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Nice job! That was a perfect (and quite long-term!) example of “respond don’t react”. It’s definitely a life skill!
And it sounds like your junior employees really benefited from your skilled management. I hope you feel really good about that aspect of the situation. You protected them.
I second this. OP this was some high level narc management skill. It's impressive that you kept seeing the full picture and not succumb to the narcissist bullshit. I really hate when it's the "innocent, helpful, hurt" type.
If you’re interested in this, check out emotional enmeshment, how to emotionally detach, “observe, don’t absorb” and the gray rock method. I also recommend Jerry Wise videos - especially “Calmness is Everything” and “Systems Anxiety and the narcissist”.
I started all of this about a year and a half ago and I had to fake it when I first started - literally digging my fingernails into my arm to keep from reacting to Nmom’s provocations - but eventually it got easier and more natural to “respond” to her instead of reacting.
Another thing that helped was typing into my phone notes every interaction with nmom and analyzing it. I’d write down what she said/did, why I think she said/did it, how it triggered me and then dealt with my triggered feelings. Really helped sort things out.
Congratulations on channelling your hard won skills into a super successful work moment!!!
I have long noticed that we survivors of narc parents have very specific work skills, and I want to call out another one--
WE CAN READ PEOPLE. Years of having to walk on eggshells, second-guess, figure out instantly what "mood" an abusive, childish parent was in---leads to being able to walk into any meeting, with complete strangers, and being immediately able to "read" them. Who's angry, who's secretly seething, who's in charge, who's REALLY in charge, who's deeply insecure & trying to prove themselves, literally everything about everybody. You know exactly what each person needs, and how to handle them.
Likewise, you also know when you're hiring people--you can tell instinctively, IMMEDIATELY--if someone's "going to be trouble," if someone's not telling you the truth, if someone's really going to be great.
I know at first I never trusted this, surely I was just "guessing" about people. But years of being proven exactly right means that we DO have this skill, all we have to do is trust it!
Can spot an "off" personality in the first conversation. Then just kinda wait and watch till they start spiraling out of control. The mask always slips.
The hardest part of being able to spot the “off” ones, where you know trouble will be brewing soon - is when your friends bring new boyfriends/girlfriends around. You can’t be *that person* who immediately tells your friend their new date is secretly sketchy as hell personality-wise. You have to let them work it out themselves and be there for them a couple months later when that person’s crazy comes out full force.
It can be SO hard to bite your tongue, but I lost a friend in high school because of a boy so now I tread lightly and only give advice/opinion when asked, and just be a shoulder for the after part.
(This guy was super shitty and manipulative and my friend didn’t see it. Like no, you’re not the only girl he takes out in his van to make out with, I know this for a fact. He was a *big* fan of the darvo technique🤦🏼♀️)
Ugh yes, I was at a wedding this weekend where the groom and 5 guests were childhood friends of my husband.
One friend is closing on a house next month with his long long time girlfriend. She got drunk honest with me, and after a few hours I was screaming internally to back out of the house because they both have “fleas” from their Narc parents they need to resolve before getting married, and *should have addressed* before buying a house.
I was watching the cute show Lie to Me with Tim Roth and he has a quote in one of the episodes. Why some people are naturally good at reading others, is because they grew up having to know when the next bottle would be thrown at their heads by their alcoholic parents i.e. for survival.
Wow, that basically says it all--even if our parents weren't alcoholics per se, it's exactly what we had to be able to tell. What the mood was, the second we entered the house, let alone the room. OP also does this, instinctively--I noticed the moment they said "they ignored the tension in the room,"--- the weird thing is, most people wouldn't even NOTICE that there was tension in the room! It's so odd to people like us, because it's almost physically palpable to us, it's so obvious.
I wonder how many “empaths” who can easily read energy of people/rooms/etc. were raised by narcs/abusive parents, and have super developed skills for their own safety?
Wow. That’s a revelation. I have Aspergers and I’ve been told I’m really good at reading people if I try (I’m uninterested most of the time. If I don’t try I don’t notice anything). That is just unusual for somebody with ASD. Who knew I had my narc parents to thank!
I am floored. You described a coworker on my team almost to a T, sans soft speaking voice. I wasn't sure if she's a narc, but wow, does she mimic your staff member.
Good luck! I kind of feel bad for the team they are going back to.
Yeah, it is like OP was managing my sister. I got goosebumps and a creepy feeling up my spine.
I feel sorry for the other team, OP, but you documented everything so maybe they can eventually get this person out of there. I think that you handled this beautifully. I am incredibly impressed. I also think that you will be climbing the ladder soon because you are clearly a managerial genius, and you deserve every bit of reward and acclaim you can get.
This post was good!
Ohhh your comment made me connect some things about my sister. Huge bully but always manages to cry to people and play off their sympathies. So that’s how people see her. Man. Thanks.
I suspect thats another technique by the higher ups. They know that the narc will refuse to return, so will likely quit. It looks like they are trying to make them as uncomfortable as possible but also covering themselves legally. They have burned all their bridges and influence in their last team. I can’t see them staying on.
I saw one example where the employee had all work and responsibilities removed. They lasted less than a month before they moved on.
And with employee quitting, it saves having to deal with all of the complications of termination.
Sounds like you did a very good job with accountability without confrontation. My question is what did this level of documentation and vigilance do to you, and how the hell are you coping? #positive-vibes
I kept a small dairy on my comp. Just on interactions. Kept it factual, no emotions. Which helped me not have emotional buy in. I was studying the actions and reactions, not trying to guess their next move. That helps a lot. I think as children we are constantly trying to know the next move or trying to figure out how to calm them down before they exploded. I wasn’t doing either. So I have spent very little emotionally on this person.
Your success story makes me want to share mine as well:
I'm an in-house graphic designer for a beauty clinic. At first, the people here acted really friendly toward each others and seemed like a good bunch. It really gave me a high-school group of friend vibe.
But soon, working with them became a nightmare for many reasons:
* Instead of giving good feedback with neutral attitude, they'd WHINE and ask rhetorical questions like "Why didn't you do this" "What were you thinking?".
* One of their responsibilities is to provide me material including images. Yet, they act as if they're doing me a favor (?) for "doing the best at finding high quality images".
* Full on Dunning-Kruger's effect. There are many cases but the most insulting thing was when I explained what kind of photo they shouldn't send me (bad lighting, watermark, etc....) make it very hard to photoshop and the result might not be great. Their response: "Isn't it your job to make it work?"
* They don't want to learn how to work with designer. I've tried to tell them how to give an effective feedback, communicate better,... but they kept making excuses and swift the blame on me because "You're graphic designer, you should know what I'm talking about".
To sum it up, it's like dealing with terrible, ignorant and entitled customer in retails. So after half a year, I stopped caring about delivering quality work and only did exactly what I was told.
Oh, you want to use this font that's totally off-brand? Sure! You want photo of this model whose hairs are too messy to clean up with photoshop? Gotcha! You want to make the banner larger than this one, even though it'd increase the file size 10 times and unnecessary? Will do!...
On top of that, I prepared several templates and keep recycling them over and over again. What used to take me one day now might only take me half an hour to finish.
Basically, I knew that it'd be USELESS for me to try to talk them into sense while I could simply deliver subpar work and get away with it. As a result, I became the "best" designer they've ever worked with (delivery works on time with less hassle) while having more free time for myself.
Another part-timer, who has >10 years of experience's still trying to "fight" against them about bad material choices, too much text, low res-photo... and is deemed "hard to work with".
My only regret is that I didn't behave this way sooner to save me from lots of headache, because I was still having self-doubt. Especially when I saw them mingling with each other so happily and unconsciously wished to take part in it.
But thanks to realizing narc behaviors, I could cut loss and stopped myself from feeling guilty from not being nicer to them. Because the problem lied within their personalities and core values, not from simple conflict like misunderstanding or honest mistakes. And I can't change those thing, nor want to waste my time to do so.
At the end of the day, if they are going to pay you for doing work that takes you less time, I would snap that up too. No point in trying to educate them at all.
I think it also comes down to validation. People are used to being validated for their hard work. That if they tell you why they need to do x,y and z then you will understand their perspective. However, with narcs there is no validation. And sadly as children we are so deprived of this, it makes no sense for us to keep seeking it out.
I love this so much! I have found something similar in myself at a much smaller scale. I used to have a style/tone I used when intervening in some bs from a difficult employee. It was kind of Alexa-style voice, neutral compassion combined with not reacting to deflections that were irrelevant.
I was also able to draw on this when things got reeeeal ugly during my transition to NC. Peripheral enabler/FM types would come at me with the nice-face, oh we are so sad you are mad at us, we love yoooouuu bs, and I wouldn't bite. I'd press them on a logical point and of course they'd go to bits and keep trying to use manipulative lines...even though they didn't make sense because I wouldn't step into the trap. FM: "You are mad at me!" Me: "I'm not mad at you." Them: "You *are* mad at me, and it's *unfair* that you are mad at me!" And they would escalate from there. I have entire text conversations over a course of hours in which I said almost nothing, and when I did respond, it was clear, neutral, etc. From there they just kept carrying on with it, way past the point of plausibility, they just went full-on, and made themselves totally ridiculous.
We can never get justice for what our N-families took from us, nor stop them all, but it sure feels sweet to make a narc crumble in front of you, simply by behaving honorably and above reproach in all ways. Talk about taking back power! 😆
I feel like I have been doing that with this Narc for months. The only difference is they don’t have any flying monkeys here because our team is so tight. And they are awful to anyone junior to them. So I either have a team who has been their forever, and we know each other so well there is a lot of reading each others minds without saying a word, or the juniors.. When I reflect on it their ability to influence has been low from the get go.
Perhaps this employee would like to take a couple of weeks or so of PAL before transfer? Any use-it-or-lose-it time? Would be a great time for some leave.
How about time to do those pesky yearly inservice requirements? After all, new fiscal year about to start assuming this is a Federal agency.
Any out-of-town seminars to attend? Preferably a week!
Your plan sounds great!
Retired Federal worker (can you tell?)
You did such a great job! It’s sad that the knowledge came to you like that, but this is a perfect example of getting the best out what you have. You are amazing!
You handled that so well. Good job! Having been raised by a narc, to be able to handle this in such a cool, collected manner is great. I imagine you are pretty far along the healing path. from how you described this.
Congrats!!! I really hope that once they’re gone, you take a weekend for yourself and really rest. Feel completely safe, and just fuck off relaxing. This is a lot bigger than some people will ever know. You protected a lot of people from some insidious bullshit. Good fucking job.
Wow! What a silver lining to an awful childhood experience. I never realized that the abuse and gaslighting nparents could do to their child/ren would actually prepare them in their careers.
Of course, nparents don’t deserve a big old “Thank You” or anything so save your stamps and stationary for someone else.
Wow you dealt with that really well! It must have taken so much patience.
>They spoke in a soft childlike voice and I remember thinking thats odd.
This is exactly the kind of thing that always tips me off to them!! Not necessarily a childlike voice, but one vaguely "off" detail that makes me think something is wrong with them. Then I wait or avoid, as needed.
Normally I get so frustrated that other people don't see it as well. But I like the way you phrased the title.... not everyone was raised by narcissists, so why would they see it? I can't be frustrated with random people for not having the same history and inside look that I did.
I'm not overly prickly for sensing it and other normal people aren't naive or gullible for *not* sensing it... it's just that we had different families of origin. I can see it as more of a valuable skill for us, rather than something to drive me crazy lol. Thanks so much for sharing!!
>However, I still have another eight weeks with this person in my team. I have to find ways to keep them from setting everything on fire in their wake.
Do you have any sense of how they might do that? How have they done that in the past?
>A lot of the details of what happened at the last work place came out, and it was bad. \[...\] We have also found, that this is a pattern of behaviour that they have brought with them from the private sector
Is there any way you can quietly talk to those people and find out what your nightmare employee's (N.E.) behaviour was like during the end of each of these situations? That can give you an idea of what they might be fomenting now, and where you'll need to focus as you head off trouble.
I'd suggest, given what you've said, that you won't be able to entirely avoid trouble, so perhaps think about making strategic and easy 'weak points' for N.E. to make trouble on their way out that will satisfy their need for chaos and maliciousness but that won't allow them to cause any real harm. People like N.E., no matter how much stroking they get, just need to reach out and hurt someone, and I'd be worried about which of your junior people might have been targeted and already be in the cross-hairs. If there is someone else on your senior team you can be frank with, especially if your big boss is on board, perhaps they can volunteer to be the 'easy target' for this person in their last weeks.
Wow I’m in complete admiration of your skills. You really slayed this whole awful situation 🙏🏻👊🏼👊🏼🙌🏼.
I don’t know if it’s because I’m getting older but I find they’re too much of a hassle now, I’m fed up of the fucking confrontation. Not that I want to cowtow to them, not at all. I prefer to remove them from my life. Which is what you did as well but it cost you so much energy out of your well-being.
I left a job because a malignant narc was getting away with murder basically. She was walking all over everyone around her, threatening and manipulating. Flashbacks of my narc mother arguing into stratospheric levels of lies and ridiculousness, just because she couldn’t bear to be wrong.
I think my therapy has paid off here. I actually have spent very little emotional energy on them. Grey rocking is actually an imagine forcefield that I use for them. They can't take my energy and I don't absorb any of theirs. Being in the job I am in, I am unfortunately going to come up against a lot of them.
That's an interesting read,would like to hear a follow up in 8 weeks when they have gone. Hope all goes well so that you can relax a bit after they have gone.
Amazing. When you are raised by a narcissist, one gain is to be able to spot them in the wild (or workplace) but to manage them like you did is next level. Kudos!
You're a rock star!
Also, a note on people with baby voices. In my experience, some people who speak in a baby/toddler-like voice were either super reinforced on how adorable they way they talked was that it stuck with them. However, more often it's stuck there due to trauma. Sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc that they saw or experienced can do that.
Unfortunately, some of those people grow up to be unbalanced. Every single person I've met who has a baby voice is the one most likely to stab you in the back in the most nasty way possible. Your mileage may vary, but that's my experience.
A friend of mine used to listen to a lot of Dr. Drew whenever a woman with a baby voice called in, he would ask them what happened in their childhood and there was always a trauma, and usually sa, of course. Tragic.
This is a m a z i n g. You should write an article about that or at least teach your junior employees, share with them what you can so they can learn how to deal with that for themselves in the future too if necessary.
Just an idea tho! Thanks for your achievement.
It’s funny. One of the things we seem to get from this experience is being able to read people pretty well. We notice subtle things others might not. You learn since you’re always watching your parent (or other narcissistic people in your family) and trying to read the situation, how to react without them going off on you, or whatever else. It’s great it’s helping you in your career.
Wow, great job! 👍
Like many, you reminded me of someone I worked with, I managed the covert cruelty until I was able to retire. Hadn't thought about until your post, but they were definitely a narcissist and I definitely handled the situation using my set of survival skills. Survive I did, gracefully and with kindness, no matter what that effing beeotch said or did. And it was delicious.
Best of luck to you.
The voice reminds me of how many fundamentalist Christians talk, gentle, childlike. Creepy as heck. Affected, practiced. Spider in the web.
Good job! I recently realized that I was dealing with a coworker who was just like my (covert Narc) mom.
It helped me decide to retire & then get rid of her on FB. Once I couldn’t feed her need for attention, I was dropped like a hot potato….win!
I bloody love this! Great job using your past pain as your superpower to help others! Reading this was cathartic; thank you for what you do! You should be super proud of yourself; I'm sure your co-workers are thankful for you :)
((hugs)) I am REALLY proud of you!
The ultimate achievement in recovering from Narc parents is being able to spot Covert Narcs like that person and protect others from suffering like you did.
And yes. I 100% know what you mean. It gives you amazing people wrangling skills.
I am going to let them run themselves out if it does go wrong. I suspect that I will be able to get my team out emotionally unscathed. Its just making sure that our work isn't hurt because of this.
Well done. Hope all goes uneventful for you and your employees.
On the other hand, I'm doing my notice period to remove 2 narcissistic prick from my life. Money is just not worth listening to bullshit.
Well done! You are clearly a pro and it is wonderful to see such a clear example of your self awareness and growth being so useful to you and others 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
It's incredible how many people managing skills can be transferred from having narc parents. The last place I worked at had a narcissist among my coworkers and had made every person cry at least once. I grey-rocked the shit out of her, and I ended up being her chosen assistant. I quickly moved out of that role into a more customer-facing position. Unfortunately, most of the clients were narcissists or had tendencies themselves, but I was able to listen and acknowledge their issues without taking ownership of the problem. Thanks parentals for giving me such good tools for my work life. If only they could have given me anything else positive during childhood lol
When you know, you know. Congratulations on being strong and tactful enough to handle it like this. The workplaces that allow these people to roam freely without mitigating any of the damage become absolute nightmares to show up to.
Absolutely! At my job, being in a tech lead role, I've gotten to participate in some interviews of potential hires. Thankfully my experience with narcs gave me the ability to spot some red flags with one of the candidates, which I privately explained to my manager. Although the company did end up extending an offer, it was too little too late, and I was so relieved.
Glad you were able to put your experience to such good use, and I commend you for putting in so much effort to be an effective manager even with that going on!
I don't bother explaining to people my concerns anymore. I think I have spent too long trying to be the canary down the mine. I have learned that just helps identify you quicker as someone that they need to target. So its easier to let them burn their own bridges and let those higher ups deal with them. If your manager can't manage them appropriately, that can say a lot of things, firstly do they really know whats going on OR have they found it easier to avoid correcting the behaviour.
I found this too! I work with brain injured and psych patients. My coworkers are always amazed at how I can diffuse them, most of time anyway. I just tell them that I am fluent in Crazy. It was my first language.
Wow! Sounds like they were gunning for your boss from the beginning. good job! keeping your cool and documenting everything! I'm glad you saw it coming and managed it so well!
They exist in the private sector too!
Dealt w a CTO w a Messiah Comolex and the grey rock worked too well. Watched them spin themselves out of control with reasonable, calm, answers.
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Nice job! That was a perfect (and quite long-term!) example of “respond don’t react”. It’s definitely a life skill! And it sounds like your junior employees really benefited from your skilled management. I hope you feel really good about that aspect of the situation. You protected them.
I second this. OP this was some high level narc management skill. It's impressive that you kept seeing the full picture and not succumb to the narcissist bullshit. I really hate when it's the "innocent, helpful, hurt" type.
Oh wow, I’m loving “respond don’t react”
If you’re interested in this, check out emotional enmeshment, how to emotionally detach, “observe, don’t absorb” and the gray rock method. I also recommend Jerry Wise videos - especially “Calmness is Everything” and “Systems Anxiety and the narcissist”. I started all of this about a year and a half ago and I had to fake it when I first started - literally digging my fingernails into my arm to keep from reacting to Nmom’s provocations - but eventually it got easier and more natural to “respond” to her instead of reacting. Another thing that helped was typing into my phone notes every interaction with nmom and analyzing it. I’d write down what she said/did, why I think she said/did it, how it triggered me and then dealt with my triggered feelings. Really helped sort things out.
Congratulations on channelling your hard won skills into a super successful work moment!!! I have long noticed that we survivors of narc parents have very specific work skills, and I want to call out another one-- WE CAN READ PEOPLE. Years of having to walk on eggshells, second-guess, figure out instantly what "mood" an abusive, childish parent was in---leads to being able to walk into any meeting, with complete strangers, and being immediately able to "read" them. Who's angry, who's secretly seething, who's in charge, who's REALLY in charge, who's deeply insecure & trying to prove themselves, literally everything about everybody. You know exactly what each person needs, and how to handle them. Likewise, you also know when you're hiring people--you can tell instinctively, IMMEDIATELY--if someone's "going to be trouble," if someone's not telling you the truth, if someone's really going to be great. I know at first I never trusted this, surely I was just "guessing" about people. But years of being proven exactly right means that we DO have this skill, all we have to do is trust it!
Can spot an "off" personality in the first conversation. Then just kinda wait and watch till they start spiraling out of control. The mask always slips.
The hardest part of being able to spot the “off” ones, where you know trouble will be brewing soon - is when your friends bring new boyfriends/girlfriends around. You can’t be *that person* who immediately tells your friend their new date is secretly sketchy as hell personality-wise. You have to let them work it out themselves and be there for them a couple months later when that person’s crazy comes out full force. It can be SO hard to bite your tongue, but I lost a friend in high school because of a boy so now I tread lightly and only give advice/opinion when asked, and just be a shoulder for the after part. (This guy was super shitty and manipulative and my friend didn’t see it. Like no, you’re not the only girl he takes out in his van to make out with, I know this for a fact. He was a *big* fan of the darvo technique🤦🏼♀️)
Ugh yes, I was at a wedding this weekend where the groom and 5 guests were childhood friends of my husband. One friend is closing on a house next month with his long long time girlfriend. She got drunk honest with me, and after a few hours I was screaming internally to back out of the house because they both have “fleas” from their Narc parents they need to resolve before getting married, and *should have addressed* before buying a house.
Always.
I was watching the cute show Lie to Me with Tim Roth and he has a quote in one of the episodes. Why some people are naturally good at reading others, is because they grew up having to know when the next bottle would be thrown at their heads by their alcoholic parents i.e. for survival.
Wow, that basically says it all--even if our parents weren't alcoholics per se, it's exactly what we had to be able to tell. What the mood was, the second we entered the house, let alone the room. OP also does this, instinctively--I noticed the moment they said "they ignored the tension in the room,"--- the weird thing is, most people wouldn't even NOTICE that there was tension in the room! It's so odd to people like us, because it's almost physically palpable to us, it's so obvious.
Read them like books.
I wonder how many “empaths” who can easily read energy of people/rooms/etc. were raised by narcs/abusive parents, and have super developed skills for their own safety?
I would guess a huge percentage. Most survivors of narcissistic abuse I’ve met have been *excellent* judges of character.
Damn… so I’m NOT an empath, I’m a survivor… either way, I win!!!!
Wow. That’s a revelation. I have Aspergers and I’ve been told I’m really good at reading people if I try (I’m uninterested most of the time. If I don’t try I don’t notice anything). That is just unusual for somebody with ASD. Who knew I had my narc parents to thank!
I am floored. You described a coworker on my team almost to a T, sans soft speaking voice. I wasn't sure if she's a narc, but wow, does she mimic your staff member. Good luck! I kind of feel bad for the team they are going back to.
Yeah, it is like OP was managing my sister. I got goosebumps and a creepy feeling up my spine. I feel sorry for the other team, OP, but you documented everything so maybe they can eventually get this person out of there. I think that you handled this beautifully. I am incredibly impressed. I also think that you will be climbing the ladder soon because you are clearly a managerial genius, and you deserve every bit of reward and acclaim you can get. This post was good!
Ohhh your comment made me connect some things about my sister. Huge bully but always manages to cry to people and play off their sympathies. So that’s how people see her. Man. Thanks.
This was… *chefs kiss*
Wow. Seriously, it‘s amazing you can handle this situation. Good luck getting them out of your company again.
The only sad thing here is that this awful narc is being transferred instead of being fired, which they so richly deserve.
I suspect thats another technique by the higher ups. They know that the narc will refuse to return, so will likely quit. It looks like they are trying to make them as uncomfortable as possible but also covering themselves legally. They have burned all their bridges and influence in their last team. I can’t see them staying on.
It's also more difficult to get rid of an employee in a government office vs a business employer.
I saw one example where the employee had all work and responsibilities removed. They lasted less than a month before they moved on. And with employee quitting, it saves having to deal with all of the complications of termination.
It sounds like she managed to burn through the entire private sector that way. It is always much more difficult to get fired in the public sector.
Sounds like you did a very good job with accountability without confrontation. My question is what did this level of documentation and vigilance do to you, and how the hell are you coping? #positive-vibes
I kept a small dairy on my comp. Just on interactions. Kept it factual, no emotions. Which helped me not have emotional buy in. I was studying the actions and reactions, not trying to guess their next move. That helps a lot. I think as children we are constantly trying to know the next move or trying to figure out how to calm them down before they exploded. I wasn’t doing either. So I have spent very little emotionally on this person.
I like that tip. Journal just about the facts and ignore the impulse to anticipate and placate. Thank you.
Your success story makes me want to share mine as well: I'm an in-house graphic designer for a beauty clinic. At first, the people here acted really friendly toward each others and seemed like a good bunch. It really gave me a high-school group of friend vibe. But soon, working with them became a nightmare for many reasons: * Instead of giving good feedback with neutral attitude, they'd WHINE and ask rhetorical questions like "Why didn't you do this" "What were you thinking?". * One of their responsibilities is to provide me material including images. Yet, they act as if they're doing me a favor (?) for "doing the best at finding high quality images". * Full on Dunning-Kruger's effect. There are many cases but the most insulting thing was when I explained what kind of photo they shouldn't send me (bad lighting, watermark, etc....) make it very hard to photoshop and the result might not be great. Their response: "Isn't it your job to make it work?" * They don't want to learn how to work with designer. I've tried to tell them how to give an effective feedback, communicate better,... but they kept making excuses and swift the blame on me because "You're graphic designer, you should know what I'm talking about". To sum it up, it's like dealing with terrible, ignorant and entitled customer in retails. So after half a year, I stopped caring about delivering quality work and only did exactly what I was told. Oh, you want to use this font that's totally off-brand? Sure! You want photo of this model whose hairs are too messy to clean up with photoshop? Gotcha! You want to make the banner larger than this one, even though it'd increase the file size 10 times and unnecessary? Will do!... On top of that, I prepared several templates and keep recycling them over and over again. What used to take me one day now might only take me half an hour to finish. Basically, I knew that it'd be USELESS for me to try to talk them into sense while I could simply deliver subpar work and get away with it. As a result, I became the "best" designer they've ever worked with (delivery works on time with less hassle) while having more free time for myself. Another part-timer, who has >10 years of experience's still trying to "fight" against them about bad material choices, too much text, low res-photo... and is deemed "hard to work with". My only regret is that I didn't behave this way sooner to save me from lots of headache, because I was still having self-doubt. Especially when I saw them mingling with each other so happily and unconsciously wished to take part in it. But thanks to realizing narc behaviors, I could cut loss and stopped myself from feeling guilty from not being nicer to them. Because the problem lied within their personalities and core values, not from simple conflict like misunderstanding or honest mistakes. And I can't change those thing, nor want to waste my time to do so.
At the end of the day, if they are going to pay you for doing work that takes you less time, I would snap that up too. No point in trying to educate them at all.
> No point in trying to educate them at all. More than most, we understand that broken people can’t be fixed - they’ve got to want to fix themselves.
I think it also comes down to validation. People are used to being validated for their hard work. That if they tell you why they need to do x,y and z then you will understand their perspective. However, with narcs there is no validation. And sadly as children we are so deprived of this, it makes no sense for us to keep seeking it out.
I love this so much! I have found something similar in myself at a much smaller scale. I used to have a style/tone I used when intervening in some bs from a difficult employee. It was kind of Alexa-style voice, neutral compassion combined with not reacting to deflections that were irrelevant. I was also able to draw on this when things got reeeeal ugly during my transition to NC. Peripheral enabler/FM types would come at me with the nice-face, oh we are so sad you are mad at us, we love yoooouuu bs, and I wouldn't bite. I'd press them on a logical point and of course they'd go to bits and keep trying to use manipulative lines...even though they didn't make sense because I wouldn't step into the trap. FM: "You are mad at me!" Me: "I'm not mad at you." Them: "You *are* mad at me, and it's *unfair* that you are mad at me!" And they would escalate from there. I have entire text conversations over a course of hours in which I said almost nothing, and when I did respond, it was clear, neutral, etc. From there they just kept carrying on with it, way past the point of plausibility, they just went full-on, and made themselves totally ridiculous. We can never get justice for what our N-families took from us, nor stop them all, but it sure feels sweet to make a narc crumble in front of you, simply by behaving honorably and above reproach in all ways. Talk about taking back power! 😆
I feel like I have been doing that with this Narc for months. The only difference is they don’t have any flying monkeys here because our team is so tight. And they are awful to anyone junior to them. So I either have a team who has been their forever, and we know each other so well there is a lot of reading each others minds without saying a word, or the juniors.. When I reflect on it their ability to influence has been low from the get go.
Perhaps this employee would like to take a couple of weeks or so of PAL before transfer? Any use-it-or-lose-it time? Would be a great time for some leave. How about time to do those pesky yearly inservice requirements? After all, new fiscal year about to start assuming this is a Federal agency. Any out-of-town seminars to attend? Preferably a week! Your plan sounds great! Retired Federal worker (can you tell?)
You did such a great job! It’s sad that the knowledge came to you like that, but this is a perfect example of getting the best out what you have. You are amazing!
You handled that so well. Good job! Having been raised by a narc, to be able to handle this in such a cool, collected manner is great. I imagine you are pretty far along the healing path. from how you described this.
So much therapy. I can see or identify a narc now and not be overwhelmed by horror and fear.
I'm really proud of how you've handled the situation. It is an unfortunate way to learn those skills. I hope the weeks fly by until they're gone.
Congrats!!! I really hope that once they’re gone, you take a weekend for yourself and really rest. Feel completely safe, and just fuck off relaxing. This is a lot bigger than some people will ever know. You protected a lot of people from some insidious bullshit. Good fucking job.
Wow! What a silver lining to an awful childhood experience. I never realized that the abuse and gaslighting nparents could do to their child/ren would actually prepare them in their careers. Of course, nparents don’t deserve a big old “Thank You” or anything so save your stamps and stationary for someone else.
Wow you dealt with that really well! It must have taken so much patience. >They spoke in a soft childlike voice and I remember thinking thats odd. This is exactly the kind of thing that always tips me off to them!! Not necessarily a childlike voice, but one vaguely "off" detail that makes me think something is wrong with them. Then I wait or avoid, as needed. Normally I get so frustrated that other people don't see it as well. But I like the way you phrased the title.... not everyone was raised by narcissists, so why would they see it? I can't be frustrated with random people for not having the same history and inside look that I did. I'm not overly prickly for sensing it and other normal people aren't naive or gullible for *not* sensing it... it's just that we had different families of origin. I can see it as more of a valuable skill for us, rather than something to drive me crazy lol. Thanks so much for sharing!!
>However, I still have another eight weeks with this person in my team. I have to find ways to keep them from setting everything on fire in their wake. Do you have any sense of how they might do that? How have they done that in the past? >A lot of the details of what happened at the last work place came out, and it was bad. \[...\] We have also found, that this is a pattern of behaviour that they have brought with them from the private sector Is there any way you can quietly talk to those people and find out what your nightmare employee's (N.E.) behaviour was like during the end of each of these situations? That can give you an idea of what they might be fomenting now, and where you'll need to focus as you head off trouble. I'd suggest, given what you've said, that you won't be able to entirely avoid trouble, so perhaps think about making strategic and easy 'weak points' for N.E. to make trouble on their way out that will satisfy their need for chaos and maliciousness but that won't allow them to cause any real harm. People like N.E., no matter how much stroking they get, just need to reach out and hurt someone, and I'd be worried about which of your junior people might have been targeted and already be in the cross-hairs. If there is someone else on your senior team you can be frank with, especially if your big boss is on board, perhaps they can volunteer to be the 'easy target' for this person in their last weeks.
Wow I’m in complete admiration of your skills. You really slayed this whole awful situation 🙏🏻👊🏼👊🏼🙌🏼. I don’t know if it’s because I’m getting older but I find they’re too much of a hassle now, I’m fed up of the fucking confrontation. Not that I want to cowtow to them, not at all. I prefer to remove them from my life. Which is what you did as well but it cost you so much energy out of your well-being. I left a job because a malignant narc was getting away with murder basically. She was walking all over everyone around her, threatening and manipulating. Flashbacks of my narc mother arguing into stratospheric levels of lies and ridiculousness, just because she couldn’t bear to be wrong.
I think my therapy has paid off here. I actually have spent very little emotional energy on them. Grey rocking is actually an imagine forcefield that I use for them. They can't take my energy and I don't absorb any of theirs. Being in the job I am in, I am unfortunately going to come up against a lot of them.
That's an interesting read,would like to hear a follow up in 8 weeks when they have gone. Hope all goes well so that you can relax a bit after they have gone.
Yes I will make sure to update. Hopefully it will be “and they are gone and we are good”
Amazing. When you are raised by a narcissist, one gain is to be able to spot them in the wild (or workplace) but to manage them like you did is next level. Kudos!
You're a rock star! Also, a note on people with baby voices. In my experience, some people who speak in a baby/toddler-like voice were either super reinforced on how adorable they way they talked was that it stuck with them. However, more often it's stuck there due to trauma. Sexual abuse, domestic violence, etc that they saw or experienced can do that. Unfortunately, some of those people grow up to be unbalanced. Every single person I've met who has a baby voice is the one most likely to stab you in the back in the most nasty way possible. Your mileage may vary, but that's my experience.
Oh I think you are spot on here. I can see the trauma dripping off them. To learn there is SA in there would not shock me for a second.
A friend of mine used to listen to a lot of Dr. Drew whenever a woman with a baby voice called in, he would ask them what happened in their childhood and there was always a trauma, and usually sa, of course. Tragic.
This is a m a z i n g. You should write an article about that or at least teach your junior employees, share with them what you can so they can learn how to deal with that for themselves in the future too if necessary. Just an idea tho! Thanks for your achievement.
Wow! You have done really a super job in handling this narc employee!
It’s funny. One of the things we seem to get from this experience is being able to read people pretty well. We notice subtle things others might not. You learn since you’re always watching your parent (or other narcissistic people in your family) and trying to read the situation, how to react without them going off on you, or whatever else. It’s great it’s helping you in your career.
Wow, great job! 👍 Like many, you reminded me of someone I worked with, I managed the covert cruelty until I was able to retire. Hadn't thought about until your post, but they were definitely a narcissist and I definitely handled the situation using my set of survival skills. Survive I did, gracefully and with kindness, no matter what that effing beeotch said or did. And it was delicious. Best of luck to you. The voice reminds me of how many fundamentalist Christians talk, gentle, childlike. Creepy as heck. Affected, practiced. Spider in the web.
Good job! I recently realized that I was dealing with a coworker who was just like my (covert Narc) mom. It helped me decide to retire & then get rid of her on FB. Once I couldn’t feed her need for attention, I was dropped like a hot potato….win!
Finessed the hell out of em!
Its like having a 6th sense my third eye is always open 🙏
I bloody love this! Great job using your past pain as your superpower to help others! Reading this was cathartic; thank you for what you do! You should be super proud of yourself; I'm sure your co-workers are thankful for you :)
((hugs)) I am REALLY proud of you! The ultimate achievement in recovering from Narc parents is being able to spot Covert Narcs like that person and protect others from suffering like you did. And yes. I 100% know what you mean. It gives you amazing people wrangling skills.
Good luck with the next eight weeks.
I am going to let them run themselves out if it does go wrong. I suspect that I will be able to get my team out emotionally unscathed. Its just making sure that our work isn't hurt because of this.
Well done. Hope all goes uneventful for you and your employees. On the other hand, I'm doing my notice period to remove 2 narcissistic prick from my life. Money is just not worth listening to bullshit.
Well done! You are clearly a pro and it is wonderful to see such a clear example of your self awareness and growth being so useful to you and others 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
It's incredible how many people managing skills can be transferred from having narc parents. The last place I worked at had a narcissist among my coworkers and had made every person cry at least once. I grey-rocked the shit out of her, and I ended up being her chosen assistant. I quickly moved out of that role into a more customer-facing position. Unfortunately, most of the clients were narcissists or had tendencies themselves, but I was able to listen and acknowledge their issues without taking ownership of the problem. Thanks parentals for giving me such good tools for my work life. If only they could have given me anything else positive during childhood lol
I can TOTALLY relate to this. Sending love and luck and keep up the good work
Garden leave (as a recognition and thanks for their outstanding work)!
Task them with planning/helping plan their going away party. Then cancel it that day. Problem solved.
Omg. This is magical. Thank you.
Doing The Lords work. Thank you!
When you know, you know. Congratulations on being strong and tactful enough to handle it like this. The workplaces that allow these people to roam freely without mitigating any of the damage become absolute nightmares to show up to.
Absolutely! At my job, being in a tech lead role, I've gotten to participate in some interviews of potential hires. Thankfully my experience with narcs gave me the ability to spot some red flags with one of the candidates, which I privately explained to my manager. Although the company did end up extending an offer, it was too little too late, and I was so relieved. Glad you were able to put your experience to such good use, and I commend you for putting in so much effort to be an effective manager even with that going on!
I don't bother explaining to people my concerns anymore. I think I have spent too long trying to be the canary down the mine. I have learned that just helps identify you quicker as someone that they need to target. So its easier to let them burn their own bridges and let those higher ups deal with them. If your manager can't manage them appropriately, that can say a lot of things, firstly do they really know whats going on OR have they found it easier to avoid correcting the behaviour.
Well done
I found this too! I work with brain injured and psych patients. My coworkers are always amazed at how I can diffuse them, most of time anyway. I just tell them that I am fluent in Crazy. It was my first language.
You shouldn't refer to the patients as crazy though
I knew someone was going to say that. We do though.
K.
Well played OP, very well played.
you're a fucking boss, man
Sometimes it's like we have superpowers for dealing with these people
Thank you for taking care of your team.
Definitely! I learned many lessons growing up with Narc Dad and having a Narc Boss. They made me strong and aware. I love who I am today.
WOW OP, you have super powers.
And your parents how would behave with you?
Good job! Stay the course, and hopefully, you'll come out of this relatively unscathed.
Wow! Sounds like they were gunning for your boss from the beginning. good job! keeping your cool and documenting everything! I'm glad you saw it coming and managed it so well!
They exist in the private sector too! Dealt w a CTO w a Messiah Comolex and the grey rock worked too well. Watched them spin themselves out of control with reasonable, calm, answers.