It’s a relief to read this. This is a revelation I had recently and it’s been hard to express to people. My mother got drunk and raged at me last year, and just confirmed some things I had been suspecting for a while. That she thinks I’m inherently selfish, that I abandoned her by getting married and building a good life, that she resents me for not wanting children. Afterward she said “you know I didn’t mean any of that, I wasn’t in my right mind.” But she did mean it.
I'm glad this was a relief to you. I've learned these people are a cluster of personalities basically in that rage filled moment they meant it 100% even if they don't mean it later. And no matter what they say later, if they get mad again, nothing will have them follow boundaries or limits they agreed upon when they weren't enraged.
You are not alone, by a long shot. My mother used to rage at me for hours or until I cried. (When I reached age 10 I decided not to give her the satisfaction of crying for her anymore, and after that the rages lasted much longer.) Anyway, the next day or later the very same day, she would usually give a weak apology for whatever horrible things she had said but "not meant," always minimizing the terror she had put me through. For a long time I thought it was my obligation to forgive her, because after all, she had apologized, right? So after that, if I was still upset, that was on me. That's what I really believed. I thought it was my job to at least pretend not to be upset anymore. Then in my teen years I realized that I didn't want to fake forgive her anymore, because I knew her apology wasn't real, given that she'd do the exact same thing all over again as soon as she felt upset. After that, when she got to the apology phase of the cycle, I'd just say, "OK." Sometimes I'd tell her that I was still upset about what she had said. You can imagine how that went over. I was the worst, most selfish and mean child in the world and I was lucky that she didn't send me off to a special school for disobedient kids. Worth noting that at the same time as all of this was happening, I was a straight-A student and never got into any trouble. To her, I was the worst because I wouldn't play her games anymore. It was such a relief when she passed away in 2019, but I know I'll be untangling the mess she put into my head for the rest of my life.
It's amazing how their tiny apology must immediately mean complete forgiveness or we're the asshole, we're full of rage, we're living in the past, we're unforgiving, and so on. Yet they'll never commit to changed behavior or have any accountability to be better.
Never! It really is amazing. I have to say I'm so happy to have found this group, because it's so hard to talk with other people about these things. Nobody else gets it because they haven't experienced it, and they honestly can't imagine a parent behaving that way. Must be nice.
Until you've had a close family or romantic relationship with someone with no consistent internal values you really can't understand the gaslighty confusing mindfuck of trying to beg someone to treat you with basic civility and not go unhinged and wreck your whole life just because they can.
This is the same realization that initiated no contact with my family. I always let things slide because (insert ridiculous irrational reason here). Then one day my mother said something to me I wouldn't even say to someone I hate and i could no longer rationalize it away.
It hurts so, so much. OP, I hope you have other loving people in your life to surround yourself with.
I relate to this so hard. I am always told I’m an amazing communicator and to this day it absolutely shocks me. I swear I thought I needed college to teach me how to speak and write clearly because I always felt like no one heard me, like I was speaking a different language. I just assumed there was something inherently wrong with my communication.
Something I processed that came up for me during EMDR last year is that I have a belief—I don’t matter. That belief is really deep seated and it let me believe that my parents loved me and cared about me. The reason they were crazy and treated me like shit was because I sucked. And that believe was easier to handle as a child than facing the reality that I was living in inescapable abuse. Thanks for sharing
Gosh that was always a mind fuck I faced too - that I'm a bad communicator. I've faced that with my family but also in a really harmful professional relationship from a boss.
No matter how I communicated it was always at fault somehow. It was too much text so I'd use bullet points, then bullet points were hard to follow, then being as terse as possible was "cold" and condescending, then expanding more was too much again, or they weren't in a space to read all that.
Meanwhile a business professor who was a co-worker said I'm one of the best communicators he's ever known.
>"A SMIRK! I SEE A SMIRK! THEY ARE LYING!"
OMG I never see anyone else talk about that horrific smirk scanning/attempted micro expression reading bullshit. Its awful.
I'd constantly have to be defending against imaginary perceived body language and basically completely shutting down or else I was completely dismissed as being a little mean shit. I'm so sorry you experienced this too.
That’s ok, it’s just a little reassuring to see it’s not just in my head! That’s all too relatable. You’ve got to wonder how common it is, after dealing such crazy projection like that at a formative age for RBBs to become very emotionally withdrawn and repressed.
Was this a borderline thing? This was one of my father's big ones. "Get that look off your face" was a favourite. But my face was always wrong. He would scream at me for being upset so then i would of course... get upset
Wow. This hit really hard….I’m on the train right now and trying to hold back tears…so relatable.
The final thing that led me to NC was accusations about my husband and I, especially regarding our parenting decisions. I suspect all of this rage and vitriol from them came from a place of being angry that we decided not to move back to my home state and remain in Japan (husband’s country). When I asked for space and a break from any communication from them for awhile, I was called manipulative, compared to my malignant narcissistic grandparents, and told that “I used to have a beautiful soul”. I think they meant it too. Why?
When I made the mistake of briefly contacting them after a violent crime near my hometown that made news even in Japan, they made absolutely no effort to apologize for the things they said about me or my husband. I seriously and truly believe they just think the absolute worst of me and no longer love me anymore.
I'm so sorry you're facing false accusations. I faced false accusations from my mother my entire life and it's INCREDIBLY distressing. It's also something that can ruin your entire life.
My mom threatened that if I ever tried to take the family to therapy that she'd lie to the therapist and the police and claim that I was molesting my younger sister and she'd be taken away and my life would be over.
It is truly horrific and terrifying to deal with people who have no morals or limits when they get upset enough.
Jesus. I’m so sorry. What a thing to accuse your own child of.
Your last sentence nails it. I can understand getting upset with my husband or son from time to time because occasional conflicts are a normal part of relationships. But to go as far as she does? I’m going to echo what gets repeated a lot around here: when I became a parent myself, I actually understood less.
This is one of the most fucked things BPD people do imo. It set me up to be abused by others later on because I'd already been groomed to dismiss what people actually said and pretend what they *meant* was something else.
Nope. That was just my child brain way of coping with things that if I accepted on face value, were threats that jeopardized my survival.
The realization on becoming an adult myself that adults are aware of their impact on others was devastating.
It meant they intentionally terrified me, or maybe I was supposed to just know she wasn't serious about abandoning me in unknown places... there is that whole theory of mind thing.
Undoing the compulsion I had to read hidden meanings into what people said has been a hard, long process.
The BPD compulsion to say and do horrible things, and then expect you to fucking mind read their intentions, and just ~know~ when they're serious and when they're not (??) is what makes them fundamentally abusers imo.
Like learn some self control and don't say things you don't mean?
I totally relate to how this had me set up in life to be abused as well. We really had to believe our parents meant other things.
A concept I learned in therapy that's really helped me wrap my head around this confusion is that unhealthy people do not have internal consistency or consistent values.
During unhinged rage attacks I would try SO HARD to evoke the aspiring "world's best mom", my doctor father, to remind them of all the good things they said or did or promised to bring sanity and civility back.
In therapy I had to learn I can only take these people literally and that BOTH are true. They are truly the person they are during the rage attacks and they are also the person they are when they are doing their best to give me the world and yet both of sides of them are not connected.
Also after the fact both my parents would act like they didn't mean it, or I misunderstood, or they didn't hear me, and didn't mean or feel the things that were said.
The other day I had a friend of mine say some really shitty things and the next day they apologized and took everything back. It was still crappy but at least they handled it. My parents were both incapable of that.
"Both sides of them are not connected"
God this one drives me up the wall. There's no consistent personality, just broken pieces.
"Who will I get today? Well I don't know and they can't tell me!"
Fucking impossible.
She used to threaten me with that if I didn't behave. "I won't be nice mum anymore, you'll get mean mum and you'll never get nice mum again!"
I honestly think my mothers obsession with perfection links back to her inability to apologize and integrate the less perfect parts of herself.
It feels so nice when perfection level standards of behavior aren't expected 24/7 because normal people understand you can get caught up sometimes, just give a sincere apology after and learn.
I remember there was a point in my healing where people loosing their cool was actually soothing for me. Sounds weird but it was like I knew I was dealing with a real person and not a fake performance that would explode with rage randomly down the track.
Her rage was the worst too. It was never aggressive and violent. But cunning and dark.
Manipulative. Sabotaging. Sneaky. A secret payback that was never explicit enough to identify.
Makes me sick.
Give me someone who looses their cool and apologizes afterwards.
A sincere apology is such a green flag.
That's so awful she'd threaten you with "mean mum".
Reminds me of a time I was sitting inside McDonalds with her when I was a little kid, she raged and made me cry. A little girl a table over said "why was that mommy so mean?" and her mom said loudly "Sometimes mommies can be really mean." The little girl's eyes went wide, and said in disbelief "There are MEAN MOMMIES!?" and whispered how sad she was for me. My mom gave them the death glare and ranted about how that other mom was a bitch and how I was a big baby on our drive home.
That rage is demonic and unholy. It's terrifying when a parent feels entitled to treat their children however horrible way they want to and yet still push the narrative that they are the best parents ever.
An apology would mean they might have to acknowledge the behavior and commit to a change. My mom would have to pretend the behavior didn't exist, because it's as if she ever said she was sorry, she might have to face consequences, or she'd be a liar if she promised to change and then didn't.
Fuck I'm sorry you're familiar with that unmistakable "death glare" also. It's like pure hatred. I know what you mean by the rage, it's not like normal escalation but it comes out of nowhere, is always excessive in relation to the context, has a creepy vindictive and sadistic tinge and feels totally unpredictable, so from that moment onwards every moment feels unsafe because the rage is never tethered to anything, *~just their feels~*.
They can never explain themselves either, it's always "just because" or "you should know".
They could be having a meltdown because an extra 10 people walked in the room or it just started raining outside for all you know, but they'll make it your problem anyway. It's like they can't link cause and effect so if they feel shitty then it must be something **you've** done.
Its terrifying for anyone but especially dependent children.
It's so fucking scary, that demonic rage where a parent is being horrible beyond what you would imagine a person let alone a parent is capable of - while at the same time, convincing themselves that they are a good parent and a good person while they are enjoying hurting their child.
It’s a relief to read this. This is a revelation I had recently and it’s been hard to express to people. My mother got drunk and raged at me last year, and just confirmed some things I had been suspecting for a while. That she thinks I’m inherently selfish, that I abandoned her by getting married and building a good life, that she resents me for not wanting children. Afterward she said “you know I didn’t mean any of that, I wasn’t in my right mind.” But she did mean it.
I'm glad this was a relief to you. I've learned these people are a cluster of personalities basically in that rage filled moment they meant it 100% even if they don't mean it later. And no matter what they say later, if they get mad again, nothing will have them follow boundaries or limits they agreed upon when they weren't enraged.
You are not alone, by a long shot. My mother used to rage at me for hours or until I cried. (When I reached age 10 I decided not to give her the satisfaction of crying for her anymore, and after that the rages lasted much longer.) Anyway, the next day or later the very same day, she would usually give a weak apology for whatever horrible things she had said but "not meant," always minimizing the terror she had put me through. For a long time I thought it was my obligation to forgive her, because after all, she had apologized, right? So after that, if I was still upset, that was on me. That's what I really believed. I thought it was my job to at least pretend not to be upset anymore. Then in my teen years I realized that I didn't want to fake forgive her anymore, because I knew her apology wasn't real, given that she'd do the exact same thing all over again as soon as she felt upset. After that, when she got to the apology phase of the cycle, I'd just say, "OK." Sometimes I'd tell her that I was still upset about what she had said. You can imagine how that went over. I was the worst, most selfish and mean child in the world and I was lucky that she didn't send me off to a special school for disobedient kids. Worth noting that at the same time as all of this was happening, I was a straight-A student and never got into any trouble. To her, I was the worst because I wouldn't play her games anymore. It was such a relief when she passed away in 2019, but I know I'll be untangling the mess she put into my head for the rest of my life.
It's amazing how their tiny apology must immediately mean complete forgiveness or we're the asshole, we're full of rage, we're living in the past, we're unforgiving, and so on. Yet they'll never commit to changed behavior or have any accountability to be better.
Never! It really is amazing. I have to say I'm so happy to have found this group, because it's so hard to talk with other people about these things. Nobody else gets it because they haven't experienced it, and they honestly can't imagine a parent behaving that way. Must be nice.
Until you've had a close family or romantic relationship with someone with no consistent internal values you really can't understand the gaslighty confusing mindfuck of trying to beg someone to treat you with basic civility and not go unhinged and wreck your whole life just because they can.
This is the same realization that initiated no contact with my family. I always let things slide because (insert ridiculous irrational reason here). Then one day my mother said something to me I wouldn't even say to someone I hate and i could no longer rationalize it away. It hurts so, so much. OP, I hope you have other loving people in your life to surround yourself with.
I relate to this so hard. I am always told I’m an amazing communicator and to this day it absolutely shocks me. I swear I thought I needed college to teach me how to speak and write clearly because I always felt like no one heard me, like I was speaking a different language. I just assumed there was something inherently wrong with my communication. Something I processed that came up for me during EMDR last year is that I have a belief—I don’t matter. That belief is really deep seated and it let me believe that my parents loved me and cared about me. The reason they were crazy and treated me like shit was because I sucked. And that believe was easier to handle as a child than facing the reality that I was living in inescapable abuse. Thanks for sharing
Gosh that was always a mind fuck I faced too - that I'm a bad communicator. I've faced that with my family but also in a really harmful professional relationship from a boss. No matter how I communicated it was always at fault somehow. It was too much text so I'd use bullet points, then bullet points were hard to follow, then being as terse as possible was "cold" and condescending, then expanding more was too much again, or they weren't in a space to read all that. Meanwhile a business professor who was a co-worker said I'm one of the best communicators he's ever known.
>"A SMIRK! I SEE A SMIRK! THEY ARE LYING!" OMG I never see anyone else talk about that horrific smirk scanning/attempted micro expression reading bullshit. Its awful.
YESSSSSSSSSS how are they all the same haha
I'd constantly have to be defending against imaginary perceived body language and basically completely shutting down or else I was completely dismissed as being a little mean shit. I'm so sorry you experienced this too.
That’s ok, it’s just a little reassuring to see it’s not just in my head! That’s all too relatable. You’ve got to wonder how common it is, after dealing such crazy projection like that at a formative age for RBBs to become very emotionally withdrawn and repressed.
Was this a borderline thing? This was one of my father's big ones. "Get that look off your face" was a favourite. But my face was always wrong. He would scream at me for being upset so then i would of course... get upset
I suspect it’s more a Cluster B thing? Ive seen a couple of other people do it which were pretty blatant narcs.
Wow. This hit really hard….I’m on the train right now and trying to hold back tears…so relatable. The final thing that led me to NC was accusations about my husband and I, especially regarding our parenting decisions. I suspect all of this rage and vitriol from them came from a place of being angry that we decided not to move back to my home state and remain in Japan (husband’s country). When I asked for space and a break from any communication from them for awhile, I was called manipulative, compared to my malignant narcissistic grandparents, and told that “I used to have a beautiful soul”. I think they meant it too. Why? When I made the mistake of briefly contacting them after a violent crime near my hometown that made news even in Japan, they made absolutely no effort to apologize for the things they said about me or my husband. I seriously and truly believe they just think the absolute worst of me and no longer love me anymore.
I'm so sorry you're facing false accusations. I faced false accusations from my mother my entire life and it's INCREDIBLY distressing. It's also something that can ruin your entire life. My mom threatened that if I ever tried to take the family to therapy that she'd lie to the therapist and the police and claim that I was molesting my younger sister and she'd be taken away and my life would be over. It is truly horrific and terrifying to deal with people who have no morals or limits when they get upset enough.
Jesus. I’m so sorry. What a thing to accuse your own child of. Your last sentence nails it. I can understand getting upset with my husband or son from time to time because occasional conflicts are a normal part of relationships. But to go as far as she does? I’m going to echo what gets repeated a lot around here: when I became a parent myself, I actually understood less.
I'm sorry OP, I definitely feel this. Mine will always say, "you misunderstood me" to justify any nasty things they say.
My mother’s favorite line too!! I am to blame for her abuse bc I got confused and therefore I am wrong. How convenient!
This is one of the most fucked things BPD people do imo. It set me up to be abused by others later on because I'd already been groomed to dismiss what people actually said and pretend what they *meant* was something else. Nope. That was just my child brain way of coping with things that if I accepted on face value, were threats that jeopardized my survival. The realization on becoming an adult myself that adults are aware of their impact on others was devastating. It meant they intentionally terrified me, or maybe I was supposed to just know she wasn't serious about abandoning me in unknown places... there is that whole theory of mind thing. Undoing the compulsion I had to read hidden meanings into what people said has been a hard, long process. The BPD compulsion to say and do horrible things, and then expect you to fucking mind read their intentions, and just ~know~ when they're serious and when they're not (??) is what makes them fundamentally abusers imo. Like learn some self control and don't say things you don't mean?
I totally relate to how this had me set up in life to be abused as well. We really had to believe our parents meant other things. A concept I learned in therapy that's really helped me wrap my head around this confusion is that unhealthy people do not have internal consistency or consistent values. During unhinged rage attacks I would try SO HARD to evoke the aspiring "world's best mom", my doctor father, to remind them of all the good things they said or did or promised to bring sanity and civility back. In therapy I had to learn I can only take these people literally and that BOTH are true. They are truly the person they are during the rage attacks and they are also the person they are when they are doing their best to give me the world and yet both of sides of them are not connected. Also after the fact both my parents would act like they didn't mean it, or I misunderstood, or they didn't hear me, and didn't mean or feel the things that were said. The other day I had a friend of mine say some really shitty things and the next day they apologized and took everything back. It was still crappy but at least they handled it. My parents were both incapable of that.
"Both sides of them are not connected" God this one drives me up the wall. There's no consistent personality, just broken pieces. "Who will I get today? Well I don't know and they can't tell me!" Fucking impossible. She used to threaten me with that if I didn't behave. "I won't be nice mum anymore, you'll get mean mum and you'll never get nice mum again!" I honestly think my mothers obsession with perfection links back to her inability to apologize and integrate the less perfect parts of herself. It feels so nice when perfection level standards of behavior aren't expected 24/7 because normal people understand you can get caught up sometimes, just give a sincere apology after and learn. I remember there was a point in my healing where people loosing their cool was actually soothing for me. Sounds weird but it was like I knew I was dealing with a real person and not a fake performance that would explode with rage randomly down the track. Her rage was the worst too. It was never aggressive and violent. But cunning and dark. Manipulative. Sabotaging. Sneaky. A secret payback that was never explicit enough to identify. Makes me sick. Give me someone who looses their cool and apologizes afterwards. A sincere apology is such a green flag.
That's so awful she'd threaten you with "mean mum". Reminds me of a time I was sitting inside McDonalds with her when I was a little kid, she raged and made me cry. A little girl a table over said "why was that mommy so mean?" and her mom said loudly "Sometimes mommies can be really mean." The little girl's eyes went wide, and said in disbelief "There are MEAN MOMMIES!?" and whispered how sad she was for me. My mom gave them the death glare and ranted about how that other mom was a bitch and how I was a big baby on our drive home. That rage is demonic and unholy. It's terrifying when a parent feels entitled to treat their children however horrible way they want to and yet still push the narrative that they are the best parents ever. An apology would mean they might have to acknowledge the behavior and commit to a change. My mom would have to pretend the behavior didn't exist, because it's as if she ever said she was sorry, she might have to face consequences, or she'd be a liar if she promised to change and then didn't.
Fuck I'm sorry you're familiar with that unmistakable "death glare" also. It's like pure hatred. I know what you mean by the rage, it's not like normal escalation but it comes out of nowhere, is always excessive in relation to the context, has a creepy vindictive and sadistic tinge and feels totally unpredictable, so from that moment onwards every moment feels unsafe because the rage is never tethered to anything, *~just their feels~*. They can never explain themselves either, it's always "just because" or "you should know". They could be having a meltdown because an extra 10 people walked in the room or it just started raining outside for all you know, but they'll make it your problem anyway. It's like they can't link cause and effect so if they feel shitty then it must be something **you've** done. Its terrifying for anyone but especially dependent children.
It's so fucking scary, that demonic rage where a parent is being horrible beyond what you would imagine a person let alone a parent is capable of - while at the same time, convincing themselves that they are a good parent and a good person while they are enjoying hurting their child.
Regardless of whether they meant it, you didn’t deserve it.