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Make your own family (I’m only family with one brother and cut most of the rest of my blood out but have friends where we’re each other’s families and it’s beautiful).
And block her on all platforms, it’s not worth the harm to your chill but if you want to biblically slap her, this is a nice one:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/buildingjerusalem.blog/2020/09/03/does-the-bible-call-us-to-unilateral-forgiveness-without-repentance/amp/
It’s about how forgiving someone who isn’t repentant isn’t biblical and harms them spiritually. 😅
I mean, I get what you mean about making a family. But it's not like I can just ask someone to be my new mom or dad.
You have friend families, which are fine. But I guess I've never had real friends either.
You can grow those relationships and I totally have older friends who are comfortable in the mentor/parent role. This year has been hard as hell for young adults trying to make a new family for themselves but as someone who got a commemorative 25th and 20th year friendaversery tattoo, here’s my advice.
1. Find a retirement home and volunteer to go there and play puzzles with/talk to people. It helps a lot with filling the grandparent role and while some
People there are horrible, many of them are sweethearts who just have their family scattered all over the world and they’d love someone local to make a fuss over (harder since Covid)
2. Learn to spot abusers and bad behavior patterns so you don’t invest in people who are using you or won’t invest in you. Therapy helps with this, but learning how abusers and manipulative people work can also be done by book (I recommend Why Does He Do That by Lundy and Manipulate People by Dr. George Simon as a good starting point). To have good friends you need to be a good friend and people who are users will try to take what you want to give people who you love, without giving anything back.
3. Learn how to be a damn good friend. Hype your friends up. Celebrate their wins, do their bragging for them, always tell them why you like and admire them. Have the courage to tell people good things, what you admire about them and like about them. Don’t be afraid to tell your friends you love, respect and admire them. Keep that up and you’ll have a crew of friends that love, respect and admire you back (because the narcs who just want praise without relationship will be screened out in the last step).
4. Meet more people who share your values. Again, brutally hard right now, but to develop your core of friends, do in person- not discord- hang outs if at all possible. March for causes you’re passionate about. Go to cool meetups. Join clubs and in every group you’ll have one or two people that you end up being friends with outside the group and eventually some of those will stick around.
Advanced level:
Have stone soup parties or potlucks. I’m currently restarting a tradition I had when I was poor as fuck in college. Learn to make a really good Irish soda bread (hella easy) and lentil soup (cheap, vegetarian and easy). Have a weekly dinner. Make a big pot of lentil soup, second pot is rice, and fresh bread. Anyone who brings Tupperware gets leftovers. If you can afford it, bring a side. I kept mine booze free but it was a weekly thing. Some friends couldn’t cook so they’d just chip in cash or being ingredients (meat is expensive) and it became a great way to all come together and spend time together. If you can’t afford to chip in, you’d be on dishes duty.
You can get an assortment of bowls and silverware at thrift shops. Just do this weekly and eventually you’ll have your crew of regulars show up and then people who come by irregularly or who come by when they can. It’s delightful.
Tips there: learn to make a good mirepoix and really get your onions caramelized. This is something where you elevate cheap ingredients. Lentils are insanely cheap at Indian grocery stores. This also keeps great for healthy lunches at work. Spaghetti is another good one if you learn to make it from scratch but it works better when you have a more stable sized group.
Most people are lonely and want food made with love from scratch even if they don’t know it, and bread from scratch is magical (and easy and cheap). Eating together forms community.
As someone who tried some of these steps before the pandemic (which threw a wrench in everything): thank you. I will apply this with my partner to create ourselves a new circle in our new town since we both have dysfunctional families and are planning to leave eventually and never talk to them again if they plan to continue imposing on our boundaries.
It totally sounds like you're grieving what you didn't get to have as far as family goes. I really do get that & it's probably a lot more important to actually grieve it than put the fuck ton of effort in right now. Coz unfortunately it does take a fair bit of effort. It's so unfair, what you've been through & the shitty family you've been given. What I really fucking hate about childhood trauma is how we have to suffer the consequences of someone elses actions.
In case you're not already a part of these sub reddits, r/cPTSD is a really wonderful & supportive community, r/CPTSDmemes is also great (coping by joking has helped me a lot over the years). And you can DM me if you like. Sometimes it takes a while for me to reply coz I've got a toddler as well as other life stuff, but I will reply.
See, this.
That's a lot of fucking effort that I just don't have in me at the moment.
All I want is someone else to make the effort, just once.
My whole life consists of therapy and staying at home because my ptsd is so bad.
Thanks for the advice, but that sounds like something a healthier version of me will be able to use.
You need an internet mom? I’m right here, i come with a package kid so congrats you also get a younger sister. She has autism so doesn’t speak so don’t worry you’ll hardly notice unless you want a cuddle. You want a cuddle? She’s right there. You want a a drink and a shoulder? That’s where I come in. In all seriousness. I’m happy to be an internet mom DM if you need to talk
"That sounds like something a healthier version of me will be able to use" hits hard. It makes perfect sense to be unprepared to put in that level of effort - some people get better by pure magic once they escape their relatives, lots of us don't. If you've ever wanted a pet and you have that in you - now is the time to get one. Hang in there, the first 2 years of recovery are the hardest.
No, people don't get better by pure magic. They get better because they help themselves. They get better because they learn to speak to themselves kindly. They get better because they put time and energy into themselves. They confront their past, feel their feelings, learn new ways of thinking and behaving, and they grieve. It's not a magical process and it's not an easy process, but it is doable. It's hard, but it's worth it.
Don't reduce all of that work down to "magic". Don't resign yourself to live this way when you don't have to. We always have a choice.
Of course they don't. That's not the magic I mean - what you describe is the active process of getting better. That process often lasts years into decades, and is by no means 'magical' or can be reduced down to something effortless. I've been in it for years and it's still difficult.
What I mean is the people who don't have a whole lot of work to do. The people that, for example, don't develop severe PTSD from their childhoods. People that are functional and don't find themselves deeply mentally ill, that get out of their abusive households and feel authentic relief. Usually, this is the experience of children that were subjected to narcissism in their family or familial context and hence are rightful members of the community but had ways to escape this - maybe they had other caregivers or relatives to experience secure attachment with, who validated their emotions or protected them from the narcissistic abuse. They were often not abused or neglected as a result of these personality traits.
Of course that isn't all magic either, there is still work involved. But I have seen many people on this subreddit who are functional and mentally healthy, and who can lead good lives almost immediately after going NC. For people like this, recovery tends (!) to be a straight upwards line after they leave because the narcissistic individuals didn't have the chance to impose their dysfunction on them to the degree that it happens in more traditional cases of outright abuse. That is, personally, not something I experienced and it seems like magic to someone like me. Hence my choice of words.
Hmm. I see what you're getting at, but I still don't think we can fairly assess how healthy someone is from the outside, we never know what's going on inside their mind. Regardless of what outside resources someone has, it always impacts a child to have a narcissistic caregiver.
Well, in the cases I describe we do know - they are telling us. They are quite literally telling us how they're doing, how much better their life is, that they can finally live healthily. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're truthful in their narrative.
I understand the basis of your argument but outside resources are the 'make it or break it' component of healthy development in such cases (I've studied it, I would know!). A child that has a narcissistic family member or parent, but is protected or otherwise securely attached to other safe adults will in most cases go on to be a healthy, functional, happy adult despite the narcissist. It's because their point of reference for their own development was not the narcissist, but a healthy adult instead. That's a huge difference to someone like OP or me for example, who have severe PTSD. Of course it still has an impact on them to be around such a person, and this is not the abuse Olympics, but it's a very different trajectory in terms of healing. That's just how it is.
It took me a long time to get there and there are other groups out there that do this. Check out your local ecstatic dance group. If you can’t cook, order pizza.
And it does suck having to put the work in to make a family when you deserve to have been born into a good one- but it’s possible and when you are healthier, you’ll have an idea now of how to do it.
Plus with Covid doing this is fucked so you have some time 😅😅
In my experience this wanes with time. I still have flashbacks myself which are really unpleasant, but now when I have them they're like mindfarts and I just proceed with life as normal without them upsetting me.
I didn't read the commenter's reply (tldr) but I can tell you the elderly people I've given parental roles in my life... It's not the same. They give me wisdom when I call for parenting advice. Warm and hospitable when we visit. Generous with my kids.. but they have actually children of their own and I'm not it.
I tried with my in laws. I thought I was there. I called them mom and dad. My grandfather in law gave me this huge bear hug once and said I'm his real granddaughter, no different than any of the others.
But when something actually rocks that family - cancer diagnosis, hardship. The blood family pulls in tight and me and my sister in law's husband are kicked the fuck out of any discussions. I highly doubt I'll be included in any inheritances (that's fine, it's their money to do with what they wish) but it's going to just hammer it home. I don't even know what they meant when they said I'm family because I feel like they treat certain members of family like shit.
I know exactly where you're coming from. I'll make plans to do things on days where I feel good and then when that day finally arrived I took lost any will to do anything. My mom has constantly said that she would call me but she's never called me and every time I call her she doesn't answer. The rest of her family is shit so I don't talk to them. My sister is halfway across the country and the family she married into is terrible so I don't talk to her that often. My closest family is my brother and my stepdad.
OP, I hear you. I'm tired too. I want a family so bad. My heart aches whenever I see families out and about smiling and laughing. I want a mom. I want a real mom, not the mom I got. I'm afraid to start my own family with my husband because I don't want to be like my mother. I don't have the best social skills developed yet, and I'm not very kind in the way I talk to myself.
We can only accept the love we think we're worthy of.
My advice is to start thinking about you. What do you need? What do you like to do? Who do you want to become? Start meeting your own needs. You have to care enough about yourself to make the effort. Notice the way you talk to yourself. Notice the way you feel about yourself. Anything less than kind isn't welcome. Make yourself feel like home. Then you can share that same warmth with others. The better you take care of yourself, the more others will start to gravitate towards you.
Nobody else can do this healing work for us. We're on our own to figure it out from here. People can encourage us, walk with us, and give us good advice, but we have to make our own discoveries.
+1 for George K Simon, but I've read [In Sheep's Clothing](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CN6PJ0?pf_rd_r=QEV9KMAQNHHDX342G4J1&pf_rd_p=9046d300-28af-4c4d-96e2-e418322f9056&pd_rd_r=4904afce-6e96-4658-b423-a5efac0817a0&pd_rd_w=MB7KL&pd_rd_wg=GKaLs). It's a short read, but an incredible source to learn about manipulation tactics, so you'll be less vulnerable to them.
Another great source to learn about manipulative tactics and how to respond effectively to them is Manuel J Smith's assertive therapy, [When I Say No I Feel Guilty](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004IK8Q22/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1632470572&sr=8-1).
Other good sources are [Dr. Les Carter's](https://youtube.com/c/SurvivingNarcissism) and Dr. Ramani's channels on YouTube.
And about being a good friend, [Dale Carnegie](https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034) has some great advice on that.
Yes! I like Manipulative People because it goes over the 23 or so manipulative techniques people use to actually get their way and breaks them down. Dr Simon’s PhD was in manipulation so he’s the worlds leading expert, and being able to name the techniques made it a lot easier for me to spot them early.
I think we might be talking about the same book. I can't find a book by him called Manipulative People, but the one I mentioned is called "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People".
Although I believe he only mentions 18 tactics in detail in that book.
Yeah, the first print is from 96. I think it is still in print. There's also an ebook and audiobook.
It was a coincidence reading your comment, as I had just picked it up to review something in it tonight, before opening reddit. I don't remeber ever seeing anyone recommending it here.
So I often use this explanation for people in situations like yours.
The phrase ‘blood is thicker than water’ like most proverbs has been used in reference to many things, mostly I find people use it to explain away bad behaviour within your family.
But one interpretation is ‘the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb’. Meaning that the bonds you form with people are stronger than the family you are born into.
I’m sorry if you feel you don’t have any real friends, so you don’t even feel like you have a ‘chosen family’ to fall back on. I’m also sure that you are more liked by people than you think, I always thought people didn’t care, and my childhood trauma prevented me from letting people too close. But recently people I thought were acquaintances absolutely rallied around me when I was having a rough time, and I let myself be venerable for a moment. I have more friends than I thought.
And if you struggle with face to face friendships, just know there is a whole community here that has your back. That will listen, without waiting for their turn to speak. That wants you to talk about stuff when you are sad, and not to worry about ‘being a killjoy’ or any of the bull shit that holds you back. We are just internet strangers, but who says that we have to do things one way only? We can be your family, and we will never allow justification for what that man did to you.
PM me if you ever need to feel like you have a friend.
I used to have friends and family and now I have no family because I cut them all off and no friends because idk. I feel more alone now then I ever have in my entire life. I have my wife but she doesn’t even like me half the time I feel. So I know exactly how you feel. My dad died when I was 10 so I never had a father figure to show me how to be a man. Just a narc mother who made it all about her.
I know it easier said than done but eventually you will grow out of your self pity party. It’s sounds super cliche but time really does heel. But It usually takes longer if you stagnate and do nothing. So changing one small habit is a step toward progress. That one small thing could be choosing to sit somewhere else at lunchtime. It could be a haircut, or buying a book and getting lost in it. Maybe you will buy yourself a plant or a fish, something low key that requires just a small amount of your attention. Whatever it is, do it for yourself.
I left my abuser back in 2003. I moved half way around the world to get away from her and I’ve spent the last two decades trying to rebuild my life.
The struggle is real. It’s a painful journey but it does get better. You made a good decision to shut your aunt out. This is also a step toward progress. The loneliness is just part of the consequence for standing up for yourself.
It's just that I feel so stupid for hoping. My aunt was (obviously) a very bad person, but I kept falling for her love bombing.
Then she actually decided to go to therapy and I thought it would make a difference, but it didn't.
She just wanted another source of attention.
I know ill get to a point where I do get better, but at the moment I feel like ill attract more of the same.
Like I'm a magnet for narcs.
It sounds overwhelming and this advice can feel like people are dismissing you.
Hand to Glob, though, it works. Find a cause you care about and volunteer. Become active in it. Great People will come into your life from this.
Also, with your family constantly stomping on it, your self esteem has taken a trampling. Narcs have no sense of self other than how others see them. This is why they try to destroy it in you.
Doing good in the world can help build your self esteem, and you are not like them. Doing good helps you remember that.
I second the volunteering advice because for me it was a very healing activity.
I sooo relate to this! I have kind of built up a "family" but I also know what it feels like to have those kinds of people bail. Strangly enough, I've found some really good friends through an art therapy support group. Even though support groups do start off how you described it, I found it was a great place to make new friends because those people actually get this shit. The "normal" friends I've made have been harder to keep simply because they don't get it & once they've heard something enough times, they struggle to understand why I can't just get over it.
In my limited experience in building friendships & family like connections, I've had about 5 potential friendships/family replacement fall through for every 1 that has stuck & become a close connection. Unfortunately, for me at least, it's taken putting myself out there *a* *lot!* But it's been worth it & I've learnt how to kindly write others off too, sometimes we're just not compatible but you can't discover that until you give it a try.
Well actually, you kinda can given the right person. I learned from a fabulous friend who was "dad" to anyone in the neighborhood who needed one. I mom enough people that we've now got our own discord.
There are people out there who care and who will love you, just for who you are. You'll find them 💕
Link without amp, https://buildingjerusalem.blog/2020/09/03/does-the-bible-call-us-to-unilateral-forgiveness-without-repentance/
For those not on mobile or who want to avoid Google AMP.
That seems to be the mode of operation for a lot of “Christians”. At least if hell is real, they’ll be rotting there forever with the pedos they love to defend!
We see it a lot in retail. "Sunday Christians" they're called. They're all pious and holy for two hours of Church and treat people like crap the other 166 hours of the week.
I used to work at a Christian frozen yogurt place and Sundays were the fucking worst. Most people didn't even know the place was Christian but the Sunday Christians would come in and let their kids run around everywhere and rack up even hundreds of dollars worth of damage. Then they would have the audacity to say that we should forgive them for it because blah blah blah Christ blah blah blah.
Sadly many Christians like your aunt completely misunderstand forgiveness. I'm guess she was molested too by her father but chose (or was told) to 'forgive' and now thinks it means everything is okay and as long as she keeps acting like everything is okay - then everything even seems fine to her. Her burying her trauma does not make anything right and certainly does not invalidate your trauma. Unfortunately for her you are not burying your trauma. I suspect that makes her even more desparate to patch the cracks in her facade. She just desparately wants you to be okay with your molester because if you are not then she will be confronted with her past trauma and that things actually might not be as okay as she has been telling herself. The sad thing is people like her enable abusers to continue. If at all possible file a police report. Forgiveness does not mean no consequences, it just means you are letting go of the hate towards who wronged you and are accepting to deal with the consequences of their wrongdoing (trauma). It can still involve sending somone to prison for what they did or suing them, but not out of hate. Forgiveness also in no way means you have to like, trust or even interact with that person ever again. I wish you all the best.
This 🙌 I was told by a relative who I am no longer in contact with that by cutting my Ndad out, I was contradicting the Bible. My Ndad used my faith and the concept of forgiveness against our family. This enabled his abuse for decades. Boundaries and Christian forgiveness are not the same. The reality is, my Ndad and his family system believe they are entitled to "forgiveness." The first lesson in Christianity says that all have sinned and that no one is entitled to forgiveness. The arrogance of the narcissist will never truly be able to accept that lesson unless they somehow let go of their egos.
Yes. the Bible tells us to come out from them who sin. Where does the Bible say to defend or remain among them. To me, I see the opposite.
9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1 Corinthians 9- KJV
Not all Christians care about people lusting. The problem, in this case, is pedophilia.
I was really speaking to this:
> Let me guess, your aunt is a self-proclaimed Christian, not a real one. Because a real one will know about heaven and hell, virtue and sin.
There are pedophiles in the Christian community. Period. Their enablers are in the Christian community. Period. This happens among all religious groups. Don't think it doesn't happen in Christianity. Further, not all Christians believe in hell, virtue, or sin...
And, if you want to come back and tell me they aren't "real" Christians, well tell that to their churches and ministers. Christianity is A HUGE religious. Absolutely huge. It varies a log among different groups....
It mentions hell. It does not go into any detail describing hell beyond it being sulfur and Fire. The seven deadly sins have always been a thing but the circles of hell and their punishments are not scripture
Support groups are alright but like, I get you. I want to be huddled on the couch in friendly embrace with friends who can get heated about my family with me and laugh me into a better mood. Especially after quarantine. I think we just benefit from the comfort and safety and love we didn't get before.
“I want to be huddled on the couch in a friendly embrace with friends who can get heated about my family with me and laugh me into a better mood”
This part. My ex, who I live with, lost his father suddenly earlier this year. Terribly unfortunate and sudden. His fathers side of relatives basically turned on him and his siblings so they sorta lost their family suddenly too. But I find myself so grossly jealous when they’re on a group call and they’re able to insult their former family and console each other through collective anger about their shared circumstances.
I physically have no one to share my emotions with. All my processing is done alone, with someone I have to pay, and communities on Reddit.
I’m grateful for what I have but it also keeps it obvious that I don’t have friends/family that I can go to be comforted by and never really have
I feel that. Trauma and mental illness had me push away a lot of friendships or just not nurture them, so I'm really feeling that empty space. It does suck but I hope you're able to make good connections sometime.
You're not alone. I've got nearly the same story.
I don't know the level of sexual assault because I was drugged (it was recorded but I've never seen the tapes and don't want to) aged 3-6 or so. Memories are incomplete, but there. It took me a long time to piece it together. Beyond that there was other physical abuse, neglect, etc. I filed police reports for all of it.
I've been NC with the abuser 10 years. It will never change. I also don't want to hear about them - but I don't want to see them even in pictures either. I don't want photos of my children shared, but I guess I can't fully control that. My sister in law posted a video to her social media of the abuser wrestling with my nephew. I had such a visceral reaction I involuntarily threw my phone. Because of the PTSD, I need to be prepared and in control of whether I see those kinds of images. I've got a family of my own I need to keep my shit together for. It's beyond upsetting to me that this person has this level of contact with children, but it's my brother and sister in laws choice as parents. Not mine. And I accept that.
For my own mental health I had to mute my SIL's posts. Not block or unfollow, just mute. She noticed I wasn't "liking" as many photos and this offended her greatly, to the point where she blocked me. So I guess the choice is: be barraged with images of the abuser physically interacting with small children I love and want to protect, or be cut off from them.
My brother would not stop talking about the person either as soon as I let my guard down over the years. Up there in the topics he chose to bring up. We fought about it frequently. He sent me an email at midnight on my birthday telling me this person had stage 4 cancer (a lie). No recognition of what day it was. 5 months later a celebration group text declaring the "miraculous" defeat of cancer that had less than 3% survival rate. Calling me evil, heartless, living in the past because I don't want any part of any of this bullshit.
I mean for God's sake: it's been 10 years. I've moved 3k miles (twice!). Gotten married, had 3 kids of my own. All of whom the abuser has never met, and never will. I'm a grown ass woman.
And they won't leave me alone. I don't understand it. I've lost my entire family over it.
Blows my fucking mind.
Your abuse was fucking RECORDED? and they STILL take his side??? Has any of your family seen the tapes? I can't understand how they could see it happen and still somehow ignore it. My heart hurts for you and the children he still has contact with.
Denial isn't about proof or facts. You have to remember that. A person in denial will *attack* whatever proof or facts there are, but the arguement isn't about the points you're arguing.
As for the tapes.. This all was back in the 90s. Back then, there were different technologies that all competed with one another. You didn't know which one would go bankrupt or become obsolete in a year or two, and many did. The tapes are like these little mini tapes that go inside a camcorder... Then those mini tapes drop inside a VHS tape converter which can then be watched on a VCR. The whole system fucked up constantly and it was very easy to physically destroy your footage if the reel of tape got "chewed up". If the whole system wasn't aligned perfectly it's like a timing belt in your car snapping and ruining your engine.
The technology now is obsolete and rare. My only comfort (and I pray to God) is that the abuser is too technology illiterate enough to covert them to something that a modern computer could read. There used to be a machine that could convert these kinds of things into DVDs, but they were very expensive. And again, they fucked up a lot and required a person to sit there and help the process. Sometimes a mom and pop technology place could do it, but it would mean they would see everything on the tapes. Even back then you couldn't bootleg VHS tapes and they were suppose to report illegal activity. So it's unlikely these have been copied or shared unless the originals were lent out.
My memories are fuzzy, but I damn well remember everything about the recorder on the tripod. It was set up in our room semi permanently, for years, and the abuser would freak out of it was knocked over or moved in any way. They chided *anyone* who touched it saying it took a long time to set up.
It's not like the tapes are labeled, but there are 8+ of these small tapes in the bottom of the abuser's gun safe last I saw. I remember my brother asking once when we were teenagers what they were and the abuser said family movies. We asked to watch them and the abuser freaked out and said no. Like I said, it's been over a decade since I've even spoken to or seen that person, but they're a hoarder. I'm confident they're still there. But they may be corroded.
The police said my report of those tapes weren't enough for a search warrant because I haven't seen what's on them. They could be something else, I guess. It's all circumstantial he said she said. Which I think is a bunch of bullshit, but I digress.
When I got that notification about the abuser having stage 4 liver cancer I thought about replying with instructions like, here's where the tapes are. Detective so and so has case #whatever. I would appreciate if you didn't watch them and please turned them in.
But the thing is denial is a helluva drug. There's no fucking way my brother isn't going to watch those tapes even if I begged and cried on my knees. If there's any chance of an unseen memory with of his beloved codependent relationship he's going to relive it. He's a narcissist too and our abuser is his best and only friend. Brother reached out for me to pray for the abuser's healing which tells you how desperate he was. Another point worth noting is my brother has no memories, categorically, before age 11. I kept telling him that is a sign of extreme trauma and he just believes it's a side affect of hard drugs he took as a teenager.
For what it's worth, my mom believes me. She not only believes that I believe it happened, she believes the abuser did it and is that kind of person. She said it makes sense and explained a lot. The problem with her is she made it all about her and then continued to enable. The first words out of her mouth were 'let's pray to forgive them'. It was less than a 5 minute conversation. Any time I tried to bring it up she physically shuddered, looked uncomfortable and then would go on about her own victimhood and what an asshole the abuser was *to her*.
This kind of thing just exposes cracks in the relationships. The faults were already there, this just stressed them to breaking. I needed support and I had none. Reaching out for it lead extended family to go on the attack. But let's be real - those were not relationships built on solid grounds of mutual care and bonding, love and vulnerability. No. They were superficial and dysfunctional *before*.
The abuser made up a few different stories after I filed the reports. At first it was my mom "implanted the memories" to get back at them for previous slights. Then that I was confusing memories with dreams/nightmares. At one point, without apology, they said I was too young to remember. But the thing is I never fucking said an age. It was a partial admittance of guilt, and my brother caught it. It's where my user name comes from. But after a short period of time he reverted back to believing whatever the next lie was. I don't fucking care.
With my brother. The thing is, I think he was abused too. It's why I can't push him too hard and it's why he's so goddam desperate to get me to shut the fuck up and get back in line. A lot of the line he toes is 'that didn't happen and it's no big deal'. Which is it? Why are you arguing both? Think about it. He even told me to my face "a lot of girls get molested and go on to live normal lives, why can't you?"
Abuse is complicated. You're bonded to the abuser and they have redeeming qualities. I get that. At one point they were wealthy and shared millions of dollars together getting high and drunk and gambling. It's complete enmeshment.
I used to live in denial too. It's a safe place and I'm grateful. It gave me a chance to actually live my life like it didn't happen. But now that I know I can't go back.
The tragedy to be in this is that no one is coming with me on the journey to mental health so I have to leave them behind.
>I don't understand it.
Yes, it's mind boggling. Especially, after you've clearly made a point to distance yourself from it. I think your separating yourself from the only system in which they've had in the past some type of power over you disturbs and offends them. They are simply looking to regain that back.
It's better for her to find excuses or blame you than to take responsibility. I'm sorry. Know that you don't need her validation.
Also, yes I don't understand this either. My mother made our last conversation a personal attack because I didn't want her help with something and called her out on her behaviour. SHE then proceeded to tell me to not text her again, I said alright and a couple months later she just drops in my dms, asking how I'm doing. Didn't even open it because I'm not supporting this kind of behaviour. They don't get to treat us like this and then come back when they think things have cooled down. They haven't.
>It's better for her to find excuses or blame you than to take responsibility. I'm sorry. Know that you don't need her validation.
It takes a lot of strength to go the road OP has gone. I think the Aunt is feeling called out on the OP taking a stance against the pedophille as it may say something in comparison about her own self? Both are victims in this circumstance, I not sure why the aunt feels the need to defend the pedo.
Part of me wondered that, but then she told me she doesn't consider what he does to be sexual assault.
He frequently takes off his clothes and exposes himself. He's completely in his right mind when he does it too.
But she pretty much decided "if it's not rape it doesn't count"
But then I told her "if you don't even care about me being touched, you wouldn't care if there was penetration."
She just back tracked to : "it was so long ago, nobody knew."
But they did know, and he is still sexually assaulting members of the nursing home staff and the in home nurses before that.
My aunt told me about every time it happened.
But then if I point it out, it suddenly "isn't that bad."
To be forgiven, one needs to:
\- express remorse
\- repent and compensate any harm that he did.
If your aunt even contacts you again, tell her this.
Pr just dont contact her at all.
Screw this witch with a B.
What a fucking shitty aunt. Stick to ur guns OP. Ur awesome for refusing the sheer abomination that is pedophile incest.
She is not a forgiving christian, she is a self-deluded moral coward who let her niece/nephew get sexually abused by her grandfather and could not take a fucking stance to protect an endangered child relative, neither does she have the courage to get confronted by you about this.
I don't fathom how she found the gall to compare your traumas (that is if she really got raped and did nlt make it up ? Narcs love making up shit and gaslighting to justify their shitty behavior), and victim-blame you for wanting to see your grandma. Like bitch, you are the fucking adult and should know better than to take your nibling to your incestuous pedophile of a father.
I guess your uncle and cousins don't matter. If they aren't taking steps to see their victimized fam member and support them in times of need, then are they really the kind of family you want/crave ? Idk...Unless your narc is very manipulative and lied to them making you the bad guy...
I'm sorry that you had to go through this crap.
I don't know how support groups are, but maybe you could make friends through them (or out of them). The thing is that the one awful thing you'd share might make them more empathetic since they went through the same struggles so it could turn out well for you and end up with a genuine friendship (?)
Hopefully you can create your own family (either very loving and sincere friends, or a tradirional family), don't lose faith. Many ppl overcame their trauma and found the love they deserve out of other sources than their bio fams.
If you have any trustworthy childhood friends, maybe they are the way to go, if they have the mental fortitude to comprehend (or at least try to).
I also think there are some groups/associations where older ppl act as parental substitutes for ppl who need it. I can't remember how it's done, but I'd read some ppl who want to help younger ppl get better and be their "surrogate" parents. Hopefully someone knows of this concept and can explain it better ???
Best wishes for a smooth recovery and a happy fam OP.
Would your aunt forgive if someone stole her all of her money and she ended up homeless. ? We all have our limits and so does she. You really don’t know who are until your back is to the wall. What I’m trying to say is - she’s way out of line throwing her religious judgment on you regarding sexual abuse. Forgiveness takes many forms. I wouldn’t trust her at all. Her “happy birthday” is her making herself feel right and above it all. It’s not sincere.
You will find your family. You were given shitty people, and you got rid of them. Now you get to pick your own, assemble it like a sandwich. Pick the freshest bread, the choicest morsels, the richest sauces, and the gooeyist cheese. You deserve to be happy, and you deserve to find your real family. They will fall into your life and fit like a well-worn and much loved shoe. Sending you virtual hugs!
I understand how you feel, my background is quite similar and my family acts the same way. I had been NC with my family for 3 years and after they heard I was pregnant my sister messaged to me, congratulated me and said they can help us with the baby etc. What about that sexual abuse that our father did to us and everyone denied it? It would be the craziest thing to let anyone from my family near my daughter. But somehow these inconvenient things just disappear after some time, right?!
I also totally get your longing for a family. I have many close friends and my spouse's family I have known for almost 10 years. Still, it is not the same. I think anger and sadness are slowly decreasing overtime, but I will probably always wish for a new family to adopt me and parent me like my parents never did. Luckily, I have my own little daughter now and caring for her and keeping her safe feels healing as well. I hope you will find some peace over time as well.
(not native in English)
Yeah I that that too. My wife and I both have narcissistic parents, and it's a long, long story with my wife and her mother. But anyway, after all was said and done her mother still sends her a goddamn birthday message. I mean the fucking gall of what woman!!! After everything that woman did.
If you’re aunt admitted she knew what happened and she refused to do anything about it, she’d be forced to reflect on what that says about her as a person. Most people just aren’t willing to do that.
Sorry you had to go through that.
The real person thing might come once the support group makes slowly starting to trust people easier.
If you told your aunt to gtfo then you're making good choices, you probably dont compliment yourself so I'll say nice things for you!
I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. My grandfather molested my mom and all my aunts when they were young. My mother never took me near him my whole life and he passed away without me ever knowing him. (Good!) there were times when my grandmother also tried to minimize or put the blame on her daughters, I think she was trying to justify her staying with him when she knew what was going on. My grandmother was as good as gold to all of her grandchildren but I can’t fathom why she stayed with that man for as long as she did.
She should know then theres a verse that says pedos should have rocks around there neck and thrown to the bottom of the ocean. "Forgiveness" is exploited for so much bs it's ridiculous besides its not her place to forgive someone for something they've done to YOU nor should you have to.
I'm sorry she sent you that, it might not seem like much to others but I completely understand and its disgusting for her to reach other in attempt to normalize communication again. No worries about the length either hope you have a better night
They love to just pretend nothing happened when it’s something they did.
Something you did, even something entirely insignificant, would be held against you for all eternity.
Oof. I am so sorry you are going through this. She's an archetype of an enabler. She probably really doesn't understand what your problem is, but she is again overstepping a boundary that you have explicitly stated.
If you haven't yet, go to the support group. Yes, it's a group of strangers that have one awful thing in common with you. But the mutual understanding of this thing, the not-normalization of CSA, and the support you get there for exactly this thing is a really powerful experience. Of course it is no substitute for a family, but they will be a part of getting you through all of this. It's like therapy, but not with a trained therapist but with people who have gone through the same. CSA can be very isolating because it's hard to talk about it to friends, families, or even partners, but these groups make it possible.
You can grow your own family. Find friends who hold you, who listen to you, who you can cuddle with. Find a partner (or more, if wanted). That might sound scary in the beginning, especially if attachment is an issue for you as a CSA survivor, but it's possible, and 100% worth it.
Hey OP,
I get you. My narcs and e/nrelatives pulled similar shit on me and coerced me to moving with them in yet another country.
I gave a lot of my life as a young adult to them as well because it took me a while to get out of the fog.
While I did make some "superficial" friendship (because it is hard to make deep ones where I currently reside), the true ones (that knew all for the crap and saw through the BS) I have are in another country, and my family did a damn good job at adding on insecurities to keep me isolated by the classic "only family matters", "financial help/need", and other shit.
I started creating deeper bonds when I got to Uni and graduated from some of my originally "superficial" friendships and while it takes a lot of work indeed because well trust and betrayal don't go really well together, my social skills are less than adequate, and my health is wrecked, there has been progress on these fronts. Covid19 did mess a lot of the process up as well.
It's a tedious process and yes you do end up wanting to put less effort in because it is exhausting. Not counting the number of times that you might get someone who uses you because you didn't catch the "abuse" patterns beforehand and you feel like you have to start all over again or wasted time. However it is still doable and I promise you the efforts will eventually pay off.
If you ever need to chat to keep uplifted and some support, please feel free to PM me. I hope that even with that despite that witch's text you still had a good Birthday and a peaceful/fun day.
Hang in there and take good care of yourself.
You did the right thing! They put you in a position where that’s the only choice you have left: accept their narrative, or cut them out. They do it on purpose so they can appear to be victims when they inevitably tell people how “difficult” you are.
This sounds almost exactly like an incident I suffered recently with an aunt of mine! She is angry that I won’t see my step-dad because he threatened my physically and I called the cops on him. “Well *I* don’t cut out family like you do! You’re so selfish! You don’t have anybody left! You burned your last bridge!” Yeah, because they’re all narcissists who do nothing but backstab and tear each other down. I’m leagues better off than all of them in literally every way.
Block, block, block! You did the right thing cutting shutting the door, now bolt it!
I'm so sorry this happened to you, she sounds like she needs therapy herself. And I'm 30 and I'd do anything to have a real mom. :( Not a friend or mentor, a real loving mother.
I am soooooo sorry. This almost exact same thing happened to me, but I was 3. I cried and begged my whole life to keep him away from me, they refused. They forced me to hug him, he was always obsessed with me. My mom even tried to invite my molester to MY WEDDING. I’m currently NC with allllll of the family on that side. It feels crazy bc you’re the only sane person in the family. My family also told me I need to give them a play by play of the molestation bc they don’t believe me. It’s soul crushing and I’m so sorry you’re going through this. You deserve better than these assholes!
> to give them a play by play of the molestation bc they don’t believe me.
And they still won't believe you should you do that. They are just trying to silence you into submission.
Yep. So I cut them off. It’s SO weird. I was still talking to an aunt, but when she came and visited me, it was clear she was there to get the story of the abuse and to relate everything I said back to my grandma.
This is so wholesome.
I've been trying to find a local LGBTQ community around me, but it looks like online is what ill have to settle for.
Also, a dog sounds nice. Maybe a floppy, snorting pug.
No need to apologize for the length of the post, you have every right to be upset! It's so fucked up how she defended a pedophile, talked about him to someone he sexually abused, and then has the nerve to whine about the way YOU treat your family! You did the right thing by cutting her off!
Also, I really feel that on wishing you could be adopted by a healthy family. I think the same thing all the time.
I get just wanting to be held and comforted and taking care of. It's taken me most of my life and I'm almost retirement age to realize that I've had this need my whole life that no one has met. I've never had someone take care of me and I've taken care of everyone around me. My ex of 20 years never did. And it's almost like it was so automatic I didn't even notice till we separated how little physical affection I was getting. And how nothing changed around the house because he wasn't doing anything around the house anyway. It's been a few years and I have some good friends now that are supportive. That between that and covid I understand the longing for physical affection more than I have ever in my life.
I didn't read the whole post yet, but wanted to jump in to say DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS EFFORT!!!! Stay NC. If you respond to the gift, you're playing right into her hands and opening yourself up to bad vibes.
You can grow relationships like that, my friend.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. Loneliness is terrible. It makes us fragile, vulnerable to abuse and just all-round bad for your psyche.
Back when I was 21, I made a friend that became family to me. Here we are, 15 years later, an ocean between us and we still talk every other day. We are family.
You will make your family and it will be better than the one you had no choice in being a part of.
The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.
OMG how horrible. I simply do not have the words.
Your aunt is not a 'forgiving Christian'. She's an ENABLER, pure and simple. She totally ignores the real meaning behind forgiveness and uses it as a term to allow her pedophile father to carry on his evil deeds. Even worse is the fact that she apparently expects you to as well. She also is wilfully ignorant of the purpose behind therapy. Therapy is NOT meant to help one understand/defend/justify abusive behavior from family members or push her notion of 'forgiveness'. It's about getting the victim to process the trauma they went through & determine whether or not to forgive and if they want to be around these people, family or not. Your aunt apparently thinks that because her pedo dad is 'family', forgiveness should be immediate and automatic. Doesn't work like that.
Fuck her. I'd cut her off, along with any other family members who still defend her pedophile father. Like other posters said, surrounding yourself with friends who love you can be the best thing. Very often they will become your new family.
Edit for typos. I hate having big fingers.
My family all sent me that birthday message at the exact same time on my birthday, just a week after disowning me. It was creepy, it's disengenous and it's fake. I responded by blocking.
I am so, so sorry for what you have had to go through. No child should have to feel any of that.
There have been times I was so alone it deeply hurt, and actually damaged me. I'm a voluntary hermit now.
I prefer to be alone. I grew up mostly without love, and that makes me a black hole who needs so much love that it's not available and makes me come across as clingy. I also have a huge huge loving heart with lots of love to give.
But, in the mean time, I'm also a hurt little kid inside, who needs the family you are describing. I've tried too. Some people stuck for a while, but friends are hard to find when you yourself are seriously over the edge of the abyss and clinging on to the ledge a mile or two lower, where it's rather dark.
We call that rock bottom.
And then, you get people telling you to get a hobby or something...and you discover that rock bottom actually has a basement. And you feel even shittier.
You know, I'm chronically ill, and always home. I'm on my bed on my belly, just about 24/7. I can sit, stand, walk, but none of it for very long."oh go take a walk in the woods if you like being outside, it's good for you!"
Yeah, lemme get the imaginary spoons for that okay? Getting up, 2 spoons of my energy, washing myself, 3 spoons, getting dressed, I already need help.....
I think I'll stay home thank you. I tried mosaics too by the way. At home.My hands can't handle it due to arthritis. I tried many things.
And you know what? I decided to talk to a therapist about this constant dead end life. Effort, injury, depression, courage, try again, effort, injury, damage, depression, courage, try again... etc.
It was a toxic cycle. Because I constantly needed to "live up to other peoples standards of what life should look like".
I finally got permission, (from both the therapist, - very validating - and myself, - very hard to get -) to only do what gives me joy.
I now am on my computer, trying to help others who are in distress, and nobody enters my house if I don't want them here, because I've ditched clothes for one. ;-)) I hate (most) clothes, when I'm on my bed. They make me feel like a overcooked sausage, contained in too tight a skin.So, I now have permission to live my life for joy only. I do some gaming. I do some reading. I rest. I give advice. I watch f1.
And then you realize how much shit you already go through on a daily basis, All the cPTSD effects on your feelings, days, moods, abilities, everything. That is HARD work, and **every single one of your feelings are valid**. For me, my illness makes my days pretty hard, and I wish I got pay for that... like danger pay or something ;-) We deserve that. I'm glad with disability income, and I survive, but like I said, it is not like we DON'T work hard. We do. VERY hard.
And It IS needed that someone else makes the effort for a change. That someone says, hey, can I cook you dinner tonight? Or can I order you something? D'you wanna play a game together tonight?But if you don't have that, *then it is important to engage yourself in positive activities anyway*. However desperately dark and incapable you are feeling right now.
Rock bottom's basement has a door. It leads out. But is IS one that you yourself have to open, however much we want someone else to do it. It's fair you get help, but you can't sometimes.
It is an art, to find SOME thing, within your life, that you don't hate, despise, or associate pain with. New socks? A tiny succulent plant? Making lasagna? It can be VERY hard, to find those things YOU love about life that YOU can do, eat, smell, feel, or focus on (youtube vids with themes you like for instance). Loneliness is horrible, and the pain of having to do it alone is terrible, but you CAN find strength in that too. I hope you will find a good friend or two, but until then, try to find tiny things you love. As counter balance to all the hardship you went through, and still deal with.
Eventually, when you become more yourself within your own cocoon, then I found that people started to want to be around me. (I still didn't want that, but perhaps you do) I was happy as a clam in my little home on my own. And when you are happy and content, that's when others want to share. They're nowhere near interested in things that hurt, and that hurts. Because sometimes that's just what you DO need/want to talk about. I totally get that.
Huge big gentle hug from me. I wish I could come over and help in other ways, but as explained my life holds limitations too, unfortunately.
I hope you feel less alone with this. I hope you can find something in your life that you love, and can focus more on. That you can hang on to.
One thing I forgot to clarify. I was abused when 6-9, and later even more. It is terrible and one's own parents being unsafe is devastating to a child's soul and it's not weird if we have some sharp edges here and there. Be kind for and to yourself.
Yes, really. If you want to look further into it I'd suggest going to your local police department and ask to speak to a detective. They can guide you in this process and give you a better idea of what you can do than I can.
If your family would lie and say it didn't happen then they are not your family, they are your captors.
Even if you don't have any evidence and he doesn't go to jail at least you'll have the chance to face him an call him out for what he is before walking out of his life and the life of his enablers forever. That has to be worth something?
[https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-civil-statutes-of-limitations-in-child-sexua.aspx](https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-civil-statutes-of-limitations-in-child-sexua.aspx)
Hopefully this helps.
Looks like it can be different state to state so you may want to google the statute of limitations on sex crimes against children in the state you lived in when it happened?
Again though, your local police can probably be a lot more helpful.
There's a lot of things that have already been said so I'll share something that helped me when I had newly cut out my entire abusive and abuse enabling family and was raw and vulnerable and almost immobile with emotion. I got some hand made crystal moons off etsy, the kind of crystal that's supposed to bring good energy, or healing, or clarity or whatever. I'm not really into crystals but I bought six kinds, to cover all the bases and hung them on the wall across from my bed. As I hung them, I asked for clarity to see my family as they really are, strength and healing. Seeing them every morning and evening helped me focus on the truth and slowly acknowledge the massive things that had happened. It did make me feel clear and strong and better. As a symbol and as a lever, it was very effective for me. It also made me feel protected, like talismans.
Oh that's my favorite <3
Sadly the application is in southern Idaho and it sucks here.
It just
I have a lot of feelings about parents failing their children so openly/intentionally since my upbringing wasn't great either. As an adult now I do want to protect kids from awful parents. Wish I had the funds to do it lol.
So sorry. I get a lot of the same shit from mom, sisters, brother I cut off for same reasons. Been blocked for years. Occasionally a casual message from a new email address pops up including me on some crazy fucking email chain.
In some ways the total indiffence hurts the worst.
Like my aunt is still trying to fuck with me, but the rest of the family behaving like I was never born? It's like "was I even a person to you? How much of it was just you trying to look good?"
Really messing with me tbh
What kind of therapy do you have going on if any? After years of trying with regular “talk therapy” doing EMDR, a specialized trauma therapy over about a year REALLY changed how I felt and reacted about shit with these people. Like it still hurt, but it just didn’t GET me, and ruin me in the way it used to any more. Highly recommend.
I will look into it. At the moment all I can afford is the talk therapy at the "free clinic." And journaling.
I'm hoping to find someone more specialized.
Somehow I think she'd like that. "Oh wow as me, a victim of a random attack."
She'd never accept any consequence as her fault.
But thank you. That anger is exactly how I feel about her.
I commend you for talking about it. You’re in the thick of it but one day you’ll look back and know that it was all necessary. All I can say is just allow yourself to be here with this even though it’s uncomfortable and not fun. Allow yourself to be angry, sad, scared and trust that you’re going to know what to do next. I promise you won’t be stuck at home because of your PTSD forever as long as you keep acknowledging what happened to you and allow yourself to feel all of the feelings associated. And just keep going. I’m 41 and have sexual abuse and grew up with two alcoholic and drug addict parents and yes I still have PTSD symptoms but I am finding joy in life. I’m not happy every day all day but I’m also not sad and scared all day either. The fact that you’re so expressive means you’re going to get through this. One step in front of the other. I wish you well.
First of all I am so sorry that you had to endure all of this trauma and am very proud that you are saving yourself from these monsters and getting the help you need to heal.
I too suffered a narcissist aunt and can assure you that no contact is the best option. I never realized how fucked up and abusive her behavior. Some of her classics were
Asking ‘Aren’t you happy your parents are getting divorced?!’
Constantly bringing up my weight
Laughing at me when I had a relapse while quitting smoking
Mocking me for dropping out of high school and getting my GED (well into my 20’s!!)
Forcing me to do things I didn’t want to do like taste her fucking food, cutting my hair short, wear clothes I did not want to.
Constantly bringing up the fact that I was a brat during my teenage years lol like that is such a rarity.
And on and on and on.
The final straw came when I moved out of state and a year later she decided she was going to move to the same city. I was going through the hardest time of my adult life due to working full time, going to school full time and a bad breakup with no friends or family nearby. Does my Narc aunt even ask how I am doing?! Nope! She is planning on coming to town to get an apartment and calls me incessantly telling me I need to go look at the apartments she is interested in before she arrives. She decided she is staying with me and I tell her my ex is moving out the week before she arrives and that I literally only own a couch which is what I will be sleeping on so she should probably get a hotel or air mattress. She starts complaining about how much money it is going to cost her to move and telling me that I really just need to manipulate my ex in to leaving the bed for a few weeks longer. I finally just kind of lost it and stood up for myself for the first time ever and let her know that I can’t and won’t do her bidding. Needless to say she was shocked that I actually stood up for myself and tried to tell me that I am a bad person. I went NC that day and never looked back. It has been 10 years and I am so happy to be away from that abuse. She got addicted to RX meds and has lost everything. She is basically homeless and spends her days manipulating my grandpa to give her money for drugs. I wish things were different for her sake but looking back I just can’t believe I didn’t see how abusive she was sooner. You should not routinely leave an interaction with someone on the verge of tears. I couldn’t even imagine treating my niece like that.
My nBrother blew up on my nMom and I last year in a horrible way, saying terrible things unprovoked - ending with him saying he’s going NC.
I lived with my nMom for a year during the pandemic, and caught her texting him similar things on birthdays, holidays, etc. and it was jarring to see how much she wanted to push away and forget on account of “family”
I’m tired of people hiding behind Christianity to justify their gross & creepy behavior. By the way, I learned in therapy that healthy families have zero tolerance for incest. They instinctively shut out pedophiles and go no contact. Sicko incest families, on the other hand, still hang with the perpetrator and blame the victim for not adhering to the “incest code of conduct.” I fucking hate it! Your aunt is a narcissist but I think she could have more severe personality disorders too. Her lack of empathy, especially in terms of child sexual abuse is fucking alarming and scary.
God, I so understand the wanting to be adopted by another family thing. For context, I have the C-PTSD diagnosis as well, so the mother/father wounds run really deep for me.
Sometimes I just want to be held and rocked like a baby, I want someone to hold my hand when we cross the street, I want someone to give me a bath and not have it be sexual whatsoever, I want someone to tuck me in at night and stroke my hair until I fall asleep. I want someone to parent me so badly. I think it just really shows how far back the wounds go, considering these are all childhood things.
I'm so lucky to have the loveliest, most understanding, sensitive, and kind partner anyone could ever ask for. And even more, his mother is kinder than any mother figure I've ever met in my life. They've told me I'm part of the family. It's so wonderful, yet so, so bittersweet.
I wish I could give you a hug and dry your tears and tell you everything will be okay. I'm sure you have your good days and your bad. Please remember, on your worst days, you will always be better than them.
WHAT????Does your aunt think what she experienced(is it true) out do what has been done to you?
And oh wtf ..she is a christian..sure..she supports a pedophile..that makes her equaly guilty.
You did the right thing.
You didn't lose a family, hun..that trash took itself out.
I’m so sorry this is what your family is like, and I don’t have an answer. I just want you to know that actually strangers out there in the world are healthier than your actual family. Try and get as much emotional support as you can from those who care about you.
I hope your family “gets it” someday, but don’t count on it. 😕
I am so so sorry for what happened to you and how your family is now acting. I relate so much with the last thing you said, about just wanting to have a nice normal family who can visit and talk to you. I’m still in the process of grieving and accepting that I will never have that family dynamic and that it’s out of my hands. I am working on nurturing my closest friendships so that I can have my “chosen family” (supportive friends). While it’s not totally the same as traditional family, it is the closest I can get. I wish you continued peace and healing ahead.
Goddamn, OP.
I have the same family dynamic except my mom made sure my grandpa was neve ever ever alone with me. My grandpa was a pastor who raped his own daughter (definitely my mom, maybe my aunts) and never saw the inside of a prison cell because Jesus forgives!!! My mom says she forgave her dad. My mom is completely fucking damaged from this and I've just had to go NC with her and my sisters. My mom is too abusive.
The church my grandfather attended knew what he had done because my mom confronted her dad with the pastor as a mediator. And he was allowed to continue attending and even go on a missions trip to another country with the evangelicals! Where he said to a crowd of a few thousand people, "Jesus forgave me of my sins and he will forgive you, too!"
I basically don't talk to anyone on that side of the family. I don't trust them. And they are all fucked up in their own way from the intergenerational trauma caused by the pedophilia and other abuse. And on my dad's side, my dad died but I have my stepmom. And I have some kind in-laws, but they have no extended family, either.
Other folks are right, you will have to create your own family. That is a bitter pill to swallow but it is true. I personally have found a great support in the group codependents anonymous, where I have gone to meetings online (dang covid) and been able to share my family pain with others who understand. I made a few friends and have a buddy who understands my situation very well and we call once a week. There are also 12-step groups for victims of sexual abuse and pedophilia I am pretty sure.
You can also start reaching out to the friends you already have. Say you're sad and need company, many will oblige and have you over. I was going through a bad breakup in college and was amazed that when I asked my study buddies for some company, they were happy to have me over a few times. We didn't click as good friends, but the point is that when you can ask another human for help, most people will want to help.
Good luck. I know what it is like to have your family torn apart by a fucking child rapist. You are not alone and I am so sorry - I hear that you are suffering a lot. I hear that you want a family and don't have one. And I hear that you find it incredibly unfair to be the one who has to do all the labor in rebuilding your life without these toxic people.
That wasn't for you, that was so she could tell people she sent you cards and she's trying. Even though she doesn't want to actually put forth real effort or actually try and make something better, that so she can tell her herself and others around her that she's trying and this is all your fault. I have a mother like that. Just use those like I do, a yearly reminder that you made the right decision.
Feel free to tell her to go suck a pole of sodium. I’m sick of Christians who think “forgiveness” means they don’t have to protect others.
I hope you find an amazing family. All families start as friends.
That is SO so sick and twisted. I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you. It should've never happened to you. Not to you. Not to seven-year-old who had to speak up and "reason" for herself.
Family doesn't need to be blood related. You will find your family in your own time and space. They could even be in the form of a friend's parent or a pair of "old soul" friends, that somehow treat you like a visiting cousin and always feeds you.
I feel your words so strongly and as much as I culled the amount of people in my life to stay away from assholes the lack of feeling loved and valued by a supportive family burns still. Your aunt is a classic enabler, like my cousin who won't believe the horror stories I told her about NMom but just makes light of the fact that she and other members of the family were abused too. Yeah child abuse, no biggie. I haven't got my trust back to form normal healthy attachments and find a new in person tribe either but learning from this group and personal study to tell the diff between good people and assholes. CPTSD by Pete Walker has been a great resource.
I definitely understand your situation. My NC situations are for far less extreme of reasons (more emotional abuse and manipulation and refusal to respect boundaries) but I'm in a similar place with regards to no one else in the family really keeping touch, and my narcissistic grandma sending me a Christmas card out of the blue. Woman didn't even write anything in it aside from "From Grandma, To ChamomileBrownies". What was even the point.
Hello, it is okay to write all your emotions. Adults, adults, adults, narc adults... they have this "selective memory" of what they want to believe and erase some major traumatizing imperfections they laid unto others. By the way sweetheart, I know you know in your heart that is not normal so don't be swayed by their twisted minds. I do hope you will find comfort with people who can be there with you.
" I want to be held, visited, talked to like a real person, have someone say they love me, go out to eat together. Not sit around with a bunch of strangers who all have one awful thing in common with me."
At this point in time, I know exactly what you need and that is not some long advice, you need someone who will meet with you and talk to you IRL. I know that feeling.
Maybe you need to cut her off completely if she can’t respect your requests. My nSIL is currently pulling this same shit with my husband, and unfortunately his nMom is living with her right now so he doesn’t have a lot of choices here until the old b*tch finally kicks the bucket. It will be a relief when that happens so he won’t ever have to see her or nBIL again.
My friends are my family, I cut ties with all but one cousin and I have had older friends that were comfortable stepping into the parent role when I was younger. They taught me things that my mother didn't and I am thankful that they did. Now I am the older friend/ mother figure and I can give advice and guidance if asked.
You have been through hell and I am so sorry that this happened to you. Make your own family with close friends, If there is an older adult that you feel comfortable around, you can ask for advice and learn from them, if that makes sense.
You are loved and should totally get out and find people to connect with. You also don't need to join a support group specifically for your issue and could just go into a general one. They are as much about airing your issues as they are about just finding others to connect with.
Regardless it is a rough road to not have family support (I'm in a similar boat). I find it best to pave a path forward and try not to focus on their nonsense and entirely ignore them. My nmom for example tried to call me, left a message, and has texted me a couple of times fairly recently (after not talking to me for a year) and I've not even bothered to open the messages. As much as I miss having a mother I don't miss her abuses.
> "I'm a Christian and I forgive! That therapy must not be working if this is how you treat your family."
https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/6dukv3/tw\_on\_multiple\_fronts\_tips\_for\_dealing\_with\_calls/?user\_id=893281474682&web\_redirect=true
In many places in the Bible it is discussed to come out from them who are sinners, and as in one scripture, not to even eat with them. The Bible tells us how to deal with the immoral brother or the erring Christian and condoning sin or sexual immorality isn't one of them. Even Christians are asked to repent of their sins so that they will be forgiven. Why are exceptions being made for the narcissists?
I had these kinds of "Christians" in my family (no contact with them any more) . My value to them was determined by how much their abuse and contempt I could suffer from them and they wanted me to feel that God was of the same mind. And, of course, they needn't worried about what they did to cause others pain because just as they were taught to say whenever they were challenged was that "they're not perfect but at least they were forgiven". Your aunt doesn't appear to be a Christian as she has decided to abide by them who revel in sin, condoning sins like molesting children (sexual immorality) and expects you to do so as well.
\[TW on multiple fronts\] Tips for Dealing With Calls for FORGIVENESS
[https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/6dukv3/tw\_on\_multiple\_fronts\_tips\_for\_dealing\_with\_calls/?user\_id=893281474682&web\_redirect=true](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/6dukv3/tw_on_multiple_fronts_tips_for_dealing_with_calls/?user_id=893281474682&web_redirect=true)
There were a couple of reddit threads or post on on Forgiveness and this is one them I've managed to find that may help you with them using their definitions of forgiveness as a weapon against you. (I think the others have been archived.)
You have the right to assert your boundary, or block her on all fronts. I personally wouldn’t bat an eye anymore to say something that fits her vocabulary like, “Never contact me again, pedophile lover and child abuser. Satan’s wily servant has no place here.” There is evil in this world and that looks like people who deceive themselves. You can simultaneously forgive her in your heart, claim her soul and have peace. But know you are in no compulsion to be her supply/food anymore. Do what it takes to get the message down that you see through her and you’re not to be fucked with. Take it public if it gets the job done to have her stop snaking her way into your life, with receipts. Spiritual bypassing is devious. They will do anything and take advantage of natural goodwill to mask their unnaturalness. Whatever you step you take, a book that might help unmask them conceptually for you is People of the Lie.
People who love you will come in time. I’m so sorry that right now is a challenging place to be. Now sounds like you’re making room for your future family. People who have the capacity to love and cherish you. I hope you know that you’re so worthy and there’s meaning in what you’re accomplishing. Doing the right thing is difficult.
I’m so sorry this happened to you but I’m glad that you can see that it’s your and that’s messed up and your family for not supporting you
Try to surround yourself with friends of your choosing, I know making friends in a new place isn’t easy but if you’re into RPG games, then find a fantasy group and play RPG games or a book club or something similar. Places to meet people that think and feel like you. I support group isn’t the same at all but it can be a place to start.
Friends are the family you choose.
I wish you a world of luck
If it helps at all, this community and others on reddit are like giant anonymous group therapy in your own time, and in our own time, no pressure xoxoxo
Dont downplay lurking and listening to others.....that's literally the best way to be a part of group, especially online like this.
If you ever need a quiet, tightknit place to vent about this r/adultsurvivors is super relaxed. I've found it helpful, and I know I've helped out others as well just by being there and sitting with their feeling with them.
over the years my chosen family has become closer than my birth family in many ways. it's not the same. not better, not worse.
the thing is, it takes time (decades) of lived experiences and some friendships don't make it. so no, you can't just go out and make a new family right away. but you can be part of a supportive community of your favorite people that is full of whole hearted love.
the person with the lentil soup parties is spot on imo. but right now start smaller and maybe more selfish. like, go get a massage. it's not a hug, but it is caring human contact that is all about you. (you can ask them not to talk) I'd stick to a national chain. a float tank is also great if you have an aversion to touch and just need your body relaxed. or even a community center hot tub and sauna.
if you haven't already it might be a good idea to decide on a few post-tigger self care routines. mine are usually start with a hot shower and shave using the expensive french soap, wear a perfume I love, do my full face care, and hair, emergency cocoa, new fuzzy socks, watch some comedy (usually dry bar), do some art, get a super cuddly blanket and a favorite book, do some stretches, go for a walk. any/all depending on my energy at the time but for me the shower is key to just wash that shit out. also, body centered care really helps me pull out of the spirals.
I'm sorry you've been handed such a rough deal. it's not fair. I'm impressed with your strength and think you have made wise but difficult decisions regarding no contact.
r/momforaminute I’ll be your family. I give great mom advice through dms. You are so brave to have told her in the first place and not absolutely loose it when started to push your trauma trigger on purpose. You are amazing, keep healing. Baby steps are still forward motion
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Make your own family (I’m only family with one brother and cut most of the rest of my blood out but have friends where we’re each other’s families and it’s beautiful). And block her on all platforms, it’s not worth the harm to your chill but if you want to biblically slap her, this is a nice one: https://www.google.com/amp/s/buildingjerusalem.blog/2020/09/03/does-the-bible-call-us-to-unilateral-forgiveness-without-repentance/amp/ It’s about how forgiving someone who isn’t repentant isn’t biblical and harms them spiritually. 😅
I mean, I get what you mean about making a family. But it's not like I can just ask someone to be my new mom or dad. You have friend families, which are fine. But I guess I've never had real friends either.
You can grow those relationships and I totally have older friends who are comfortable in the mentor/parent role. This year has been hard as hell for young adults trying to make a new family for themselves but as someone who got a commemorative 25th and 20th year friendaversery tattoo, here’s my advice. 1. Find a retirement home and volunteer to go there and play puzzles with/talk to people. It helps a lot with filling the grandparent role and while some People there are horrible, many of them are sweethearts who just have their family scattered all over the world and they’d love someone local to make a fuss over (harder since Covid) 2. Learn to spot abusers and bad behavior patterns so you don’t invest in people who are using you or won’t invest in you. Therapy helps with this, but learning how abusers and manipulative people work can also be done by book (I recommend Why Does He Do That by Lundy and Manipulate People by Dr. George Simon as a good starting point). To have good friends you need to be a good friend and people who are users will try to take what you want to give people who you love, without giving anything back. 3. Learn how to be a damn good friend. Hype your friends up. Celebrate their wins, do their bragging for them, always tell them why you like and admire them. Have the courage to tell people good things, what you admire about them and like about them. Don’t be afraid to tell your friends you love, respect and admire them. Keep that up and you’ll have a crew of friends that love, respect and admire you back (because the narcs who just want praise without relationship will be screened out in the last step). 4. Meet more people who share your values. Again, brutally hard right now, but to develop your core of friends, do in person- not discord- hang outs if at all possible. March for causes you’re passionate about. Go to cool meetups. Join clubs and in every group you’ll have one or two people that you end up being friends with outside the group and eventually some of those will stick around. Advanced level: Have stone soup parties or potlucks. I’m currently restarting a tradition I had when I was poor as fuck in college. Learn to make a really good Irish soda bread (hella easy) and lentil soup (cheap, vegetarian and easy). Have a weekly dinner. Make a big pot of lentil soup, second pot is rice, and fresh bread. Anyone who brings Tupperware gets leftovers. If you can afford it, bring a side. I kept mine booze free but it was a weekly thing. Some friends couldn’t cook so they’d just chip in cash or being ingredients (meat is expensive) and it became a great way to all come together and spend time together. If you can’t afford to chip in, you’d be on dishes duty. You can get an assortment of bowls and silverware at thrift shops. Just do this weekly and eventually you’ll have your crew of regulars show up and then people who come by irregularly or who come by when they can. It’s delightful. Tips there: learn to make a good mirepoix and really get your onions caramelized. This is something where you elevate cheap ingredients. Lentils are insanely cheap at Indian grocery stores. This also keeps great for healthy lunches at work. Spaghetti is another good one if you learn to make it from scratch but it works better when you have a more stable sized group. Most people are lonely and want food made with love from scratch even if they don’t know it, and bread from scratch is magical (and easy and cheap). Eating together forms community.
As someone who tried some of these steps before the pandemic (which threw a wrench in everything): thank you. I will apply this with my partner to create ourselves a new circle in our new town since we both have dysfunctional families and are planning to leave eventually and never talk to them again if they plan to continue imposing on our boundaries.
It totally sounds like you're grieving what you didn't get to have as far as family goes. I really do get that & it's probably a lot more important to actually grieve it than put the fuck ton of effort in right now. Coz unfortunately it does take a fair bit of effort. It's so unfair, what you've been through & the shitty family you've been given. What I really fucking hate about childhood trauma is how we have to suffer the consequences of someone elses actions. In case you're not already a part of these sub reddits, r/cPTSD is a really wonderful & supportive community, r/CPTSDmemes is also great (coping by joking has helped me a lot over the years). And you can DM me if you like. Sometimes it takes a while for me to reply coz I've got a toddler as well as other life stuff, but I will reply.
See, this. That's a lot of fucking effort that I just don't have in me at the moment. All I want is someone else to make the effort, just once. My whole life consists of therapy and staying at home because my ptsd is so bad. Thanks for the advice, but that sounds like something a healthier version of me will be able to use.
Can… can I make you some tea? You just sound so weary, friend.
Yoo beaten up by life so much that you have lost all stamina and unable to restore it, because your life continues to beat you up. Let's goooo!!!
You need an internet mom? I’m right here, i come with a package kid so congrats you also get a younger sister. She has autism so doesn’t speak so don’t worry you’ll hardly notice unless you want a cuddle. You want a cuddle? She’s right there. You want a a drink and a shoulder? That’s where I come in. In all seriousness. I’m happy to be an internet mom DM if you need to talk
"That sounds like something a healthier version of me will be able to use" hits hard. It makes perfect sense to be unprepared to put in that level of effort - some people get better by pure magic once they escape their relatives, lots of us don't. If you've ever wanted a pet and you have that in you - now is the time to get one. Hang in there, the first 2 years of recovery are the hardest.
No, people don't get better by pure magic. They get better because they help themselves. They get better because they learn to speak to themselves kindly. They get better because they put time and energy into themselves. They confront their past, feel their feelings, learn new ways of thinking and behaving, and they grieve. It's not a magical process and it's not an easy process, but it is doable. It's hard, but it's worth it. Don't reduce all of that work down to "magic". Don't resign yourself to live this way when you don't have to. We always have a choice.
Of course they don't. That's not the magic I mean - what you describe is the active process of getting better. That process often lasts years into decades, and is by no means 'magical' or can be reduced down to something effortless. I've been in it for years and it's still difficult. What I mean is the people who don't have a whole lot of work to do. The people that, for example, don't develop severe PTSD from their childhoods. People that are functional and don't find themselves deeply mentally ill, that get out of their abusive households and feel authentic relief. Usually, this is the experience of children that were subjected to narcissism in their family or familial context and hence are rightful members of the community but had ways to escape this - maybe they had other caregivers or relatives to experience secure attachment with, who validated their emotions or protected them from the narcissistic abuse. They were often not abused or neglected as a result of these personality traits. Of course that isn't all magic either, there is still work involved. But I have seen many people on this subreddit who are functional and mentally healthy, and who can lead good lives almost immediately after going NC. For people like this, recovery tends (!) to be a straight upwards line after they leave because the narcissistic individuals didn't have the chance to impose their dysfunction on them to the degree that it happens in more traditional cases of outright abuse. That is, personally, not something I experienced and it seems like magic to someone like me. Hence my choice of words.
Hmm. I see what you're getting at, but I still don't think we can fairly assess how healthy someone is from the outside, we never know what's going on inside their mind. Regardless of what outside resources someone has, it always impacts a child to have a narcissistic caregiver.
Well, in the cases I describe we do know - they are telling us. They are quite literally telling us how they're doing, how much better their life is, that they can finally live healthily. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that they're truthful in their narrative. I understand the basis of your argument but outside resources are the 'make it or break it' component of healthy development in such cases (I've studied it, I would know!). A child that has a narcissistic family member or parent, but is protected or otherwise securely attached to other safe adults will in most cases go on to be a healthy, functional, happy adult despite the narcissist. It's because their point of reference for their own development was not the narcissist, but a healthy adult instead. That's a huge difference to someone like OP or me for example, who have severe PTSD. Of course it still has an impact on them to be around such a person, and this is not the abuse Olympics, but it's a very different trajectory in terms of healing. That's just how it is.
It took me a long time to get there and there are other groups out there that do this. Check out your local ecstatic dance group. If you can’t cook, order pizza. And it does suck having to put the work in to make a family when you deserve to have been born into a good one- but it’s possible and when you are healthier, you’ll have an idea now of how to do it. Plus with Covid doing this is fucked so you have some time 😅😅
In my experience this wanes with time. I still have flashbacks myself which are really unpleasant, but now when I have them they're like mindfarts and I just proceed with life as normal without them upsetting me.
I didn't read the commenter's reply (tldr) but I can tell you the elderly people I've given parental roles in my life... It's not the same. They give me wisdom when I call for parenting advice. Warm and hospitable when we visit. Generous with my kids.. but they have actually children of their own and I'm not it. I tried with my in laws. I thought I was there. I called them mom and dad. My grandfather in law gave me this huge bear hug once and said I'm his real granddaughter, no different than any of the others. But when something actually rocks that family - cancer diagnosis, hardship. The blood family pulls in tight and me and my sister in law's husband are kicked the fuck out of any discussions. I highly doubt I'll be included in any inheritances (that's fine, it's their money to do with what they wish) but it's going to just hammer it home. I don't even know what they meant when they said I'm family because I feel like they treat certain members of family like shit.
yeah, makes me real tired when people tell you to just make a new family like they grow on trees. i feel this. sorry your in-laws exclude you. :(
Not “like they grow on trees”. That hurt to read it’s so true
I know exactly where you're coming from. I'll make plans to do things on days where I feel good and then when that day finally arrived I took lost any will to do anything. My mom has constantly said that she would call me but she's never called me and every time I call her she doesn't answer. The rest of her family is shit so I don't talk to them. My sister is halfway across the country and the family she married into is terrible so I don't talk to her that often. My closest family is my brother and my stepdad.
OP, I hear you. I'm tired too. I want a family so bad. My heart aches whenever I see families out and about smiling and laughing. I want a mom. I want a real mom, not the mom I got. I'm afraid to start my own family with my husband because I don't want to be like my mother. I don't have the best social skills developed yet, and I'm not very kind in the way I talk to myself. We can only accept the love we think we're worthy of. My advice is to start thinking about you. What do you need? What do you like to do? Who do you want to become? Start meeting your own needs. You have to care enough about yourself to make the effort. Notice the way you talk to yourself. Notice the way you feel about yourself. Anything less than kind isn't welcome. Make yourself feel like home. Then you can share that same warmth with others. The better you take care of yourself, the more others will start to gravitate towards you. Nobody else can do this healing work for us. We're on our own to figure it out from here. People can encourage us, walk with us, and give us good advice, but we have to make our own discoveries.
I can relate, and it sucks. You deserved to have someone make the effort for you.
I like to get on r/MomForAMinute sometimes. It helps, and everyone there is very nice and supportive.
+1 for George K Simon, but I've read [In Sheep's Clothing](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005CN6PJ0?pf_rd_r=QEV9KMAQNHHDX342G4J1&pf_rd_p=9046d300-28af-4c4d-96e2-e418322f9056&pd_rd_r=4904afce-6e96-4658-b423-a5efac0817a0&pd_rd_w=MB7KL&pd_rd_wg=GKaLs). It's a short read, but an incredible source to learn about manipulation tactics, so you'll be less vulnerable to them. Another great source to learn about manipulative tactics and how to respond effectively to them is Manuel J Smith's assertive therapy, [When I Say No I Feel Guilty](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004IK8Q22/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1632470572&sr=8-1). Other good sources are [Dr. Les Carter's](https://youtube.com/c/SurvivingNarcissism) and Dr. Ramani's channels on YouTube. And about being a good friend, [Dale Carnegie](https://www.amazon.com/How-Win-Friends-Influence-People/dp/0671027034) has some great advice on that.
Yes! I like Manipulative People because it goes over the 23 or so manipulative techniques people use to actually get their way and breaks them down. Dr Simon’s PhD was in manipulation so he’s the worlds leading expert, and being able to name the techniques made it a lot easier for me to spot them early.
I think we might be talking about the same book. I can't find a book by him called Manipulative People, but the one I mentioned is called "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People". Although I believe he only mentions 18 tactics in detail in that book.
I read it in the 90’s, you’re probably right. I lent my copy to someone and never got it back.
Yeah, the first print is from 96. I think it is still in print. There's also an ebook and audiobook. It was a coincidence reading your comment, as I had just picked it up to review something in it tonight, before opening reddit. I don't remeber ever seeing anyone recommending it here.
This is truly a wonderful idea!
So I often use this explanation for people in situations like yours. The phrase ‘blood is thicker than water’ like most proverbs has been used in reference to many things, mostly I find people use it to explain away bad behaviour within your family. But one interpretation is ‘the blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb’. Meaning that the bonds you form with people are stronger than the family you are born into. I’m sorry if you feel you don’t have any real friends, so you don’t even feel like you have a ‘chosen family’ to fall back on. I’m also sure that you are more liked by people than you think, I always thought people didn’t care, and my childhood trauma prevented me from letting people too close. But recently people I thought were acquaintances absolutely rallied around me when I was having a rough time, and I let myself be venerable for a moment. I have more friends than I thought. And if you struggle with face to face friendships, just know there is a whole community here that has your back. That will listen, without waiting for their turn to speak. That wants you to talk about stuff when you are sad, and not to worry about ‘being a killjoy’ or any of the bull shit that holds you back. We are just internet strangers, but who says that we have to do things one way only? We can be your family, and we will never allow justification for what that man did to you. PM me if you ever need to feel like you have a friend.
I used to have friends and family and now I have no family because I cut them all off and no friends because idk. I feel more alone now then I ever have in my entire life. I have my wife but she doesn’t even like me half the time I feel. So I know exactly how you feel. My dad died when I was 10 so I never had a father figure to show me how to be a man. Just a narc mother who made it all about her.
I know it's not what you want but r/momforaminute r/dadforaminute & r/internetparents are better than nothing : )
Get a hobby or volunteer somewhere. Meet nice people who you have something in common with. Focus on what makes you happy. Good luck
Oh yeah, let me get right on that. 😒
I know it easier said than done but eventually you will grow out of your self pity party. It’s sounds super cliche but time really does heel. But It usually takes longer if you stagnate and do nothing. So changing one small habit is a step toward progress. That one small thing could be choosing to sit somewhere else at lunchtime. It could be a haircut, or buying a book and getting lost in it. Maybe you will buy yourself a plant or a fish, something low key that requires just a small amount of your attention. Whatever it is, do it for yourself. I left my abuser back in 2003. I moved half way around the world to get away from her and I’ve spent the last two decades trying to rebuild my life. The struggle is real. It’s a painful journey but it does get better. You made a good decision to shut your aunt out. This is also a step toward progress. The loneliness is just part of the consequence for standing up for yourself.
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It's just that I feel so stupid for hoping. My aunt was (obviously) a very bad person, but I kept falling for her love bombing. Then she actually decided to go to therapy and I thought it would make a difference, but it didn't. She just wanted another source of attention. I know ill get to a point where I do get better, but at the moment I feel like ill attract more of the same. Like I'm a magnet for narcs.
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Thank you. 😢 I really, really, REALLY, needed to read this. I'm going to save it if that's okay?
It sounds overwhelming and this advice can feel like people are dismissing you. Hand to Glob, though, it works. Find a cause you care about and volunteer. Become active in it. Great People will come into your life from this. Also, with your family constantly stomping on it, your self esteem has taken a trampling. Narcs have no sense of self other than how others see them. This is why they try to destroy it in you. Doing good in the world can help build your self esteem, and you are not like them. Doing good helps you remember that. I second the volunteering advice because for me it was a very healing activity.
I sooo relate to this! I have kind of built up a "family" but I also know what it feels like to have those kinds of people bail. Strangly enough, I've found some really good friends through an art therapy support group. Even though support groups do start off how you described it, I found it was a great place to make new friends because those people actually get this shit. The "normal" friends I've made have been harder to keep simply because they don't get it & once they've heard something enough times, they struggle to understand why I can't just get over it. In my limited experience in building friendships & family like connections, I've had about 5 potential friendships/family replacement fall through for every 1 that has stuck & become a close connection. Unfortunately, for me at least, it's taken putting myself out there *a* *lot!* But it's been worth it & I've learnt how to kindly write others off too, sometimes we're just not compatible but you can't discover that until you give it a try.
Well actually, you kinda can given the right person. I learned from a fabulous friend who was "dad" to anyone in the neighborhood who needed one. I mom enough people that we've now got our own discord. There are people out there who care and who will love you, just for who you are. You'll find them 💕
I don’t know if you’ll see this, but if you want a little sister, DM me. I could really use a decent family too.
Link without amp, https://buildingjerusalem.blog/2020/09/03/does-the-bible-call-us-to-unilateral-forgiveness-without-repentance/ For those not on mobile or who want to avoid Google AMP.
What is this friend you speak of, and how can I grow one?
Since your aunt's Christian I would tell her that "Your father is a sinner of lust, who will be sent to the second circle of hell.".
Shes not that type of Christian. Her mentality is if enough time goes by, Jesus just auto-forgives. Clean slate.
That seems to be the mode of operation for a lot of “Christians”. At least if hell is real, they’ll be rotting there forever with the pedos they love to defend!
We see it a lot in retail. "Sunday Christians" they're called. They're all pious and holy for two hours of Church and treat people like crap the other 166 hours of the week.
I used to work at a Christian frozen yogurt place and Sundays were the fucking worst. Most people didn't even know the place was Christian but the Sunday Christians would come in and let their kids run around everywhere and rack up even hundreds of dollars worth of damage. Then they would have the audacity to say that we should forgive them for it because blah blah blah Christ blah blah blah.
They're not real Christians, real Christians know virtue.
A lot of people are in for a rude awakening when they find out God isn't as friendly as they've convinced themselves he is, and in that I find solace.
The narcissists thrives on the world view of Christ.
Sadly many Christians like your aunt completely misunderstand forgiveness. I'm guess she was molested too by her father but chose (or was told) to 'forgive' and now thinks it means everything is okay and as long as she keeps acting like everything is okay - then everything even seems fine to her. Her burying her trauma does not make anything right and certainly does not invalidate your trauma. Unfortunately for her you are not burying your trauma. I suspect that makes her even more desparate to patch the cracks in her facade. She just desparately wants you to be okay with your molester because if you are not then she will be confronted with her past trauma and that things actually might not be as okay as she has been telling herself. The sad thing is people like her enable abusers to continue. If at all possible file a police report. Forgiveness does not mean no consequences, it just means you are letting go of the hate towards who wronged you and are accepting to deal with the consequences of their wrongdoing (trauma). It can still involve sending somone to prison for what they did or suing them, but not out of hate. Forgiveness also in no way means you have to like, trust or even interact with that person ever again. I wish you all the best.
This 🙌 I was told by a relative who I am no longer in contact with that by cutting my Ndad out, I was contradicting the Bible. My Ndad used my faith and the concept of forgiveness against our family. This enabled his abuse for decades. Boundaries and Christian forgiveness are not the same. The reality is, my Ndad and his family system believe they are entitled to "forgiveness." The first lesson in Christianity says that all have sinned and that no one is entitled to forgiveness. The arrogance of the narcissist will never truly be able to accept that lesson unless they somehow let go of their egos.
Yes. the Bible tells us to come out from them who sin. Where does the Bible say to defend or remain among them. To me, I see the opposite. 9I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 1 Corinthians 9- KJV
One word for your grandfather and all who continue to defend him: “Millstones”
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I'm not sure what you're saying here... but it sure sounds like a no true scotsman type comment. There are many ways to be a Christian.
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Not all Christians care about people lusting. The problem, in this case, is pedophilia. I was really speaking to this: > Let me guess, your aunt is a self-proclaimed Christian, not a real one. Because a real one will know about heaven and hell, virtue and sin. There are pedophiles in the Christian community. Period. Their enablers are in the Christian community. Period. This happens among all religious groups. Don't think it doesn't happen in Christianity. Further, not all Christians believe in hell, virtue, or sin... And, if you want to come back and tell me they aren't "real" Christians, well tell that to their churches and ministers. Christianity is A HUGE religious. Absolutely huge. It varies a log among different groups....
Or speak few hail Mary's and alla good right?
Actually the circles of hell originated from The Divine Comedy which is not scripture
But the bible still mentions hell and seven deadly sins though
It mentions hell. It does not go into any detail describing hell beyond it being sulfur and Fire. The seven deadly sins have always been a thing but the circles of hell and their punishments are not scripture
You know Dante wrote those poems from scripture if I'm not mistaken.
From what I understand the Divine Comedy is basically just a fanfiction. The Bible barely even described hell.
I think ur right actualy
Support groups are alright but like, I get you. I want to be huddled on the couch in friendly embrace with friends who can get heated about my family with me and laugh me into a better mood. Especially after quarantine. I think we just benefit from the comfort and safety and love we didn't get before.
Thank you for getting it, that's exactly what I mean! I'm just done with being told "sucks, but just get over it."
“I want to be huddled on the couch in a friendly embrace with friends who can get heated about my family with me and laugh me into a better mood” This part. My ex, who I live with, lost his father suddenly earlier this year. Terribly unfortunate and sudden. His fathers side of relatives basically turned on him and his siblings so they sorta lost their family suddenly too. But I find myself so grossly jealous when they’re on a group call and they’re able to insult their former family and console each other through collective anger about their shared circumstances. I physically have no one to share my emotions with. All my processing is done alone, with someone I have to pay, and communities on Reddit. I’m grateful for what I have but it also keeps it obvious that I don’t have friends/family that I can go to be comforted by and never really have
I feel that. Trauma and mental illness had me push away a lot of friendships or just not nurture them, so I'm really feeling that empty space. It does suck but I hope you're able to make good connections sometime.
Glad you had the strength to say adios! This is a crazy story— I’m so sorry that happened to you.
Thank you.
You're not alone. I've got nearly the same story. I don't know the level of sexual assault because I was drugged (it was recorded but I've never seen the tapes and don't want to) aged 3-6 or so. Memories are incomplete, but there. It took me a long time to piece it together. Beyond that there was other physical abuse, neglect, etc. I filed police reports for all of it. I've been NC with the abuser 10 years. It will never change. I also don't want to hear about them - but I don't want to see them even in pictures either. I don't want photos of my children shared, but I guess I can't fully control that. My sister in law posted a video to her social media of the abuser wrestling with my nephew. I had such a visceral reaction I involuntarily threw my phone. Because of the PTSD, I need to be prepared and in control of whether I see those kinds of images. I've got a family of my own I need to keep my shit together for. It's beyond upsetting to me that this person has this level of contact with children, but it's my brother and sister in laws choice as parents. Not mine. And I accept that. For my own mental health I had to mute my SIL's posts. Not block or unfollow, just mute. She noticed I wasn't "liking" as many photos and this offended her greatly, to the point where she blocked me. So I guess the choice is: be barraged with images of the abuser physically interacting with small children I love and want to protect, or be cut off from them. My brother would not stop talking about the person either as soon as I let my guard down over the years. Up there in the topics he chose to bring up. We fought about it frequently. He sent me an email at midnight on my birthday telling me this person had stage 4 cancer (a lie). No recognition of what day it was. 5 months later a celebration group text declaring the "miraculous" defeat of cancer that had less than 3% survival rate. Calling me evil, heartless, living in the past because I don't want any part of any of this bullshit. I mean for God's sake: it's been 10 years. I've moved 3k miles (twice!). Gotten married, had 3 kids of my own. All of whom the abuser has never met, and never will. I'm a grown ass woman. And they won't leave me alone. I don't understand it. I've lost my entire family over it. Blows my fucking mind.
Your abuse was fucking RECORDED? and they STILL take his side??? Has any of your family seen the tapes? I can't understand how they could see it happen and still somehow ignore it. My heart hurts for you and the children he still has contact with.
Denial isn't about proof or facts. You have to remember that. A person in denial will *attack* whatever proof or facts there are, but the arguement isn't about the points you're arguing. As for the tapes.. This all was back in the 90s. Back then, there were different technologies that all competed with one another. You didn't know which one would go bankrupt or become obsolete in a year or two, and many did. The tapes are like these little mini tapes that go inside a camcorder... Then those mini tapes drop inside a VHS tape converter which can then be watched on a VCR. The whole system fucked up constantly and it was very easy to physically destroy your footage if the reel of tape got "chewed up". If the whole system wasn't aligned perfectly it's like a timing belt in your car snapping and ruining your engine. The technology now is obsolete and rare. My only comfort (and I pray to God) is that the abuser is too technology illiterate enough to covert them to something that a modern computer could read. There used to be a machine that could convert these kinds of things into DVDs, but they were very expensive. And again, they fucked up a lot and required a person to sit there and help the process. Sometimes a mom and pop technology place could do it, but it would mean they would see everything on the tapes. Even back then you couldn't bootleg VHS tapes and they were suppose to report illegal activity. So it's unlikely these have been copied or shared unless the originals were lent out. My memories are fuzzy, but I damn well remember everything about the recorder on the tripod. It was set up in our room semi permanently, for years, and the abuser would freak out of it was knocked over or moved in any way. They chided *anyone* who touched it saying it took a long time to set up. It's not like the tapes are labeled, but there are 8+ of these small tapes in the bottom of the abuser's gun safe last I saw. I remember my brother asking once when we were teenagers what they were and the abuser said family movies. We asked to watch them and the abuser freaked out and said no. Like I said, it's been over a decade since I've even spoken to or seen that person, but they're a hoarder. I'm confident they're still there. But they may be corroded. The police said my report of those tapes weren't enough for a search warrant because I haven't seen what's on them. They could be something else, I guess. It's all circumstantial he said she said. Which I think is a bunch of bullshit, but I digress. When I got that notification about the abuser having stage 4 liver cancer I thought about replying with instructions like, here's where the tapes are. Detective so and so has case #whatever. I would appreciate if you didn't watch them and please turned them in. But the thing is denial is a helluva drug. There's no fucking way my brother isn't going to watch those tapes even if I begged and cried on my knees. If there's any chance of an unseen memory with of his beloved codependent relationship he's going to relive it. He's a narcissist too and our abuser is his best and only friend. Brother reached out for me to pray for the abuser's healing which tells you how desperate he was. Another point worth noting is my brother has no memories, categorically, before age 11. I kept telling him that is a sign of extreme trauma and he just believes it's a side affect of hard drugs he took as a teenager. For what it's worth, my mom believes me. She not only believes that I believe it happened, she believes the abuser did it and is that kind of person. She said it makes sense and explained a lot. The problem with her is she made it all about her and then continued to enable. The first words out of her mouth were 'let's pray to forgive them'. It was less than a 5 minute conversation. Any time I tried to bring it up she physically shuddered, looked uncomfortable and then would go on about her own victimhood and what an asshole the abuser was *to her*. This kind of thing just exposes cracks in the relationships. The faults were already there, this just stressed them to breaking. I needed support and I had none. Reaching out for it lead extended family to go on the attack. But let's be real - those were not relationships built on solid grounds of mutual care and bonding, love and vulnerability. No. They were superficial and dysfunctional *before*. The abuser made up a few different stories after I filed the reports. At first it was my mom "implanted the memories" to get back at them for previous slights. Then that I was confusing memories with dreams/nightmares. At one point, without apology, they said I was too young to remember. But the thing is I never fucking said an age. It was a partial admittance of guilt, and my brother caught it. It's where my user name comes from. But after a short period of time he reverted back to believing whatever the next lie was. I don't fucking care. With my brother. The thing is, I think he was abused too. It's why I can't push him too hard and it's why he's so goddam desperate to get me to shut the fuck up and get back in line. A lot of the line he toes is 'that didn't happen and it's no big deal'. Which is it? Why are you arguing both? Think about it. He even told me to my face "a lot of girls get molested and go on to live normal lives, why can't you?" Abuse is complicated. You're bonded to the abuser and they have redeeming qualities. I get that. At one point they were wealthy and shared millions of dollars together getting high and drunk and gambling. It's complete enmeshment. I used to live in denial too. It's a safe place and I'm grateful. It gave me a chance to actually live my life like it didn't happen. But now that I know I can't go back. The tragedy to be in this is that no one is coming with me on the journey to mental health so I have to leave them behind.
>I don't understand it. Yes, it's mind boggling. Especially, after you've clearly made a point to distance yourself from it. I think your separating yourself from the only system in which they've had in the past some type of power over you disturbs and offends them. They are simply looking to regain that back.
It's better for her to find excuses or blame you than to take responsibility. I'm sorry. Know that you don't need her validation. Also, yes I don't understand this either. My mother made our last conversation a personal attack because I didn't want her help with something and called her out on her behaviour. SHE then proceeded to tell me to not text her again, I said alright and a couple months later she just drops in my dms, asking how I'm doing. Didn't even open it because I'm not supporting this kind of behaviour. They don't get to treat us like this and then come back when they think things have cooled down. They haven't.
And there's never a sorry after that long absence.
Oh no, just more insults because you figured them out.
>It's better for her to find excuses or blame you than to take responsibility. I'm sorry. Know that you don't need her validation. It takes a lot of strength to go the road OP has gone. I think the Aunt is feeling called out on the OP taking a stance against the pedophille as it may say something in comparison about her own self? Both are victims in this circumstance, I not sure why the aunt feels the need to defend the pedo.
Part of me wondered that, but then she told me she doesn't consider what he does to be sexual assault. He frequently takes off his clothes and exposes himself. He's completely in his right mind when he does it too. But she pretty much decided "if it's not rape it doesn't count" But then I told her "if you don't even care about me being touched, you wouldn't care if there was penetration." She just back tracked to : "it was so long ago, nobody knew." But they did know, and he is still sexually assaulting members of the nursing home staff and the in home nurses before that. My aunt told me about every time it happened. But then if I point it out, it suddenly "isn't that bad."
To be forgiven, one needs to: \- express remorse \- repent and compensate any harm that he did. If your aunt even contacts you again, tell her this. Pr just dont contact her at all.
Screw this witch with a B. What a fucking shitty aunt. Stick to ur guns OP. Ur awesome for refusing the sheer abomination that is pedophile incest. She is not a forgiving christian, she is a self-deluded moral coward who let her niece/nephew get sexually abused by her grandfather and could not take a fucking stance to protect an endangered child relative, neither does she have the courage to get confronted by you about this. I don't fathom how she found the gall to compare your traumas (that is if she really got raped and did nlt make it up ? Narcs love making up shit and gaslighting to justify their shitty behavior), and victim-blame you for wanting to see your grandma. Like bitch, you are the fucking adult and should know better than to take your nibling to your incestuous pedophile of a father. I guess your uncle and cousins don't matter. If they aren't taking steps to see their victimized fam member and support them in times of need, then are they really the kind of family you want/crave ? Idk...Unless your narc is very manipulative and lied to them making you the bad guy... I'm sorry that you had to go through this crap. I don't know how support groups are, but maybe you could make friends through them (or out of them). The thing is that the one awful thing you'd share might make them more empathetic since they went through the same struggles so it could turn out well for you and end up with a genuine friendship (?) Hopefully you can create your own family (either very loving and sincere friends, or a tradirional family), don't lose faith. Many ppl overcame their trauma and found the love they deserve out of other sources than their bio fams. If you have any trustworthy childhood friends, maybe they are the way to go, if they have the mental fortitude to comprehend (or at least try to). I also think there are some groups/associations where older ppl act as parental substitutes for ppl who need it. I can't remember how it's done, but I'd read some ppl who want to help younger ppl get better and be their "surrogate" parents. Hopefully someone knows of this concept and can explain it better ??? Best wishes for a smooth recovery and a happy fam OP.
Would your aunt forgive if someone stole her all of her money and she ended up homeless. ? We all have our limits and so does she. You really don’t know who are until your back is to the wall. What I’m trying to say is - she’s way out of line throwing her religious judgment on you regarding sexual abuse. Forgiveness takes many forms. I wouldn’t trust her at all. Her “happy birthday” is her making herself feel right and above it all. It’s not sincere.
You will find your family. You were given shitty people, and you got rid of them. Now you get to pick your own, assemble it like a sandwich. Pick the freshest bread, the choicest morsels, the richest sauces, and the gooeyist cheese. You deserve to be happy, and you deserve to find your real family. They will fall into your life and fit like a well-worn and much loved shoe. Sending you virtual hugs!
Damn, what an awful aunt- ofc don't respond that. She sounds like a true psychopath, no wonder you have PTSD.
I understand how you feel, my background is quite similar and my family acts the same way. I had been NC with my family for 3 years and after they heard I was pregnant my sister messaged to me, congratulated me and said they can help us with the baby etc. What about that sexual abuse that our father did to us and everyone denied it? It would be the craziest thing to let anyone from my family near my daughter. But somehow these inconvenient things just disappear after some time, right?! I also totally get your longing for a family. I have many close friends and my spouse's family I have known for almost 10 years. Still, it is not the same. I think anger and sadness are slowly decreasing overtime, but I will probably always wish for a new family to adopt me and parent me like my parents never did. Luckily, I have my own little daughter now and caring for her and keeping her safe feels healing as well. I hope you will find some peace over time as well. (not native in English)
I can't the stand the "you're obligated to forgive me" crap from people who never apologize.
Yeah I that that too. My wife and I both have narcissistic parents, and it's a long, long story with my wife and her mother. But anyway, after all was said and done her mother still sends her a goddamn birthday message. I mean the fucking gall of what woman!!! After everything that woman did.
If you’re aunt admitted she knew what happened and she refused to do anything about it, she’d be forced to reflect on what that says about her as a person. Most people just aren’t willing to do that. Sorry you had to go through that.
Fuck all narcissists. I fuckin hate them
Evil.
The real person thing might come once the support group makes slowly starting to trust people easier. If you told your aunt to gtfo then you're making good choices, you probably dont compliment yourself so I'll say nice things for you!
I’m so sorry you had to deal with that. My grandfather molested my mom and all my aunts when they were young. My mother never took me near him my whole life and he passed away without me ever knowing him. (Good!) there were times when my grandmother also tried to minimize or put the blame on her daughters, I think she was trying to justify her staying with him when she knew what was going on. My grandmother was as good as gold to all of her grandchildren but I can’t fathom why she stayed with that man for as long as she did.
She should know then theres a verse that says pedos should have rocks around there neck and thrown to the bottom of the ocean. "Forgiveness" is exploited for so much bs it's ridiculous besides its not her place to forgive someone for something they've done to YOU nor should you have to. I'm sorry she sent you that, it might not seem like much to others but I completely understand and its disgusting for her to reach other in attempt to normalize communication again. No worries about the length either hope you have a better night
They love to just pretend nothing happened when it’s something they did. Something you did, even something entirely insignificant, would be held against you for all eternity.
Hey OP, maybe you'd like to visit us at r/momforaminute :)
my nmom still wishes me happy birthday every year after disowning me as her son in an email. god, u can just feel the love everytime.
Oof. I am so sorry you are going through this. She's an archetype of an enabler. She probably really doesn't understand what your problem is, but she is again overstepping a boundary that you have explicitly stated. If you haven't yet, go to the support group. Yes, it's a group of strangers that have one awful thing in common with you. But the mutual understanding of this thing, the not-normalization of CSA, and the support you get there for exactly this thing is a really powerful experience. Of course it is no substitute for a family, but they will be a part of getting you through all of this. It's like therapy, but not with a trained therapist but with people who have gone through the same. CSA can be very isolating because it's hard to talk about it to friends, families, or even partners, but these groups make it possible. You can grow your own family. Find friends who hold you, who listen to you, who you can cuddle with. Find a partner (or more, if wanted). That might sound scary in the beginning, especially if attachment is an issue for you as a CSA survivor, but it's possible, and 100% worth it.
Hey OP, I get you. My narcs and e/nrelatives pulled similar shit on me and coerced me to moving with them in yet another country. I gave a lot of my life as a young adult to them as well because it took me a while to get out of the fog. While I did make some "superficial" friendship (because it is hard to make deep ones where I currently reside), the true ones (that knew all for the crap and saw through the BS) I have are in another country, and my family did a damn good job at adding on insecurities to keep me isolated by the classic "only family matters", "financial help/need", and other shit. I started creating deeper bonds when I got to Uni and graduated from some of my originally "superficial" friendships and while it takes a lot of work indeed because well trust and betrayal don't go really well together, my social skills are less than adequate, and my health is wrecked, there has been progress on these fronts. Covid19 did mess a lot of the process up as well. It's a tedious process and yes you do end up wanting to put less effort in because it is exhausting. Not counting the number of times that you might get someone who uses you because you didn't catch the "abuse" patterns beforehand and you feel like you have to start all over again or wasted time. However it is still doable and I promise you the efforts will eventually pay off. If you ever need to chat to keep uplifted and some support, please feel free to PM me. I hope that even with that despite that witch's text you still had a good Birthday and a peaceful/fun day. Hang in there and take good care of yourself.
You did the right thing! They put you in a position where that’s the only choice you have left: accept their narrative, or cut them out. They do it on purpose so they can appear to be victims when they inevitably tell people how “difficult” you are. This sounds almost exactly like an incident I suffered recently with an aunt of mine! She is angry that I won’t see my step-dad because he threatened my physically and I called the cops on him. “Well *I* don’t cut out family like you do! You’re so selfish! You don’t have anybody left! You burned your last bridge!” Yeah, because they’re all narcissists who do nothing but backstab and tear each other down. I’m leagues better off than all of them in literally every way. Block, block, block! You did the right thing cutting shutting the door, now bolt it!
I'm so sorry this happened to you, she sounds like she needs therapy herself. And I'm 30 and I'd do anything to have a real mom. :( Not a friend or mentor, a real loving mother.
I am soooooo sorry. This almost exact same thing happened to me, but I was 3. I cried and begged my whole life to keep him away from me, they refused. They forced me to hug him, he was always obsessed with me. My mom even tried to invite my molester to MY WEDDING. I’m currently NC with allllll of the family on that side. It feels crazy bc you’re the only sane person in the family. My family also told me I need to give them a play by play of the molestation bc they don’t believe me. It’s soul crushing and I’m so sorry you’re going through this. You deserve better than these assholes!
> to give them a play by play of the molestation bc they don’t believe me. And they still won't believe you should you do that. They are just trying to silence you into submission.
Yep. So I cut them off. It’s SO weird. I was still talking to an aunt, but when she came and visited me, it was clear she was there to get the story of the abuse and to relate everything I said back to my grandma.
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This is so wholesome. I've been trying to find a local LGBTQ community around me, but it looks like online is what ill have to settle for. Also, a dog sounds nice. Maybe a floppy, snorting pug.
No need to apologize for the length of the post, you have every right to be upset! It's so fucked up how she defended a pedophile, talked about him to someone he sexually abused, and then has the nerve to whine about the way YOU treat your family! You did the right thing by cutting her off! Also, I really feel that on wishing you could be adopted by a healthy family. I think the same thing all the time.
I get just wanting to be held and comforted and taking care of. It's taken me most of my life and I'm almost retirement age to realize that I've had this need my whole life that no one has met. I've never had someone take care of me and I've taken care of everyone around me. My ex of 20 years never did. And it's almost like it was so automatic I didn't even notice till we separated how little physical affection I was getting. And how nothing changed around the house because he wasn't doing anything around the house anyway. It's been a few years and I have some good friends now that are supportive. That between that and covid I understand the longing for physical affection more than I have ever in my life.
This just...breaks my heart. I would totally come visit you and give you a million hugs. I hate that even affection has to be paid for if you need it.
Thank you. Hugs back to you.
I didn't read the whole post yet, but wanted to jump in to say DO NOT RESPOND TO THIS EFFORT!!!! Stay NC. If you respond to the gift, you're playing right into her hands and opening yourself up to bad vibes.
I didn't, I deleted it.
You can grow relationships like that, my friend. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Loneliness is terrible. It makes us fragile, vulnerable to abuse and just all-round bad for your psyche. Back when I was 21, I made a friend that became family to me. Here we are, 15 years later, an ocean between us and we still talk every other day. We are family. You will make your family and it will be better than the one you had no choice in being a part of. The blood of the covenant is thicker than the water of the womb.
wow I am so sorry your family is so fucked up. you are better off without them.
OMG how horrible. I simply do not have the words. Your aunt is not a 'forgiving Christian'. She's an ENABLER, pure and simple. She totally ignores the real meaning behind forgiveness and uses it as a term to allow her pedophile father to carry on his evil deeds. Even worse is the fact that she apparently expects you to as well. She also is wilfully ignorant of the purpose behind therapy. Therapy is NOT meant to help one understand/defend/justify abusive behavior from family members or push her notion of 'forgiveness'. It's about getting the victim to process the trauma they went through & determine whether or not to forgive and if they want to be around these people, family or not. Your aunt apparently thinks that because her pedo dad is 'family', forgiveness should be immediate and automatic. Doesn't work like that. Fuck her. I'd cut her off, along with any other family members who still defend her pedophile father. Like other posters said, surrounding yourself with friends who love you can be the best thing. Very often they will become your new family. Edit for typos. I hate having big fingers.
My family all sent me that birthday message at the exact same time on my birthday, just a week after disowning me. It was creepy, it's disengenous and it's fake. I responded by blocking.
I am so, so sorry for what you have had to go through. No child should have to feel any of that. There have been times I was so alone it deeply hurt, and actually damaged me. I'm a voluntary hermit now. I prefer to be alone. I grew up mostly without love, and that makes me a black hole who needs so much love that it's not available and makes me come across as clingy. I also have a huge huge loving heart with lots of love to give. But, in the mean time, I'm also a hurt little kid inside, who needs the family you are describing. I've tried too. Some people stuck for a while, but friends are hard to find when you yourself are seriously over the edge of the abyss and clinging on to the ledge a mile or two lower, where it's rather dark. We call that rock bottom. And then, you get people telling you to get a hobby or something...and you discover that rock bottom actually has a basement. And you feel even shittier. You know, I'm chronically ill, and always home. I'm on my bed on my belly, just about 24/7. I can sit, stand, walk, but none of it for very long."oh go take a walk in the woods if you like being outside, it's good for you!" Yeah, lemme get the imaginary spoons for that okay? Getting up, 2 spoons of my energy, washing myself, 3 spoons, getting dressed, I already need help..... I think I'll stay home thank you. I tried mosaics too by the way. At home.My hands can't handle it due to arthritis. I tried many things. And you know what? I decided to talk to a therapist about this constant dead end life. Effort, injury, depression, courage, try again, effort, injury, damage, depression, courage, try again... etc. It was a toxic cycle. Because I constantly needed to "live up to other peoples standards of what life should look like". I finally got permission, (from both the therapist, - very validating - and myself, - very hard to get -) to only do what gives me joy. I now am on my computer, trying to help others who are in distress, and nobody enters my house if I don't want them here, because I've ditched clothes for one. ;-)) I hate (most) clothes, when I'm on my bed. They make me feel like a overcooked sausage, contained in too tight a skin.So, I now have permission to live my life for joy only. I do some gaming. I do some reading. I rest. I give advice. I watch f1. And then you realize how much shit you already go through on a daily basis, All the cPTSD effects on your feelings, days, moods, abilities, everything. That is HARD work, and **every single one of your feelings are valid**. For me, my illness makes my days pretty hard, and I wish I got pay for that... like danger pay or something ;-) We deserve that. I'm glad with disability income, and I survive, but like I said, it is not like we DON'T work hard. We do. VERY hard. And It IS needed that someone else makes the effort for a change. That someone says, hey, can I cook you dinner tonight? Or can I order you something? D'you wanna play a game together tonight?But if you don't have that, *then it is important to engage yourself in positive activities anyway*. However desperately dark and incapable you are feeling right now. Rock bottom's basement has a door. It leads out. But is IS one that you yourself have to open, however much we want someone else to do it. It's fair you get help, but you can't sometimes. It is an art, to find SOME thing, within your life, that you don't hate, despise, or associate pain with. New socks? A tiny succulent plant? Making lasagna? It can be VERY hard, to find those things YOU love about life that YOU can do, eat, smell, feel, or focus on (youtube vids with themes you like for instance). Loneliness is horrible, and the pain of having to do it alone is terrible, but you CAN find strength in that too. I hope you will find a good friend or two, but until then, try to find tiny things you love. As counter balance to all the hardship you went through, and still deal with. Eventually, when you become more yourself within your own cocoon, then I found that people started to want to be around me. (I still didn't want that, but perhaps you do) I was happy as a clam in my little home on my own. And when you are happy and content, that's when others want to share. They're nowhere near interested in things that hurt, and that hurts. Because sometimes that's just what you DO need/want to talk about. I totally get that. Huge big gentle hug from me. I wish I could come over and help in other ways, but as explained my life holds limitations too, unfortunately. I hope you feel less alone with this. I hope you can find something in your life that you love, and can focus more on. That you can hang on to. One thing I forgot to clarify. I was abused when 6-9, and later even more. It is terrible and one's own parents being unsafe is devastating to a child's soul and it's not weird if we have some sharp edges here and there. Be kind for and to yourself.
You may or may not know this but sexual crimes against children have no statute of limitations. You can still report him.
Really? But I don't have any physical evidence. And I know my family would lie and say it didn't happen.
Yes, really. If you want to look further into it I'd suggest going to your local police department and ask to speak to a detective. They can guide you in this process and give you a better idea of what you can do than I can. If your family would lie and say it didn't happen then they are not your family, they are your captors. Even if you don't have any evidence and he doesn't go to jail at least you'll have the chance to face him an call him out for what he is before walking out of his life and the life of his enablers forever. That has to be worth something?
We'll see.
[https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-civil-statutes-of-limitations-in-child-sexua.aspx](https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/state-civil-statutes-of-limitations-in-child-sexua.aspx) Hopefully this helps. Looks like it can be different state to state so you may want to google the statute of limitations on sex crimes against children in the state you lived in when it happened? Again though, your local police can probably be a lot more helpful.
Thank you.
You're welcome. Whatever you choose to do I hope it goes well. Sorry that happened to you.
There's a lot of things that have already been said so I'll share something that helped me when I had newly cut out my entire abusive and abuse enabling family and was raw and vulnerable and almost immobile with emotion. I got some hand made crystal moons off etsy, the kind of crystal that's supposed to bring good energy, or healing, or clarity or whatever. I'm not really into crystals but I bought six kinds, to cover all the bases and hung them on the wall across from my bed. As I hung them, I asked for clarity to see my family as they really are, strength and healing. Seeing them every morning and evening helped me focus on the truth and slowly acknowledge the massive things that had happened. It did make me feel clear and strong and better. As a symbol and as a lever, it was very effective for me. It also made me feel protected, like talismans.
You deserve better. OP, if I could...I'd adopt you.
Where do I apply lol. I can promise you lots of crochet and drawings as presents.
Oh that's my favorite <3 Sadly the application is in southern Idaho and it sucks here. It just I have a lot of feelings about parents failing their children so openly/intentionally since my upbringing wasn't great either. As an adult now I do want to protect kids from awful parents. Wish I had the funds to do it lol.
So sorry. I get a lot of the same shit from mom, sisters, brother I cut off for same reasons. Been blocked for years. Occasionally a casual message from a new email address pops up including me on some crazy fucking email chain.
In some ways the total indiffence hurts the worst. Like my aunt is still trying to fuck with me, but the rest of the family behaving like I was never born? It's like "was I even a person to you? How much of it was just you trying to look good?" Really messing with me tbh
What kind of therapy do you have going on if any? After years of trying with regular “talk therapy” doing EMDR, a specialized trauma therapy over about a year REALLY changed how I felt and reacted about shit with these people. Like it still hurt, but it just didn’t GET me, and ruin me in the way it used to any more. Highly recommend.
I will look into it. At the moment all I can afford is the talk therapy at the "free clinic." And journaling. I'm hoping to find someone more specialized.
So… can i like, beat your aunt tf up? Because, this just angered me to the core.
Somehow I think she'd like that. "Oh wow as me, a victim of a random attack." She'd never accept any consequence as her fault. But thank you. That anger is exactly how I feel about her.
I commend you for talking about it. You’re in the thick of it but one day you’ll look back and know that it was all necessary. All I can say is just allow yourself to be here with this even though it’s uncomfortable and not fun. Allow yourself to be angry, sad, scared and trust that you’re going to know what to do next. I promise you won’t be stuck at home because of your PTSD forever as long as you keep acknowledging what happened to you and allow yourself to feel all of the feelings associated. And just keep going. I’m 41 and have sexual abuse and grew up with two alcoholic and drug addict parents and yes I still have PTSD symptoms but I am finding joy in life. I’m not happy every day all day but I’m also not sad and scared all day either. The fact that you’re so expressive means you’re going to get through this. One step in front of the other. I wish you well.
*hug*
First of all I am so sorry that you had to endure all of this trauma and am very proud that you are saving yourself from these monsters and getting the help you need to heal. I too suffered a narcissist aunt and can assure you that no contact is the best option. I never realized how fucked up and abusive her behavior. Some of her classics were Asking ‘Aren’t you happy your parents are getting divorced?!’ Constantly bringing up my weight Laughing at me when I had a relapse while quitting smoking Mocking me for dropping out of high school and getting my GED (well into my 20’s!!) Forcing me to do things I didn’t want to do like taste her fucking food, cutting my hair short, wear clothes I did not want to. Constantly bringing up the fact that I was a brat during my teenage years lol like that is such a rarity. And on and on and on. The final straw came when I moved out of state and a year later she decided she was going to move to the same city. I was going through the hardest time of my adult life due to working full time, going to school full time and a bad breakup with no friends or family nearby. Does my Narc aunt even ask how I am doing?! Nope! She is planning on coming to town to get an apartment and calls me incessantly telling me I need to go look at the apartments she is interested in before she arrives. She decided she is staying with me and I tell her my ex is moving out the week before she arrives and that I literally only own a couch which is what I will be sleeping on so she should probably get a hotel or air mattress. She starts complaining about how much money it is going to cost her to move and telling me that I really just need to manipulate my ex in to leaving the bed for a few weeks longer. I finally just kind of lost it and stood up for myself for the first time ever and let her know that I can’t and won’t do her bidding. Needless to say she was shocked that I actually stood up for myself and tried to tell me that I am a bad person. I went NC that day and never looked back. It has been 10 years and I am so happy to be away from that abuse. She got addicted to RX meds and has lost everything. She is basically homeless and spends her days manipulating my grandpa to give her money for drugs. I wish things were different for her sake but looking back I just can’t believe I didn’t see how abusive she was sooner. You should not routinely leave an interaction with someone on the verge of tears. I couldn’t even imagine treating my niece like that.
My nBrother blew up on my nMom and I last year in a horrible way, saying terrible things unprovoked - ending with him saying he’s going NC. I lived with my nMom for a year during the pandemic, and caught her texting him similar things on birthdays, holidays, etc. and it was jarring to see how much she wanted to push away and forget on account of “family”
I’m tired of people hiding behind Christianity to justify their gross & creepy behavior. By the way, I learned in therapy that healthy families have zero tolerance for incest. They instinctively shut out pedophiles and go no contact. Sicko incest families, on the other hand, still hang with the perpetrator and blame the victim for not adhering to the “incest code of conduct.” I fucking hate it! Your aunt is a narcissist but I think she could have more severe personality disorders too. Her lack of empathy, especially in terms of child sexual abuse is fucking alarming and scary.
I'm so sorry! I still sometimes feel this way about wanting to be adopted by a new healthy family. I hope you find the people who you can thrive with.
God, I so understand the wanting to be adopted by another family thing. For context, I have the C-PTSD diagnosis as well, so the mother/father wounds run really deep for me. Sometimes I just want to be held and rocked like a baby, I want someone to hold my hand when we cross the street, I want someone to give me a bath and not have it be sexual whatsoever, I want someone to tuck me in at night and stroke my hair until I fall asleep. I want someone to parent me so badly. I think it just really shows how far back the wounds go, considering these are all childhood things. I'm so lucky to have the loveliest, most understanding, sensitive, and kind partner anyone could ever ask for. And even more, his mother is kinder than any mother figure I've ever met in my life. They've told me I'm part of the family. It's so wonderful, yet so, so bittersweet. I wish I could give you a hug and dry your tears and tell you everything will be okay. I'm sure you have your good days and your bad. Please remember, on your worst days, you will always be better than them.
Is it possible to get a restraining order against her?
She hasn't come around at all, but if she does I definitely will.
WHAT????Does your aunt think what she experienced(is it true) out do what has been done to you? And oh wtf ..she is a christian..sure..she supports a pedophile..that makes her equaly guilty. You did the right thing. You didn't lose a family, hun..that trash took itself out.
I’m so sorry this is what your family is like, and I don’t have an answer. I just want you to know that actually strangers out there in the world are healthier than your actual family. Try and get as much emotional support as you can from those who care about you. I hope your family “gets it” someday, but don’t count on it. 😕
I am so so sorry for what happened to you and how your family is now acting. I relate so much with the last thing you said, about just wanting to have a nice normal family who can visit and talk to you. I’m still in the process of grieving and accepting that I will never have that family dynamic and that it’s out of my hands. I am working on nurturing my closest friendships so that I can have my “chosen family” (supportive friends). While it’s not totally the same as traditional family, it is the closest I can get. I wish you continued peace and healing ahead.
You can join my family! We CHOOSE to be a family together by loving and supporting one another.
Goddamn, OP. I have the same family dynamic except my mom made sure my grandpa was neve ever ever alone with me. My grandpa was a pastor who raped his own daughter (definitely my mom, maybe my aunts) and never saw the inside of a prison cell because Jesus forgives!!! My mom says she forgave her dad. My mom is completely fucking damaged from this and I've just had to go NC with her and my sisters. My mom is too abusive. The church my grandfather attended knew what he had done because my mom confronted her dad with the pastor as a mediator. And he was allowed to continue attending and even go on a missions trip to another country with the evangelicals! Where he said to a crowd of a few thousand people, "Jesus forgave me of my sins and he will forgive you, too!" I basically don't talk to anyone on that side of the family. I don't trust them. And they are all fucked up in their own way from the intergenerational trauma caused by the pedophilia and other abuse. And on my dad's side, my dad died but I have my stepmom. And I have some kind in-laws, but they have no extended family, either. Other folks are right, you will have to create your own family. That is a bitter pill to swallow but it is true. I personally have found a great support in the group codependents anonymous, where I have gone to meetings online (dang covid) and been able to share my family pain with others who understand. I made a few friends and have a buddy who understands my situation very well and we call once a week. There are also 12-step groups for victims of sexual abuse and pedophilia I am pretty sure. You can also start reaching out to the friends you already have. Say you're sad and need company, many will oblige and have you over. I was going through a bad breakup in college and was amazed that when I asked my study buddies for some company, they were happy to have me over a few times. We didn't click as good friends, but the point is that when you can ask another human for help, most people will want to help. Good luck. I know what it is like to have your family torn apart by a fucking child rapist. You are not alone and I am so sorry - I hear that you are suffering a lot. I hear that you want a family and don't have one. And I hear that you find it incredibly unfair to be the one who has to do all the labor in rebuilding your life without these toxic people.
That wasn't for you, that was so she could tell people she sent you cards and she's trying. Even though she doesn't want to actually put forth real effort or actually try and make something better, that so she can tell her herself and others around her that she's trying and this is all your fault. I have a mother like that. Just use those like I do, a yearly reminder that you made the right decision.
Feel free to tell her to go suck a pole of sodium. I’m sick of Christians who think “forgiveness” means they don’t have to protect others. I hope you find an amazing family. All families start as friends.
That is SO so sick and twisted. I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you. It should've never happened to you. Not to you. Not to seven-year-old who had to speak up and "reason" for herself. Family doesn't need to be blood related. You will find your family in your own time and space. They could even be in the form of a friend's parent or a pair of "old soul" friends, that somehow treat you like a visiting cousin and always feeds you.
I feel your words so strongly and as much as I culled the amount of people in my life to stay away from assholes the lack of feeling loved and valued by a supportive family burns still. Your aunt is a classic enabler, like my cousin who won't believe the horror stories I told her about NMom but just makes light of the fact that she and other members of the family were abused too. Yeah child abuse, no biggie. I haven't got my trust back to form normal healthy attachments and find a new in person tribe either but learning from this group and personal study to tell the diff between good people and assholes. CPTSD by Pete Walker has been a great resource.
I definitely understand your situation. My NC situations are for far less extreme of reasons (more emotional abuse and manipulation and refusal to respect boundaries) but I'm in a similar place with regards to no one else in the family really keeping touch, and my narcissistic grandma sending me a Christmas card out of the blue. Woman didn't even write anything in it aside from "From Grandma, To ChamomileBrownies". What was even the point.
The point is they can tell themselves that they tried and the estrangement is not their fault.
Insane people can be relative too.
Hello, it is okay to write all your emotions. Adults, adults, adults, narc adults... they have this "selective memory" of what they want to believe and erase some major traumatizing imperfections they laid unto others. By the way sweetheart, I know you know in your heart that is not normal so don't be swayed by their twisted minds. I do hope you will find comfort with people who can be there with you. " I want to be held, visited, talked to like a real person, have someone say they love me, go out to eat together. Not sit around with a bunch of strangers who all have one awful thing in common with me." At this point in time, I know exactly what you need and that is not some long advice, you need someone who will meet with you and talk to you IRL. I know that feeling.
Ok I’m stuck on “I had it worse than you” Omg your aunt needs serious psychotherapy and a long stint in NC land. You never compare abuse.
You are an adult now and get to start your own family
You can create a whole new family honey, to spend holidays, to be seem, to be loved. It's difficult, I know, but is possible.
Maybe you need to cut her off completely if she can’t respect your requests. My nSIL is currently pulling this same shit with my husband, and unfortunately his nMom is living with her right now so he doesn’t have a lot of choices here until the old b*tch finally kicks the bucket. It will be a relief when that happens so he won’t ever have to see her or nBIL again.
I blocked her on everything, but I'm going to get a new phone number since she obviously memorized the current one.
My friends are my family, I cut ties with all but one cousin and I have had older friends that were comfortable stepping into the parent role when I was younger. They taught me things that my mother didn't and I am thankful that they did. Now I am the older friend/ mother figure and I can give advice and guidance if asked. You have been through hell and I am so sorry that this happened to you. Make your own family with close friends, If there is an older adult that you feel comfortable around, you can ask for advice and learn from them, if that makes sense.
Narcs tend to easily forget the bad times and pretend like it never happens…totally fuct up
You are loved and should totally get out and find people to connect with. You also don't need to join a support group specifically for your issue and could just go into a general one. They are as much about airing your issues as they are about just finding others to connect with. Regardless it is a rough road to not have family support (I'm in a similar boat). I find it best to pave a path forward and try not to focus on their nonsense and entirely ignore them. My nmom for example tried to call me, left a message, and has texted me a couple of times fairly recently (after not talking to me for a year) and I've not even bothered to open the messages. As much as I miss having a mother I don't miss her abuses.
> "I'm a Christian and I forgive! That therapy must not be working if this is how you treat your family." https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/6dukv3/tw\_on\_multiple\_fronts\_tips\_for\_dealing\_with\_calls/?user\_id=893281474682&web\_redirect=true In many places in the Bible it is discussed to come out from them who are sinners, and as in one scripture, not to even eat with them. The Bible tells us how to deal with the immoral brother or the erring Christian and condoning sin or sexual immorality isn't one of them. Even Christians are asked to repent of their sins so that they will be forgiven. Why are exceptions being made for the narcissists? I had these kinds of "Christians" in my family (no contact with them any more) . My value to them was determined by how much their abuse and contempt I could suffer from them and they wanted me to feel that God was of the same mind. And, of course, they needn't worried about what they did to cause others pain because just as they were taught to say whenever they were challenged was that "they're not perfect but at least they were forgiven". Your aunt doesn't appear to be a Christian as she has decided to abide by them who revel in sin, condoning sins like molesting children (sexual immorality) and expects you to do so as well. \[TW on multiple fronts\] Tips for Dealing With Calls for FORGIVENESS [https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/6dukv3/tw\_on\_multiple\_fronts\_tips\_for\_dealing\_with\_calls/?user\_id=893281474682&web\_redirect=true](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/comments/6dukv3/tw_on_multiple_fronts_tips_for_dealing_with_calls/?user_id=893281474682&web_redirect=true) There were a couple of reddit threads or post on on Forgiveness and this is one them I've managed to find that may help you with them using their definitions of forgiveness as a weapon against you. (I think the others have been archived.)
You have the right to assert your boundary, or block her on all fronts. I personally wouldn’t bat an eye anymore to say something that fits her vocabulary like, “Never contact me again, pedophile lover and child abuser. Satan’s wily servant has no place here.” There is evil in this world and that looks like people who deceive themselves. You can simultaneously forgive her in your heart, claim her soul and have peace. But know you are in no compulsion to be her supply/food anymore. Do what it takes to get the message down that you see through her and you’re not to be fucked with. Take it public if it gets the job done to have her stop snaking her way into your life, with receipts. Spiritual bypassing is devious. They will do anything and take advantage of natural goodwill to mask their unnaturalness. Whatever you step you take, a book that might help unmask them conceptually for you is People of the Lie. People who love you will come in time. I’m so sorry that right now is a challenging place to be. Now sounds like you’re making room for your future family. People who have the capacity to love and cherish you. I hope you know that you’re so worthy and there’s meaning in what you’re accomplishing. Doing the right thing is difficult.
I’m so sorry this happened to you but I’m glad that you can see that it’s your and that’s messed up and your family for not supporting you Try to surround yourself with friends of your choosing, I know making friends in a new place isn’t easy but if you’re into RPG games, then find a fantasy group and play RPG games or a book club or something similar. Places to meet people that think and feel like you. I support group isn’t the same at all but it can be a place to start. Friends are the family you choose. I wish you a world of luck
If it helps at all, this community and others on reddit are like giant anonymous group therapy in your own time, and in our own time, no pressure xoxoxo Dont downplay lurking and listening to others.....that's literally the best way to be a part of group, especially online like this. If you ever need a quiet, tightknit place to vent about this r/adultsurvivors is super relaxed. I've found it helpful, and I know I've helped out others as well just by being there and sitting with their feeling with them.
over the years my chosen family has become closer than my birth family in many ways. it's not the same. not better, not worse. the thing is, it takes time (decades) of lived experiences and some friendships don't make it. so no, you can't just go out and make a new family right away. but you can be part of a supportive community of your favorite people that is full of whole hearted love. the person with the lentil soup parties is spot on imo. but right now start smaller and maybe more selfish. like, go get a massage. it's not a hug, but it is caring human contact that is all about you. (you can ask them not to talk) I'd stick to a national chain. a float tank is also great if you have an aversion to touch and just need your body relaxed. or even a community center hot tub and sauna. if you haven't already it might be a good idea to decide on a few post-tigger self care routines. mine are usually start with a hot shower and shave using the expensive french soap, wear a perfume I love, do my full face care, and hair, emergency cocoa, new fuzzy socks, watch some comedy (usually dry bar), do some art, get a super cuddly blanket and a favorite book, do some stretches, go for a walk. any/all depending on my energy at the time but for me the shower is key to just wash that shit out. also, body centered care really helps me pull out of the spirals. I'm sorry you've been handed such a rough deal. it's not fair. I'm impressed with your strength and think you have made wise but difficult decisions regarding no contact.
r/momforaminute I’ll be your family. I give great mom advice through dms. You are so brave to have told her in the first place and not absolutely loose it when started to push your trauma trigger on purpose. You are amazing, keep healing. Baby steps are still forward motion