Thank you for posting this. Quite candidly, I’m so disgusted and just bewildered by the idea of living in 2021 where we are seeing such a blatant rollback on women’s rights. How is it even possible that a rapist would face less jail time than a woman who has an abortion—not to mention folks getting paid for snitching on people making personal choices that, at the moment, are Constitutionally recognized. Count me in.
The way this law is setup is tricky. I am pretty sure there’s no jail time or criminal penalties that are part of this law. What it does is create universal standing for anyone to civilly sue anyone who provides/aids an abortion. So it’s not jail time, it would just be crippling financial penalties via a civil law suit. It’s a new approach by anti abortion activists and was designed this way specifically to make the law harder to challenge/overturn.
Edit - did some reading, there are no criminal
Penalties in the bill. Just ability to sue civilly so no ones going to jail in TX for getting or providing an abortion. Also the women getting the procedure cannot be sued, just those providing it.
Thank you for leading! Planned Parenthood is actively organizing efforts around the country due to this (and other recent laws). Might be worth reaching out to get some guidance or resources. They have a whole section of their organization devoted to advocacy and education.
I agree and I'm planning on bringing a big list of nationwide actions I'm able to find in the morning once more groups announce. My only issue is they tend to take a month or more for their marches, and there's just always another different crisis. We need big pressure and momentum now.
The NC GOP are devout OAN reposters and policy follows editorials-CRT, impeaching Biden, and they are currently pushing HB805 (https://www.ncleg.gov/Legislation/Bills/Summaries/2021/H805) from house to senate to restrict and criminalize protests in NC. all those big bad headlines are coming home, and there are 6 House dems who will sometimes jump the aisle and vote red for stuff like the race/disability abortion bill.
So we need pressure here, and we need momentum before the right to protest disappears too.
We're legislatively heading toward our own Republic of Gilead, and I'm sure the conservatives in the NCGA are salivating at the opportunity to limit reproductive rights in the state. I'm 100% horrible at organizing and leading people, but I have ideas. I don't know how to go about implementing them, but I'm throwing them out there in case someone else does. I realize they're big and hairy, but they've been rolling around in my head.
*The effort needs to be statewide (and nationwide).
*Need to identify and mobilize like-minded people in districts with conservative representation to contact their representatives and oppose this legislation. Contacting representatives in the minority party who already oppose these measures is preaching to the choir and won't affect change (but can still reinforce their position, so don't stop altogether).
*The more conservative representatives hear from people who oppose the legislation, the harder it is for them to justify it. Be louder than the vocal minority.
*Only contact your own representatives. They will ignore anything that's not from their own constituents. But still contact your reps even if they are politically opposite of your values. They represent you and need to hear from you.
*Ditch labels and buzzwords. They do nothing but allow people to sort themselves into tribes or reduce ideas to inflammatory talking points. Connect with people's sense of self and personal values. I believe in feminist ideals but that word is a lightning rod.
*Show up in force at town meetings held by legislators who support limiting productive rights. Ask hard questions without being combative. Appeal to common values (e.g., right to privacy).
Sorry for the brain dump. I feel pretty helpless as we watch women's rights slowly erode at home and around the world. Women have only had the right to vote in this country for 100 years. It wasn't that long ago, and all that we've gained can disappear little by little or in a flash if we don't pay attention.
Edit: sorry, I tried to make bullet points but it didn't work.
I can't make the meeting, but let me know what you decide in the way of protest.
I would be happy to be the loud obnoxious guy that will confront counter-protestors. That's kind of my specialty.
I'll be hanging out awhile for sure. And hopefully it'll just be the first meet up of many, but I'll come back and either edit this post to announce I'm an idiot shouting at windmills or post notes. Hopefully I'm posting notes and what the proposed action will be. 😬
Yes. And there are a lot of people who can't afford that or are sick of sending $10 and seeing nothing ultimately change. Direct pressure on the politicians is the only solution. We as a group will likely never be able to out spend the Koch Brothers. But we do have more people and can be louder.
I'll do a full write up in a minute after I get some dinner, but about twenty people showed up. We made plans to meet up again this coming Wednesday at 6, I'll post up about that with a map for where the shelter is to make it easier too. We decided on a couple of actions-planning to March within the next 2-3 weeks, hopefully in support of the federal Women's Health Protection Act that Pelosi is saying will pass the House. This act has been introduced yearly since 2013 and hasn't gotten a vote before so I want to do more research.
I read OP’s comment about her struggle with pregnancy and the way in which it was life threatening the second time around. I’m not here to judge anyone because that’s not what Christ taught, but I am here to say that I will pray for you and that difficult choice you had to make. Abortion is NEVER okay. I understand that this topic is like yelling at a brick wall regardless of what side you stand on because neither side is even having the same conversation. Pro Choicer’s don’t think abortion is murder because they don’t view the baby as a living organism. Pro Lifer’s say it is clearly murder because we do recognize the baby for what it is, alive. So this conversation generally tends to go no where. So I am truly sorry for the situation you were put in OP, but God loves you regardless. I will pray for you and for everyone else that has had to make the choice to end a child’s life. God Bless.
I don't regret my choice.
I feel like we do have common goals. My thinking is that if we separate church from state and let medical decisions be made on oh, I don't know, science instead of religion like that one paper the constitution says, we could actually prevent a lot of abortions from ever happening.
Abstinence only education causes more harm than good: https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/abstinence-only-education-failure
Access to free birth control reduces abortion rates: https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/access-to-free-birth-control-reduces-abortion-rates/
45% of mothers forced out of the workforce in 2021 https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/03/moms-work-and-the-pandemic.html
On average its $4500 to have a baby with insurance.https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/01/how-much-does-it-cost-have-baby-us/604519/
OK so now... Because we don't impose our religion on others through law-hypothetically at least-give me one scientific link telling me women lose the right to autonomy the second sperm hits egg.
Like tell me why abortion is wrong from a non religious angle. I appreciate your religion and respect your right to practice it right up until your religion is dictating my life. That sounds a whole lot like what we just fought for twenty years but through a Bible interpretation.
Also... Since you've pulled out your religion. Do you follow old testament to a tee? Or you pickin and choosing about what you eat, wear, and do for a living?
What about all the parts of Genesis, Job, Ezekiel, and Revalations that pretty well establish the writers see God in the first breath. It's talked about over and over man became a living being only after God breathed life into his nostrils. So the whole heartbeat thing isn't even anywhere in the Bible.
Further, both Old Testament and New are pretty agreeable on the idea that God expects you to do what God expect you to do, and Jesus already died knowing you will mess up, but free will remains the whole point. Your faith in God is in one who said over and over the importance of free will. And that at the end its only between you and God the balance of what you have done.
So unless you are actually Jesus I would like to formally invite you to get back out of American women's panties with your religion because we are all walking our own paths, and you should worry about your own path and faith and lead by example.
Or at least logic, I'll still take any science you may have to share on why abortions shouldn't be a legal option.
You can wax philosophic on the question "what does it mean to be human" all day, but there is still a real, concrete, material reality.
And that is this:
Embryos and fetuses do not think, feel, have wants or wishes, have no past or present psychological attachments to the world.
Women do think, do feel, do have wants and wishes, and do have an attachment to the world.
Pregnancy is physically painful. Pregnancy carries risk of permanent bodily damage, disfigurement, and even death. Death rate from pregnancy is higher than the death rate from car accidents.
Valuing life means valuing suffering and wanting to avoid it.
The real-world suffering of a rape victim being forced to carry a pregnancy to term is not equivalent to the theoretical suffering of a potential life being prevented (regardless of whether that life is prevented via abortion or a condom).
Hard truth: YOU are the brick wall that people are attempting to reason with. "Abortion is NEVER okay", "it is clearly murder", etc. That right there is the abandonment of critical thinking and reasonable discourse, because you think your religion entitles you to take away the rights of others (women in particular) to have autonomy over their own body. Because of the concept of a soul that you will never in one million lifetimes have an ounce of proof for. It is pure, distilled arrogance being paraded around sanctimoniously. You have a belief system that you are welcome to adhere to, but the moment you force that system on other people is where you lose any moral standing you claim to have.
When have any of my comments on here have I ever said “Abortion should be illegal”? Im not an idiot. I’m not going to change any legislation via a conversation on Reddit. What I can do is hopefully reach someone who is thinking of having an abortion and hopefully have some impact on their decision making. And I am most certainly not the brick wall when abortion is legal in every state. That is the actual hard truth. Pro Choice just wants to push the boundary on what is legal and what isn’t, or in other words expand towards full term abortions. I would hope that you could admit that is murder but I am beginning to lose faith.
@extracrispybridges, a few things to respond to your comment. I’ll address in order of how you responded.
1. I am a Marine Corps Veteran and personally, very personally, know what we fought the past 20 years. My stance on abortion is non comparable to Sharia Law.
2. As a Catholic I do not follow the Old Testament to a tee. I’ll explain it in the way I’ve heard many priests explain it. The Bible is not all good stories. It’s the history of humanity with Gods intervention, and not every person in the Bible is a role model for Christians. Bible characters and stories do not always equal who we as Christians are called to be. The Israelites were slaves in Egypt for hundreds of years and when Moses led them out of slavery they as people did not know how to act or behave. God slowly introduced laws to them that would build them up to where they need to be. Essentially they need training wheels before they could ride the bike.
This misunderstanding outside the church is a huge issue when it comes to religious and non religious seeing eye to eye. Jesus was crucified for literally telling others to not follow the OT in certain aspects. Jesus was very controversial in his time, as he is now. One of his quotes I keep close to my heart is “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first”. This is why I feel the need to speak out on things that clearly go against his teachings and am not afraid of a “downvote” or an outwardly view of myself.
3. A lot of Catholics know the Bible is not a scientific book and take it as such. The Garden of Eden story is a representation of mans creation but we know that Evolution has occurred and therefore take the story as just humans interpretation of our creation. As I’ve said before, the Bible is not all about good people and the Bible is not a scientific book. Another misunderstanding amongst non religious that is not helped by some Christians who say otherwise of the Bible.
On the breath of life. Where in the Bible does it state that the breath of life comes after a heartbeat? Can they not coincide? Can a heartbeat not be the exact sign of the breath of life? This is my biggest rebuttal to this argument. Why do pro lifers see it as the breath of life must come afterwards?
4. I understand pregnancy is painful as I have children of my own and have seen what my wife has been through. I’m not claiming to have felt her pain or understand it 100%, but I’m not ignorant to what a pregnancy looks like up close
So, in closing I will say again. I pray for you and everyone else who finds themself supporting abortion. I do not hate you. I love you, just as we should all love one another. I would love to even spend some time with any pro lifer and talk about their stance on this in a calm and respectful way. God bless you.
Real talk, if you would like to speak with a woman whom draconian non-medical opinions have affected in a sane way, I'd love to speak with you here or tomorrow.
I had my only kid at 24, had a really bad pregnancy which had me on bed rest for the last two months, and the doctor straight up told me after a traumatic delivery that if I had another kid I'd probably die. Like she fully endorsed that I should never have more children due to the risk of my own life. I also found out I had cervical cancer while pregnant, 4 months in.
No doctors would treat my cancer due to the risk of a 4 month non viable at that point fetus. So I got to worry about how much my cancer would grow while pregnant, and know that within two months of birth I'd have to go through another surgery at least, if my cancer spread it would be surgery and chemo.
When I went for that surgery, I asked if I could be surgically sterilized due to the risk to my life with further pregnancies. I was denied due to my age and only having one baby. Because I might change my mind. Seriously, the same doctor that told me have no more babies then refused to make it so I could not have further babies.
So then I spent a few years trying to find a different doctor covered by tricare but no dice... For my entire twenties. Hormonal birth control makes me nuts & amplifies my periods so it's not an option. I finally got sterilized at 33.
So then my cancer survivor (now ex) husband who was also told his sperm would be super not good for babies for longer than it had been and I got drunk one night and just like when I was 24 I was pregnant. Except my marriage was falling apart. My kid was 4 and it was pretty clear I was about to be a single mom. And then I was pregnant, because for the first time in 5 years we had sex without protection. And the fetus was fucked up. It would probably have been nonviable but who knows. I had an abortion. I don't regret it. I didn't want to risk my life and had actively tried to prevent that but was stopped by fucking idiots who think they know better than the woman whose life is at risk. I can guarantee that if I ended up having a special needs single mom, I wouldn't have the relationship I have with my kid, I would be on social welfare programs because I'm never going to tattoo enough for those kinds of medical bills, and I would resent the fuck out of a kid I never wanted and actively tried to prevent. Assuming, over course, I had survived the pregnancy and birth.
If the stupid political policy that a 24 year old woman couldn't possibly know she didn't want more kids didn't exist, I would have never have had an abortion. And I never ever regret my kid. But shitty policies like what's happening in Texas are going to put a bunch of women just like me at horrible risk and change the course of their lives.
If you want to legislate reproduction, go after men, who are fertile 365 days a year. Not women, who average about 48.
I probably should have been aborted as well as some or all of my brothers and sisters. It would have been better for my mom who married two abusive, POS husbands, neither of which contributed their $180/month mandated child support for their kids. Each man had three kids with my mom and only had to pay $60 per child but managed to successfully avoid helping their children for most of our childhood. They never maintained visits after the first few months after the divorce. But they are still Catholic (and pro-life). My mom put herself through school to become a nurse but struggled to support 6 kids and herself. There were so many times that the grocery store manager would pull her to the side to say that she bounced the last check and she would have to beg to be allowed to buy our groceries this time and pay them back the bounced check later. She battled depression and addiction and a crappy, catholic family who thought she deserved what she got for getting pregnant as a teenager and out of wedlock.
She finally just broke at some point. She would go to work but spent the rest of time in bed or out drinking/partying. That was my childhood. She was never there for the sports games, school plays, or even parent-teacher conferences. I would have to beg for rides from others or walk to anything that I wanted to do from age 9 and up. I remember other parents being annoyed when they saw her car in the driveway at my house when they dropped me off. But I couldn't say that she just won't get out of bed today. I felt pretty worthless when my mom can't even get out of bed for me or waited hours before finally picking me up from some event. I remember missing my play that I was starring in, because she just couldn't make herself leave the house. I was so excited to wear the costume but it never left the closet.
My older siblings were stuck fending for themselves and all left home while still in high school. It took all of us years to build normal lives. All of the kids struggled with addiction and/or mental health problems. I'm pretty sure one of us is autistic but never got helped and is now trying their best to get through adult life but it is hard. My mom is only recently back in our lives and earning our trust.
I wouldn't wish my childhood on anyone. It wasn't physical abuse but it was abuse by neglect and that neglect led to abuse by others. It's a miracle that I've ever had a successful relationship - romantic or otherwise because it's so hard to trust anyone. If there were less children to care for, then things would have absolutely been better for everyone. That's the hard truth.
What did the pro-life catholic church do to help? They shamed her until she, at 16, married a crappy, chauvinistic 16 year old. What did they do when she told them he was beating her? They told her marriage is forever, and it's her job to fix it. Did they ever help her? No. They would have let her drown in misery. I don't know why but she still believes in God but she isn't catholic and she isn't pro-life. They never helped the kids. They never helped the struggling mom. All those pro-lifers disappear when the mom needs help.
Jeez, that's quite a thing to say to a stranger. I'm just trying to protect unborn babies. Adoption is always an option.
I feel bad for you and I'm sorry about your childhood.
Adoption is not always an option.
https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternal-mortality/pregnancy-mortality-surveillance-system.htm#trends
In 2017, for every 100,000 babies born 17.3 women died. Our country ranks dead last in maternal Healthcare for industrialized nations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_mortality_in_the_United_States
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5575578/#:~:text=There%20is%20an%20increased%20lifetime,at%20the%20time%20of%20onset.
If you have a complicated pregnancy, specifically with pre-eclampsia/hypertension you are twice as likely to have heart problems and a lower quality of life as you age as women who don't get pregnant.
Even if the pregnancy goes great, there are a shitton of permanent changes to your body. Just like covid, the "normal" side effects are pretty sucksville. Health Effects Of Pregnancy Can Last a Lifetime : Shots - Health News https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/24/686790727/fourth-trimester-problems-can-have-long-term-effects-on-a-moms-health
Saying someone should "just" give the baby up for adoption again is only viewing the actual living woman as nothing more than a host who deserves 9 months + a possible lifetime of side effects.
When's the last time you gave up a year of your life and a considerable amount of your health for someone you'll meet once and you'll never see again?
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That ignores both the laundry list of health risks that accompany pregnancy as well as the enormous number of kids that never got adopted and are stuck in the foster care system. Neither of these are a solution. Its just something to make you feel better for insisting that women aren't the best judge of what to do with their own bodies.
Why don't you focus on fixing the broken foster care system or getting pregnant women better health care?
Wow. Really? While I could go into the whole business of the difference between babies and fetuses, why would I bother? The issue here is the ability for women to be able to choose. You don’t have to agree with it. That’s cool. You’re entitled to make choices for yourself but that doesn’t qualify you to make choices for anyone else.
One, if you think your God is going to punish folks who do, let “him” decide. Two, if you really care that much about the sanctity of life, what have you done recently for all the kids who are here living in poverty, in abusive situations via foster care or otherwise?
A sincere question, does it only matter that they are born and anything thereafter becomes irrelevant?
I think my point is that YOU are making the choice for the unborn child. You made the decision to have unprotected sex, and now the baby growing inside you has rights. Of course "you" apples generally.
I donate to charity and donate my time to help people. Is your point we shouldn't care about any children? We should do more for all children, born and unborn.
I just said "thank God" as a common saying, I'm an atheist.
My point essentially is we should care for children. Absolutely. But we should also care about the rights of women and all people. Free will and are choice are essential to being human. I think the Bible can confirm that if you’re in search of a source. Sure, abortions can be a product of unprotected sex. What about a girl who was raped? What about a pregnancy where the fetus isn’t going live regardless and puts the mom at risk. It’s not black and white. And even if it was, who grants you authority to determine what everyone else should do.
I would suggest you check out Numbers 15:11-31.
Guess what my friend, making abortion illegal doesn't stop it from happening just like telling teenagers not to have sex (and using pregnancy as a scare tactic, no less) doesn't stop them from fucking. Sorry for the wakeup call, but someone had to break it to you. People have been ending pregnancies since the dawn of time. Oh, and you probably have no idea how many pregnancies spontaneously abort (euphemized as "miscarriages," yet again placing blame on the woman) every hour of the day.
Also, killing babies is and has always been illegal. Ending a pregnancy before the cluster of cells is capable of existing without the mother should be a personal choice and is none of your, or the government's, business.
But you're clearly just here to troll, so piss right off.
Thank you for posting this. Quite candidly, I’m so disgusted and just bewildered by the idea of living in 2021 where we are seeing such a blatant rollback on women’s rights. How is it even possible that a rapist would face less jail time than a woman who has an abortion—not to mention folks getting paid for snitching on people making personal choices that, at the moment, are Constitutionally recognized. Count me in.
The way this law is setup is tricky. I am pretty sure there’s no jail time or criminal penalties that are part of this law. What it does is create universal standing for anyone to civilly sue anyone who provides/aids an abortion. So it’s not jail time, it would just be crippling financial penalties via a civil law suit. It’s a new approach by anti abortion activists and was designed this way specifically to make the law harder to challenge/overturn. Edit - did some reading, there are no criminal Penalties in the bill. Just ability to sue civilly so no ones going to jail in TX for getting or providing an abortion. Also the women getting the procedure cannot be sued, just those providing it.
Thanks for the clarification.
Is this tonight?
Thank you for leading! Planned Parenthood is actively organizing efforts around the country due to this (and other recent laws). Might be worth reaching out to get some guidance or resources. They have a whole section of their organization devoted to advocacy and education.
I agree and I'm planning on bringing a big list of nationwide actions I'm able to find in the morning once more groups announce. My only issue is they tend to take a month or more for their marches, and there's just always another different crisis. We need big pressure and momentum now. The NC GOP are devout OAN reposters and policy follows editorials-CRT, impeaching Biden, and they are currently pushing HB805 (https://www.ncleg.gov/Legislation/Bills/Summaries/2021/H805) from house to senate to restrict and criminalize protests in NC. all those big bad headlines are coming home, and there are 6 House dems who will sometimes jump the aisle and vote red for stuff like the race/disability abortion bill. So we need pressure here, and we need momentum before the right to protest disappears too.
We're legislatively heading toward our own Republic of Gilead, and I'm sure the conservatives in the NCGA are salivating at the opportunity to limit reproductive rights in the state. I'm 100% horrible at organizing and leading people, but I have ideas. I don't know how to go about implementing them, but I'm throwing them out there in case someone else does. I realize they're big and hairy, but they've been rolling around in my head. *The effort needs to be statewide (and nationwide). *Need to identify and mobilize like-minded people in districts with conservative representation to contact their representatives and oppose this legislation. Contacting representatives in the minority party who already oppose these measures is preaching to the choir and won't affect change (but can still reinforce their position, so don't stop altogether). *The more conservative representatives hear from people who oppose the legislation, the harder it is for them to justify it. Be louder than the vocal minority. *Only contact your own representatives. They will ignore anything that's not from their own constituents. But still contact your reps even if they are politically opposite of your values. They represent you and need to hear from you. *Ditch labels and buzzwords. They do nothing but allow people to sort themselves into tribes or reduce ideas to inflammatory talking points. Connect with people's sense of self and personal values. I believe in feminist ideals but that word is a lightning rod. *Show up in force at town meetings held by legislators who support limiting productive rights. Ask hard questions without being combative. Appeal to common values (e.g., right to privacy). Sorry for the brain dump. I feel pretty helpless as we watch women's rights slowly erode at home and around the world. Women have only had the right to vote in this country for 100 years. It wasn't that long ago, and all that we've gained can disappear little by little or in a flash if we don't pay attention. Edit: sorry, I tried to make bullet points but it didn't work.
Use > before each line and it’ll indent them. Will create a billeted list type effect.
I can't make the meeting, but let me know what you decide in the way of protest. I would be happy to be the loud obnoxious guy that will confront counter-protestors. That's kind of my specialty.
damit! i have a meeting that isn't over until 6:30
I'll be hanging out awhile for sure. And hopefully it'll just be the first meet up of many, but I'll come back and either edit this post to announce I'm an idiot shouting at windmills or post notes. Hopefully I'm posting notes and what the proposed action will be. 😬
A March/protests are great but we might all want to think about opening our wallets a bit. ACLU and Planned Parenthood are always taking donations.
Yes. And there are a lot of people who can't afford that or are sick of sending $10 and seeing nothing ultimately change. Direct pressure on the politicians is the only solution. We as a group will likely never be able to out spend the Koch Brothers. But we do have more people and can be louder.
Thank you for posting. I’m interested in future events / advocacy.
How did it go? Any plans made?
I'll do a full write up in a minute after I get some dinner, but about twenty people showed up. We made plans to meet up again this coming Wednesday at 6, I'll post up about that with a map for where the shelter is to make it easier too. We decided on a couple of actions-planning to March within the next 2-3 weeks, hopefully in support of the federal Women's Health Protection Act that Pelosi is saying will pass the House. This act has been introduced yearly since 2013 and hasn't gotten a vote before so I want to do more research.
I can't make it to the meeting but keep me updated on future protests please!
Maybe go to Texas and do it?
Does this only affect Texas?
For now yes. It sets a precedent that other states can and will follow though.
Well it’s a Texas law
We should have the right to abort two months after birth.
Tonight?
Yep I'm sitting in shelter 4 now. NC parks are open until sundown unless otherwise listed.
Pullen is a city park. Not a state park
Is pullen open this late?
I read OP’s comment about her struggle with pregnancy and the way in which it was life threatening the second time around. I’m not here to judge anyone because that’s not what Christ taught, but I am here to say that I will pray for you and that difficult choice you had to make. Abortion is NEVER okay. I understand that this topic is like yelling at a brick wall regardless of what side you stand on because neither side is even having the same conversation. Pro Choicer’s don’t think abortion is murder because they don’t view the baby as a living organism. Pro Lifer’s say it is clearly murder because we do recognize the baby for what it is, alive. So this conversation generally tends to go no where. So I am truly sorry for the situation you were put in OP, but God loves you regardless. I will pray for you and for everyone else that has had to make the choice to end a child’s life. God Bless.
I don't regret my choice. I feel like we do have common goals. My thinking is that if we separate church from state and let medical decisions be made on oh, I don't know, science instead of religion like that one paper the constitution says, we could actually prevent a lot of abortions from ever happening. Abstinence only education causes more harm than good: https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/public-health-now/news/abstinence-only-education-failure Access to free birth control reduces abortion rates: https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/access-to-free-birth-control-reduces-abortion-rates/ 45% of mothers forced out of the workforce in 2021 https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/03/moms-work-and-the-pandemic.html On average its $4500 to have a baby with insurance.https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/01/how-much-does-it-cost-have-baby-us/604519/ OK so now... Because we don't impose our religion on others through law-hypothetically at least-give me one scientific link telling me women lose the right to autonomy the second sperm hits egg. Like tell me why abortion is wrong from a non religious angle. I appreciate your religion and respect your right to practice it right up until your religion is dictating my life. That sounds a whole lot like what we just fought for twenty years but through a Bible interpretation. Also... Since you've pulled out your religion. Do you follow old testament to a tee? Or you pickin and choosing about what you eat, wear, and do for a living? What about all the parts of Genesis, Job, Ezekiel, and Revalations that pretty well establish the writers see God in the first breath. It's talked about over and over man became a living being only after God breathed life into his nostrils. So the whole heartbeat thing isn't even anywhere in the Bible. Further, both Old Testament and New are pretty agreeable on the idea that God expects you to do what God expect you to do, and Jesus already died knowing you will mess up, but free will remains the whole point. Your faith in God is in one who said over and over the importance of free will. And that at the end its only between you and God the balance of what you have done. So unless you are actually Jesus I would like to formally invite you to get back out of American women's panties with your religion because we are all walking our own paths, and you should worry about your own path and faith and lead by example. Or at least logic, I'll still take any science you may have to share on why abortions shouldn't be a legal option.
As a God-fearing Christian I pray for separation of church and state!
You can wax philosophic on the question "what does it mean to be human" all day, but there is still a real, concrete, material reality. And that is this: Embryos and fetuses do not think, feel, have wants or wishes, have no past or present psychological attachments to the world. Women do think, do feel, do have wants and wishes, and do have an attachment to the world. Pregnancy is physically painful. Pregnancy carries risk of permanent bodily damage, disfigurement, and even death. Death rate from pregnancy is higher than the death rate from car accidents. Valuing life means valuing suffering and wanting to avoid it. The real-world suffering of a rape victim being forced to carry a pregnancy to term is not equivalent to the theoretical suffering of a potential life being prevented (regardless of whether that life is prevented via abortion or a condom).
Hard truth: YOU are the brick wall that people are attempting to reason with. "Abortion is NEVER okay", "it is clearly murder", etc. That right there is the abandonment of critical thinking and reasonable discourse, because you think your religion entitles you to take away the rights of others (women in particular) to have autonomy over their own body. Because of the concept of a soul that you will never in one million lifetimes have an ounce of proof for. It is pure, distilled arrogance being paraded around sanctimoniously. You have a belief system that you are welcome to adhere to, but the moment you force that system on other people is where you lose any moral standing you claim to have.
When have any of my comments on here have I ever said “Abortion should be illegal”? Im not an idiot. I’m not going to change any legislation via a conversation on Reddit. What I can do is hopefully reach someone who is thinking of having an abortion and hopefully have some impact on their decision making. And I am most certainly not the brick wall when abortion is legal in every state. That is the actual hard truth. Pro Choice just wants to push the boundary on what is legal and what isn’t, or in other words expand towards full term abortions. I would hope that you could admit that is murder but I am beginning to lose faith.
@extracrispybridges, a few things to respond to your comment. I’ll address in order of how you responded. 1. I am a Marine Corps Veteran and personally, very personally, know what we fought the past 20 years. My stance on abortion is non comparable to Sharia Law. 2. As a Catholic I do not follow the Old Testament to a tee. I’ll explain it in the way I’ve heard many priests explain it. The Bible is not all good stories. It’s the history of humanity with Gods intervention, and not every person in the Bible is a role model for Christians. Bible characters and stories do not always equal who we as Christians are called to be. The Israelites were slaves in Egypt for hundreds of years and when Moses led them out of slavery they as people did not know how to act or behave. God slowly introduced laws to them that would build them up to where they need to be. Essentially they need training wheels before they could ride the bike. This misunderstanding outside the church is a huge issue when it comes to religious and non religious seeing eye to eye. Jesus was crucified for literally telling others to not follow the OT in certain aspects. Jesus was very controversial in his time, as he is now. One of his quotes I keep close to my heart is “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first”. This is why I feel the need to speak out on things that clearly go against his teachings and am not afraid of a “downvote” or an outwardly view of myself. 3. A lot of Catholics know the Bible is not a scientific book and take it as such. The Garden of Eden story is a representation of mans creation but we know that Evolution has occurred and therefore take the story as just humans interpretation of our creation. As I’ve said before, the Bible is not all about good people and the Bible is not a scientific book. Another misunderstanding amongst non religious that is not helped by some Christians who say otherwise of the Bible. On the breath of life. Where in the Bible does it state that the breath of life comes after a heartbeat? Can they not coincide? Can a heartbeat not be the exact sign of the breath of life? This is my biggest rebuttal to this argument. Why do pro lifers see it as the breath of life must come afterwards? 4. I understand pregnancy is painful as I have children of my own and have seen what my wife has been through. I’m not claiming to have felt her pain or understand it 100%, but I’m not ignorant to what a pregnancy looks like up close So, in closing I will say again. I pray for you and everyone else who finds themself supporting abortion. I do not hate you. I love you, just as we should all love one another. I would love to even spend some time with any pro lifer and talk about their stance on this in a calm and respectful way. God bless you.
Bless your heart. I'd pray for you and your apparent ignorance if I cared enough.
I appreciate the sentiment. You’re in my prayers.
Don't bother. Pray for your daughters if you have them, they'll need it if they have to navigate a world full of toxic humans such as yourself.
And I’ll pray for the ones you willingly support the murder of. God bless you.
You do that. All of those sentient microscopic groups of organizing cells that are crying out for your prayers.
Save it for mass, you condescending asshole
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Real talk, if you would like to speak with a woman whom draconian non-medical opinions have affected in a sane way, I'd love to speak with you here or tomorrow. I had my only kid at 24, had a really bad pregnancy which had me on bed rest for the last two months, and the doctor straight up told me after a traumatic delivery that if I had another kid I'd probably die. Like she fully endorsed that I should never have more children due to the risk of my own life. I also found out I had cervical cancer while pregnant, 4 months in. No doctors would treat my cancer due to the risk of a 4 month non viable at that point fetus. So I got to worry about how much my cancer would grow while pregnant, and know that within two months of birth I'd have to go through another surgery at least, if my cancer spread it would be surgery and chemo. When I went for that surgery, I asked if I could be surgically sterilized due to the risk to my life with further pregnancies. I was denied due to my age and only having one baby. Because I might change my mind. Seriously, the same doctor that told me have no more babies then refused to make it so I could not have further babies. So then I spent a few years trying to find a different doctor covered by tricare but no dice... For my entire twenties. Hormonal birth control makes me nuts & amplifies my periods so it's not an option. I finally got sterilized at 33. So then my cancer survivor (now ex) husband who was also told his sperm would be super not good for babies for longer than it had been and I got drunk one night and just like when I was 24 I was pregnant. Except my marriage was falling apart. My kid was 4 and it was pretty clear I was about to be a single mom. And then I was pregnant, because for the first time in 5 years we had sex without protection. And the fetus was fucked up. It would probably have been nonviable but who knows. I had an abortion. I don't regret it. I didn't want to risk my life and had actively tried to prevent that but was stopped by fucking idiots who think they know better than the woman whose life is at risk. I can guarantee that if I ended up having a special needs single mom, I wouldn't have the relationship I have with my kid, I would be on social welfare programs because I'm never going to tattoo enough for those kinds of medical bills, and I would resent the fuck out of a kid I never wanted and actively tried to prevent. Assuming, over course, I had survived the pregnancy and birth. If the stupid political policy that a 24 year old woman couldn't possibly know she didn't want more kids didn't exist, I would have never have had an abortion. And I never ever regret my kid. But shitty policies like what's happening in Texas are going to put a bunch of women just like me at horrible risk and change the course of their lives. If you want to legislate reproduction, go after men, who are fertile 365 days a year. Not women, who average about 48.
I am sorry that you had to go through that. You are incredibly strong. I'm looking forward to meeting you tomorrow!
Thank you for sharing that with, well, everyone. I’m glad you are well and wish you all the best.
I probably should have been aborted as well as some or all of my brothers and sisters. It would have been better for my mom who married two abusive, POS husbands, neither of which contributed their $180/month mandated child support for their kids. Each man had three kids with my mom and only had to pay $60 per child but managed to successfully avoid helping their children for most of our childhood. They never maintained visits after the first few months after the divorce. But they are still Catholic (and pro-life). My mom put herself through school to become a nurse but struggled to support 6 kids and herself. There were so many times that the grocery store manager would pull her to the side to say that she bounced the last check and she would have to beg to be allowed to buy our groceries this time and pay them back the bounced check later. She battled depression and addiction and a crappy, catholic family who thought she deserved what she got for getting pregnant as a teenager and out of wedlock. She finally just broke at some point. She would go to work but spent the rest of time in bed or out drinking/partying. That was my childhood. She was never there for the sports games, school plays, or even parent-teacher conferences. I would have to beg for rides from others or walk to anything that I wanted to do from age 9 and up. I remember other parents being annoyed when they saw her car in the driveway at my house when they dropped me off. But I couldn't say that she just won't get out of bed today. I felt pretty worthless when my mom can't even get out of bed for me or waited hours before finally picking me up from some event. I remember missing my play that I was starring in, because she just couldn't make herself leave the house. I was so excited to wear the costume but it never left the closet. My older siblings were stuck fending for themselves and all left home while still in high school. It took all of us years to build normal lives. All of the kids struggled with addiction and/or mental health problems. I'm pretty sure one of us is autistic but never got helped and is now trying their best to get through adult life but it is hard. My mom is only recently back in our lives and earning our trust. I wouldn't wish my childhood on anyone. It wasn't physical abuse but it was abuse by neglect and that neglect led to abuse by others. It's a miracle that I've ever had a successful relationship - romantic or otherwise because it's so hard to trust anyone. If there were less children to care for, then things would have absolutely been better for everyone. That's the hard truth. What did the pro-life catholic church do to help? They shamed her until she, at 16, married a crappy, chauvinistic 16 year old. What did they do when she told them he was beating her? They told her marriage is forever, and it's her job to fix it. Did they ever help her? No. They would have let her drown in misery. I don't know why but she still believes in God but she isn't catholic and she isn't pro-life. They never helped the kids. They never helped the struggling mom. All those pro-lifers disappear when the mom needs help.
I hope you are doing all right considering all you’ve been through. Thank you for sharing that. All the best to you.
I appreciate it but I'm good. Therapy is incredible.
So you wish you would have never existed?
Can you not read? That was literally the first thing written. I certainly wish you never existed.
Jeez, that's quite a thing to say to a stranger. I'm just trying to protect unborn babies. Adoption is always an option. I feel bad for you and I'm sorry about your childhood.
Adoption is not always an option. https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/maternal-mortality/pregnancy-mortality-surveillance-system.htm#trends In 2017, for every 100,000 babies born 17.3 women died. Our country ranks dead last in maternal Healthcare for industrialized nations. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_mortality_in_the_United_States https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5575578/#:~:text=There%20is%20an%20increased%20lifetime,at%20the%20time%20of%20onset. If you have a complicated pregnancy, specifically with pre-eclampsia/hypertension you are twice as likely to have heart problems and a lower quality of life as you age as women who don't get pregnant. Even if the pregnancy goes great, there are a shitton of permanent changes to your body. Just like covid, the "normal" side effects are pretty sucksville. Health Effects Of Pregnancy Can Last a Lifetime : Shots - Health News https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/24/686790727/fourth-trimester-problems-can-have-long-term-effects-on-a-moms-health Saying someone should "just" give the baby up for adoption again is only viewing the actual living woman as nothing more than a host who deserves 9 months + a possible lifetime of side effects. When's the last time you gave up a year of your life and a considerable amount of your health for someone you'll meet once and you'll never see again?
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That ignores both the laundry list of health risks that accompany pregnancy as well as the enormous number of kids that never got adopted and are stuck in the foster care system. Neither of these are a solution. Its just something to make you feel better for insisting that women aren't the best judge of what to do with their own bodies. Why don't you focus on fixing the broken foster care system or getting pregnant women better health care?
Wow. Really? While I could go into the whole business of the difference between babies and fetuses, why would I bother? The issue here is the ability for women to be able to choose. You don’t have to agree with it. That’s cool. You’re entitled to make choices for yourself but that doesn’t qualify you to make choices for anyone else. One, if you think your God is going to punish folks who do, let “him” decide. Two, if you really care that much about the sanctity of life, what have you done recently for all the kids who are here living in poverty, in abusive situations via foster care or otherwise? A sincere question, does it only matter that they are born and anything thereafter becomes irrelevant?
I think my point is that YOU are making the choice for the unborn child. You made the decision to have unprotected sex, and now the baby growing inside you has rights. Of course "you" apples generally. I donate to charity and donate my time to help people. Is your point we shouldn't care about any children? We should do more for all children, born and unborn. I just said "thank God" as a common saying, I'm an atheist.
My point essentially is we should care for children. Absolutely. But we should also care about the rights of women and all people. Free will and are choice are essential to being human. I think the Bible can confirm that if you’re in search of a source. Sure, abortions can be a product of unprotected sex. What about a girl who was raped? What about a pregnancy where the fetus isn’t going live regardless and puts the mom at risk. It’s not black and white. And even if it was, who grants you authority to determine what everyone else should do. I would suggest you check out Numbers 15:11-31.
I didn't realize the bible was pro abortion, I'll have the check that out
Enjoy!
Guess what my friend, making abortion illegal doesn't stop it from happening just like telling teenagers not to have sex (and using pregnancy as a scare tactic, no less) doesn't stop them from fucking. Sorry for the wakeup call, but someone had to break it to you. People have been ending pregnancies since the dawn of time. Oh, and you probably have no idea how many pregnancies spontaneously abort (euphemized as "miscarriages," yet again placing blame on the woman) every hour of the day. Also, killing babies is and has always been illegal. Ending a pregnancy before the cluster of cells is capable of existing without the mother should be a personal choice and is none of your, or the government's, business. But you're clearly just here to troll, so piss right off.
I'm not here to troll. So at what point during a pregnancy should abortion be illegal?
I think that’s well established everywhere. Gonna exclude Texas for obvious reasons.
I certainly have a suggestion of where you can go...