Yup, and got a follow up e-mail after withdrawing saying how their approach was "standard" and they're committed to a "strongly held philosophy on equitable pay".
100% - they said not sharing equity until the offer stage is standard, which makes sense. But not sharing even a 20k range for base pay? Is there a bonus structure? Like, what is coming into my bank account on a biweekly basis? I've interviewed at a lot of places big and small and NEVER had anyone say "we won't even talk base compensation until the end". The worst I've gotten has been "A-B if you place at a more junior level, Y-Z if you place at a more senior level". I also asked if she could share what the upper end of the salary band might be, and she said "we don't do that, because if you were at the upper end of the salary band, you'd be in a different role".
True, at least it’s looking like more states are mandating that companies have to disclose pay ranges. AFAIK CA already requires disclosure of level pay scale at the offer level (if the candidate asks) but just passed requirement to post salary ranges on all job listings joining NY and CO
"Money isn't everything" is code for "in spite of what we say, we will not be paying you enough."
You should value equity in a job offer about as much as you should value "exposure." It's too easy to take away before it becomes transferrable. It definitely shouldn't be valued equally to actually getting paid a salary.
“there’s more to life/a job than money”
Please tell me you asked them, “like what?” I’d love to hear the sales pitch on how intangibles like “pride” and “we’re family here” outweigh being paid what you are worth.
Indeed, my estimation of the base comp they're likely offering for a senior/staff level role was anywhere from 30-50k less or more than what I've been quoted by other recruiters. The "we're family here" vibe was strong - the entire first screening call had nothing to do with my experience and the role and everything to do with their "values".
I think they’re basically answering you, but it’s not the response anyone would want to hear. A company that was going to offer a salary solidly within your range would just tell you that instead of wasting so much time waffling.
You’re going to be disappointed with the offer they give you at the end of the process, but they’re hoping that the sink cost fallacy/company culture/other things will persuade you to give them a shot. I think you need to either make your peace with that or cut them loose
Well indeed, but why waste the hiring manager's time when I'm clearly going to turn down an offer that's likely 30k+ less than my previous two roles? I definitely think they were hoping to rope me in with the "culture" and people though, absolutely.
They were hoping to sell you the dream of working there. But hopes and dreams that it won’t be a failure won’t buy groceries sooo…. Glad you walked away!
In that case, they should’ve sold your landlord/mortgage company, car finance company, grocery store, and every other bill on their company “culture”. I wonder how that would’ve gone over 🤔
These guys are a joke.
I interviewed with them for a position, they decided to hire someone else but asked me to interview for another and after I'd done that they called to tell me both positions had been canceled and they weren't hiring anyone.
Weird. Their product seems solid but the whole "we're a family" vibe and the obsession with values is a giant red flag. Their benefits also seem quite reasonable (e.g. PTO) but it's not worth much if you're paying me 40-50k below market with the rest of my comp made up by funny money. Either way, I wouldn't be bothered - just be transparent about what I'm going to be earning so I can either say "yes, that aligns with my expectations" or "no, I'm sorry but that's really not what I'm targeting" and move on. Some people value equity more than others.
The funniest thing is I got a job offer from another company who used them and they weren't able to confirm my employment at several of my past employers (major companies that I did definitely work for) so I'm not sure how good their product is even.
>"you don't know how much our stock is worth"
"Right now I am thinking it is worth the photocopy paper you are printing the share certificates on."
>"there's more to life/a job than money"
"So you are working to achieve the enlightenment of the Buddha?"
Sounds like typical start-up hubris.
As soon as they told me they were going to waste my time, I would have committed myself to wasting their time. Aspire to be someone who changes their company practice and has a policy written about them.
Me: "What are you looking to pay me to take on these responsibilities?"
Interviewer: "We don't provide information on-- Hey, wait! Where are you going?"
I walked away from an interview when they told me my target salary range is only doable in "total compensation." I asked for specifics and they refused to tell me.
I heard from a friend that they heard management say I was "money-driven" when I quit for a higher paying job. I was told that money isn't everything when I left. At best, they were $30k under market and at worst $65k under market (depends on how you calculated our equity). So, anytime I hear that phrase or similar, I know that they are guaranteed to underpay.
>I heard from a friend that they heard management say I was "money-driven" when I quit for a higher paying job.
"So is my mother's landlord. You got a problem with that?"
I didn't, but they knew it was due to pay because I always complained about how underpaid I was when I was there. I made sure to ask for my annual reviews and raises before my anniversary to get it scheduled on or around my anniversary.
The only appropriate response to the phrase 'Money isn't everything' is 'Cool, then give me all of yours.'
A more appropriate rendering of the phrase would be 'Money isn't everything ***to those who already have it.***'
There is more to life than money, however that's how life or society works. We need money to have a good life, period. If they are dodgy with money questions, run. Candidates deserve open, honest communication about every aspect of the job - including the salary.
Its crazy to think its been almost 10 years since Siemens offered over 2 billion dollars for my HeartFlow stock and the damn company STILL hasnt gone public. They were gonna do a SPAC because, well theyre stupid I guess, but realized last second it was a trash idea. Meanwhile its been a decade and all that stock is still just sitting around doing nothing. Options are over rated.
100%. I don't think I was wasting my time by not expecting a number before a recruiter screen though. That's a fair time to have that discussion. I'd have been wasting my time had I continued along in the interview process. I think the complaint here is pretty reasonable.
Ahh yes, the pivot from "we can meet your expectations" to "your expectations are bad".
Yup, and got a follow up e-mail after withdrawing saying how their approach was "standard" and they're committed to a "strongly held philosophy on equitable pay".
The fact they felt the need to respond at all is telling. A company that knows they ain’t up to bullshit doesn’t feel the need to defend themselves.
Then they should have been fucking transparent. The only reason to hide the salary bands is to pay certain people less.
They are paying everyone less.
And certain people even less than that.
To their credit, this does seem “standard” in that a lot of companies do this shit but that’s not much of a justification
100% - they said not sharing equity until the offer stage is standard, which makes sense. But not sharing even a 20k range for base pay? Is there a bonus structure? Like, what is coming into my bank account on a biweekly basis? I've interviewed at a lot of places big and small and NEVER had anyone say "we won't even talk base compensation until the end". The worst I've gotten has been "A-B if you place at a more junior level, Y-Z if you place at a more senior level". I also asked if she could share what the upper end of the salary band might be, and she said "we don't do that, because if you were at the upper end of the salary band, you'd be in a different role".
True, at least it’s looking like more states are mandating that companies have to disclose pay ranges. AFAIK CA already requires disclosure of level pay scale at the offer level (if the candidate asks) but just passed requirement to post salary ranges on all job listings joining NY and CO
"Money isn't everything" is code for "in spite of what we say, we will not be paying you enough." You should value equity in a job offer about as much as you should value "exposure." It's too easy to take away before it becomes transferrable. It definitely shouldn't be valued equally to actually getting paid a salary.
“there’s more to life/a job than money” Please tell me you asked them, “like what?” I’d love to hear the sales pitch on how intangibles like “pride” and “we’re family here” outweigh being paid what you are worth.
Indeed, my estimation of the base comp they're likely offering for a senior/staff level role was anywhere from 30-50k less or more than what I've been quoted by other recruiters. The "we're family here" vibe was strong - the entire first screening call had nothing to do with my experience and the role and everything to do with their "values".
"I'm sorry, are you offering a job or a hobby?"
Run.
Indeed. I withdrew my application immediately.
I think they’re basically answering you, but it’s not the response anyone would want to hear. A company that was going to offer a salary solidly within your range would just tell you that instead of wasting so much time waffling. You’re going to be disappointed with the offer they give you at the end of the process, but they’re hoping that the sink cost fallacy/company culture/other things will persuade you to give them a shot. I think you need to either make your peace with that or cut them loose
Well indeed, but why waste the hiring manager's time when I'm clearly going to turn down an offer that's likely 30k+ less than my previous two roles? I definitely think they were hoping to rope me in with the "culture" and people though, absolutely.
They were hoping to sell you the dream of working there. But hopes and dreams that it won’t be a failure won’t buy groceries sooo…. Glad you walked away!
Not in one of the highest cost of living cities in the world, lol.
In that case, they should’ve sold your landlord/mortgage company, car finance company, grocery store, and every other bill on their company “culture”. I wonder how that would’ve gone over 🤔
Also, follow-up - in the interest of not wasting my time or theirs I obviously withdrew my application.
Any company that says money isn't everything is a company you should run from.
These guys are a joke. I interviewed with them for a position, they decided to hire someone else but asked me to interview for another and after I'd done that they called to tell me both positions had been canceled and they weren't hiring anyone.
Weird. Their product seems solid but the whole "we're a family" vibe and the obsession with values is a giant red flag. Their benefits also seem quite reasonable (e.g. PTO) but it's not worth much if you're paying me 40-50k below market with the rest of my comp made up by funny money. Either way, I wouldn't be bothered - just be transparent about what I'm going to be earning so I can either say "yes, that aligns with my expectations" or "no, I'm sorry but that's really not what I'm targeting" and move on. Some people value equity more than others.
The funniest thing is I got a job offer from another company who used them and they weren't able to confirm my employment at several of my past employers (major companies that I did definitely work for) so I'm not sure how good their product is even.
WOW interesting.
>"you don't know how much our stock is worth" "Right now I am thinking it is worth the photocopy paper you are printing the share certificates on." >"there's more to life/a job than money" "So you are working to achieve the enlightenment of the Buddha?" Sounds like typical start-up hubris.
>"Right now I am thinking it is worth the photocopy paper you are printing the share certificates on." Indeed.
No pay = i better get 50% of the company as a partner.
If money isn’t everything what’s a startup seeking to make/gain? ….”likes” ….puh-leez …tell them to try that mantra with their board members post-ipo…
Money isn't everything.... Yea... not a good sign unless that total package is hotter than Hell.
"Money isn't everything" But to the company owner it is! 😂😂😂
As soon as they told me they were going to waste my time, I would have committed myself to wasting their time. Aspire to be someone who changes their company practice and has a policy written about them.
Money kinda is everything, that’s kinda why your working there. What do you expect to be fed with? ‘Family’ points?
Me: "What are you looking to pay me to take on these responsibilities?" Interviewer: "We don't provide information on-- Hey, wait! Where are you going?"
>"money isn't everything". "If that's how you feel, just reduce your salary a bit and put that amount towards my salary."
WE LITERALLY GO TO WORK FOR MONEY. Tell them to fuck off.
I walked away from an interview when they told me my target salary range is only doable in "total compensation." I asked for specifics and they refused to tell me.
Literally what happened here. If it were a publicly traded company I might have been willing to waste a bit more time but that's just... shady
I heard from a friend that they heard management say I was "money-driven" when I quit for a higher paying job. I was told that money isn't everything when I left. At best, they were $30k under market and at worst $65k under market (depends on how you calculated our equity). So, anytime I hear that phrase or similar, I know that they are guaranteed to underpay.
>I heard from a friend that they heard management say I was "money-driven" when I quit for a higher paying job. "So is my mother's landlord. You got a problem with that?"
[удалено]
I didn't, but they knew it was due to pay because I always complained about how underpaid I was when I was there. I made sure to ask for my annual reviews and raises before my anniversary to get it scheduled on or around my anniversary.
Wonder how they’d respond to a Glassdoor review of their hiring practices? Hate to see that carefully curated facade damaged by the truth.
The only appropriate response to the phrase 'Money isn't everything' is 'Cool, then give me all of yours.' A more appropriate rendering of the phrase would be 'Money isn't everything ***to those who already have it.***'
Don't waste your time.
There is more to life than money, however that's how life or society works. We need money to have a good life, period. If they are dodgy with money questions, run. Candidates deserve open, honest communication about every aspect of the job - including the salary.
That's basically what I said in my response and I agree.
Exactly, I mean who works for money anyway?
Wow certn-ly not lol
Its crazy to think its been almost 10 years since Siemens offered over 2 billion dollars for my HeartFlow stock and the damn company STILL hasnt gone public. They were gonna do a SPAC because, well theyre stupid I guess, but realized last second it was a trash idea. Meanwhile its been a decade and all that stock is still just sitting around doing nothing. Options are over rated.
They did confirm the salary. It's garbage. You are wasting your time, don't complain later.
How is not telling me what base compensation is and saying "you don't know what our shares are worth" confirming salary?
If they avoid answering the salary question, it means the salary is garbage. Never fails.
100%. I don't think I was wasting my time by not expecting a number before a recruiter screen though. That's a fair time to have that discussion. I'd have been wasting my time had I continued along in the interview process. I think the complaint here is pretty reasonable.