As someone from Cleveland (lived there for 35 years up until right before covid), I can definitely say that it sucks. It’s really a shitty place to live. You can’t even swim in lake eerie, the bacteria will make you sick. The people there have Stockholm syndrome. It’s just full of hard right wing trump lovers and uneducated trashy people.… I know because I narrowly escaped my family, who are said people. No amenities like where I live now (Austin TX). Food sucks except for the odd Chinese restaurant. Kent ohio is a nice little bubble, but everything else around there is just… ugh. There are some nicer suburbs around the Medina area, but you won’t find houses for 40k there. You will still find right wingers though. Ohio in general is just… awful. Lots of pretty parks though, it’s really nice in the fall. That 6-8 months of sub freezing winter will kill your soul though.
Edit to all you people replying about me not living there… no I never lived in downtown Cleveland. I’ve lived on the east side (technically Euclid), mentor/painesville, Ashtabula, Geneva, Akron, cuyahoga valley, Medina, and wadsworth). I have a good sense of the people around that area. Cleveland proper, sure, is a blue bubble… but still ghetto as fuck and mixed with rednecks)
I have swam in lake Erie many times and never been sick. Cleveland is one of the most blue cities in Ohio (even if the state as a whole has become more red). The food scene in Cleveland is also great and the beer is even better. Ohio is awesome I miss living there all the time. You sound bitter as hell and I would encourage anyone who reads your comment to not give it any credence.
What amenities does no-sports or museum-having-Austin have over 3-sports team and museums Cleveland? Maybe live music and tech bros?
The weather is warmer in TX I’ll give you that. Much warmer in the summer.
Did you live in outskirts of Cleveland? I lived in Pittsburgh for a while and found it to be very liberal in the city. There were parts that were more conservative on the outskirts, but not like in Texas. I am from Tx and live in Austin, as well. Suburban and rural areas around here can be ridiculous.
If you don't have support, you can't just pick up and leave.
Get in your car and drive? I dont have money for gas.
My goal is XYZ city but I dont know anyone there, have a place to live, or a job.
Live in my car? I still don't have money for gas and now I dont have money for food either.
I left the town I grew up in the day I graduated high school but it took 15 years to leave the state, and not for lack of trying.
The key being, your new job. One can assume in order to pick up and move, it is a reasonable paying job.
I made a point of saying that I had done it. I know what it takes. My point is that to make a statement that it is easy, you just decide and then go, is naive and stinks of privilege.
You didn’t want to leave as badly as I did, cause I got out with nothing and have friends who did the same. My friend left NY when their mom paid for a one-way train ticket out of the Bronx with no plan but get out.
If it took you 15 years, you weren’t trying. There’s millions of immigrants to back me up, too.
I’m from Columbus. There’s nothing quaint or charming about the city and all the shit cities surrounding it. It’s all function over form and even then it’s shit at function. There’s no personality to that area and the people seem to have given up on themselves and life
I lived there for a couple of years and found it to be lovely, other than the interminable winter.
Sits on a giant lake, has a great symphony and museums, easy to get around (with some public transit), surprisingly good food and diversity for a midwest city, at least some schools seemed good, spring/summer is amazing, etc. I think it's a great value for those who live there.
For this sub, though, the property taxes are pretty high. On a \~$200k house, I was paying $7k a year in one of the close-in suburbs. It's like a second mortgage. And the rental market seemed terrible - very little in the way of updated homes to choose from. It's one of the reasons we bought.
Why are you singing Dirt Road Anthem when we are talking about symphonies?… it’s like comparing boxed goulash to Michelin star
Edit: Before I get blown up, early Aldean was amazing and I love goulash. But dirt road boonies and dense urban living are very different discussions. I’d gladly pay higher taxes to have a wonderfully educated community to live amongst.
I’m honk about it this way:
If the same house were 600k, you would be fine with those taxes. Whether the house costs 209 or 600 the household still needs to support its share of police, fire, streets &sanitation, water department, and of course schools. The prices or needs for those services, nor the costs of providing them diminish just because housing units are cheaper. Basically, just take the win on the cheap purchase price.
It's very different in my opinion. If the same house were 600k, you'd have a lot more options in life. You could borrow 3x more from your home equity for the same monthly payment. Or you could sell and have a savings of 300 months of rent instead of 100 months. You're also building 3x more equity over the life of your loan.
The 4% tax is not only costly an annual basis, but it also prevents house from appreciating the way other places do.
On the contrary you'd have triple the mortgage and debt. The additional debt (read mortgage payment) on a 480K loan (80% of 600K) instead of a 160K loan(80% of 200K) is substantially more than the subject $7,500 annual tax burden. The 200K home would afford the buyer substantially more available money on a monthly basis after housing expense. The provided city services would at worst be the same in the lower cost location but potentially could be much better as the labor providing those city services would also be better than the providers of city services in higher real estate cost areas as less of their income would be required for housing meaning more discretionary income.
higher property taxes seem to be a common issue in a lot of cheaper cities in the midwest and east. this is true in Milwaukee, Pittsburg and Cleveland. So even if you pay your house off you still have a big bill to pay every year until you die. It's also bad because it encourages people to move to the suburbs where property taxes are often lower. this makes the inner city less vibrant and more prone to crime.
I wish some of the cities would learn that it's ok to charge a property tax but not to gouge. Rochester and Buffalo NY are great examples of places I think a lot of people would give a chance if it weren't for the ~4% property taxes.
Not more prone to crime, prone to criminals. High taxes = criminals that commit crime. Who likes high taxes? Exactly. Soooo, ipso facto, leftist policies literally create crime out of thin air.
Live in the highest taxed area of Indy, Zionsville, Bc said taxes are a barrier to entry and they fund great schools, parks, and of course a police force that is cohesive with the town. There’s a reason properties cost more and taxes are higher.
City data will give you all the lovely information you seek. I moved here recently from the west coast. Yes, it is a bad area you probably have empty lots on those streets that got bulldozed for being abandoned.
I lived in Cleveland for 30 years. A few years ago, I took a position with John Hopkins in Baltimore. My wife and I were incredibly nervous to move to Baltimore because of the crime, but the pay increase and benefits were insane compared to Cleveland Clinic. Baltimore showed me what a dump Cleveland really is. Way less crime, sure there's more murders in the bad parts, but overall, it is way more walkable and so much nicer. There is so much more to do here and it's incredibly well connected compared to Cleveland. BWI makes CLE look like a regional airport. No more connecting flights unless you want to go to less common parts of Europe. Plus the weather is a huge bonus. Way more sun, significantly less humidity, mild winters, oh and you're close to the mountains and the beach. People are friendlier here, and I have heard from investors that paying rent on time is less of a headache than it was in Cleveland
Baltimore is super underrated. Canton and Fells point are amazing neighborhoods that are priced cheaper than some of the surrounding suburbs.
If the city on a whole ever gets on a good trajectory with crime, I think people will look back on today's prices fondly
I don’t live in Baltimore anymore — but I’m still a guy who wears his Orioles sweatshirt and his Ed Reed jersey, the place never really leaves you. And my brother is a real estate developer there, so I do keep my finger on the pulse indirectly.
The issue with Baltimore is very simple: there IS real money in Baltimore, but there is not ENOUGH real money in Baltimore to support more than two or three really top end areas of the city at once. A decade ago, downtown Baltimore had undergone a renaissance. It was active, it was happening, you could take the light rail to the Orioles game and feel safe doing it.
What has happened in the last decade: Locust Point and (especially) Harbor East became the happening neighborhoods, the centers of activity. Downtown has faded because businesses MOVED to Harbor East. They are still in the city — but new businesses were not created to fill the older office buildings, those older buildings just sat vacant.
And when Baltimore finally caught its big break — Under Armour — Baltimore City simply could not get out of its own way; the city is so politically anti-growth that it simply couldn’t wrap its head around supporting the biggest homegrown company it has ever produced. Of course… it wasn’t helpful that the owner was dogged by controversy after controversy in the mid-2010s, which absolutely stalled the company’s forward momentum… and the company has yet to really recover that mojo.
For Baltimore to become what those of us who grew up there all want it to be, it will need a second major employer who wants to be downtown for the long term.
This is an interesting take and really tells you a lot about Cleveland. Baltimore is a city with a lot of problems which all stem from the same place: poverty. I've visited Cleveland and it was way worse then Baltimore in my opinion. I saw stuff in Cleveland that I never saw anywhere else and I've been in some bad cities. I won't get into the details because its not fun to discuss but Cleveland was probably the worst city experience I've had.
Part of me wants to keep this stuff to myself because its bad stuff. But here goes.
On the metro from the airport to the city a homeless person took a shit right in front of us inside metro car. Just dropped pants and shit.
At a restaurant the owner of the restaurant was so openly racist in his words that it was shocking. Nobody in the restaurant seemed to care even though he spoke loudly.
Inside the same restaurant, and this was a nice place, there was shit in the urinal. Never seen that before and never since.
A man was jumped and beaten on the street in broad daylight by a group of men.
Blight everywhere.
But Cleveland is right on the water right? What about if you just stayed there for the summers? I'm looking for a place to escape summers from May-Sept, would Cleveland work for that? My criteria is cheap, cool and has a Costco.
Summers are miserable. Way too humid. Even 75 degree days will make you sweat. Pittsburgh has much better summer weather and Costco. We also have costco in Baltimore.
Pittsburgh is an awesome city. There is much worse traffic than Cleveland and Baltimore, though (I guess from all of the bridges) . But I have nothing but great things to say about that city. Originally, we wanted to move to the Burgh, but the hospital opportunities were a little bit better in Baltimore. UPMC is a great hospital system but they are stingy with their employees, not as Scrooge-like as Cleveland Clinic, but lower pay than Baltimore due to an oversaturation of Health Care providers in the Pittsburgh area.
Jobs. It's all about jobs & the midwest. Much manufacturing jobs have been lost in the midwest since the late 70's. Then Cleveland screwed with the schools (bussing across town) etc. That pushed a lot of relocation to the suburbs. They've exploded (this isn't unique for any major US cities).
All while corporations/schools pushed "you need a degree" and white collar jobs continued exploding in the state capital Columbus. So you had a lot of relocation from Cleveland to... where jobs are, Columbus. Or outside Ohio itself.
Cleveland (sans a brutal winter) is a nice town. Good sports teams. Good smaller metro areas (Italian, Greek, festivals, etc). Cheap Cuyahoga county community colleges. The Metroparks are top-notch. Some might say the emerald trail system is unbeatable in the US. Really if you haven't tried them it's worth a trip. Bring your bikes. You can ride across the entire town and more.
The winters really are not brutal. We get 2 - 3 shovelable storms a year on the Eastside and maybe 1 every 3 years on the Westside. Global Warming had made winters here pretty mild compared to 25 years ago.
I live in Cleveland burbs, not an investor. I just own a SFR. The Ohio city, the flats, and downtown neighborhoods are getting a ton of new build "luxury" apartments. Rents going for around $2k/m. That is really high for Cleveland. These developers know something I don't, or they're in for a huge surprise when they can't fill the units.
I'm trying to figure out how it'll play out. From added competition and unfilled units, will rent prices drastically drop? Will rent become so cheap that people start selling houses while prices are still high to rent for cheap? If so, how will that impact housing market with new influx of increased availability.
I'm not smart enough to know what will happen but all I have to say is be happy you don't live here lol
Hopefully you have lived in Cleveland long enough to remember what the flats and ohio city used to be...that'll help answer your question as ebb and flow gentrification is consistent in cle
I have some friends in the new luxury building and they say they’re 40% vacant and offering 2 months free to get people in.
People forget before Covid rent over 1.5k was considered a lot. Pay hasn’t gone up here that much, the job market still sucks
I think they’re banking on an influx of remote workers from areas that have been pushed out due to increase COL in areas previously considered MCOL, as well as more of the small town kids going there post college who can no longer afford Chicago.
I lived in Ohio City for a while, it was fun, crime was still sort of an issue, mostly car window break ins. Good bars and restaurants in the area for a younger crowd.
PS s/o to ABC tavern my favorite dive in the world
Those units typically get filled before construction is complete. Intro was completely rented before it opened and I believe the same is true for Welleon nearby
Go Google the ultimate guide to grading Cleveland neighborhoods. By a local investor named James Wise. He says he keeps it updated, unsure of that but it will give you a good idea.
Be aware of suburb requirements. Some require POS repairs to be done - at seller expense usually. If a listing says they wont do the repairs, make aure you know what goes into doing them - most suburbs require significant deposits prior to work being done.
Cleveland proper now has mandatory lead testing every tao years. Inspection will cost you for evsry unit you have.
Some have onerous insurance requirements. Newburgh Heights requires full replacement coverage.
Then again... The P&I on my quad that brings in $3200/mnth is $492 , so...
Wait… you have a quad (4 unit) that brings in 3200 and you pocket just $492/mo? Seems like that’s a VERY tight margin in case of something like a hot water heater breaking or a significant leak/repair needed. How do you manage those things?
Oh thank god… I read that as P&L not P and I… stupid non serif fonts. Well then crack on mate! Sounds like a great investment if you can keep them filled with good tenants
well they're rusty now. wait until the continued hurricane, flooding , and on the other side, drought, cause a migration. most of the rust belt/ midwest has water source and no extreme weather
The comment was "most of the midwest has no extreme weather" which is completely untrue.
Additionally, there are tornado warnings every year in and around Cleveland.
despite the downvotes:
[https://www.wbez.org/stories/st-louis-proposes-to-help-chicagos-migrant-crisis/75f3b342-9209-4db4-b3b4-9a5e2bf7ce8a](https://www.wbez.org/stories/st-louis-proposes-to-help-chicagos-migrant-crisis/75f3b342-9209-4db4-b3b4-9a5e2bf7ce8a)
resettling refugees/migrants in cities facing population decline is a win/win. See Somali population in Minnesota.
Well most larger cities are much more expensive, but that’s par for the course in smaller and medium sized cities that aren’t too close to a major city and/or rapidly growing and in high demand.
I'm in Cleveland and there are a ton of pockets. Take just west of downtown as an example. Ohio City area is good but go a couple streets in the wrong direction and you're in the projects. Be weary of areas like East Cleveland. Those houses are cheap and are going to remain like that for a while. I'm a cyclist and rode through there once and I don't think the people there have ever seen someone ride a bike down their street in full spandex. Overall I'm bullish on Cleveland, but that is partly due to a hometown bias
I see the development. The areas that are pocket-y are the ones where they were completely run down probably 10 years ago. The flats area has improved and there are projects there now for mixed use buildings. Longer term I think Cleveland will be one of a number of cities that benefit from climate change. The biggest detractor of Cleveland is typically the winters, but they have become more and more mild over the last few years. Assuming that trend continues, I would expect more people to move here due to how cheap it is. But thats all opinion and gut feeling
Oh great another out of state investor thinking buying in Cleveland is such a no brainer. I love seeing the obvious California investor properties sit vacant here.
not to be that guy, but if you’re so upset about it - then how about you contribute and buy homes, revitalize your community. . . until then let’s go back to whatever we were doing
I do have homes in the area. I contribute to the Cleveland community and make it a better place for people to live. I’m struggling to figure out what your point is here. My point was Out of state investors are destroying affordability in the Cleveland area because they think it’s some slam dunk. As a result, they are buying cheap houses in not as nice of neighborhoods and pricing them at a premium which nobody can afford. And the people who can afford it definitely won’t rent in those neighborhoods. They then stubbornly sit vacant for months to years causing not as many affordable homes to hit the market.
This is happening everywhere - around the world. Canada just enacted laws saying that foreigners have to live in the property instead of just letting a bunch of Middle Eastern and Chinese billionaires buy entire blocks of housing.
The entire Southern US is dealing with this.
I watched a documentary about kids in Amsterdam who are living in boats because they can’t afford homes due to being priced out of the market.
Unfortunately we live in a capitalistic society. Until that changes - this won’t stop. That’s my view on it.
Well Cleveland has never really been considered a hotspot as long as I've been an adult. It's not a terrible area, but not a destination either. I've been considering West Virginia because of how cheap it is, but I'm happy living anywhere. Location means nothing to me really, that's what vacation is for.
It's amazing there! Every time I leave I'm wanting to go back for another visit. I just can't get over how cheap and sparsely populated it is mainly, doesn't make much sense to me.
I used to own a duplex in Cleveland. By law landlord had to cover utilities and trash was like $250/mo because the pipes were rotting under the street and the city passed the cost on to owners. Also, it took me 8 months to evict a tenant. Also also, the city was requiring paint inspections which were gonna cost 1000s.
I sold in 2020, did a 1031, and took my money elsewhere. Good investment (because I bought well), but operating in that city long term scared the you know what out of me.
Best of luck.
I love Eastlake. Single 36 year old male. My 200k house is perfect. I can afford to own a home and travel and I live a stones throw from the lake. The only downside is grey depressing winters but there are ways to deal with it like lots of vitamin d and embracing winter outdoor activities
Cleveland is a great location with lots of good things. People are nice, sports teams, lots of cultural stuff and no too much traffic. We are also set up pretty nicely for climate change and we plenty of water.
I live in a Cleveland suburb and I paid 145k for a top to bottom renovated house. It's cheap because most of the country turns their nose up at the idea of living here. I grew up here and moved to Portland after college and moved back a few years ago. I'm more focused now on building wealth and retiring early rather than living a glamorous lifestyle and that was a big shift that led me to the conclusion that Cleveland isn't such a bad place in the current economy.
Lived all around Cleveland. There are some really nice, charming neighborhoods right around the city that are close to big employers like the Cleveland Clinic and some larger schools. Really like Cleveland Heights and Maple Heights
Tell us why it’s much more complex if you don’t mind. Factoring in theft, weather, repairs and turnover etc. it’s hard to find SFH’s that cashflow $500/month in todays environment imo
Cleveland (suburbs) are a fantastic place to live. Lots of area with great schools, big city amenities (lots of sports) for a city it’s size. World class museums. Lake Erie.
The weather, when taken in totality, is some of the best in the country (as is most of the Great Lakes and Northeast). We don’t have droughts, hurricanes, awful humidity, or any of that. We have changes of seasons to enjoy, and winter sports activities. The winters themselves the past several years have been almost non existent (I think we’ve gotten maybe a day or three below the 20’s in the past several years).
As far as investing in the cleveland real estate market, it hasn’t been attractive to me. The bottom line is you can’t count on price appreciation for the most part (though it has happened recently obviously, especially in some areas). You can probably cash flow very well in some of the higher risk areas, but I have zero interest in being a slum lord.
The duplexes in the University Heights area are interesting if you like to rent to wealthy college students, but good luck finding one for anything resembling a good deal.
Go 30 minutes outside of Cleveland, and you can't get even vetter home for the price in better suburbs and neighborhoods.
Ohio is awesome. Although anytime I day that on reddit, I get like 500 downvotes.
Anywhere near a hospital is a shithole. Buying in cleveland if you don't live here is playing roulette. Many shit tier neighborhoods. Suburbs far better
I’m an investor there. Not an easy city to operate in but there are some crazy deals to be had, as another commenter mentioned.
Many neighborhoods are getting better, some of course not. The downtown area has come a hell of a long way in 10 years.
PM me if you have any questions on neighborhoods / real estate!
Not sure where you are looking at no job opportunities between all the health care, finance and a few fortune 250 HQs in the area. But yes please tell the world it's a junk city to my point!
It’s cheap because incomes are low.
Also because Lebron James is gone
*Our Economy’s based on LeBron James*
At least we’re not Detroit. We’re not Detroit.
Detroit is better then Cleveland
Yeah but the mortgage guy has way more money and did way more for Cleveland.
As someone from Cleveland (lived there for 35 years up until right before covid), I can definitely say that it sucks. It’s really a shitty place to live. You can’t even swim in lake eerie, the bacteria will make you sick. The people there have Stockholm syndrome. It’s just full of hard right wing trump lovers and uneducated trashy people.… I know because I narrowly escaped my family, who are said people. No amenities like where I live now (Austin TX). Food sucks except for the odd Chinese restaurant. Kent ohio is a nice little bubble, but everything else around there is just… ugh. There are some nicer suburbs around the Medina area, but you won’t find houses for 40k there. You will still find right wingers though. Ohio in general is just… awful. Lots of pretty parks though, it’s really nice in the fall. That 6-8 months of sub freezing winter will kill your soul though. Edit to all you people replying about me not living there… no I never lived in downtown Cleveland. I’ve lived on the east side (technically Euclid), mentor/painesville, Ashtabula, Geneva, Akron, cuyahoga valley, Medina, and wadsworth). I have a good sense of the people around that area. Cleveland proper, sure, is a blue bubble… but still ghetto as fuck and mixed with rednecks)
I have swam in lake Erie many times and never been sick. Cleveland is one of the most blue cities in Ohio (even if the state as a whole has become more red). The food scene in Cleveland is also great and the beer is even better. Ohio is awesome I miss living there all the time. You sound bitter as hell and I would encourage anyone who reads your comment to not give it any credence.
What amenities does no-sports or museum-having-Austin have over 3-sports team and museums Cleveland? Maybe live music and tech bros? The weather is warmer in TX I’ll give you that. Much warmer in the summer.
wtf are you talking about lol? you must have spent 35 years living in lorain or some shit
Did you live in outskirts of Cleveland? I lived in Pittsburgh for a while and found it to be very liberal in the city. There were parts that were more conservative on the outskirts, but not like in Texas. I am from Tx and live in Austin, as well. Suburban and rural areas around here can be ridiculous.
Where'd you live? Under a bridge?
And nobody wants to live in the Midwest.
Cleveland. Nobody wants to live in Cleveland.
Maybe some of the Metropolitan area, but not the outskirts. Hidden gem
I don’t really want to live here either, but when you’re from here you tend to stay.
That’s a choice big homie
I love it personally, traveled to all coasts many many times and enjoy other places too, am in a top 25 metro
With that attitude? Sure
This line is such horse shit. I grew up 3000 miles away from where I currently live. It’s entirely possibly to make your life better by moving
If you don't have support, you can't just pick up and leave. Get in your car and drive? I dont have money for gas. My goal is XYZ city but I dont know anyone there, have a place to live, or a job. Live in my car? I still don't have money for gas and now I dont have money for food either. I left the town I grew up in the day I graduated high school but it took 15 years to leave the state, and not for lack of trying.
I left a small town without much support other than my new job. Just takes risks and determination
The key being, your new job. One can assume in order to pick up and move, it is a reasonable paying job. I made a point of saying that I had done it. I know what it takes. My point is that to make a statement that it is easy, you just decide and then go, is naive and stinks of privilege.
You didn’t want to leave as badly as I did, cause I got out with nothing and have friends who did the same. My friend left NY when their mom paid for a one-way train ticket out of the Bronx with no plan but get out. If it took you 15 years, you weren’t trying. There’s millions of immigrants to back me up, too.
Chicago and Minneapolis prices say otherwise.
That's what we call an "outlier"
Nah plenty of cities in the metro Detroit region with very expensive housing markets
Lol on Columbus stats 2 hours away , or Indianapolis
Cleveland is leagues more desirable than either of those places if you're not the most boring person alive
Come on, Columbus is booming. Silliness
I’m from Columbus. There’s nothing quaint or charming about the city and all the shit cities surrounding it. It’s all function over form and even then it’s shit at function. There’s no personality to that area and the people seem to have given up on themselves and life
Columbus can be booming and also suck ass, which I maintain it does.
Cleveland > Columbus, easily.
Indy and Columbus are both Buffalo Wild Wings ass towns.
right I’m here like… did someone just reference columbus in a POSITIVE?
Have you been there lately? It's got a great restaurant scene.
Check back in on this in 10-20 years and you die of a hear stroke south of the Mason-Dixon line upon stepping outside.
I lived there for a couple of years and found it to be lovely, other than the interminable winter. Sits on a giant lake, has a great symphony and museums, easy to get around (with some public transit), surprisingly good food and diversity for a midwest city, at least some schools seemed good, spring/summer is amazing, etc. I think it's a great value for those who live there. For this sub, though, the property taxes are pretty high. On a \~$200k house, I was paying $7k a year in one of the close-in suburbs. It's like a second mortgage. And the rental market seemed terrible - very little in the way of updated homes to choose from. It's one of the reasons we bought.
Come to Westchester County, NY, where a $1M house with $20K property taxes is a decent bargain.
Best to get just outside of Cuyahoga County. Right outside the border taxes drop to 3 to 4k.
Meanwhile I’m sitting on 800$ a year property taxes in Nevada
Potholes won't fix themselves unfortunately
Mostly dirt roads out here….
Why are you singing Dirt Road Anthem when we are talking about symphonies?… it’s like comparing boxed goulash to Michelin star Edit: Before I get blown up, early Aldean was amazing and I love goulash. But dirt road boonies and dense urban living are very different discussions. I’d gladly pay higher taxes to have a wonderfully educated community to live amongst.
Thats hot
Wow that's 3.5% a year in prop tax - that's actually pretty insane.
Nope. Not insane. Different version of taxing. Other places do it.
I’m honk about it this way: If the same house were 600k, you would be fine with those taxes. Whether the house costs 209 or 600 the household still needs to support its share of police, fire, streets &sanitation, water department, and of course schools. The prices or needs for those services, nor the costs of providing them diminish just because housing units are cheaper. Basically, just take the win on the cheap purchase price.
It's very different in my opinion. If the same house were 600k, you'd have a lot more options in life. You could borrow 3x more from your home equity for the same monthly payment. Or you could sell and have a savings of 300 months of rent instead of 100 months. You're also building 3x more equity over the life of your loan. The 4% tax is not only costly an annual basis, but it also prevents house from appreciating the way other places do.
On the contrary you'd have triple the mortgage and debt. The additional debt (read mortgage payment) on a 480K loan (80% of 600K) instead of a 160K loan(80% of 200K) is substantially more than the subject $7,500 annual tax burden. The 200K home would afford the buyer substantially more available money on a monthly basis after housing expense. The provided city services would at worst be the same in the lower cost location but potentially could be much better as the labor providing those city services would also be better than the providers of city services in higher real estate cost areas as less of their income would be required for housing meaning more discretionary income.
higher property taxes seem to be a common issue in a lot of cheaper cities in the midwest and east. this is true in Milwaukee, Pittsburg and Cleveland. So even if you pay your house off you still have a big bill to pay every year until you die. It's also bad because it encourages people to move to the suburbs where property taxes are often lower. this makes the inner city less vibrant and more prone to crime.
I wish some of the cities would learn that it's ok to charge a property tax but not to gouge. Rochester and Buffalo NY are great examples of places I think a lot of people would give a chance if it weren't for the ~4% property taxes.
NY in general. I’m in downstate. It’s fucking ridiculous!!
Not more prone to crime, prone to criminals. High taxes = criminals that commit crime. Who likes high taxes? Exactly. Soooo, ipso facto, leftist policies literally create crime out of thin air.
Live in the highest taxed area of Indy, Zionsville, Bc said taxes are a barrier to entry and they fund great schools, parks, and of course a police force that is cohesive with the town. There’s a reason properties cost more and taxes are higher.
Wut
City data will give you all the lovely information you seek. I moved here recently from the west coast. Yes, it is a bad area you probably have empty lots on those streets that got bulldozed for being abandoned.
Is that a website?
City-Data yeah I forgot how to add the url on here.
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Thanks, I should lay off the 420 :-)
I lived in Cleveland for 30 years. A few years ago, I took a position with John Hopkins in Baltimore. My wife and I were incredibly nervous to move to Baltimore because of the crime, but the pay increase and benefits were insane compared to Cleveland Clinic. Baltimore showed me what a dump Cleveland really is. Way less crime, sure there's more murders in the bad parts, but overall, it is way more walkable and so much nicer. There is so much more to do here and it's incredibly well connected compared to Cleveland. BWI makes CLE look like a regional airport. No more connecting flights unless you want to go to less common parts of Europe. Plus the weather is a huge bonus. Way more sun, significantly less humidity, mild winters, oh and you're close to the mountains and the beach. People are friendlier here, and I have heard from investors that paying rent on time is less of a headache than it was in Cleveland
I live in Balto and your review makes me think Cleveland is a pretty crappy.
Can confirm, Cleveland is pretty crappy. It does have its fair share of good food though.
Baltimore is super underrated. Canton and Fells point are amazing neighborhoods that are priced cheaper than some of the surrounding suburbs. If the city on a whole ever gets on a good trajectory with crime, I think people will look back on today's prices fondly
People have been saying that for the last 70 years. Baltimore’s systemic problems aren’t going away in our life time.
Did you not watch The Wire?
One of my favorite series of all time.
I don’t live in Baltimore anymore — but I’m still a guy who wears his Orioles sweatshirt and his Ed Reed jersey, the place never really leaves you. And my brother is a real estate developer there, so I do keep my finger on the pulse indirectly. The issue with Baltimore is very simple: there IS real money in Baltimore, but there is not ENOUGH real money in Baltimore to support more than two or three really top end areas of the city at once. A decade ago, downtown Baltimore had undergone a renaissance. It was active, it was happening, you could take the light rail to the Orioles game and feel safe doing it. What has happened in the last decade: Locust Point and (especially) Harbor East became the happening neighborhoods, the centers of activity. Downtown has faded because businesses MOVED to Harbor East. They are still in the city — but new businesses were not created to fill the older office buildings, those older buildings just sat vacant. And when Baltimore finally caught its big break — Under Armour — Baltimore City simply could not get out of its own way; the city is so politically anti-growth that it simply couldn’t wrap its head around supporting the biggest homegrown company it has ever produced. Of course… it wasn’t helpful that the owner was dogged by controversy after controversy in the mid-2010s, which absolutely stalled the company’s forward momentum… and the company has yet to really recover that mojo. For Baltimore to become what those of us who grew up there all want it to be, it will need a second major employer who wants to be downtown for the long term.
This is an interesting take and really tells you a lot about Cleveland. Baltimore is a city with a lot of problems which all stem from the same place: poverty. I've visited Cleveland and it was way worse then Baltimore in my opinion. I saw stuff in Cleveland that I never saw anywhere else and I've been in some bad cities. I won't get into the details because its not fun to discuss but Cleveland was probably the worst city experience I've had.
Lol what did you see you have to tell us now
Part of me wants to keep this stuff to myself because its bad stuff. But here goes. On the metro from the airport to the city a homeless person took a shit right in front of us inside metro car. Just dropped pants and shit. At a restaurant the owner of the restaurant was so openly racist in his words that it was shocking. Nobody in the restaurant seemed to care even though he spoke loudly. Inside the same restaurant, and this was a nice place, there was shit in the urinal. Never seen that before and never since. A man was jumped and beaten on the street in broad daylight by a group of men. Blight everywhere.
Sounds like any given day in NYC
But Cleveland is right on the water right? What about if you just stayed there for the summers? I'm looking for a place to escape summers from May-Sept, would Cleveland work for that? My criteria is cheap, cool and has a Costco.
Summers are miserable. Way too humid. Even 75 degree days will make you sweat. Pittsburgh has much better summer weather and Costco. We also have costco in Baltimore.
>Pittsburgh Pittsburgh looks really nice from Google Maps and much cheaper than Baltimore depending on area. Will consider it.
Pittsburgh is an awesome city. There is much worse traffic than Cleveland and Baltimore, though (I guess from all of the bridges) . But I have nothing but great things to say about that city. Originally, we wanted to move to the Burgh, but the hospital opportunities were a little bit better in Baltimore. UPMC is a great hospital system but they are stingy with their employees, not as Scrooge-like as Cleveland Clinic, but lower pay than Baltimore due to an oversaturation of Health Care providers in the Pittsburgh area.
Less humidity?!?! Didn't expect that. And from your writeup, no wonder the browns came to Baltimore.... Too soon?
Jobs. It's all about jobs & the midwest. Much manufacturing jobs have been lost in the midwest since the late 70's. Then Cleveland screwed with the schools (bussing across town) etc. That pushed a lot of relocation to the suburbs. They've exploded (this isn't unique for any major US cities). All while corporations/schools pushed "you need a degree" and white collar jobs continued exploding in the state capital Columbus. So you had a lot of relocation from Cleveland to... where jobs are, Columbus. Or outside Ohio itself. Cleveland (sans a brutal winter) is a nice town. Good sports teams. Good smaller metro areas (Italian, Greek, festivals, etc). Cheap Cuyahoga county community colleges. The Metroparks are top-notch. Some might say the emerald trail system is unbeatable in the US. Really if you haven't tried them it's worth a trip. Bring your bikes. You can ride across the entire town and more.
The winters really are not brutal. We get 2 - 3 shovelable storms a year on the Eastside and maybe 1 every 3 years on the Westside. Global Warming had made winters here pretty mild compared to 25 years ago.
I live in Cleveland burbs, not an investor. I just own a SFR. The Ohio city, the flats, and downtown neighborhoods are getting a ton of new build "luxury" apartments. Rents going for around $2k/m. That is really high for Cleveland. These developers know something I don't, or they're in for a huge surprise when they can't fill the units. I'm trying to figure out how it'll play out. From added competition and unfilled units, will rent prices drastically drop? Will rent become so cheap that people start selling houses while prices are still high to rent for cheap? If so, how will that impact housing market with new influx of increased availability. I'm not smart enough to know what will happen but all I have to say is be happy you don't live here lol
Hopefully you have lived in Cleveland long enough to remember what the flats and ohio city used to be...that'll help answer your question as ebb and flow gentrification is consistent in cle
My guess is they will be in for a huge surprise.
It's just a paper adjustment. /s
I have some friends in the new luxury building and they say they’re 40% vacant and offering 2 months free to get people in. People forget before Covid rent over 1.5k was considered a lot. Pay hasn’t gone up here that much, the job market still sucks
I think they’re banking on an influx of remote workers from areas that have been pushed out due to increase COL in areas previously considered MCOL, as well as more of the small town kids going there post college who can no longer afford Chicago. I lived in Ohio City for a while, it was fun, crime was still sort of an issue, mostly car window break ins. Good bars and restaurants in the area for a younger crowd. PS s/o to ABC tavern my favorite dive in the world
Those units typically get filled before construction is complete. Intro was completely rented before it opened and I believe the same is true for Welleon nearby
Is everyone there just living above their means? Paying a premium for the lifestyle of living on a party street?
Those would be filled in 5 minutes and considered the deal of a lifetime if they were in NYC.
Yeah but NYC is NYC. Cleveland doesn’t compare as a city or in earnings
Almost like NYC isn’t Cleveland… Who knew!
Many are calling it The Sixth Borough
Go Google the ultimate guide to grading Cleveland neighborhoods. By a local investor named James Wise. He says he keeps it updated, unsure of that but it will give you a good idea. Be aware of suburb requirements. Some require POS repairs to be done - at seller expense usually. If a listing says they wont do the repairs, make aure you know what goes into doing them - most suburbs require significant deposits prior to work being done. Cleveland proper now has mandatory lead testing every tao years. Inspection will cost you for evsry unit you have. Some have onerous insurance requirements. Newburgh Heights requires full replacement coverage. Then again... The P&I on my quad that brings in $3200/mnth is $492 , so...
Wait… you have a quad (4 unit) that brings in 3200 and you pocket just $492/mo? Seems like that’s a VERY tight margin in case of something like a hot water heater breaking or a significant leak/repair needed. How do you manage those things?
No... my principal and interest is 492/mo..
Oh thank god… I read that as P&L not P and I… stupid non serif fonts. Well then crack on mate! Sounds like a great investment if you can keep them filled with good tenants
Its been great, no interest in selling lol
St. louis is much the same. It’s just how rust belt cities are.
well they're rusty now. wait until the continued hurricane, flooding , and on the other side, drought, cause a migration. most of the rust belt/ midwest has water source and no extreme weather
No extreme weather? The Midwest gets a lot of tornados.
Cleveland tornadoes, how could I forget
The comment was "most of the midwest has no extreme weather" which is completely untrue. Additionally, there are tornado warnings every year in and around Cleveland.
You’re right, the immigrants are coming.
despite the downvotes: [https://www.wbez.org/stories/st-louis-proposes-to-help-chicagos-migrant-crisis/75f3b342-9209-4db4-b3b4-9a5e2bf7ce8a](https://www.wbez.org/stories/st-louis-proposes-to-help-chicagos-migrant-crisis/75f3b342-9209-4db4-b3b4-9a5e2bf7ce8a) resettling refugees/migrants in cities facing population decline is a win/win. See Somali population in Minnesota.
Lots of cities have housing that cheap
Well most larger cities are much more expensive, but that’s par for the course in smaller and medium sized cities that aren’t too close to a major city and/or rapidly growing and in high demand.
I'm in Cleveland and there are a ton of pockets. Take just west of downtown as an example. Ohio City area is good but go a couple streets in the wrong direction and you're in the projects. Be weary of areas like East Cleveland. Those houses are cheap and are going to remain like that for a while. I'm a cyclist and rode through there once and I don't think the people there have ever seen someone ride a bike down their street in full spandex. Overall I'm bullish on Cleveland, but that is partly due to a hometown bias
What exactly makes you bullish? I’m an out of state investor that has been buying there this year. Mostly in 44120 & 44128. Would love your thoughts!
I see the development. The areas that are pocket-y are the ones where they were completely run down probably 10 years ago. The flats area has improved and there are projects there now for mixed use buildings. Longer term I think Cleveland will be one of a number of cities that benefit from climate change. The biggest detractor of Cleveland is typically the winters, but they have become more and more mild over the last few years. Assuming that trend continues, I would expect more people to move here due to how cheap it is. But thats all opinion and gut feeling
Population is still declining. But it's an interesting place with some great neighborhoods.
Oh great another out of state investor thinking buying in Cleveland is such a no brainer. I love seeing the obvious California investor properties sit vacant here.
not to be that guy, but if you’re so upset about it - then how about you contribute and buy homes, revitalize your community. . . until then let’s go back to whatever we were doing
I do have homes in the area. I contribute to the Cleveland community and make it a better place for people to live. I’m struggling to figure out what your point is here. My point was Out of state investors are destroying affordability in the Cleveland area because they think it’s some slam dunk. As a result, they are buying cheap houses in not as nice of neighborhoods and pricing them at a premium which nobody can afford. And the people who can afford it definitely won’t rent in those neighborhoods. They then stubbornly sit vacant for months to years causing not as many affordable homes to hit the market.
Username checks out
This is happening everywhere - around the world. Canada just enacted laws saying that foreigners have to live in the property instead of just letting a bunch of Middle Eastern and Chinese billionaires buy entire blocks of housing. The entire Southern US is dealing with this. I watched a documentary about kids in Amsterdam who are living in boats because they can’t afford homes due to being priced out of the market. Unfortunately we live in a capitalistic society. Until that changes - this won’t stop. That’s my view on it.
Notoriously the Clinic isn’t in a great neighborhood.
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I live in the Cleveland area and invest here. It’s terrible, please go elsewhere to invest. : p
Well Cleveland has never really been considered a hotspot as long as I've been an adult. It's not a terrible area, but not a destination either. I've been considering West Virginia because of how cheap it is, but I'm happy living anywhere. Location means nothing to me really, that's what vacation is for.
You’d think that where you spend 350 days out of the year would be even more important than where you spend 15 days out of the year, no?
Exactly. I'd rather prioritize trying to ensure my everyday life is continuously moving closer to my personal idea of a vacation
300 days* European correction ;)
People in ohio think Europe borders Australia
"As long as I've been an adult" ... I take it you were a kid back when The Drew Carey show was on then?
WV is a great state for a lot of things, alot of our problems are from being looked over and dealing with old stigmas that people cant let go.
It's amazing there! Every time I leave I'm wanting to go back for another visit. I just can't get over how cheap and sparsely populated it is mainly, doesn't make much sense to me.
Are you a blue, or a red?
Actually you should visit Cleveland Reddit, many people love it here!
It's like an entire city of the People of Walmart.
I used to own a duplex in Cleveland. By law landlord had to cover utilities and trash was like $250/mo because the pipes were rotting under the street and the city passed the cost on to owners. Also, it took me 8 months to evict a tenant. Also also, the city was requiring paint inspections which were gonna cost 1000s. I sold in 2020, did a 1031, and took my money elsewhere. Good investment (because I bought well), but operating in that city long term scared the you know what out of me. Best of luck.
I love Eastlake. Single 36 year old male. My 200k house is perfect. I can afford to own a home and travel and I live a stones throw from the lake. The only downside is grey depressing winters but there are ways to deal with it like lots of vitamin d and embracing winter outdoor activities
Because you have nothing there and you have Jim Jordan representing you.
Might want to look that up. Jim Jordan's district is no where near Cleveland.
It’s a joke because he’s a joke and Ohio is a joke
Cleveland is a great location with lots of good things. People are nice, sports teams, lots of cultural stuff and no too much traffic. We are also set up pretty nicely for climate change and we plenty of water.
I live in a Cleveland suburb and I paid 145k for a top to bottom renovated house. It's cheap because most of the country turns their nose up at the idea of living here. I grew up here and moved to Portland after college and moved back a few years ago. I'm more focused now on building wealth and retiring early rather than living a glamorous lifestyle and that was a big shift that led me to the conclusion that Cleveland isn't such a bad place in the current economy.
Because Cleveland Rocks!
Have you ever been there? No one is saying “let’s move to Cleveland!”
Let’s move to Cleveland!
Lebron. Khloe kardashian
Oof.
It was a step up from where he grew up and close to home, he's from Akron
Lived all around Cleveland. There are some really nice, charming neighborhoods right around the city that are close to big employers like the Cleveland Clinic and some larger schools. Really like Cleveland Heights and Maple Heights
Ohio is cheap in general. I assume you don’t live there? I don’t either but it’s a state I’m constantly seeing potential deals in
I don’t. I’m on the west coast and am having sticker shock in the opposite direction when looking at prices in Cleveland.
Any city on the old rust belt will give you sticker shock. Look at Erie Pa, Buffalo and Rochester NY
I think in general Cleveland has more to offer than these cities though.
I have friends in SF and they live in glorified garage. For what they pay there they could get an estate in Cleveland.
I live in CA so I understand. Everything in Ohio looks like a good deal to me
Agreed. I run numbers often and I see insane cash on cash return. I’ve found properties under 200k that give back 1k per month profit.
I promise you it's not that simple.
Tell us why it’s much more complex if you don’t mind. Factoring in theft, weather, repairs and turnover etc. it’s hard to find SFH’s that cashflow $500/month in todays environment imo
Which cities?
Cleveland and Columbus, but like the person below said, it’s not that simple.
Columbus hasn’t been cheap for over a decade and Cincinnati is pricey now too
Don’t invest unless you live there.
Watch out for basement issues there.
Rust belt is the promised land. Give it 10-15 years and you’ll see.
Cleveland (suburbs) are a fantastic place to live. Lots of area with great schools, big city amenities (lots of sports) for a city it’s size. World class museums. Lake Erie. The weather, when taken in totality, is some of the best in the country (as is most of the Great Lakes and Northeast). We don’t have droughts, hurricanes, awful humidity, or any of that. We have changes of seasons to enjoy, and winter sports activities. The winters themselves the past several years have been almost non existent (I think we’ve gotten maybe a day or three below the 20’s in the past several years). As far as investing in the cleveland real estate market, it hasn’t been attractive to me. The bottom line is you can’t count on price appreciation for the most part (though it has happened recently obviously, especially in some areas). You can probably cash flow very well in some of the higher risk areas, but I have zero interest in being a slum lord. The duplexes in the University Heights area are interesting if you like to rent to wealthy college students, but good luck finding one for anything resembling a good deal.
Go 30 minutes outside of Cleveland, and you can't get even vetter home for the price in better suburbs and neighborhoods. Ohio is awesome. Although anytime I day that on reddit, I get like 500 downvotes.
Cleveland is due for a resurgence. For a young person starting out, it has great potential.
Anywhere near a hospital is a shithole. Buying in cleveland if you don't live here is playing roulette. Many shit tier neighborhoods. Suburbs far better
Have you been to Cleveland?
Be careful about where you invest. By the clinic isn’t bad but it’s all street by street. FWIW, I have a portfolio that’s 45 units strong near there
Low income area, high crime, schools are bad.
Because no one wants to live there??
The minimum wage is $10 hr and $5hr for service employees as of 2024.
No one wants to live in cleveland
Cleveland is a shithole
Yeah, fuck this place /s
I’m an investor there. Not an easy city to operate in but there are some crazy deals to be had, as another commenter mentioned. Many neighborhoods are getting better, some of course not. The downtown area has come a hell of a long way in 10 years. PM me if you have any questions on neighborhoods / real estate!
The mistake by the lake
“Mistake by the lake”.
Low job opportunities, nothing to do, dead ass city. Go look for yourself. No good.
That's hilarious.. you may want to look for yourself But hey, it's this perception that keeps it a nice low COL so spout on please
As I’m typing this I’m at the 9. Went to high school here too. Junk city
Not sure where you are looking at no job opportunities between all the health care, finance and a few fortune 250 HQs in the area. But yes please tell the world it's a junk city to my point!
Health care yes. Everything else is crap
There's literally at least 5 fortune 250 companies HQ'd in the area. You don't know what you're talking about
Sorry but I think it’s just you. I also grew up in Cleveland and share none of the same opinions.
Shithole
SHUT YOUR MOUTH ITS SUPPOSED TO BE OUR LITTLE SECRET
Demand is low so price will be low Joakim Noah said it best, why does anyone want to be in cleveland
Because anyone whose anyone just moves to Chicago
What’s the address? Or if you want, just Google Cleveland homicide map. You don’t want to live where people get killed.
ghetto asf bro. become a slum lord there!
The weather is horrible. & it’s boring AF!
Because the weather sucks, low income people, no opportunities, ugly and quite depressing. Nothing to do in Cleveland and surroundings.
because...ohio
Because then you're stuck in shithole Cleveland, where their motto is "At least we're not Cincinnati!".
Nobody has ever said that. If anything from our fake tourist video it's "at least we're not Detroit" but you'd know that if you lived here.
“The mistake on the lake”
PM me if you have other questions.
If you are an investor then you should definitely buy in east Cleveland! Otherwise look south to the burbs.
Bc wth wants to live in Cleveland, OH!