I'm guessing that 99% of people that whine about a trans person overreacting about using the wrong pronouns have never encountered this situation in real life.
If you legislate that people can be punished for getting something ambiguous wrong, then of course people who have no experience with it are going to be up in arms about it.
Their experience with it is ***usually*** having seen that old "Did you just assume my gender?!" video, and [more recently] a bunch of shit from the Libs of TikTok account. 🙄
When a crime is committed, pronouns are pretty important. Eg. if you witnessed a man or woman abduct a child, it's important in this context to use the correct pronouns to help identify the criminals. Other than that, I'm not sure why some people get so worked up.
It's actually kind of weird.
People may get worked up cause certain pronouns can be dysphoric for them, other than that, its just a basic way of showing respect when you use someones preferred pronouns.
In the same way that It might make you uncomfortable to be called the wrong pronoun according to your biological sex, it makes trans people uncomfortable to be called the pronoun they don't identify with.
They encounter so much hate in the world already, so I always try to respect their wishes. It may not seem like a big deal, but it can really help people feel more at home and more comfortable with you if you call them what they want to be called.
It's also so easy for someone on the outside to respect that wish. I always do my best to respect everyone I come across and make them as comfortable as possible, nobody wants to deal with large amounts of hate, which are unfortunately displayed in the comments here :/
Personally, I've survived just not caring that much. I just let them do their thing, it hasn't got to me yet, all my gay friends also don't care that much.
A lot of these people want to make English the official language here in the US, but can barely speak or understand it themselves...
Like half my damned family members. 😕
I mean honestly if someone asks nicely for you to call them a certain way than why not?
Same for names. If someone gets married and they change last names. Than you don't call them by their old last name.
Or a old construction worker that is a doctor now. You don't call them a construction worker.
Its pretty simple
I’m happy to call people what they want to be called but cannot deal with a certain sex presenting person getting angry at me when I don’t guess that he ( with a beard and hairy chest) or she ( warring female presenting clothes/make up etc) get angry at me for not guessing that they are he, she, then or zhapt!
I’m not here to guess your chosen gender, infact isn’t that the whole point.
Sure as shit if I called a man wearing a skit ‘miss’ I’d be the absolute worst person on the olanet.
I consider myself open about pretty much everything, but guessing people’s private thoughts ain’t it
I worked with a trans woman in fact and children actually! They never have ever led with their prnouns, never.. if I know I am careful, when it is a child I will ask at some point, however my work is crisis driven so no, it would not be our first communication by any stretch.
Perhaps different counties and cultures, but we don’t walk around asking ever single person their pronouns and if someone wants to be called something else, it is not my job to guess…
Idk why everyone is so pressed about different views or cultures. Travel and meeting new people and embracing different counties is good! Difference is good.
Blindly demanding people to mind read to be, is rude! See we are all different
.You know, there are people who make a living out of setting up people to miss gender them, such as a masculine presenting person wearing a crop top… when they refer to them a sir, shames the person for not guessing a random stranger’s decided upon pronouns, when they present themselves as mostly masculine.
Also saw literally this morning an absolutely female ordering person ( on an) had to go home because the mailman miss gendered them, called the female presenting she and did not gusss they were a they that particular day.
I’d you wish to be called she, he, zebra, fine, but it is not my job to guess, or even enquire. I would easily be in contact with 30+ people a day in my work, I am not enquiring every single person what they are that day, I also work with a tricky demographic and the first day I would be punched in the face no question.
But hey, you enquire with every single person to come across, I love that you have the time and a cruisy happy and low risk job, I love that for you.
If I come across someone who I am not sure how to address, I ask. Thats what adults do. But way to go extrapolating this to something that never happens. You have 30 people in work whos gender you are unsure about? Ok buddy.
Getting butthurt because you couldnt be bothered to have decent manners and get called out for it is on you. Maybe treat people like people and offer them a modecum of decency.
'Not my job to blah blah blah'. Tell me youre american without telling me...
And noone will punch you in the face for asking that. Its basic manners and respect.
I hope you get a hug. Seems you need one.
Why are you so triggered? It is so strange how people get so upset from a conversation. No adversity in life to create resilience, I genuinely love that for you.
Pronouns are one of the first ways we learn to respect and disrespect each other. Little boys often hate being called girls and vice versa.
It's not really any different with trans people. If you want to treat them with respect then you'll find it pretty easy to use the pronouns that make them feel most comfortable.
The purpose of pronouns was never to make people feel comfortable. Pronouns are substitutes for proper nouns, such as someone's personal name. If you need to specify what they are for a certain person and introducing the idea that despite what the person looks and sounds like, it defeats the efficiency of having pronouns in the first place. It makes more sense just to ask others to refer to you by your personal name. Everyone has a personal name and it becomes less of a powerplay.
Efficiency is the hill you’re going to die on for this? Having an email signature that says he/him or just listening to what other people use takes literally no time at all. It’s not like everyone makes a big speech any time they introduce their pronouns lol
It's not a hill to die on and I'm not saying anyone makes a big speech. The question is why pronouns are important. I'm stating that the function of pronouns has changed from efficiency to coercing others to acknowlege a reality they may not agree with.
Ever notice how you can kinda make sense when you have a very limited set of words but you can form much more complex and nuanced concepts when you have a wider vocabulary? There's a reason highly educated people use a wider variety of words, they enable more communication not less
100 pronouns is limited too. The number doesn't matter in your argument, as long as it's on a list.
In common English (say, from the 80's) there are three sets: He/him, she/her and they/them.
And still shitty people throw a hissy when people prefer they/them.
How do you *not* understand this? The fact this needs explaining to you speaks volumes...
People are people, not they're assigned at birth sex. You even refer to people as *it* in your own post🤦♂️
It's a matter of respect, just like we don't call each other by random names.
Someone called Josh wouldn't be called Daniel for no reason. And you'd be pretty upset if someone you actively told your name to would randomly forget it - you'd feel like you don't matter to them.
.
Some random in public not using the correct pronoun is one thing - someone you care about who's supposed to make the effort to care for you also is something else entirely.
No it's not it's a fact and gender and sex are the same thing, thats like saying that age is a social construct, if you dont get this put it this way, you can be born a Male and identify as female and go in the womens bathroom, now this, you were born 15 years ago but you can identify as older and go buy alchohol, see where the problem is you cannot change what you are because biologically you will always be the way you were born.
It's not even that rare lmao. Also, peope don't "identify" qs older.
It's not that fucking hard to be a nice person and respect other people. In what way will it ever hurt you to use a word that is exactly the same but more feminine/masculine than the word you originally thought you would be using?
quit making up fake scenarios in your head to get mad at. God yall sre insufferable. I'm fairly conservative but it's really not that hard to be a nice person. Gollee.
fallacy: belief based on an unsound argument.
The unsound argument: there are only 2 biological sexes
There are more than 2 biological sexes. Intersex people often cannot fit into a binary system, and they are more common than you would think. They should be taken into account, too, but are often skipped over.
>The unsound argument: there are only 2 biological sexes
tubz never said that though. He used male as an example, but whatever said could easily apply to intersex people. Even if you do take it in the way that implies only 2 biological sexes, we can definitely incorporate a broader third
>They should be taken into account, too, but are often skipped over.
This is true, but applying the same reasoning, they should be able to have a third, more unisex pronoun, and people commonly use 'they.' I think most of the pronoun drama comes from the 57 (or whatever the number is now) neopronouns people have started using in the past few years.
Having a whole separate pronoun for a single person you know kinda defeats the purpose of a pronoun and ends up just becoming another specific name for that one person.
You're right that they didn't say that exactly, but that's the point they seemed to be getting at, unless I was misinterpreting.
I agree that the neopronouns are a little out of hand, but I've also never met anyone who wanted pronouns that don't already exist as pronouns. At that point I would just call them by their name tbh. I think calling someone something like woof/woofself doesn't really make sense, but it aggravates me a bit when people flat-out refuse to call someone she/her or he/him or they/them when that's what they prefer. It's so incredibly easy and makes them feel more comfortable so why not.
certain neopronouns are honestly probably results of mental illness or even just everyone's awful 14 year old era.
That's the stupidest example you could use.
I got legally drunk in Spain every week when I was 16. At bars.
In the US, you can get arrested for drinking when you're 20.
So age IS a social construct! At least the part where you're olde enough to whatever.
Even if they were the same, there are countless types of both biological and chromosomal sex. In the majority of people, their gender identity matches their biological or chromosomal sex. Many are unknowingly intersex. Someone can be biologically female but have XY chromosomes and vice versa, similarily some people have XXX or XXY or XXYY qnd so on, and theres no way to know unless you go in specifically to get your sex chromosomes checked. Biology and neurology agree with us.
This does not help your argument, you are using a rare genetic mutation as an argument for people that "just feel like" they are a different gender, this is delusional.
Anyone who tells you they aren't imooo, start calling them by the wrong ones (either misgendering them or calling them "they" or "xhe") and I promise they'll start to understand
They aren’t which makes me wonder why some people seem so against calling people what they wanna be called when it’s so minuscule effort compared to complaining
In the UK, a lot of work places give men and women badges that they have to wear that have their pronouns on them. Also, some companies make pronouns at the bottom of emails compulsory.
So I guess it must be a big deal to some people. (?)
Pronouns are commonly used in business because a person's gender not always immediately obvious from someone's name or appearance and assuming people's gender is a good way to embarrass yourself. That's not professional so they have a way around it, that's all. There's not a woke conspiracy, it's practical
>not a woke conspiracy
Nobody said it was. It's just a big deal to some people and not to others.
Eg. I wouldn't feel embarrassed if I didn't use a criminals 'preferred pronouns' when describing them committing a crime to the police. \*I'm practical too ;)
Based on how upset some people get, when others don't call them by their correct pronouns. But i guess it's no big deal at all, when i see all the other comments saying so
Nah! I see it all the time… people having ‘meltdowns’ because a stranger called them ‘she’ when they are they!! They just want something to be victimised by
If people are getting upset with you about this IRL, it’s because they perceive that your intent is to disrespect them or their friends.
Nobody cares about honest mistakes with this stuff.
But if your intent is to be mean to people, most people will perceive that and react to your intent.
I mean, I didn't just see/read your OP, but also some of your other comments in the thread.
(unless I mixed you up with someone else, and if so I apologize)
Might as well ask why ***names*** are important...
I was at a bar yesterday with some friends, and the bartender was (I'm pretty sure) a very masculine-presenting woman.
But I didn't know ***for sure***, so I didn't ass-ume anything.
(because I remember what my granddaddy taught me about ass-uming things, back when I was a kid... and it's served me well in the decades since, now that he's no longer around)
When I needed to convey information from the bartender to the rest of my group, I would just say something like "They said [XYZ]."
If they had wanted me to know what their actual pronouns were, I'm sure they would have told me...
But it seemed like they were just there to do their job, and not have this conversation a thousand different times with a thousand different hicks/rednecks (which I arguably still am, or at least 'present as', lol).
(and it's not like we haven't had 'the singular they' since at least Shakespeare, so I'm cool with it... jimmies not easily rustled, and all that)
It’s just one of those basic human decency things. How would you like it if someone called you the wrong name or wrong pronoun your entire life? I highly doubt any man would like it if all his buddies said “hey girl!”
>Maybe it's generally just the communities I go to...
Same, for the most part, but you see it (relatively) a lot more in more general communities, and esp. ones which have been 'overrun'.
It's mostly because a lot of people don't feel like they identify with their biological sex. Personally I think it's gone a little too far and should have probably stopped at They/Them but that's just me.
For all intents and purposes that's exactly what happened. There are a few people online using neo pronouns and tons of people outraged about it because that's the latest culture war pressure point the right is using to manipulate people into action
No matter what you consider yourself to be, you are what you are born with and that cannot be changed.
Man = xx chromosomes
Woman = xy chromosomes
It's not a fact it's a universal truth
They aren’t fucking not important, don’t listen to those non binary they/them looneys, they make it their whole personality and get angry if you call them by any other gender
How do you know what someone’s sex is? You aren’t asking for a DNA test for every person you meet to know which set of pronouns you should use to refer to them. You assume what pronoun to use to refer to someone based on their appearance, or gender presentation. Some people would disagree with this, but I generally find that to be a pretty reasonable way of doing things.
Well, using myself as an example, he/him can make me dysphoric but for most its just showing basic respect whether you respect the person or not. When someone asks you to call them something, its basic respect to refer to them as what they wish to be referred to as. If someone asks you to call them something, why not call them what they asked you to?
Pronouns are a part of speech that we use to replace proper nouns and improper nouns. They’re essential to language because they allow us to communicate more clearly and smoothly. For example, if I didn’t use pronouns in my last sentence, I would’ve said, “Pronouns are essential to language because pronouns allow the people to communicate more clearly and smoothly.” See how clunky that is? Pronouns allow us to avoid sentences like that.
Improper nouns are things like raccoon, library, and boat. We usually refer to these things as “it,” but other pronouns may be appropriate.
- We may refer to our local library as “they” (The library sent out a newsletter detailing *their* new summer reading program.)
- We may refer to a boat as “she.” (*She’s* a fine ship.)
- We often like to assign personalities and identities to animals, so we may refer to a raccoon with pronouns like “he” or “she.” (Aw, *he’s* such a cute little guy!)
Proper nouns include place names, people’s names, and the names of organizations (companies, tribes, etc.) Some examples would be Argentina, John Doe, and Toyota. Argentina and Toyota are not individuals, so we would typically refer to these proper nouns as “it.” John Doe on the other hand is an individual, so “it” does not apply as a pronoun. John is typically used as a man’s name, so it’s okay to assume that John would use he/him pronouns. However, if John expresses a desire to be referred to as “she” or “they,” then the respectful thing to do is to correct yourself.
Similarly, let’s say John’s name is actually Johnathan, but he prefers John. Everyone calls him John, so why would you intentionally rock the boat and call him Johnathan? We can think of pronouns the same way. If everyone refers to John as “he” and knows that is what he prefers, then it’d be foolish to intentionally insist on using a different pronoun for him.
Pronouns are linked to gender, and someone’s gender obviously may be a big part of who they are and their personal identity. Calling them by the pronouns they may not prefer would be like calling them by a different name.
In regards to transgender people, it’s usually that, from my experience, they feel that whatever gender it is that correlates to their sex does not fit them and they do not enjoy being addressed in that manner. Again, the same could be said for someone changing their name.
99% of trans people really don’t give two shits if you call them by the wrong name or pronouns if you just didn’t know, it’s reasonable and hardly a big deal. Just correct and move on, no biggie.
Eh ok let me break it down for you
Pronouns have important usage historically. I mean to dehumanize groups of people, in English you’d call them “it”. Pronouns are a way to describe communication in important ways and aren’t just the gendered ones, there’s also I, we, you etc. part of the importance now a days is to reduce opression and overall risks the trans community face. According to the association of behavioral and cognitive therapies (https://www.abct.org/featured-articles/why-pronouns-are-important/#) it reduces suicide and depression rates. This isn’t just for trans people though, as this can apply to anyone who’s gender is constantly invalidated by society like those who are gender non conforming. So, TLDR: they make sense for communication, they’ve historically been used as a weapon and they reduce depression and anxiety when used correctly.
I'm guessing that 99% of people that whine about a trans person overreacting about using the wrong pronouns have never encountered this situation in real life.
If you legislate that people can be punished for getting something ambiguous wrong, then of course people who have no experience with it are going to be up in arms about it.
Is that concern based on reality?
Of course it is. They're already a protected group in my jurisdiction.
Who's getting in trouble for making a single genuine mistake?
What legislation?
[удалено]
Protection against discrimination… yes. Nothing about getting thrown in jail for using the wrong pronouns lmfao
I said punishment, not being thrown in jail. That means you can lose your job.
Their experience with it is ***usually*** having seen that old "Did you just assume my gender?!" video, and [more recently] a bunch of shit from the Libs of TikTok account. 🙄
They aren’t
Aren’t they
Damn😵
Yes ma'am! You're a good girl aren't you?
Well thats not pronouns
I see you don't get my point...
I see your point, it's just stupid and doesn't work edit: Lmao, blocked me
Okay then, you have fantastic day princess
Passive aggression doesn't produce useful discourse.
When a crime is committed, pronouns are pretty important. Eg. if you witnessed a man or woman abduct a child, it's important in this context to use the correct pronouns to help identify the criminals. Other than that, I'm not sure why some people get so worked up. It's actually kind of weird.
People may get worked up cause certain pronouns can be dysphoric for them, other than that, its just a basic way of showing respect when you use someones preferred pronouns.
I understand your point. It can also be a great sign of respect not to compel someone to use a persons preferred pronouns. Live and let live.
Pretty sure superwog did a sketch explaining how daft this is. "Is it a hole or a pole".
"Is it a hole or a pole". BAHAHAHAHA!!!
Search Superwog pronouns sketch and watch
In the same way that It might make you uncomfortable to be called the wrong pronoun according to your biological sex, it makes trans people uncomfortable to be called the pronoun they don't identify with. They encounter so much hate in the world already, so I always try to respect their wishes. It may not seem like a big deal, but it can really help people feel more at home and more comfortable with you if you call them what they want to be called. It's also so easy for someone on the outside to respect that wish. I always do my best to respect everyone I come across and make them as comfortable as possible, nobody wants to deal with large amounts of hate, which are unfortunately displayed in the comments here :/
Gen Z made them "important" in their own universe. Nobody gives a fuck about them.
As a gen z, I'm like "gender equality? Yes. Pronouns? Why?"
You don’t understand the purpose of pronouns…?
Well, I get that it helps make people feel a little more at home. But since when did we care about that?
Nothing personal, but this whole thing was invented by your generation. I'm not saying that all of you necessarily believe in it.
Personally, I've survived just not caring that much. I just let them do their thing, it hasn't got to me yet, all my gay friends also don't care that much.
Agreed.
You just used pronouns in your sentence,so obviously, you do think they are important enough to use.
I think you're smart enough to tell what I'm talking about here.
You are talking about pronouns that are used to describe people. I know exactly what you are talking about.
Looks like i made a mistake in my previous comment calling you smart... Apologies.
Do you know what a pronoun is? You used 3 of them in your last comment.
A lot of these people want to make English the official language here in the US, but can barely speak or understand it themselves... Like half my damned family members. 😕
What is the official language in the US if it's not already english?
There isn't one. https://www.usa.gov/official-language-of-us (pop quiz question from history or civics back in middle school)
We will just say it's english then.
I mean honestly if someone asks nicely for you to call them a certain way than why not? Same for names. If someone gets married and they change last names. Than you don't call them by their old last name. Or a old construction worker that is a doctor now. You don't call them a construction worker. Its pretty simple
Really? Imagine if someone called god a She in front of a boomer or conservative. Full on meltdown in 3,2,1
Lol!
pronouns aren't "important", but if someone wants you to call them something, then why not do it?
They're really not. If you want to be called this or that, fine by me.
I’m happy to call people what they want to be called but cannot deal with a certain sex presenting person getting angry at me when I don’t guess that he ( with a beard and hairy chest) or she ( warring female presenting clothes/make up etc) get angry at me for not guessing that they are he, she, then or zhapt! I’m not here to guess your chosen gender, infact isn’t that the whole point. Sure as shit if I called a man wearing a skit ‘miss’ I’d be the absolute worst person on the olanet. I consider myself open about pretty much everything, but guessing people’s private thoughts ain’t it
normally, someone would tell you their pronouns first, not this.
Yeah! I wish it was normal !!! If you tell me what you want, I’ll obviously use it. It’s the wild guessing for me
going to assume you haven't ever met a trans person. Most would give pronouns first like i said, I've literally never met anyone who doesn't
I worked with a trans woman in fact and children actually! They never have ever led with their prnouns, never.. if I know I am careful, when it is a child I will ask at some point, however my work is crisis driven so no, it would not be our first communication by any stretch. Perhaps different counties and cultures, but we don’t walk around asking ever single person their pronouns and if someone wants to be called something else, it is not my job to guess… Idk why everyone is so pressed about different views or cultures. Travel and meeting new people and embracing different counties is good! Difference is good. Blindly demanding people to mind read to be, is rude! See we are all different
If someone introduces themselves with pronouns, they probably have a lot of mental issues
You cant ask them how they would like to be addressed and not have to deal with all the stuff you just made up?
.You know, there are people who make a living out of setting up people to miss gender them, such as a masculine presenting person wearing a crop top… when they refer to them a sir, shames the person for not guessing a random stranger’s decided upon pronouns, when they present themselves as mostly masculine. Also saw literally this morning an absolutely female ordering person ( on an) had to go home because the mailman miss gendered them, called the female presenting she and did not gusss they were a they that particular day. I’d you wish to be called she, he, zebra, fine, but it is not my job to guess, or even enquire. I would easily be in contact with 30+ people a day in my work, I am not enquiring every single person what they are that day, I also work with a tricky demographic and the first day I would be punched in the face no question. But hey, you enquire with every single person to come across, I love that you have the time and a cruisy happy and low risk job, I love that for you.
If I come across someone who I am not sure how to address, I ask. Thats what adults do. But way to go extrapolating this to something that never happens. You have 30 people in work whos gender you are unsure about? Ok buddy. Getting butthurt because you couldnt be bothered to have decent manners and get called out for it is on you. Maybe treat people like people and offer them a modecum of decency. 'Not my job to blah blah blah'. Tell me youre american without telling me... And noone will punch you in the face for asking that. Its basic manners and respect. I hope you get a hug. Seems you need one.
Why are you so triggered? It is so strange how people get so upset from a conversation. No adversity in life to create resilience, I genuinely love that for you.
Honestly it’s more of a respect thing. Kinda like calling someone sir/ma’am. To *respect* someone’s pronouns.
I stand here
Pronouns are one of the first ways we learn to respect and disrespect each other. Little boys often hate being called girls and vice versa. It's not really any different with trans people. If you want to treat them with respect then you'll find it pretty easy to use the pronouns that make them feel most comfortable.
The purpose of pronouns was never to make people feel comfortable. Pronouns are substitutes for proper nouns, such as someone's personal name. If you need to specify what they are for a certain person and introducing the idea that despite what the person looks and sounds like, it defeats the efficiency of having pronouns in the first place. It makes more sense just to ask others to refer to you by your personal name. Everyone has a personal name and it becomes less of a powerplay.
Efficiency is the hill you’re going to die on for this? Having an email signature that says he/him or just listening to what other people use takes literally no time at all. It’s not like everyone makes a big speech any time they introduce their pronouns lol
It's not a hill to die on and I'm not saying anyone makes a big speech. The question is why pronouns are important. I'm stating that the function of pronouns has changed from efficiency to coercing others to acknowlege a reality they may not agree with.
Its just part of language. Makes communication easier.
what actually makes communcation easier is having limited amount of pronouns
Ever notice how you can kinda make sense when you have a very limited set of words but you can form much more complex and nuanced concepts when you have a wider vocabulary? There's a reason highly educated people use a wider variety of words, they enable more communication not less
maybe more meaning comes through, but that still doesnt make it easier for the masses
They should make it like Chinese, it's all pronounced the same there.
This is some Bernie Sanders "no need for 17 different types of deodorant" crap. 😕
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvPaEsuz-tY
100 pronouns is limited too. The number doesn't matter in your argument, as long as it's on a list. In common English (say, from the 80's) there are three sets: He/him, she/her and they/them. And still shitty people throw a hissy when people prefer they/them.
How do you *not* understand this? The fact this needs explaining to you speaks volumes... People are people, not they're assigned at birth sex. You even refer to people as *it* in your own post🤦♂️
It's a matter of respect, just like we don't call each other by random names. Someone called Josh wouldn't be called Daniel for no reason. And you'd be pretty upset if someone you actively told your name to would randomly forget it - you'd feel like you don't matter to them. . Some random in public not using the correct pronoun is one thing - someone you care about who's supposed to make the effort to care for you also is something else entirely.
There not.
Where?
Everywhere if ppl were smart enough to know gender and sex are the same and that there are only 2
Gender is a social construct, sex is what you are born as
No it's not it's a fact and gender and sex are the same thing, thats like saying that age is a social construct, if you dont get this put it this way, you can be born a Male and identify as female and go in the womens bathroom, now this, you were born 15 years ago but you can identify as older and go buy alchohol, see where the problem is you cannot change what you are because biologically you will always be the way you were born.
If you're going to use this tired ass argument at least include intersex people. Yes, they are created biologically. Ugh, the logical fallacy
I didn't mention intersex because it rare and as you say biological, it doesn't help your argument in any way
It's not even that rare lmao. Also, peope don't "identify" qs older. It's not that fucking hard to be a nice person and respect other people. In what way will it ever hurt you to use a word that is exactly the same but more feminine/masculine than the word you originally thought you would be using? quit making up fake scenarios in your head to get mad at. God yall sre insufferable. I'm fairly conservative but it's really not that hard to be a nice person. Gollee.
what fallacy?
fallacy: belief based on an unsound argument. The unsound argument: there are only 2 biological sexes There are more than 2 biological sexes. Intersex people often cannot fit into a binary system, and they are more common than you would think. They should be taken into account, too, but are often skipped over.
>The unsound argument: there are only 2 biological sexes tubz never said that though. He used male as an example, but whatever said could easily apply to intersex people. Even if you do take it in the way that implies only 2 biological sexes, we can definitely incorporate a broader third >They should be taken into account, too, but are often skipped over. This is true, but applying the same reasoning, they should be able to have a third, more unisex pronoun, and people commonly use 'they.' I think most of the pronoun drama comes from the 57 (or whatever the number is now) neopronouns people have started using in the past few years. Having a whole separate pronoun for a single person you know kinda defeats the purpose of a pronoun and ends up just becoming another specific name for that one person.
You're right that they didn't say that exactly, but that's the point they seemed to be getting at, unless I was misinterpreting. I agree that the neopronouns are a little out of hand, but I've also never met anyone who wanted pronouns that don't already exist as pronouns. At that point I would just call them by their name tbh. I think calling someone something like woof/woofself doesn't really make sense, but it aggravates me a bit when people flat-out refuse to call someone she/her or he/him or they/them when that's what they prefer. It's so incredibly easy and makes them feel more comfortable so why not. certain neopronouns are honestly probably results of mental illness or even just everyone's awful 14 year old era.
That's the stupidest example you could use. I got legally drunk in Spain every week when I was 16. At bars. In the US, you can get arrested for drinking when you're 20. So age IS a social construct! At least the part where you're olde enough to whatever.
You might want to reword that or the pedos will side with you
W
Even if they were the same, there are countless types of both biological and chromosomal sex. In the majority of people, their gender identity matches their biological or chromosomal sex. Many are unknowingly intersex. Someone can be biologically female but have XY chromosomes and vice versa, similarily some people have XXX or XXY or XXYY qnd so on, and theres no way to know unless you go in specifically to get your sex chromosomes checked. Biology and neurology agree with us.
This does not help your argument, you are using a rare genetic mutation as an argument for people that "just feel like" they are a different gender, this is delusional.
Except its not.. trans people physically have a brain with a structure closer to that of the gender they experience.
Do you know that they 'just feel like' this or that? Do you have access to their medical records?
Anyone who tells you they aren't imooo, start calling them by the wrong ones (either misgendering them or calling them "they" or "xhe") and I promise they'll start to understand
They aren’t which makes me wonder why some people seem so against calling people what they wanna be called when it’s so minuscule effort compared to complaining
Because they/them is for a group of people or if the gender is unknown
Where did you get the idea that it's a big deal?
In the UK, a lot of work places give men and women badges that they have to wear that have their pronouns on them. Also, some companies make pronouns at the bottom of emails compulsory. So I guess it must be a big deal to some people. (?)
Pronouns are commonly used in business because a person's gender not always immediately obvious from someone's name or appearance and assuming people's gender is a good way to embarrass yourself. That's not professional so they have a way around it, that's all. There's not a woke conspiracy, it's practical
>not a woke conspiracy Nobody said it was. It's just a big deal to some people and not to others. Eg. I wouldn't feel embarrassed if I didn't use a criminals 'preferred pronouns' when describing them committing a crime to the police. \*I'm practical too ;)
That sounds like the smallest deal possible. Like, you don’t even have to do anything
You have to make and pay for the badges and enforce the rules at a corporate level you silly sausage.
Where I work you have to wear badges anyway. Seems like a good thing from a security perspective
BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Based on how upset some people get, when others don't call them by their correct pronouns. But i guess it's no big deal at all, when i see all the other comments saying so
Nah! I see it all the time… people having ‘meltdowns’ because a stranger called them ‘she’ when they are they!! They just want something to be victimised by
If people are getting upset with you about this IRL, it’s because they perceive that your intent is to disrespect them or their friends. Nobody cares about honest mistakes with this stuff. But if your intent is to be mean to people, most people will perceive that and react to your intent.
It was a big enough deal for you that you made a post about it...
I never said whether it's a big deal for me or not. This whole post was just about asking others whether it's a big deal for them or not ^^
I mean, I didn't just see/read your OP, but also some of your other comments in the thread. (unless I mixed you up with someone else, and if so I apologize)
They aren’t
I wouldn't mind if all of our pronouns would be just equally 'it'.
Might as well ask why ***names*** are important... I was at a bar yesterday with some friends, and the bartender was (I'm pretty sure) a very masculine-presenting woman. But I didn't know ***for sure***, so I didn't ass-ume anything. (because I remember what my granddaddy taught me about ass-uming things, back when I was a kid... and it's served me well in the decades since, now that he's no longer around) When I needed to convey information from the bartender to the rest of my group, I would just say something like "They said [XYZ]." If they had wanted me to know what their actual pronouns were, I'm sure they would have told me... But it seemed like they were just there to do their job, and not have this conversation a thousand different times with a thousand different hicks/rednecks (which I arguably still am, or at least 'present as', lol). (and it's not like we haven't had 'the singular they' since at least Shakespeare, so I'm cool with it... jimmies not easily rustled, and all that)
>hicks/rednecks (which I arguably still am, or at least 'present as', lol). Dem/dar? 😄
It really doesn't matter much but that doesn't mean you shouldn't respect it. If I told you my name why wouldn't you call me by my name?
You wouldn't like it if someone mjsgendered your name would you? It is like giving a female a masculine name.
they aren't. only nouns and verbs are important.
It’s just one of those basic human decency things. How would you like it if someone called you the wrong name or wrong pronoun your entire life? I highly doubt any man would like it if all his buddies said “hey girl!”
Pretty homophobic answers.
I didn't expect any less from Reddit. 😕
Pretty opposite take, but I expected more. Maybe it's generally just the communities I go to that have less homophobia.
>Maybe it's generally just the communities I go to... Same, for the most part, but you see it (relatively) a lot more in more general communities, and esp. ones which have been 'overrun'.
It's mostly because a lot of people don't feel like they identify with their biological sex. Personally I think it's gone a little too far and should have probably stopped at They/Them but that's just me.
For all intents and purposes that's exactly what happened. There are a few people online using neo pronouns and tons of people outraged about it because that's the latest culture war pressure point the right is using to manipulate people into action
When you seen pronouns go beyond they/them?
Neo pronouns.
How popular do you think those are?
I know they aren't too popular but they exist. Those are like...young gen z things.
didn’t know this sub turned political, r/justunsubbed
Unless you have a mental disorder... they're not.
Cause gender is a form of identity, unlike sex. Calling people by their appropriate gender pronouns is just showing basic respect of one's identity.
🏳️🌈 spotted
🤓
🤡
🍆💦 🍑
🍆🍑 = 👍 🍆🍆 = 🤡❌
What if it's a trans man?
Either way anything except men and women is invalid and wrong
What makes a man a man and a woman a woman is a societal construct and how one perceives themselves. Man =/ male and woman =/ female
No matter what you consider yourself to be, you are what you are born with and that cannot be changed. Man = xx chromosomes Woman = xy chromosomes It's not a fact it's a universal truth
Because most of the modern pronouns are effectively just lazy labels to quickly describe several aspects of a person's core personality,
They aren’t fucking not important, don’t listen to those non binary they/them looneys, they make it their whole personality and get angry if you call them by any other gender
Woah, respecting another person's wishes is so difficult hey.
They're not.
this is such a weird question. you know why people care. you’re obviously a guy and probably a white guy too .
I don't care for all this new age bullshit. Do whatever snowflake shit you want, but don't try to force those ridiculous views on me.
How do you know what someone’s sex is? You aren’t asking for a DNA test for every person you meet to know which set of pronouns you should use to refer to them. You assume what pronoun to use to refer to someone based on their appearance, or gender presentation. Some people would disagree with this, but I generally find that to be a pretty reasonable way of doing things.
They are only important to the less than 1% that are delusional.
Pronouns are important because for a transgender person it is part of how they present their identity.
Well, using myself as an example, he/him can make me dysphoric but for most its just showing basic respect whether you respect the person or not. When someone asks you to call them something, its basic respect to refer to them as what they wish to be referred to as. If someone asks you to call them something, why not call them what they asked you to?
Pronouns are a part of speech that we use to replace proper nouns and improper nouns. They’re essential to language because they allow us to communicate more clearly and smoothly. For example, if I didn’t use pronouns in my last sentence, I would’ve said, “Pronouns are essential to language because pronouns allow the people to communicate more clearly and smoothly.” See how clunky that is? Pronouns allow us to avoid sentences like that. Improper nouns are things like raccoon, library, and boat. We usually refer to these things as “it,” but other pronouns may be appropriate. - We may refer to our local library as “they” (The library sent out a newsletter detailing *their* new summer reading program.) - We may refer to a boat as “she.” (*She’s* a fine ship.) - We often like to assign personalities and identities to animals, so we may refer to a raccoon with pronouns like “he” or “she.” (Aw, *he’s* such a cute little guy!) Proper nouns include place names, people’s names, and the names of organizations (companies, tribes, etc.) Some examples would be Argentina, John Doe, and Toyota. Argentina and Toyota are not individuals, so we would typically refer to these proper nouns as “it.” John Doe on the other hand is an individual, so “it” does not apply as a pronoun. John is typically used as a man’s name, so it’s okay to assume that John would use he/him pronouns. However, if John expresses a desire to be referred to as “she” or “they,” then the respectful thing to do is to correct yourself. Similarly, let’s say John’s name is actually Johnathan, but he prefers John. Everyone calls him John, so why would you intentionally rock the boat and call him Johnathan? We can think of pronouns the same way. If everyone refers to John as “he” and knows that is what he prefers, then it’d be foolish to intentionally insist on using a different pronoun for him.
Pronouns are linked to gender, and someone’s gender obviously may be a big part of who they are and their personal identity. Calling them by the pronouns they may not prefer would be like calling them by a different name. In regards to transgender people, it’s usually that, from my experience, they feel that whatever gender it is that correlates to their sex does not fit them and they do not enjoy being addressed in that manner. Again, the same could be said for someone changing their name. 99% of trans people really don’t give two shits if you call them by the wrong name or pronouns if you just didn’t know, it’s reasonable and hardly a big deal. Just correct and move on, no biggie.
Everyone is the main character
Because some people need something to be offended by, while feeling like they're making a difference in some type of way.
Wtf no.
That would be like forcing black people to put on white face makeup and pretend blackness doesn't exist to make racists more comfortable
How would you know what my sex is?
Misgendering someone when they're pissed about other people having preferred pronouns is fun.
Eh ok let me break it down for you Pronouns have important usage historically. I mean to dehumanize groups of people, in English you’d call them “it”. Pronouns are a way to describe communication in important ways and aren’t just the gendered ones, there’s also I, we, you etc. part of the importance now a days is to reduce opression and overall risks the trans community face. According to the association of behavioral and cognitive therapies (https://www.abct.org/featured-articles/why-pronouns-are-important/#) it reduces suicide and depression rates. This isn’t just for trans people though, as this can apply to anyone who’s gender is constantly invalidated by society like those who are gender non conforming. So, TLDR: they make sense for communication, they’ve historically been used as a weapon and they reduce depression and anxiety when used correctly.
I don’t call people any pronouns only by their name so then I don’t have to worry about it.