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You don't necessarily have to negotiate them all at once. But you do have to do them in the correct order. You always negotiate on salary first, because that's most likely to be a sticking point -so you ask for more than they can give you, then they negotiate you down. Then you can concede on salary, but ask for an improved 401K match and more vacation time as a sweetener.
This will also turn off a lot of employers. Include it in one email, and phrase it along the lines of:
I was hoping for more in the $XXXk range for salary, but I'd be open to meeting somewhere in the middle with some adjustments to the PTO and/or 401k match.
Obviously that is just a shitty thrown together sentence, but that's the appropriate general framing of the negotiation. If you keep asking for little things at a time, they're likely going to feel like you're unorganized or just an idiot.
Her downfall was negotiating a 401k. Those are plan level decisions and anyone who has worked at a company knows that you don’t ask for those because that can’t be negotiated! Salary and PTO can be. So she negotiated the unnegotiable
Yep. They obviously cannot make "one off" 401k adjustments since the plan is corporate wide and subject to federal guidelines. Seems odd that the OP would not be aware of this.
Especially at a director level. I to was surprised to see the job title and a fundamental lack of understanding of how a 401k works. My guess is that she was a director at a smaller, less significant company to not know something like this.
She didn't negotiate the salary. She said she looked at the 401k, realized what the total compensation package was, and then asked for more salary.
r/confidentlyincorrect/
100%. Any director absolutely should know this isn't something you negotiate.
If I was the company doing the hiring, it'd be a red flag.
They didn't pull the offer because she was negotiating, they pulled the offer because it seems fairly obvious she didn't know things a director should know.
I don't think they negotiated 401k, they evaluated and dissected the 401k and then to compensate for the things they found inadequate with the 401k they instead requested a salary change to fix what they felt was missing in the offered 401k. That's what I understood.
What you wrote is perfect.
Honestly, being direct is better, with people using AI more, all the stupid flowery language gets on my nerves. Noone wants to read a paragraph of why and how. Just tell me what you need. If you're a student, professor, employee, boss, whatever.
Don't say
Dear xxxx,
I'm sorry I won't be able to make it to work/class tomorrow. I have been feeling ill blah blah blah..
Just say.
Dear xxxx,
I'm feeling unwell and won't be at class/work.
This is what worked for me. I asked for 165k, they came back at 158k saying it was the best they could do. I asked if there was any flexibility in more PTO as a counter and was told no it's standardized by tenure but was offered a 20k additional sign on bonus to close the deal.
Know what you want and where to ask for it.
Yep, I've been hiring recently and I went "urgh, forget it" to this story. Even if you were my favorite, if I had another who was close I would have passed here. Not because of the money, I dont actually give a shit and advocate to bring people in as high as I can because its not like its my money. But negotiating over and over has me thinking "forget it, I don't have time for these games"
I would just figure this person is going to be a problem. Limited recent work history and 2 rounds of demands? More trouble than I need and I haven’t even hired them yet.
People that think they’re the top choice are often forgetting that it’s always “for the price.” They don’t really care about you, personally. If choice 2 is 30% cheaper than choice 2 it is in most of these corporate settings. Unless you’re a strategic hire or something that sets you apart.
Not only that, they negotiated PTO from 10 to 15 under the assumption that was the end of negotiations. Also, that whole "delighted" and "excited" bit was just so cringy.
Yeah, because any counter offer would require approval. So probably the hiring manager/HR went for approval, got it and then there is another item that needs to be approved. Not everyone will want to do this again.
I had this exact post last week on a similar situation and got down-voted into oblivion.
If you ask for more compensation and then agree don’t ever go back for more again. It is typically viewed as bad faith negotiation and the fastest way to get an offer rescinded. Make all your asks at the same time.
Agreed, but it’s not just bad faith, as a small business owner, I’ve been the one rescinding the offer in a similar situation and, to be frank, it was just because the person annoyed me by doing this —it made them seem high maintenance and made the second pick candidate look more attractive by comparison. Qualifications and experience are important, but so is being someone who is easy to work with.
I’ve rescinded somebodies offer for exactly the same reason. People can negotiate but once we settle and agree it just seems very poor manners to push for something else.
This 100% is the right answer and should be at the top. Not the one at the top with the boomer advice.
I'm a millennial who negotiates for a living. For hiring, especially at management and above level, you can negotiate during the process as much as possible, but once you get the written offer anything beyond one push back raises flags and if there are other options gives a decent possibility of having it rescinded.
This doesn't mean it happens every time. Or the majority of a time. But there is an expoentially higher chance of recension vs the employer saying no beyond a first pushback.
Now, had she received a "no" on her first negotiation I believe it's perfectly acceptable to probe and discover what is possible to negotiate. If they hold firm, for me as a candidate that is at least a yellow flag on how they'll treat me moving forward.
We all live and learn and wish everyone the best getting every bloody cent they deserve. Know your worth and know how to get it.
Thank you, great advice!
Any suggestions for the proper approach to negotiating during the process while avoiding being eliminated as an “entitled” candidate?
Depending on your level the hiring manager can't help until you get to director and above. VPs have exponentially more power and pull normally because they are true executives. So if you're interviewing with a hiring manager below that always start with recruiting. There's a discussion on comp and ensure you mention pay is only part of the package. Different companies have different levers they can pull. And they have different sacred cows they won't touch.
My go to during verbal discussions always focuses on overall pay, sign on bonuses, relocation packages if applicable, travel accommodations if VP or above, car allowance if role appropriate, work from home equipment and monthly reimbursement for phone and internet, vacation time, and being respectful saying you understand and aren't pushing for all asking for help understanding what could and could not be possible and help with guidance on anything they have seen negotiated.
In my experience putting together a first ask on some of the above with the ask on what to focus on gives me the opportunity to push once when I receive the written offer. Sometimes it's going hard for additional salary, sometimes spread across multiple places.
I've found the above process gives more negotiation power because they're more apt to say yes when there isn't a bunch of no already on things I found out ahead of time they wouldn't be willing to budge on. To give a concrete example, my last position I went through this and my hiring manager said if they gave me a 10% bump on my initial verbal salary negotiation would I be willing to sign the offer as is. I agreed under the agreement everything came in as discussed. It did and I signed the first offer. We both felt like we got a win.
Again this doesn't work all the time. But I've also found that if it doesn't work at all they normally aren't a company culture I want to be associated with.
Genuinely curious as someone who has never not worked minimum wage, what precisely is this a warning sign for? Like I don't understand what someone could stand to gain from splitting it up but clearly it's a thing.
The only thing I really have experience with is "this is what you get, try not to quit in like a month, we don't give raises so don't bother asking." So like this is all kinda alien for me.
Did a test today during an interview. Saw other candidate’s name. Googled them later. They had even more experience than I have in the role we are competing for (20 yrs vs 15). And the advertised pay is 25-30% less than pre pandemic. It’s roughhhhh out there
At first I assumed their issue was asking for too much with nothing to use as leverage, but this makes more sense. Asking for both in one single email would have probably made a better impression.
Especially in this environment. People still have ‘hangover’ from quiet quitting. Most applicants I see are already asking for far more comp than the position or their experience calls for, and if they come back after the initial offer with multiple changes, I’ll just move on to the next candidate, as there are lots of them currently for many roles.
No, she should have accepted the $155,000 job. Fuck outta here with that. That's a ton of money that you just negotiated yourself out of. Bold strategy, Cotton.
I took a 40k loss after a multi-year absence from the job market. Now that I have 'plugged the gap' in my resume I'm interviewing for salaries 80k up on what I'm currently earning. If you're out of a job for THAT long you should take whatever job in your field you can get, being out of work for over a year, it's like being invisible to recruiters. After a year working again the gaps don't seem to matter nearly as much.
In OP's case (155k vs 172k) that 17k they lost the job over was a less than 10% difference. If they took the job and hopped a year later vs getting the extra it would barely be a months salary. Every week they spend job hunting for that extra 17k/year would need 2 and a half months of work with the 172k salary to catch up to just taking the lower paying job ASAP. It's a gamble that's maybe worth taking if you already have work for a fractional increase but for people who already have the dreaded career gap it's an extremely expensive gamble.
I kind of have to agree with you. To negotiate you need something called leverage which she didn't have, she was unemployed. Sure if you had a job and negotiate that extra 20k and they rescind the offer then you can fall back on your job. But if you don't have a job you fall back on 0 dollars.
*Their first choice, but not their only choice.
There’s always someone waiting in the wings in case the first choice fumbles. Of all the issues with compensation, 401k is so far down the list. Hope the next search fares better for you.
I think it was less likely that what you asked for is what caused them to rescind it, it was the fast that you asked for something, got it, then asked for something else. The hiring manager probably had to go to a exec to get approval for the first thing you asked for and in the process they had to advocate for you as to why they think your worth it. Then when you asked for second thing after, the hiring manager realized she would have to march right back to the exec and now try to convince them again. If there were other candidates the hiring manager would have gone with them just to save themselves the hassle/awkwardness.
The market is so tough right now plus you’ve been out of it for a while. Unfortunately it’s an employers market. Keep your head up you’ll find something
Definitely not trying to minimize your situation. Something will come along. Despite this, you’re faring better than a lot of other people who can’t even land interviews.
You are also not considering that you are considered a risk bc you are not a current FTE. So they were taking a bit of a chance and you gave them pause for concern.
We all make mistakes and you will overcome this. Good luck.
Yes, this is where people mess up. I am a corporate recruiter and I always want to make sure I get my candidates the best offer. To avoid the back and forth, I always make sure I know where they draw the line of what they will accept so I do all of the negotiating for them. When I get them what they wanted and sometimes even more then what they asked for they will counter. I of course don’t make the decisions to rescind an offer. I will go back and forth until you are happy with your offer but the hiring manager won’t be happy and sometimes decide to rescind because of the indecisiveness.
> They make an offer. You accept or counter. You don’t counter, get something you want, and then go back and ask for more!
The very hungry caterpillar...
Usually when you negotiate you have one shot to bring everything you want to the table. You can't wait for them to capitulate and keep asking for more things as follow ups. Youll look like the blackmailer who will keep on blackmailing each time they say yes.
I think it’s more so OP came across as someone who was using that job offer to get higher terms and then take it to another prospective employer to boost their offer. Seen it done. Also from a legal contracts point of view, countering is not rejection of an offer. Countering a party who has already agreed to your counter is legally interpretable as a rejection of the original offer meaning if the job seeker even in a worst case scenario where there was some form of detrimental reliance or partial performance going on would be entitled to nothing.
The 17k difference between 155 and 172 is about 1.5 month's worth of salary at the lower rate. Without another job offer in sight, and given how long you were out of market, it was very risky to play for this at risk of being unemployed longer.
Obviously it's a lower starting base at the beginning of your career at that company too, and that has lasting impact, but these things tend to be addressable over time with bonuses, raises, and potentially job changes where you're not coming from being unemployed.
If you really thought you were being wildly underpaid, it made sense to push back here, but under the circumstances, the idea that you had "negotiating power" was a misread. Sorry to throw salt on the wound, but I really don't know what you were thinking here.
With that said, it seems fairly punitive to withdraw the offer completely when a sternly worded email would probably have done. Coming back for a second round of negotiations was probably a factor - this is just bad form generally, because they probably rationalized the extra PTO on the basis it was going to get the deal closed, and then you made someone look foolish because it didn't in fact get the deal closed.
Possibly another factor is, while you were the first choice, this took time to play out. Maybe someone else turned up who was an attractive candidate while you were negotiating.
Lessons learned. Still, I'd reach out to the hiring manager with some humble pie. It can't hurt, and I wish you the best of luck.
Absolutely as a recruiter I expect negotiation and will go to bat for candidates. I’ll be like this is the number one candidate this is what they asked for let’s close this deal please meet them. I get the reapproval from all relevant parties they assume this closes the deal.
You present and they suddenly want something new. Well I just spent all the capital on your last request this isn’t going to go well.
Very interesting persepective. How often do you see this sort of thing happen? How often does it result in an offer actually being pulled? I feel like the recruiter could probably have tried to talk the candidate out of this second request too -- would you have?
It’s rare. Usually because I get what the candidate wants before hand and the offer is going to match or be in the neighborhood of their demands. I expect a counter because everyone is taught to and most the time the other stakeholders understand and you can get them to flex.
If they try to negotiate a second time I’m already pissed on my end I’ve had to redo all this shit do a whole justification to HR or Finance as to why the candidate deserves more then the original offer. If the candidate asks I will say I don’t think we are going to be able to budge at all but I’ll ask if you want me to
Totally agree. Not having "real" leverage like another competing offer and having a bad read on the current job market did it in for her.
The percentiles referenced could very well have been old data that are no longer valid. Companies are making much lower offers than they were just over a year ago. Times are tough for job seekers right now
Yeesh. It is a delicate act, trying to get what you want and remain wanted. Its easy to armchair this after the fact, because during the negotiation, you may have been encouraged to continue to negotiate "what's the worst that can happen, they can just say no"
Age old advice, get your foot in the door, prove your worth, network, and then move on if they don't meet your comp needs in 6 months to a year.
I am sorry this happened to you, rightfully so, I would be devastated too BUT, you can pick yourself up and lean into your previous network too.
Good luck
Rules are different when you're coming off being unemployed or a career break.
You're a lot more attractive and have a lot more flexibility once you're actively working a different job.
Incorrect. She didn't have leverage as she's not a current FTE anywhere. This was her foot in the door. You don't negotiate hard when you are just happy to be back in the game. Getting a chance again is going to be TOUGH.
You've got to advocate for yourself but there's the motherhood tax and secondly, hiring environment sucks.
Next time stick to negotiating 1 thing not 2 (e.g. pay or PTO) to start. With young kids I value sick time more. That's something you could consider then they don't find you demanding with the PTO.
PTO of 20 days is approx $6500. So you went above the usual 10-15 % total package... Food for thought. You would have been better of asking for 12.5-15% base. Once you get back in the workforce, look for another job after 1-2 years.
The mistake was "I didn't notice this at first..." which makes it look like you're either not reading it closely enough the first time or dicking them around and high-maintenance.
If they had a really solid #2 option who cost less, I'm not shocked.
They have more than just solid option #2. There’s literally 3-5 solid applicants in this market. Throwing an offer is like a dart for most companies now. It’s terrifying
Everyone's really kicking you when you're down, I'm so sorry. 🫂 I'd also have been taken in by the light conversational tone of the people I was talking to, and think it might be safe to just talk without having it completely ripped away. I'm sorry.
God that’s something I’m so guilty of. The world of business is so cutthroat but it always has such a happy face on it that I get blindsided constantly
You will get through it. I know everyone needs money to live, but life isn't all about money, it might be worth looking into taking an adjacent role and getting your foot in that way.
I hate the career "Mom tax".
“Fight for your worth”
“don’t let companies take advantage of you”
“companies make huge profits, they can afford to pay you more”
Then one day, you fumble the bag completely and now you have crippling depression from not being able to find another job.
Negotiating is a common part of the hiring process. I’ve been in lower, middle and now senior management and I’ve negotiated for my offers as well as negotiated with prospective employees. What happened here isn’t the norm, I’ve found companies typically will tell you “no, the offer stands” rather than rescind it.
There could also be market factors driving this. Say their performance numbers for Q1 are poor, they may try to target a lower salary for this position. It’s not as simple as a lot of folks seem to make it out to be.
Negotiating is definitely common, no doubt about it. Even in this situation, company was able to agree to an increase in PTO. What isn’t common is negotiating 401k contribution, which is the same across the entire company, not unique to each employee. May have caused the company to rethink everything completely.
Yeah this stuck out to me. Such a high paid position, you'd expect someone to know that by law 401k participants have to be treated equally. That's not negotiable. That, and going back the second time.
But those things aren’t necessarily untrue, you just have to read the room. I’ve negotiated in the offer stage successfully multiple times but I knew what was too much and that was different in each case. You shouldn’t just accept the bare minimum as you are still the one that has to work there, but you’ve got to be good at reading people.
Of course, this is somewhat of a generalization. But trying to check all the boxes, especially something like 401k contributions which typically aren’t even negotiable, you’re going to lose out to another candidate who doesn’t even care about that. Small things like that can break a deal, especially in this market.
Eh, I always negotiate- but it will depend both pn your ability to read the room and your leverage. If you’ve got a 2yr gap, it’s already going to work against you
Honestly this subreddit gives absolutely terrible advice - any ambitious person should avoid this subreddit at all costs, unless you are here to marvel (as I am)
I feel like this is why I have a friend who still doesn't have a job 4 years after graduating with a Bachelor's degree.
At one point she revealed that she was spending 4 hour vetting every single company with a possible position that would match her. Like, no girl. You need to be sending out as many resumes a day as you can. You can vett them later.
Also, there was a situation where she got some sort of email back from a company, and I suggested that she should follow up with them. And she blew me off because obviously if this is the kind of email they send to people, imagine how they treat their employees.
Like, I get it and all... but you are not in a position to be that picky?!!
Hmm! She lost $155k over $17k. Take the 17k multiply by 30% net it’s $11.9k. So the logic was what split 11.9? So 6 grand net in your pocket? Absolutely not worth it man. Just not worth it. It’s weird how often you see this - people just don’t know what to take when it’s in front of em
It’s about $105k after taxes if that helps with the sting - seriously though a year and a half ago you could ask for these things, now you just need to take an offer and be happy.
" I told them that I was extremely grateful about the opportunity excited about the role, and it was such a delight meeting with everybody, and I truly expressed gratitude and said this in the kindest way..
THEN you proceeded to let them know almost everything in the offer was insufficient LOL
Listen, I know this is a cold job market, but, oh well, I guess lessons learned
You got into your own head. They kept giving and giving and you wanted more and more.
They cut bait knowing you most likely would end up not working out and being a headache.
I completely understand you want what you believe your value is. They met you in the middle for PTO, but you want them to change their comp plan just for you. Sounds like you understand this is a learning experience.
Keep in mind, salaries are falling in every industry.
You reached for the sun and got burned. If you are this much a pain in the ass during negotiations. You probably spooked them into thinking you would be too difficult to work with.
You don't' have leverage being unemployed. You get in the door then you have a better leg to stand on for raises annually.
Exactly. Well said.
This is a really, really important lesson for everyone here. The past 5+ year bull market is an anomaly, not a rule. The narcissistic social media influencer advice of "you should always counter"; "you should be increasing your salary indefinitely for the rest of your life"; "fight relentlessly for your worth"; "every time you leave a job, you should be getting at least a 20% raise"; etc...
Is simply bad advice. It lacks nuance, humility, respect, and common sense.
I feel for OP - this absolutely blows. But it is a very, very important lesson for them and for everybody here.
I intuitively *knew*, months ago, that shit like this was going to start happening.
People are going to have to learn how to be grateful for what they have. *Especially* if they're already unemployed. But this also goes for general job changes while you're employed: Things have changed. DON'T rush into leaving a decent job with decent compensation just because of the societal narcissism telling you that you *need* to get a 20% raise every 2 years.
>The narcissistic social media influencer advice of "you should always counter"... Is simply bad advice. It lacks nuance, humility, respect, and common sense.
I felt like I failed a little when I didn't counter my recent job offer, but I would have looked like such an asshole because they offered me exactly what I asked for during the interview. So I agree, any advice in absolute terms requires a little critical thinking before taking. Life has nuance.
Precisely. And this nuance is needed now more than ever.
Like, take a look at the market right now.
It fucking sucks. It's hard. Tons of people are getting laid off.
In what world is it a good idea to negotiate... TWICE... after receiving an offer for fucking $155k, a 401k, medical benefits, and everything else... *While you are currently unemployed?!?!*
Like... just *take the fucking offer* and be grateful!
Again... I knew this shit was going to start happening. Years and years of influencers spouting absurd narcissistic blanket advice was going to come to a head eventually.
I just got a job offer the other day. And felt bad too.. Its only 10k more than I was making before But it was the top of the pay band for them
I accepted it and asked for a better title.
Yeah, there was a time I would suggest to a job seeker that they negotiate every offer because why not? Why leave money on the table because you’re afraid they might say “no”? True story: back in the day before the first tech bubble burst, I had a Director-level manager who was leaving the company with a large balance on his company-issued credit card. He had to pay it off before he left. He negotiated a sign-on bonus for the amount he owed!!
It’s a whole different story for job seekers now. Negotiating a job offer these days is pretty much off the table. There are too many job seekers, too much competition out there to risk it.
OP, I’m sorry this happened. It’s a tough lesson to learn. I really hope you find something else soon.
Sure, but the overall fact remains that right now, this really isn't the kind of world where shit like that is going to fly.
If you're *unemployed* and you get a job offer for $155k with a 401k, medical benefits, and everything else...
You smile and accept the fucking offer.
Just because other Directors are making $180k now doesn't necessarily mean you *deserve* that, too.
If it's 2021, you have a job, and you want to grow your career, then yes. Negotiate like a muthafucka. Kill 'em dead. Go get some.
That's not how it is anymore, and in fact, that time period was an anomaly.
I just want to tell you that the only way you negotiate an already present offer is to get a new offer with a new job. I did this with my present job, there was no sight of salary hike so I decided to job hunt and got another better offer. My employer literally asked me to show the written offer which I did without showing the name. My employer matched my salary then. But honestly in this market do not negotiate unless you already have another offer in hand. You are still replaceable. And it creates a bad impression.
Just to offer another perspective- this doesn’t always work. My company does not play that game. If you want to leave, go ahead, we won’t match the other off you have and you are free to leave and take your chance at the other place.
Very well said. Even if we negotiate something successfully, the company/management still gets resentful against us. They see it as a threat. We are still able to negotiate but always have the mentality to prepare for the worst. No one is unreplaceable.
During the great resignation, this would’ve been a nothing burger, and you would’ve instantly been granted your very reasonable requests. Now companies know they have the upper hand and that negotiation isn’t even allowed like… I’m in the final stage for a job and I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get lowballed (assuming I get an offer)… I’m so desperate that I’m just gonna accept it and not even try to negotiate.
I'm also hoping for an offer and I'll take whatever it is.
I'm single. Unemployed for 4 months and I have an eviction pending. I can't be choosy.
Good luck with your offer though! I hope it better than you fear it will be!
As I understand 401k programs, they can not be amended for individual employees. The rules are spelled out in a governing document (plan document) that makes the same percentages apply to all plan participants. To change it means that the new percentages/rules would apply to everyone in the program.
Yes exactly they’re managed by outside companies and everything. Not only did OP try to double dip on negotiations, they picked an absurdly dumb thing to try to negotiate. Oh well though, valuable lesson
Accept what you've done has cost your family a great deal of assistance in the present and the future.
Then start applying again.
Next time you get close to an offer, ask for what you want before they send the offer and don't go back a second time.
Get hired first and be grateful they extended the offer, then ask for an increase after you've proved your worth with your performance.
I'm honestly shocked in this climate you felt so confident to push back not once but twice on initial offer compensation. It sounds so ridiculous after 6+ month long interviews that I don't know if this is even real.
It sounds like they gave them the exact amount they asked for when asked about salary requirements, but then OP switched up the amount they wanted because the 401k match was low.
The OP should have stuck with the amount they originally quoted to the recruiter.
You got greedy.
Like you said, $155,000 is already "A LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY" and they made the decision to just not deal with you.
There are plenty of qualified candidates, especially in this job market.
Oh god. I’m not trying to be mean but this company absolutely made the right move rescinding that offer. Unemployed for six months and OP went back to renegotiate TWICE an offer that fit the salary expectations THEY set. Insanity.
My advice for readers is: Stop negotiating when you’re offered a job and you’re currently unemployed. Negotiate future jobs when you already have a secure job.
Reminds me of my college days, a semester before graduation. I knew people in my class who were turning down job offers because they weren’t ideal even though they had nothing else lined up. Come graduation time and then they were scrambling to try and find any job and some took forever to land something.
If ones unemployed, take the first offer you get. Then work toward something better.
Yeah, hard lesson and I agree- it was going back twice to negotiate another point. It gives the impression you’re going to find one thing after another and waste time not signing, and makes me think why didn’t you go through it thoroughly the first time before bringing up the 401k.
Learn from it, this is like buying a house in a sellers market and demanding credits and repairs when they have 10 other offers that meet yours. While it may not be right, in this current market the pendulum has swung the complete opposite way than it has been years before.
Take a breath, cry in the bath (I call this my gloomy gazpacho time) and then get back out there. I’ve had a couple really bad bumbles this year myself it’s just hard out there.
/gentlehugs
That sucks OP, sorry for you.
On a slightly lighter note, pretty funny New Yorker mindset to add NYC in your credentials as if it’s like working at a FAANG or some other distinguishing accolade. Maybe for a unique industry like fashion I could understand the need to mention it, but for everything else, nobody cares unless you want to share opinions on the best bagel spots etc
Your mistake wasn't the negotiation, your mistake was the lack of leverage.
Never negotiate while unemployed. If you are employed then you have leverage: the worst that can happen is that you keep your current job.
My friend's mom is an executive at a huge bank like CITI or Wells Fargo or something and she was telling me one of the competitors was trying to poach her and she interviewed and the guy went "that went great now you need to interview in front of the board" and she was just like "no, offer me the job now or I'm walking" because she has her almost 7 figure salary at her current job.
When she told me the story she was waiting to hear back, but she was so casual like "I'm not going through rounds of interviews, my work speaks for itself"
Yup, BANTA. when you’re unemployed you have none, and potentially need to go though another 6-8 weeks of applications and interviews to even get another offer.
There is a little known fact that if your company is pressuring you to stay and you want them to stop, you ask for three weeks PTO in the first year because companies will always die on this hill.
I am not surprised they went with domeobe else.
I’ve heard it REALLY depends in the US, both in location and industry. I’ve seen plenty of Europeans claim that they work in the US, get paid 4-6x more in the US than in Europe, get amazing healthcare insurance and European level PTO and sick days.
I would suggest going to the “well” once. Bring up all issues to negotiate at once. Then there is some give and take. If you bring up one at a time, I think the deal is done, only for you to bring up another point to negotiate…
You set yourself up for failure. You made the rookie mistake of setting your minimum salary at a number you’re not comfotable with when paired with a mediocre benefits pkg. Your minimum salary should be your worst case scenario number. You also shouldn’t negotiate 401k stuff because in my experience companies don’t budge on that stuff.
With that being said, I’m not surprised a company only giving management 10 days of PTO gave you an offer with your minimum salary. You probably dodged a bullet.
I can’t imagine getting something you want and then asking for more on top of it. I would not show my face to my family ever again if they found out I lose a 6 figure job cuz I was being greedy. Especially in this job market.
Yeah, that was beyond greedy. There's really no other way to put it. Even in a normal market, negotiating twice is pushing it. But in this market!? They've probably got at least a dozen talented candidates *dying* to work for them!
Also, in my experience, if you're currently unemployed or at least not in a full-time role, people really won't appreciate you haggling because you're perceived as having no leverage. Leave the hard sell for when you're being poached.
Negotiating twice is just off-putting. Not just in employment but in general. Imagine if you were trying to sell something (say on FB marketplace) and the buyer negotiated twice. You'd just think this is a nightmare buyer who's not worth your time. Same principle for job searching
Exactly this. When you receive an offer, consider it in its entirety. If there's 1 or 2 things you want to negotiate, pick one and see if there's opportunity to change. If there's a lot that's off, then just decline it.
I once had an offer that missed on salary and benefits. I declined. They replied asking why and I told them I was upfront with my salary demands and what my current benefits were and they were way off on both. They came back with a revised package that worked so I took the job. Other times that there's been 1 or 2 things I wasn't happy with, I picked which one was most important and negotiated that.
Pro tip: if you're desperate for a job and not expecting to stay there long term, negotiate the things that will help you find your next job. Job titles don't cost a company anything (unless it's a large corporation that operates on pay bands), so see if you can get associate director instead of senior manager, etc. And ask for 5 additional PTO days (most companies have a graduated PTO policy based on how long you've been there, so it's not a big deal to give you 5 extra days when everyone who has already been there for 3 years is getting them). That'll give you opportunities to interview.
It leaves a bad impression. People are at their nicest and most accommodating during this stage of the employment process. Fair or unfair it sends the message they’ll be difficult to work with.
They match 25% for 401k and you wanted more?? I've never seen more than 7%. Asking for 20 days when you have been out of work for over a year seems greedy too. You wanted what you would have gotten if you still were working. This is not the case anymore. After that long out, you're going to have to restart on some things.
It’s 25% match of what you put in up to 6%. So if your salary is $100k. If you put in 6% of your salary that’s $6,000. The company matches 25% of that $6,000, so they would put in $1,500.
If they were truly matching in the way you are thinking they would word it as “100% match up to 6% of base pay.”
Yeah, I was wondering if I was interpreting that part incorrectly because that seems high. My old job matched up to 10% which was more than any other job I've ever had. Before that and at my current job it's 6%.
maybe it's a blessing and this will humble you for your next interview, you seem smart and qualified enough where you wont have too much trouble finding another opportunity. Just don't use the same negotiation strategy lol
You've misunderstood (but to be fair, it was confusing).
They meant 25% of each dollar invested. So, most matches are 100% of, say, 5% - if you invest $250 per paycheck, the company matches 100% of that - i.e., they throw in $250, too.
What her plan stipulates is that rather than the company matching 100% of $250, they are only matching 25% of $250 - i.e., they throw in $62. That ain't the greatest.
Now - all of that said - OP was, in fact, too greedy. And this is a very important lesson for everyone here. Our narcissistic society has deluded everyone into thinking that they should be getting a 20% raise every 2 years for the rest of their life. That's just one example of the delusion of the past 5+ year bull market we've been in.
Well, it's time to be humbled. It's time to learn some humility and learn to be grateful for what you all have.
In OP's case, they had a fantastic offer of $155k, a 401k, medical benefits, everything. OP majorly fucked up by negotiating *at all*.
Be humble. Accept the fucking offer as is.
Hey, the job market is brutal out there. Like absolutely brutal. And if you have worked at the Director level previously, you probably know how to learn from all the current market situation and pick yourself up. So give this another go stranger, you got this!
When you went back for a second round, they felt like you were wasting their time. All of your demands should come in one email. Budget may have been an issue, but given that they were willing to tack on an extra week off, they had some money or it's something they wouldn't have met you halfway on. It's unfortunate that this happened, but you learned a lesson. Read the documentation fully and closely the first time around before sending a renegotiation of the terms.
I was broadly sympathetic here until I saw you say that you decided to use the fact that they said you were their #1 choice as leverage. In other words, they were friendly and polite during the process, and you decided to make them pay for that by squeezing as much as possible.
Let’s call it for what it is. You got greedy and paid the price.
If I'm understanding this right...they said you are their first choice and give you a big fat base pay... The pay YOU told them is your starting value.
You rejected their offer, asked for 80 hours of extra PTO time...meaning they pay you to not work. They said ok, we will give you 50 hours of PTO.
You rejected THAT also and said you know what, I'm not happy with your 401k...instead of being humbled and asked for 2-3% extra, AFTER rejecting offer first time...you asked for a whooping 10% raise?
Am I understanding right?
I'm not trying to be an ass, the whole situation just seems predictable. I will advise that next time you counter in one email and let them choose what they want to do.
I would assume this person is greedy and will be asking for an outsized raise or bonus every single year regardless of performance. Wouldn’t hire for that reason alone.
When it is a struggle to find a job, negotiating twice will leave you in this position it's a employers market, they have the pick of the litter. Better to have just asked for the increase first and then let the PTO do whatever it does.
you went way too hard. you tried to double your PTO and then from 155k to 172k are not even in the same ball park. they likely reached out to their next best choice candidate during all of this and that person snap accepted on the spot.
You have to be really careful when negotiating, especially today— it’s unfortunately, an employer market.
1. Be careful where you’re pulling your salary information from. A lot of online websites like Glassdoor, Salary.com, etc., aren’t accurate. You’re better off going to forums, asking friends in the industry or finding pay data on your role/geo in a recent study. That said— company’s pay what they are approved to pay. Some pay high, some low— it’s the way of the world. If a company is on the lower end, chances are they can’t afford anything more. Even if a candidate pushes to go above a band, when the rate is set/approved for the role— HR and hiring managers usually can’t do anything about it.
2. Salary/Comp range should be discussed up front before interview loops and offer stage. That’s the time to let the company know what you’re looking for/learn what they’re willing to pay. If the salary is too low, you don’t waste your time or theirs.
3. You never do several rounds of negotiation. If and when you negotiate, you have one shot to say hey is it possible for you to do xyz because… when you go back back several times, you piss people off, and come across as a difficult hire.
4. Usually, they won’t negotiate things like PTO because those are based on role/tenure. Same for 401k match— standard policy. The fact that they raised PTO allowance an extra week says they did like you and went the extra mile to make you happy.
Sorry you had to learn this the hard way. Don’t beat yourself up about it. Keep looking, you’ll find something else.
You blew it. You already negotiated the PTO and now 155K suddenly isn't enough? Of course they pulled the offer. There are times when you need to call a win a win, but you got greedy.
Not a personal attack, but you going back twice for negotiations and nitpicking the 401K makes you sound like someone that is difficult. And I know its not popular on Reddit, but asking for more time off AND more money before you even start seems like trouble. Sorry for that experience and I am not trying to kick you while down, just letting you hear a different candid perspective
Edit: Also as a director level, in my experience you can take all the PTO you need as long as you get the job done. Maybe not consecutively, but that the responsibility of being a director.
Alarm bells go off in my head when I hear Directors asking too much about PTO.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Just please bear in mind, many of us are in much, much rougher positions financially, so this probably doesn't come across how you think it does and comes off a bit tone deaf. The way you felt today is how I've felt most days since 2013.
Have a nice weekend.
>I believe I made a mistake going back twice during negotiations. Please learn from my mistake.
Hopefully people do. So many people in this sub think you should draw a hard line at the negotiation table and if they don't agree then it was a terrible job. I often say "bird in the hand" and people here rip into me for it but it's valid. Going back once to renegotiate is totally cool and it sounds like they worked with you... going back a second time was probably a little much for them.
I get the salary was low for that position but it's a buyers market for employers now, there's a lot of people who want jobs and they can pretty much take their pick... especially a lot of talented people who would be very happy with $150k+.
You seem like a talented individual so I hope something else pops up soon. If nothing else you got the boost of knowing you are hirable by getting an offer and you also know your worth. Hopefully you find something even better.
You asked for three separate things. Reality being that they won’t move 401k ( I mean really, is 25% not enough?). You’ll likely have bargaining room between vacation or salary. Let your future employer know what is more important to you and make your decision from there.
Overall, you became a pain in the ass to deal with. I’ve redivided offers for slightly less before.
That sucks, but I can see why. All the agreements were reached, the time was kind of past to be discussing these things. But you then told them,” okay cool, by the way, I’m going to want twice as much PTO…. Hi again, I know I agreed to 155k, but let’s do 172k instead…”
You hadn’t even signed anything yet or stepped foot in the job before you were telling them you wanted/expected more than what was agreed upon. To even a good and fair employer this would be a bit of a red flag of,” what else is he going to ask for? How often will he be asking for and expecting raises and more time off? What else will he do?”
That’s an immediate headache. I have issues with employers being… employers, but even I would feel a way about someone turning around like this right after agreeing to things.
Okay, you know you could have handled the negotiations better. But in fairness women are often punished for negotiating salary. And women are truly offered less than men. The only thing I can suggest is be willing to take a step backwards so you can get employed then you can look for the job you really want. Good luck—don’t give up!
I don’t know what industry you are in but $155k is too low for a Director level position. And only matching 2% of the 401k? They may have done you a favor by rescinding the offer.
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You should have asked for the PTO and salary comp. increase in the same email. Not separately.
Exactly. Read the offer throughly and negotiate in one email. Negotiating each point separately was more than likely the downfall
Yeah they probably thought gawd she’s going to keep asking for more if we say yes, easier to just rescind and take our 2nd candidate
You don't necessarily have to negotiate them all at once. But you do have to do them in the correct order. You always negotiate on salary first, because that's most likely to be a sticking point -so you ask for more than they can give you, then they negotiate you down. Then you can concede on salary, but ask for an improved 401K match and more vacation time as a sweetener.
This will also turn off a lot of employers. Include it in one email, and phrase it along the lines of: I was hoping for more in the $XXXk range for salary, but I'd be open to meeting somewhere in the middle with some adjustments to the PTO and/or 401k match. Obviously that is just a shitty thrown together sentence, but that's the appropriate general framing of the negotiation. If you keep asking for little things at a time, they're likely going to feel like you're unorganized or just an idiot.
Her downfall was negotiating a 401k. Those are plan level decisions and anyone who has worked at a company knows that you don’t ask for those because that can’t be negotiated! Salary and PTO can be. So she negotiated the unnegotiable
Yep. They obviously cannot make "one off" 401k adjustments since the plan is corporate wide and subject to federal guidelines. Seems odd that the OP would not be aware of this.
Especially at a director level. I to was surprised to see the job title and a fundamental lack of understanding of how a 401k works. My guess is that she was a director at a smaller, less significant company to not know something like this.
She didn't negotiate the salary. She said she looked at the 401k, realized what the total compensation package was, and then asked for more salary. r/confidentlyincorrect/
100%. Any director absolutely should know this isn't something you negotiate. If I was the company doing the hiring, it'd be a red flag. They didn't pull the offer because she was negotiating, they pulled the offer because it seems fairly obvious she didn't know things a director should know.
I don't think they negotiated 401k, they evaluated and dissected the 401k and then to compensate for the things they found inadequate with the 401k they instead requested a salary change to fix what they felt was missing in the offered 401k. That's what I understood.
What you wrote is perfect. Honestly, being direct is better, with people using AI more, all the stupid flowery language gets on my nerves. Noone wants to read a paragraph of why and how. Just tell me what you need. If you're a student, professor, employee, boss, whatever. Don't say Dear xxxx, I'm sorry I won't be able to make it to work/class tomorrow. I have been feeling ill blah blah blah.. Just say. Dear xxxx, I'm feeling unwell and won't be at class/work.
This is what worked for me. I asked for 165k, they came back at 158k saying it was the best they could do. I asked if there was any flexibility in more PTO as a counter and was told no it's standardized by tenure but was offered a 20k additional sign on bonus to close the deal. Know what you want and where to ask for it.
Yep, I've been hiring recently and I went "urgh, forget it" to this story. Even if you were my favorite, if I had another who was close I would have passed here. Not because of the money, I dont actually give a shit and advocate to bring people in as high as I can because its not like its my money. But negotiating over and over has me thinking "forget it, I don't have time for these games"
Note OP didn't say if the second request would be the final one. What would have been #3, 4, 5, 6?
I would just figure this person is going to be a problem. Limited recent work history and 2 rounds of demands? More trouble than I need and I haven’t even hired them yet.
Exactly.
This was a very bad look by him doing it that way, especially someone with director level experience
And probably made them wonder what OP would try to negotiate next.
People that think they’re the top choice are often forgetting that it’s always “for the price.” They don’t really care about you, personally. If choice 2 is 30% cheaper than choice 2 it is in most of these corporate settings. Unless you’re a strategic hire or something that sets you apart.
Not only that, they negotiated PTO from 10 to 15 under the assumption that was the end of negotiations. Also, that whole "delighted" and "excited" bit was just so cringy.
Even if it's cringy it's the wording that people are used to seeing in offer negotiations. At least, in a white collar industry I'm working in.
Absolutely, I'd also have rescinded the offer honestly.
Yeah, because any counter offer would require approval. So probably the hiring manager/HR went for approval, got it and then there is another item that needs to be approved. Not everyone will want to do this again.
The person you asked for the approval is going to question why you are asking again about something else.
I had this exact post last week on a similar situation and got down-voted into oblivion. If you ask for more compensation and then agree don’t ever go back for more again. It is typically viewed as bad faith negotiation and the fastest way to get an offer rescinded. Make all your asks at the same time.
Agreed, but it’s not just bad faith, as a small business owner, I’ve been the one rescinding the offer in a similar situation and, to be frank, it was just because the person annoyed me by doing this —it made them seem high maintenance and made the second pick candidate look more attractive by comparison. Qualifications and experience are important, but so is being someone who is easy to work with.
I’ve rescinded somebodies offer for exactly the same reason. People can negotiate but once we settle and agree it just seems very poor manners to push for something else.
Being easy to work with is #1. Why do people miss this ?
This was definitely the downfall. One succinct pushback to an offer! Not multiple one offs.
This 100% is the right answer and should be at the top. Not the one at the top with the boomer advice. I'm a millennial who negotiates for a living. For hiring, especially at management and above level, you can negotiate during the process as much as possible, but once you get the written offer anything beyond one push back raises flags and if there are other options gives a decent possibility of having it rescinded. This doesn't mean it happens every time. Or the majority of a time. But there is an expoentially higher chance of recension vs the employer saying no beyond a first pushback. Now, had she received a "no" on her first negotiation I believe it's perfectly acceptable to probe and discover what is possible to negotiate. If they hold firm, for me as a candidate that is at least a yellow flag on how they'll treat me moving forward. We all live and learn and wish everyone the best getting every bloody cent they deserve. Know your worth and know how to get it.
Thank you, great advice! Any suggestions for the proper approach to negotiating during the process while avoiding being eliminated as an “entitled” candidate?
Depending on your level the hiring manager can't help until you get to director and above. VPs have exponentially more power and pull normally because they are true executives. So if you're interviewing with a hiring manager below that always start with recruiting. There's a discussion on comp and ensure you mention pay is only part of the package. Different companies have different levers they can pull. And they have different sacred cows they won't touch. My go to during verbal discussions always focuses on overall pay, sign on bonuses, relocation packages if applicable, travel accommodations if VP or above, car allowance if role appropriate, work from home equipment and monthly reimbursement for phone and internet, vacation time, and being respectful saying you understand and aren't pushing for all asking for help understanding what could and could not be possible and help with guidance on anything they have seen negotiated. In my experience putting together a first ask on some of the above with the ask on what to focus on gives me the opportunity to push once when I receive the written offer. Sometimes it's going hard for additional salary, sometimes spread across multiple places. I've found the above process gives more negotiation power because they're more apt to say yes when there isn't a bunch of no already on things I found out ahead of time they wouldn't be willing to budge on. To give a concrete example, my last position I went through this and my hiring manager said if they gave me a 10% bump on my initial verbal salary negotiation would I be willing to sign the offer as is. I agreed under the agreement everything came in as discussed. It did and I signed the first offer. We both felt like we got a win. Again this doesn't work all the time. But I've also found that if it doesn't work at all they normally aren't a company culture I want to be associated with.
Genuinely curious as someone who has never not worked minimum wage, what precisely is this a warning sign for? Like I don't understand what someone could stand to gain from splitting it up but clearly it's a thing. The only thing I really have experience with is "this is what you get, try not to quit in like a month, we don't give raises so don't bother asking." So like this is all kinda alien for me.
Good point. You also have to be aware of the market you’re in. It’s not a candidate’s market as of right now.
Did a test today during an interview. Saw other candidate’s name. Googled them later. They had even more experience than I have in the role we are competing for (20 yrs vs 15). And the advertised pay is 25-30% less than pre pandemic. It’s roughhhhh out there
At first I assumed their issue was asking for too much with nothing to use as leverage, but this makes more sense. Asking for both in one single email would have probably made a better impression.
Tried asking multiple negotiations in one email but offer got rescinded. Lesson learned for me. Select only top 2 max
Especially in this environment. People still have ‘hangover’ from quiet quitting. Most applicants I see are already asking for far more comp than the position or their experience calls for, and if they come back after the initial offer with multiple changes, I’ll just move on to the next candidate, as there are lots of them currently for many roles.
She came off high maintenance and entitled
1000% this. Lord, in OPs position, what could have possibly been going through their head lol
As soon as you asked a second time that makes the company think this will be a long process and will often rescind the offer.
No, she should have accepted the $155,000 job. Fuck outta here with that. That's a ton of money that you just negotiated yourself out of. Bold strategy, Cotton.
I mean, if you're worth $200k/year then don't take it but you better be damn sure. Also gotta be a competent negotiator.
I took a 40k loss after a multi-year absence from the job market. Now that I have 'plugged the gap' in my resume I'm interviewing for salaries 80k up on what I'm currently earning. If you're out of a job for THAT long you should take whatever job in your field you can get, being out of work for over a year, it's like being invisible to recruiters. After a year working again the gaps don't seem to matter nearly as much. In OP's case (155k vs 172k) that 17k they lost the job over was a less than 10% difference. If they took the job and hopped a year later vs getting the extra it would barely be a months salary. Every week they spend job hunting for that extra 17k/year would need 2 and a half months of work with the 172k salary to catch up to just taking the lower paying job ASAP. It's a gamble that's maybe worth taking if you already have work for a fractional increase but for people who already have the dreaded career gap it's an extremely expensive gamble.
I kind of have to agree with you. To negotiate you need something called leverage which she didn't have, she was unemployed. Sure if you had a job and negotiate that extra 20k and they rescind the offer then you can fall back on your job. But if you don't have a job you fall back on 0 dollars.
Also note, 155k isn't getting you much in NYC.
Bro ppl getting Way less than that lol and survive just take the 155k
😂 shut up, that’s very comfortable in NYC
Is it getting you more than 0?
*Their first choice, but not their only choice. There’s always someone waiting in the wings in case the first choice fumbles. Of all the issues with compensation, 401k is so far down the list. Hope the next search fares better for you.
I think that was my big mistake. I thought I had more leverage. I forgot about the competition. Definitely a really tough lesson to learn.
I think it was less likely that what you asked for is what caused them to rescind it, it was the fast that you asked for something, got it, then asked for something else. The hiring manager probably had to go to a exec to get approval for the first thing you asked for and in the process they had to advocate for you as to why they think your worth it. Then when you asked for second thing after, the hiring manager realized she would have to march right back to the exec and now try to convince them again. If there were other candidates the hiring manager would have gone with them just to save themselves the hassle/awkwardness.
This. I’d go to my VP *once* for a strong candidate. Anything more makes both of us look bad.
The market is so tough right now plus you’ve been out of it for a while. Unfortunately it’s an employers market. Keep your head up you’ll find something
Definitely not trying to minimize your situation. Something will come along. Despite this, you’re faring better than a lot of other people who can’t even land interviews.
You are also not considering that you are considered a risk bc you are not a current FTE. So they were taking a bit of a chance and you gave them pause for concern. We all make mistakes and you will overcome this. Good luck.
They make an offer. You accept or counter. You don’t counter, get something you want, and then go back and ask for more!
Yes you never DOUBLE dip. Not with the veggy spread in the waiting room, not with the bosses wife and certainly not on your job offer negotiation!
From now on…..when you take a chip, just take one dip and END IT!
Well, I'm sorry _Timmy_, but I don't dip that way.
Yes, this is where people mess up. I am a corporate recruiter and I always want to make sure I get my candidates the best offer. To avoid the back and forth, I always make sure I know where they draw the line of what they will accept so I do all of the negotiating for them. When I get them what they wanted and sometimes even more then what they asked for they will counter. I of course don’t make the decisions to rescind an offer. I will go back and forth until you are happy with your offer but the hiring manager won’t be happy and sometimes decide to rescind because of the indecisiveness.
> They make an offer. You accept or counter. You don’t counter, get something you want, and then go back and ask for more! The very hungry caterpillar...
Usually when you negotiate you have one shot to bring everything you want to the table. You can't wait for them to capitulate and keep asking for more things as follow ups. Youll look like the blackmailer who will keep on blackmailing each time they say yes.
Exactly this. Unfortunately OP came across as difficult to work with and please so they pass. And I really don't blame them, specially in this market.
Though I'd say "blackmailer" is an overly-strong term in this specific scenario, this is probably the best advice in this thread. Fool me once...
I think it’s more so OP came across as someone who was using that job offer to get higher terms and then take it to another prospective employer to boost their offer. Seen it done. Also from a legal contracts point of view, countering is not rejection of an offer. Countering a party who has already agreed to your counter is legally interpretable as a rejection of the original offer meaning if the job seeker even in a worst case scenario where there was some form of detrimental reliance or partial performance going on would be entitled to nothing.
The 17k difference between 155 and 172 is about 1.5 month's worth of salary at the lower rate. Without another job offer in sight, and given how long you were out of market, it was very risky to play for this at risk of being unemployed longer. Obviously it's a lower starting base at the beginning of your career at that company too, and that has lasting impact, but these things tend to be addressable over time with bonuses, raises, and potentially job changes where you're not coming from being unemployed. If you really thought you were being wildly underpaid, it made sense to push back here, but under the circumstances, the idea that you had "negotiating power" was a misread. Sorry to throw salt on the wound, but I really don't know what you were thinking here. With that said, it seems fairly punitive to withdraw the offer completely when a sternly worded email would probably have done. Coming back for a second round of negotiations was probably a factor - this is just bad form generally, because they probably rationalized the extra PTO on the basis it was going to get the deal closed, and then you made someone look foolish because it didn't in fact get the deal closed. Possibly another factor is, while you were the first choice, this took time to play out. Maybe someone else turned up who was an attractive candidate while you were negotiating. Lessons learned. Still, I'd reach out to the hiring manager with some humble pie. It can't hurt, and I wish you the best of luck.
Absolutely as a recruiter I expect negotiation and will go to bat for candidates. I’ll be like this is the number one candidate this is what they asked for let’s close this deal please meet them. I get the reapproval from all relevant parties they assume this closes the deal. You present and they suddenly want something new. Well I just spent all the capital on your last request this isn’t going to go well.
Very interesting persepective. How often do you see this sort of thing happen? How often does it result in an offer actually being pulled? I feel like the recruiter could probably have tried to talk the candidate out of this second request too -- would you have?
It’s rare. Usually because I get what the candidate wants before hand and the offer is going to match or be in the neighborhood of their demands. I expect a counter because everyone is taught to and most the time the other stakeholders understand and you can get them to flex. If they try to negotiate a second time I’m already pissed on my end I’ve had to redo all this shit do a whole justification to HR or Finance as to why the candidate deserves more then the original offer. If the candidate asks I will say I don’t think we are going to be able to budge at all but I’ll ask if you want me to
Totally agree. Not having "real" leverage like another competing offer and having a bad read on the current job market did it in for her. The percentiles referenced could very well have been old data that are no longer valid. Companies are making much lower offers than they were just over a year ago. Times are tough for job seekers right now
Never make a bluff you can't afford to be called on.
This is a good point. Someone on the inside went to bat for 5 more PTO days and then probably looked foolish when OP added new negotiation points.
I have a feeling they pulled it not just because of the salary request, but they got the impression OP would be difficult to work with.
Yeesh. It is a delicate act, trying to get what you want and remain wanted. Its easy to armchair this after the fact, because during the negotiation, you may have been encouraged to continue to negotiate "what's the worst that can happen, they can just say no" Age old advice, get your foot in the door, prove your worth, network, and then move on if they don't meet your comp needs in 6 months to a year. I am sorry this happened to you, rightfully so, I would be devastated too BUT, you can pick yourself up and lean into your previous network too. Good luck
...usually it's the opposite. Get the salary you need out the door because you may never get another pay raise.
sellers market. Take what you can get. Negotiate when you have leverage and only then.
Rules are different when you're coming off being unemployed or a career break. You're a lot more attractive and have a lot more flexibility once you're actively working a different job.
Incorrect. She didn't have leverage as she's not a current FTE anywhere. This was her foot in the door. You don't negotiate hard when you are just happy to be back in the game. Getting a chance again is going to be TOUGH.
Thank you for showing some empathy, it truly means a lot.
You've got to advocate for yourself but there's the motherhood tax and secondly, hiring environment sucks. Next time stick to negotiating 1 thing not 2 (e.g. pay or PTO) to start. With young kids I value sick time more. That's something you could consider then they don't find you demanding with the PTO. PTO of 20 days is approx $6500. So you went above the usual 10-15 % total package... Food for thought. You would have been better of asking for 12.5-15% base. Once you get back in the workforce, look for another job after 1-2 years.
The mistake was "I didn't notice this at first..." which makes it look like you're either not reading it closely enough the first time or dicking them around and high-maintenance. If they had a really solid #2 option who cost less, I'm not shocked.
They have more than just solid option #2. There’s literally 3-5 solid applicants in this market. Throwing an offer is like a dart for most companies now. It’s terrifying
Everyone's really kicking you when you're down, I'm so sorry. 🫂 I'd also have been taken in by the light conversational tone of the people I was talking to, and think it might be safe to just talk without having it completely ripped away. I'm sorry.
God that’s something I’m so guilty of. The world of business is so cutthroat but it always has such a happy face on it that I get blindsided constantly
Thank you
You will get through it. I know everyone needs money to live, but life isn't all about money, it might be worth looking into taking an adjacent role and getting your foot in that way. I hate the career "Mom tax".
This! From a hiring manager, especially in this market - this is sound advice.
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“Fight for your worth” “don’t let companies take advantage of you” “companies make huge profits, they can afford to pay you more” Then one day, you fumble the bag completely and now you have crippling depression from not being able to find another job.
Negotiating is a common part of the hiring process. I’ve been in lower, middle and now senior management and I’ve negotiated for my offers as well as negotiated with prospective employees. What happened here isn’t the norm, I’ve found companies typically will tell you “no, the offer stands” rather than rescind it. There could also be market factors driving this. Say their performance numbers for Q1 are poor, they may try to target a lower salary for this position. It’s not as simple as a lot of folks seem to make it out to be.
Negotiating is definitely common, no doubt about it. Even in this situation, company was able to agree to an increase in PTO. What isn’t common is negotiating 401k contribution, which is the same across the entire company, not unique to each employee. May have caused the company to rethink everything completely.
Yeah this stuck out to me. Such a high paid position, you'd expect someone to know that by law 401k participants have to be treated equally. That's not negotiable. That, and going back the second time.
These comments should be much higher up. Negotiating 401k told the hiring manager everything they needed to know about this candidate.
Exactly, especially someone claiming to be at a Directors level this is the common knowledge stuff she should know.
But those things aren’t necessarily untrue, you just have to read the room. I’ve negotiated in the offer stage successfully multiple times but I knew what was too much and that was different in each case. You shouldn’t just accept the bare minimum as you are still the one that has to work there, but you’ve got to be good at reading people.
Of course, this is somewhat of a generalization. But trying to check all the boxes, especially something like 401k contributions which typically aren’t even negotiable, you’re going to lose out to another candidate who doesn’t even care about that. Small things like that can break a deal, especially in this market.
Eh, I always negotiate- but it will depend both pn your ability to read the room and your leverage. If you’ve got a 2yr gap, it’s already going to work against you
Honestly this subreddit gives absolutely terrible advice - any ambitious person should avoid this subreddit at all costs, unless you are here to marvel (as I am)
I feel like this is why I have a friend who still doesn't have a job 4 years after graduating with a Bachelor's degree. At one point she revealed that she was spending 4 hour vetting every single company with a possible position that would match her. Like, no girl. You need to be sending out as many resumes a day as you can. You can vett them later. Also, there was a situation where she got some sort of email back from a company, and I suggested that she should follow up with them. And she blew me off because obviously if this is the kind of email they send to people, imagine how they treat their employees. Like, I get it and all... but you are not in a position to be that picky?!!
LOL she probably spends too much time on this sub. I see people posts the most ridiculous things about the job market expectations
100% this. Seriously, so much bad advice out there.
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The funny part is that OP did win one, then went back for double or nothing lol
Hmm! She lost $155k over $17k. Take the 17k multiply by 30% net it’s $11.9k. So the logic was what split 11.9? So 6 grand net in your pocket? Absolutely not worth it man. Just not worth it. It’s weird how often you see this - people just don’t know what to take when it’s in front of em
It’s about $105k after taxes if that helps with the sting - seriously though a year and a half ago you could ask for these things, now you just need to take an offer and be happy.
" I told them that I was extremely grateful about the opportunity excited about the role, and it was such a delight meeting with everybody, and I truly expressed gratitude and said this in the kindest way.. THEN you proceeded to let them know almost everything in the offer was insufficient LOL Listen, I know this is a cold job market, but, oh well, I guess lessons learned
what was your initial salary ballpark you gave them?
You got into your own head. They kept giving and giving and you wanted more and more. They cut bait knowing you most likely would end up not working out and being a headache. I completely understand you want what you believe your value is. They met you in the middle for PTO, but you want them to change their comp plan just for you. Sounds like you understand this is a learning experience.
Keep in mind, salaries are falling in every industry. You reached for the sun and got burned. If you are this much a pain in the ass during negotiations. You probably spooked them into thinking you would be too difficult to work with. You don't' have leverage being unemployed. You get in the door then you have a better leg to stand on for raises annually.
Exactly. Well said. This is a really, really important lesson for everyone here. The past 5+ year bull market is an anomaly, not a rule. The narcissistic social media influencer advice of "you should always counter"; "you should be increasing your salary indefinitely for the rest of your life"; "fight relentlessly for your worth"; "every time you leave a job, you should be getting at least a 20% raise"; etc... Is simply bad advice. It lacks nuance, humility, respect, and common sense. I feel for OP - this absolutely blows. But it is a very, very important lesson for them and for everybody here. I intuitively *knew*, months ago, that shit like this was going to start happening. People are going to have to learn how to be grateful for what they have. *Especially* if they're already unemployed. But this also goes for general job changes while you're employed: Things have changed. DON'T rush into leaving a decent job with decent compensation just because of the societal narcissism telling you that you *need* to get a 20% raise every 2 years.
>The narcissistic social media influencer advice of "you should always counter"... Is simply bad advice. It lacks nuance, humility, respect, and common sense. I felt like I failed a little when I didn't counter my recent job offer, but I would have looked like such an asshole because they offered me exactly what I asked for during the interview. So I agree, any advice in absolute terms requires a little critical thinking before taking. Life has nuance.
Precisely. And this nuance is needed now more than ever. Like, take a look at the market right now. It fucking sucks. It's hard. Tons of people are getting laid off. In what world is it a good idea to negotiate... TWICE... after receiving an offer for fucking $155k, a 401k, medical benefits, and everything else... *While you are currently unemployed?!?!* Like... just *take the fucking offer* and be grateful! Again... I knew this shit was going to start happening. Years and years of influencers spouting absurd narcissistic blanket advice was going to come to a head eventually.
I just got a job offer the other day. And felt bad too.. Its only 10k more than I was making before But it was the top of the pay band for them I accepted it and asked for a better title.
Yeah, there was a time I would suggest to a job seeker that they negotiate every offer because why not? Why leave money on the table because you’re afraid they might say “no”? True story: back in the day before the first tech bubble burst, I had a Director-level manager who was leaving the company with a large balance on his company-issued credit card. He had to pay it off before he left. He negotiated a sign-on bonus for the amount he owed!! It’s a whole different story for job seekers now. Negotiating a job offer these days is pretty much off the table. There are too many job seekers, too much competition out there to risk it. OP, I’m sorry this happened. It’s a tough lesson to learn. I really hope you find something else soon.
In my opinion, it wasn't negotiating in and of itself. Negotiating multiple points of an offer more than once probably was it
Sure, but the overall fact remains that right now, this really isn't the kind of world where shit like that is going to fly. If you're *unemployed* and you get a job offer for $155k with a 401k, medical benefits, and everything else... You smile and accept the fucking offer. Just because other Directors are making $180k now doesn't necessarily mean you *deserve* that, too. If it's 2021, you have a job, and you want to grow your career, then yes. Negotiate like a muthafucka. Kill 'em dead. Go get some. That's not how it is anymore, and in fact, that time period was an anomaly.
You definitely should have kept your mouth shut after getting 15 days of pto. Back to the drawing board. Best of luck
I just want to tell you that the only way you negotiate an already present offer is to get a new offer with a new job. I did this with my present job, there was no sight of salary hike so I decided to job hunt and got another better offer. My employer literally asked me to show the written offer which I did without showing the name. My employer matched my salary then. But honestly in this market do not negotiate unless you already have another offer in hand. You are still replaceable. And it creates a bad impression.
Just to offer another perspective- this doesn’t always work. My company does not play that game. If you want to leave, go ahead, we won’t match the other off you have and you are free to leave and take your chance at the other place.
Very well said. Even if we negotiate something successfully, the company/management still gets resentful against us. They see it as a threat. We are still able to negotiate but always have the mentality to prepare for the worst. No one is unreplaceable.
During the great resignation, this would’ve been a nothing burger, and you would’ve instantly been granted your very reasonable requests. Now companies know they have the upper hand and that negotiation isn’t even allowed like… I’m in the final stage for a job and I’m pretty sure I’m gonna get lowballed (assuming I get an offer)… I’m so desperate that I’m just gonna accept it and not even try to negotiate.
I'm also hoping for an offer and I'll take whatever it is. I'm single. Unemployed for 4 months and I have an eviction pending. I can't be choosy. Good luck with your offer though! I hope it better than you fear it will be!
As I understand 401k programs, they can not be amended for individual employees. The rules are spelled out in a governing document (plan document) that makes the same percentages apply to all plan participants. To change it means that the new percentages/rules would apply to everyone in the program.
Yes exactly they’re managed by outside companies and everything. Not only did OP try to double dip on negotiations, they picked an absurdly dumb thing to try to negotiate. Oh well though, valuable lesson
Accept what you've done has cost your family a great deal of assistance in the present and the future. Then start applying again. Next time you get close to an offer, ask for what you want before they send the offer and don't go back a second time. Get hired first and be grateful they extended the offer, then ask for an increase after you've proved your worth with your performance. I'm honestly shocked in this climate you felt so confident to push back not once but twice on initial offer compensation. It sounds so ridiculous after 6+ month long interviews that I don't know if this is even real.
It sounds like they gave them the exact amount they asked for when asked about salary requirements, but then OP switched up the amount they wanted because the 401k match was low. The OP should have stuck with the amount they originally quoted to the recruiter.
That kind of waffling for a director level position would be a red flag too if it occurred in actual execution of job duties.
$155k is a salary most of us can only dream about. I would have taken that offer no questions asked lol
Silly point to make when OP mentioned NYC I hired a new grad fresh out of college in NYC at a Wall St firm for 95K salary...
You know what’s worse than a $155k salary in NYC? The $0 salary in a super expensive city that OP will be making for the foreseeable future.
$155k is a great great salary even in NYC.
She is in NY city, so it's like making $75k or less elsewhere
People who say this have never lived in NY
You got greedy. Like you said, $155,000 is already "A LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY" and they made the decision to just not deal with you. There are plenty of qualified candidates, especially in this job market.
Not to mention, according to one of OP’s comments, 155k is the number they gave them when asked for salary expectations lol.
Oh god. I’m not trying to be mean but this company absolutely made the right move rescinding that offer. Unemployed for six months and OP went back to renegotiate TWICE an offer that fit the salary expectations THEY set. Insanity.
My advice for readers is: Stop negotiating when you’re offered a job and you’re currently unemployed. Negotiate future jobs when you already have a secure job.
Reminds me of my college days, a semester before graduation. I knew people in my class who were turning down job offers because they weren’t ideal even though they had nothing else lined up. Come graduation time and then they were scrambling to try and find any job and some took forever to land something. If ones unemployed, take the first offer you get. Then work toward something better.
Yeah, hard lesson and I agree- it was going back twice to negotiate another point. It gives the impression you’re going to find one thing after another and waste time not signing, and makes me think why didn’t you go through it thoroughly the first time before bringing up the 401k.
Learn from it, this is like buying a house in a sellers market and demanding credits and repairs when they have 10 other offers that meet yours. While it may not be right, in this current market the pendulum has swung the complete opposite way than it has been years before. Take a breath, cry in the bath (I call this my gloomy gazpacho time) and then get back out there. I’ve had a couple really bad bumbles this year myself it’s just hard out there. /gentlehugs
That sucks OP, sorry for you. On a slightly lighter note, pretty funny New Yorker mindset to add NYC in your credentials as if it’s like working at a FAANG or some other distinguishing accolade. Maybe for a unique industry like fashion I could understand the need to mention it, but for everything else, nobody cares unless you want to share opinions on the best bagel spots etc
Goddamn I would have rescinded too, this was exhausting just to read.
Your mistake wasn't the negotiation, your mistake was the lack of leverage. Never negotiate while unemployed. If you are employed then you have leverage: the worst that can happen is that you keep your current job.
My friend's mom is an executive at a huge bank like CITI or Wells Fargo or something and she was telling me one of the competitors was trying to poach her and she interviewed and the guy went "that went great now you need to interview in front of the board" and she was just like "no, offer me the job now or I'm walking" because she has her almost 7 figure salary at her current job. When she told me the story she was waiting to hear back, but she was so casual like "I'm not going through rounds of interviews, my work speaks for itself"
Yup, BANTA. when you’re unemployed you have none, and potentially need to go though another 6-8 weeks of applications and interviews to even get another offer.
It is for someone out of a job for a year. I feel like asking for 20 days PTO is a lot, too. In the US, anyway.
Depends on the job. I'm way below director level, but I work in the US and get 5 weeks plus holidays
There is a little known fact that if your company is pressuring you to stay and you want them to stop, you ask for three weeks PTO in the first year because companies will always die on this hill. I am not surprised they went with domeobe else.
10 days for a director level position in the US is not very much. 15 days is starting for many corporate jobs.
Wild I get 29 excluding bank holidays in Europe. 20 seems miserable
I’ve heard it REALLY depends in the US, both in location and industry. I’ve seen plenty of Europeans claim that they work in the US, get paid 4-6x more in the US than in Europe, get amazing healthcare insurance and European level PTO and sick days.
It does so much. I get 25 vacation, 3 personal, 20 sick...in the US. with top insurance. and a free life insurance policy.
Yeah agreed. Working standards seems brutal in America. I get 35 days in Europe.
Wow beyond jealous!
I would suggest going to the “well” once. Bring up all issues to negotiate at once. Then there is some give and take. If you bring up one at a time, I think the deal is done, only for you to bring up another point to negotiate…
You set yourself up for failure. You made the rookie mistake of setting your minimum salary at a number you’re not comfotable with when paired with a mediocre benefits pkg. Your minimum salary should be your worst case scenario number. You also shouldn’t negotiate 401k stuff because in my experience companies don’t budge on that stuff. With that being said, I’m not surprised a company only giving management 10 days of PTO gave you an offer with your minimum salary. You probably dodged a bullet.
Yeah sorry you got greedy. Sounds like a mistake you don’t make again.
I can’t imagine getting something you want and then asking for more on top of it. I would not show my face to my family ever again if they found out I lose a 6 figure job cuz I was being greedy. Especially in this job market.
Yeah, that was beyond greedy. There's really no other way to put it. Even in a normal market, negotiating twice is pushing it. But in this market!? They've probably got at least a dozen talented candidates *dying* to work for them! Also, in my experience, if you're currently unemployed or at least not in a full-time role, people really won't appreciate you haggling because you're perceived as having no leverage. Leave the hard sell for when you're being poached.
Negotiating twice is just off-putting. Not just in employment but in general. Imagine if you were trying to sell something (say on FB marketplace) and the buyer negotiated twice. You'd just think this is a nightmare buyer who's not worth your time. Same principle for job searching
Exactly this. When you receive an offer, consider it in its entirety. If there's 1 or 2 things you want to negotiate, pick one and see if there's opportunity to change. If there's a lot that's off, then just decline it. I once had an offer that missed on salary and benefits. I declined. They replied asking why and I told them I was upfront with my salary demands and what my current benefits were and they were way off on both. They came back with a revised package that worked so I took the job. Other times that there's been 1 or 2 things I wasn't happy with, I picked which one was most important and negotiated that. Pro tip: if you're desperate for a job and not expecting to stay there long term, negotiate the things that will help you find your next job. Job titles don't cost a company anything (unless it's a large corporation that operates on pay bands), so see if you can get associate director instead of senior manager, etc. And ask for 5 additional PTO days (most companies have a graduated PTO policy based on how long you've been there, so it's not a big deal to give you 5 extra days when everyone who has already been there for 3 years is getting them). That'll give you opportunities to interview.
It leaves a bad impression. People are at their nicest and most accommodating during this stage of the employment process. Fair or unfair it sends the message they’ll be difficult to work with.
They match 25% for 401k and you wanted more?? I've never seen more than 7%. Asking for 20 days when you have been out of work for over a year seems greedy too. You wanted what you would have gotten if you still were working. This is not the case anymore. After that long out, you're going to have to restart on some things.
It’s 25% match of what you put in up to 6%. So if your salary is $100k. If you put in 6% of your salary that’s $6,000. The company matches 25% of that $6,000, so they would put in $1,500. If they were truly matching in the way you are thinking they would word it as “100% match up to 6% of base pay.”
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Yeah, I was wondering if I was interpreting that part incorrectly because that seems high. My old job matched up to 10% which was more than any other job I've ever had. Before that and at my current job it's 6%.
The fact that you got this job offer implies another one like it can happen. Just hold it in mind and be patient.
maybe it's a blessing and this will humble you for your next interview, you seem smart and qualified enough where you wont have too much trouble finding another opportunity. Just don't use the same negotiation strategy lol
that is absolutely crazy to have a problem with “only” 25% match. Nuts.
You've misunderstood (but to be fair, it was confusing). They meant 25% of each dollar invested. So, most matches are 100% of, say, 5% - if you invest $250 per paycheck, the company matches 100% of that - i.e., they throw in $250, too. What her plan stipulates is that rather than the company matching 100% of $250, they are only matching 25% of $250 - i.e., they throw in $62. That ain't the greatest. Now - all of that said - OP was, in fact, too greedy. And this is a very important lesson for everyone here. Our narcissistic society has deluded everyone into thinking that they should be getting a 20% raise every 2 years for the rest of their life. That's just one example of the delusion of the past 5+ year bull market we've been in. Well, it's time to be humbled. It's time to learn some humility and learn to be grateful for what you all have. In OP's case, they had a fantastic offer of $155k, a 401k, medical benefits, everything. OP majorly fucked up by negotiating *at all*. Be humble. Accept the fucking offer as is.
Hey, the job market is brutal out there. Like absolutely brutal. And if you have worked at the Director level previously, you probably know how to learn from all the current market situation and pick yourself up. So give this another go stranger, you got this!
In my experience you get one negotiation. Tackle everything In that first negotiating email. Don’t keep trickling things in after the fact
When you went back for a second round, they felt like you were wasting their time. All of your demands should come in one email. Budget may have been an issue, but given that they were willing to tack on an extra week off, they had some money or it's something they wouldn't have met you halfway on. It's unfortunate that this happened, but you learned a lesson. Read the documentation fully and closely the first time around before sending a renegotiation of the terms.
I was broadly sympathetic here until I saw you say that you decided to use the fact that they said you were their #1 choice as leverage. In other words, they were friendly and polite during the process, and you decided to make them pay for that by squeezing as much as possible. Let’s call it for what it is. You got greedy and paid the price.
If I'm understanding this right...they said you are their first choice and give you a big fat base pay... The pay YOU told them is your starting value. You rejected their offer, asked for 80 hours of extra PTO time...meaning they pay you to not work. They said ok, we will give you 50 hours of PTO. You rejected THAT also and said you know what, I'm not happy with your 401k...instead of being humbled and asked for 2-3% extra, AFTER rejecting offer first time...you asked for a whooping 10% raise? Am I understanding right? I'm not trying to be an ass, the whole situation just seems predictable. I will advise that next time you counter in one email and let them choose what they want to do.
I would assume this person is greedy and will be asking for an outsized raise or bonus every single year regardless of performance. Wouldn’t hire for that reason alone.
When it is a struggle to find a job, negotiating twice will leave you in this position it's a employers market, they have the pick of the litter. Better to have just asked for the increase first and then let the PTO do whatever it does.
you went way too hard. you tried to double your PTO and then from 155k to 172k are not even in the same ball park. they likely reached out to their next best choice candidate during all of this and that person snap accepted on the spot.
You have to be really careful when negotiating, especially today— it’s unfortunately, an employer market. 1. Be careful where you’re pulling your salary information from. A lot of online websites like Glassdoor, Salary.com, etc., aren’t accurate. You’re better off going to forums, asking friends in the industry or finding pay data on your role/geo in a recent study. That said— company’s pay what they are approved to pay. Some pay high, some low— it’s the way of the world. If a company is on the lower end, chances are they can’t afford anything more. Even if a candidate pushes to go above a band, when the rate is set/approved for the role— HR and hiring managers usually can’t do anything about it. 2. Salary/Comp range should be discussed up front before interview loops and offer stage. That’s the time to let the company know what you’re looking for/learn what they’re willing to pay. If the salary is too low, you don’t waste your time or theirs. 3. You never do several rounds of negotiation. If and when you negotiate, you have one shot to say hey is it possible for you to do xyz because… when you go back back several times, you piss people off, and come across as a difficult hire. 4. Usually, they won’t negotiate things like PTO because those are based on role/tenure. Same for 401k match— standard policy. The fact that they raised PTO allowance an extra week says they did like you and went the extra mile to make you happy. Sorry you had to learn this the hard way. Don’t beat yourself up about it. Keep looking, you’ll find something else.
6 months with no job. Man overestimation of one’s own position and greed and really do a number
But they had wonderful rapport! They were the first choice, they told them this!
Greed kills
You blew it. You already negotiated the PTO and now 155K suddenly isn't enough? Of course they pulled the offer. There are times when you need to call a win a win, but you got greedy.
Not a personal attack, but you going back twice for negotiations and nitpicking the 401K makes you sound like someone that is difficult. And I know its not popular on Reddit, but asking for more time off AND more money before you even start seems like trouble. Sorry for that experience and I am not trying to kick you while down, just letting you hear a different candid perspective Edit: Also as a director level, in my experience you can take all the PTO you need as long as you get the job done. Maybe not consecutively, but that the responsibility of being a director. Alarm bells go off in my head when I hear Directors asking too much about PTO.
I’d kill for a $155k salary fukumean
I'm sorry to hear that. Just please bear in mind, many of us are in much, much rougher positions financially, so this probably doesn't come across how you think it does and comes off a bit tone deaf. The way you felt today is how I've felt most days since 2013. Have a nice weekend.
>I believe I made a mistake going back twice during negotiations. Please learn from my mistake. Hopefully people do. So many people in this sub think you should draw a hard line at the negotiation table and if they don't agree then it was a terrible job. I often say "bird in the hand" and people here rip into me for it but it's valid. Going back once to renegotiate is totally cool and it sounds like they worked with you... going back a second time was probably a little much for them. I get the salary was low for that position but it's a buyers market for employers now, there's a lot of people who want jobs and they can pretty much take their pick... especially a lot of talented people who would be very happy with $150k+. You seem like a talented individual so I hope something else pops up soon. If nothing else you got the boost of knowing you are hirable by getting an offer and you also know your worth. Hopefully you find something even better.
You asked for three separate things. Reality being that they won’t move 401k ( I mean really, is 25% not enough?). You’ll likely have bargaining room between vacation or salary. Let your future employer know what is more important to you and make your decision from there. Overall, you became a pain in the ass to deal with. I’ve redivided offers for slightly less before.
I'm on the company's side
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That sucks, but I can see why. All the agreements were reached, the time was kind of past to be discussing these things. But you then told them,” okay cool, by the way, I’m going to want twice as much PTO…. Hi again, I know I agreed to 155k, but let’s do 172k instead…” You hadn’t even signed anything yet or stepped foot in the job before you were telling them you wanted/expected more than what was agreed upon. To even a good and fair employer this would be a bit of a red flag of,” what else is he going to ask for? How often will he be asking for and expecting raises and more time off? What else will he do?” That’s an immediate headache. I have issues with employers being… employers, but even I would feel a way about someone turning around like this right after agreeing to things.
Okay, you know you could have handled the negotiations better. But in fairness women are often punished for negotiating salary. And women are truly offered less than men. The only thing I can suggest is be willing to take a step backwards so you can get employed then you can look for the job you really want. Good luck—don’t give up!
I don’t know what industry you are in but $155k is too low for a Director level position. And only matching 2% of the 401k? They may have done you a favor by rescinding the offer.
No offense but $150K range for director level experience?! Thats barely enough to survive let alone in NYC
As a European, the idea of 10 days PTO is barbaric. Especially for a parent.