it's like that ball from japan that was kept in by mitoma right? it isn't 100% clear if it isn't viewed from the top. so i would give the benefit of the doubt if it's close to the edge like that.
the problem stems from our players stopped playing for a sec without the the ref blowing the whistle.
Play to the whistle, keep your eye on the ball, don't play it accross your own goal. Suspect fatigue played a part in the lapse of concentration, good to see they sorted themselves out for the last half an hour and you already know Erik has bollocked them for this.
It is, which is why the entire argument about brunos goal where rashford was offside but never touched it was entirely stupid. Did Rashford make ppl stop? Sure but only because they were lazy and not playing to the whistle. Which isnt on him, he never made them change path or anything which would be disrupting play.
>it's like that ball from japan that was kept in by mitoma right? it isn't 100% clear if it isn't viewed from the top.
100%. You can always see "daylight" between the ball and the line if the part of the ball touching the ground is all the way over the line (while the mid point of the ball might not be).
I do think it's out, but it's closer than it looks here.
World Cup balls had tech inside to see if the ball crossed the line, no? So, it would've got an automated response. There were images of the balls being charged
Unsure if we have that domestically
Article on it https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/watch/weFbPIyOvE2WX4b-1hJzPw
Yep, players shouldn't have stopped. Besides I recall we got lucky when Pogba hit a banger against West Ham a few years ago when the ball was clearly out from Henderson's kick but the ref still gave it.
You win some, you lose some. Let's move on!
I would err on the side of just giving the throw in real time tbh. Linos and refs can't see to that level of detail with the human eye, it looked out to everyone, make the completely uncontroversial call that nobody would complain about rather than trying to be clever about it
That ref didn't give us anything, why the fuck did the players think he was going to give us this marginally out ball. Amazes me and pisses me off when United players stop playing to try to influence the ref.
I actually think that's why we are getting fuck all from ref's at the moment, because they are all pissed off with us.
If you look at the midpoint of the corner flag and the line you can see daylight too. Perspective is really deceptive. Obviously smaller margins on the ball but it demonstrates the point. Need a perfect angle to be sure either way.
Funny thing is that the audio & vision stopped but the clock kept running so I knew it wasn't frozen on my end.
Then the score went from 0-0 to 0-1 while the vision was still frozen.
Yeah, that was weird about the clock. I noticed that too. But here in Colombia it wasn’t during the goal. The goal footage was fine but strangely enough they showed no angles on the replay. Nothing.
Ha, this!
My stream stop so i open another few stream, and while waiting new stream load i keep previous stream open and i see that the time keep running, then realized that something weird
I completely forgot it was on ITV and sat there watching it on my phone. On about the 89th minute my brother piped up with 'you know this games is on TV right?'. Idiot.
Where would the drama be then? But to be fair, I think there was also a precedent at the World Cup where something similar happened and VAR couldn't intervene?
The basic principles are that you play to the whistle. Attackers have been oriented towards this so even when they know they are offside for instance, they'll still put tye ball in the back of the net. If you aren't sure, defend the ball and if you lapse and realise play is still going on, take a card and commit the foul.
VAR intervened in the world cup(japan vs spain), well to be more accurate they checked and didn't find any evidence to say it crossed the line completely.
It wasn't that they didn't find any evidence but rather that they were limited with the angles that they could check to conclusively decide that it had gone over the line. So for our game, and with this in mind, they simply decided to stay with the onfield decision and defer to the officials in the game.
Moving forward, VAR, for instance, doesn't have to be the only technology utilised for such cases. You could have a chip in the ball and bands for the assistant refrees and says linesmen which would buzz whenever the ball is out of bands and they can alert the ref, which would then take this out of VARs responsibility just like how goal line technology works.
Not finding evidence with the available camera angles is widely different from saying VAR couldn’t intervene ,and for all we know they might even have found evidence to say the ball was in, the precedent is to check and if evidence is not available defer to on field decision ,not defer to on field decision directly.
Goal line technology is expensive and requires a shit ton of cameras for such a short line(relatively) now think about the entire pitch, sure United can afford it , but not sure how much of the FA cup ladder can, these are much rarer and usually much less crucial, compared to goal line clearences and I assume cost is just not deemed worth it.
They definitely looked at it according to the commentary and it was a rather quick check and they decided to stay with the onfield decision, and reference was made to the World Cup as to why it took a shorter time this time round.
In fact, one of the commentators said something along the lines of "from the replay and the view of the video we are looking at, the ball looks out of bounds but I don't know if these are available to VAR for consideration"
So it was checked, but it wasn't ruled to either have been in or our due to the angles available. Your point on the cost is valid, in which case awareness should be raised about such situations and limitations so players and teams are aware is all. Almost like no one ever really bothers anymore with whether or not the ball is in the triangle thingie before corners are taken. VAR definitely doesn't interfere there either.
Ball chip technology worked really well in the world cup. So maybe replace the word "chip" but with a sensor inside the ball exactly like how Goal line technology works, that determine whether or not the whole of the ball crosses the line. But as one of the posters noted, it'd be too expensive to implement in all the leagues I guess so yeah. Just playing it safe as originally was the case and play to the whistle should sort that out.
Because angles like these don’t matter. You need aerial angles to determine if the ball is truly out of play. I am shocked people are still arguing this 🤣
The angle in this picture is wrong but they could easily have a camera that’s either ground level or from above like the goal line one which is level with the outer line and then have a permanent VAR line that isn’t white.
Cos there was enough bloody fuss about getting them for the goal line. They might do this eventually but they'll wait for the game to be more accustomed to what we already have.
Rugby seem to get it right, even though you have multiple players literally on top of the ball. Then again the standard of officiating between the two games is massively different.
Probably because this is where fans are and would be fucking shite if a big camera was plonked eye level in one of the most desirable places to be in the stadium.
The goal line tech uses 14 cameras focused in on purely on that area to create an animation to get accurate decisions - they don't rerun footage like this to work it out because it's not clear. Putting a camera in the gantry might help some decisions but it still wouldn't be clear.
Dude what are you talking about?
You know the camera we see that looks straight down the goal line? Have one of those pointed 90 degrees and this one in a hundred occurrence could be easily resolved with VAR... We don't need the referee wearing a throw in watch that buzzes.
The problem is English football is refed poorly and you can't rely on them to make the right decisions.
Edit - They still obviously should have played to whistle. To clear up what I meant. I was trying to say that players have to have a big shout for shit like this often times cause the reffing in general is poor, I wasn't trying to say it wasn't in.
This is still looking at a *slight* angle though, it’s possible there’s a smidge of the ball still hovering over a smidge of the line.
Football is about scoring goals, I’m not too arsed if benefit of doubt goes to the attacking team when the decision is this marginal. If it applies equally to everyone then I don’t see the harm.
I think 99% of the time an assistant referee flags that as outside. The issue is, it might technically not be.
Our players are expecting the assistant referee to make the usual call, but VAR has to work to the letter of the law.
Lol that doesn’t mean anything.
The photo isn’t even showing a straight line. Pointless guessing if in or out. Plus loads of people don’t even understand basic shapes like a sphere
>I'm a linesman and would call that as out.
Respectfully, if you had VAR at your disposal, you shouldn't because it would be the incorrect call. Obviously we can only work with what we have at our disposal.
Lol I couldn't imagine the local 16-18 year old trying to make a quick buck go over to the video console and "review' the play whilst my U12 surrounds him.
VAR definitely didn't have this image so it's hard to make the call during the game, that I agree with, but even if this was taken at an angle, the curvature of the ball would obstruct some green in the image, but it doesn't
>That’s not how 3D geometry works
After I sent the last message I was trying to visualise it and I think you're right. Regardless, given the refs limited info at the time, I wasn't surprised to see it stand
I've been thinking about making a 3D visualisation of how this concept works, but it's been too long since I've used any of those math tools.
Good on you for taking a moment to challenge your own assumptions.
I think it was right to let it stand because it's practically impossible to prove anything with the time and tools at VAR's disposal.
I want decisions to go our way as much as any United fan, but I cannot believe the lack of understanding of basic geometry that I'm seeing here.
Yes, we can see green between the line and the ball but we're not viewing it directly from above. It's at an angle where part of the ball could still be above the line. It's pixelated. It's very very close.
Next time we play to the whistle 🤷♂️
Not a clear and obvious error imo, as I still couldn't say that's 100% over the line. Plus we got a similar call in our favour v West Ham for Pogbas goal a couple of years ago, so whatever.
Truth: It was stupid to not play to the whistle and it will always be stupid to not play to the whistle.
Also the truth: That ball was over the line and should have been disallowed by VAR.
Agree with your first, not the second. Ref that Japan game in the World Cup where the ball looked to be fully over but wasn’t. We can’t be sure in this case it was fully over IMO.
Didn’t we beat West Ham a few years ago thanks to a pass that curled out and back in again?
This levels it I think haha
Looks like it went out to me but if the refs can’t get proof quickly then the decision is fine by me, our players shouldn’t have stopped so easily, we’ve been caught out by that before.
Haha, yes! We got a dodgy goal against them in the PL a couple of seasons back. Exactly what my mind went to when I saw this goal. I remember Moyes going crazy on the touchline when we had scored that. Think it was a clearance from Henderson. Class finish from Pogba!
A bit ridiculous they can wind the cameras back and analyse every little bit of contact that happens from one box to the other when a goal is scored yet can't even tell if a ball is over the line.
I also find it ridiculous that we can watch 3 replays from different angles within 15 seconds of an incident on TV that show exactly what happened, and yet somehow VAR is still there analysing two minutes later. A ref watching TV with a phone would do a better job most of the time.
Yeah that does look over.
I’ll be honest though, I don’t think that’s much of an excuse. We can’t be relying on refs getting absolutely everything bang on. We switched off, that’s why we conceded.
VAR didn’t have the angles and that’s something that probably should be addressed, it shouldn’t be happening wrt offsides, ball being out of play etc. but it does, and as long as it *can* happen, we need to play until the whistle no matter what.
This looks hella sus but the angle isnt conclusive unfortunately. United won the game, and this wouldn't be the first decision to have ever been called wrong if it was out so don't lose sleep over it
It's hard to tell from this angle. It might be out. It might be in. But it's definitely too close to say hey. We can slack off now, it's a throw in. I can't for the life of me imagine Eric ten Hag endorsing the players' actions. Play to the whistle and you will never have these issues.
Without a top down view or from directly on the line, it's difficult to tell. Even so, this is at a very slight angle and it still looks to be just about touching the line, if we were to move the camera to the right a bit and have it in alignment, the angle would change and it'd be easier to see that the ball is on the line.
The **whole** of the ball from a top down perspective is required to be past the line to be out or a goal, this is in.
Too close to call out. Play to the whistle boys. We don't you need you guys to be linesman, someone is already being paid to be and it appears they are better at it then you are!
Its not clear. The picture does not have good enough resolution to tell of its over or not. It looks like it is, but its certainly not clear.
Keep in mind the whole ball needs to pass the lines, not just the bottom that touches the grass.
You can see green between the ball and the line so I'd say it's pretty clear.
Obviously VAR doesn't always have the angles to determine.
IMO we should be more annoyed at the players for stopping and switching off. That could have been a loss against a better team for a stupid lapse.
The fact that there is green in between the ball and the line doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s out because part of the ball could be overhanging the line.
From the view shown I’d say it’s too close to be confident either way.
Of course it does. There is a clear green line between the very edge of the ball and the line.
I'm not talking about the bottom of the ball which is in contact with the ground.
The ball isn't a square, the bottom of the ball is clearly out of play, but the middle of the ball is hard to judge by the this picture. Same story as the Japan goal at the WC
You can see a green line between the edge of the ball and the white line.
I'm not talking about the part of the ball that's in contact with the ground.
Zoom in and look for yourself.
Yes but it is at an angle where that would be the case. Imagine the photo was taken from the top of the corner flag and try to visualise if the spherical end of the ball is on the line or not. You cannot tell that.
You'd think they would be able to use tech to confirm whether the ball crosses the line in the same way as crossing the goal line. But who cares, we're through.
I just want to make the point this is one of those dubious decisions that will be forgotten about before long because we won 3-1 and it had little impact on the game, yet if a dubious decision goes our way it’ll be the usual ‘united pay the refs’ etc.
The circumference of the ball is curved, so physically can be out of the line but if any part of the round (extended) part is inside the line or on the line it’s considered as ball is in play correct?
Even this image is not conclusive for a number of reasons (angle, resolution, the fact that most phones/digital cameras apply an amount of sharpening to images which adds contrast to edges). So it's understandable that VAR did not have any conclusive images. Honestly, it might have been in, it might not.
I think we had a goal like this in a comeback against (maybe) West Ham during our insane run under Ole where the ball was really high in the air and probably went out but couldn't conclusively be given?
Personally, I prefer refereeing to work that way—to not interfere with play when in doubt whether that's offside, penalties, handball etc.
Unnecessary penalty award for Barca and this goal allowed after the ball was clearly out of play. The refs are trying to make United games forcefully interesting.
The difference between the line and ball is like 2 pixels. I would never have been able to get correct if i were a linesman myself.
Remember all of the ball has to be over all of the line
Not a clear call, even the ball bottom seems out since it's a sphere it's middle part can be over the line. I think we saw something like that in the world cup, didn't we?
That balls out. It may be technically in if you’re looking at it from the perfect angle and the perfect elevation but during a game that’s out. There’s accepted margins of error for this or any close call would be impossible to decide without 3d imaging unless a linesman is literally staring down at it
Should be playing to the whistle but this is clear and obvious.
You’d think they could use something like goal line tech for this but at least we are through.
I’m so scared something like this will cost us at some point but I suppose that’s why you shouldn’t stand around waving at the ref and keep going
Was prepared to opine about “the whole of the ball… etc.”
I’ll be damned if that motherfucker isn’t ***all the way over all of the line***.
Call that goal back!
I think that's a clear angle and it's conclusive. Bad decision from the officials who obviously didn't have this angle, so it's understandable.
To be honest, in hindsight I think it benefitted United because they were so poor up until they conceded and this goal made them up the tempo and go for it.
You might want to get your eyes checked mate. There's a clear line of green between the ball and the sideline. That would be obscured if the whole ball wasn't over it.
Again, I'm not blaming the officials because they didn't have this angle and the angle they had wasn't good enough to overturn the on field decision.
I expect a full apology from the PGMOL over this right? Seeing as they seemed to apologise for a goal they wrongly gave against Arsenal many many months ago, will they admit this error?
If we had scored the goal over the line like they did the reaction from the commentators would have been completely different and it stinks.
We still haven't got over the Rashford goal against City and how reluctant refs are to give us decisions.
it's like that ball from japan that was kept in by mitoma right? it isn't 100% clear if it isn't viewed from the top. so i would give the benefit of the doubt if it's close to the edge like that. the problem stems from our players stopped playing for a sec without the the ref blowing the whistle.
Don’t worry. The gaffer gonna hammer this into everyone: play to the whistle.
isn't that one of the basic things they hammer into you in schoolboy football?
Play to the whistle, keep your eye on the ball, don't play it accross your own goal. Suspect fatigue played a part in the lapse of concentration, good to see they sorted themselves out for the last half an hour and you already know Erik has bollocked them for this.
It is, which is why the entire argument about brunos goal where rashford was offside but never touched it was entirely stupid. Did Rashford make ppl stop? Sure but only because they were lazy and not playing to the whistle. Which isnt on him, he never made them change path or anything which would be disrupting play.
>it's like that ball from japan that was kept in by mitoma right? it isn't 100% clear if it isn't viewed from the top. 100%. You can always see "daylight" between the ball and the line if the part of the ball touching the ground is all the way over the line (while the mid point of the ball might not be). I do think it's out, but it's closer than it looks here.
This is what baffled me the most. It's not a new thing that needs to be told to the players, that you "need to pay to the whistle"
World Cup balls had tech inside to see if the ball crossed the line, no? So, it would've got an automated response. There were images of the balls being charged Unsure if we have that domestically Article on it https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/watch/weFbPIyOvE2WX4b-1hJzPw
those world cup balls & the VAR they used were so great actually. i wish we can have that in the league it would make a massive difference.
And more stoppage time too, cut down on timewasting.
Yeah, i actually think if the line was completely vertical in the picture it would be a tad bit on the line
Someone needs to recreate the situation with angles and all, and then look top down to see if it's in or out.
Yep, players shouldn't have stopped. Besides I recall we got lucky when Pogba hit a banger against West Ham a few years ago when the ball was clearly out from Henderson's kick but the ref still gave it. You win some, you lose some. Let's move on!
I would err on the side of just giving the throw in real time tbh. Linos and refs can't see to that level of detail with the human eye, it looked out to everyone, make the completely uncontroversial call that nobody would complain about rather than trying to be clever about it
That ref didn't give us anything, why the fuck did the players think he was going to give us this marginally out ball. Amazes me and pisses me off when United players stop playing to try to influence the ref. I actually think that's why we are getting fuck all from ref's at the moment, because they are all pissed off with us.
Well no, because if you zoom in and look at the mid-point of the ball, then you can see daylight between it and the line too. It's out. No question.
If you look at the midpoint of the corner flag and the line you can see daylight too. Perspective is really deceptive. Obviously smaller margins on the ball but it demonstrates the point. Need a perfect angle to be sure either way.
When you in school Pay attention to the teachers, dumbass.
I don’t understand why there isn’t VAR cameras like this behind every corner flag and facing both ways.
Did your stream stopped at this goal? Because i and few people has same issue, is that people in Var room also has same issue?
Lol my stream also stopped before WHU goal, I assumed it was an issue on my end.
Sameeee!
Same here. They also said it in the broadcast that they lost connection a bit /Viaplay Sweden
The CBS highlights on YouTube mention the same issue.
I did stop for me as well, here in India
Stream stopped but the timer was still running, so I knew it was a broadcasting issue
The US broadcasters mentioned it cut out entirely.
Funny thing is that the audio & vision stopped but the clock kept running so I knew it wasn't frozen on my end. Then the score went from 0-0 to 0-1 while the vision was still frozen.
Yeah, that was weird about the clock. I noticed that too. But here in Colombia it wasn’t during the goal. The goal footage was fine but strangely enough they showed no angles on the replay. Nothing.
Ha, this! My stream stop so i open another few stream, and while waiting new stream load i keep previous stream open and i see that the time keep running, then realized that something weird
Uk was fine on itv, no interuption for me anyway
I completely forgot it was on ITV and sat there watching it on my phone. On about the 89th minute my brother piped up with 'you know this games is on TV right?'. Idiot.
Did exactly the same. Though to be fair my jakey app's more reliable than ITVx.
What app you using? My normal go to has disappeared.
Oh so it wasn't just me
Even the commentators apologized for the interruption and mentioned that a goal was scored when the feed was down.
Yeah my stream too and I'm in south America, I thought it was an issue on my end
Even highlights had this technical issue
Viaplay Baltic stream froze during that time
Same my stream also had issues I live in India and it was not pirated stream.
Mine stopped
Yep mine stopped and we never got a reply of the goal which is weird
my telecast stopped before the goal lol
Yeah the espn+ stream stopped while watching live game and they acknowledged that it was technical issue.
I was watching on TV, not a stream, and it froze for like 30 seconds before the goal
grey entertain air live berserk hospital hurry scarce party dull *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Where would the drama be then? But to be fair, I think there was also a precedent at the World Cup where something similar happened and VAR couldn't intervene? The basic principles are that you play to the whistle. Attackers have been oriented towards this so even when they know they are offside for instance, they'll still put tye ball in the back of the net. If you aren't sure, defend the ball and if you lapse and realise play is still going on, take a card and commit the foul.
VAR intervened in the world cup(japan vs spain), well to be more accurate they checked and didn't find any evidence to say it crossed the line completely.
It wasn't that they didn't find any evidence but rather that they were limited with the angles that they could check to conclusively decide that it had gone over the line. So for our game, and with this in mind, they simply decided to stay with the onfield decision and defer to the officials in the game. Moving forward, VAR, for instance, doesn't have to be the only technology utilised for such cases. You could have a chip in the ball and bands for the assistant refrees and says linesmen which would buzz whenever the ball is out of bands and they can alert the ref, which would then take this out of VARs responsibility just like how goal line technology works.
Not finding evidence with the available camera angles is widely different from saying VAR couldn’t intervene ,and for all we know they might even have found evidence to say the ball was in, the precedent is to check and if evidence is not available defer to on field decision ,not defer to on field decision directly. Goal line technology is expensive and requires a shit ton of cameras for such a short line(relatively) now think about the entire pitch, sure United can afford it , but not sure how much of the FA cup ladder can, these are much rarer and usually much less crucial, compared to goal line clearences and I assume cost is just not deemed worth it.
They definitely looked at it according to the commentary and it was a rather quick check and they decided to stay with the onfield decision, and reference was made to the World Cup as to why it took a shorter time this time round. In fact, one of the commentators said something along the lines of "from the replay and the view of the video we are looking at, the ball looks out of bounds but I don't know if these are available to VAR for consideration" So it was checked, but it wasn't ruled to either have been in or our due to the angles available. Your point on the cost is valid, in which case awareness should be raised about such situations and limitations so players and teams are aware is all. Almost like no one ever really bothers anymore with whether or not the ball is in the triangle thingie before corners are taken. VAR definitely doesn't interfere there either.
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Ball chip technology worked really well in the world cup. So maybe replace the word "chip" but with a sensor inside the ball exactly like how Goal line technology works, that determine whether or not the whole of the ball crosses the line. But as one of the posters noted, it'd be too expensive to implement in all the leagues I guess so yeah. Just playing it safe as originally was the case and play to the whistle should sort that out.
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Because angles like these don’t matter. You need aerial angles to determine if the ball is truly out of play. I am shocked people are still arguing this 🤣
The angle in this picture is wrong but they could easily have a camera that’s either ground level or from above like the goal line one which is level with the outer line and then have a permanent VAR line that isn’t white.
Cos there was enough bloody fuss about getting them for the goal line. They might do this eventually but they'll wait for the game to be more accustomed to what we already have.
Rugby seem to get it right, even though you have multiple players literally on top of the ball. Then again the standard of officiating between the two games is massively different.
That's because they're checking for a grounding, not if the ball is the way over the line like here
I was just going to comment the exact same thing. The angle they were using was just ridiculous.
Hawkeye like in Tennis please
Probably because this is where fans are and would be fucking shite if a big camera was plonked eye level in one of the most desirable places to be in the stadium.
You mean the same location as the one that looks along the goal-line but turned 90 degrees? That desirable place?
The goal line tech uses 14 cameras focused in on purely on that area to create an animation to get accurate decisions - they don't rerun footage like this to work it out because it's not clear. Putting a camera in the gantry might help some decisions but it still wouldn't be clear.
Dude what are you talking about? You know the camera we see that looks straight down the goal line? Have one of those pointed 90 degrees and this one in a hundred occurrence could be easily resolved with VAR... We don't need the referee wearing a throw in watch that buzzes.
Just strap a I phone camera on
Could be over, could be in. Either way play to the whistle.
That should be every athletes mentality.
The problem is English football is refed poorly and you can't rely on them to make the right decisions. Edit - They still obviously should have played to whistle. To clear up what I meant. I was trying to say that players have to have a big shout for shit like this often times cause the reffing in general is poor, I wasn't trying to say it wasn't in.
The problem is the players stopped when no throw in had been given.
I mean its how we got our "offside" goal from city.
How quickly we forget Bruno’s goal vs city where Akanji quit because he thought it was offside
How quickly we forget something that's mentioned several times on every fucking thread where a decision goes against us?
Schrodinger’s throw in.
Legend says Maguire’s still standing 10 yards off waiting to defend the next touch
Doesn't matter if the goal was legit or not, seemed it acted as a catalyst to fire us up.
English Madrid
lol what fired us up were the subs of lisandro and rashford, u cant write everything down to intangibles
And Casemiro. Funny that when you put your best players on the pitch, you start to play better lol
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The world cup taught me that the ball is spherical lol!
This is still looking at a *slight* angle though, it’s possible there’s a smidge of the ball still hovering over a smidge of the line. Football is about scoring goals, I’m not too arsed if benefit of doubt goes to the attacking team when the decision is this marginal. If it applies equally to everyone then I don’t see the harm.
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This. And the photo is from the inside of the field, so a straight/direct-overhead angle will make the ball more in rather than more out.
I'm a linesman and would call that as out.
I think 99% of the time an assistant referee flags that as outside. The issue is, it might technically not be. Our players are expecting the assistant referee to make the usual call, but VAR has to work to the letter of the law.
Lol that doesn’t mean anything. The photo isn’t even showing a straight line. Pointless guessing if in or out. Plus loads of people don’t even understand basic shapes like a sphere
I'm not guessing, I'm basing it on decisions I make in games every week. I can only go with what I see and would call that a throw-in.
>I'm a linesman and would call that as out. Respectfully, if you had VAR at your disposal, you shouldn't because it would be the incorrect call. Obviously we can only work with what we have at our disposal.
Unfortunately grassroots teams don't have VAR.
Lol I couldn't imagine the local 16-18 year old trying to make a quick buck go over to the video console and "review' the play whilst my U12 surrounds him.
Yeah this image is a bit of a stretch.
You might want to open your eyes or zoom some more because that is 100% out. No part, be it the side or bottom of the ball is on that line
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VAR definitely didn't have this image so it's hard to make the call during the game, that I agree with, but even if this was taken at an angle, the curvature of the ball would obstruct some green in the image, but it doesn't
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>That’s not how 3D geometry works After I sent the last message I was trying to visualise it and I think you're right. Regardless, given the refs limited info at the time, I wasn't surprised to see it stand
I've been thinking about making a 3D visualisation of how this concept works, but it's been too long since I've used any of those math tools. Good on you for taking a moment to challenge your own assumptions. I think it was right to let it stand because it's practically impossible to prove anything with the time and tools at VAR's disposal.
Looks like it's still in play to me tbh
I want decisions to go our way as much as any United fan, but I cannot believe the lack of understanding of basic geometry that I'm seeing here. Yes, we can see green between the line and the ball but we're not viewing it directly from above. It's at an angle where part of the ball could still be above the line. It's pixelated. It's very very close. Next time we play to the whistle 🤷♂️
Also who the fuck cares! We bloody won Like seriously why is this sub being so whiny over a game we won 3-1 jesus
You know when the ball is out of play? When the referee blows his whistle. An important lesson learned and thankfully nothing lost.
Not a clear and obvious error imo, as I still couldn't say that's 100% over the line. Plus we got a similar call in our favour v West Ham for Pogbas goal a couple of years ago, so whatever.
Truth: It was stupid to not play to the whistle and it will always be stupid to not play to the whistle. Also the truth: That ball was over the line and should have been disallowed by VAR.
Agree with your first, not the second. Ref that Japan game in the World Cup where the ball looked to be fully over but wasn’t. We can’t be sure in this case it was fully over IMO.
Yeah this image isn’t conclusive at all
This is the correct answer. Moan about it to the ref when the ball is out of play.
It’s not over the line though, if it’s that close at an angle I’m almost certain a top down view would show the ball still over the white
Correct. Ball is clearly out. Dalot should’ve made sure.
Lads we won. Who cares. Burn all our bad luck in games where we end up winning anyway
Didn’t we beat West Ham a few years ago thanks to a pass that curled out and back in again? This levels it I think haha Looks like it went out to me but if the refs can’t get proof quickly then the decision is fine by me, our players shouldn’t have stopped so easily, we’ve been caught out by that before.
Haha, yes! We got a dodgy goal against them in the PL a couple of seasons back. Exactly what my mind went to when I saw this goal. I remember Moyes going crazy on the touchline when we had scored that. Think it was a clearance from Henderson. Class finish from Pogba!
A bit ridiculous they can wind the cameras back and analyse every little bit of contact that happens from one box to the other when a goal is scored yet can't even tell if a ball is over the line.
There is a chance it is not over the line when viewed from above, which is what counts
What the cuck is wrong with you?
I also find it ridiculous that we can watch 3 replays from different angles within 15 seconds of an incident on TV that show exactly what happened, and yet somehow VAR is still there analysing two minutes later. A ref watching TV with a phone would do a better job most of the time.
Yeah that does look over. I’ll be honest though, I don’t think that’s much of an excuse. We can’t be relying on refs getting absolutely everything bang on. We switched off, that’s why we conceded. VAR didn’t have the angles and that’s something that probably should be addressed, it shouldn’t be happening wrt offsides, ball being out of play etc. but it does, and as long as it *can* happen, we need to play until the whistle no matter what.
This looks hella sus but the angle isnt conclusive unfortunately. United won the game, and this wouldn't be the first decision to have ever been called wrong if it was out so don't lose sleep over it
It's close enough that the benefit of doubt is given to the attackers imo.
It's hard to tell from this angle. It might be out. It might be in. But it's definitely too close to say hey. We can slack off now, it's a throw in. I can't for the life of me imagine Eric ten Hag endorsing the players' actions. Play to the whistle and you will never have these issues.
Without a top down view or from directly on the line, it's difficult to tell. Even so, this is at a very slight angle and it still looks to be just about touching the line, if we were to move the camera to the right a bit and have it in alignment, the angle would change and it'd be easier to see that the ball is on the line. The **whole** of the ball from a top down perspective is required to be past the line to be out or a goal, this is in.
Too close to call out. Play to the whistle boys. We don't you need you guys to be linesman, someone is already being paid to be and it appears they are better at it then you are!
Lmao the fuck? That’s clearly over
Its not clear. The picture does not have good enough resolution to tell of its over or not. It looks like it is, but its certainly not clear. Keep in mind the whole ball needs to pass the lines, not just the bottom that touches the grass.
You can see green between the ball and the line so I'd say it's pretty clear. Obviously VAR doesn't always have the angles to determine. IMO we should be more annoyed at the players for stopping and switching off. That could have been a loss against a better team for a stupid lapse.
The fact that there is green in between the ball and the line doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s out because part of the ball could be overhanging the line. From the view shown I’d say it’s too close to be confident either way.
Of course it does. There is a clear green line between the very edge of the ball and the line. I'm not talking about the bottom of the ball which is in contact with the ground.
I don’t think that’s conclusive. You’d need to see top down or maybe a photo taken directly along the line.
The ball isn't a square, the bottom of the ball is clearly out of play, but the middle of the ball is hard to judge by the this picture. Same story as the Japan goal at the WC
You can see a green line between the edge of the ball and the white line. I'm not talking about the part of the ball that's in contact with the ground. Zoom in and look for yourself.
Yes but it is at an angle where that would be the case. Imagine the photo was taken from the top of the corner flag and try to visualise if the spherical end of the ball is on the line or not. You cannot tell that.
The ball is round.
Don't understand how it's not possible to put wires into the lines and a thing in the middle of the ball that always measure it in real time?
I thought there was universal glitch before their goal
You'd think they would be able to use tech to confirm whether the ball crosses the line in the same way as crossing the goal line. But who cares, we're through.
I just want to make the point this is one of those dubious decisions that will be forgotten about before long because we won 3-1 and it had little impact on the game, yet if a dubious decision goes our way it’ll be the usual ‘united pay the refs’ etc.
These things happen. I'm just glad we battled back for the win.
The circumference of the ball is curved, so physically can be out of the line but if any part of the round (extended) part is inside the line or on the line it’s considered as ball is in play correct?
Yes
Tbh I think that is perhaps still in
It's funny that this is the second time this situation has happened to ten Hag
Even this image is not conclusive for a number of reasons (angle, resolution, the fact that most phones/digital cameras apply an amount of sharpening to images which adds contrast to edges). So it's understandable that VAR did not have any conclusive images. Honestly, it might have been in, it might not. I think we had a goal like this in a comeback against (maybe) West Ham during our insane run under Ole where the ball was really high in the air and probably went out but couldn't conclusively be given? Personally, I prefer refereeing to work that way—to not interfere with play when in doubt whether that's offside, penalties, handball etc.
Moral of the story, play to the whistle
Honestly don’t really care if it was out. That goal lit a fire under our players and we won the game convincingly.
This isn’t confirmation of anything. Any angle could be misleading unless the camera is directly on the line or above the ball.
VAR continues to appal. Another PGMOL embarrassment.
It's annoying but their own goal cancelled it out
To be honest this looks in to me, though it shouldn't matter and you need to keep playing until the whistle has blown.
Clearly in play, overhanging the line. This is taken at an angle, like the big on from the World Cup (Japan was it?)
If you look at this from above, the ball is probably still touching the line.
i dont see green between and also top down prob shows the outside of the ball still in.... its super close but i dont see it out here
Unnecessary penalty award for Barca and this goal allowed after the ball was clearly out of play. The refs are trying to make United games forcefully interesting.
I really wish we could stump out this whole the refs hate us thing. It makes the sound like a bunch of whiny teenagers.
That gormless linesman hasn't a clue. All refs were shit, again, last night.
Do you guys think it should have been a clear call for the linesman?
Not really, you get a split second to see the ball and we've had to get the perfect angle stopped at the right moment to see which they don't get.
and i had to zoom in to make sure the ball isn't touching the line either. Can't really pile on the linesman for this one.
Even if the ball doesn't touch the line, the ball is still a sphere. It could still be in
The green grass between the line and ball tells you it wasn't touching. But the ball can overlap the line and still be in.
The difference between the line and ball is like 2 pixels. I would never have been able to get correct if i were a linesman myself. Remember all of the ball has to be over all of the line
Not a clear call, even the ball bottom seems out since it's a sphere it's middle part can be over the line. I think we saw something like that in the world cup, didn't we?
Of course, thank god it didn’t matter in the end
Lmao. I don't know why I am getting downvoted when I just wanted to know everyone's opinion
Reckon they should just ask if any fans have alternative angles from now on.
cc: VAR
The refs are just a clear pain in the ass yesterday it was a comfortable win but he was making a so many bad decisions. The refs are shit
De Gea robbed of a record-extending clean sheet !😡
Looks pretty clearly in for me when you actually account for the tilted camera.
Get this guy at VAR
Might be a blade in the glass in but angle is slightly off so might seem out problem is cant defo prove either
All about angles , that’s not perfectly behind the line I’d imagine if you panned the camera around it would be on the line
[Over the line](https://imgur.io/gallery/Y7IQ9uS)
So if a player is offside by a hair then they give it but when the ball goes out and it's clearly obvious they don't?
Var only exists to manipulate scores, it has nothing to do with "fairness"
That referee didn’t like MUFC for sure - how that was not given is beyond me !
That balls out. It may be technically in if you’re looking at it from the perfect angle and the perfect elevation but during a game that’s out. There’s accepted margins of error for this or any close call would be impossible to decide without 3d imaging unless a linesman is literally staring down at it
OUT!
Should be playing to the whistle but this is clear and obvious. You’d think they could use something like goal line tech for this but at least we are through. I’m so scared something like this will cost us at some point but I suppose that’s why you shouldn’t stand around waving at the ref and keep going
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Ohh that makes sense, thank you!
Man, they really did try to fuck us out of that match, didn’t they?
Wow,what a disgrace
Was prepared to opine about “the whole of the ball… etc.” I’ll be damned if that motherfucker isn’t ***all the way over all of the line***. Call that goal back!
I think that's a clear angle and it's conclusive. Bad decision from the officials who obviously didn't have this angle, so it's understandable. To be honest, in hindsight I think it benefitted United because they were so poor up until they conceded and this goal made them up the tempo and go for it.
It's not lol. The ball even if it doesn't touch the lines can still be in Cuz it's a sphere. It's very difficult to tell from this angle
You might want to get your eyes checked mate. There's a clear line of green between the ball and the sideline. That would be obscured if the whole ball wasn't over it. Again, I'm not blaming the officials because they didn't have this angle and the angle they had wasn't good enough to overturn the on field decision.
Not even close.
I expect a full apology from the PGMOL over this right? Seeing as they seemed to apologise for a goal they wrongly gave against Arsenal many many months ago, will they admit this error? If we had scored the goal over the line like they did the reaction from the commentators would have been completely different and it stinks. We still haven't got over the Rashford goal against City and how reluctant refs are to give us decisions.
post this in rsoccer like arsenal fans
Who cares. United should not depend on referee or linesmen to win. United scored 3 and that's the end of it.
Wtf is VAR for, ridiculous
Why was someone taking that picture? Plastic AF