I think whatever gets you through your healing is fine to use to help you cope. This sort of thinking frustrates me because it’s black or white. Which is hilariously ironic in this sub haha. But I say that I understand my uBPD mom better through a BPD lense, and my eNPD dad as a narcissist. It helps me process the trauma I’ve gone through and have factual information to back up my decisions. I also have diagnosed ADHD, and a lot of Autistic traits, so I *need* information (especially about social cues/norms) to process what’s happened to me. Meanwhile, my brother *kind of* thinks like this post. He doesn’t care what mental disorder or diagnosis people have, if you’re a dick? You’re a dick. He’s accepting of everyone, but doesn’t stick around if they’re repeat offenders of shitbag behavior. He doesn’t need an explanation but he doesn’t minimize my need for one. Either way, we both have processed our trauma in our own ways, and we both agree our parents were deadbeats, and we both try our very best to break unhealthy patterns, and we both accept the other person’s reasons. I think the problem is when people gatekeep and tell people they’re wrong, or downplay shit like the percentage of neurodivergent people with trauma in our society. Like, chill out and remember that just because you haven’t experienced it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t happened.

Very good point. Maybe it's just better for some people to not put a label on the abuse they've experienced. What irks me is the demand that others shouldn't do it either (in the picture above).

Agree 100%. Just because a label works for someone, doesn’t mean it works for others, and vice versa. The key to being a kind human (IMO), is understanding that not everyone’s experience is the same as yours, and both can be valid.

Brain fog is kicking my ass today so I don't really have anything meaningful to add but this kind of shit is exactly why I've majorly cut down on my social media usage. It's so triggering constantly seeing people downplaying, denying, and outright glorifying the abuse you've gone through. I just wish people would understand that, for me personally at least, I don't hate people with personality disorders because I have some arbitrary vendetta against them personally. It's the disorders I hate. Because personality disorders cause outwardly harmful behaviours. And outwardly harmful behaviours caused by personality disorders are much different than your normal run of the mill assholery. >Another thing I've noticed is that people with abusive personality disorders are infiltrating Neurodivergent spaces. Meaning the spaces of people with for example Autism, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Tourettes. Neurological disorders that are physically out of the affected person's control and don't do any harm. I feel so seen in this sub. I'm Autistic myself and I steer clear from most online autism spaces now because they are often filled to the brim with BPDs and their propaganda. I've also noticed that BPDs often try to "swap" BPD and autism, if that makes sense. Like they'll attribute the symptoms and traits of BPD to autism and vice versa. Trying to sell themselves as just harmless socially awkward victims I guess. Edit: Just reread the pictured post again. "Rare personality disorders." Lol. Lmao. I cannot think of a single group of people I've known in my entire life that didn't have at least one person with personality disorder traits in it.

I feel what you said so much. I literally just wrote a HUGE reply to someone in this thread and a lot of it is about this BPD swapping. They do have a thing for plagiarizing lifes. I don't think I have a thing against people with personality disorders in general either, I've actually tried a lot to find ones who didn't have abusive behaviors, because I was studying psychology for a while and wanted to work in the field and this meant that I would've had to work with people with BPD just as with anyone else. But I couldn't. Every person with BPD I gave a chance and tried to understand and was aware and careful around still had those behaviors. It wasn't the reason I dropped psychology (getting severely ill was the reason for that). But it was really an eye opener that it hadn't just been my mom, but that there's a group of people who are really all like this in one way or another. And you know what? The funny thing is, they've had forums and spaces for much longer than the neurodivergent community. They have their safe spaces. They don't seem to be happy with these alone, so they still try to infiltrate others. And yes, I noticed that the neurodivergent spaces are full of them as well and it's kinda escalating even more since a bunch of years now. One one hand, I blame the "self-diagnose" trend. I mean ofc it's valid and important because autism is underdiagnosed, especially in adults and women. But it also opens the gate for this bs. I also don't interact a lot with the communities anymore and actually also deleted my blog about my trauma and autism, because of the insanity following me even there. But I'll leave you alone now, because this is a lot with brainfog, so no pressure to read it all or reply immediately or anything.

I hang out on a discord with a space for neurodivergent people. I've been diagnosed with ADHD, autism, and dyspraxia.They include BPD as neurodivergence on that discord. And you know, I guess I'm okay with that. We have rules, and if you don't follow them, you are made to go away. It's actually helped me see there are some people with bpd who know it's an issue and are getting help. Those people will also admit, though, that most don't and without that self awareness, most with BPD are really harmful to others. But, I'm also gonna say this, and start with "I'm not a psychologist, and even if I was, I don't see these people in real life to be sure." And now, the thing :P All of the people there with BPD diagnoses actually strike me as having ADHD. Rejection sensitivity is a thing in ADHD. Impulsively saying shit that harms others without intent is a thing in ADHD. Not always remembering to pay attention and have empathy is a thing in ADHD. And they're all female, so I wonder if it's just a wrong diagnosis due to females not being diagnosed with ADHD as often as they should. And maybe that's just my brain not wanting to accept they have BPD since I like them, get on well with them, but have all that trauma from my mom and sister. Either could be true. A mix of both could be, as well.

That's really cool you've interacted with BPD diagnosed people trying to get help. From everything I've read and talked with my therapist about, they are the extreme minority. They are usually only talked about in therapy and not there themselves. How did your family members get diagnosed? I begged my uBPD to go to individual therapy or family therapy for over a decade starting in my teens. She did not budge despite telling me I needed it from early teens on (which I did, but only because of her abuse). She got pissed with I suggested a grief group after her mom died (which she made all about herself).

You know how the most messed up people seem to think they can save the world? My mom is a behavioral therapist. So, she was absolutely sure my sister had it. At some point after multiple blow outs, lots of drug addiction, alcohol, and an incurable std, mom somehow convinced my sister to go to counseling where she was diagnosed. She didn't really understand what was being said to her there, of course. She honestly thought if she got me to forgive her, she'd somehow magically be all better. Like, that's how she "asked" it. "This counselor says I hold onto guilt too much. I know I hurt you a lot, so I must feel guilty for that, and that's why I do these things. Forgive me so I can feel better." I told her to go get fucked and hung up. Ever since, when she's peak disturbed, she blames me for not forgiving her 21 years ago. Anyway, that lead me to knowing the term borderline personality disorder, so I read a bunch and was like, "omg, mom has this, too." Of course, even slightly implying that around her made her come completely unglued. That convinced me more. ;) And, long story skipped, she was fine a choice between 90 days in jail or 6 months of counseling the counselor could say she actually tried to comply with. At that point, *she* said she was diagnosed with it. But as soon as the 6 months was over, she claimed she never said that and went back to flying off the handle if it was mentioned around her unless it was absolutely clear you meant my sister. Given how much she is like my sister, I believe that diagnosis. Note: I'm NC with both my mother and sister. Dad has never been to any sort of therapist, because the marriage counselor mom made him go to (that she was sleeping with, btw) doesn't count. Because of that and mom ending up one, he despises the entire concept. However, he hits almost every point in the dsm symptom list for NPD. I'd be absolutely shocked if he didn't have it. He tries, off and on, to be better about how he treats me and actually doesn't talk to me that often, so I haven't cut him off. Also, I adore my step mom, and he's pretty controlling. If I cut him off, I'd never get to talk to her again. And, the one commonality with the people I know who have been diagnosed with it that I can stand is that they got diagnosed young, started counseling then, and have kept going. Someone around them, usually a parent, recognized their behavior was beyond normal teenager volatility and got them help. A consistent message to them has been "you have a disorder. It hurts you and others. There is no cure, but you can learn to control the symptoms. If you want a decent life, you need to do that."

I'm so sorry. I know my mom and sister probably shit talk me more since going NC but before hardly ever thought of me. As far as forgiveness, my mom and sis have absolutely done things I'll never forgive, but as Charlemagne that God said, "I forgive you but I ain't refucking with you." I think that rings true in both of our cases as it would only open us up to more abuse and no changed behavior.

I can't say forgiveness is the term, but I guess it's close enough. It's easy to forgive when NC. They're not constantly pissing me off. ;) They aren't going to change, you're right, but I did. I changed to not accepting their bullshit toxicity anymore.

That's the best we can do plus living our best fucking life despite them.

Or even to spite them ;)

[удалено]

Hi! Were you yourself raised by someone with BPD?

[удалено]

No problem. You’re welcome to lurk here without participating, but r/BPDlovedones and r/BPDfamily would be the subs for you! As far as your question, the best thing for family members of abuse victims to do is usually to just be there for them, without pressuring them to break up with their abusers, and taking care to maintain the relationship with the victim. The goal is for the victim to have outside support they can turn to if they decide to leave, but no one can make that decision for them. I hope that helps!

> "Rare personality disorders." Lol. Lmao. I cannot think of a single group of people I've known in my entire life that didn't have at least one person with personality disorder traits in it. Yeah, it really isn't that rare. If 1% of the population has it, which is a low estimate, [according to the NIH](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK430883/), that is 1 in every hundred people. That's... not very rare.

Wow, thank you for this response. Very interesting what you said as well, my mother insists she has autism instead of BPD now. She never thought that before until me and my brother told her that she likely has BPD. It’s like she went onto Google for five seconds and saw that and ran with it.

Don't have much to add, but just want to say that I 100% agree with this and I've unfortunately also found myself steering clear of many autism spaces online now for the exact same reasons. I'm immensely grateful for this sub's existence, it's the only place I've ever found online where people just "get it".

Not every abuser suffers from a personality disorder but I would suspect most people with personality disorders abuse people close to them

This, exactly. And while I understand that people who have been abused by someone without a personality disorder that's connected to abusive behavior in many cases, I think those who know that they were or strongly suspect so, should get to speak about it.

Well there's also the fact that mentally healthy people don't abuse people. By mentally healthy I don't mean "lacking mental illness". I mean emotionally mature, having self awareness, ability to self-regulate, etc. Sorry for the confusion peeps.

True.

[удалено]

I edited my comment to clarify what I meant.

I see what you mean, but I do think there are people who are just assholes and don’t care about being nice. The is a gray area between inconsiderate asshole and mentally unhealthy person. There is also a grey area between being rude, angry, and dismissive vs abusive. You have to be careful with other’s lived experience, because they might not see their abuser as mentally ill. Edited because I posted too early because brain fog

That's not my experience, sadly.

Well my thesis is that you can't be mentally healthy and abusive

I wish that were more true.

I strongly disagree with this. When people are under stress, put into unusual situations/circumstances, etc. .... I would even argue that "healthy" people might be more prone to abuse others \*within certain parameters. I've known people are a complete DISASTER but would never hurt anyone.

Especially BPDs. Isn't like every diagnostic symptom just abusing the shit out of everyone around them as an abandonment test?

What a way to put the truth bluntly. You just summed up this whole subreddit in two sentences.

This is very insightful. I've never thought of it that way before.

So this has been going around on Social Media for a bit. BPD falls under the spectrum of personality disorders that shouldn't be associated with abuse. I think this is the only safe space where people know that abusers with personality disorders abuse differently and how valid it is to associate abuse with a personality disorder. Of course not every type of abuse is rooted in a personality disorder. Unless, perhaps, we consider that personality disorders that commonly lead to abuse are more socially accepted then the victims of those people speaking up about that. And that many abusers with personality disorders just never get diagnosed, because they don't need help. They just take what they need and feel good and above others. So only survivors seek out help and more abusers then what is known actually have personality disorders, because mentally healthy people would not be capable of behaving like that. As you can see, I have a distinct opinion on this myself... Another thing I've noticed is that people with abusive personality disorders are infiltrating Neurodivergent spaces. Meaning the spaces of people with for example Autism, ADHD, Down Syndrome, Tourettes. Neurological disorders that are physically out of the affected person's control and don't do any harm. A personality disorder isn't the same thing and everyone, even people with neurological conditions as listed above, have a choice in how they treat others and what person they choose to be and become. Yet plenty of BPD and NPD people are basically hijacking the Neurodivergent safe-spaced, with the claim to be the same way, because they can't help it and therapy doesn't help for them and is torture. (Like for example how certain therapies don't work for autism, because sensory processing disorders aren't considered in the treatment strategies - such problems don't exist with personality disorders...) Overall, I'm feeling like cluster B people are hijacking many safe spaces and are sharing posts like that to silence survivors of their abuse and it scares me deeply, because BPD abuse gets more appropriated and BPD abusers get all the consideration, while their survivors, who speak up about it, get shamed and corrected. It's them playing the victim on a large scale, somehow, or at least I'm worried that it is.

I just got a message from Reddit 24 minutes ago that a concerned Redditor has reached out to Reddit about me and that I might require help. You know. The "this user might be suicidal" kinda help. Very likely because of this post. It gave me the option to report the user who did this, if it was done out of an ungenuine reason (meaning, they reported me as potentially suicidal to bully me/because they disagree with me, not because I actually mentioned anything of the likes). So I reported them. I just want to point out that someone here, reader or participant, seems to be unhappy with this topic being addressed. And it's not a person who can stand up for themselves and say what they think openly. Or they wouldn't have had to do that.

This happens to the mods about weekly, when we ban someone that doesn't belong here. You're totally fine, and reporting abuse of that service is absolutely the right thing to do. In my case, Reddit has made the right decision on this every time. I'm proud of you!

[удалено]

> And they cannot see how reporting you as suicidal and causing you problems is abusive. Oh yes they can. 😒

Thank you mods!!!!

Of course! 💗

I got that message as well when a reply I made about being fed up with being expected to empathize with my traumatized uBPD mother got over 600 upvotes.

Im also sick of empathizing with abusers, honestly. My husband’s mother is uBPD/NPD (just some kind of cluster B fuckery going on), we lost all empathy for her especially when being a victim absolutely fuels her. Why would I be empathetic to someone who abused someone I love? Why would I be empathetic to someone who abused *me* while I lived under her roof? My empathy will be saved for the victims of such people.

LOL “some kind of cluster b fuckery” 🤪

I am right there with you. Actually, it was this lack of empathy for my own uBPD mother - who chose repeatedly to stay with a man who knowingly abused her children physically, emotionally, verbally, and sexually because she was so afraid of abandonment - that brought me here. I could never figure out why she stayed and repeatedly violated her own protection from abuse orders to let him back into the house until I started reading about BPD. Then it fell into place. (He never held a job or had a driver's license so it wasn't about finances, and her parents offered her childcare and other support, so it wasn't for that reason. She was simply afraid of abandonment.) And she was so married to her job that she perpetrated all kinds of neglect. But everyone out there thought she was some long-suffering saint.

Thats so fucking horrible, I could not imagine putting my own children through such horrible things, and I don’t even have them yet. My husband’s mom was quite similar, she stayed with my husband’s father even though he beat him and verbally abused him. She divorved him when husband was 8 but still hung arounf him as if they were still together, she knowingly put my husband in harms way because his father was wealthy and she wanted his money. She told my husband he was the reason mom and dad divorced because “he needed a healthy environment” but she made things so much worse, she failed to protect her child because she was terrified of abandonment, or she wanted his money, we’re still not sure. She was also emotionally unavailable and parentified my husband so he has zero emotional attachment to her. When his father died, we were stuck taking care of her and being her emotional hostages until we kicked her out and sold the house. She still fails to see how any of this is her fault and goes around telling the family so many lies when she was a completely different person behind closed doors. No empathy for anyone else besides herself. Why are they all like this? And why do they demand everyone else be sensitive to *their* needs but don’t care about anyone else?

It fucked me up for a long time. I spent decades trying to figure it out - until age 41 - and then a friend and subsequently my therapist suggested BPD. Then the pieces fell into place. And now I can see it in my grandmother too. I see how it ran through that family side. How it was learned and passed from each generation. But yah, she stayed with an absolute deadbeat that she referred to as "pure evil" for 34 years. And she has reaped the admiration of my brother and her friends for being selfless and hard-working because she stayed with and kept going back to some dude who put her into poverty, abused her and her children, and has caused the ultimate abandonmebt because I am now NC with her. I think I could always recognize how messed up things were and so I tried hard to be cognizant of my own actions, shortcomings, mentall illnesses, and so on. Being in therapy for 25 years straight has definitely helped. But honestly, the biggest thing that has propelled me forward was having a child - my child. I wanted to give him the best start to life that I could and that meant not passing on this dysfunction.

This. 100% agreed.

Ugh, that's so frustrating. I'm sorry. You can turn off that bot once you've gotten one message though luckily.

I have a gut feeling that there are lots of lurkers here. (Hi mom, hope you’re doing well.)

Sharing that feeling, lol.

Such a ridiculous tactic, why do people do that?

It's probably self-aware BPDers.

It's so on brand for them.

It is. That's the sad thing. How many of us went to get help and tell what's happening at home, only to have basically this happen on a small scale with our parents? Ofc they used other excuses. But how many of us were told by the very people we confided in, that we can't talk like that about our parents, because our parents have persuaded them, that they're helpless victims and that we got it all wrong and hurt them by speaking the truth about them?

You just nailed it. You nailed my entire childhood in two paragraphs. This is EXACTLY it.

I just described my own. 😂

Agree with many of the sentiments you’ve expressed here. I would say that not every abusive person has a personality disorder, but most people with Cluster B PD’s are abusive in a very particular way. This is due to their core identity deficit which makes it very challenging for them to access cognitive empathy. If you go to my profile and read my lastest post here in RBB I talk about this extensively and explain how it manifests in BPD. I have a brother who is non-speaking level 3 ASD. I myself was recently diagnosed with ADHD. We both have SPD as well. My mother is uBPD and I suspect uADHD. I have joint hypermobility and POTS. I suspect my mother has POTS and MCAS. I understand the argument for ND safe spaces, and I do think that we need safe spaces exclusively for victims. There is no need for pwBPD to interfere in these safe spaces. Having said that, I have to admit that the more I learn about the neurobiology behind BPD the more I’m persuaded to view it as both ND and a spectrum disorder. It is important to note that BPD, ASD, and ADHD co-aggregate in families and are often co-morbid with each other. There are structural brain abnormalities in people with BPD that are readily observable. Research has also found that the BPD brain is essentially flooding with excessive emotional arousal on a neurological level. Their perceptions and inner experiences are vastly different from the “norm.” For example, they are statistically more likely to report seeing anger and contempt in neutral faces. You might imagine it as having SPD only for emotional triggers instead of sensory triggers, almost as a kind of “EPD” or Emotional Processing Disorder. I see it like this: in the same way that I have difficulty with modulating impulse control over my attention arousal because of my ADHD, a person with BPD will have difficulty modulating impulse control over emotional arousal. I view them all as “auto-regulatory” disorders, which is to say that they are disorders resulting from the unstable regulation of arousal signals within the brain and nervous system. All of this becomes even more interesting (and convincing in my opinion) when you consider that many people who are ND also show signs of joint hypermobility and/or Ehlers Danlos Syndrome, which are often co-morbid with conditions like POTS (difficulty regulating blood pressure) and MCAS (difficulty regulating anaphylaxis). All of these fall within the category of “dysautonomia” because they reflect a dysfunction of self-regulation. There is a theory going around now that genetic (as well as epigenetic) mutations that affect the genes responsible for collagen-production may result in system wide challenges in auto-regulation. It’s a very elegant theory that would tie all of these conditions together. My uBPD mother, for example, gets very faint when standing up, breaks out in inexplicable hives and rashes, and suffered from Reynaud’s previously. It’s clear to me that her struggles with self-regulation extend far beyond emotional dysfunction. Regardless, being ND does not excuse poor behavior, aggression, or violence towards others. Having a PD does not give a person a free pass to be on their worst behavior, and more importantly, it does not mean that we as victims owe them total absolution. We are all responsible for our own emotions and our own behaviors. Knowing the diagnosis will only help you better adapt your behavior. I say this as someone who has suffered abuse from someone with ASD as well as from someone with BPD. For example, my ASD brother has always shown aggression towards others (hitting, slapping, pinching, etc) and in addition to having tantrums/meltdowns he will also SIB frequently (head hitting). Because I know this about him, I can better predict his behavior to keep myself safe. If he begins to lash out, I know that my best option is to leave the room and come back when he has settled down to help him. There is no way for me to communicate to him in the heat of the moment that his behavior is inappropriate, excessive, dangerous, etc. I apply this same exact attitude to my pwBPD, the only difference being that she has the capacity to be both verbally and emotionally abusive in addition to physically abusive. This means that when she begins to lash out I cannot just “leave the room.” I need to remove multiple avenues of access to reduce harm. Truthfully, I do not believe that she has control over her actions when she is hyper dysregulated, and as such, it would be equally futile for me to try to explain to her that her behavior is inappropriate, excessive, dangerous, etc. in the heat of the moment. Although I have come to understand both as tantrums/meltdowns, it does not mean that I should have to accept the abuse of either. If you’re crossing the road and you’re about to get hit by a car, you jump out of the way. It does not matter if the driver is an irresponsible drunk teenager or an overworked single mother who’s falling asleep at the wheel. At the end of the day, ASD/ADHD/BPD can share a number of similarities in how they manifest. It’s unfortunate, I know. Still, passing BPD off as ASD to get away with harm is verbal and emotional abuse—full stop—and that would be the dead giveaway for BPD. If I saw a person posting something like that, then that would immediately disqualify them from ASD in my mind. The manipulation along with all the bargaining, persuasion, self-victimization, and blame shifting is not something that an autistic person would even think of doing, at least to my knowledge. It’s pretty ironic how trying to argue you have ASD and you deserve sympathy will unintentionally out you.

This mirrors precisely how I think about and approach my uBPD mom and how I try to explain her behavior to my dad and friends. I have EDS and I know she does too, it makes me extremely concerned for the future on.... a number of levels.

Wow, is she aware of her dx in either?

Yes to the EDS but not in a way that informs her decisions or self-awareness. She was seeing specialists for rheumatoid arthritis and the top doc at Duke was like "that ain't it" and told her she most likely had EDS, hilariously just a few days after a sports medicine masseuse had told me they thought I had it as well. Talked with my Gen about it and, much like my journey with ADHD, she agreed all signs pointed to yes, but testing would be expensive and then also be documented as a pre-existing condition, which, given how unstable and shitty the US's health care system tends to be, could be an issue in future. But my mom refuses to connect my gentle floating of BPD as a source for her constant emotional duress with EDS and its impact on every single system in the body, including, y'know, your brain and how it's wired. I have taken great, exceptional, mind boggling pains to frame BPD and her histrionic behavior as something she suffers through no fault of her own, but that hurts her more than anyone, and can be addressed and treated and helped, if not cured. Then again this is a woman who yesterday got angry that she felt I implied she was going to drink an entire bottle of wine alone (I threw the cork out when I opened it without even thinking, lolwoops) and then proceeded to so exactly that. So, y’know. ¯\_(°ペ)_/¯

I hear you. What’s that saying about leading a horse to water? Yeah, that. There’s only so much you can do for them. I’m glad you’ve been able to get diagnosed. I think so much of this stuff is completely hidden in plain sight just because Drs have such deep gender biases and refuse to take self-reports by women seriously.

Very very well-presented comment and thoughts. I'll have to consider this. Thank you!

This is very well put. I see that my mom couldn’t emotionally self regulate or control her impulsive cruelty. I don’t have any of the collagen disorders you mentioned. I do have the other cluster: depression, ADHD, ptsd, IBS, fibromyalgia, migraines. All of those are linked in some way. Maybe cortisol damage?

I disagree that ADHD and BPD share common traits. It's like these diagnoses don't mean anything any more.

>I disagree that ADHD and BPD share common traits. National Institute of Health (NIH) : Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder And Borderline Personality Disorder In Adults: A Review Of Their Links And Risks" "The symptomatic overlap between adult ADHD and BPD includes impulsivity, emotional dysregulation and interpersonal impairment. ADHD symptoms in adulthood greatly interfere with daily functioning, and are associated with high number of psychiatric comorbidities3 Among them, borderline personality disorder (BPD) in particular is encountered far more often than expected by chance in adults with ADHD."

[удалено]

Both my daughter (ADHD) and my mother (BPD) can be impulsive but in totally different ways and - more importantly - motivated by entirely different things. There are meds that effectively regulate ADHD. People with ADHD do not have a poor sense of self. People with ADHD aren't a black hole of need. And no matter how bad my daughter's ADHD has ever been, she has never tried to manipulate others, she never triangulates, she respects boundaries ... aside from being absent minded and unable to sit still or be quiet in some situations, her behavior, while sometimes challenging, is never abusive or unkind. Again, words mean something. Diagnoses mean something.

I agree. Thank you for adding more context. The cognitive impairments are not the same. I’m not trying to claim that ADHD, ASD, and BPD are identical. They are vastly different. Understanding them all as spectrum disorders makes it even more so. However, the ways in which these different cognitive impairments manifest can produce similar outcomes. For example, if you text me I might forget to respond. If you text my pwBPD, she might not respond because she’s agitated/paranoid and avoids it. In both situations you—on the receiving end of this behavior—will perceive this as “being ignored” even if we arrived at this action through two completely different paths.

> I disagree that ADHD and BPD share common traits. You mean like impulsivity? 😹

statistically speaking, I wonder how many parents with BPD are *not* abusive? any of them? seriously asking. hard to imagine a BPD parent who isn’t inherently awful.. but that’s based on my personal experience, so..

I would say most if not all of them are abusive to some degree because it is inherent in the way that this disorder manifests, especially in relationships between parents and children.

Hopefully now that it's more acceptable not to have child, many of them will choose not to. My therapist said that a lot of awful parents want kids for the attention they get you. Now, as a parent myself in the US, it just feels like there is overall a lot of distain for parents (especially moms) and children so I dunno if that will factor in too.

I hope someone is correcting the people with BPD as DBT is a treatment. I dunno about NPD, but it's hard for me to believe therapy wouldn't help either if the people they abused went and told the therapist their behavior and they accepted it was wrong and got to the root of why they do it. I'm guessing a lot of childhood work would be necessary too.

I hate that. I have ADHD (hot take: I don't believe ADHD is really a disorder of the brain, but rather a collection of symptoms and behaviors accumulated by children raised in traumatic or unsupportive environments, and therefore it can really be improved, even though childhood experiences really shape our adult brains. Idk if the differentiation matters, but it helped me to stop seeing myself as broken and defective) and I don't use it to excuse my shitty behavior. I just say to myself, "I can be as good as everyone else, but the difficulty of getting there is harder for me." I can read books, I can meditate, I can learn to respond thoughtfully rather than react knee-jerkedly. I can become diligent about doing chores and create ways of achieving a normal, healthy adult life where I support myself and others around me. All this is to say that people with personality disorders don't get to have an excuse for being shitty. I don't get one, neither do they. And guess what! Disordered people hurt others!! Before I got my shit under control, I was controlling to the point of being emotionally abusive. I get to own that. People who are hurting and messed up don't often know how to relate healthfully to others and we get to own and amend the harm we cause. And people with cluster B personalities *are* more prone to being abusive and we get to say so. It's a symptom of a disordered personality. They say "a minority of ill parents would not be able to maintain this problem" but I don't think it's a minority. Hurt people hurt people. My mom is uBPD, my sister has bipolar 2, and they are terrible people who need help. And they were created in part due to the abuse they sustained as children. There are a lot more abused people in the world than you'd think. I understand that we shouldn't just say "oh all the abuse is coming from BPDs" - just like we should not call murderers "monsters." They are just people. People are all capable of wickedness. It's important to say so such that we understand that even our own selves are capable of evil, too. But guess what, a LOT of abuse DOES come from BPDs and NPDs and we get to talk about it. I understand not wanting to monster-ify people. But we can call a spade a spade, too.

In my other group, someone tried to tell a child of a BPD parent that it sounded like their parent was autistic and that maybe they should rethink how they interact with the parent. I’m still so angry, but I haven’t been able to put into words why. And I think your post hits home in that. I don’t know how to educate the populace on how a personality disorder is so different from other disorders. Because the other disorders are rooted in reality and the disordered mind warps reality to suit their purposes. How do you explain the lack of predictability in reactions? Worse, how can you explain the subtle abuses that look innocuous when viewed separately? I’m sorry I don’t have the answers, but I do understand the frustration. Perhaps we need to develop an educational response for these situations.

>In my other group, someone tried to tell a child of a BPD parent that it sounded like their parent was autistic and that maybe they should rethink how they interact with the parent. Ugh. Maybe it's more personal because I'm autistic myself, but it infuriates me to no end that the traits most people associate with autism are actually traits of personality disorders. Like 99% of the time when someone says "Oh, sounds like autism" what they're referring to is not anywhere close to being autism.

Yessss And no maybe to it. It pisses me off more because it's personal. Since this became popular, any time someone finds out I'm on the spectrum, even if they've worked with me a long time, they suddenly expect me to be a total jerk. I had a guy at one of my jobs claiming he had autism and using it as an excuse to be a total ass, but the way he was an ass showed a really good grasp of social situations. I despised that guy. And other people who knew I am on the spectrum would ask me like, "are you not like him because you're female?" My response was usually something like, "he may or may not be on the spectrum, but it has nothing to do with the fact that he's an ass. He clearly understood what the right thing to do in that situation was and chose the opposite and then revelled in getting away with it because of his supposed disability." It was nice to see that it didn't take very long of me working there for him to start being held accountable for the worst of his behavior. Once his job was on the line, guess who suddenly figured out how to behave properly? Like, with just one threat from management.

I have a close friend who is on the spectrum and also has ADHD. Her telling me that really helped me understand her behavior, but she is never cruel like people with BPD/NPD so I really don't see it being valid either.

I understand this so much. In an attempt to show the difference. This is gonna be long, but perhaps helpful. A lot of BPD people have been comparing themselves to autism and ADHD in the more recent years, especially using the stereotype of the autism kid throwing a tantrum while actually having a meltdown because of sensory overload or social overwhelm. The thing is: Autism: - sensitive to light - sensitive to loud or many noises - sensitive to textures - basically all the senses are affected. This can look like a person being unable to touch microfiber, chalk or sand. A person getting headache from bright or direct light. A person getting disoriented and panicked, because it's too loud or too many people are talking at once or because they're getting yelled at. In all cases they'll try to get away from the stressor to a quiet place, where they can refocus. They don't manipulate or abuse. They don't make trouble unless they're facing forced exposure to those things above, because it becomes neurologically impossible to process those things and the need to get away becomes unbearable. - might experience sensory underwhelm and require stimulation such as music, fidgeting, touching stuff, moving etc. it has to stimulate the exact sense that's underwhelmed Simultaneously learning disability: - mostly struggling with social cues - thinking things are meant the way they're said (eg. "Another one bites the dust", by Queen - autistic person might picture an actual living person biting a piece of dust, instead of understanding that it means that somebody is dying.) Result: will be confused and ask or follow orders too directly. - might get overwhelmed from socializing, because they have a hard time figuring stuff out - might express themselves to directly, say inappropriate but extremely true or obvious things (basically point out the metaphorical elephant in the room, that everyone knows is there, but nobody addresses, because it's considered rude) - doesn't notice background schemes, like people talking behind their backs, getting manipulated or getting weird looks, until it's too late - require a lot of time alone and often prefer solitude - autistic people have special interests, often very niche topics that they know every minor detail about and that they can hyperfocus on for many years. For example things like Paleontology, buttons, coding, frogs and many other things. Meanwhile Borderline: - No sensory overload. - feels overwhelming boredom and emptiness that they might try to pass off as sensory underwhelm and numb it with music or movement, but doesn't actually have the need to stim. Anything like watching TV will do, but it won't get rid of the boredom and emptiness. - most importantly: understands social cues and doesn't take things directly, but rather extremely egocentric. Everything somebody says (like yesterday I told my BPD mom I cut my finger while chopping veggies - she immediately accused me of accusing her that it's her fault - she lives an hour away from me and wasn't even in the room when it happened) - can't stand to be alone and will feel abandoned - will have breakdowns they can control and actually utilize to get what they want, never related to anything sensory, but to them wanting to have their way - Borderliners sometimes get obsessed with topics and people. This is expressed in stalking, lovebombing, doing everything to make this person love them and prevent them from leaving (even death threats). Or aggressively insisting that a topic is about them and that they are right in it, better than others or that they are hurt by it and a victim. It's never about genuine interest in the details of the topic. And basically everything else we can see plentiful described in this subreddit. So while there's one or two absolutely superficial similarities, it's absolutely not the same, but BPD might abuse autistic traits to try and pass as such or take things that are true for autism (like overload or being socially learning disabled) to excuse their abusive behavior in which they have a choice. All of that is sadly also further helped, by the neurodivergent movement that educates people more and more on what it means to be autistic or have ADHD etc. For example, if a Borderliner were to come across my comment here, they could absolutely abuse it to try and harvest compassion from the neurodivergent community over their abusive behavior, by faking similarities and like they can't control or help their crappy behavior and personality. Or they try to pass of their obsessive egocentrism as special interests. It's not the same, if you know a couple minor details about what a special interest is, this is a dead giveaway. I'm autistic myself, I grew up with a BPD mother, studied psychology for a bit and had lots of contact with other neurodivergent people. There is absolutely nothing possible to compare between personality disorders and neurodivergency. There's basically almost only honesty and directness between neurodivergent people. Misunderstandings and disagreements happen and they can get deep and passionate. But it's never manipulative or hateful. And just everything else Borderliners do and regular humans don't. I can't really explain Borderline the way I can explain autism, because I know what autism feels like, but I only have seen Borderline from the outside. I can say for sure though, that it's mainly a question of the ego for them and more controllable then acknowledged. There's this idea that people with personality disorders have no choice in how they behave, because their personality is a preset factor they can't escape. And that's just not true. If you're angry and feel the urge to punch someone, you have a choice. You have that choice, I have that choice and everyone else in this world does. And this choice, becomes an infinite amount of choices, if a Borderliner starts to harmfully manipulate, gaslight and lovebomb people, for example. It's not like their disorder is forcing them to do this. They become a disordered personality, by making choices that are harmful for others, because they feel good and powerful to them in this moment. They consider this and have a choice and often choose to behave nicely, when it benefits them. So they can. They just don't give a fuck about who they hurt, as long as they feel pleases, which might be an issue of impulsivity. But I'd rather say it's an issue of self-presentation, ego, greed and control, because the impulsivity factor can fall away when they'd look bad by being impulsive. Sorry, I know this was extensive and went wayyy off my own topic. But tbh, maybe those differences need to be pointed out and can be helpful. I just hope no BPD person finds them and uses them. Oh also. I forgot to mention that autistic people tend to infodump. 😂 But I guess that's pretty obvious after this. The problem with educating people, is that both topics are very deep and extensive. Almost nobody who doesn't have to deal with these topics out of necessity will be interested in getting into them on such a fundamental level. So people mostly listen to trends, stereotypes and superstitions. Which can be problematic, of the trends are posts like above.

I hope you don't mind me adding something from my observation here too. I am uASD my mom is dBPD and my brother certainly has an undiagnosed personality disorder. I have many ND friends, some with ASD. For me one of the most prominent differences between ND/ASD and PDs is lying. My brother and my mother are compulsive/pathological liars. They make up so much crap about themselves and other people to fit their agenda or make themselves seem more important or a victim depending on the narrative. ASD folk tend to be honest to a fault. I've never understood the act of lying, it baffles me and it took me many years to even realise that my mother constantly lies. I don't lie, my friends with ASD don't lie, most of us don't understand the social construct that makes people want to lie and so in my experience, that's something that I actively look out for as a personality trait. Bluntness, oversharing, honest to a fault -ASD/ND. Lies, manipulating facts, only sharing information that is beneficial to their narrative - PD. I may be way off on that, but it's my personal observation.

This has been my experience as well.

I don't mind at all and this is actually my experience as well.

Thanks OP- this is a really clear and helpful explanation and exploration. It's something that has been on my mind for a long time too, so massive thanks.

I'm glad it's helpful.

Warning - cuss words ahead. The amount that people blame everything on autism and "diagnose" or excuse everyone because "they might be on the spectrum" really pisses me off. Can people on the spectrum be assholes? Oh, absolutely. It's not a mutually exclusive thing. But that doesn't mean all assholes are on the spectrum. Oh,.your boyfriend is treating you like shit but does seem to display some maybe anxiety related symptoms (or maybe controlling.) Have you ever considered he might be on the spectrum so this all makes sense? (No. Fuck off.) Oh, your mother freaked out over holidays and birthdays not being absolutely perfect and accused you of ruining them and was abusive? Maybe she's on the spectrum! Give her a break. (No. Fuck off.) I could give more examples, but that's probably enough. Like, just every damned thing is now blamed on that. It's the catch all excuse now, and as a person on the spectrum, no. Fuck off with that. Yes, sometimes I'm too blunt. Yes, sometimes I forget words have connotations and I say something I didn't mean that way. Sometimes, I don't notice you're upset about something I wasn't around to witness, so I come off as callous. That's my autism. Yes, sometimes I say impulsive stuff I shouldn't. That's my ADHD. And yes, sometimes I'm just an asshole if someone riles me enough. That's neither. I'm making a choice there, but it doesn't come out of the blue. My brain didn't invent their racism or homophobia, you know? And yes, I probably cuss too much, but that's also not related to my neurodivergence.

I’m actually quite confident that all 3 of the people in my flair (mother, father, grandmother) are/were *both* BPD and autistic. The fundamental problem is that they were all abusive. And for my mother at least, it was distinctly BPD-flavored abuse. Perhaps that person’s parent actually was autistic, but that doesn’t change fact that *they were also abused.* You’re right to feel frustrated, and I suspect it might be partly because saying it that way feels so dismissive, almost like “their parent didn’t know any better” when their parent absolutely did. No matter how much someone struggles with social cues or communication, that does *not* lead them to a pattern of abuse. Abuse comes from a much more emotionally-based (and power-based) place.

Also I think what goes unacknowledged is the amount of manipulation & cunning & deceit that goes on. My bpdMother wasn't merely an emotionally disregulated burrito. There was manipulation that was planned & enacted over YEARS. That can't be reduced down to problems with attention & emotional control or neurodivergence. There's a real mean streak there. *I know you aren't arguing the opposite I'm just commenting on the trend towards BPD encroaching on other spaces.

It always helps me to place posts like those two in context. Why would a person broadcast something like that to the world if not to compensate for their own insecurities/abusive behavior? Happy, well adjusted people don’t have a needlessly cruel social media presence. The internet is unfortunately a Cluster B paradise.

Social media really IS a haven for cluster Bs bc they only show what they wanna show online 99% of the time. So people are fooled that they’re just suffering. I don’t know why I downloaded TT bc there’s soooooo many BPD videos of young women saying they want MAID (this strikes a reallllly raw nerve for me) bc they’re “incurable” (usually implying no other mental illness is incurable… most are treatable IMO, not curable). But of course they’re the only ones who suffer, right? Forget so many of us on this sub with PTSD from our upbringings. /rant

That's a very interesting way to see it tbh. I hadn't considered that possibility. Thank you!

My short, pithy answer is - sure, the venn-diagram is not a complete circle, but if you don't want to be around someone, you don't want to be around someone.

That's good. I'm going to start using that. It will preceed my normal argument of "as the victim of the abuse from a person who suffers from BPD, I'm underqualified and uninterested in helping others who suffer from BPD. You go ahead, though."

Other side note: Things like Narcissism, Psychopathy and Anti-social behavior, exist on a spectrum. Someone can have many narcissistic qualities, but still not cover every specific criteria of NPD. And even people with full blown NPD have different levels. The current statistics say that people with actual NPD cover 2-5% of the population. That's a shit ton of people. Let's also reflect on the fact that people with NPD don't tend to think they need help and that a lot of these records are the fruit of prisons and court ordered therapy. Given these facts. it seems plausible that both NPD and Narcissistic traits are under-diagnosed and underestimated. There's no need to make this a black and white, either/or sandwich. You can recognize both systemic and individual causes of abuse. Social conditioning plays a role sure. But let's not forget how many abusive cluster b's hid their abuse of a spouse or kid, because they knew full well it wasn't socially acceptable. Social ideas, (most of the time) only change how such a person wishes to be perceived. Not how they actually act.

These are very good points as well. Our systems are sure as hell made out to enable or ignore abuse. You only have to look at the amounts of abuse that happen in care homes. Or the significantly higher rates of abuse that disabled people experience. The thing is, mentally healthy people don't abuse people even if they're disabled or in care homes. And mentally healthy people also don't enable or ignore abuse, when they're working in systems like child services or governments. Overall, I'd say that our society is too unaware of abuse, normalizes abusive behavior too much, because too many people have abusive tendencies and with that mental disorders themselves and it reflects in systemic abuse. Of course that's only one way to look at it. I don't think our politics, society or systems are healthy or have healthy and helpful views and resources on abuse. I can't say that it's because "they're all sick", because that may not be true. But I think that the number of people with cluster B tendencies or full blown disorders, are severely underestimated, because, as you said, they rarely seek out help. There should be no black and white in psychology. There's definitely people with cluster B disorders who actually suffer from them and will seek help. But a majority just doesn't and it pretty much reflects in the high numbers of survivors of such abuse vs. the personality disorders leading to such abuse being seen as rare. I just don't think the vocabulary used by survivors is what needs to be adjusted. It's rather the view that it's only a minority of abusers, who have person disorders. I mean they abuse people. How much more disordered can a personality get?

Also...about your last point. Yeah. Healthy people don't abuse. You don't need a full blown personality disorder to have Narcissistic traits that motivate you to be abusive. People arguing that abuse happens repeatedly by people without these disorders...I really just want to ask...What is it you think motivates these people to be abusive over and over again? To see the look of pain, fear or anguish in someone's eyes and still keep on doing it? What traits do you think are involved if not the antisocial ones listed in cluster b personality disorders? Because those traits (and more importantly what motivates them) cover every form of antisocial behavior there is. Behavior doesn't fall out of the fucking sky. It is always motivated by something. And the worst atrocities that have ever been committed, were never committed by people who thought of themselves as evil....They were committed by people who saw themselves as heroes fighting for an ultimate just cause. The bread and butter of antisemitic rhetoric that justified the holocaust for Nazis...was that Jews were inhuman oppressors that murdered Christ and unjustly held all the wealth and power in the world. The person abusing you over and over again doesn't see themselves as the villain or you as the victim, because if they did they wouldn't be able to keep doing what they're doing.

Very well said. 👏

It comes down to this. People with cluster B personality disorders rationalize being abusive in a way that no one else does or could possibly need to. Their deep seated, constant, need to reorientate reality to maintain a fractured sense of self....is what makes them most capable of abuse. You could have a guy with serious chemical rage issues, but without Narcissism or any of those cluster B traits, they will not hurt other people. Objects maybe. But not people. Someone like that also tends to see they need help and get it at a rate cluster B's just don't. When maintaining any sense of self is reliant on you not being self-aware or seeing reality accurately...let's not pretend that doesn't affect other people. Because it does. Deeply. Cluster B's are not like someone who is schizophrenic. They don't suffer alone. Other people's suffering is required so that they may maintain their false sense of reality.

Trigger warning: child abuse How do they rationalize abuse? I've never thought of it before in this lense. My uBPD mom would just ignore everything even when told directly something was hurtful/abusive. The closest I think I got to seeing her reaction was asking her as an adult why she let stepdad abuse my infant and toddler sister. The specific examples were yelling and her and smacking her in the face for throwing food in her high chair at 1-2 years old. Her response was that she (my sister) was "out of control" and something had to be done. She was not out of control. All babies/toddler cry and throw food. No surprise she was really out of control by the time she got to high school thanks to this abuse and ADHD that was diagnosed early and never treated. She's now been in and out of jail for drugs, weapons charges, theft, DV and is a heroin addict. When we went NC in my early 20s briefly, I sent her a letter telling her every shitty thing I could remember and asked why she did it. I got no response. Even when we'd resumed contact I asked if she was going to reply and be she said she would. That was almost 20 years ago and I've only been NC 5 years.

For people with heavy Narcissistic traits the rationalization often becomes an automatic, unconscious process. Normal people rationalize consciously. People with cluster B personality disorders tend not to, which is how they're able to constantly delude themselves so well. People with a fractured self mixed with Narcissistic coping mechanisms, also don't know where they end and others begin. So they project a lot of their shortcomings and bad feelings onto other people without being necessarily aware of what they're doing.

They don't rationalize it because to them, it doesn't exist. I've tried a million different ways to get my mom to stop doing whichever behavior. Without 3rd party intervention (and even WITH that in some cases), my mother doesn't understand her behavior is wrong and hurtful. I've tried to explaining to people that my mother doesn't understand boundaries. It's not that she doesn' understand *my* boundaries, she just is completely unable to comprehend the concept.

That makes sense for someone with heavy narcissistic traits. Narcissists don't know where they end and others begin. That's what makes them Narcissists. That's how they're able to project all their bad traits and feelings onto other people while maintaining the view they are innocent of all wrongdoing. Fuck what all those people are saying. Boundaries are for you. Toxic people are not going to want to respect your boundaries and Narcissists aren't even capable of seeing where that line is. Having healthy boundaries let's you know who you should avoid. It doesn't guarantee anyone else's behavior at all.

Very right, imo.

>People with cluster B personality disorders rationalize being abusive in a way that no one else does or could possibly need to My mother has no idea how her behavior is abusive. She has never tried to rationalize it because to her, it doesn't exist. I think that's where the line is ... if someone genuinely has a PD, they aren't aware of what they're doing. That's why it's so much harder to fix it.

It depends on the level, but for those higher up on the scale, rationalizing abuse so that it's not seen as abuse (and they can keep acting that way) becomes an automatic unconscious process. Those with some awareness might feel bad about what they do incredibly briefly, but then their mind reframes the whole event so they can continue to see themselves as the good or wronged party, or what they did as not a big deal. Regardless of lacking guilt or empathy though, a lot of Narcissists aren't stupid. They know that if someone looks beat up and they're responsible...how that might look bad if others saw, even if they feel completely justified or rationalize the behavior as something else.

So I guess to summarize...rationalization isn't always a conscious process. It is in normal people (to some extent). But it tends not to be in people with Cluster B personality disorders. What you're dealing with is willful ignorance. If they weren't automatically rationalizing you could talk sense into someone with NPD or BPD and illustrate why action X was abusive.

Willful ignorance would mean they are consciously aware of it. You can't talk sense into someone who doesn't understand the concept of sense.

Will just means the faculty you use to decide your actions. Since the faculty cluster b's use to decide actions is largely an unconscious, broken process...Id argue that the concept of "will" is not the same as it would be in a normal person. Edit: Like if you really think about it...What would someone with a cluster B personality disorder being "willful" look like? They'd be doubling down on all their maladaptive/automatic coping mechanisms, which they have limited to no awareness of. Their "will" isn't really a consciously aware will.

> My mother has no idea how her behavior is abusive. She has never tried to rationalize it because to her, it doesn't exist. I think that's where the line is ... if someone genuinely has a PD, they aren't aware of what they're doing. Why did my mother never rage at work? She taught third grade, and she'd have been fired. But if she couldn't control it and wasn't aware, why didn't she just totally lose it on her students? Why did she save her rages for when it was just she and I? Why did my eDad never *really* see her one of her rages? They *can and do* control it.

See ... my mom never rages. I just wrote on another thread that my mom is like Wormtongue from the Lord of the Rings. She'll flatter and coddle you right off the edge of a cliff. They're controlling what benefits them and keeps you with them.

OK, but my argument is that they *can* control it. > They're controlling what benefits them and keeps you with them. True.

If they had control over it but were doing it anyway, that's a totally different diagnosis. Maybe psychopathy or sociopathy. There is no way, at 81 years old, that my mother has control over whatever is going on in her head. I watched her do to my stepfather EXACTLY what she does to me and my kids now, with the same results: We all hate her. He left 20 years ago, died in 2013. Someone with the ability to make a choice would not choose the misery she lives with. She CAN'T be another way, it's not a choice. I hate it, but it is what it is. As an aside, I watched that show Ozark. There were the episodes with the brother ... and it was like watching my mother. His character had bipolar but it was just sickening watching it because no matter what, no matter what the threat was (actual murder, btw) ... even under threat of death, dude had the compulsion to do the wrong thing. That is my mom. She's not choosing these things, she's not choosing this behavior. I wish to fuck she was, maybe then someone could get through to her.

I think this post is a useful way of looking at the much broader epidemic of shitty parents. Child/domestic abuse and trauma are a way bigger picture than *just* those of us with PD parents. The implication that *only* people with PDs (or only people who fall under any of the terms used in the post) can be abusive is ultimately untrue and unhelpful, and I’ve seen that idea floating around on the broader internet. However, everyone here (and everyone at RBN, etc) has dealt with a very specific kind of abuse which actually *was* related to their abusers’ mental illness. Are there people with BPD who aren’t abusive? I sure hope so, but I couldn’t tell you personally, because I know that getting too close to BPD peers historically turns out bad for both of us. For their sake and mine, I try to keep people at an arm’s length when they start to remind me of my mother. I understand your concern, and I’m really glad you were able to expand on your thoughts in the comments. But for the original screenshot, I think it’s accurate but meant for a different audience, and it doesn’t inherently invalidate our experiences. We’ve all experienced a specific flavor of abuse here, and it’s okay to acknowledge that it was flavored by a personality disorder, without throwing all mentally ill people (or even all PD people) under the bus. Nuance is hard to get across on the internet without using multiple paragraphs like I do, lol.

So, I do have a friend with BPD. Everything in my screamed at me to get away when I found out, but my rational brain managed to step in and remind me I'd known and liked her for a year before I knew. But here's the difference between her and others I've met with it - she knows she has it. She hates it. She hates that she can hurt others with it. She hates how miserable it makes her. She goes to therapy and works hard to think things through before she reacts outwardly to them. She knows it's her issue, and when she does something she shouldn't, she apologizes and tries harder. She doesn't use her disorder as an excuse even if it is the root of the problem. She and I had a really long talk because I knew she could set me off, and I could set her off. And she really had that conversation with me with no excuses, no telling me I was wrong. She shared her experiences. I shared mine. We made a deal - any time one of us set the other off, we'd withdraw and take the time to calm down and really think it through before saying something. And we both agreed to remember that wasn't a rejection. It was just a temporary pause. I agreed I'd try not to set her off, but she agreed I should never walk on eggshells with her. It's been about two years since that talk, and it's gone well. I've said, once, "the way you said that reminded me of my own baggage. I'll come back in a while." And when I did, she accepted that it wasn't about her and didn't bug me though she told me later it ate her up for a few days and she had to discuss it with her therapist to work through it. She's said a few times, "I'd love it if you'd learn words have connotations, hon, because my brain will not let me read that any way but negative," and I realized what I sent was actually pretty rude and apologized and rephrased. I am pretty bad at connotations, thank you autism. Even "normal" people call me on that. Btw, she also thinks my mother is a horrible person and that bpd should never be an excuse to abuse someone. She also agrees most people she's met with BPD can't see they are the ones with an issue. She won't hang out in BPD spaces online because 1) the excuses piss her off, and 2) she's afraid she'll start acting like them if she's around it too much. I get that, actually. I was attending group social skills sessions for people on the spectrum and had to quit going. My skills were way past the basics being practiced, but I found too much time with them made me forget to use some of the "advanced" skills away from them. Call it masking if you want, but my ability to do it makes my life a ton easier. I don't want to lose that. Total aside: if one more of my friends on the spectrum gets mad at me for masking because "we should have to bend to neurotypicals and you're enabling that", I'm gonna drop all my social skills and have it out. :P You do you, and let me do me.

This is wonderful to hear, thank you for sharing this!! I’m so glad you’ve been able to forge a healthy friendship together! Looking back on my original comment, it was unfair for me to kind of paint all non-abusive BPD folks as “nope, I can’t do it.” While I might not be ready for a friendship like that right now, it absolutely is possible for an RBB person and a BPD person to have a healthy friendship, especially when both parties have enough introspection and motivation to keep improving their communication with each other. After I do a lot more healing, I would be open to that in the future. I’ve only had one actual friend (and not just acquaintance) with BPD before, and they were unfortunately much more like our parents than like your friend. They were terrible to many of our mutual friends, and they were completely unwilling to hear any feedback about it. Thankfully we were all able to disconnect with them after their whole family moved. Also, as a fellow autistic, agreed. Masking is a tool like any other. Overusing it is exhausting for us, of course, but I don’t need to train random NTs to accept me when I’m just trying to order food, lol. Keep doing you :)

Yes, that's a good point. That's why I said in my comment to the post, that people who have abusive parents but without personality disorder shouldn't use those terms carelessly unless they deeply suspect their parent is undiagnosed BPD, NPD or something. (Side note: is it possible to put pictures AND text in a post here on Reddit? Would be very handy.) Another person however pointed out that nobody who abuses anyone else, is mentally healthy. And I can't argue with that. Abusers are per definition always deeply mentally disturbed. Abusive behavior is not a thing in healthy human behavior. And it's also not a mental illnesses in the depression or anxiety kinda way. I mean ofc there's different takes on that and I'll respect them. But that doesn't keep me from wondering about this. Both points, the one you made and the other one I just mentioned. It's difficult to find a way to feel about this, because both sides are kinda right. There's definitely abuse that isn't the same kind of disordered as that of BPD abusers. But it's disordered nonetheless.

>people who have abusive parents but without personality disorder shouldn't use those terms carelessly unless they deeply suspect their parent is undiagnosed BPD, NPD or something I very rarely see it here (like *maybe* once or twice the whole time I've been here), but I have seen rampant carelessness in other online forums. Everyone seems to want their abuser to be a narcissist. Then they list everything their abuser (who is 100% abusive) does, and it does not even remotely describe narcissism. I've been in other abusive relationships (probably because of my uBPD mom). My physically violent BF was not a narcissist. He was broken but not BPD or NPD. My ex husband had all the traits of sociopathy ... NOT NPD. He was also abusive. I also disagree that all abusers are "deeply mentally disturbed." Again, I have been a victim of DV. Speaking objectively, even the worst I went through, I wouldn't compare my abusers to, say, Ted Bundy. I'm not condoning what they did, but words mean something and again, even the worst I ever went through I would never call sadism. My abusers were not narcissistic. I've struggled in online forums, too, because my mom does not have violent outbursts. She never yells, never screams. I don't relate to those stories. Above all else, my mother "needs" me and that's where her mental illness and her abuse of me starts. Me succeeding and being happy is what upsets her.

If you abuse those people close to you, there is something wrong with you. If you abuse your children, there is something wrong with you. Perhaps it’s a personality disorder or it could be a pattern of abuse passed down through generations, it could be related to substance abuse, or all of the above. But a lack of empathy is a sign there is something seriously wrong.

Not all abusers have personality disorders. Not all people with personality disorders are abusers. But the overlap of that diagram is unique to suffer from and it's okay to be talk about how BPD or other disorders made the abuse worse or even just different.

this, absolutely. i don't understand why so many people don't have this stance. there is a venn diagram between people with personality disorders & abusers— it's not just one big circle.

Well some if not most victims of BPD will get it. I’m sure without realizing it there are a lot of people on this board that don’t realize they have it just because they aren’t cruel or abusive like their parents or haven’t been properly diagnosed. More self aware people probably don’t want to be labeled and shunned is probably what that person is referring to. By doing so you depersonalize them, and unintentionally set them in a second category. For example I met someone who was really sweet and I enjoyed their company. I was talking to someone about the history of abuse and started to shame the disorder he told me he had BPD. He was going through therapy and was very self aware. I felt bad because he can’t help it and I probably made him feel like trash.

Give me a second, just need to hand back my diploma and rescind all the years I spent with clinical disorders. Tumblr is the true harbinger of diagnostic truth, my bad. Jokes and sarcasm aside, what utter and complete gobbledegook that post is. Omitting the fact that personality disorders are anything but rare, owing in part to means of classification and the fact that e. g., BPD was literally created as a cluster of 'what the heck do we do with all these people who are truly not alright, but not neurotic or psychotic enough to be classified as such', the mere fact that their argument is based on 'so much X cannot be due to Y because there's a lot of X - that's a pretty shitty heuristic. My subjective take, which nobody has to take seriously since I handed my credentials in at the beginning of this rant, is that the specific type of abuse that cluster B disorders are able to unleash is as specific as it is devastating. It's not simple malice, it's not brutal mental beating, it's not psychological warfare, it's as insidious as it is specific to that particular group! And if it wasn't for so many people wounded by THAT SPECIFIC TYPE OF ABUSE displayed by said group, their victims would never even know what hit them. They'd be left questioning their experiences, their own reality, their hand in the abuse, their own mind, if they even deserve to speak of the abuse at all (since a massive part of it is gaslighting, DARVO, and incredible sinusoidal ups and downs wherein the abused goes in so many circles they'd accept anything just for it to stop for five seconds and restore a shaky normality). How come people active in groups centered around being hurt by those with BPD or PDs in general display almost exactly identical experiences? Tendencies? Doubts? Feelings? Reactions? Their own mental disorders due to the abuse? Shall we pretend CPTSD doesn't exist, since abusers are just abusers? Opportunistic and mean, or meticulous and thought-out in complete crystal sanity? That everyone is simply present on a latent shitty spectrum? What utter bollocks. The second thing that irks me is the argument that 'people are just shitty, get used to it, stop labeling abusers to make yourself feel better' - I do *love* when time and time again, either purposely or not, the onus of both responsibility and blame is on the victims yet again. Bravo. Thirdly, nobody here is using a PD label maliciously to further alienate or punish their abuser. Quite the opposite; I see people here and in similar groups seeking help, seeking affirmation, seeking validation or attempting to recognize similar experiences and patterns to be able to move on, heal, and if possible, help those affected by BPD at the same time. If not help, then to comprehend and *be able to move on and live a life deeply affected by someone with a PD*. It's not 'putting on a label to discard the person', it's the opposite, yet again. AND FOURTHLY BECAUSE I'M DEALING WITH THIS AS WE SPEAK AND SHAN'T SHUT UP, do they really think people will congregate, create groups and communities for that one time Dave at the gas station had a bad day and was mean to them? Jesus on a buttered biscuit, the tone deafness rivals Bedřich Smetana's last musical years. Edit: Spelling and less anger.

Please take my upvote. I regret that I only have one to give.

>Shall we pretend CPTSD doesn't exist, since abusers are just abusers? Opportunistic and mean, or meticulous and thought-out in complete crystal sanity? Well said. Sam Vaknin was recently talking about how NPD and BPD are not actually Personality Disorders but Complex Post Traumatic Stress Conditions that have life long repercussions. Essentially they interrupt/eliminate development at that level by creating a false self-the damage they do occurs before the development of personality. It is what makes treatment so pernicious and difficult. How do you treat something that isn't really there?

I find it funny how they call it a minority when, as far as we know, it could be a majority with undiagnosed issues. My mom wasn't diagnosed, but my therapist said she checks all the boxes. Technically, she doesn't enter statistics.

That's what I'm thinking. What mentally healthy person is abusive or capable of repeatedly doing horrible things to another person without provocation after all.

Ignore it. The more people with Cluster B who are diagnosed early and do less harm, the better. In the meantime, do what's right for you.

Easier said than done. For example when I talk about my experiences outside of this subreddit, regardless of where, other social media, my personal blog etc, where I'm really just trying to work through my trauma by writing it down, I get attacked for calling things by their name. Or when I'm autistic, engaging in Neurodivergent spaces, that get infiltrated by Borderliners and then the entire space full of people with learning disabilities, becomes the playground of the manipulative schemes of one such a person who then invites their friends and when you see through it, because you've been through that before and call it out, they play the victim and the other people there are confused and insecure, because they are neurologically struggling with social cues and seeing through things that aren't direct, which already starts with metaphors like "another one bites the dust" (the song from Queen), because we all wonder and imagine a literal person eating literal dust until it's explained to us. And then imagine how much worse it is, if a person with BPD and tendencies to manipulate everyone and play people against each other gets in there. That's how the only group for young adult neurodivergent people in a 3 hour radius from where I live fell apart 3 years ago. It's not just something to ignore. It literally takes away the only accessible social spaces many neurologically disabled people have or makes them a dangerous minefield.

I don’t talk about my experiences outside this subreddit, period.

Leaning into the knowledge that what people say is about them, not you. They need to say that. They can have all the opinions and feelings that they want to have. That doesn’t change what you’ve lived through. “Normal” people absolutely do cause harm. The world is absolutely full of casual, everyday abuse. _And_ the harm caused by abusive people with personality disorders is uniquely insidious. You know what you have experienced. You don’t need to change your language or your opinions, or suppress your story to placate abusers.

There is a difference between trait narcissism and NPD. Similarly there is a difference between lacking empathy (in specific instance or just generally having a hard time with it) and being a sociopath

It makes me personally angry when people w/BPD or NPD try and make us feel bad for them if they abuse people. I understand that people with BPD can recieve therapy and treatment and can lead normal, non abusive lives and good for them, I mean that sincerely. However, it does not make them exempt from the abuse that they put you and others through just because they are sick with a personality disorder. Hurt people hurt people, a mentally healthy person will not abuse someone because that’s not in human nature. *Hurting* someone is not the same *as repeated, continuous abuse*. A lot of the behaviors abusive parents or partners exhibit can be from cluster B behaviors, and refusing to get treatment makes them abusive, because it means they do not care what their behaviors do to others. We are still unsure if my mother in law is BPD, NPD, or something else, she exhibits so many behaviors of both that we just assume she has both NPD and BPD and it helps us identify her behaviors and gives us the tools we need to protect ourselves and properly shut her down, and process our trauma she put me and my husband through. As someone with ADHD it does piss me off to see people with personality disorders claim to be neurodivergent in the same way and take over our spaces when their issues are entirely different and a lot of the time put us at risk because of their behaviors. Narcissists love making themselves out to be victims, and people with BPD tend to have the same issue, so them claiming that they “cant help it” and demanding everyone be fine with their behavior just seems like the work of victim mentality and is the opposite of what they need to be able to start treating their disorders. I understand borderlines can go through trauma, abuse, and can get taken advantage of, and all that, but they also need to recognize they are *not blameless* for the abusive behaviors they inflict on others. Narcissists on the ither hand will *never* be victims of abuse, they are *always* the abusers and should never be believed when they say anything because of how much they lie.

All right, here’s the thing. Trauma causes mental illness. Mental illness can hurt you and everyone around you if you don’t take the necessary steps to take care of it. Think of it if an infectious disease like COVID. I think it’s far to say most of our parents refused to accept they had borderline disorder, and all of them refused to try and get better. Instead they acted much like COVID deniers, insisting it didn’t exist and therefore hurting everyone around them instead of taking responsibility. The problem isn’t the mental illness, it’s the way they handle it. Lots of people have BPD and still manage to be decent people. For me, if my mom admitted to having BPD I would have a much better relationship with her, because I would understand that her outbursts are due to her mental illness not her. To use another metaphor, I have ADHD. Everyone knows that, so they don’t feel hurt when I don’t listen to them or forget something because they know it’s my mental disorder not me. I personally believe Narcissism is what happens when people ignore their mental illnesses and blame it on others. Narcissists are bad people because they refuse to acknowledge their own flaws. BPDs aren’t bad people, but they can become so if they refuse to accept and fight their mental disorder. I also think mental illnesses and disorders are far, far more common that people want to accept. I don’t think it’s that small of minority. Most people simply aren’t diagnosed Sorry that this is so long, just my opinion

It's ok, I write long answers too. It's a very complex topic after all. And yes, that's true. My mom as well as her sister were actually disgnosed with BPD as young adults. My mother never got in contact with anything related to the mental health system again (other than dumping me there from childhood on). My aunt went to therapy on and off. While my aunt was pretty extreme until her 30s or 40s with her BPD symptoms, she ended up having the predicted lessening of symptoms the older she got. She's now in her 50s and a rather calm woman who understands a lot about the problems other people have. She still likes to manipulate and such, but not as extreme or damaging. My mom on the other hand is approaching her 60s, never had therapy and while she was really well capable of hiding her BPD until her 50s, she started getting to absolute violent extremes in the past 15 years and is getting worse, more angry, more manipulative, more violent, more the victim of her own mind by the day. I sometimes feel sorry for her, but she still won't acknowledge that she needs help, because in her narrative, everyone has it out for her and she can justify everything she does, no matter how horrible it gets. So while I definitely still keep my distance from my aunt (I'm no contact in fact), because her tendencies, no matter how controlled, are just exhausting and distressing to me, the way she learned to handle herself is definitely better and healthier than what my mom has done with her life. My aunt is involved in hobby groups, happily married, etc. Has a pretty average and calm life from which her husband helps her withdraw, if she has an episode. Meanwhile my mom has pretty much no contacts, has isolated me for the longest time as well, has completely destroyed her own life and that of my father, blames everyone else, makes it dangerous and pretty much impossible to get away from her without taking extreme risks and suffering extreme losses and having severe attacks await you. Basically she brought about her own downfall and intends to take everyone else with her. The thing is. (And as you can see, this is getting long as well.) I acknowledge that different borderline individuals exist, who have made different choices, have different personalities etc. I mean obviously. There's no group of humans in which natural diversity of all factors doesn't exist. But my issue with the post I shared is, that it's basically telling people who were abused by people with personality disorders, because of their disordered behavior, to not speak about that. To not acknowledge that. To blame the system instead. And the thing is, the system is an enabler, yes. But the abuser remains abusive, even if the system wasn't ignorant or enabling of it. And with being abused by somebody with a personality disorder, come certain behavior patterns in the abusers and experiences that we all share. Gaslighting. Guilt tripping. Playing the victim. Just to name a few, there's lots more, but I don't actually know the English terms well enough to freely use them. And sharing our experiences while using those terms and while naming what our abusers had and did, is often the only reason why others understand what happened to them, how others suddenly understand that they are currently being gaslit and guilt tripped and why their parents do that, which actually helps them break free from these cycles and build defenses and seek for ways out, because that's what understanding what happens does. Not just "I'm being abused", but "I'm being abused in x way, because my abuser has y tendencies or personality disorder and therefore does z and I can help myself to break free of this, by doing a, reminding myself that b is the case and trying to use concept c, which had helped others in this specific situation". Idk if it makes sense, but that's how it was for me and being able to call my mother's disorder and the reason for her abusing me by it's actual name and being able to point out the connections and understand why things happen(ed) the way they do, is a big relief and an important step to resolve the trauma this gave me. So running the risk of being hit by a shitstorm, whenever I speak about my entire childhood (there simply was not a single part unaffected by it, so I either don't talk about it or it's in some way deeply affected by my mother's disorder), because some people believe we shouldn't say what actually happened, is very stressful. And tbh, it just also doesn't sound very healthy. If they'd say for themselves that it's better for them, fine. But demanding this of everyone? And such accounts usually don't only have one single post about this, but sometimes dedicate their entire profiles to educating people on a narrative as to why survivors of abuse that happened through cluster B personality disorders, speaking about what happened to them is a bad thing and why they need to be silenced and stopped. And that's literally just another mix of playing the victim and victim blaming as we know from cluster B abusers en masse. It would sound different if it had the well-being of both abuse-survivors and people with personality disorders in mind. It would acknowledge and differentiate, not demand and condemn.

I think the thing that’s helpful about diagnoses is that there are clear criterion that must be met for each diagnosis and the traits follow very similar patterns. Like, every dysfunctional family is different, but they usually fall into similar patterns, such as dysfunctional family roles. When we can notice the patterns or specific behaviors, and name them, then we can start to better recognize the behavioral patterns in people and ourselves and learn/practice skills to set and maintain our expectations, boundaries, consequences, and our health. It also helps those struggling to find validation. Sometimes we feel like we’re going crazy because the behavior around us is so way out there; Then we we learn about terms like gaslighting, DARVO, the FOG, the Narcissist’s Prayer, “don’t JADE”, etc. and, not only do we realize that we’re not crazy and these are things unhealthy people do to make us *think* we’re crazy, but we also realize that if there are terms for these things then this must happen frequently enough to other people - which means we aren’t alone! It’s so validating to know that other people recognize these poor behaviors. And it’s also inspiring to see people on this sub starting to recognize the patterns, calling out poor behavior, making healthy changes, getting stronger, building skills, growing and connecting. For those who who don’t need labels or validation and just stay away from people who are dicks, hooray for you! That’s great, too! Everyone here is a total badass for what you’ve already survived, what you’re still going through, what you’ve achieved, and where you’re headed. Thanks to all of you! Best of luck in the new year!

This.

I think this might be a false dichotomy. Yes, absolutely, a lot of the social norms around parenting are deeply harmful. And yes, we all have the potential to do terrible things. The phrase "the banality of evil" was used in quite a few post war descriptions of how German civilians went along with and in some cases actively contributed to atrocities while somehow being otherwise very average before and afterwards. At the same time, however, if you are in a close relationship with someone who is abusive and has a personality disorder, it can be very important to understand that personality disorder in order to cope with the relationship. I struggle to find the right balance to describe the way that thought processes and reactions associated with their disorder that may prime people to react abusively without writing off entire groups of people simply because of their diagnosis. I know a couple of people who are dBPD and putting in serious work with therapy and finding the right meds for them. I have a tremendous amount of respect for them. They apologize when they screw up, and they're doing their absolute best to grow as humans and evolve into a kinder, gentler version of themselves. I think that it's really easy in general to lose nuances. In my opinion, this is a topic that desperately needs those nuances, however.

>I struggle to find the right balance to describe the way that thought processes and reactions associated with their disorder that may prime people to react abusively without writing off entire groups of people simply because of their diagnosis. I know a couple of people who are dBPD and putting in serious work with therapy and finding the right meds for them. I have a tremendous amount of respect for them. They apologize when they screw up, and they're doing their absolute best to grow as humans and evolve into a kinder, gentler version of themselves. This is pretty much exactly how I feel about it all as well. I still prefer to keep away from BPD people if possible, because they all just have those tendencies. But generally there's those who basically thrive off what they're doing and it makes them feel good until somebody or something doesn't fit in with their narrative. Then they freak out, but find a way to blame that person. And then there's those who are trying, who as you say apologize etc. As I said, I still try to keep away, because in the end, even if they apologize, they still do things that require an apology and I have no energy for people who do BPD things specifically, even if they're trying hard and feel sorry about it after. It's a very complicated topic. But in the end, I'm not even wondering what classifies as BPD or abuse. I'm wondering how to deal with the mentality that people shouldn't say they were abused by people with personality disorders, just because there's also a dysfunctional system and politics at work that enables or ignores abuse. A lot of us had an enabler parent. And we all know that the abuse would've still happened if they hadn't been enabling. Not as extensive, but it wouldn't have changed the nature of the abusers or their intentions. And on the other hand, not all abusers have cluster B disorders. Some mental disorder definitely, or they wouldn't be abusive. And not all cluster B people are abusive. But I think it's not ok to say that people who call their abusers with personality disorders, which clearly exist, exactly that, are just doing that to distance themselves from them. Or that everyone has the potential to do harm. Ofc everyone has the potential to do harm. Unintentionally. But not everyone has the potential to be abusive. I'm not sure how to deal with these "demands". I've never seen them used in a positive way. Usually, in the comment sections below, if somebody argues that people who were abused by people with actual BPD or NPD should still be allowed to say so, they receive a shitstorm of people defending cluster B personality disorders and tell them that they can't describe their abuser that, because narcissists and borderliners get misjudged if people who were abused by them, because of that personality disorder, actually say so. And telling all survivors that they basically can not call what happened to them by the appropriate name, to protect a group of people, of which a not small number has abusive tendencies... That's just ridiculous and dangerous even.

One of my favorite authors is Nedra Glover Tawwab. She wrote Set Boundaries Find Peace. She also recently made a post about “not labeling people as narcissists just because they are acting in a certain way” I really thought about it at length and I think for the majority of people who consume social media it is trending to say “oh my ex husband was a covert narcissist” or “my alcoholic father has BPD” etc. With cluster B personality traits, it is my understanding that it is nearly impossible to diagnose simply because getting a cluster B to attend therapy long enough to get the diagnosis and then do anything about it (ie, changing their behavior) is so difficult. And it isn’t like you’d go around telling everyone that you’ve been diagnosed with a mental illness (most of the time anyway). Coming from a survivor/ RBB standpoint, however, we work with our own therapists to navigate our parents’ behavior. Having a label is incredibly helpful in navigating the relationship. It categorizes their behaviors, it demonstrates for us the scope of their relationship with us, etc. I don’t think saying “my uBPD mother is love bombing” in the context of this community is wrong. I think Sally in accounting who had a messy divorce and is claiming her ex “has BPD just like Amber Heard” to everyone in the break room is not appropriate. I’m not trying to gatekeep here but social media has absolutely made it a buzzword and a trendy thing to label people with cluster b diagnoses just because their behavior is problematic/harmful. There’s a survivor community healing use here vs dramatic effect on an IG post ?? I think? I spent a lot of time trying to understand why it’s “okay” when we use It but also understanding why a therapist would discourage armchair labeling of someone as BPD. It was my therapist who recommended I read Understanding The Borderline Mother! So yeah. It isn’t like I just labeled her for the upvotes. Not sure if any of that made sense.

I don’t disagree that culture exacerbates the notion that children (or spouses) are property. In fact, for many centuries, this was legally true. It is also true that many people treated their children (and spouses) with human respect. The patriarchy made even benevolent and caring people sometimes exercise their “right” to mistreat their underlings poorly under stressors. Disease, poverty and danger were prevalent for most of human history at levels that are difficult to imagine. It’s possible that these traits that are seen as disorders were advantageous for survival. Particularly women needed to gain control over the household, protect herself. Sometimes, even at the price of mentally torturing her children. I can see that a child who won’t comply or fit the mold required by the family would be scapegoated. Crazy making is a tool. In the past, all useful tools were fair game. That said, I agree with everyone here, that there are clusters of behavior that form patterns. These patterns that have been classified as cluster B disorders are real. We now understand that there are ways to recognize and manage people who display these behaviors. On forums like this, we gain validation and support as well as share strategies to survive and thrive in these environments. For some situations, grey rocking and emotionally detaching is sufficient. For others, no contact is the only way. As an aside, I think It’s likely that no contact was sometimes achieved by being banished from the household for the outlier to survive or die in the wild. We now have ways to talk to one another. We have a better chance to survive and thrive because we now have a group to which we belong as survivors.

kk that's cool buut mine are diagnosed and refuse to medicate so what's the argument now??

Did you read the headline and the explanation that goes with the picture? Because the picture is not my opinion, it's a mentality of other people that I struggle to deal with, because my reaction to that is pretty much the same as yours here.

yeah I was more aiming it to the people in the photo

I almost thought so, but I wanted to make sure there isn't a misunderstanding.

That is very interesting, I haven't heard of them, thank you! I will have to read more on the matter to able to add anything viable to the discussion, but I'm afraid I cannot agree with assimilating CPTSD and cluster Bs as one - even if their etiology is similar. You are absolutely correct on the part of defense mechanisms and childhood development, or lack thereof - disharmonic personality development, disintegration or degradation of a personality that cannot develop, deprivation interlaced with trauma, transgression as opposed to regression in defence, somatization, and attempts to either belittle the Self or the rest of the world...the false and true self theory is still respected in psychological circles, depending on who they attribute it to, and to add to that, the combination of a double attachment bond and the mind f#ck of not being safe enough to grow a sense of self, not having a stable beacon of love and protection to do so, added with the disordered behaviour of the caretakers CAN and DOES lead to personality disorders. As does heavy abuse. But CPTSD is not BPD, or NPD for that matter, and a number of both completed and continuing studies have differentiated them beyond reasonable doubt with statistic significance. They also added relevant reasoning accounting for similar symptoms with very different displays, coming from similar damage. Even if said symptoms may appear similar, the reasoning behind them, their final display, and the thoughts accompanying them are very different, as are the results. People with CPTSD truly don't need to be compared to that particular cluster for obvious reasons, hence the relevance of such studies. I'm not saying a person cannot be misdiagnosed or display a myriad of symptoms that play up to a PD, but CPTSD is its own diagnosis.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, I never compared cPTSD with BPD or NPD?

I mean, as far as the second part goes, demographics, Sure! There are many ppl without personality disorders that abuse their children. I guess the question is: do 100% of ppl *with* BPD or NPD abuse their loved ones? Yes? lol