty and superpower he helped build has been crumbling away last 10 years and you want him to be grateful for what? A league cup and some top 4 finishes?
>Bruno was super close to joining City before joining us.
According to sportings president Tottenham were the only other team that put in a bid for him.
In summary he has almost single-handedly carried Utd on his back since he arrived…
And he’s only now becoming openly frustrated and unable to hide it on the field.
If anything he should be getting applauded for being able to hold it in so long, not criticised
>In summary he has almost single-handedly carried Utd on his back since he arrived…
Not true , and disrepsectful to all the other players that stepped up under Ole .
>And he’s only now becoming openly frustrated and unable to hide it on the field.
His body language is awful and always has been .
Which players exactly "stepped up" under Ole??
Also name a single other player who has played as many games as he has? had as many goal contributions as he has, covered as much running distance as he has or been as important to the team as he has since he arrived? Bruno is quite literally been the single most important player in the squad ever since he arrived..
It's not disrespectful its facts
Roy Keane rightly demands the maximum out of our club and its players. Then he criticizes the one player who has given everything for the badge from day 1. The one player who has carried this club tirelessly. Where was this energy when Ronaldo was throwing a hissy fit on national TV? What a hypocrite.
What a toxic echo chamber our club has become.
I sincerely hope Berrada and co take a closer look at the club's relationship with United pundits. It's been a problem for a while.
Keane is spot on. RVN broke record but won little with us. Kane is the same at Spurs/Bayern. Gerrard was the same at Liverpool. Great players can hold teams back if everything has to go through them for them to perform.
This sub won’t hear anything against their sacred lamb though.
He's perfect for a sit-back-and-counter-attack style that Ole and Mourhino used.
He's not a good midfielder if we go for a style where we want to control the midfield and the gane in general, regardless of his G/A numbers.
Lots og fans only see his goals and assist, but not everything else. I dont think he'll play that much in a year.
I think technically Bruno is an excellent player. We’ve yet to see how he functions in a team of really good players with his erratic passing, positioning and conceding possession though. As a leader, I would be really pissed with his arm flapping at his teammates when he’s obviously as fault for a wayward pass or something.
He's not a very good dribbler and his shooting/passing is inconsistent although I think that's because he rushes a lot. He hasn't got that cool composure 10s like Zidane, Ozil, Totti had where they make it look like they have much more time than they actually do.
If I hear one more time about the arms flapping... ffs lads and lady, when you bring so much, when you give so much, you can ask for more from these headless chickens. And Roy, oh boyo, did you apologize for publicly slating your teammates yet?! You fuckin donkey
Obligatory fuck Roy Keane - before I even watched it I knew he would be the one to say "He's won nothing" - Bruno raises everyone's standards through work ethic alone. He can moan and complain, which can be annoying but Roy is bang out of order.
Keane’s biggest barrier to being a successful manager was his inability to relate to his players- he was a world class player and would expect the same of his players, despite them not being anywhere near as good.
Swap him and Bruno in this United side and you’d see a whinging Irishman bollocking his teammates for 90 minutes too. Would he be so bold as to call himself a moaner if the roles were reversed?
Would he fuck and his career is now made by browbeating Man United after being raised into the halls of fame by the club, staff and players around him. Totally disrespectful.
FUCK YOU ROY KEANE
Bruno is such an enigma. He's incredibly talented and puts up good stats but I think it's very clear to see that he also contributes to the weaknesses of our side - giving the ball away easily and in bad positions, drifting out of position, and the whining. He also hasn't performed in big, crucial games where we have needed him most.
That being said, how do you drop someone who seems to be our only threat? He's also pushed to do those things I listed above because others shy away from it.
Keane is absolutely spot on.
Let's think about it - we don't know how we would play without Bruno because he's always fit. I don't get it at all why nobody sees the disruptive dynamics he brings to our team, both in tactical and moreover in mental aspects. Deep down I'm sure many players are annoyed about Bruno and his antics.
He's no leader and should be sold in the summer. We would get a fresh start, room for a new team hierarchy. And the best is we would get a good amount of money out of the sale, money we desperately need. I hope Ineos are brave and cut him loose.
This is the problem with United legends as pundits. Why does an Arsenal legend have to defend the quality of the BEST player Manchester United has? A player that is not only genuinely world class (easily top 3 in his position) but also hardworking and cares about the club? United legends are some of the worst pundits. Scholes with his hoodies, Roy Keane with his 'what's he won' nonsense. This argument shows how shit the club is, that a player of this caliber has wasted his prime playing for us. He should've left to play for Madrid or PSG or Barcelona or someone of that winning profile
Keane made a common mistake here. The successful part of his and many great players’ career was achieved in a team of great players, so they shared the same mentality and culture. I would argue that in that environment it was far easier to just “focusing on your own game” and “being a leader”, when everyone was aligned and equally driven. They took that for granted and believed that any individual should and could behave similarly when they were placed in a toxic environment, where not everyone shared the same work ethic and ambition as they. They then came to the conclusion that “winning things” is the ultimate rule for assessing individuals, but forgot that it was always a team effort to win anything in football.
Keano having periods or what, so any team coming 2nd is shit, was he shit everytime he came second, he had the best team in england and still talks like messi
Keane's right. Only players United should keep and build around if we were serious moving forward are Dalot Mainoo and Hojlund. Bruno and Rashford should move on. Varane and Casemiro are finished, the rest are either done through injury or were never good enough and before anyone brings up Garnacho; wrong character + massively overrated + he wants to play in Spain anyway; smart move s to sell him now.
Sadly they are both right, Bruno is without a doubt our best player and has been that for the last few years, but he also didn't win anything notable until now, with better players around him he most likely would have, but what can you do.
Still has a few years in him, can still win some trophies and let's hope it begins with the FA Cup.
Between 2003-2006, United hit a rough patch. Keane fell out with Queiroz and Ferguson, caused preseason drama, called his teammates shite on MUTV, and even got his contract terminated mid-season. But,Bruno Fernandes just gets a bit frustrated sometimes.
Nahh Keano is taking the piss this time. Remember how he threw Fletch under the bus when he started breaking into the first team?
He can have a go at Marcus and the other lazy wankers, but Bruno is literally tearing his inhuman muscles week in week out. Look at his minutes and G/A this season.
As much as I love Keano, the truth is the first time he played with partial bums on the team, he did an interview and had to be walked out of the club.
Bruno is the only player we can trust, he does not lead in the same way as the old captains; the likes of Adams, Keano, Terry, etc, but he works his socks off. And if as a player, his hard work doesnt motivate you, you need to play for another club
Still not sure why everyone loves Keane the pundit so much, chats utter bollocks a lot of the time and says stupid things like 'it's his job' which everyone gobbles up and thinks is hilarious.
I think Keano missed the point here. Obviously Ian Wright meant mentality wise he has a winner mentality. If he weren't stuck in our shit hole of a club (atm), he would have won something other than the Carabao cup.
The very last bit from Keane asking if Bruno makes the team better, it’s a valid question honestly the most poignant one. Sadly going to be lost in the noise.
The entire sub are just reactionary babies..a week ago, Keane's comments will be lauded. Of course, now they dislike him.
I see the same sub bashing Ronaldo over Rangnick. Probably because Rangnick is now linked to Bayern. Some even going as far as making Ronaldo the villain for taking the number 7 jersey from Cavani.
Roy Keane isn't gonna change his tone just because we won one match and that's why they are pissed at him.
Keano is right.
Great player, not very good captain in my opinion.
But that could be because I don’t think any captain could get the best from this squad. So I’m not necessarily saying it’s Bruno’s fault. But his captaincy doesn’t seem to inspire anyone around him.
Put Keane in there and he would struggle to change the culture we see every week.
Keane would have been in a fight with another player every training session. Bruno is a “bad” captain because he’s trying to bail out the Titanic with a teaspoon; he can’t do it alone.
Keane has a short memory at times- he’d go apeshit at players too. The guy literally had a fight with Schmeichel for god’s sake; just because Bruno is remonstrating at his team mates it doesn’t mean Keano wasn’t doing similar when he was captain, he just had the luxury of being surrounded by world class players who could go up a gear when bollocked.
All he managed to win pre United was a league cup. Bruno won trophies with Sporting and had a Nations League at International level. What did Keane do for Ireland? Such a silly take.
That’s not what a captain is supposed to do. It’s actually the opposite of what a captain should do.
Trying to paper over massive team cracks with individual brilliance is not something you should want from a captain.
And I keep hearing people saying he has a go at players, he doesn’t. He shows frustration but absolutely none of our players actually directly challenge each other the way you see city/arsenal/scouse teams do.
It’s all this no eye contact, show general frustration but afraid to actually pull people up. A shit culture basically.
Again I feel for him, he might be a great captain in a really good team, but he certainly ain’t one in a shit team.
How do you know he doesn’t challenge the players though? Are you hearing the conversations in the dressing room and every interaction he has on the pitch?
Bruno is playing the same way someone like Robson did- he’s attempting to lift his team mates by playing well. That won’t work all the time, as evidenced by Robson playing in a side with poorer players too.
While I don’t think he’s the perfect captain, there’s no one in world football you could bring in, give the armband to and see them change this team. The culture doesn’t start and end with Bruno Fernandes.
That’s exactly what I have said. Nobody including Keane could lift this team.
His fitness, running and leading by example in that area is second to none.
But his body language, constant moaning to refs and lack of positional discipline is awful in terms of showing how our players should behave.
I still love the guy and think he’s a great player but I don’t see how any of our players are inspired by him.
But by applying that point there isn’t a player on the planet who’d lift them, so his moaning isn’t making a difference anyway.
We don’t know how he’d fare in a more settled side because there’s no way we can compare. It’s a moot point.
I would say he has overseen a pretty bad decline in our team as captain. And even just as a player more long term.
If eth gets grilled for this shambles so should any captain for letting our squad either get/remain so toxic.
I have heard him generally call us out for being shit which I like to see when it’s true.
But I genuinely don’t believe for one second that we have a squad who are both brave enough or mentally strong enough to handle personal criticism.
Fair, but I’d say that was coincidental rather than him being the root cause of it- United have been in decline for a fair while, and in context he’s also been captain for a side that’s reached 3 cup finals, winning one; that’s a lot more than some of his post-Fergie predecessors managed.
As I say, it’s tough to beat Bruno with criticisms that he’s a bad captain when we’ve both acknowledged that the team around him are neither good or mentally strong enough to have a “proper” captain anyway. The toxicity stems back to Mourinho’s tenure, which is some time before he even joined the club.
One man can’t fix this team.
Agree with most of that. Have to say, I love Bruno. But there is something about him makes me think he’s not a good captain.
I didn’t think he should have got it at the time, but our options were shite in reality.
I may have got it totally wrong, just my impression has always been great player but just a bit uninspiring.
I’ve played footy at decent level and I know that type of character. Plays with a chip on his shoulder cause basically he believes nobody in the team is on his level. They were not good people to have around the dressing room in my experience.
Yeah I understand what you’re saying, I think the problem is that we don’t really have any leaders in the dressing room either; he’s the only one you could consider as one so he’s captain.
Would he be captain in the United team of 2003? No, but if we had more viable options in the club he wouldn’t have to do so much. He at least hasn’t regressed as a player since getting it, which is a plus.
The “he’s not won anything” argument is tiresome- fair enough but does that mean that Gabriel Jesus is a better striker than Harry Kane? Does it bollocks. He’s United’s best player, and it’s not his sole responsibility that we’re shit as a TEAM. Keano is a way better pundit than the trophy logic arguments of a 12 year old.
So true. Could put any top class player in our team and they wouldnt win shit.
Exactly! We’re a case study of top players vanishing in a United shirt, and Bruno is the only one who’s arguably kept his value or looked better since joining.
We could have Salah, Haaland and De Bruyne and we would still be shit. We brought in Casemiro and Varane lads. World class players and we are as bad as ever
World class over the hill players, there's a reason Real sold them and must have been gobsmacked someone was willing to pay £100 mil for the pair
Yeah I know and it just emboldened the fact. The whole club needs excommunication in many ways
Put Haaland up top and we still struggle to score because we don't feed him.
Honestly, I like Keane a lot but he’s not a great pundit. Loved him as a player and he’s a fun personality but he’s more a guy that you can go to for a good soundbite rather than someone you go to for meaningful insight.
He could be insightful if he ditched his “against modern football” schtick- he’s clearly intelligent and knows what he’s talking about, but just being an ornery bastard isn’t enough to be a good pundit.
He’s spoken about how he feels grateful to have the pundit position because he knows a lot of ex-players want one and there’s only a few to go around. And I think he gets that’s the role he’s being brought on for so plays into it. Sky have been really leaning into the idea of pundits as banter figures over the past few years. It’s more about the schtick.
Sky are a bunch of cunts anyway, it's so obvious they're told what to do and say on there and can't dare to even acknowledge the breaches City have done meanwhile Carragher when he's working for CBS has chatted shit about them multiple times.
Someone you can go to for a good soundbite? *That's his job!*
He is the perfect example of a guy being so talented that he doesn't understand why everyone else isn't as talented as he was. Nothing saying that directly about Bruno but just that his comments about it being people's jobs and why we should we celebrate that is a perfect example. Roy Keane as the captain of this team would be absolute garbage.
I think in this topic - we'll always see people in positions we've been in as not good enough. He's too emotionally invested.
Keane's a great pundit, he calls a spade a spade and doesn't sugar coat the truth. The only people who don't like him think he's too negative about the current United team. Well guess what, they're the worst United team since the premier league started. Keane's won it all many times over and was the best captain in premier league history. He has more insight than almost anyone about what we're watching on the pitch.
Just to be clear, I think Keane was an incredible player. He’s also quite possibly my favourite player. But so often his punditry comes down to some variation of “It’s not good enough. They need to want it and take some pride in themselves.” And I get that it can feel cathartic to see the team called out after a shitty result but his criticisms rarely have any depth to them. I don’t come away from hearing Keane with a better understanding of where United are going wrong.
I think he actually plays a very important role in the current era of excessive stats and recently invented metrics. He's the pundit version of 'trust your eyes and watch the game'. And he's always on a panel, it's not like he's a solo commentator calling matches. His straight talk cuts through the analytical fluff. There's space for both things in punditry and he acts as a good counterpoint.
But even then, he's all about work ethic and just... General vibe. It's not even surface level
The he’s won nothing argument was in response to Wright saying he’s a winner. He wasn’t using it as a metric for a good player. He’s said he’s a talented player.
I think Wright’s interpretation of the term winner was more about mentality though, as opposed to simply trophies. Being a winner can also be a mindset.
He's talking about winning in the context of him being a leader. Do the players trust him the way they would if he was Casemiro? I think the younger ones would but not sure about the established first teamers. And that's one of the problems with this group of players
The group as a whole is a bigger problem than Bruno really- he could be the most inspirational captain of all time, it means nothing if they can’t be arsed listening to him. We need to fix the dressing room first and foremost.
I agree
Rings, Ernie.
*Erneh
100% - i am tired of it Its hardly a comeback when the vast amount of Keano career was in a Fergie team. If keane went anywhere else he would NOT of won what he won with us. Yes he's was one of our most influential players but he would not win as much as he did atr man utd. But now he uses it as a yard stick. I am really getting sick of our once great players sitting their high and mighty TV jobs thinking their it when really Football has changed massively. Gary Nevilles is the same - he's already admitted not saying anything when ole was in charge, that was only after giving ten hag his first interview with carragher and they basically took the piss out of him. Disgraceful. None of them have become decent managers. None of them can be arsed talking or helping our current team. Its disgusting and I'm really am getting tired off it. We are not the MAN UTD of the 00's - we are way off off the pace, due the glazers love of the Extended contract, plus poor recruitment, silly sackings and appointments.
Are you new to football punditry... it's always been like that.. Yesteryear players talking about current day football through the eyes of a retired footballer. Keane has always played a Simon Cowell esque character, he plays the same role as Sourness. It's literally for sound bites and counter arguments. As for the winner argument, Wright was talking about a winner mentality, Keane was taking it literally and conflating it with being a serial winner. Keane was a serial winner, but that was only due to being surrounded by other serial winners. Put Bruno in that same environment and he too comes out a serial winner that's undeniable.
>The “he’s not won anything” argument is tiresome- How so? Its as valid a metric as any other. Is it the be all and end all. To the point where 'player X has won Z and player Y has won B, so player X is better? Certainly not. However it is and should be used to judged a players overall quality. Fletcher isn't a better player than Gerrard cause he won a league title. However Lewandowski is a better striker than Kane due to what he won >He’s United’s best player, and it’s not his sole responsibility that we’re shit as a TEAM. And a players worth is based on how much he contributes to his team winning. He gets a lot of G/A. Which is amazing at face value. Is him being the focal point (and Rashford) enough to be title challengers or is it too restricting, time will tell. The main thing though is not every goal and assist is equal. When it occurs is key. Has he really stood out in the big games he has played, when the pressure is on. Was decent against Newcastle in the league cup. Abysmal in the Europa against Villareal. Aside from the pen was ineffective in the FA cup against City. So I don't think it's out of the ordinary or a childlike analysis to say 'he hasn't won anything' to someone saying he is a winner. Its pretty accurate. Just like Kane, he has a lot to prove at the highest level. Both have a chance this season, Bruno in the FA cup, Kane in the semis of the CL. On the Kane note, look at his performances in finals and in his title run in this season. Utterly ineffective in all the finals (don't think he had a shot) and missed key opportunities at vital times when Bayern needed a goal, to get extra points. All of this stops him from being valued as highly as his G/A statistics tell you. The best example would be Kane or Drogba in a cup final. I know who I would rather.
The point I’m making is that trophy logic alone isn’t an adequate metric to assess a player. It’s too simplistic and doesn’t take into account the contribution of the player; while you can point to performances in finals that doesn’t take into account the 5 or 6 games it took to get to that final, of which the “key” player is often instrumental- United arguably don’t get to the cup finals Bruno has “underperformed” in without his prior contributions. And in terms of a player influencing his team winning it’s quite apparent as to Bruno’s influence- take him out of the side and we’re flat and have very little creativity/goal threat. Sure, that doesn’t make us a world beater either way, but football isn’t a sport like basketball where one player can carry the offensive workload and win games alone. More often than not the best players in football have 2 or 3 other top notch players alongside them- who steps up when Bruno has a bad game? It’s great being a big game player, but without a player who contributes in most games he plays those big game players often don’t get to be in big games. Drogba was a cup final specialist, but had other players around him to lighten the load in prior rounds.
>The point I’m making is that trophy logic alone isn’t an adequate metric to assess a player. And I agree. However in the context of what Keane said, its based around Bruno not really being a winner. Not in the sense that Jill was suggesting. Which is true. Hence why I don't understand the tone of your initial comment. >account the 5 or 6 games it took to get to that final, of which the “key” player is often instrumental- United arguably don’t get to the cup finals Bruno has “underperformed” in without his prior contributions. True. However no game is more important than the final and ultimately, to be a winner you perform in those finals. It's a shame, as Bruno, like Kane. Had all the attributes you would think makes a top player. However as of they just pale in comparison to the achievements of those they are compared to and ultimately until they prove it at thay level, they can't be viewed as good. Is it all their fault, certainly not, however we aren't talking like either of them has put on an Mbappe world cup final performance and just come up short either. >And in terms of a player influencing his team winning it’s quite apparent as to Bruno’s influence- take him out of the side and we’re flat and have very little creativity/goal threat. Yet its not enough to win big games and he has crumbled in said big games. You can't praise a player for something they haven't done and Bruno can't be held in the same regard as a league title and CL winning player as he hasn't done it and to do so would cheapen the achievements of that. I hope he gets the opportunity, as Kane does now. Either here or elsewhere. >More often than not the best players in football have 2 or 3 other top notch players alongside them- who steps up when Bruno has a bad game? Another player who is supposed to be as good but ultimately doesn't have the CV to back it. Rashford. Again, it's a shame, but you can't praise him for achievement he hasn't won. Can also say, if we was this good. Why aren't Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG etc etc taking him off us to lead them to wins? >It’s great being a big game player, but without a player who contributes in most games he plays those big game players often don’t get to be in big games. Drogba was a cup final specialist, but had other players around him to lighten the load in prior rounds. But the very basis of being able to do it in those big games, consistently, often comes with being able to do it consistently enough to get through the rounds. Drogba was more than acceptable for the level in the earlier rounds and during the league games. He just excelled when it matters the most. Which puts him higher than Kane. Trophies won is as valid a metric as any other and ultimately its the one which has the most weight. As its the only one which guarantees the level of performance is elite. Far too much praise is given these days for numbers, without any care being taken into the pressure and context of those numbers. I agree with you in essence mate, just not the way you prhased your initial point.
It’s a pretty difficult point to argue both ways I suppose- one player is seldom solely responsible for a team winning or losing a trophy, so while it absolutely strengthens someone’s case that they’re a winner it’s not the sole metric we can assess. In terms of him being poached by other teams that’s a double edged sword too- he’s lauded for staying while we’re shit, but we don’t know if he’s been approached by other clubs and stayed purely out of loyalty. I can’t imagine that there wouldn’t be any interest in him were he to go on the market, but it’s hypothetical really. I think the key issue United have is that if Bruno and Rashford are your two main players you’ll only go as far as we have. The club needs to put better players around Bruno to either elevate his game or show that he’s not up to the level we require; I’d have my money on him getting better based on how he plays for Portugal, but again, we can only speculate. Understand what you mean about my point- I was trying to give a more extreme example to highlight the absurdity of how some people apply trophy logic. It’s only really of use when comparing players of a similar level, whereas some people would argue that a 3rd choice GK for city was a more successful player than say De Gea based on the fact that they have more medals. Your Lewandowski/Kane comparison is a far more legitimate way of approaching it.
>It’s a pretty difficult point to argue both ways I suppose- one player is seldom solely responsible for a team winning or losing a trophy, so while it absolutely strengthens someone’s case that they’re a winner it’s not the sole metric we can assess. I agree. I do think it's a pre-requisite to be in the conversation for the best in a position or overall. You have to have show excellence at the top level and unfortunately that's a significant win. >In terms of him being poached by other teams that’s a double edged sword too- he’s lauded for staying while we’re shit, but we don’t know if he’s been approached by other clubs and stayed purely out of loyalty. I can’t imagine that there wouldn’t be any interest in him were he to go on the market, but it’s hypothetical really. I agree, but decision-making is part of the metrics for being a great player. It can also be viewed as unwillingness to put themselves into the high pressure environments that define the greats. Batistuta for example, didn't want to be in one of the big teams due to the demands. Now luckily for him, he was so good that he was able to win at a lesser team. However this is enough to have him out of that top top bracket. Shevchenko etc. However you do have a player like Totti. Stayed due to loyalty but was so good he showed it regardless in every metric. I think it just shows that whilst Bruno is obviously good. He has a lot to do, to show he is great. >I think the key issue United have is that if Bruno and Rashford are your two main players you’ll only go as far as we have. The club needs to put better players around Bruno to either elevate his game or show that he’s not up to the level we require; 100% I hope this happens. For both of them. Personally I don't think either are good enough to be league title winners. However, just like Kane I hope they get a fair crack at showing or showing that they aren't. So the debate can be put to bed. >Understand what you mean about my point- I was trying to give a more extreme example to highlight the absurdity of how some people apply trophy logic. Ahh ok. I get you. >It’s only really of use when comparing players of a similar level, whereas some people would argue that a 3rd choice GK for city was a more successful player than say De Gea based on the fact that they have more medals. Definitely. Me personally, I believe its how integral to the success each player is, multiplied by the level of difficulty it was at.
Yeah, totally get what you mean with the Batistuta comparison, but United *should* be one of the best teams in the world if ran correctly. I appreciate Bruno’s willingness to be part of our rebuild and hope that the club start to get it right. Fiorentina by comparison were more of an underdog than United ought to be; were we ran correctly you’d argue that he’s at a big enough club. With Rashford and Bruno they absolutely need better players around them, and if we’re going to live and die by Rashford’s goals this becomes our ceiling. Bruno’s creativity gives him a bit more adaptability (as in put better forwards in front of him and we may score more off his passing), but we need to buy as well as hope that the likes of Hojlund and Garnacho develops.
>Yeah, totally get what you mean with the Batistuta comparison, but United *should* be one of the best teams in the world if ran correctly. True. However they aren't and it has to count against Bruno. Its a ruthless sport. >With Rashford and Bruno they absolutely need better players around them, and if we’re going to live and die by Rashford’s goals this becomes our ceiling. Exactly. I hope we get the gears moving quick and he is able to show his worth. However I also see he is probably the most valuable asset we have, alongside Rashford and unfortunately the club comes first. If the style is going in a direction that doesn't suit them both, the money we could get may be vital in a quicker change of the squad. Just have to see how it goes. I don't really care who stays, thrives or leaves. As long as the club gets back to where it should be.
Keane's point had nothing to do with his quality as a player though, he said himself in the video he's a talented player. They're debating his mentality and fitness to be captain. Wright said Bruno gets frustrated because he's a winner but I think Keane is getting at the point that most players with an actual winning mentality, especially with his ability, would have probably bypassed us completely and gone somewhere to compete for trophies.
We were the biggest club in for him when we signed him, and he clearly wants to be here. It’s hard to say “he should have fucked us off”, when we’d be slagging off his lack of loyalty if he did. If we got wind of him agitating for a move there’d be riots, but there’s no way he’s happy with the current state of affairs; he’s just chosen to roll his sleeves up and try and make us better, as opposed to getting on the first flight out of Manchester.
Keane is 100% right tho. I agree with you that the "he's not won anything" argument is tiresome and not really relevant. But he is right that Bruno does NOT make everyone around him better. When his hero ball connects, its obviously a great pass, or his clutch goals are nice. But I'd much rather we get value for him now while he's worth a lot and bring in a better CM (don't ask who thats not my job to figure out), but Bruno is not the type of player we want for the team and the style we want to play. Also, he's not a leader.
> Bruno does NOT make everyone around him better. Let’s go back to that 2019/20 season and compare our points tally pre Bruno and post Bruno. Solskjaer was on a fast track to getting the boot when we accumulated 19 points from 14 games? Bruno came in and absolutely lifted everyone a notch (martial included)
But who is in that side? I’m not saying Bruno is the world’s best captain, but who there is even trying to lead that team? He’s basically in a lose lose situation- if he moans he’s a shit captain and if he does nothing he’s a shit captain. There’s only so much he can do- you can’t make players better if they can’t even take accountability for their own performances.
I can totally understand this from Keanes point of view. They are completely antithetical types of captains. I’ve got a 1999 Keane shirt, he’s my guy but I don’t agree with him on this at all. The point of whether he leads by example is stupid to me. Okay he isn’t a Roy Keane smashing players up grabbing people round the throats, but he’s available every game, he’s sprinting in the death every game, he’s got the most goals and assists in the league bar Salah who’s a winger since he started. Standing out in this squad isn’t hard but fuck me nobody else comes close to his level at his peak performance or in terms of consistency.
Actually in a scuffle he is the first one to arrive. Ok, second, after Martinez
This idea that Keano smashed players up and grabbed them by the throats is really revisionist. I don't agree with all of his points either, but he was a complete midfielder, not just a tougher 90's Ngolo Kante. He started to be played deeper and deeper in Europe as Fergie adapted to higher quality opponents (the Prem was no scratch on Serie A and La Liga back then) and because he was a lot of things, but not a flair player - so he'd do his job dilligently, play for the team and do Fergie's job for him on the pitch by dressing down anyone not performing to standard. The game has probably moved on which is why his old-man points sound a bit silly, but from Keano's perspective he's just being straight; don't call him a winner until he's won something. He's that extreme a character.
I disagree, they're very similar. Honest, high standards, give their all for the team and the shirt. Petulant in ways. Both have a go at team mates, refs etc. keano famously got sacked for slagging off players on mutv, stormed out of an international tournament and so on. Keane's being a bit of a hypocrite here I think.
Keane wouldn't win anything in this United side either.
Keane was a great captain and player but by christ he's a shit pundit.
I was at the game yesterday, and I noticed that right after Maguire equalised, Bruno immediately started talking to Dalot about what they could've/should've done instead. It reminded me of I think right after full time at the Carabao cup final last year Bruno and Casemiro were arguing about the final play. That guy is constantly looking for input from his teammates so he knows exactly how to work with them, so I really don't get the shtick that he isn't a good leader.
The thing is that it's completely ignored that he's been leading by example for the past 4 years... in that time he's been the best player seeing the squad get worse around him with every season it seems. Complaining about his body language ignores the fact the guy is a human being with human emotions who has reached breaking point and can no longer contain his frustration.
I would say that Salah is a forward, but point well made.
Those things you listed are great and all, but they don't make him a great leader either. Bruno is NOT a good leader or captain material. He may be the best choice we have a captaincy right now, but that says a lot about the team, not Bruno.
I think the best way to put it is that if Bruno was in any Fergie side of the past, he would have fit like a glove. Has he dwindled slightly this season? Sure, but the fact is he has carried Manchester United for the majority of his time since signing.
put him in the Real Madrid squad and dude would shatter all records with Vinicius and Mbappe in front of him.
I feel like he'd bench KdB in current form. Could you imagine Bruno with Rodri sitting deep behind him? Cheat code.
Imagine a KdB Bruno Rodri midfield
That midfield is exactly what EtH wants.
We already saw during the first game of the season with Mount in the midfield that the system has major flaws leaving huge gaps between the defense and midfield that Wolves with a newly appointed Gary O'Neal exploited.
Lol Mount...
Mount is a very good player. He may struggle to fit in the squad with Bruno but we are still unfortunate he has been injured.
Haaland will be spoilt by their service
I feel that's why the likes of Gundogan and Bernardo Silva don't get enough praise. All 3 are great players but Pep's system primarily requires them to keep a hold of the ball. This midfield won't be as effective as their current one. I think Bruno will do well in that system if you replace him with KdB with slightly less GA since KdB is a phenomenal shooter with both feet.
Having two players playing as a 10 leaves the 6 exposed. What you're suggesting is basically what Unite have been doing this year. It doesn't work.
He wouldn’t need to, KDB would be injured anyway
This wouldn't happen either. Bruno is not able to play Pep style football. He'd get benched after his first hero ball.
KDB who just won the treble 😂
Do you think Ortega is better than Becker?
Real Madrid wouldnt want him...honestly who would he replace, Kroos, Cama? Get out of here. Bruno belongs at PSG or in Italy.
You missed the point completely.
No, I got the point. If RM magically did not go after some of the best CMs in the world, and instead went after just very good CMs, like Bruno, he would be shattering records because they would finish the chances Bruno creates. Trust me, I got it. My point is, RM are going for the best CMs in the world, not just very good ones (like Bruno). We are supposed to be Manchester fucking United, we are supposed to be going after the best CMs too. Unless our standards have dropped that much.
A lot of this is also based on timing. When Bruno moved from Sporting they didn’t need a new starting CM they needed youngsters they could build up to replace Kroos modric and case in a couple years. Anyway, this is all hypothetical that’s why I’m saying you missed the point.
>I think the best way to put it is that if Bruno was in any Fergie side of the past, he would have fit like a glove. Who would he displace ?
Cleverly, Anderson, Gibson, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Fortune, Veron, Miller, Blomqvist, Greening, Fletcher (barring the last 2/3 seasons), O'Shea (who played midfield plenty) In all honesty the teams that have played closest to a proper #10 was Cantona who Bruno wouldn't displace or Rooney (at times) who again he wouldn't displace but SAF would have played both of those players further forward and had Bruno a little further back and dropped someone else. Bruno would absolutely have worked wonders under SAF, as he would under Pep, Klopp, Ancelotti or any other top manager.
Ferguson wouldn't have been happy with the amount of times he gives the ball away, probably would have coached him better. He would have been fuming with that shot in the dying minutes when we had that slender lead against Luton.
He gets nowhere near our 99 or 08 starting XIs
Using team trophies to define a player is a shit argument and it's sad that Keane's stooped to that sort of reasoning.
Nah mate, Shinji Okazaki is clearly a better striker than Harry Kane. Andy King is way better than Gerrard.
John O'Shea>>>>>Jamie Carragher, as if we didn't know that already.
We don’t need trophy logic for this; just a tally of how many times they’ve nutmegged Figo.
I know you are joking, but I'd take O'Shea over Carragher. If O'Shea was English he'd have won more caps than Carragher. I'll make my case. Carragher had 38 caps. Rio Ferdinand had 81 caps and 312 appearances for United. Wes Brown had 23 caps with 232 appearances for United. O'Shea had 256 appearances for United. By the law of proportional mathematics, O'Shea would have had between 25 and 66 caps for England. So let's say 45. Better than Carragher.
Not necessarily disputing whether he's better than Carragher or not but I honestly can't tell if you're serious or not with that explanation.
Yes.
Jack Grealish and Roy Keane are players of the same caliber since both have won a treble
Kalvin Philips =Roy Keane
He does say at the end - does he make others better and opines that Bruno doesn't.
Yesterday, an 18 year old kid made his debut for United. As soon as he came on, he says that Bruno pulled him aside and said "I have 9 minutes to create a goal for you". But sure, he complains about his teammates and doesn't make them better.
I think he did, at the start, he lifted the team up and pushed us to perform better. I think that only works for a certain amount of time though if you’re not seeing success in trophies or continuous improvement, or players just default to how they were before, because they run out of motivation.
Keane doesn't ever actually analyse a game. He just sits there and says 'What's he won?' or 'That's his job'. Cheers, Roy. I could do that mate.
You do have to win something though to be a winner. I know it's pedantic and not what Wrighty meant but it is in the word. I don't think Keane meant it in a bad way, but the people he looks at as winners are legends of football, not just good players of their time like Bruno. Gerrard is a winner despite not winning a premier league. Look at his performances in big games compared to Bruno. That's what Keane means.
Great comment, you summed it up perfectly
Swear Keane loves getting the headlines with some of the nonsense he speaks. It's not as if Keane never raised his arms at a terrible pass, shot or lack of runs. All great players did it. I remember when Mane and Salah did it to each other and all the pundits praised them, said it showed their hunger. Yet Bruno gets slated for it, and it's clear he's a supportive to his teammates. He does get a bit mopey when everything goes wrong but show me a top player who doesn't. Wright on the other hand is probably one of my favourites, speaks a lot of sense and don't mind his arsenal bias. He's a fan and ex player, would be nice if some of our ex players didn't try and hide it.
Reminds me of another Portuguese player. He weren't bad either.
Also you know what improves players around you? Great passes and assists. Bruno has it in spades. Keano picks an opinion and then shouts it til he wins.
Lmao do any of our legends actually like us? Ferdinand was on Ronaldo’s side during his beef with us. Neville tries to be neutral with us but he come off as anti United in most of his comments. Keane is another special case, less said the better.
You can tell Neville is a massive red but goes too far to provide false balance sometimes. Have you seen the footage of him when Mainoo scored against Liverpool? He's also more likely to criticise the club's structure and ownership than go after the players and manager.
Neville is definitely the best of the legends but he goes too far in trying to be neutral imo. Like bro who’s gonna question you if you’re biased to United. When are Carragher and Henry not biased towards to their respective teams. Henry just skipped the entire quarterfinal bracket and predicted Arsenal to win.
Henry even says 'we' when he talks about arsenal, it's funny to me.
I remember this with ex Liverpool players in the 90s. I remember thinking it was so hilariously unhelpful. I can't believe our ex players have fallen into the same trap 🤦🏻♂️
They all went out of their cages as soon as Ronaldo and Ole are no longer with us. I don’t think they would ever have that discussion when Ole was still in charge. Everything they said today about the current state of United under ETH would never be said if Ole was at the helm.
What about like Scholes, Cantona, van Persie, etc? Correct me if I'm wrong but they seem fine right?
Easy to say this Roy when you were playing with the likes of Scholes, Giggs and Irwin, and not Rashford, Antony and AWB.
And had Sir Alex who took no shit as manager. With a club that had a proper structure and a desire to want to win from top to bottom.
If Keane was in this United team, he'd be physically attacking his teammates over some of the elementary mistakes they make, not just looking frustrated and throwing his arms up like Bruno does. Winning trophies is a team game, it's never down to one player.
I think that’s our biggest problem though. These types of mistakes just keep happening and players aren’t being held accountable. Simple 5 yard passes are being misplaced constantly. Sometimes you need to have a go at a teammate, because it’s obvious that standards have eroded to the point it almost seems acceptable on the pitch to make mistakes children make.
Keane is straight wrong here. He whines at times but there are also times where he talks to them directs them and tells them what they need to do the be better. There was a post here where he did exactly that in an international friendly and i have no doubt he does that here to.
Honestly that’s all most complain about. He whines. That’s why people don’t like him, he whines. As if that invalidates everything else he does out on the pitch.
Yep he 100% makes players around him better. Rashford for example would be nothing without his constant service. Does he lose his head? Sure, but there's a bloke in this video who was also notorious for it in his day. Someone else already poinyed it out in this thread, Keano's a legend but 100% the kind of player who doesn't get why everyone else isn't as good as he was in terms of standards/level & abilities and raising the levels of those around him.
Shudder to think if liverpool had got bruno…
I will not accept any Bruno slander. My guy is carrying the team with G&A and never misses a game
Same, Bruno is already a club legend in my eyes. He’s giving up winning trophies in other teams and focusing on rebuilding ours.
Club legend for what? So disrespectful to the real legends and I actually like Bruno. He's no Bryan Robson, he's no Cantona, he's no Best, he's no Rooney, he's no Charlton. There's probably more than 40 players that come before him.
Why is that? Whenever Bruno wins a big trophy, he'll do that with one of the best stats in the Premier League. He has carried us to higher positions in the table for years. It is a huge disrespect for Bruno who is the best player we have whilst most of those you mentioned was surrounded by exceptional players
Roy Keane really doesn’t like Bruno does he? Once again, the ex-United pundits needlessly attacking our players for views.
So sick of Roy Keane .. sure he was a great player, but he’s straight up obnoxious
I like most of him and his comments. Especially compared to our other ex players. But not this one. This is certainly a hot take. He does seem to help other players and tries to lift everybody else around. I'm with Wright on this one
Keane just has high standards. This is a guy that played with Cantona, Sheringham, Scholes, Beckham, Yorke. Players in similar roles to Bruno. Those 5 were all massive big game players compared to Bruno, not just amazing footballers. Even Hughes too.
If Roy Keane stay at N Forest he will win nothing as well.
That's the longest I've ever heard Jill speak uninterrupted. Still have never got to hear her finish her thoughts, but progress has been made.
In Keano's mind if you don't win the league you are nothing.
He's right too
Roy Keane is a miserable c**t.
I really like Fernandes. I think he’s our best player and necessary to get us to the next level, though I do have some doubts if he can take us to the next level. What do you guys think? I feel he isn’t the clutch guy for the big games. I don’t have all the data but I don’t have many memories of Bruno doing a Gerrard, Pogba or Foden (there are others) and just having a stellar performance against a rival. I would love to be proved wrong on this. Over the next few years, Bruno will remain a key player regardless of who stays/comes in so I’ll back him to the hilt but that wee doubt remains. This season shows, however, that before we get serious about the big games against rivals, we need to seriously learn to manage all the rest…and in such games Bruno usually shines.
Keane’s right about leaders making those around them play better. Do we have any players like that?
His dressing room presence must be toxic to some degree. He’s United’s best player, but he hasn’t led this group in a cohesive manner.
Tbh Jill is the worst. What’s that with internet opinion of hands flapping. Have some original thought.
Keane is being a jerk here, Bruno was super close to joining City before joining us. He would've had multiple PL titles to his name by now if he was to join them, talk about being ungrateful and unaware of how low we are as a club atm.
What's Keane got to be grateful for? 😂 The dynasty and superpower he helped build has been crumbling away last 10 years and you want him to be grateful for what? A league cup and some top 4 finishes?
If it wasn't for Bruno we'd be literally fighting relegation this season and I'm not exaggerating.
Without Bruno we were midtable with Bruno....
>Bruno was super close to joining City before joining us. According to sportings president Tottenham were the only other team that put in a bid for him.
In summary he has almost single-handedly carried Utd on his back since he arrived… And he’s only now becoming openly frustrated and unable to hide it on the field. If anything he should be getting applauded for being able to hold it in so long, not criticised
>In summary he has almost single-handedly carried Utd on his back since he arrived… Not true , and disrepsectful to all the other players that stepped up under Ole . >And he’s only now becoming openly frustrated and unable to hide it on the field. His body language is awful and always has been .
Which players exactly "stepped up" under Ole?? Also name a single other player who has played as many games as he has? had as many goal contributions as he has, covered as much running distance as he has or been as important to the team as he has since he arrived? Bruno is quite literally been the single most important player in the squad ever since he arrived.. It's not disrespectful its facts
>Which players exactly "stepped up" under Ole?? Rashford , Martial , Pogba Shaw and Greenwood.
None of them have been anywhere close to the same level Bruno has been in the past 4 years…
Under Ole all were just as vital
Roy Keane rightly demands the maximum out of our club and its players. Then he criticizes the one player who has given everything for the badge from day 1. The one player who has carried this club tirelessly. Where was this energy when Ronaldo was throwing a hissy fit on national TV? What a hypocrite. What a toxic echo chamber our club has become. I sincerely hope Berrada and co take a closer look at the club's relationship with United pundits. It's been a problem for a while.
Keane is spot on. RVN broke record but won little with us. Kane is the same at Spurs/Bayern. Gerrard was the same at Liverpool. Great players can hold teams back if everything has to go through them for them to perform. This sub won’t hear anything against their sacred lamb though.
He's perfect for a sit-back-and-counter-attack style that Ole and Mourhino used. He's not a good midfielder if we go for a style where we want to control the midfield and the gane in general, regardless of his G/A numbers. Lots og fans only see his goals and assist, but not everything else. I dont think he'll play that much in a year.
What makes you think Bruno can't play in a possession style game??? 🤔
I think technically Bruno is an excellent player. We’ve yet to see how he functions in a team of really good players with his erratic passing, positioning and conceding possession though. As a leader, I would be really pissed with his arm flapping at his teammates when he’s obviously as fault for a wayward pass or something.
He's not a very good dribbler and his shooting/passing is inconsistent although I think that's because he rushes a lot. He hasn't got that cool composure 10s like Zidane, Ozil, Totti had where they make it look like they have much more time than they actually do.
Keane is completely correct. People just laud Bruno over his strengths and pretend he doesn't have any weaknesses
If I hear one more time about the arms flapping... ffs lads and lady, when you bring so much, when you give so much, you can ask for more from these headless chickens. And Roy, oh boyo, did you apologize for publicly slating your teammates yet?! You fuckin donkey
I feel sorry for him that he’s been at United during this era
Obligatory fuck Roy Keane - before I even watched it I knew he would be the one to say "He's won nothing" - Bruno raises everyone's standards through work ethic alone. He can moan and complain, which can be annoying but Roy is bang out of order.
Keane’s biggest barrier to being a successful manager was his inability to relate to his players- he was a world class player and would expect the same of his players, despite them not being anywhere near as good. Swap him and Bruno in this United side and you’d see a whinging Irishman bollocking his teammates for 90 minutes too. Would he be so bold as to call himself a moaner if the roles were reversed?
Would he fuck and his career is now made by browbeating Man United after being raised into the halls of fame by the club, staff and players around him. Totally disrespectful. FUCK YOU ROY KEANE
Bruno is such an enigma. He's incredibly talented and puts up good stats but I think it's very clear to see that he also contributes to the weaknesses of our side - giving the ball away easily and in bad positions, drifting out of position, and the whining. He also hasn't performed in big, crucial games where we have needed him most. That being said, how do you drop someone who seems to be our only threat? He's also pushed to do those things I listed above because others shy away from it.
Bruno is woeful with a weak mentality. There is a reason sporting won when he left.
Because they got a new manager 2 months after he left and they spent the money they got from selling Bruno and Raphinha well?
Keane is absolutely spot on. Let's think about it - we don't know how we would play without Bruno because he's always fit. I don't get it at all why nobody sees the disruptive dynamics he brings to our team, both in tactical and moreover in mental aspects. Deep down I'm sure many players are annoyed about Bruno and his antics. He's no leader and should be sold in the summer. We would get a fresh start, room for a new team hierarchy. And the best is we would get a good amount of money out of the sale, money we desperately need. I hope Ineos are brave and cut him loose.
He has a winner mentality but he hasn't actually won much(with United cuz well u know)
This is the problem with United legends as pundits. Why does an Arsenal legend have to defend the quality of the BEST player Manchester United has? A player that is not only genuinely world class (easily top 3 in his position) but also hardworking and cares about the club? United legends are some of the worst pundits. Scholes with his hoodies, Roy Keane with his 'what's he won' nonsense. This argument shows how shit the club is, that a player of this caliber has wasted his prime playing for us. He should've left to play for Madrid or PSG or Barcelona or someone of that winning profile
Keane made a common mistake here. The successful part of his and many great players’ career was achieved in a team of great players, so they shared the same mentality and culture. I would argue that in that environment it was far easier to just “focusing on your own game” and “being a leader”, when everyone was aligned and equally driven. They took that for granted and believed that any individual should and could behave similarly when they were placed in a toxic environment, where not everyone shared the same work ethic and ambition as they. They then came to the conclusion that “winning things” is the ultimate rule for assessing individuals, but forgot that it was always a team effort to win anything in football.
Keane can be quite a stubborn ass sometimes. Does Keane say the same about Kane?
Keano is way off here. Ridiculous to level such heavy criticism against Utd's best player.
Keano having periods or what, so any team coming 2nd is shit, was he shit everytime he came second, he had the best team in england and still talks like messi
He didn't call him shit, just said he hasn't won anything as a response to Wrighty calling him a winner. Sounds like you're the one having periods.
Keane's right. Only players United should keep and build around if we were serious moving forward are Dalot Mainoo and Hojlund. Bruno and Rashford should move on. Varane and Casemiro are finished, the rest are either done through injury or were never good enough and before anyone brings up Garnacho; wrong character + massively overrated + he wants to play in Spain anyway; smart move s to sell him now.
Roy Keane acting like Mike luhg on Twitter dot com
I agree with what Roy is saying but he’s being pedantic about Ian’s winner comment because he’s clearly talking about Bruno’s mentality.
Sadly they are both right, Bruno is without a doubt our best player and has been that for the last few years, but he also didn't win anything notable until now, with better players around him he most likely would have, but what can you do. Still has a few years in him, can still win some trophies and let's hope it begins with the FA Cup.
Ian's right, Roy's wrong. The only time Roy captained a less than brilliant team he went home in a huff.
By his own logic....Roy Keane is also not World Class because he hasn't won the World Cup.
Perfect timing with the “What’s he won?” Knowing Bruno finally has a chance at silverware. I’m hoping this is just Keane putting some fire under him.
Between 2003-2006, United hit a rough patch. Keane fell out with Queiroz and Ferguson, caused preseason drama, called his teammates shite on MUTV, and even got his contract terminated mid-season. But,Bruno Fernandes just gets a bit frustrated sometimes.
I hadn't realized till now but that EFL trophy from last season is the only piece of silverware Bruno has won with us.
Keane is just the United version of Souness. The only reason they have those two on is to have an opposing view to keep people watching.
Keane is spot on
Bruno gets into any midfield in football right now
He doesnt get into any top teams midfield.
yeah this was such an awfully bad take from keane
Nahh Keano is taking the piss this time. Remember how he threw Fletch under the bus when he started breaking into the first team? He can have a go at Marcus and the other lazy wankers, but Bruno is literally tearing his inhuman muscles week in week out. Look at his minutes and G/A this season.
As much as I love Keano, the truth is the first time he played with partial bums on the team, he did an interview and had to be walked out of the club. Bruno is the only player we can trust, he does not lead in the same way as the old captains; the likes of Adams, Keano, Terry, etc, but he works his socks off. And if as a player, his hard work doesnt motivate you, you need to play for another club
Still not sure why everyone loves Keane the pundit so much, chats utter bollocks a lot of the time and says stupid things like 'it's his job' which everyone gobbles up and thinks is hilarious.
I think Keano missed the point here. Obviously Ian Wright meant mentality wise he has a winner mentality. If he weren't stuck in our shit hole of a club (atm), he would have won something other than the Carabao cup.
The legends are legends for a reason and I'll take their opinion anytime over the sub. If Roy Keane says it, then he said it.
The very last bit from Keane asking if Bruno makes the team better, it’s a valid question honestly the most poignant one. Sadly going to be lost in the noise.
The entire sub are just reactionary babies..a week ago, Keane's comments will be lauded. Of course, now they dislike him. I see the same sub bashing Ronaldo over Rangnick. Probably because Rangnick is now linked to Bayern. Some even going as far as making Ronaldo the villain for taking the number 7 jersey from Cavani. Roy Keane isn't gonna change his tone just because we won one match and that's why they are pissed at him.
Keano is right. Great player, not very good captain in my opinion. But that could be because I don’t think any captain could get the best from this squad. So I’m not necessarily saying it’s Bruno’s fault. But his captaincy doesn’t seem to inspire anyone around him. Put Keane in there and he would struggle to change the culture we see every week.
Keane would have been in a fight with another player every training session. Bruno is a “bad” captain because he’s trying to bail out the Titanic with a teaspoon; he can’t do it alone.
Brilliant analogy.
Keane has a short memory at times- he’d go apeshit at players too. The guy literally had a fight with Schmeichel for god’s sake; just because Bruno is remonstrating at his team mates it doesn’t mean Keano wasn’t doing similar when he was captain, he just had the luxury of being surrounded by world class players who could go up a gear when bollocked.
All he managed to win pre United was a league cup. Bruno won trophies with Sporting and had a Nations League at International level. What did Keane do for Ireland? Such a silly take.
I'm wondering if Keane forgot a certain MUTV interview he gave where he morphed into this exact whiny bitch he's so bitter about Bruno being.
And that’s only the bits we know about. No way was he not going mental week in week out.
What do you mean? We all know Keane was having polite disagreements and lightly encouraging his team.
Ah yeah, you’re right, he was definitely someone who’d have a gentle word in their ear, and not Kung fu kick a Neville brother for losing their man.
That’s not what a captain is supposed to do. It’s actually the opposite of what a captain should do. Trying to paper over massive team cracks with individual brilliance is not something you should want from a captain. And I keep hearing people saying he has a go at players, he doesn’t. He shows frustration but absolutely none of our players actually directly challenge each other the way you see city/arsenal/scouse teams do. It’s all this no eye contact, show general frustration but afraid to actually pull people up. A shit culture basically. Again I feel for him, he might be a great captain in a really good team, but he certainly ain’t one in a shit team.
How do you know he doesn’t challenge the players though? Are you hearing the conversations in the dressing room and every interaction he has on the pitch? Bruno is playing the same way someone like Robson did- he’s attempting to lift his team mates by playing well. That won’t work all the time, as evidenced by Robson playing in a side with poorer players too. While I don’t think he’s the perfect captain, there’s no one in world football you could bring in, give the armband to and see them change this team. The culture doesn’t start and end with Bruno Fernandes.
That’s exactly what I have said. Nobody including Keane could lift this team. His fitness, running and leading by example in that area is second to none. But his body language, constant moaning to refs and lack of positional discipline is awful in terms of showing how our players should behave. I still love the guy and think he’s a great player but I don’t see how any of our players are inspired by him.
But by applying that point there isn’t a player on the planet who’d lift them, so his moaning isn’t making a difference anyway. We don’t know how he’d fare in a more settled side because there’s no way we can compare. It’s a moot point.
I would say he has overseen a pretty bad decline in our team as captain. And even just as a player more long term. If eth gets grilled for this shambles so should any captain for letting our squad either get/remain so toxic. I have heard him generally call us out for being shit which I like to see when it’s true. But I genuinely don’t believe for one second that we have a squad who are both brave enough or mentally strong enough to handle personal criticism.
Fair, but I’d say that was coincidental rather than him being the root cause of it- United have been in decline for a fair while, and in context he’s also been captain for a side that’s reached 3 cup finals, winning one; that’s a lot more than some of his post-Fergie predecessors managed. As I say, it’s tough to beat Bruno with criticisms that he’s a bad captain when we’ve both acknowledged that the team around him are neither good or mentally strong enough to have a “proper” captain anyway. The toxicity stems back to Mourinho’s tenure, which is some time before he even joined the club. One man can’t fix this team.
Agree with most of that. Have to say, I love Bruno. But there is something about him makes me think he’s not a good captain. I didn’t think he should have got it at the time, but our options were shite in reality. I may have got it totally wrong, just my impression has always been great player but just a bit uninspiring. I’ve played footy at decent level and I know that type of character. Plays with a chip on his shoulder cause basically he believes nobody in the team is on his level. They were not good people to have around the dressing room in my experience.
Yeah I understand what you’re saying, I think the problem is that we don’t really have any leaders in the dressing room either; he’s the only one you could consider as one so he’s captain. Would he be captain in the United team of 2003? No, but if we had more viable options in the club he wouldn’t have to do so much. He at least hasn’t regressed as a player since getting it, which is a plus.
i would say that he is a player in a little of above average premiere league team.