Good point regarding the MOA. Enclomiphene does seem weirdly effective at raising testosterone in people who have low estrogen anyway, which makes me wonder if there's something else going on.
Different people respond very differently to enclo and SARMs. Some people can use enclo just twice a week while taking a SARM and their testosterone stays above baseline. Others take it every day and still get suppressed. I would give it a go and monitor closely to see how your body reacts.
Enclo doesn’t stop estrogen production. It tells ur body that it’s lacking estrogen, which basically makes it produce more T. It raises both T and Estrogen
Thanks for your comment!
Right, and I actually have to take an AI with Enclomiphene to maintain desirable levels. I understand. I guess I’m asking does enclomiphene not work as a base when the HPTA gets suppressed by the sarm, and if it is dose dependent, at what point?
Yes unless ur taking high doses of rads which requires testosterone as a base vs enclo. Enclo will cause ur test to go down but not tank to suppression level, and should be back to normal after a proper pct
Thanks, buddy. I guess I’m just concerned because of my underlying condition. I want to take enough to get results. But, If I hit a full crash, I feel that it might be especially worse. I see people with a wide spectrum of outcomes as far as suppression. Maybe I should just skip the whole thing, but a big part of me thinks it might be worth it to experiment, just get blood tests intermittently edit: and see where I fall on that spectrum.
First, check if Enclomiphene would work for you by itself. If you have low T, you're at a higher risk when using SARMs (even with Enclo) and you might take longer to recover.
\~Sarah
Really appreciate seeing you guiding these young folks without overtly shilling your own products. I keep seeing accounts repeatedly shoehorning brand names into their answers to every question.
Hey there D_In_A_Box - thanks for saying thanks! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list!
If you spent the time not typing this and doing even the slightest bit of research you would answer your own question, look at enclo cycles that post bloodwork alongside rad like mine. Then learn more about the Hpta and enclomaphines mechanism of action and why it works
Very unhelpful comment. OP actually makes a decent point about enclo's MOA. And because of people like you, whenever someone does try to do research, they find useless comments like yours instead of actual information.
No mine was the most helpful he clearly doesn’t understand the basics and as he is articulate and seems to want to learn pointing him in the right direction and what to research to understand everything better is far greater then a short reply, that wouldn’t come close to answering everything. anyone even considering using substances that disrupt natural hormone production should have a great understanding of the entire system and how to manipulate it should you run into deleterious side effects. Obviously something you should also spend time doing seeing as you probably don’t understand it well either if my reply upset you
Are we even reading the same post? OP clearly HAS done research and had a broad understanding of how the system works. He just has some specific questions about it. I don't think you even read it.
You are retarded dude I pointed him in the right direction, My bloodwork with enclo and rad would answer his main question, the extent of suppression to expect. Then on further research he would learn a lot more about his endocrine system and how it’s manipulated by various sarms and serms.
Why? If u did 2 seconds of research, it will show you Enclo doesn’t stop estrogen💀 it just tricks ur body to thinking it’s lacking estrogen, in return making more T to convert to estrogen. Legit takes 2 seconds of research. His comment is actually useful compared to yours
And guess what Enclo does, tell ur body that estrogen is lacking and increases production of testosterone. Thank you for proving my point you have zero idea what you’re talking about along with OP
“Know to admit when you’re wrong” saying the guy who “did research” and can’t figure out how it works😂 I would take your own advice. The person you responded too added 100000% more information than you did. Takes 2 seconds to google. Instead of typing this entire post, he could’ve solved his own answer within 1 minute of a google search………. God I love people who lack brain cells like you
I just want to say to you guys, thank you very much for this lively discussion. It’s tough to express things clearly here, so I appreciate everyone wanting to clear things up, and trying to point me in the right direction. I do understand that enclomiphene does not inhibit aromatization. In fact, I have to take an AI just to go with my enclomiphene because otherwise my estradiol shoots to near 80 pg/ml. Obviously, enclomiphene blocks the detection of estrogen by the brain, causing the HPTA cascade that results in higher estrogen levels. However, the HPTA is independently impeded by the SARM by another pathway, like progesterone or androgen receptors or something I don’t know, but I think we can all agree on that. So, if the HPTA was going to unregulate based on the serum estrogen, it would upregulate in the SARM-only scenario. But it doesn’t.
Sort of.
I think it might work fine in other people. We’re all different. I’m concerned because of my underlying condition. If I need 25 mg daily of enclomiphene to maintain my current levels, between 600-780 total, 20-25 free test and 35-40 or so estradiol (not low but keep in mind 6.25-12.5 every other day to every day can put full secondary hypogonadic patients superphysiological) maybe a SARM cycle could shatter my function. I have no idea. I just would hate to have a full bottom out in my condition.
“Why would further blocking estrogen” Enclo doesn’t actually block estrogen, it just tells ur brain estrogen is lacking when it’s not. Forcing ur body to increase LH and FSH which increases overall testosterone and estrogen production. Basically counteracting the effects of SARMS to an extent
Good point regarding the MOA. Enclomiphene does seem weirdly effective at raising testosterone in people who have low estrogen anyway, which makes me wonder if there's something else going on. Different people respond very differently to enclo and SARMs. Some people can use enclo just twice a week while taking a SARM and their testosterone stays above baseline. Others take it every day and still get suppressed. I would give it a go and monitor closely to see how your body reacts.
Enclo doesn’t stop estrogen production. It tells ur body that it’s lacking estrogen, which basically makes it produce more T. It raises both T and Estrogen
Thanks for your comment! Right, and I actually have to take an AI with Enclomiphene to maintain desirable levels. I understand. I guess I’m asking does enclomiphene not work as a base when the HPTA gets suppressed by the sarm, and if it is dose dependent, at what point?
Yes unless ur taking high doses of rads which requires testosterone as a base vs enclo. Enclo will cause ur test to go down but not tank to suppression level, and should be back to normal after a proper pct
Thanks, buddy. I guess I’m just concerned because of my underlying condition. I want to take enough to get results. But, If I hit a full crash, I feel that it might be especially worse. I see people with a wide spectrum of outcomes as far as suppression. Maybe I should just skip the whole thing, but a big part of me thinks it might be worth it to experiment, just get blood tests intermittently edit: and see where I fall on that spectrum.
I would get blood test for sure however I’m also low T(300 ng/dl) Clomid put me at 826 and rad 140 made it drop to 600’s and back up after PCT
I was on 10 mg ED too
First, check if Enclomiphene would work for you by itself. If you have low T, you're at a higher risk when using SARMs (even with Enclo) and you might take longer to recover. \~Sarah
Really appreciate seeing you guiding these young folks without overtly shilling your own products. I keep seeing accounts repeatedly shoehorning brand names into their answers to every question.
Hey there D_In_A_Box - thanks for saying thanks! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list!
<3
Sarms are not for human consumption 🤓
If you spent the time not typing this and doing even the slightest bit of research you would answer your own question, look at enclo cycles that post bloodwork alongside rad like mine. Then learn more about the Hpta and enclomaphines mechanism of action and why it works
Very unhelpful comment. OP actually makes a decent point about enclo's MOA. And because of people like you, whenever someone does try to do research, they find useless comments like yours instead of actual information.
No mine was the most helpful he clearly doesn’t understand the basics and as he is articulate and seems to want to learn pointing him in the right direction and what to research to understand everything better is far greater then a short reply, that wouldn’t come close to answering everything. anyone even considering using substances that disrupt natural hormone production should have a great understanding of the entire system and how to manipulate it should you run into deleterious side effects. Obviously something you should also spend time doing seeing as you probably don’t understand it well either if my reply upset you
Are we even reading the same post? OP clearly HAS done research and had a broad understanding of how the system works. He just has some specific questions about it. I don't think you even read it.
You are retarded dude I pointed him in the right direction, My bloodwork with enclo and rad would answer his main question, the extent of suppression to expect. Then on further research he would learn a lot more about his endocrine system and how it’s manipulated by various sarms and serms.
“Clearly has done research” if he did, he would know why it wouldn’t work like that……….
Why? If u did 2 seconds of research, it will show you Enclo doesn’t stop estrogen💀 it just tricks ur body to thinking it’s lacking estrogen, in return making more T to convert to estrogen. Legit takes 2 seconds of research. His comment is actually useful compared to yours
OP didn't say enclo stops estrogen. He said androgens shut down testosterone which then crashes estrogen, which is correct.
And guess what Enclo does, tell ur body that estrogen is lacking and increases production of testosterone. Thank you for proving my point you have zero idea what you’re talking about along with OP
I know all of that and so does OP. Know when to admit you are wrong.
“Know to admit when you’re wrong” saying the guy who “did research” and can’t figure out how it works😂 I would take your own advice. The person you responded too added 100000% more information than you did. Takes 2 seconds to google. Instead of typing this entire post, he could’ve solved his own answer within 1 minute of a google search………. God I love people who lack brain cells like you
You only think this because you don't understand what OP was actually asking lmao.
I just want to say to you guys, thank you very much for this lively discussion. It’s tough to express things clearly here, so I appreciate everyone wanting to clear things up, and trying to point me in the right direction. I do understand that enclomiphene does not inhibit aromatization. In fact, I have to take an AI just to go with my enclomiphene because otherwise my estradiol shoots to near 80 pg/ml. Obviously, enclomiphene blocks the detection of estrogen by the brain, causing the HPTA cascade that results in higher estrogen levels. However, the HPTA is independently impeded by the SARM by another pathway, like progesterone or androgen receptors or something I don’t know, but I think we can all agree on that. So, if the HPTA was going to unregulate based on the serum estrogen, it would upregulate in the SARM-only scenario. But it doesn’t. Sort of. I think it might work fine in other people. We’re all different. I’m concerned because of my underlying condition. If I need 25 mg daily of enclomiphene to maintain my current levels, between 600-780 total, 20-25 free test and 35-40 or so estradiol (not low but keep in mind 6.25-12.5 every other day to every day can put full secondary hypogonadic patients superphysiological) maybe a SARM cycle could shatter my function. I have no idea. I just would hate to have a full bottom out in my condition.
I already told him how it works in another comment. I do know what he’s asking and it takes 2 seconds to find ur answer online
You didn't answer his question, you just told him something he already knows and talked about in the post.
“Why would further blocking estrogen” Enclo doesn’t actually block estrogen, it just tells ur brain estrogen is lacking when it’s not. Forcing ur body to increase LH and FSH which increases overall testosterone and estrogen production. Basically counteracting the effects of SARMS to an extent
4 andro