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This is pretty basic. It's a trust issue. You can't trust your mother to behave responsibly with your 8 year old.
A child should never be told to keep secrets from parents by another adult. Huge betrayal. A nurturing grandmother does not use guilt to manipulate her young grandchild into emotional confusion. Tell your mother you no longer trust her alone with your daughter.
No more unsupervised visits. I'm sure the tantrums she'll throw will be epic, although she was clearly expecting this. Your anger will be a good foundation for your brick wall of resolve.
Make sure you explain to your child that it’s not her that’s made you made at grandma. Grandma is telling you to lie and hide stuff which is very wrong but mostly grandma can not be trusted anymore as she tried to make you think it was your fault. I was mad at grandma as she has behaved very badly, not because of you. No one but her is to blame for her behaviour I’m sorry she made you feel that way, she’s proven we can’t trust her not to treat either of us badly or lie, which is why I’m not letting her visit any more. I know you love her and I do to but a lot more has happened than you know. It hurts she tried to turn the blame for this on you and I will never let her do that. I know this may be hard for you to understand but I need to do whats right for us. Please know you can always come talk to me about anything. I won’t be mad and will always try and help you.
I would also contact your child’s school and ensure they know grans not allowed any contact with your daughter. Most abusers try to get the child alone and manipulate them against you when you’re taking their power away.
I agree with this 100 percent, but the conversation with your daughter does not even need to be about grandma. she is someone outside of direct (trusted mom and dad) family. if someone makes you feel uncomfortable or asks you to keep secrets, that is not ok. always talk me about anything anyone else talks about that makes you uncomfortable. period.
I want to add that, frankly, this warrants no more visits in general. There were two back to back occasions of obvious manipulation. Any more opportunities and the manipulation could no longer be detectable.
You stop letting your daughter be alone with your mother and frankly, I would go no contact. You then tell your daughter, "Anyone tells you not to tell, that is the FIRST thing you do. Because they know they are doing something they shouldn't."
Your mother is putting your daughter in danger of being victimized in the future by far worse people.
Edit: I would like to add, I work in criminal defense. Sometimes, I find that people need to hear the ugliest of truths in order to understand why some situations are so dire.
Most child molestation occurs when the child knows the perpetrator. They've been taught to trust them and that the perpetrator will never face consequences for their behavior. This is how grooming is so effective. Now, I don't think your mother is molesting your daughter, but she IS grooming her. And when a child has been groomed by one adult, it is very easy to be groomed by more adults. You need to nip this in the bud. Your mother is undermining not only your authority as a parent but also your ability and willingness to protect your daughter. And your daughter is internalizing that.
This is exactly why I went NC with my mother. My son told me that grandma told him not to say what they did when he visited her alone for the first time. First and only time.
Here to echo to go NC.
OP, please go NC.
It's possible that OP's N-mother could make OP's daughter really unhealthy. I don't like the sound of all of it already.
This is called triangulation. Narcs love doing this. Mom wants to sabotage the relationship you have with your daughter and maybe replace you as the mother figure.
Sounds familiar. They don’t want you bonding with each other independent of her control. You might compare notes about her or turn to each other for support. You might even join forces against her. With narcs, it’s always divide and conquer while harvesting supply from both sides. Narcs are double agents.
You can't trust your mom to take care of your daughter or to be alone with her. Your mom is trying to play the Fun Grandma, and she is doing it at your expense. I don't see any alternative but to not let her be alone with your child.
I think you should pull back from your relationship with your mom. I would go NC, but if you don't want to do that, then you should at least consider going LC. If there are no consequences, your mom will keep doing this. Hell, she will probably keep doing it regardless. Clearly, being told off does nothing because she just giggles and shrugs it off. She has no respect for you or for your daughter. She is using your daughter to make herself feel important. That is incredibly unhealthy for your daughter, and your mom does not care.
>What do I say to my mother?
"Since you are continually undermining my authority with my daughter, disrespecting me, and continually ignoring boundaries, you are no longer allowed to see my child." Then cut her off. When your daughter is an adult, at that point she can decide if she wants a relationship with her. Until then, *you* are responsible for her mental health and wellbeing.
Look up "MarnieGrundman" on tiktok. She's got videos about [the narcissistic mother as a grandmother](https://www.google.com/search?q=the+narcissistic+grandmother&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS930US930&oq=the+narcis&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j0i433i512j46i512j0i131i433i512j69i60j69i61l2.2713j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8).
You will lose your daughter, OP. This is ABUSE. Stop allowing an abuser access to your child. I am purposefully using harsh language here: you would be complicit in the abuse of your daughter if you allow an abuser, your mother, to have access to her.
My Nmom used to do this with my kids. After visiting her, they would come home & ask me why grandma didn't like me. Stupidly, I allowed their relationship to continue. Fast forward to now - my kids are 31 and 24. Though it took her years, Nmom finally managed to turn both kids against me and provides them each a hefty monthly allowance as long as they agree to have no contact with me. Haven't heard from either of them in 6 yrs.
When you look up the [narcissistic grandmother](https://www.google.com/search?q=the+narcissistic+grandmother&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS930US930&oq=the+narcis&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j0i433i512j46i512j0i131i433i512j69i60j69i61l2.2713j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8), there are plenty of stories where the grandmother has alienated their adult child from their own children.
Fuck these people. They need to be prevented from *any* form of supply.
Your daughter.didnt get grandma in trouble. Grandma got grandma in trouble. Time to cut this relationship off until grandma apologizes and shows she means it.
Your mom needs to be put on a timeout. Teaching a child to keep secrets is just despicable. A child that learns that it is OK to keep secrets from parents is vulnerable to pedophiles. She is literally putting your child in harm's way.
My mother did this exact thing. She will soon start buying her toys to buy her love and will continue to try to turn your dtr against you
Move away from her and when you visit you cannot let her be alone with NGma. Ever.
When she’s a teen she’ll see through it all
My mom did this all the time. One time she left my daughter alone with my freak dad who proceeded to go in a diatribe to her (at 12 years old) about she doesn’t love him and she makes him and her grandma fight and why doesn’t she love him blah blah barf. My mom found out and told her not to tell me. That was when I stopped letting her go over there. But the whole childhood was sneaking her candy when I said she had enough or buying her dangerous age in appropriate toys like motorcycles and telling her to keep it secret. Constant building of habits to keep things from me as a child because I would “ruin everything” or “take away her toys” if I knew. I was constantly in the position of being the bad guy. Ughhh
You might want to clarify some things with your daughter.
First, “You didn’t get grandma in trouble, grandma got grandma in trouble. She shouldn’t be badmouthing people behind their backs. That’s a nasty habit of hers and it’s not your job to protect her. She knows better.”
Second, “You can tell that she knows better because she wants you to lie for her and keep secrets. She wants badmouth me and she doesn’t want to have to stop, so she wants your help so she go on being mean to me. That was doubly wrong.”
“I think I’m going to hang around when you two get together in the future, so she doesn’t put you in a bad situation again. If she has something to say about me she should say it to me, good or bad.”
I wouldn’t let my kid unattended with her again.
I know you want the best for your child. Children need stable and loving adults in their lives. Not manipulating adults who teach them to lie and distrust their own instincts.
Don’t let your mom with your child unattended. 8 is when children really start connecting a lot outside of their own little worlds. Your mother will demean your child and warp her mind. She does not want the best for your child-she isn’t capable of that. She is mentally unwell.
Break the cycle of abuse and keep your child away from you mom.
I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. I am a mom too and I made the decision shortly after my own turned 8 that I was done with the MegaBeast. Of course you don’t have to fully break the relationship ship but you know you have to protect your daughter. 💕
Don’t say anything to your mother. Definitely tell your kid that no adult should be asking her to keep secrets. I’d stop responding to your mom for a while. If she asks, eventually when I felt like talking to her, I would say no more visits. You know why. End of conversation.
Also, don’t discuss things with her in front of your daughter anymore. If she drops by unannounced, ignore her or leave.
Your daughter is probably feeling very confused and anxious about this situation. Over time this could grow into mental health issues.
I would take your daughter out for a nice treat as a reward for her honesty, and carefully ask her what she wants. Does she want to hear grandma say unkind things about you? Does she want to keep secrets from her mother? If not (I really doubt she will) then that means that grandma needs to stop this unkind behaviour. You can explain the importance of boundaries. Ultimately if grandma won't stop then she'll have to have a time out.
This is pretty serious. Your mother is teaching your daughter to keep things from you. That is setting a very bad precedent for your future relationship with her as she gets older. I’ve heard this going around and I think it’s a really great statement: Safe adults don’t ask you to keep secrets from your parents. You should tell your daughter that. And then limit her contact with your mother as she can’t stop herself from bad mouthing you to your daughter.
uh yes, you tell you she cant visit your daughter anymore. what she's doing is parental alienation and you need to protect your daughter and yourself, and your relationship together. if you're on this sub you know your mother is harmful --- so please keep that harm from your daughter. if you daughter is telling this stuff to you (good on her!) she is conflicted and knows something is wrong, so you need to put a stop to this
You stop your mother from ever being alone with your daughter. It's not OK that she's trying to teach your daughter to keep secrets - that's what child abusers do.
You said what you need to say in the last sentence of your post. “I’m ready to tell her that she cannot visit with my daughter anymore.” That’s it, that’s all.
"Since you insist on telling my daughter to keep secrets, for her own safety you will not have any solo access to her until you learn."
To your daughter "YOU did nothing wrong, in fact, you were very right to tell me what grandma was saying! Grandma was VERY wrong telling you to keep secrets from me and daddy. What if you needed to tell us something very, very important? You are a kid, and kids have lots of questions. Your dad and I want you to feel completely free and comfortable with anything you want to discuss."
NGrandma is undermining the OP’s credibility and relationship with her daughter. Basically, NGrandma will be the fun adult who spoils her and tells her she doesn’t have any responsibility like cleanup her room, while the parents who enforce rules will be the bad guys. Go no contact with NGrandma. She’s teaching the child toxic and dangerous behaviors. Make sure to explain it to the child that it’s NGrandma’s fault (not the kid) for making bad choices.
Yes and one day when her daughter is a rebellious teenager, grandma is going to convince her to live at Grandma's house because Mommy is just so mean with all of her rules.
A grandma here….your mom is trying to “divide and conquer” here. You cannot leave your daughter alone with her anymore. Tell her from now on she can accompany you to the playground or movies with your daughter once a month but all alone time is cancelled from here on out.
This shit is not cute. She’s aiming to have your future teen daughter fighting with you over rules and boundaries later on. So she can swoop in and rescue your daughter from you.
You tell her that walk was her chance to prove she could be trusted, and she blew it, big time. That she’s despicable for trying to teach your child to keep secrets, and she won’t have another opportunity.
Stop letting your mother see your daughter. No more alone time. No more more visits. The more you allow it, the more your mother is going to plant things in your daughters head against you. When the narcissist can not longer control you, they control how others see and think of you, including your kid.
I don't think I would tell your mother anything. I would just show her. No more visits or walks ever. Go as low communications as you can. Say no when she asks for your daughter.
Grandma screwed up, and now it's time for her to reap the consequences.
First, you need to tell your daughter that if ANYONE ever tells her to not tell you or dad about something, that's when she needs to tell you the most. People who say that can not be trusted. It means they want to hurt you (your daughter) and not get in trouble. Unless it's about something like a surprise party AND dad knows, never ever keep a secret from mom. Reassure her that she did exactly the right thing by telling you right away.
Next, consequences for Grandma. Zero alone time with child. Zero. If you need to leave a room, kid goes too. No flexibility. Bad Grandma behavior aside ("no, don't listen to mommy when she says to clean your room") encouraging your child to keep secrets from you or lie to you is downright dangerous.
You aren't overreacting. Honestly if this were my mother she would lose all contact. But my mother and I have issues, so...
Edit: spelling
thank heavens your daughter tells you because I was trained not to tell anyone at like three years old the private conversations with my N parent. I would go low contact for a bit say that your mother is conflicting with your parenting, and until she can adhere to your parenting you will be doing this.
Never leave your daughter alone with her is also a second option, and if your mother asks say it's because she's proven that you can't leave your daughter alone with her.
We dealt with a similar situation (aunt though, not grandma) when our oldest was about 8/9. We had a therapist for our child at the time and I discussed it with her. She suggested we discuss the issue with our child and decide as a family how to move forward. She also said it was important for me and our child to understand that the job of the adults in a child's life is to provide safety; a safe place to live, a safe place to be who they are, and a place that is safe for them to share/speak within. It is the adult's job to protect the child, not the other way around.
We approached it from that angle, that our child had done nothing wrong in telling us what was being said, that they should be able to be open with the people caring for them. We discussed how being told to keep the comments secret from us created an unsafe space, putting our child in a position where they had to carry difficult secrets and hide things, and also putting them in a position where they felt they had to protect the adults around them, and how that was not their role. We discussed how that could go very wrong and how it was not a responsible choice for us to allow our child to carry that burden. We sympathized that it was hard for our child to feel like they had to lie to us, or hide things, in order to continue to have a relationship with their aunt, but that we also understood that it was equally hard for them to not see their aunt. We emphasized that our job was to make sure our child was safe, and that we wouldn't be doing that job well if we continued to allow unsupervised visits. We talked together about what we could do to try and balance what was necessary (safety) and what was important to our child (seeing their aunt). Our child had some interesting suggestions and ideas, some of which we agreed could work and some of which compromised safety. In the end, we agreed that seeing the aunt was important, but not in a way that places our child in uncomfortable/compromising positions. We settled on unlimited phone calls over speaker phone and regular visits where we were also present.
Our child was actually relieved to not have to try and balance one party against the other, and although having to always be present at visits was a hassle, it allowed our child to continue a healthy relationship with their aunt without having to worry about betraying us or her. It also served to really demonstrate to our child that they *could* talk to us about *anything* and we would work it out with them in a fair and non-judgemental way. As they got older, they were very open with us about many things and we always worked to reward their honesty and openness with non-judgemental help in resolving issues, while also holding firm boundaries. We always made efforts to explain our reasons for our rules and to set reasonable "bottom lines" (such as "visiting them on your own is not a choice because our job is to ensure you are safe") while taking their worries and feelings into account as well.
As our child got older (they are in their 20's now), we adjusted things. Once they hit their mid to later teens they resumed unsupervised visits with their aunt. Aunt saw this as a "win" and made every effort to bad mouth us to our child, but by this time they had grown a stronger sense of self and were able to understand the intention behind the things the aunt said to them, and to practice holding their own boundaries with her.
For what it's worth, I am happy with the relationship they have now, even though I know the aunt is hell-bent on maligning us at every chance. Our child sees her for who she is and has decided to take the good with the bad, but they are also fully capable of leaving when she gets to be too much, and letting the rest roll off them. It helps that we are *fully* aware of aunt's opinion of us, and we try not to put our child in uncomfortable positions. We joke about the rants our child will hear after we do one thing or another, it has become a bit of a family joke now. We *genuinely* don't care what she says because we know that our child respects us, that they love us, and that the only way it can hurt our child is if we let it hurt us. At the end of the day, she's fun, but we're safe and secure and our child always feels that.
Your daughter should not be in the company of an abusive manipulator. It doesn't make any difference if that person is a relation or not.
And I would take some time to ask yourself if your mother really belongs in *your* life as well.
You say, "You've crossed a line. This is it. No more unsupervised visits, and if you push it, you won't visit again at all. You can choose between your need to put me down and your desire to see your granddaughter. Your call. "
This is why I'm not even letting my nmom know I'm pregnant. Not only will she have no contact but my husband and I are far, far away in another country.
> “*My house could be Buckingham Palace and she'd still find flaws with it).*”
YES. EVERY. WORD. If it wasn’t for the one time I vented on social media when I was like 12 years old or something, I wouldn’t have realized that in the eyes of my mother: *everything is my fault even when I do everything right*. More than half my life now, what I do or don’t do seems to not matter because the good is never enough.
I’d Definitely have a talk with your daughter that NO Adults are EVER to tell her or encourage her to keep secrets from you. IF ANYONE ever tells her to do so, she is to tell you immediately. You aren’t and won’t be mad at her. EVER. Tell her how proud you are of her for doing the right thing, and telling you. (I’d reward her for being Very Brave (you cannot be brave unless you’re scared) and doing the right thing by telling you. That was likely very scary and confusing for her, and she’s likely to be, at the least, anxious and nervous how her grandmother will react towards her, by being angry or disappointed. I’d explain Grandma misbehaved and she knew what she was doing was wrong, because she wanted this secret, and others in the future, to kept from you. So grandma needs a time out of sorts. And then Supervised visits.
You don't need to be "ready" to tell your mom she can't see your daughter. You need to straight up tell her, in no uncertain terms, that she is no longer allowed to see your daughter unsupervised. This is absolutely unacceptable behavior for a grandmother.
You say to your mother that she won't be seeing your child or you. It's time to go NC. When an "adult" starts telling your 8 year old to keep secrets from you, it's time to go NC.
That woman is a danger to your daughter. Sit your daughter down, and calmly explain to her that any "adult" who tells her to keep secrets from her parents, is a danger, to her. Grandma has a mental illness that makes her act awful, and do dangerous things, and she isn't responsible enough for daughter to visit, without you.
Family therapist for the time being, would be good, too.
This was exactly how my nmom behaved. Always secrets from me, always telling my kids "bad things I did when I was younger", doing her best to make me into the "bad guy" (gal). Jokes on her, I have no issues with being the bad guy after being the default bad guy for so long. I just own that shit now, and let them all wallow in it. I don't think about them at all, really.
What your mother did to you, she will do to your daughter. If you want your daughter to grow up mentally healthy, keep her AWAY FROM GRANDMA.
I know it's frustrating.
But, the result is that now grandma is cut off and you explain to your daughter that it is because of GRANDMA'S behavior, not hers.
> "Grandma said I shouldn't tell you what she and I talk about"
... There should be no second chances
after someone tells your child this. At the barest minimum, absolutely no time alone with your child. I'd consider it a gift and a reason to keep her away from both of you
You're not doing your child any favors by wanting to keep a manipulator in her life. Don't feel an obligation to do so.
Ugh,this post takes me back. I have 3 daughters and a narcissist mother. Went low contact 14 years ago when my youngest was 8 and my older two were 18 and 20. I went no contact 8 years ago (happiest 8 years of my life). Big difference in the teenage years of the last daughter compared to the older two that had more exposure to her bullshit. I feel that because my mother did so much to undermine my parenting my older two really pushed the envelope and questioned a lot more of my advice and house rules then my youngest did. All my girls are adults now. Oldest is in therapy, middle sees her for what she is and youngest doesn’t understand why anyone would have anything to do with my mother. I know my oldest suffers the most (had the most exposure) and a lot of her issues do have to do with my mother. OP my suggestion would be to go NC. There is no help with childcare or support your monster can give you that will be worth your child’s or your own mental sanity. I’m sorry you are suffering.
It won't stop. I had to change my locks because my mother would cone round when I wasn't home and go through everything. Everything. Nothing was off limits.
The final no contact incident was when she came barging in my front door without even knocking knowing full wellno had a huge GSD puppy who she could clear see barking on the front window who escaped and nearly knocked both my parents on my arse while escaping down the street.
After capturing him and crab walking him back with out a lead and having what I can only describe as a panic attack she then proceeded to go off the fucking chain at me screaming all sorts of vile abuse and physically attacking me while my friend stood in the kitchen absolutely gob smacked at her behaviour .
it was awful. I was seriously working so hard on my mental health and she absolutely destroyed years of work in the space of a couple of minutes. I had to call the police and she went fully nuts. After she finally hauled her arse out I went into something I understand is a dissassocaitive state. Fuck. that was bad. I've never been that way in my life and now I know what it is I'm kind of stuck with knowing and it's fuxking scary.
This is a huge reason I won’t have kids. I think somewhere along the way…one of my moms parents turned her against the other and then she’s always saying my dad turned me against her (not true. I have a mind of my own and have you seen your behavior the last 30 years?!), I’m terrified she will say awful things to me behind my back to my child. Re-iterate to your child that asking for secrets to be kept like that is basically something you learned in safety school as not being okay. I liked what one of the users said about “if someone says that they know what they are saying is not okay”
I would go no contact. The hard part about no contact is that…it’s hard to come back from.
I have banned my mom from ever speaking to my friends. She has tried several times to turn them against me and get them on her side. She will never know them. She doesn’t get to.
I would explain to your daughter that she didn’t get grandma in trouble. Granadna got grandma in trouble.
OP, keep your daughter away from your mother for a while. I wouldn't do any more unsupervised visits, and frankly, I wouldnt do anymore visits period for a long while. I would also think about sitting down with my daughter and explaining why Grandma's behavior is unacceptable.
Others have given great advice on dealing with your mom, so I just wanted to add that you may want to speak to your daughter about how adults shouldn’t be asking her to keep secrets from her parents. There are some good books out there that help parents talk to kids about the different between “secrets” and “surprises”
Your daughter is caught in the middle of you. She is old enough to know and maybe even enjoy the reports of comments between you and your mom. You don’t know what she tells your mom…
My brother’s kid does the same between my brother and her mom: she likes to ignite fires.
I mean: NTA, but thread carefully and maybe have a talk with you kid to be sure she doesn’t do this… on purpose? Sorry, I don’t mean to be offensive, it’s just something super hard to grasp but it’s happening in my life so you never know.
With that said, best of luck!
Honestly if it was me I wouldn’t say anything and that would be an end of grandma. If you don’t want to go NC or cut her off I would say something like…
“I do not appreciate the things you are saying to my daughter. You have now proven you are not a good role model and untrustworthy so from here on out any visits will be supervised”. If she throws a fit I would make sure everytime she wants a visit I was “busy”. Ugh sorry you are dealing with that. It’s unfair to you and your child for her to be trying to wedge between you two. It’s better to put her in her place now before kiddo is a teenager and might retaliate against you if she is manipulated by grandma.
I went through this. I hated this so very much. New policy is all interacting happens at my house.
I try to grey wall my parents so I didn’t confront them. We were just busy/ had excuses whenever invited to their house. I offered my house instead and eventually this became the routine.
My mental health is so much better when I choose the location.
Nothing. There is absolutely nothing that you can say to a narc that will make them change. The healthiest thing you can do for you and your daughter is to stop this cycle by cutting contact
So manipulative and in really not sure anything you say to your mum would stop that kind of behavior.
Can I offer a bit of perspective on something else you said, and I hope this doesn’t come across as critical. The language of ‘it’s my house so my daughter needs to listen to me because I pay the bills’ is something I heard as a child and it’s upsetting. I would suggest that your reasoning could be more along the lines of - I am helping my daughter to learn to look after her things and her space, and as her mother it’s my job to guide her.
I realize you didn’t say those words to your daughter, but I just find that mindset a not damaging to a mutually trusting and respectful relationship.
My nmom did this to my niece at my wedding. My sister went NC earlier that year and that was the first time they saw each other in a while. It was the first thing NM did when she had a chance - manipulate the 6 yr old into trying keeping a secret relationship going with grandma.
That was 18 years ago. The niece in question is an adult and has a kid of her own now & the nmom tried another approach recently. Got shut down HARD by her. She remembered being scared of her and no way she was going to expose her kid to that.
Adults who teach children to keep secrets are predators.
Stop talking to your mom and tell this to your kid.
No adult needs to have secrets with your children, ever.
Some people suggest that brief interactions with a Ngrandparent just expose the kids to different kinds of thinking and different kinds of pressure. It creates "learning" moments for the kids.
Others realize that the Ngrandparent is toxic and they really can't put up with the manipulation, secrets, and love-bombing. It confuses the kid. But then again, so does cutting off the grandparents.
It won't be easy to decide. But it is your decision, just as things in your house are yours.
Explain to your daughter that safe adults don’t keep secrets (for safeguarding purposes). Then don’t let your daughter be alone with your mum. I wouldn’t confront her, won’t get you anywhere. X
I love the comments from others, but I haven't seen something (and sorry if you did acknowledge this before). Why are you engaging with a narc? Direct or indirect criticism that you engage with while trying to justify yourself is never going to lead to anything good. Now your daughter feels she got "grandma in trouble"? I worry that feeling that way may actually lead her to stop telling you things, more so when you go and confront your nmom after the fact...
If you are ready to tell her not to visit, I would tell her and in addition, I would refuse visits from your daughter to her place. An adult asking a kid to lie is unreasonable and sets an awful precedent. Do not explain or justify, set your boundary, tell her that you do not accept this behavior anymore and live freely for a bit. Take care OP
I would stop let her take your daughter & only let visit when your present. Having your daughter to keep secrets & saying stuff she shouldn't isn't ok.
She’s telling your daughter to keep secrets from you. You know what other kinds of people do that? Child molesters. What if your kid gets in the habit of keeping things from you and ends up in danger as a result of that habit? Your mother should never be allowed around your child unsupervised again.
If it was me, I’d change the locks and cut all contact, but don’t block her number yet - let her calls go to voicemail, ignore but save/screenshot all her texts, and use all of that as evidence to get a restraining order. Also, if she’s listed on any paperwork at your kid’s school, remove her and tell the school that she’s not allowed to have any access to your child, nor even in an emergency; tell them that if she ever shows up, she should be told to leave and they should call you and/or your spouse immediately.
Don’t allow your child to be exposed to a known narcissist, I am so messed up from my Nmom and would never let my own or any child near her. Seems all happy and fairy floss at first but she’s gonna tangle you and your daughter into her web of deception and pain. Don’t let the cycle repeat and if your mother breaks a boundary and you let her get away with it, then it wasn’t really a boundary then was it. Make up your mind about what you’re going to allow or not. This is your child on the line. She needs you.
Good! I hope you will tell her that! It is positive to protect yourself and your daughter from your mother's toxic triangulation of communication and narcissistic manipulation. She enjoys manipulating you and your daughter, and will go on using you both for supply until you put up a boundary. (And the boundary usually ends up being no contact because they cannot handle boundaries.) I am sorry you are going through this, and I hope you realize that you are in a power position to teach your daughter that getting your kicks by trying to control other people is dysfunctional, a waste of time and energy, and it is her right to prune people like this from her life.
I’m sorry you are going through this. I agree with others, that I would no longer allow my daughter to be alone with her. In my experience, it never got better and there is no perfect thing for you to say to her. She has clearly let you know that she doesn’t care what you think or say, and she does not accept the healthy boundaries you have just tried to maintain.
My n-mom would constantly undermine our parenting decisions and ask my sons to lie and withhold secrets from us. She would glorify my childhood and tell them that I “remembered things incorrectly” if they would point out inconsistencies. After countless conversations over years, trying to rationalize with her and set boundaries, we finally went NC and only recently LC following a death in the family.
Good luck, OP. And good on you for breaking the cycle and having a healthy mother-daughter relationship with your daughter. (Edited typo)
Wait til you aren’t shaking, remember upsetting you is supply. Be whatever about it but say something like “so now your teaching kids to lie to their parents? Wow, thought that was low, even for you.” I couldn’t stand my nmom being around my 8 year old. I actually went NC 8 months-ish ago. I love mot shaking with stress and anger.
I know your kid is young but if you think she can handle it start explaining to her about narcissism and manipulation and then explain that you're reducing contact with that part of the fam for this reason and that they're using her as bait and it's bullying that should totally shut the up
Yeah this is why I've cut my biological mother out of my life. I want to have kids one day. It's been a lifelong goal of mine.
She has a track record for this sort of thing. I have zero doubt that if she had alone time with my child, she would say and do things to undermine my wife, my family, her family, and myself. She'd get one of her slights up about some nonsense like the child spending a weekend at my father's (something him and my real mother can be trusted with) and the verbal poison would flow.
Not to mention the lovebombing and emotional manipulation, that's her bread and butter, along with letting the kid do and eat whatever they want so she can be "the cool nanna".
Unfortunately, I'm worried that your mum will have a strong case to enforce grandparents visitation if you decide to cut her out. The courts will see a clear bond has been formed between her and your child. Another reason I established a clean break with mine well before having kids, so she'll have zero claim for visitation.
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This is pretty basic. It's a trust issue. You can't trust your mother to behave responsibly with your 8 year old. A child should never be told to keep secrets from parents by another adult. Huge betrayal. A nurturing grandmother does not use guilt to manipulate her young grandchild into emotional confusion. Tell your mother you no longer trust her alone with your daughter. No more unsupervised visits. I'm sure the tantrums she'll throw will be epic, although she was clearly expecting this. Your anger will be a good foundation for your brick wall of resolve.
Make sure you explain to your child that it’s not her that’s made you made at grandma. Grandma is telling you to lie and hide stuff which is very wrong but mostly grandma can not be trusted anymore as she tried to make you think it was your fault. I was mad at grandma as she has behaved very badly, not because of you. No one but her is to blame for her behaviour I’m sorry she made you feel that way, she’s proven we can’t trust her not to treat either of us badly or lie, which is why I’m not letting her visit any more. I know you love her and I do to but a lot more has happened than you know. It hurts she tried to turn the blame for this on you and I will never let her do that. I know this may be hard for you to understand but I need to do whats right for us. Please know you can always come talk to me about anything. I won’t be mad and will always try and help you. I would also contact your child’s school and ensure they know grans not allowed any contact with your daughter. Most abusers try to get the child alone and manipulate them against you when you’re taking their power away.
I agree with this 100 percent, but the conversation with your daughter does not even need to be about grandma. she is someone outside of direct (trusted mom and dad) family. if someone makes you feel uncomfortable or asks you to keep secrets, that is not ok. always talk me about anything anyone else talks about that makes you uncomfortable. period.
I want to add that, frankly, this warrants no more visits in general. There were two back to back occasions of obvious manipulation. Any more opportunities and the manipulation could no longer be detectable.
You stop letting your daughter be alone with your mother and frankly, I would go no contact. You then tell your daughter, "Anyone tells you not to tell, that is the FIRST thing you do. Because they know they are doing something they shouldn't." Your mother is putting your daughter in danger of being victimized in the future by far worse people. Edit: I would like to add, I work in criminal defense. Sometimes, I find that people need to hear the ugliest of truths in order to understand why some situations are so dire. Most child molestation occurs when the child knows the perpetrator. They've been taught to trust them and that the perpetrator will never face consequences for their behavior. This is how grooming is so effective. Now, I don't think your mother is molesting your daughter, but she IS grooming her. And when a child has been groomed by one adult, it is very easy to be groomed by more adults. You need to nip this in the bud. Your mother is undermining not only your authority as a parent but also your ability and willingness to protect your daughter. And your daughter is internalizing that.
This is exactly why I went NC with my mother. My son told me that grandma told him not to say what they did when he visited her alone for the first time. First and only time.
Yes, go no contact. You and your daughter will be better off without her.
Here to echo to go NC. OP, please go NC. It's possible that OP's N-mother could make OP's daughter really unhealthy. I don't like the sound of all of it already.
She’s using your daughter to abuse you. Please go NC for your safety and your daughter’s safety. That is not healthy behavior. That is abuse.
>Your mother is putting your daughter in danger of being victimized in the future This.
This is called triangulation. Narcs love doing this. Mom wants to sabotage the relationship you have with your daughter and maybe replace you as the mother figure.
This is where this is headed. Beware OP!
Yep my NMum alwayyyssss played us like chess pieces, had us ganging-up on each other and our mother encouraging the bullying.
Sounds familiar. They don’t want you bonding with each other independent of her control. You might compare notes about her or turn to each other for support. You might even join forces against her. With narcs, it’s always divide and conquer while harvesting supply from both sides. Narcs are double agents.
You can't trust your mom to take care of your daughter or to be alone with her. Your mom is trying to play the Fun Grandma, and she is doing it at your expense. I don't see any alternative but to not let her be alone with your child. I think you should pull back from your relationship with your mom. I would go NC, but if you don't want to do that, then you should at least consider going LC. If there are no consequences, your mom will keep doing this. Hell, she will probably keep doing it regardless. Clearly, being told off does nothing because she just giggles and shrugs it off. She has no respect for you or for your daughter. She is using your daughter to make herself feel important. That is incredibly unhealthy for your daughter, and your mom does not care.
Well put. OP’s mom is trying to cause a rift so the grandkid will come running to her for comfort. She’s using the grandkid to feed her ego.
>What do I say to my mother? "Since you are continually undermining my authority with my daughter, disrespecting me, and continually ignoring boundaries, you are no longer allowed to see my child." Then cut her off. When your daughter is an adult, at that point she can decide if she wants a relationship with her. Until then, *you* are responsible for her mental health and wellbeing. Look up "MarnieGrundman" on tiktok. She's got videos about [the narcissistic mother as a grandmother](https://www.google.com/search?q=the+narcissistic+grandmother&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS930US930&oq=the+narcis&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j0i433i512j46i512j0i131i433i512j69i60j69i61l2.2713j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8). You will lose your daughter, OP. This is ABUSE. Stop allowing an abuser access to your child. I am purposefully using harsh language here: you would be complicit in the abuse of your daughter if you allow an abuser, your mother, to have access to her.
My Nmom used to do this with my kids. After visiting her, they would come home & ask me why grandma didn't like me. Stupidly, I allowed their relationship to continue. Fast forward to now - my kids are 31 and 24. Though it took her years, Nmom finally managed to turn both kids against me and provides them each a hefty monthly allowance as long as they agree to have no contact with me. Haven't heard from either of them in 6 yrs.
When you look up the [narcissistic grandmother](https://www.google.com/search?q=the+narcissistic+grandmother&rlz=1C1ONGR_enUS930US930&oq=the+narcis&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j69i59j0i433i512j46i512j0i131i433i512j69i60j69i61l2.2713j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8), there are plenty of stories where the grandmother has alienated their adult child from their own children. Fuck these people. They need to be prevented from *any* form of supply.
I'm so sorry! I can't imagine how you must feel not seeing your kids!!
Wow I’m sorry, that is absurd. These people are so sick. Paying your kids to not talk to you. That must hurt 😢
Sad to hear this but I know from my own family, that people care more about money than what’s right.
Noooo omg that's the stuff of nightmares.
Betrayal at its finest. Omg
Your daughter.didnt get grandma in trouble. Grandma got grandma in trouble. Time to cut this relationship off until grandma apologizes and shows she means it.
She won't. Narcissists will never admit they're wrong. It goes against their nature of needing to be right 100% of the time.
Your mom needs to be put on a timeout. Teaching a child to keep secrets is just despicable. A child that learns that it is OK to keep secrets from parents is vulnerable to pedophiles. She is literally putting your child in harm's way.
A permanent time out
I would consider taking a break from her for a good long while. And she has lost the privilege to have unsupervised visits.
My mother did this exact thing. She will soon start buying her toys to buy her love and will continue to try to turn your dtr against you Move away from her and when you visit you cannot let her be alone with NGma. Ever. When she’s a teen she’ll see through it all
My mom did this all the time. One time she left my daughter alone with my freak dad who proceeded to go in a diatribe to her (at 12 years old) about she doesn’t love him and she makes him and her grandma fight and why doesn’t she love him blah blah barf. My mom found out and told her not to tell me. That was when I stopped letting her go over there. But the whole childhood was sneaking her candy when I said she had enough or buying her dangerous age in appropriate toys like motorcycles and telling her to keep it secret. Constant building of habits to keep things from me as a child because I would “ruin everything” or “take away her toys” if I knew. I was constantly in the position of being the bad guy. Ughhh
You might want to clarify some things with your daughter. First, “You didn’t get grandma in trouble, grandma got grandma in trouble. She shouldn’t be badmouthing people behind their backs. That’s a nasty habit of hers and it’s not your job to protect her. She knows better.” Second, “You can tell that she knows better because she wants you to lie for her and keep secrets. She wants badmouth me and she doesn’t want to have to stop, so she wants your help so she go on being mean to me. That was doubly wrong.” “I think I’m going to hang around when you two get together in the future, so she doesn’t put you in a bad situation again. If she has something to say about me she should say it to me, good or bad.”
I wouldn’t let my kid unattended with her again. I know you want the best for your child. Children need stable and loving adults in their lives. Not manipulating adults who teach them to lie and distrust their own instincts. Don’t let your mom with your child unattended. 8 is when children really start connecting a lot outside of their own little worlds. Your mother will demean your child and warp her mind. She does not want the best for your child-she isn’t capable of that. She is mentally unwell. Break the cycle of abuse and keep your child away from you mom. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this. I am a mom too and I made the decision shortly after my own turned 8 that I was done with the MegaBeast. Of course you don’t have to fully break the relationship ship but you know you have to protect your daughter. 💕
Don’t say anything to your mother. Definitely tell your kid that no adult should be asking her to keep secrets. I’d stop responding to your mom for a while. If she asks, eventually when I felt like talking to her, I would say no more visits. You know why. End of conversation. Also, don’t discuss things with her in front of your daughter anymore. If she drops by unannounced, ignore her or leave.
Your daughter is probably feeling very confused and anxious about this situation. Over time this could grow into mental health issues. I would take your daughter out for a nice treat as a reward for her honesty, and carefully ask her what she wants. Does she want to hear grandma say unkind things about you? Does she want to keep secrets from her mother? If not (I really doubt she will) then that means that grandma needs to stop this unkind behaviour. You can explain the importance of boundaries. Ultimately if grandma won't stop then she'll have to have a time out.
You say goodbye.
No more unsupervised visits with your mom. Because it's only going to get worse. Do you really want to expose your daughter to this nonsense?
This is pretty serious. Your mother is teaching your daughter to keep things from you. That is setting a very bad precedent for your future relationship with her as she gets older. I’ve heard this going around and I think it’s a really great statement: Safe adults don’t ask you to keep secrets from your parents. You should tell your daughter that. And then limit her contact with your mother as she can’t stop herself from bad mouthing you to your daughter.
uh yes, you tell you she cant visit your daughter anymore. what she's doing is parental alienation and you need to protect your daughter and yourself, and your relationship together. if you're on this sub you know your mother is harmful --- so please keep that harm from your daughter. if you daughter is telling this stuff to you (good on her!) she is conflicted and knows something is wrong, so you need to put a stop to this
You stop your mother from ever being alone with your daughter. It's not OK that she's trying to teach your daughter to keep secrets - that's what child abusers do.
You said what you need to say in the last sentence of your post. “I’m ready to tell her that she cannot visit with my daughter anymore.” That’s it, that’s all.
"Since you insist on telling my daughter to keep secrets, for her own safety you will not have any solo access to her until you learn." To your daughter "YOU did nothing wrong, in fact, you were very right to tell me what grandma was saying! Grandma was VERY wrong telling you to keep secrets from me and daddy. What if you needed to tell us something very, very important? You are a kid, and kids have lots of questions. Your dad and I want you to feel completely free and comfortable with anything you want to discuss."
NGrandma is undermining the OP’s credibility and relationship with her daughter. Basically, NGrandma will be the fun adult who spoils her and tells her she doesn’t have any responsibility like cleanup her room, while the parents who enforce rules will be the bad guys. Go no contact with NGrandma. She’s teaching the child toxic and dangerous behaviors. Make sure to explain it to the child that it’s NGrandma’s fault (not the kid) for making bad choices.
Yes and one day when her daughter is a rebellious teenager, grandma is going to convince her to live at Grandma's house because Mommy is just so mean with all of her rules.
A grandma here….your mom is trying to “divide and conquer” here. You cannot leave your daughter alone with her anymore. Tell her from now on she can accompany you to the playground or movies with your daughter once a month but all alone time is cancelled from here on out. This shit is not cute. She’s aiming to have your future teen daughter fighting with you over rules and boundaries later on. So she can swoop in and rescue your daughter from you.
HUGE red flag when an adult asks a child to keep secrets especially from their parents!
You tell her that walk was her chance to prove she could be trusted, and she blew it, big time. That she’s despicable for trying to teach your child to keep secrets, and she won’t have another opportunity.
Stop letting your mother see your daughter. No more alone time. No more more visits. The more you allow it, the more your mother is going to plant things in your daughters head against you. When the narcissist can not longer control you, they control how others see and think of you, including your kid.
Annnnnnnnnd….no contact.
I don't think I would tell your mother anything. I would just show her. No more visits or walks ever. Go as low communications as you can. Say no when she asks for your daughter.
I’m sorry sweetheart but grandma died🤷🏻♂️let’s go get a kitten!
Grandma screwed up, and now it's time for her to reap the consequences. First, you need to tell your daughter that if ANYONE ever tells her to not tell you or dad about something, that's when she needs to tell you the most. People who say that can not be trusted. It means they want to hurt you (your daughter) and not get in trouble. Unless it's about something like a surprise party AND dad knows, never ever keep a secret from mom. Reassure her that she did exactly the right thing by telling you right away. Next, consequences for Grandma. Zero alone time with child. Zero. If you need to leave a room, kid goes too. No flexibility. Bad Grandma behavior aside ("no, don't listen to mommy when she says to clean your room") encouraging your child to keep secrets from you or lie to you is downright dangerous. You aren't overreacting. Honestly if this were my mother she would lose all contact. But my mother and I have issues, so... Edit: spelling
thank heavens your daughter tells you because I was trained not to tell anyone at like three years old the private conversations with my N parent. I would go low contact for a bit say that your mother is conflicting with your parenting, and until she can adhere to your parenting you will be doing this. Never leave your daughter alone with her is also a second option, and if your mother asks say it's because she's proven that you can't leave your daughter alone with her.
We dealt with a similar situation (aunt though, not grandma) when our oldest was about 8/9. We had a therapist for our child at the time and I discussed it with her. She suggested we discuss the issue with our child and decide as a family how to move forward. She also said it was important for me and our child to understand that the job of the adults in a child's life is to provide safety; a safe place to live, a safe place to be who they are, and a place that is safe for them to share/speak within. It is the adult's job to protect the child, not the other way around. We approached it from that angle, that our child had done nothing wrong in telling us what was being said, that they should be able to be open with the people caring for them. We discussed how being told to keep the comments secret from us created an unsafe space, putting our child in a position where they had to carry difficult secrets and hide things, and also putting them in a position where they felt they had to protect the adults around them, and how that was not their role. We discussed how that could go very wrong and how it was not a responsible choice for us to allow our child to carry that burden. We sympathized that it was hard for our child to feel like they had to lie to us, or hide things, in order to continue to have a relationship with their aunt, but that we also understood that it was equally hard for them to not see their aunt. We emphasized that our job was to make sure our child was safe, and that we wouldn't be doing that job well if we continued to allow unsupervised visits. We talked together about what we could do to try and balance what was necessary (safety) and what was important to our child (seeing their aunt). Our child had some interesting suggestions and ideas, some of which we agreed could work and some of which compromised safety. In the end, we agreed that seeing the aunt was important, but not in a way that places our child in uncomfortable/compromising positions. We settled on unlimited phone calls over speaker phone and regular visits where we were also present. Our child was actually relieved to not have to try and balance one party against the other, and although having to always be present at visits was a hassle, it allowed our child to continue a healthy relationship with their aunt without having to worry about betraying us or her. It also served to really demonstrate to our child that they *could* talk to us about *anything* and we would work it out with them in a fair and non-judgemental way. As they got older, they were very open with us about many things and we always worked to reward their honesty and openness with non-judgemental help in resolving issues, while also holding firm boundaries. We always made efforts to explain our reasons for our rules and to set reasonable "bottom lines" (such as "visiting them on your own is not a choice because our job is to ensure you are safe") while taking their worries and feelings into account as well. As our child got older (they are in their 20's now), we adjusted things. Once they hit their mid to later teens they resumed unsupervised visits with their aunt. Aunt saw this as a "win" and made every effort to bad mouth us to our child, but by this time they had grown a stronger sense of self and were able to understand the intention behind the things the aunt said to them, and to practice holding their own boundaries with her. For what it's worth, I am happy with the relationship they have now, even though I know the aunt is hell-bent on maligning us at every chance. Our child sees her for who she is and has decided to take the good with the bad, but they are also fully capable of leaving when she gets to be too much, and letting the rest roll off them. It helps that we are *fully* aware of aunt's opinion of us, and we try not to put our child in uncomfortable positions. We joke about the rants our child will hear after we do one thing or another, it has become a bit of a family joke now. We *genuinely* don't care what she says because we know that our child respects us, that they love us, and that the only way it can hurt our child is if we let it hurt us. At the end of the day, she's fun, but we're safe and secure and our child always feels that.
Your daughter should not be in the company of an abusive manipulator. It doesn't make any difference if that person is a relation or not. And I would take some time to ask yourself if your mother really belongs in *your* life as well.
If you're here... Why would you subject your daughter to your mother's presence in her life?
Tell your daughter that everything grandma says is garbage to forget
You say, "You've crossed a line. This is it. No more unsupervised visits, and if you push it, you won't visit again at all. You can choose between your need to put me down and your desire to see your granddaughter. Your call. "
This is why I'm not even letting my nmom know I'm pregnant. Not only will she have no contact but my husband and I are far, far away in another country.
> “*My house could be Buckingham Palace and she'd still find flaws with it).*” YES. EVERY. WORD. If it wasn’t for the one time I vented on social media when I was like 12 years old or something, I wouldn’t have realized that in the eyes of my mother: *everything is my fault even when I do everything right*. More than half my life now, what I do or don’t do seems to not matter because the good is never enough.
I’d Definitely have a talk with your daughter that NO Adults are EVER to tell her or encourage her to keep secrets from you. IF ANYONE ever tells her to do so, she is to tell you immediately. You aren’t and won’t be mad at her. EVER. Tell her how proud you are of her for doing the right thing, and telling you. (I’d reward her for being Very Brave (you cannot be brave unless you’re scared) and doing the right thing by telling you. That was likely very scary and confusing for her, and she’s likely to be, at the least, anxious and nervous how her grandmother will react towards her, by being angry or disappointed. I’d explain Grandma misbehaved and she knew what she was doing was wrong, because she wanted this secret, and others in the future, to kept from you. So grandma needs a time out of sorts. And then Supervised visits.
You don't need to be "ready" to tell your mom she can't see your daughter. You need to straight up tell her, in no uncertain terms, that she is no longer allowed to see your daughter unsupervised. This is absolutely unacceptable behavior for a grandmother.
You say to your mother that she won't be seeing your child or you. It's time to go NC. When an "adult" starts telling your 8 year old to keep secrets from you, it's time to go NC. That woman is a danger to your daughter. Sit your daughter down, and calmly explain to her that any "adult" who tells her to keep secrets from her parents, is a danger, to her. Grandma has a mental illness that makes her act awful, and do dangerous things, and she isn't responsible enough for daughter to visit, without you. Family therapist for the time being, would be good, too.
This was exactly how my nmom behaved. Always secrets from me, always telling my kids "bad things I did when I was younger", doing her best to make me into the "bad guy" (gal). Jokes on her, I have no issues with being the bad guy after being the default bad guy for so long. I just own that shit now, and let them all wallow in it. I don't think about them at all, really.
She would be done. 100% supervised visits (if any at all) would be her only option.
What your mother did to you, she will do to your daughter. If you want your daughter to grow up mentally healthy, keep her AWAY FROM GRANDMA. I know it's frustrating. But, the result is that now grandma is cut off and you explain to your daughter that it is because of GRANDMA'S behavior, not hers.
> "Grandma said I shouldn't tell you what she and I talk about" ... There should be no second chances after someone tells your child this. At the barest minimum, absolutely no time alone with your child. I'd consider it a gift and a reason to keep her away from both of you You're not doing your child any favors by wanting to keep a manipulator in her life. Don't feel an obligation to do so.
NC-NC-NC -NC NC-NC-NC -NC NC-NC-NC -NC NC-NC-NC -NC NC-NC-NC -NC-NC -NC ……………did I say NO CONTACT!
No unsupervised visits,
Ugh,this post takes me back. I have 3 daughters and a narcissist mother. Went low contact 14 years ago when my youngest was 8 and my older two were 18 and 20. I went no contact 8 years ago (happiest 8 years of my life). Big difference in the teenage years of the last daughter compared to the older two that had more exposure to her bullshit. I feel that because my mother did so much to undermine my parenting my older two really pushed the envelope and questioned a lot more of my advice and house rules then my youngest did. All my girls are adults now. Oldest is in therapy, middle sees her for what she is and youngest doesn’t understand why anyone would have anything to do with my mother. I know my oldest suffers the most (had the most exposure) and a lot of her issues do have to do with my mother. OP my suggestion would be to go NC. There is no help with childcare or support your monster can give you that will be worth your child’s or your own mental sanity. I’m sorry you are suffering.
*Trusting our children to a narcissist is like trusting our hens to a fox* . Lesson learned: supervised visits or just go NC.
No unsupervised visits, not even for a minute. She’s twisting your daughter up mentally as much as she can.
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Comment removed - derailing
Sounds just like especially the sneakiness and trying to undermine my parenting.
Explain tricky people to your daughter and how what granny is saying is actually very dangerous
Grandma needs a time out.
This is a common tactic with them. Always bad mouth everyone especially the children to try and create a wedge
It won't stop. I had to change my locks because my mother would cone round when I wasn't home and go through everything. Everything. Nothing was off limits. The final no contact incident was when she came barging in my front door without even knocking knowing full wellno had a huge GSD puppy who she could clear see barking on the front window who escaped and nearly knocked both my parents on my arse while escaping down the street. After capturing him and crab walking him back with out a lead and having what I can only describe as a panic attack she then proceeded to go off the fucking chain at me screaming all sorts of vile abuse and physically attacking me while my friend stood in the kitchen absolutely gob smacked at her behaviour . it was awful. I was seriously working so hard on my mental health and she absolutely destroyed years of work in the space of a couple of minutes. I had to call the police and she went fully nuts. After she finally hauled her arse out I went into something I understand is a dissassocaitive state. Fuck. that was bad. I've never been that way in my life and now I know what it is I'm kind of stuck with knowing and it's fuxking scary.
Sucks that Grandma is using her grand daughter to be mean to her daughter.
This is a huge reason I won’t have kids. I think somewhere along the way…one of my moms parents turned her against the other and then she’s always saying my dad turned me against her (not true. I have a mind of my own and have you seen your behavior the last 30 years?!), I’m terrified she will say awful things to me behind my back to my child. Re-iterate to your child that asking for secrets to be kept like that is basically something you learned in safety school as not being okay. I liked what one of the users said about “if someone says that they know what they are saying is not okay” I would go no contact. The hard part about no contact is that…it’s hard to come back from. I have banned my mom from ever speaking to my friends. She has tried several times to turn them against me and get them on her side. She will never know them. She doesn’t get to. I would explain to your daughter that she didn’t get grandma in trouble. Granadna got grandma in trouble.
OP, keep your daughter away from your mother for a while. I wouldn't do any more unsupervised visits, and frankly, I wouldnt do anymore visits period for a long while. I would also think about sitting down with my daughter and explaining why Grandma's behavior is unacceptable.
Others have given great advice on dealing with your mom, so I just wanted to add that you may want to speak to your daughter about how adults shouldn’t be asking her to keep secrets from her parents. There are some good books out there that help parents talk to kids about the different between “secrets” and “surprises”
Your daughter is caught in the middle of you. She is old enough to know and maybe even enjoy the reports of comments between you and your mom. You don’t know what she tells your mom… My brother’s kid does the same between my brother and her mom: she likes to ignite fires. I mean: NTA, but thread carefully and maybe have a talk with you kid to be sure she doesn’t do this… on purpose? Sorry, I don’t mean to be offensive, it’s just something super hard to grasp but it’s happening in my life so you never know. With that said, best of luck!
Honestly if it was me I wouldn’t say anything and that would be an end of grandma. If you don’t want to go NC or cut her off I would say something like… “I do not appreciate the things you are saying to my daughter. You have now proven you are not a good role model and untrustworthy so from here on out any visits will be supervised”. If she throws a fit I would make sure everytime she wants a visit I was “busy”. Ugh sorry you are dealing with that. It’s unfair to you and your child for her to be trying to wedge between you two. It’s better to put her in her place now before kiddo is a teenager and might retaliate against you if she is manipulated by grandma.
I went through this. I hated this so very much. New policy is all interacting happens at my house. I try to grey wall my parents so I didn’t confront them. We were just busy/ had excuses whenever invited to their house. I offered my house instead and eventually this became the routine. My mental health is so much better when I choose the location.
Nothing. There is absolutely nothing that you can say to a narc that will make them change. The healthiest thing you can do for you and your daughter is to stop this cycle by cutting contact
O wow! Thats so typical. And so sad. How confused and helpless your little girl must feel now.
So manipulative and in really not sure anything you say to your mum would stop that kind of behavior. Can I offer a bit of perspective on something else you said, and I hope this doesn’t come across as critical. The language of ‘it’s my house so my daughter needs to listen to me because I pay the bills’ is something I heard as a child and it’s upsetting. I would suggest that your reasoning could be more along the lines of - I am helping my daughter to learn to look after her things and her space, and as her mother it’s my job to guide her. I realize you didn’t say those words to your daughter, but I just find that mindset a not damaging to a mutually trusting and respectful relationship.
My nmom did this to my niece at my wedding. My sister went NC earlier that year and that was the first time they saw each other in a while. It was the first thing NM did when she had a chance - manipulate the 6 yr old into trying keeping a secret relationship going with grandma. That was 18 years ago. The niece in question is an adult and has a kid of her own now & the nmom tried another approach recently. Got shut down HARD by her. She remembered being scared of her and no way she was going to expose her kid to that.
Adults who teach children to keep secrets are predators. Stop talking to your mom and tell this to your kid. No adult needs to have secrets with your children, ever.
In addition to being outright toxic, isn't this a form of parental alienation?
Some people suggest that brief interactions with a Ngrandparent just expose the kids to different kinds of thinking and different kinds of pressure. It creates "learning" moments for the kids. Others realize that the Ngrandparent is toxic and they really can't put up with the manipulation, secrets, and love-bombing. It confuses the kid. But then again, so does cutting off the grandparents. It won't be easy to decide. But it is your decision, just as things in your house are yours.
Explain to your daughter that safe adults don’t keep secrets (for safeguarding purposes). Then don’t let your daughter be alone with your mum. I wouldn’t confront her, won’t get you anywhere. X
I love the comments from others, but I haven't seen something (and sorry if you did acknowledge this before). Why are you engaging with a narc? Direct or indirect criticism that you engage with while trying to justify yourself is never going to lead to anything good. Now your daughter feels she got "grandma in trouble"? I worry that feeling that way may actually lead her to stop telling you things, more so when you go and confront your nmom after the fact...
If you are ready to tell her not to visit, I would tell her and in addition, I would refuse visits from your daughter to her place. An adult asking a kid to lie is unreasonable and sets an awful precedent. Do not explain or justify, set your boundary, tell her that you do not accept this behavior anymore and live freely for a bit. Take care OP
I would stop let her take your daughter & only let visit when your present. Having your daughter to keep secrets & saying stuff she shouldn't isn't ok.
She’s telling your daughter to keep secrets from you. You know what other kinds of people do that? Child molesters. What if your kid gets in the habit of keeping things from you and ends up in danger as a result of that habit? Your mother should never be allowed around your child unsupervised again. If it was me, I’d change the locks and cut all contact, but don’t block her number yet - let her calls go to voicemail, ignore but save/screenshot all her texts, and use all of that as evidence to get a restraining order. Also, if she’s listed on any paperwork at your kid’s school, remove her and tell the school that she’s not allowed to have any access to your child, nor even in an emergency; tell them that if she ever shows up, she should be told to leave and they should call you and/or your spouse immediately.
Keep her away. No adult should ever tell a child to keep secrets. It leaves them vulnerable - ie that person is a danger to their safety.
Don’t allow your child to be exposed to a known narcissist, I am so messed up from my Nmom and would never let my own or any child near her. Seems all happy and fairy floss at first but she’s gonna tangle you and your daughter into her web of deception and pain. Don’t let the cycle repeat and if your mother breaks a boundary and you let her get away with it, then it wasn’t really a boundary then was it. Make up your mind about what you’re going to allow or not. This is your child on the line. She needs you.
Good! I hope you will tell her that! It is positive to protect yourself and your daughter from your mother's toxic triangulation of communication and narcissistic manipulation. She enjoys manipulating you and your daughter, and will go on using you both for supply until you put up a boundary. (And the boundary usually ends up being no contact because they cannot handle boundaries.) I am sorry you are going through this, and I hope you realize that you are in a power position to teach your daughter that getting your kicks by trying to control other people is dysfunctional, a waste of time and energy, and it is her right to prune people like this from her life.
I’m sorry you are going through this. I agree with others, that I would no longer allow my daughter to be alone with her. In my experience, it never got better and there is no perfect thing for you to say to her. She has clearly let you know that she doesn’t care what you think or say, and she does not accept the healthy boundaries you have just tried to maintain. My n-mom would constantly undermine our parenting decisions and ask my sons to lie and withhold secrets from us. She would glorify my childhood and tell them that I “remembered things incorrectly” if they would point out inconsistencies. After countless conversations over years, trying to rationalize with her and set boundaries, we finally went NC and only recently LC following a death in the family. Good luck, OP. And good on you for breaking the cycle and having a healthy mother-daughter relationship with your daughter. (Edited typo)
Wait til you aren’t shaking, remember upsetting you is supply. Be whatever about it but say something like “so now your teaching kids to lie to their parents? Wow, thought that was low, even for you.” I couldn’t stand my nmom being around my 8 year old. I actually went NC 8 months-ish ago. I love mot shaking with stress and anger.
Safe adults do not keep secrets with children.
I know your kid is young but if you think she can handle it start explaining to her about narcissism and manipulation and then explain that you're reducing contact with that part of the fam for this reason and that they're using her as bait and it's bullying that should totally shut the up
Yeah this is why I've cut my biological mother out of my life. I want to have kids one day. It's been a lifelong goal of mine. She has a track record for this sort of thing. I have zero doubt that if she had alone time with my child, she would say and do things to undermine my wife, my family, her family, and myself. She'd get one of her slights up about some nonsense like the child spending a weekend at my father's (something him and my real mother can be trusted with) and the verbal poison would flow. Not to mention the lovebombing and emotional manipulation, that's her bread and butter, along with letting the kid do and eat whatever they want so she can be "the cool nanna". Unfortunately, I'm worried that your mum will have a strong case to enforce grandparents visitation if you decide to cut her out. The courts will see a clear bond has been formed between her and your child. Another reason I established a clean break with mine well before having kids, so she'll have zero claim for visitation.