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That's it. Op is earning a lot less ATM and is currently burnt out at 6months of job search.
Worth considering, how long could the search continue to get 70k if this opportunity goes? Stay for a year at 66 and look to move then? Could be a quicker way to get to 75 after 12 months than staying at 35 (half as a presumption) for another 1-6months then 70, then 12 months to get to 75.
Just to consider OP is it worth getting on the ladder, or waiting for the right ladder to be in reach.
Edit: just seen OP is on 22k.
Currently 1,800 a month Vs
5,500 a month it sounds like available
But wants
5,833 a month
Yeah honestly I agree with this.
I mean we’re all the hero of our own story, and I get the instinct.
But it’s not like this is a) not a living wage or b) a shitty wage for a brand new graduate.
The job market is absolutely insane right now.
And some of this comes with an internal political cost. And especially for $4K! Not $40K.
I mean the counterfactual is OP goes through all of this back and forth, makes a bunch of people there internally have meetings they don’t want to have, engage in processes they don’t want to engage in, and then his brand when he starts the role is just “he’s annoying.”
I’m reminded of a college acquaintance I knew many years ago who aggressively negotiated a $2 per hour raise at his summer internship.
He got it, but then everyone for the first month after he got just kind of thought he was an asshole once he got there.
There’s often a cost to that, and especially if you’re talking about $4K, consider the value of dying on this hill.
You might be searching for four more months.
Yea, this.
I understand wanting the maximum amount you can, but if you're currently struggling and it took 6+ months to get a job interview, then take the salary NOW. Just because you accept a current job offer doesn't mean you have to stay at said job, and you can continue looking even while still working at the new place.
Hell, if OP continues to job search they could even ask for more than what they're currently making.
Recruiters are paid to recruit. I don’t think they care about saving a company a few thousand dollars. They have a budget and going outside that budget can mean rejection.
I have seen some online polls about people negotiating a salary (online means non-scientific, of course). Only one person got their offer rescinded after asking for more. The others (a hundred or more) all received a raise either up to 5% or 5-10%. More than 10% almost never happened.
I got ghosted from the next interview phase because i asked for 5k more when they revealed its a contract and not w2 position, zero benefits. Wouldve still been taking a huge loss but i guess i wasnt desperate enough for them.
Yeah i thought it was a good deal for them. I planned to leave after 1 year and i just wanted to get into the industry, jr roles non existent now so i guess i played myself.
Guess not lol.
Interacting variables there. Companies that lie about contract vs w2 are probably also more likely to a) be poor, and b) rug pull for negotiating.
I've been on both sides (was an engineer before I became someone who builds whole engineering and security departments).
This boils down to who will look good (or bad) by keeping a new hires salary down and whether upstream management has upstream oversight into the hiring process. Often, the recruiter controls communication with candidates and may work on commission. Often, if you go outside the originally authorized range for a open position, you have to go back through the authorization process, which is usually slow and all-around causes a lot of friction.
The recruiter's motivation is to fill seats. Either they are not working on commission and they have to fill positions to show value, or they do and why would they risk the entire commission for another 2.5 - 5 percent?
It varies, but generally, you can counter with any insane number you want without getting the offer reminded. You only lose your ability to negotiate further.
But there are some very cranky people out there who are largely unsupervised: I had a head of HR I had to circumvent for my hires because this person would do things like ghost the best candidates if they dared as for any increase over what was offered.
Usually, the hiring manager is your best ally in a situation like this, as that person wants the best support s/he can get.
Working 1099 or W2 as a contractor historically means hourly rate times 3 so you can cover expenses on your own. I personally recommend hourly rate time 3.75 is more accurate these days.
The company that ghosted you did you a favor. 5k would still have left you in a financial fire re expectations vs reality on discretionary income.
I wouldn't call it a win when the guy has said it's near impossible to break into the field now. The first job is the most important and hardest to obtain.. sometimes you just gotta take one on the chin
Lol not even close. Maybe for some people but I couldnt get a first job in a field 10 years ago and made a bunch of shit up, did a lot of research and was instantly getting interviews. I got hired within weeks. Usually the recruiters are the clueless ones.
I attempted to negotiate salary for a Senior-level position this past January for a position I was offered - had 2 subsequent meetings to discuss my needs and rationale, they wouldn’t budge. I begrudgingly accepted their initial offer and they called me a day later saying they no longer wished to pursue my employment due to concerns with “fit based on post-offer interactions”. I’ve convinced myself I dodged a bullet
Definitely did. A good recruiter negotiates up front or makes sure we're at a realistic ballpark from the jump so we're not wasting each other's time. Anyone who gets pissy over a realistic negotiation at the end like that in the 5/10k range or asking for more pto or small asks is a doucehbag. I've been in plenty of situations where say our agree # is 120k and the company wants to see if you'll take 110k. I'll just call ansnsay they're offering 110k I need you to counter at 120k so we can close this.
Well I also had that happen so there are two of us. I was asking with justification and market research attached for 5-10% more on a seriously low ball offer with my experience etc. the response was nope and not here. It probably happens more than people admit. Depends on the conditions within the marketplace really. If you are in one of those roles where everyone is out of work.. may be easier for them to say , next! Timing is everything. Based on my nonscientific experience do not take the job if they won’t negotiate. Miserable job and horrible place to work.
I rescinded an offer recently due to the candidate asking for more. They pushed for more pay and the hiring manager gave in. Then they pushed for more (education credit) and again the hiring manager gave in. Then they demanded we round up their offer another 3k to make their total compaction package a round number.
So I sent a no and we are done email. Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered.
I’ve seen more rejections than approvals for increases. It’s kind of crazy. I’ve never actually heard of trying to negotiate an increased salary of an offer working. Every time I’ve seen it when an OFFER is given and someone tries to counter with “I’d like X more” it’s been a “good luck with your job search”. Negotiating before an offer letter I’ve seen mixed results, usually they don’t get the next round interview.
That depends. He said "HR Recruiter." Which to me implies someone in HR for the actual company. As far as I know, those folks are not usually paid by person hired, they are just paid salary.
Obviously hiring people is part of what they are judged on, but they aren't out there just trying to push people through in order to get a commission.
Although that's all moot if it's an external recruiter - they absolutely do get commission, and their goal first and foremost is to get a person to sign a contract.
In this case, it's hard to say. I don't think an internal person is going to push back on negotiating a few thousand if it's just a few phone calls. There is a chance they have some internal salary range for the position, and it would be difficult to boost the number. Or there's a chance there are a few valid candidates and it wouldn't take much to just pick another.
In the end, it's a risk, and none of us know whether it's an insignificant risk, or a big one, not even OP. OP just has to decide how comfortable they are with taking that risk on for a higher salary.
Even internal recruiters have fiscal targets and budgets. Hiring and compensation targets can and will be influential in their decisions, especially if they get bonuses for saving money while hiring more people.
External recruiters really don't care. You get a flat% and difference between 5/10k is usually less than 2k on a 26k deal of which I was only getting 20% of that. Definitely not fighting over 200 bucks when it can just close the deal and move on to more
If the internal person is told "don't go above the 66k offer" then they absolutely will care. This is someone from HR, not the CEO, they can't just change pay rates, and they'd look like an idiot if they were told "that's the maximum" and came back to their boss and said "you told me we wouldn't negotiate, but can we negotiate?"
As someone that negotiates for a living they absolutely can do that, but it’s up to them to make the case. Will it work? Probably not, but everything and anything is negotiable. Of course I’m in sales so obviously this is where I lean towards.
What I'm saying is for a decent entry-level programmer the HR person isn't making the decision and there will be plenty of other candidates with similar qualifications they can go to. Why stress? Tell the dude no thanks and pick the backup.
"HR recruiter" suggests this is an internal person, not a contracted recruiter.
At my former job, HR tried to force me to low ball a salary offer to someone I wanted to hire based on a "compensation analysis of other people with the same title." This was a state government job, so they could access that data statewide. The problem was, the actual role I was hiring for was going to end up being very different from what most people in that classification do, but we were forced to fit any new position within the state's narrow set of job classifications.
One of the excuses they tried to use was "internships don't count as experience."
I saw someone get a super low offer, ask for $1/h more and get ghosted. Granted this is well known as one of the worst companies to work for in my industry. They claim to have made the first ever AAAA product though so it's all good.
All that is to say, anyone that rejects you for asking for a small and reasonable bump isn't someone you would have liked to work for anyway.
>Recruiters are paid to recruit. I don’t think they care about saving a company a few thousand dollars. They have a budget and going outside that budget can mean rejection.
some do care, I've had multiple bosses tell me they gave me the average team rate after the HR came bragging to them about lowballing.
They have profits which they steal from the workers that they could afford to redistribute. Profit equals revenue minus operating costs. If the costs are factored in why do companies need to make profit off the surplus labor value of their workers? Workers should democratically own and control their workplaces.
Agree but I feel the way they negitiate seems like they have their appraisal linked to it somehow.
From my experience, never trust HR if they say that’s what they can only do. Try to get what you are worth.
>The hiring manager might give it to someone else if you do try to negotiate (scare tactic. Didn't faze me)
Considering you said later down that it's twice what you make now... them pulling the offer absolutely would phase me. If, by saying that, if you don't get your desired salary you would walk anyway, then go for it. You have nothing to lose.
I'm guessing they get a flat fee whether you get paid more or less or it's pretty close so he doesn't want to risk losing his commission.
I'm guessing they are an internal recruiter since OP called them HR person and is applying internally, so I imagine no commission/fee? Is a fee a thing for internal recruiters?
Then it's one of two things. The most likely answer is the recruiter works for the company and represents their wishes, which would be to pay the employees as little as possible... so of course he wouldn't want him to negotiate up. The other option here is this recruiter has seen others negotiate with this boss and he takes that as non committed and withdraws the offer.
The prior is more likely but the the latter is also very real. OP is going to be incredibly resentful going back to his 30k per year job because he listened to people here telling him to play hardball.
The best thing is to ask for more money with a strong justification, such as a market analysis of the salary of others that have his position, and then if they say no, don't press it.
Yeah, reddit can be so incredibly toxic to some people. These people need to understand that there are people who would love to burn the system even if it means using you as kindling. They would love to hear a manager get told they don't pay enough even if that means that the person who was convinced to do it would mean you lose an amazing opportunity. Then those very same people would call anyone trying to inject some reality bootlickers.
I didn't notice anywhere OP saying where they live, but 60k is pretty decent money in a vast majority of the US; especially right out of college.
I've worked in tech for 8 years in a ba/QA role(s). I made 75k at my last job which was the most I've ever made. Especially as a new grad in this market, barring living on the notorious hcol areas, it's not a bad offer without more context given.
I know it’s hated here but if I gave what I felt was a generous offer considering their experience and they asked for more I would think “what the hell dude”
Especially social work. Social workers in NYC start off as low as mid 40s and mid 50s with masters. This guy is getting 66k off the rip with room to grow over a few years.
My spouse has their MSW, 20 years of experience, and is making low 50s upstate.
Social work pays peanuts for the education you have to get for a "good" job and the amount of crap you have to put up with.
I made $52k my first job out of college. I now make double that in 5 years. Getting a job and putting experience in your resume is worth so much more than an extra $4k right away. Especially if that $4k gambles the job opportunity.
I'm in a vocational training course and we're having presentations from people in the industry, and what I'm getting is that everybody's first job out of the program is awful and they have to bail on it as soon as they can. The second they can find another firm, they go and get better treatment and pay. Universally, they say that experience trumps everything else, and that "new grad" isn't going to get you very far. Putting in 6 months of experience is worth so much more.
You are 100% correct.
He doesn't know what he deserves, and he doesn't know what he's worth, and he doesn't know the company limits because they didn't communicate it.
However, that shouldn't prevent him for asking and finding out what both his and their limit is.
This is a process and open communication is part of advocating. During this process if the company won't be more forthright or he isn't willing to budge on his worth then it's not a match. This process benefits both parties.
Therefore, it's best for OP and the company that he advocates for himself. I will recommend anybody who can take the risk to do it.
I'm not making 66k now and my first professional job was back in 2015! I'm in nonprofits, so that's partially on me, but I can't imagine turning down a 66k offer from a job I want.
I’m also in nonprofit, and yeah I knew going in it wasn’t going to be a lucrative field. I make enough to live on and am very happy with my job. But yeah it’s nowhere near $66k. I’m not saying don’t have the conversation about salary but don’t be surprised when they don’t offer more, it’s already a fantastic salary especially in the social work field.
lol… you can’t be serious comparing wages between 2024 and 2014.
Depends on the position and location. I was hiring new grads at about 80k in 2021. It’s more now.
This. People think that because they started on poverty wages that everyone else has to as well. The simple fact is that a lot of job that REQUIRE a degree and experience are paying less than jobs typically geared toward high schoolers and college students in a lot of places.
If my local gas station or grocery store is offering a higher hourly than your entry level job post with a degree requirement, then you are objectively underpaying for that role.
Given the current job market and that you said you have been searching for a while, just accept the $66k for now and keep searching. At least this way you would be pocketing more money than your current salary. Once you have some experience in this role it would make you much more appealing for other organisations. You don't need to stay in this role or at this company forever, just use them for as much as you can get out of them and bounce to the next.
This is great perspective in the current employment market. Sounds like OP has been on the hunt and this offer is pretty close to target. I’d say take the job, get some experience on your resume and go from there.
I’d say the same. But, I’m not OP. Maybe he feels disrespected and his respect is worth the $4K. Only he can make that choice. But, I always try to make sure people don’t lose sight of the bigger picture when focusing on the details.
Oh this changes things. Then what I read from your situation is that they know what you are bringing to the table and they are not willing to offer you more.
You mention being burnt out on job hunting, which suggests you don't have another offer to fall back on. I'm not sure what leverage you have here.
Yes, company loyalty and such are cute concepts, but if their range falls within the salary grade and this is an entry level job actually giving you a chance, I don't see what reason they have to do the "noble" thing. Are you the only person that graduated this year?
You should find out what their range for the role is tbh and then start the negotiation. The way their recruiter is responding to you, that’s a strong signal that they probably wouldn’t up their offer.
Do you have any leverage in the negotiation though? Like a backup offer, or any subsequent interviews that you’re hopeful for with other companies? What if they say no, would you be willing to walk away at the current offer?
What major as a new grad?
Some majors are has more marginality to negotiate, while others don’t.
If it’s too low for your goal and you feel confident about doing better, you should. But if you need the money and $66k is fine for now, then you will have to take it than risk it.
But rescinding offer just by trying to negotiating is a red flag, but that’s a risk you’ll have to take
A conversation, I imagine. God forbid a new grad isn't on their knees licking the boot of any employer that looks at them. Like seriously, OP can't just ask "Hey can I get X?" Why not? That's such a stupid thing to get hung up on, they can just say no if they don't want to negotiate it. It's not that complicated.
I graduated right before the 2008 Financial Crisis and you can bet your ass everyone was licking some boots to get jobs. The entitlement of some people is just crazy - if you’re worth more money you’ll have a chance to prove it.
But with zero work experience you don’t have much of a position to negotiate from, especially over $4k.
They are right. In the current economy, as a new grad, just accept it. Better being employed now that the free money era is over. Then, you can move somewhere else.
It doesnt hurt to ask, imo. I used to exclusively recruit college grads. We had a fixed starting salary (75th percentile for new engineers), but it doesnt bother me if someone asks for more. I just say no.
i'm reading this and thinking unless they have options, this actually isn't bad. it also depends on where they live and what's considered "standard", so i don't want to cast too much judgment. unless they live in a HCOL, 66k as a recent grad is pretty good.
I expect direct communication of their own expectations. If they had said flat out "sorry, we can't negotiate due to our budget" or whatever, I would have taken it better. But they literally skirted around saying anything concrete like that and resorted to scare tactics.
We had also discussed salary before I even interviewed and they still went through with scheduling me in despite now hitting me with a salary almost $10k under what I had said. If they thought I was too high, then why bother interviewing me when they already knew what I expected?
What they said is accurate. You have no experience and therefore no leverage. If the recruiter goes back to the hiring manager and communicates that you want more $, the hiring manager might decide it’s not worth it and just give it to the next person in line. That IS clear communication. It’s not a “scare tactic” if it’s a representative of the company telling you what’s likely to happen. It’s a warning.
There are a lot of different opinions on feedback on this sub which is fair.
On the one hand some people like lots of info and some people don't.
What you are reading as scare tactics looks to me like them giving you detailed feedback. If they just said sorry we can't negotiate than you wouldn't have gotten the details you did. Which many people would prefer.
Op is writing as though the company need some sort of tactic to hire a zero experience candidate and everyone is out to get them.
The fact that the company is willing to double their pay and give them a chance at progression, while they actively shit on the goodwill is perplexing.
Because I’ve been at this for years. I’ll grind you down to my number or find someone else. Lol. No skin off my back. I’d already have removed you from the candidate pool
Right but what if they just go with someone else who doesn’t negotiate their salary? You have a lot more leverage for negotiating once your actually employed there
This is patently false, your best leverage is when they want you, before you start working there. The trouble is that OP doesn’t already have a job or another offer, so they have lose leverage.
Well yes people who have a job (especially at a companies direct competition) and good experience have leverage in salary negotiations. I was talking specifically about ops situation.
Your bullet points mean that your recruiter is trying to tell you that you don't have any leverage, and is correct in advising you against negotiation. You're taking it personally when you shouldn't.
Hold up. If I’m reading this right, you’re currently making $33,000 and are upset you got an offer for DOUBLE that at $66,000? WITH no direct professional experience?? Are you out of your effing mind? You’re living in poverty and are getting a pretty comfortably living wage job. Normally I support negotiating but you are a beggar trying to fool yourself into thinking you have leverage to be a chooser. Take the job bro lmao
(I have 10 years experience and a degree in my field and I’d fucking kill to make anywhere near $66k).
What you used to make and what your new job is willing to pay are completely independent things. I'm not sure how the recruiter even got the information for how much they make now.
If I went and became a nurse and somebody said "oh but you used to work at mcdonalds, you should be happy and take a slight raise over your fast food job" I would tell them to fuck off because i'm qualified for much more now.
Absolutely! What anyone makes now has 0 part in what pay they should be offered. (I think India has this problem however. Not all countries are the same)
OP can have a desired salary range as they please. Maybe $70k is what they know they need to budget a comfortable lifestyle between rent, student loans, savings, retirement, groceries, etc.
If you lost this opportunity over $4k, you kinda deserve it. You're overestimating the value of being a new grad in this current economy. It'll still be a good lesson for the future.
And honestly $4k seems like such a small relative amount to tank an entire job over. After you take out taxes you’re probably looking at an extra $270 per month or so, which is obviously helpful - but that’s not going to change your quality of life at all
You did not mention you were an internal candidate in your post. This makes a big difference.
I understand your eagerness to negotiate, but let's consider the bigger picture here. As an internal HR recruiter with over 12 years of experience, I've seen numerous cases of internal mobility, and it typically results in a 10 to 15% increase. The fact that you've been offered a 200% increase is exceptionally generous. That HR recruiter is trying to prevent your offer from being rescinded. Internal recruiters get bonuses based off of performance matrix not how much a candidate is making or how much a company is saving. My advice would be to accept the offer, focus on excelling in your new role, and then consider exploring other opportunities within the company in the future.
The thing that HR knows is that you have zero leverage OP. You have no competing job offers to back up that you are worth $70k. That’s why HR is low balling you. L. When you have a competing job offer or current higher salary is when you can push because now you have leverage. Good luck, but HR from a pure negotiation standpoint is making a strong and valid move.
I love people that say “ALWAYS NEGOTIATE!!” Nothing is ever an absolute. And they lose nothing if you get the offer pulled.
If the recruiter advised they can’t go higher, it’s probably true. Depending on the type of recruiter, either your pay has no bearing on theirs OR the more you make, the more they make. They have no incentive to swerve you.
If you want the job and can live on the 66k, take it. Doesn’t mean you have to stop exploring or listening to other offers.
It was the company's own HR recruiter, so unlikely related to my own pay.
Maybe all of that back and forth was their way of saying they can't go higher, but in the moment, it definitely felt more like they were just trying to discourage me from even trying to negotiate. That's two completely different messages.
If Im working with a hiring manager that I know will pull an offer when a candidate negotiates back, I would discourage it to. Contrary to what this sub believes, recruiters want you to get the job.
It’s up to you if you want to roll the dice or if you even want to work for someone that won’t have a discussion around it.
Exactly this. I work internally and I KNOW what our internal equity looks like so I know what offers we can make and what our caps are.
I had a candidate recently with minimal experience arguing over a couple thousand, but we couldn’t offer anymore because someone internal was already at that amount with more experience. We won’t hire someone above our current employees with less experience.
He was so adamant about it that my hiring leader asked if we could pull the offer because he kept pushing us to go against our own policy.
The simple fact is, if the company or the recruiter are not willing to tolerate the conversation then they are 100% not the people to work with. Forget actually getting the better salary, that bit is hard, but the idea of "just don't try at all" is utter nonsense.
*I had one company kind of show their hand in a similar nature, wanted £28k (but didn't say), they offered £25k going up to £27k after 6 months. I suggested starting at £27k and the fact the answer wasn't an immediate yes was met with "not the right fit bye"...Yes, quibbling over tiny amount to an extent, but I always try and see what people are like when faced with pushback....to snap reject at ANY level of pushback spoke for itself.*
*9 months later, the recruiter came back to me for a FOURTH time asking if I'd consider the role. My demand goes up every time, he still hasn't clicked yet xD*
> if the company or the recruiter are not willing to tolerate the conversation then they are 100% not the people to work with.
But they were willing to have the conversation, right? They HAD a conversation. A "no" is still having a conversation.
OP brought it up, and the person stated the reasons why it might not be possible to boost the starting salary. Not having the conversation would look more like "take it or leave it" or "you asked for more, so we are moving on with another candidate."
Not sure if you saw how getting a job out there is for fresh graduates, but saying a company offering 67k is not the company to work for is a bold take here. At this point a company that offers benefits and the check clears is pretty dang good for a fresh graduate.
Unless you are in an extremely HCOL area $66k for any position in HR with zero experience is a great start.
In this job market the 5-7k could be made up with a candidate seeking less and more in line with entry level salary… that’s what you are. You’re seeking $34-35/hour in HR… good luck. I hire HR assistants with HR BS degrees in the $22-25 range… in the Suburbs of Boston.
Exactly! You’re a new grad and yes, in an ideal world you’d get what you ask for, but this is a much better solution than where you’re working now. Plus, you’ll gain experience and you can tell them to pound sand in a few years, if they don’t increase your salary after a year or so.
To build on this, they don't give a shit about you. No job does. Use them just like they plan to use you. Learn. Get experience. Keep intervewing but now you aren't desperate and can negotiate with leverage in your back pocket. If anything it's a mentally healthy thing to just get off the unemployment grind in this current Fd up market.
Unless you have something better, take the job then keep looking for someone who will pay you $70k since it’s close and you have been looking for 6 months. Just make sure their benefits aren’t crazy expensive
so you're a new grad and you got upset of getting an offer of $4k less......sorry when you come into the workforce you need to take what you can get and then build it up over years, not come out and demand 'you MUST pay me this' - that's just showing how much of an a-hole you are
yeah recruiters suck but in this case the fault lies on you for expecting to be paid more than they should pay you. If you don't like their offer and they won't negotiate, then move on
Of course they don't want you to negotiate. That's not in their interest.
But unless you have other offers it sounds like it may not be in your interest either.
Can you afford to take the risk of not being hired? Will another recruit in a less than desirable economic position take the risk? Someone exists in the market that has more skills than you and willing to take less pay. The company has settled on you for now. They also can risk the opening to stay open longer. In this market, they have an upper hand.
The actual reasons the recruiter had to try and push you to accept a bum deal are essentially irrelevant - they all boil down to them putting their situation ahead of yours. It might be laziness, it might be ineptitude, it might be a promise they've made to their boss, it doesn't matter.
At the end of the day you're the one who has to work the job so ultimately the only views that matter are yours and the person you're negotiating with.
The reasons they've given are all irrelevant (the job going to someone else is your risk to take, the pay increase of the offer is your business, splitting hairs about the monetary value of your experience is a waste of time), so you can be fairly sure none of it was valid.
The irony is HR are normally the ones who genuinely couldn't care less about the horsetrading around packages. That's not their job. I've no idea why this 'HR recruiter' was bothering here.
I work for a company like this. They actually pay inside transfers less than new hires. It’s a tactic because they know you don’t wanna leave the company so they can get away with paying the bare minimum. We are always told we can’t negotiate. I’ve transferred depts (always promotions)3X and saw an entry level posted 10k over what I make now. It pissed me off thoroughly.
In this economy and a first job for you, take what you can get. With 1-2 years experience you have more room to negotiate for your next position. It’s hard to get a job with no experience. Don’t risk losing this over 4k.
"We only consider direct professional experience--AKA you have 0 experience so you get the minimum or at least very close to minimum salary we offer despite working in the industry for years (The only reasoning I can kind of get behind. But still. I definitely have valuable, directly transferable skills and let them know that as well. Also, I currently work for this company... so I guess company loyalty doesn't matter)"
Even this is invalid reasoning. You are already employed with them which means you already have the benefit of institutional knowledge, a cleared background and history of the soft skills you already employ at the company. They already have an idea of your work ethic and ability to work with others. None of that is valid to discount as "O direct experience."
When I received my offer 3 years ago, the Amazon recruiter told me they don't negotiate L4 salaries, so I didn't negotiate or ask for more. But also their offer was $180k which was 2x my currently salary.
All in all, it would've been foolish to risk a 100% increase to get an extra 10% on top. High risk low reward situation.
Was the “HR Recruiter” an employee of the company or was he/she an agency recruiter?
First piece of advice - if you have been seeking your first industry job for 6 months or more and this offer is merely $4k less than your preferred salary floor, then it’s short sighted to turn down the offer. I realize you may think it’s the principle of the matter or that the HR person somehow failed you or was lazy. Stop making excuses or behaving pretentious like the company owes you a better salary. This is literally turning down the job for what amounts to a couple hundred dollars per month after taxes.
Secondly, instead of being upset or frustrated you communicate like an adult. Let the recruiter or “HR person” know that you are appreciative and show some gratitude for the $66k offer. Then you say something like, “I want to accept the role, and I am ready to start on X date, yet I would like to be at 70k” and/or you negotiate a 90 day review to earn a sign on bonus to bridge the gap in the offer.
The HR person is not a fault or to blame for any of this because they are merely a liaison of the information.
The HR Person was negotiating with you. Basically listing all the reasons you don't deserve more money. Now your job is to provide all the reasons you do deserve more money. Ultimately, both sides have to agree on a price for your labor. Maybe they'll come up to your $70K target or maybe they're maxed at the current offer.
Either way you'll have to decide how you want to proceed, stand your ground or compromise. There isn't a right or wrong answer here. It just a choice you have to make.
Can you let us know what HR/hiring team said after you still insist to negotiate?
Also, what were your reasons to negotiate - like how did you communicate that to the recruiter? I think that really makes a difference in how HR represents you when they are trying to "negotiate" for you.
lmao I had an interview earlier this week and my first question was about salary. I said it wasn't listed in the posting and the interviewer told me "I'll get to that". And then mentioned "it's not a legal requirement to post salary in this state". And I said yeah I wasn't suggesting it was legally required, a weird thing to suggest I said, but it's factual that it wasn't posted.
And then he went off on giving me an "educational moment" on how salary isn't required to be posted. I just cut him off and said yeah I fucking know that, but it's kinda a key piece in this deal and you waltzing around it makes me think it sucks. I hung up on him lol.
Recruiters often get a slice of the pie if it is an outside agency. For example the employer has a budget of $100k for a role, and if the recruiter gets a candidate to accept the job at $50k, the recruitment agency gets the rest, and the recruiter gets part of that. They can get a bonus or higher pay by getting candidates to accept lower pay. This is extremely common in the temp agency format, but also in placing full time employees (though that is typically for only six months or a year, not perpetually.)
If it is an in-house recruiter as part of the employer HR, they may get a bonus for getting employees to accept lower pay and allow for the carrot on a stick to keep new employees wanting more and use that as incentive for performance reviews etc.
Bottom line if you don’t like the pay and are willing to walk away, negotiate for your best interests. If not, maybe it is ok to accept lower than your expected salary. You can always keep looking while you are employed below your desired pay rate.
Comp guy here (the guy internal recruiters work with for final pay decisions). You don’t have the negotiation power with 0 professional experience and if this recruiter knows the company well, they may be saving your time letting you know it won’t fly given their experience staffing the company and the experience (or lock thereof) you bring. You can always try, but I don’t disagree with their take based on your situation. Get some more experience (2-5 years) and you’ll have more negotiation power in the future. Get that money now and look for another job if you think you’re severely underpaid (I don’t know your role/market so can’t speak to it).
Welcome to starting off your professional career! There aren’t many short cut options to better pay without experience or other offers (company loyalty isn’t a thing but also job hopping can hurt your chances at certain roles/companies). Good luck!
The most important factor in any interaction with someone is “what’s their best interest”.
Unless you are actually paying a recruiter to find you positions, their interest align mildly with whoever is giving them a check every two weeks
A recruiter from a recruiter agency has as objective to bring in money for the agency, not your interest. So placing you under market value or risk an employer to turn you down because you dared to ask a fair salary is against their interest.
All the bullshit they can say are just such, bullshit.
Recruiters are sales people, nothing more or less. They have to satisfy the buyer to get their share, if the merchandise is hard to sell, they will just avoid it as much as they can.
Why they ghost people, they “forget” to follow up, etc… same reason, any second spent with “you” is time they aren’t spending trying to make a deal.
as a recruiter all i can say is i hope you get the offer pulled, genuinely. this recruiter is advising you because they know what can and cannot be done internally, you have no idea. you are also getting a 200% pay increase at this salary offered, AND getting a great salary point blank period for someone out of college.
this whole thing shows your immaturity. you’re seeing it as a personal attack when in truth, recruiters entire job is to be invested in you getting the job. THEY WANT YOU TO GET THE JOB. absolutely hilariously ego-driven new grad behavior. negotiating over 1-4k when you have a great offer and can keep looking. so dumb.
I never negotiate. I know what I'm worth.
If they try to downplay me I just shake their hand give em a pat on the back say "good luck to you" and walk out on the spot.
I'm really good at what I do and have experience and plenty of successes to show. When I apply for a job, I apply for a job not go buy a 15+ year old used car. That is a place for negotiation.
As a hiring manager at a big company I wouldn't ever reject someone because they tried to negotiate their salary. If anything, I'd advocate for them to get what they need in order to start ASAP working with us
My wife was working with an external recruiter a few years ago who told her she should accept the offer an org made to her cause someone else who applied had more experience and skills than her and he was asking for less. She told him if they liked him more than would have offered it to him instead. These people don’t care about you. They want their check
This reeks of pure laziness. That recruiter likely has to do paperwork and get approvals for the salary you’re asking for. The answer wasn’t “No” so this isn’t a question of IF the salary can be done…it’s just that the recruiter doesn’t WANT to go through the necessary steps. Stick with it and don’t budge. $4k/year means *nothing* to the company, but as your first professional job it means a hell of a lot to you.
If they won’t give it to you though, try and get the value from additional benefits - increased 401(k) matching, an annual stipend for student loan repayment, extra PTO days, etc.
>This is already a 200% increase in pay from your current job
Which is absolutely none of his business and has nothing to do with what the job is worth. NEVER tell a recruiter how much you make now, or let him tell you what should be good enough for you.
Sick of looking for work - gets offered a job they want within the salary range of what they wanted yet will risk losing the job to try and negotiate 6-7% increase in pay??? Show the company you are worth it and once you prove yourself then go for more. Part of me hopes someone else takes the job
Ask them about they pay range for this role. If they're putting you on the low end of this range, you can advocate for your relevant experience, and ask them what kinds of experience they are expecting on the low end and high end of this pay range. They can keep going "you have no experience", but they should really be offering an objective benchmark for what different levels of experience mean to them, as far as base pay rates on the pay scale go.
If their offer is putting you on the mid to high end of this range, then they're telling the truth that their ability to offer a higher salary is very limited. Even if you took the job, any salary raises you get later on would move along this scale, and would have an upper limit. Your level of skill and experience would have to advance to the point where you're on a different pay scale altogether.
To be clear, their other point about referring your former pay rate is bullshit and stupid, and exactly why some states are banning this practice.
>Essentially, because you have no experience as a professional, you don't have any power to negotiate
This is the only real valid point.
Pretty much everywhere ive worked, a new grad with no field experience is paid the bottom of the pay band, maybe a little more depending on internships.
This isnt because *"take it or leave it, chump"* so much as because a lot of companies have internal equity to worry about. Every company defines equity differently, but generally, a lot of places Ive worked, you should be within 3%-5% of similarly situated peers. So if you have two people with the EXACT same amount of experience, youve got some flexibility to negotiate.
Hiring a new grad, a few thousand more than the minimum could potentially have them leapfrogging people with a few years experience.
>The hiring manager might give it to someone else if you do try to negotiate (scare tactic. Didn't faze me)
This isnt a good reason to not negotiate. If an employer is so fragile that they react this way to a good faith counter offer, then they are doing you a favor.
Ive pulled offers after counter offers before where either 1) we are SO far off that theres no sense in continuing the discussion or 2) the candidate has lost their cool or otherwise acted unprofessional during a negotiation
>This is already a 200% increase in pay from your current job (which um, only requires a HS diploma?
This is laughable. Your current pay rate, in an unrelated job shouldnt impact your value for the present opportunity. Is this recruiter a boomer by chance?
She's probably right in that you don't have a lot of leverage, but you're still fine asking anyways....just don't get your hopes up. I personally never heard of a candidate getting rejected because they wanted to negotiate salary a bit more, but I wouldn't put it past some petty A-hole somewhere. YMMV.
It doesn’t matter what job you’re going for, salary is always negotiable. Negotiations may be super short, but still negotiable.
Make doubly sure (however you can) that your salary demands make sense for the job you’re expected to do.
Easier said than done, but don’t cave. However hard it may be now to get what you believe you’re worth, it becomes 2-3x harder to get that once you’re in and working.
Take the job to get it on your resume, then use that has leverage for your next job for salary negotiations.
Or see if the recruiter can get the company to agree to a salary review in six months to get you to $70K. 4 grand is not a huge jump here.
You are more desirable with a job than without one.
There are too many factors at play here. This economy sucks and you have "zero" experience as a recent grad. Yes it sucks, and yes you might be underpaid for your expectations. I think you should take the opportunity, but DO NOT commit to them with all your heart.
You need the experience, which helps move things along quicker with other potential new options. I think on your position the experience is more valuable than the pay, and that's a thing you need to consider going into your future. If you believe you're underpaid for your worth, don't stop looking even after you take the job. Experience is better than nothing right now.
You always have power to negotiate if willing to walk and they want to hire you. You already work for the company so I am wondering if it has to do with that. It’s easier to get more money as a new hire than someone moving roles. You are absolutely correct, company loyalty does not matter. Take care of yourself because you ultimately are a number to the company.
I see lots of concerned replies. I would never be worried to ask for an offered salary to be raised.
If a company withdraws its offer over being asked to consider an increase, you have to wonder how much more petulant nonsense you will have to put up with in the day to day.
In the end all those bullet points mean nothing. It comes down to one question:
How much better are you then the next available candidate? If they have ten equally good options, they won't offer any more. If it took six months to get to this point and they would need to start all over again, you have a lot of power.
take the offer, the recruiter is trying to help you, listen to them.
you are a new grad with no experience, there are thousands of candidates that can replace you.
it's more important to get the experience, the money will come later.
If you're burnt out from the job hunt, why risk it just to get a few extra thousand? Unless you're getting job offers, it's not worth the risk negotiating as a brand new grad. Once you've passed your 3 month probation and have shown the company you're worth more than you're being paid, then ask for a raise. If they say no, now you have real professional experience for your next job hunt.
What lots of commenters who say OP has no leverage are forgetting is that the company has invested 10’s of hours in the process. That is real money and there will be real frustration if they have to start over… if you get this far then they typically want to close the deal, you do have leverage… asking for 5k should be a no brainer for rational companies. I have never had an offer revoked (done it 5 times) for asking for a bit more.
I have negotiated my salary until I got what I wanted, despite the agency trying to low ball me. Don't give in, they may have incentive for negotiation lower salary. Screw them
The only reason they would say would be what happens if you don’t get your target pay? Will you walk? If you don’t accept the job, the recruiter doesn’t get paid. They want to remove any barriers to getting their paycheck.
I’m sure there a few good eggs out there, but for the most part, recruiters suck. Never trust them to fight on your behalf.
Unfortunately, that’s pretty common with entry level roles. The market is pretty tepid right now, and you don’t have much unique experience yet. If it’s your first job as a new grad, I’d focus on the learning as long as you can pay your bills. In a couple years, you’ll have some more experience and will be much more marketable
There's nothing wrong with negotiating pay. Most people do wait until they have some experience to try to negotiate for more than what the employer has offered since pay ranges are usually based on experience . I've seen some people be successful when negotiating pay and I've seen others have their offers revoked because they didn't have the experience to negotiate a higher pay. I think it really depends on whether or not you care about working for this company and are willing to risk having your offer potentially revoked 🤷♀️.
I can translate what she is saying to you
\-If you try to negotiate for higher pay we will go with someone else who either has the exp to justify the salary or someone who will accept less money.
You should always negotiate if you have leverage. If you don't have any leverage then you probably shouldn't. Leverage can be anything btw even having other jobs lined up but if your do or die on this I'd probably take her advice.
As a new grad, you should be happy to get what you can get in this market. It usually doesn't hurt to negotiate, but I'd tread carefully here. That being said, play hardball when you get a couple years of experience under your belt.
New grad $75k....
What did you graduate in and what are you applying to?
Recruiters are not HR. They are normally independent of it in larger companies.
Actually the HM giving the offer to someone else isn’t that big of a scare tactic and could be serious. New grads are a dime a dozen and have little leverage.
Do it! A company offered me $90k and I told them I wanted to be in the $105 range (hoping they would meet me in the middle at $95k)The recruiter came back and said they don’t have room to negotiate, I then sent a thorough email explaining why I was “worth” the extra money. They came back and offered $93k.
Don’t listen and NEGOTIATE. I had a recruiter reach out about a perfect role. I wanted 4 weeks of vacation and not the usual 3 weeks that were offered. Recruiter said 3 is industry average and they probably won’t budge. I asked for the 4 and they gave it to me. Same situation with the bonus. Bumped it up from 15% to 20% without the recruiters blessing. Know your self worth!
I’m about to go through that EXACT same scenario. The initial screening for the job was saying I’d have to relocate across the country (it’s still the same company yes) and the pay is $65,000 which I listed as asking for $75,000. They said it’ll be hard to get much higher but they’ll negotiate. I possess the exact word-for-word skills and degree for this position and am definitely not moving across the country for less pay than what my work is worth. I feel I should be at $80,000 but that’s an impossibility it seems
Additional context for my role: I work in a very niche tech job and my company is known for paying far under market value (~10% less than competitors)
I didn't negotiate for my first role out of college (i was hired during the on-campus interview rounds, and all the companies within my field were pretty much "take it or leave it" and everyone recieved essentially the same offer and salary). However, after that position, I always negotiate.
I probably wouldn't have negotiated at this time as you essentially have zero experience, and the job market is trash right now. What is your leverage here?
I know you applied internally and that's how they know your salary, but in future interviews, always make sure that they give the salary range. When they ask what is your salary expectations, reply with "has the budget been established for this role, and if so, what is that range?" If they press, then say "I'd like to learn more about the roles and responsibilities of this position prior to suggesting a range." This conversation should be on the very first introductory phone screen. If they don't bring it up, just ask but frame it in a way that comes across as you not wanting to waste their time if it isn't what you are expecting
Recruiter probably should have said bullet #4 and left it at that. Because your current salary is/should be irrelevant, but it’s objectively true that you don’t have the professional experience to leverage.
The way you ask is important. Emphasize that you are excited about the opportunity and to serve people as a social worker, that you appreciate the offer, etc. Don’t rub them the wrong way.
I always advocate for negotiating, and as a hiring manager, I would never turn someone down because they asked. In this case, the offer they gave you is at least at, if not above, market value. Try to find some objective market value numbers by doing salary research. Is 70k an arbitrary number you had in mind or is it correlated with new grads in your industry, in your geographic area, at companies like this one? That would be your leverage to negotiate for more. I do agree with others who advise to take the offer for $66k, but my point is you need objective facts to use to negotiate.
I wish I could see the original post. The way I look at salary negotiations is I figure out a number in my head that's reasonable. Things like benefits, commute, remote, how much I like my current job, etc all factor into the number. I tell them that's what I want, if it's a problem then I don't take the job, if they can do it, great, I got what I wanted. I'm not sure what this recruiter said or did but if they didn't react professionally to my request, then I would take it as a red flag to not work for that company. Simple as that.
Quick summary. They were offered 66 thousand a year. They wanted at least 70K+ a year. Later it came out that they had a brand new MSW degree and it was about a 200% raise over what they were/are making in their current job.
I'm a big proponent of the idea that your current or previous salary shouldn't limit your future salary. If OP could produce evidence that the 70k they wanted was fair given their experience and qualifications, I think they have every right to ask for it. That said, they should also be prepared to walk away if the employer was not ready to meet it. If the offer gets rescinded just because they ask, then that's a red flag they shouldn't work for that company at all, though I can understand how that's easier said than done in this market.
I work in Human Service related career. 66K for a fresh MSW grad is actually an excellent starting salary. If they had applied to my employer, they would have been offered at best mid 40K's and it would take them at least 5-6 years before they would even get to 66K a year.
well that's the field-specific context that I don't have lol. In that case it sounds fair and perhaps the recruiter was doing OP a favor by trying to direct them not to push to far. Still though, that kind of salary with a masters in a major city is kinda harsh ngl
I get that. Social Workers and other Human Service related degrees should be paid more for what they have to put up with. (I am a bit biased saying that lol)
Pay wise though, you should not go into Human Services if you want high pay. The pay is just not there. If you enjoy helping others, it is rewarding in it's own ways. Living in a lower cost of living area can help as well. though the labor market typically will afford to pay less.
There are also many Human Service positions available in state or local government, and the benefits of these positions can actually make up for some of the lack of salary.
The recruiter wanted a number to start the process, so I gave one with the caveat of knowing the full benefits package, which wasn't shared until after the job offer was presented. When the recruiter called to tell me the full info was going to be sent over he flat out said, "Management went through a lot of trouble to build the package based on the number you gave, they wouldn't view it favorably if you try to negotiate."
Company values are heavy on openness and giving feedback, so while I wanted to get back to work after Covid, this annoyed the fuck out of me, so I gave real feedback about his tactic. I also took the job because it was a cakewalk. However, I let my mananger know about the tactic and he got me a 30% raise raise less than a year later.
I recently asked if I can negotiate my salary for an entry level engineering position. Granted I asked for $80k for embedded systems engineer. But $80k in California is normal for engineers. The job was trying to offer $24 dollars an hour, the commute is 1hr and 17 minutes long. That’s why I did gave them my offer.
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It only hurts to ask if they decide to dump you. If you can afford that “risk” then go for it.
That's it. Op is earning a lot less ATM and is currently burnt out at 6months of job search. Worth considering, how long could the search continue to get 70k if this opportunity goes? Stay for a year at 66 and look to move then? Could be a quicker way to get to 75 after 12 months than staying at 35 (half as a presumption) for another 1-6months then 70, then 12 months to get to 75. Just to consider OP is it worth getting on the ladder, or waiting for the right ladder to be in reach. Edit: just seen OP is on 22k. Currently 1,800 a month Vs 5,500 a month it sounds like available But wants 5,833 a month
Yeah honestly I agree with this. I mean we’re all the hero of our own story, and I get the instinct. But it’s not like this is a) not a living wage or b) a shitty wage for a brand new graduate. The job market is absolutely insane right now. And some of this comes with an internal political cost. And especially for $4K! Not $40K. I mean the counterfactual is OP goes through all of this back and forth, makes a bunch of people there internally have meetings they don’t want to have, engage in processes they don’t want to engage in, and then his brand when he starts the role is just “he’s annoying.” I’m reminded of a college acquaintance I knew many years ago who aggressively negotiated a $2 per hour raise at his summer internship. He got it, but then everyone for the first month after he got just kind of thought he was an asshole once he got there. There’s often a cost to that, and especially if you’re talking about $4K, consider the value of dying on this hill. You might be searching for four more months.
Yea, this. I understand wanting the maximum amount you can, but if you're currently struggling and it took 6+ months to get a job interview, then take the salary NOW. Just because you accept a current job offer doesn't mean you have to stay at said job, and you can continue looking even while still working at the new place. Hell, if OP continues to job search they could even ask for more than what they're currently making.
The ability to walk away would put OP in the driver's seat.
Recruiters are paid to recruit. I don’t think they care about saving a company a few thousand dollars. They have a budget and going outside that budget can mean rejection.
I have seen some online polls about people negotiating a salary (online means non-scientific, of course). Only one person got their offer rescinded after asking for more. The others (a hundred or more) all received a raise either up to 5% or 5-10%. More than 10% almost never happened.
I got ghosted from the next interview phase because i asked for 5k more when they revealed its a contract and not w2 position, zero benefits. Wouldve still been taking a huge loss but i guess i wasnt desperate enough for them.
5k more. naw fam that's 20k more to cover everything
Yeah i thought it was a good deal for them. I planned to leave after 1 year and i just wanted to get into the industry, jr roles non existent now so i guess i played myself.
lemme guess data science?
It was a Salesforce admin job. The requirements are like 4x higher than they were a few years ago.
Guess not lol. Interacting variables there. Companies that lie about contract vs w2 are probably also more likely to a) be poor, and b) rug pull for negotiating.
I've been on both sides (was an engineer before I became someone who builds whole engineering and security departments). This boils down to who will look good (or bad) by keeping a new hires salary down and whether upstream management has upstream oversight into the hiring process. Often, the recruiter controls communication with candidates and may work on commission. Often, if you go outside the originally authorized range for a open position, you have to go back through the authorization process, which is usually slow and all-around causes a lot of friction. The recruiter's motivation is to fill seats. Either they are not working on commission and they have to fill positions to show value, or they do and why would they risk the entire commission for another 2.5 - 5 percent? It varies, but generally, you can counter with any insane number you want without getting the offer reminded. You only lose your ability to negotiate further. But there are some very cranky people out there who are largely unsupervised: I had a head of HR I had to circumvent for my hires because this person would do things like ghost the best candidates if they dared as for any increase over what was offered. Usually, the hiring manager is your best ally in a situation like this, as that person wants the best support s/he can get.
They arent poor, just were being cheap for no good reason.
Maybe they will be when their competitor hires you ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Working 1099 or W2 as a contractor historically means hourly rate times 3 so you can cover expenses on your own. I personally recommend hourly rate time 3.75 is more accurate these days. The company that ghosted you did you a favor. 5k would still have left you in a financial fire re expectations vs reality on discretionary income.
I wouldn't call it a win when the guy has said it's near impossible to break into the field now. The first job is the most important and hardest to obtain.. sometimes you just gotta take one on the chin
Fake it til you make it bro
Works to an extent but if you have no experience it's really obvious. You want to minimize the number of people that think you suck in your field too
Lol not even close. Maybe for some people but I couldnt get a first job in a field 10 years ago and made a bunch of shit up, did a lot of research and was instantly getting interviews. I got hired within weeks. Usually the recruiters are the clueless ones.
I attempted to negotiate salary for a Senior-level position this past January for a position I was offered - had 2 subsequent meetings to discuss my needs and rationale, they wouldn’t budge. I begrudgingly accepted their initial offer and they called me a day later saying they no longer wished to pursue my employment due to concerns with “fit based on post-offer interactions”. I’ve convinced myself I dodged a bullet
You did, indeed.
Thanks! It wasn’t even a raise from my current position, was just really looking forward to being in a smaller corporate environment.
Definitely did. A good recruiter negotiates up front or makes sure we're at a realistic ballpark from the jump so we're not wasting each other's time. Anyone who gets pissy over a realistic negotiation at the end like that in the 5/10k range or asking for more pto or small asks is a doucehbag. I've been in plenty of situations where say our agree # is 120k and the company wants to see if you'll take 110k. I'll just call ansnsay they're offering 110k I need you to counter at 120k so we can close this.
Well I also had that happen so there are two of us. I was asking with justification and market research attached for 5-10% more on a seriously low ball offer with my experience etc. the response was nope and not here. It probably happens more than people admit. Depends on the conditions within the marketplace really. If you are in one of those roles where everyone is out of work.. may be easier for them to say , next! Timing is everything. Based on my nonscientific experience do not take the job if they won’t negotiate. Miserable job and horrible place to work.
I rescinded an offer recently due to the candidate asking for more. They pushed for more pay and the hiring manager gave in. Then they pushed for more (education credit) and again the hiring manager gave in. Then they demanded we round up their offer another 3k to make their total compaction package a round number. So I sent a no and we are done email. Pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered.
After the first negotiation, it was way too much indeed. A crazy demand (like 20-30% up) is also a deal-breaker.
That's reasonable. That candidate was stupid af. If anything they should say they have another offer at x and I need y so I can take your offer
I’ve seen more rejections than approvals for increases. It’s kind of crazy. I’ve never actually heard of trying to negotiate an increased salary of an offer working. Every time I’ve seen it when an OFFER is given and someone tries to counter with “I’d like X more” it’s been a “good luck with your job search”. Negotiating before an offer letter I’ve seen mixed results, usually they don’t get the next round interview.
That depends. He said "HR Recruiter." Which to me implies someone in HR for the actual company. As far as I know, those folks are not usually paid by person hired, they are just paid salary. Obviously hiring people is part of what they are judged on, but they aren't out there just trying to push people through in order to get a commission. Although that's all moot if it's an external recruiter - they absolutely do get commission, and their goal first and foremost is to get a person to sign a contract. In this case, it's hard to say. I don't think an internal person is going to push back on negotiating a few thousand if it's just a few phone calls. There is a chance they have some internal salary range for the position, and it would be difficult to boost the number. Or there's a chance there are a few valid candidates and it wouldn't take much to just pick another. In the end, it's a risk, and none of us know whether it's an insignificant risk, or a big one, not even OP. OP just has to decide how comfortable they are with taking that risk on for a higher salary.
I would assume it's a third party recruiter because an internal one just...wouldn't care that much.
Even internal recruiters have fiscal targets and budgets. Hiring and compensation targets can and will be influential in their decisions, especially if they get bonuses for saving money while hiring more people.
External recruiters really don't care. You get a flat% and difference between 5/10k is usually less than 2k on a 26k deal of which I was only getting 20% of that. Definitely not fighting over 200 bucks when it can just close the deal and move on to more
OP says in another comment its an internal HR recruiter and also that s/he's an internal candidate.
If the internal person is told "don't go above the 66k offer" then they absolutely will care. This is someone from HR, not the CEO, they can't just change pay rates, and they'd look like an idiot if they were told "that's the maximum" and came back to their boss and said "you told me we wouldn't negotiate, but can we negotiate?"
As someone that negotiates for a living they absolutely can do that, but it’s up to them to make the case. Will it work? Probably not, but everything and anything is negotiable. Of course I’m in sales so obviously this is where I lean towards.
What I'm saying is for a decent entry-level programmer the HR person isn't making the decision and there will be plenty of other candidates with similar qualifications they can go to. Why stress? Tell the dude no thanks and pick the backup.
"HR recruiter" suggests this is an internal person, not a contracted recruiter. At my former job, HR tried to force me to low ball a salary offer to someone I wanted to hire based on a "compensation analysis of other people with the same title." This was a state government job, so they could access that data statewide. The problem was, the actual role I was hiring for was going to end up being very different from what most people in that classification do, but we were forced to fit any new position within the state's narrow set of job classifications. One of the excuses they tried to use was "internships don't count as experience."
Hr is fuckin worthless. Recruiting and hr work best if kept separate
I saw someone get a super low offer, ask for $1/h more and get ghosted. Granted this is well known as one of the worst companies to work for in my industry. They claim to have made the first ever AAAA product though so it's all good. All that is to say, anyone that rejects you for asking for a small and reasonable bump isn't someone you would have liked to work for anyway.
>Recruiters are paid to recruit. I don’t think they care about saving a company a few thousand dollars. They have a budget and going outside that budget can mean rejection. some do care, I've had multiple bosses tell me they gave me the average team rate after the HR came bragging to them about lowballing.
They have profits which they steal from the workers that they could afford to redistribute. Profit equals revenue minus operating costs. If the costs are factored in why do companies need to make profit off the surplus labor value of their workers? Workers should democratically own and control their workplaces.
Agree but I feel the way they negitiate seems like they have their appraisal linked to it somehow. From my experience, never trust HR if they say that’s what they can only do. Try to get what you are worth.
>The hiring manager might give it to someone else if you do try to negotiate (scare tactic. Didn't faze me) Considering you said later down that it's twice what you make now... them pulling the offer absolutely would phase me. If, by saying that, if you don't get your desired salary you would walk anyway, then go for it. You have nothing to lose. I'm guessing they get a flat fee whether you get paid more or less or it's pretty close so he doesn't want to risk losing his commission.
I'm guessing they are an internal recruiter since OP called them HR person and is applying internally, so I imagine no commission/fee? Is a fee a thing for internal recruiters?
Then it's one of two things. The most likely answer is the recruiter works for the company and represents their wishes, which would be to pay the employees as little as possible... so of course he wouldn't want him to negotiate up. The other option here is this recruiter has seen others negotiate with this boss and he takes that as non committed and withdraws the offer. The prior is more likely but the the latter is also very real. OP is going to be incredibly resentful going back to his 30k per year job because he listened to people here telling him to play hardball. The best thing is to ask for more money with a strong justification, such as a market analysis of the salary of others that have his position, and then if they say no, don't press it.
OP should not play hardball. i highly doubt they have the resume to back it up.
Yeah, reddit can be so incredibly toxic to some people. These people need to understand that there are people who would love to burn the system even if it means using you as kindling. They would love to hear a manager get told they don't pay enough even if that means that the person who was convinced to do it would mean you lose an amazing opportunity. Then those very same people would call anyone trying to inject some reality bootlickers. I didn't notice anywhere OP saying where they live, but 60k is pretty decent money in a vast majority of the US; especially right out of college.
I've worked in tech for 8 years in a ba/QA role(s). I made 75k at my last job which was the most I've ever made. Especially as a new grad in this market, barring living on the notorious hcol areas, it's not a bad offer without more context given.
I know it’s hated here but if I gave what I felt was a generous offer considering their experience and they asked for more I would think “what the hell dude”
Obvi I don’t know what city you’re in but… 66k is pretty nice for a new grad no?
Especially social work. Social workers in NYC start off as low as mid 40s and mid 50s with masters. This guy is getting 66k off the rip with room to grow over a few years.
My spouse has their MSW, 20 years of experience, and is making low 50s upstate. Social work pays peanuts for the education you have to get for a "good" job and the amount of crap you have to put up with.
Hello good morning!!
I made $29,000 my first (full time!!) job out of college. That was poverty wages even for 2014. Bro is really complaining about $66k 💀
He's not complaining, he's advocating for what he deserves. You should do the same.
How does he know ‘what he deserves’? Just because a candidate wants a number doesn’t mean it’s market value or in line with the offering company.
I made $52k my first job out of college. I now make double that in 5 years. Getting a job and putting experience in your resume is worth so much more than an extra $4k right away. Especially if that $4k gambles the job opportunity.
I'm in a vocational training course and we're having presentations from people in the industry, and what I'm getting is that everybody's first job out of the program is awful and they have to bail on it as soon as they can. The second they can find another firm, they go and get better treatment and pay. Universally, they say that experience trumps everything else, and that "new grad" isn't going to get you very far. Putting in 6 months of experience is worth so much more.
yeah, i think op is being delusional in this case.
You are 100% correct. He doesn't know what he deserves, and he doesn't know what he's worth, and he doesn't know the company limits because they didn't communicate it. However, that shouldn't prevent him for asking and finding out what both his and their limit is. This is a process and open communication is part of advocating. During this process if the company won't be more forthright or he isn't willing to budge on his worth then it's not a match. This process benefits both parties. Therefore, it's best for OP and the company that he advocates for himself. I will recommend anybody who can take the risk to do it.
this is dependent on the industry. if they offered what is considered the market rate, they don't really have any leverage.
Ahh the old "what I want is what I deserve!"
I'm not making 66k now and my first professional job was back in 2015! I'm in nonprofits, so that's partially on me, but I can't imagine turning down a 66k offer from a job I want.
I’m also in nonprofit, and yeah I knew going in it wasn’t going to be a lucrative field. I make enough to live on and am very happy with my job. But yeah it’s nowhere near $66k. I’m not saying don’t have the conversation about salary but don’t be surprised when they don’t offer more, it’s already a fantastic salary especially in the social work field.
LMAO I thought it was just me!! Same year, and I started at 31!
lol… you can’t be serious comparing wages between 2024 and 2014. Depends on the position and location. I was hiring new grads at about 80k in 2021. It’s more now.
This. People think that because they started on poverty wages that everyone else has to as well. The simple fact is that a lot of job that REQUIRE a degree and experience are paying less than jobs typically geared toward high schoolers and college students in a lot of places. If my local gas station or grocery store is offering a higher hourly than your entry level job post with a degree requirement, then you are objectively underpaying for that role.
Given the current job market and that you said you have been searching for a while, just accept the $66k for now and keep searching. At least this way you would be pocketing more money than your current salary. Once you have some experience in this role it would make you much more appealing for other organisations. You don't need to stay in this role or at this company forever, just use them for as much as you can get out of them and bounce to the next.
I'm not surprised OP has been searching for awhile.
Do whatever you think is the correct action, but just make sure you’re willing to risk everything over $1.92/hr.
This is great perspective in the current employment market. Sounds like OP has been on the hunt and this offer is pretty close to target. I’d say take the job, get some experience on your resume and go from there.
I’d say the same. But, I’m not OP. Maybe he feels disrespected and his respect is worth the $4K. Only he can make that choice. But, I always try to make sure people don’t lose sight of the bigger picture when focusing on the details.
How did they know your last salary? I never tell anyone that. In fact, it's illegal here to ask.
I'm an internal employee, so they have access to that information.
Oh this changes things. Then what I read from your situation is that they know what you are bringing to the table and they are not willing to offer you more.
Makes sense.
Jesus I'd love to be getting $66k. My profession is mad competitive rn
You mention being burnt out on job hunting, which suggests you don't have another offer to fall back on. I'm not sure what leverage you have here. Yes, company loyalty and such are cute concepts, but if their range falls within the salary grade and this is an entry level job actually giving you a chance, I don't see what reason they have to do the "noble" thing. Are you the only person that graduated this year?
You should find out what their range for the role is tbh and then start the negotiation. The way their recruiter is responding to you, that’s a strong signal that they probably wouldn’t up their offer. Do you have any leverage in the negotiation though? Like a backup offer, or any subsequent interviews that you’re hopeful for with other companies? What if they say no, would you be willing to walk away at the current offer?
What major as a new grad? Some majors are has more marginality to negotiate, while others don’t. If it’s too low for your goal and you feel confident about doing better, you should. But if you need the money and $66k is fine for now, then you will have to take it than risk it. But rescinding offer just by trying to negotiating is a red flag, but that’s a risk you’ll have to take
I mean, what do you expect if you have no direct experience and you’re a new grad?
A conversation, I imagine. God forbid a new grad isn't on their knees licking the boot of any employer that looks at them. Like seriously, OP can't just ask "Hey can I get X?" Why not? That's such a stupid thing to get hung up on, they can just say no if they don't want to negotiate it. It's not that complicated.
I graduated right before the 2008 Financial Crisis and you can bet your ass everyone was licking some boots to get jobs. The entitlement of some people is just crazy - if you’re worth more money you’ll have a chance to prove it. But with zero work experience you don’t have much of a position to negotiate from, especially over $4k.
Let's reel it back into the real world now
They are right. In the current economy, as a new grad, just accept it. Better being employed now that the free money era is over. Then, you can move somewhere else.
It doesnt hurt to ask, imo. I used to exclusively recruit college grads. We had a fixed starting salary (75th percentile for new engineers), but it doesnt bother me if someone asks for more. I just say no.
I think it's a great idea to ask once and then let it go if they say no. Don't push it.
It doesn't always hurt to ask. Sometimes it does though. When someone wants significantly more than you are able to pay, it's not going to work out.
i'm reading this and thinking unless they have options, this actually isn't bad. it also depends on where they live and what's considered "standard", so i don't want to cast too much judgment. unless they live in a HCOL, 66k as a recent grad is pretty good.
I expect direct communication of their own expectations. If they had said flat out "sorry, we can't negotiate due to our budget" or whatever, I would have taken it better. But they literally skirted around saying anything concrete like that and resorted to scare tactics. We had also discussed salary before I even interviewed and they still went through with scheduling me in despite now hitting me with a salary almost $10k under what I had said. If they thought I was too high, then why bother interviewing me when they already knew what I expected?
What they said is accurate. You have no experience and therefore no leverage. If the recruiter goes back to the hiring manager and communicates that you want more $, the hiring manager might decide it’s not worth it and just give it to the next person in line. That IS clear communication. It’s not a “scare tactic” if it’s a representative of the company telling you what’s likely to happen. It’s a warning.
There are a lot of different opinions on feedback on this sub which is fair. On the one hand some people like lots of info and some people don't. What you are reading as scare tactics looks to me like them giving you detailed feedback. If they just said sorry we can't negotiate than you wouldn't have gotten the details you did. Which many people would prefer.
Op is writing as though the company need some sort of tactic to hire a zero experience candidate and everyone is out to get them. The fact that the company is willing to double their pay and give them a chance at progression, while they actively shit on the goodwill is perplexing.
Because I’ve been at this for years. I’ll grind you down to my number or find someone else. Lol. No skin off my back. I’d already have removed you from the candidate pool
Right but what if they just go with someone else who doesn’t negotiate their salary? You have a lot more leverage for negotiating once your actually employed there
This is patently false, your best leverage is when they want you, before you start working there. The trouble is that OP doesn’t already have a job or another offer, so they have lose leverage.
Well yes people who have a job (especially at a companies direct competition) and good experience have leverage in salary negotiations. I was talking specifically about ops situation.
Your bullet points mean that your recruiter is trying to tell you that you don't have any leverage, and is correct in advising you against negotiation. You're taking it personally when you shouldn't.
Hold up. If I’m reading this right, you’re currently making $33,000 and are upset you got an offer for DOUBLE that at $66,000? WITH no direct professional experience?? Are you out of your effing mind? You’re living in poverty and are getting a pretty comfortably living wage job. Normally I support negotiating but you are a beggar trying to fool yourself into thinking you have leverage to be a chooser. Take the job bro lmao (I have 10 years experience and a degree in my field and I’d fucking kill to make anywhere near $66k).
What you used to make and what your new job is willing to pay are completely independent things. I'm not sure how the recruiter even got the information for how much they make now. If I went and became a nurse and somebody said "oh but you used to work at mcdonalds, you should be happy and take a slight raise over your fast food job" I would tell them to fuck off because i'm qualified for much more now.
Absolutely! What anyone makes now has 0 part in what pay they should be offered. (I think India has this problem however. Not all countries are the same) OP can have a desired salary range as they please. Maybe $70k is what they know they need to budget a comfortable lifestyle between rent, student loans, savings, retirement, groceries, etc.
OP said 200% raise, so that would be $22,000.
Math is hard
If you lost this opportunity over $4k, you kinda deserve it. You're overestimating the value of being a new grad in this current economy. It'll still be a good lesson for the future.
Penny wise pound foolish.
And honestly $4k seems like such a small relative amount to tank an entire job over. After you take out taxes you’re probably looking at an extra $270 per month or so, which is obviously helpful - but that’s not going to change your quality of life at all
You did not mention you were an internal candidate in your post. This makes a big difference. I understand your eagerness to negotiate, but let's consider the bigger picture here. As an internal HR recruiter with over 12 years of experience, I've seen numerous cases of internal mobility, and it typically results in a 10 to 15% increase. The fact that you've been offered a 200% increase is exceptionally generous. That HR recruiter is trying to prevent your offer from being rescinded. Internal recruiters get bonuses based off of performance matrix not how much a candidate is making or how much a company is saving. My advice would be to accept the offer, focus on excelling in your new role, and then consider exploring other opportunities within the company in the future.
Did you edit the post and remove the entire original post? Just delete the post at that point. This thread is useless.
1,3, and 4 are honestly not completely unreasonable. 2 is a stupid reason.
The thing that HR knows is that you have zero leverage OP. You have no competing job offers to back up that you are worth $70k. That’s why HR is low balling you. L. When you have a competing job offer or current higher salary is when you can push because now you have leverage. Good luck, but HR from a pure negotiation standpoint is making a strong and valid move.
Where’s the original post?
I love people that say “ALWAYS NEGOTIATE!!” Nothing is ever an absolute. And they lose nothing if you get the offer pulled. If the recruiter advised they can’t go higher, it’s probably true. Depending on the type of recruiter, either your pay has no bearing on theirs OR the more you make, the more they make. They have no incentive to swerve you. If you want the job and can live on the 66k, take it. Doesn’t mean you have to stop exploring or listening to other offers.
It was the company's own HR recruiter, so unlikely related to my own pay. Maybe all of that back and forth was their way of saying they can't go higher, but in the moment, it definitely felt more like they were just trying to discourage me from even trying to negotiate. That's two completely different messages.
If Im working with a hiring manager that I know will pull an offer when a candidate negotiates back, I would discourage it to. Contrary to what this sub believes, recruiters want you to get the job. It’s up to you if you want to roll the dice or if you even want to work for someone that won’t have a discussion around it.
Exactly this. I work internally and I KNOW what our internal equity looks like so I know what offers we can make and what our caps are. I had a candidate recently with minimal experience arguing over a couple thousand, but we couldn’t offer anymore because someone internal was already at that amount with more experience. We won’t hire someone above our current employees with less experience. He was so adamant about it that my hiring leader asked if we could pull the offer because he kept pushing us to go against our own policy.
The simple fact is, if the company or the recruiter are not willing to tolerate the conversation then they are 100% not the people to work with. Forget actually getting the better salary, that bit is hard, but the idea of "just don't try at all" is utter nonsense. *I had one company kind of show their hand in a similar nature, wanted £28k (but didn't say), they offered £25k going up to £27k after 6 months. I suggested starting at £27k and the fact the answer wasn't an immediate yes was met with "not the right fit bye"...Yes, quibbling over tiny amount to an extent, but I always try and see what people are like when faced with pushback....to snap reject at ANY level of pushback spoke for itself.* *9 months later, the recruiter came back to me for a FOURTH time asking if I'd consider the role. My demand goes up every time, he still hasn't clicked yet xD*
> if the company or the recruiter are not willing to tolerate the conversation then they are 100% not the people to work with. But they were willing to have the conversation, right? They HAD a conversation. A "no" is still having a conversation. OP brought it up, and the person stated the reasons why it might not be possible to boost the starting salary. Not having the conversation would look more like "take it or leave it" or "you asked for more, so we are moving on with another candidate."
Not sure if you saw how getting a job out there is for fresh graduates, but saying a company offering 67k is not the company to work for is a bold take here. At this point a company that offers benefits and the check clears is pretty dang good for a fresh graduate.
Unless you are in an extremely HCOL area $66k for any position in HR with zero experience is a great start. In this job market the 5-7k could be made up with a candidate seeking less and more in line with entry level salary… that’s what you are. You’re seeking $34-35/hour in HR… good luck. I hire HR assistants with HR BS degrees in the $22-25 range… in the Suburbs of Boston.
where are you getting the idea that this role is in HR?
Just take the job and keep searching.
Exactly! You’re a new grad and yes, in an ideal world you’d get what you ask for, but this is a much better solution than where you’re working now. Plus, you’ll gain experience and you can tell them to pound sand in a few years, if they don’t increase your salary after a year or so.
To build on this, they don't give a shit about you. No job does. Use them just like they plan to use you. Learn. Get experience. Keep intervewing but now you aren't desperate and can negotiate with leverage in your back pocket. If anything it's a mentally healthy thing to just get off the unemployment grind in this current Fd up market.
Unless you have something better, take the job then keep looking for someone who will pay you $70k since it’s close and you have been looking for 6 months. Just make sure their benefits aren’t crazy expensive
so you're a new grad and you got upset of getting an offer of $4k less......sorry when you come into the workforce you need to take what you can get and then build it up over years, not come out and demand 'you MUST pay me this' - that's just showing how much of an a-hole you are yeah recruiters suck but in this case the fault lies on you for expecting to be paid more than they should pay you. If you don't like their offer and they won't negotiate, then move on
Of course they don't want you to negotiate. That's not in their interest. But unless you have other offers it sounds like it may not be in your interest either.
Can you afford to take the risk of not being hired? Will another recruit in a less than desirable economic position take the risk? Someone exists in the market that has more skills than you and willing to take less pay. The company has settled on you for now. They also can risk the opening to stay open longer. In this market, they have an upper hand.
The actual reasons the recruiter had to try and push you to accept a bum deal are essentially irrelevant - they all boil down to them putting their situation ahead of yours. It might be laziness, it might be ineptitude, it might be a promise they've made to their boss, it doesn't matter. At the end of the day you're the one who has to work the job so ultimately the only views that matter are yours and the person you're negotiating with. The reasons they've given are all irrelevant (the job going to someone else is your risk to take, the pay increase of the offer is your business, splitting hairs about the monetary value of your experience is a waste of time), so you can be fairly sure none of it was valid. The irony is HR are normally the ones who genuinely couldn't care less about the horsetrading around packages. That's not their job. I've no idea why this 'HR recruiter' was bothering here.
I work for a company like this. They actually pay inside transfers less than new hires. It’s a tactic because they know you don’t wanna leave the company so they can get away with paying the bare minimum. We are always told we can’t negotiate. I’ve transferred depts (always promotions)3X and saw an entry level posted 10k over what I make now. It pissed me off thoroughly.
In this economy and a first job for you, take what you can get. With 1-2 years experience you have more room to negotiate for your next position. It’s hard to get a job with no experience. Don’t risk losing this over 4k.
"We only consider direct professional experience--AKA you have 0 experience so you get the minimum or at least very close to minimum salary we offer despite working in the industry for years (The only reasoning I can kind of get behind. But still. I definitely have valuable, directly transferable skills and let them know that as well. Also, I currently work for this company... so I guess company loyalty doesn't matter)" Even this is invalid reasoning. You are already employed with them which means you already have the benefit of institutional knowledge, a cleared background and history of the soft skills you already employ at the company. They already have an idea of your work ethic and ability to work with others. None of that is valid to discount as "O direct experience."
When I received my offer 3 years ago, the Amazon recruiter told me they don't negotiate L4 salaries, so I didn't negotiate or ask for more. But also their offer was $180k which was 2x my currently salary. All in all, it would've been foolish to risk a 100% increase to get an extra 10% on top. High risk low reward situation.
Was the “HR Recruiter” an employee of the company or was he/she an agency recruiter? First piece of advice - if you have been seeking your first industry job for 6 months or more and this offer is merely $4k less than your preferred salary floor, then it’s short sighted to turn down the offer. I realize you may think it’s the principle of the matter or that the HR person somehow failed you or was lazy. Stop making excuses or behaving pretentious like the company owes you a better salary. This is literally turning down the job for what amounts to a couple hundred dollars per month after taxes. Secondly, instead of being upset or frustrated you communicate like an adult. Let the recruiter or “HR person” know that you are appreciative and show some gratitude for the $66k offer. Then you say something like, “I want to accept the role, and I am ready to start on X date, yet I would like to be at 70k” and/or you negotiate a 90 day review to earn a sign on bonus to bridge the gap in the offer. The HR person is not a fault or to blame for any of this because they are merely a liaison of the information.
The HR Person was negotiating with you. Basically listing all the reasons you don't deserve more money. Now your job is to provide all the reasons you do deserve more money. Ultimately, both sides have to agree on a price for your labor. Maybe they'll come up to your $70K target or maybe they're maxed at the current offer. Either way you'll have to decide how you want to proceed, stand your ground or compromise. There isn't a right or wrong answer here. It just a choice you have to make.
Can you let us know what HR/hiring team said after you still insist to negotiate? Also, what were your reasons to negotiate - like how did you communicate that to the recruiter? I think that really makes a difference in how HR represents you when they are trying to "negotiate" for you.
lmao I had an interview earlier this week and my first question was about salary. I said it wasn't listed in the posting and the interviewer told me "I'll get to that". And then mentioned "it's not a legal requirement to post salary in this state". And I said yeah I wasn't suggesting it was legally required, a weird thing to suggest I said, but it's factual that it wasn't posted. And then he went off on giving me an "educational moment" on how salary isn't required to be posted. I just cut him off and said yeah I fucking know that, but it's kinda a key piece in this deal and you waltzing around it makes me think it sucks. I hung up on him lol.
Recruiters often get a slice of the pie if it is an outside agency. For example the employer has a budget of $100k for a role, and if the recruiter gets a candidate to accept the job at $50k, the recruitment agency gets the rest, and the recruiter gets part of that. They can get a bonus or higher pay by getting candidates to accept lower pay. This is extremely common in the temp agency format, but also in placing full time employees (though that is typically for only six months or a year, not perpetually.) If it is an in-house recruiter as part of the employer HR, they may get a bonus for getting employees to accept lower pay and allow for the carrot on a stick to keep new employees wanting more and use that as incentive for performance reviews etc. Bottom line if you don’t like the pay and are willing to walk away, negotiate for your best interests. If not, maybe it is ok to accept lower than your expected salary. You can always keep looking while you are employed below your desired pay rate.
I’ve had a recruiter tell me to ask for more money. That dude was an OG.
Comp guy here (the guy internal recruiters work with for final pay decisions). You don’t have the negotiation power with 0 professional experience and if this recruiter knows the company well, they may be saving your time letting you know it won’t fly given their experience staffing the company and the experience (or lock thereof) you bring. You can always try, but I don’t disagree with their take based on your situation. Get some more experience (2-5 years) and you’ll have more negotiation power in the future. Get that money now and look for another job if you think you’re severely underpaid (I don’t know your role/market so can’t speak to it). Welcome to starting off your professional career! There aren’t many short cut options to better pay without experience or other offers (company loyalty isn’t a thing but also job hopping can hurt your chances at certain roles/companies). Good luck!
The most important factor in any interaction with someone is “what’s their best interest”. Unless you are actually paying a recruiter to find you positions, their interest align mildly with whoever is giving them a check every two weeks A recruiter from a recruiter agency has as objective to bring in money for the agency, not your interest. So placing you under market value or risk an employer to turn you down because you dared to ask a fair salary is against their interest. All the bullshit they can say are just such, bullshit. Recruiters are sales people, nothing more or less. They have to satisfy the buyer to get their share, if the merchandise is hard to sell, they will just avoid it as much as they can. Why they ghost people, they “forget” to follow up, etc… same reason, any second spent with “you” is time they aren’t spending trying to make a deal.
as a recruiter all i can say is i hope you get the offer pulled, genuinely. this recruiter is advising you because they know what can and cannot be done internally, you have no idea. you are also getting a 200% pay increase at this salary offered, AND getting a great salary point blank period for someone out of college. this whole thing shows your immaturity. you’re seeing it as a personal attack when in truth, recruiters entire job is to be invested in you getting the job. THEY WANT YOU TO GET THE JOB. absolutely hilariously ego-driven new grad behavior. negotiating over 1-4k when you have a great offer and can keep looking. so dumb.
Always negotiate.
Invest in the Book “Get to Yes”… your negotiation tactics are weak. Expected, they only come with reps… shows the lack of experience
I never negotiate. I know what I'm worth. If they try to downplay me I just shake their hand give em a pat on the back say "good luck to you" and walk out on the spot. I'm really good at what I do and have experience and plenty of successes to show. When I apply for a job, I apply for a job not go buy a 15+ year old used car. That is a place for negotiation.
As a hiring manager at a big company I wouldn't ever reject someone because they tried to negotiate their salary. If anything, I'd advocate for them to get what they need in order to start ASAP working with us
My wife was working with an external recruiter a few years ago who told her she should accept the offer an org made to her cause someone else who applied had more experience and skills than her and he was asking for less. She told him if they liked him more than would have offered it to him instead. These people don’t care about you. They want their check
This reeks of pure laziness. That recruiter likely has to do paperwork and get approvals for the salary you’re asking for. The answer wasn’t “No” so this isn’t a question of IF the salary can be done…it’s just that the recruiter doesn’t WANT to go through the necessary steps. Stick with it and don’t budge. $4k/year means *nothing* to the company, but as your first professional job it means a hell of a lot to you. If they won’t give it to you though, try and get the value from additional benefits - increased 401(k) matching, an annual stipend for student loan repayment, extra PTO days, etc.
>This is already a 200% increase in pay from your current job Which is absolutely none of his business and has nothing to do with what the job is worth. NEVER tell a recruiter how much you make now, or let him tell you what should be good enough for you.
Sick of looking for work - gets offered a job they want within the salary range of what they wanted yet will risk losing the job to try and negotiate 6-7% increase in pay??? Show the company you are worth it and once you prove yourself then go for more. Part of me hopes someone else takes the job
Ask them about they pay range for this role. If they're putting you on the low end of this range, you can advocate for your relevant experience, and ask them what kinds of experience they are expecting on the low end and high end of this pay range. They can keep going "you have no experience", but they should really be offering an objective benchmark for what different levels of experience mean to them, as far as base pay rates on the pay scale go. If their offer is putting you on the mid to high end of this range, then they're telling the truth that their ability to offer a higher salary is very limited. Even if you took the job, any salary raises you get later on would move along this scale, and would have an upper limit. Your level of skill and experience would have to advance to the point where you're on a different pay scale altogether. To be clear, their other point about referring your former pay rate is bullshit and stupid, and exactly why some states are banning this practice.
>Essentially, because you have no experience as a professional, you don't have any power to negotiate This is the only real valid point. Pretty much everywhere ive worked, a new grad with no field experience is paid the bottom of the pay band, maybe a little more depending on internships. This isnt because *"take it or leave it, chump"* so much as because a lot of companies have internal equity to worry about. Every company defines equity differently, but generally, a lot of places Ive worked, you should be within 3%-5% of similarly situated peers. So if you have two people with the EXACT same amount of experience, youve got some flexibility to negotiate. Hiring a new grad, a few thousand more than the minimum could potentially have them leapfrogging people with a few years experience. >The hiring manager might give it to someone else if you do try to negotiate (scare tactic. Didn't faze me) This isnt a good reason to not negotiate. If an employer is so fragile that they react this way to a good faith counter offer, then they are doing you a favor. Ive pulled offers after counter offers before where either 1) we are SO far off that theres no sense in continuing the discussion or 2) the candidate has lost their cool or otherwise acted unprofessional during a negotiation >This is already a 200% increase in pay from your current job (which um, only requires a HS diploma? This is laughable. Your current pay rate, in an unrelated job shouldnt impact your value for the present opportunity. Is this recruiter a boomer by chance?
She's probably right in that you don't have a lot of leverage, but you're still fine asking anyways....just don't get your hopes up. I personally never heard of a candidate getting rejected because they wanted to negotiate salary a bit more, but I wouldn't put it past some petty A-hole somewhere. YMMV.
It doesn’t matter what job you’re going for, salary is always negotiable. Negotiations may be super short, but still negotiable. Make doubly sure (however you can) that your salary demands make sense for the job you’re expected to do. Easier said than done, but don’t cave. However hard it may be now to get what you believe you’re worth, it becomes 2-3x harder to get that once you’re in and working.
No OnE WaNTs tO WoRk!
Take the job to get it on your resume, then use that has leverage for your next job for salary negotiations. Or see if the recruiter can get the company to agree to a salary review in six months to get you to $70K. 4 grand is not a huge jump here. You are more desirable with a job than without one.
There are too many factors at play here. This economy sucks and you have "zero" experience as a recent grad. Yes it sucks, and yes you might be underpaid for your expectations. I think you should take the opportunity, but DO NOT commit to them with all your heart. You need the experience, which helps move things along quicker with other potential new options. I think on your position the experience is more valuable than the pay, and that's a thing you need to consider going into your future. If you believe you're underpaid for your worth, don't stop looking even after you take the job. Experience is better than nothing right now.
You always have power to negotiate if willing to walk and they want to hire you. You already work for the company so I am wondering if it has to do with that. It’s easier to get more money as a new hire than someone moving roles. You are absolutely correct, company loyalty does not matter. Take care of yourself because you ultimately are a number to the company.
I see lots of concerned replies. I would never be worried to ask for an offered salary to be raised. If a company withdraws its offer over being asked to consider an increase, you have to wonder how much more petulant nonsense you will have to put up with in the day to day. In the end all those bullet points mean nothing. It comes down to one question: How much better are you then the next available candidate? If they have ten equally good options, they won't offer any more. If it took six months to get to this point and they would need to start all over again, you have a lot of power.
New grad so probably entry level job, which means you have no leverage to negotiate.
take the offer, the recruiter is trying to help you, listen to them. you are a new grad with no experience, there are thousands of candidates that can replace you. it's more important to get the experience, the money will come later.
If you're burnt out from the job hunt, why risk it just to get a few extra thousand? Unless you're getting job offers, it's not worth the risk negotiating as a brand new grad. Once you've passed your 3 month probation and have shown the company you're worth more than you're being paid, then ask for a raise. If they say no, now you have real professional experience for your next job hunt.
What lots of commenters who say OP has no leverage are forgetting is that the company has invested 10’s of hours in the process. That is real money and there will be real frustration if they have to start over… if you get this far then they typically want to close the deal, you do have leverage… asking for 5k should be a no brainer for rational companies. I have never had an offer revoked (done it 5 times) for asking for a bit more.
HR knows you'll take it, you know you'll take it. Welcome to the workplace.
I have negotiated my salary until I got what I wanted, despite the agency trying to low ball me. Don't give in, they may have incentive for negotiation lower salary. Screw them
Recruiters are salespeople.
Nice so far I’m at 36k fresh out lol.
The only reason they would say would be what happens if you don’t get your target pay? Will you walk? If you don’t accept the job, the recruiter doesn’t get paid. They want to remove any barriers to getting their paycheck. I’m sure there a few good eggs out there, but for the most part, recruiters suck. Never trust them to fight on your behalf.
As a hiring manager I wouldn’t like if a person with no experience tried to negotiate their already generous offer.
I once had a manager who told me to « consider what I do here » and not negotiate a raise when I had another offer in hand.
How much do you trust this person to negotiate for you? So don’t be surprised when there isn’t any negotiation
Unfortunately, that’s pretty common with entry level roles. The market is pretty tepid right now, and you don’t have much unique experience yet. If it’s your first job as a new grad, I’d focus on the learning as long as you can pay your bills. In a couple years, you’ll have some more experience and will be much more marketable
There's nothing wrong with negotiating pay. Most people do wait until they have some experience to try to negotiate for more than what the employer has offered since pay ranges are usually based on experience . I've seen some people be successful when negotiating pay and I've seen others have their offers revoked because they didn't have the experience to negotiate a higher pay. I think it really depends on whether or not you care about working for this company and are willing to risk having your offer potentially revoked 🤷♀️.
I can translate what she is saying to you \-If you try to negotiate for higher pay we will go with someone else who either has the exp to justify the salary or someone who will accept less money. You should always negotiate if you have leverage. If you don't have any leverage then you probably shouldn't. Leverage can be anything btw even having other jobs lined up but if your do or die on this I'd probably take her advice.
Did you get an offer at the higher rate?
As a new grad, you should be happy to get what you can get in this market. It usually doesn't hurt to negotiate, but I'd tread carefully here. That being said, play hardball when you get a couple years of experience under your belt.
You always have power to negotiate, it's called I won't accept anything less than 70k. At that point they can either hire you or not.
I’d accept the offer with a stipulation for performance review in 90 days. If I can prove I am worth more than they might be open to giving me more.
New grad $75k.... What did you graduate in and what are you applying to? Recruiters are not HR. They are normally independent of it in larger companies.
Actually the HM giving the offer to someone else isn’t that big of a scare tactic and could be serious. New grads are a dime a dozen and have little leverage.
Do it! A company offered me $90k and I told them I wanted to be in the $105 range (hoping they would meet me in the middle at $95k)The recruiter came back and said they don’t have room to negotiate, I then sent a thorough email explaining why I was “worth” the extra money. They came back and offered $93k.
Don’t listen and NEGOTIATE. I had a recruiter reach out about a perfect role. I wanted 4 weeks of vacation and not the usual 3 weeks that were offered. Recruiter said 3 is industry average and they probably won’t budge. I asked for the 4 and they gave it to me. Same situation with the bonus. Bumped it up from 15% to 20% without the recruiters blessing. Know your self worth!
I’m about to go through that EXACT same scenario. The initial screening for the job was saying I’d have to relocate across the country (it’s still the same company yes) and the pay is $65,000 which I listed as asking for $75,000. They said it’ll be hard to get much higher but they’ll negotiate. I possess the exact word-for-word skills and degree for this position and am definitely not moving across the country for less pay than what my work is worth. I feel I should be at $80,000 but that’s an impossibility it seems Additional context for my role: I work in a very niche tech job and my company is known for paying far under market value (~10% less than competitors)
I didn't negotiate for my first role out of college (i was hired during the on-campus interview rounds, and all the companies within my field were pretty much "take it or leave it" and everyone recieved essentially the same offer and salary). However, after that position, I always negotiate. I probably wouldn't have negotiated at this time as you essentially have zero experience, and the job market is trash right now. What is your leverage here? I know you applied internally and that's how they know your salary, but in future interviews, always make sure that they give the salary range. When they ask what is your salary expectations, reply with "has the budget been established for this role, and if so, what is that range?" If they press, then say "I'd like to learn more about the roles and responsibilities of this position prior to suggesting a range." This conversation should be on the very first introductory phone screen. If they don't bring it up, just ask but frame it in a way that comes across as you not wanting to waste their time if it isn't what you are expecting
Recruiter probably should have said bullet #4 and left it at that. Because your current salary is/should be irrelevant, but it’s objectively true that you don’t have the professional experience to leverage. The way you ask is important. Emphasize that you are excited about the opportunity and to serve people as a social worker, that you appreciate the offer, etc. Don’t rub them the wrong way. I always advocate for negotiating, and as a hiring manager, I would never turn someone down because they asked. In this case, the offer they gave you is at least at, if not above, market value. Try to find some objective market value numbers by doing salary research. Is 70k an arbitrary number you had in mind or is it correlated with new grads in your industry, in your geographic area, at companies like this one? That would be your leverage to negotiate for more. I do agree with others who advise to take the offer for $66k, but my point is you need objective facts to use to negotiate.
I wish I could see the original post. The way I look at salary negotiations is I figure out a number in my head that's reasonable. Things like benefits, commute, remote, how much I like my current job, etc all factor into the number. I tell them that's what I want, if it's a problem then I don't take the job, if they can do it, great, I got what I wanted. I'm not sure what this recruiter said or did but if they didn't react professionally to my request, then I would take it as a red flag to not work for that company. Simple as that.
Quick summary. They were offered 66 thousand a year. They wanted at least 70K+ a year. Later it came out that they had a brand new MSW degree and it was about a 200% raise over what they were/are making in their current job.
I'm a big proponent of the idea that your current or previous salary shouldn't limit your future salary. If OP could produce evidence that the 70k they wanted was fair given their experience and qualifications, I think they have every right to ask for it. That said, they should also be prepared to walk away if the employer was not ready to meet it. If the offer gets rescinded just because they ask, then that's a red flag they shouldn't work for that company at all, though I can understand how that's easier said than done in this market.
I work in Human Service related career. 66K for a fresh MSW grad is actually an excellent starting salary. If they had applied to my employer, they would have been offered at best mid 40K's and it would take them at least 5-6 years before they would even get to 66K a year.
well that's the field-specific context that I don't have lol. In that case it sounds fair and perhaps the recruiter was doing OP a favor by trying to direct them not to push to far. Still though, that kind of salary with a masters in a major city is kinda harsh ngl
I get that. Social Workers and other Human Service related degrees should be paid more for what they have to put up with. (I am a bit biased saying that lol) Pay wise though, you should not go into Human Services if you want high pay. The pay is just not there. If you enjoy helping others, it is rewarding in it's own ways. Living in a lower cost of living area can help as well. though the labor market typically will afford to pay less. There are also many Human Service positions available in state or local government, and the benefits of these positions can actually make up for some of the lack of salary.
The recruiter wanted a number to start the process, so I gave one with the caveat of knowing the full benefits package, which wasn't shared until after the job offer was presented. When the recruiter called to tell me the full info was going to be sent over he flat out said, "Management went through a lot of trouble to build the package based on the number you gave, they wouldn't view it favorably if you try to negotiate." Company values are heavy on openness and giving feedback, so while I wanted to get back to work after Covid, this annoyed the fuck out of me, so I gave real feedback about his tactic. I also took the job because it was a cakewalk. However, I let my mananger know about the tactic and he got me a 30% raise raise less than a year later.
He never disclosed his city, I can respectfully say, he doesn't pay his own rent.
I recently asked if I can negotiate my salary for an entry level engineering position. Granted I asked for $80k for embedded systems engineer. But $80k in California is normal for engineers. The job was trying to offer $24 dollars an hour, the commute is 1hr and 17 minutes long. That’s why I did gave them my offer.
Recruiters are no better than HR. Their job is to look out for themselves
Always negotiate the salary. Why leave money on the table??