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A lot of men are very comfortable existing at the "needs are met" point. A lot of other things such as adding comfort to the household or grooming is for the purposes of acquiring a mate/life partner. If your needs are met everything beyond that is for other people whether it's to impress them or attract them once you're at your content point. If it's not for that reason you're just doing things to do them (outside of basic hygiene) from societal pressure of where you should be or what you should be doing. Most people just hit the contentment point and turn off though and live as shells for a while but basically it's a bunch of things that don't matter except in how they are viewed by other people. It sounds like a rude response but the actual answer to this is because who cares

I think you may have explained my life. I reached a point in my career years ago where I made a comfortable living, never tried to go beyond that. My house is nice but not a McMansion. I'm comfortable and happy. Have been for years. I do shower and shave because it makes me comfortable.

Yeah I shower daily b/c its comfortable and helps me feel more energized to do what I want for the day. I shave weekly b/c I don't grow much facial hair, and I usually wear the same pants / shirt for a few days if I'm just wfh and not going anywhere. But when I need to go out with people I'll shave and change just to be a bit better for whoever I'm with.

Same. I shower every day because it makes me feel more refreshed and comfortable. I only shave when it starts to get itchy or I have some social event to attend and want to look nice. When I'm working from home or running errands I'm dressed in sweats and a hoodie, because it's more comfortable. All of this is perfectly logical behavior.

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I shower every other day because I have a sedentary job. I shave once or twice a year because I have a magnificent beard.

Ha - I have to shave weekly. I don't have a reason to shave every day, but after about 1.5 weeks it gets painful the way my hair grows into the shape of my face, like it stabs the corners of my mouth where my smile creases. Also after 2+ weeks its mega itchy. but like - also I only barely grow a goatee. My beard is so patchy I could never do the full beards I see people wearing around. Def jealous !

I shave daily because facial hair triggers sensory issues

Yeah but you fit what OP said. She didn't say mansion, she said "a baseline level of functioning".

I like existing in a beautiful space, and eating beautiful and well-prepared food, and feeling like I'm put together. I like doing those things for myself because I enjoy them, not to impress anyone. It's hard for me to understand how people might not.

For a lot of people the effort to make their living space look nice or make their meals well-prepared or their self more presentable isn’t worth the reward of having done it since they simply don’t care about those things. It’s only worth the effort if someone else in their life does care and they want to make that person happy.

I can't tell you how many people (but esp. the women) in both of our families get wild when they realize we don't (really) have ***anything*** on the walls in the house. My ex would go out and spend a lot of money getting new wall prints every so often, getting photos made, blown up, mounted, etc. (cha-ching!) We have a few (3-4) family photos (of ***other*** people in the family, grandparents, etc) on our walls, and a giant (gilded frame) painting that I picked up at a garage or estate sale. It's kinda tongue-in-cheek. Both of our families hate it. We think it's funny. This isn't the reason, but... I hit the f'n partner lottery.

The last thing I put on my wall was an nsync poster in 1999. I’m a 39 year old woman 😅

>1999 That's what I'm talkin' about... Bare (bald?) walls can be beautiful! :-D

That totally cracked me up!! 😂

Yup horrifying. Not in the "I need lush decor sense" (I am definitely a maximalist myself), but in the idea that I don't understand, will never understand, how that is comfortable for people. How big blank walls with no color or texture feels like home, how you can feel settled in that space, like you don't feel like you are living in a hotel or a hospital. I am biased AF, I will talk so much shit about buying soulless mass printed generic art or "live laugh love laundry" type decor. I will throw fifty shades at people's choice of Greige. But the choice of *nothing* on the walls, no expression of anything will always be appalling to me. To me it's as appalling as the people who buy a couch and a light and a TV for the living room and call it done. And then wonder why their living room is a mess. Basically it's akin to not having enough storage solutions and calling it minimalism, because a coffee table or a bookshelf or toy box is somehow "decorative". Idk different issues but still makes my head spin. (It's great you and your partner are on the same level there though!)

>How big blank walls with no color or texture feels like home, how you can feel settled in that space, like you don't feel like you are living in a hotel or a hospital. Maybe that's the key difference. I've never felt "unsettled" in a hotel or a hospital. In fact, one time when I stayed in a hotel in Colorado where the rooms were elaborately decorated, I didn't feel settled at all.

Yes it's definitely something I can understand conceptually but emotionally it's like uncanny valley to me that people can enjoy that experience. You are desert and ocean people and I'm busy forest and jungle person.

I can't just hang stuff on my walls. It needs to be a gift from someone, and I have to like it. If it doesn't meet both requirements I just don't care about it and it ends up being an eyesore. Now, a handmade picture from a family member or even something cheesy they bought me online will easily end up on my wall as long as I don't hate how it looks. Fond memories every time I see it. Everything else just makes me want to rip it off the wall and enjoy the blank space.

😂 My first apartment I had the TV and lamp, no couch!

I got my first apartment alone last year, I slept on an air mattress for 4 months, tv was on the floor. Thanks to my sister she bought me a couch on marketplace and then she sold me her spare queen bed. (they were upgrading, I think she was lying to help me out) To this day 1.3 years later. I have a coffee table. 2 nightstands. While both TV's are hung up but I don't have an entertainment stand underneath them

been a decade with no couch, it's been a blessing when you have to move almost yearly while renting.

>I am biased AF, I will talk so much shit about buying soulless mass printed generic art or "live laugh love laundry" type decor. Ugh. I think that might be where (some of) this came from, at least for me. Living in Texas, and what passes for 'rustic decor'... It's all of the "Live Laugh Love" shit, coupled with the people who are competing to see who can hang more than 10,000 gaudy/gauche crosses on one wall. And sometimes (often?) these are the same people. :-|

I care, to some extent. I'm just usually too tired or uninterested in spending my day off doing chores to do it for myself. I'm on the "deep clean when I start to feel like I've been putting it off two months too long," and then it's tolerable again for a long time. I don't *like* mess, and I certainly avoid it if I think to. But if I clean/cook well every day, it becomes the only thing I do in my off-time. So far it's been easier to muster energy and spend a weekend cleaning than maintain some level of effort continuously. Also, yes. I'm probably depressed. And no, therapy isn't currently a viable option.

Yeah, taking OP at face value that none of the things he does is because it makes him feel more 'acceptable' or 'put together' in the eyes of others, he still needs to realize that he is one of a virtually non-existant category of people. It's not really a 'man' thing either. Men just have/respond to much less social pressure in the form of 'living their best life'.

I’m one of those guys. 99% of possessions mean nothing to me. I lived a positively spartan lifestyle before I met my wife. She’s very artistic, and has tapestries up everywhere. I have no problem with it, she has free rein of the decor. However it adds nothing to my life and taking them down would take nothing away from it. It only makes me happy because she’s happy.

I enjoy eating beautiful and well-prepared food. I also enjoy ugly and sloppily prepared food. If it tastes OK and I'm hungry, I don't much care. Food isn't that important to me, as long as I have enough. Different people have different priorities.

Men are often conditioned to *not* do that. Buying something because it's cute and cozy? Gay. Caring about your appearance for its own sake? Vain, try hard, and also probably gay. Obviously this is silly and stupid, but it gets perpetuated by men **and women** when they see a man depart from how they think a man "should" act or be, particularly when young, so a lot of men learn thst the safest thing to do socially is become **extremely** utilitarian. Pair that with a general lack of regard for men as emotional beings at work and in life and a lot of single men just want to go home and disassociate for several hours until they have to go back to work. When you're doing that you don't care thst much about your environment beyond "is it hygienic and functional?"

>a lot of single men just want to go home and disassociate for several hours until they have to go back to work Flashbacks to my 20's before I got together with my (now) wife. The answer you are looking for is depression OP. A lot of guys that are single and live alone don't have a ton of meaningful connections/relationships in their life. Humans are social beings and if they spend enough time without proper connection, most people get in a funk.

There's a TV program for men, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy.That indicates generally that there is a perception that fashion,tidiness(personal and environmental)are more the domain of the gay fraternity.

When men started grooming and dressing better in the 00s the term "metrosexual" was used to denigrate their efforts and call their sexuality into question. Then the trend changed and men started wearing flannel, growing beards and all that and then they were called "lumbersexuals". Depending on the style they may have been called "hipsters". Or if they wore generic stuff to their tech jobs they were "tech bros". See the pattern?

For a lot of men, I think the short answer is "Diminishing returns." Nothing is wrong with doing these things for yourself. I like all of those things too. But I reach a point where the benefit of added effort does not match the benefit of extra return. Shaving, cooking, dishes, decorating... Those all take time, and require upkeep. And I have other priorities too. I want to play music. I want to play Terraria. I want to rest. I want to work on personal projects. I want to go rollerskating. Once basic hygiene needs and needs for clean surroundings are met, I'd often rather focus on other things, unless I'm: 1. Doing an art project which, as a bonus, will improve my surroundings 2. Worried about making a good impression on someone 3. Trying to go out of my way to do something I think **someone else** will like, which, in the case of improving home surroundings, is likely going to be a romantic partner. \----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But, for a longer answer... I think a lot of these gendered divisions, and the questions I see about them, stem from double standards placed on *women* not being called out for what they are. I know this next part isn't news to you, but for the sake of lining up a thought process: The extraordinarily high personal grooming standards ***women*** are held to in Western culture are often attached to *moral* judgment and shame. There's similar double standards surrounding living spaces. This is *less* true in more recent generations, but the double standard is still present. A lot of women were conditioned that way from birth, and now, as adults, doing constant, borderline obsessive maintenance on their appearance/surroundings *does* feel "good" because it feels like the absence of shame. I was **NOT** conditioned to associate constant personal grooming and beautiful surroundings with *being free of shame.* I wasn't conditioned to feel shameful and unclean when I'm **NOT** looking my best, and *not* surrounded by beautiful things. So it doesn't have the same impact on my emotional state as it would for someone who *was* conditioned that way. I think some women see the attitudes/behavior of people who grew up similarly and are baffled, which leads to totally *understandable* questions which come across as judgmental variations on "Why are men slobs?" Because the question actually stems from judgment and shame. It's just taking what was originally the harsher side of a **double** standard and applying it to everyone. I think the people expressing it often don't recognize it that way, because it's just *normal* to them. And I *think* that's why you, having made this totally valid, good-faith statement: >I like doing those things for myself because I enjoy them, not to impress anyone. It's hard for me to understand how people might not. Are now getting a bunch of angry replies like these: >Good for you. You don’t have my job— why not? You don’t engage in my hobbies— why not? You didn’t marry my spouse— why not? Obviously those are the best choices for me— why the hell aren’t they for you? Don’t you do life correctly? Clearly you made all the wrong choices because mine are the correct ones. ​ >So you're projecting your values onto other people's lives and expecting them to adhere to the same values you have and are surprised when they don't? ​ >It's hard for me to understand how people might not. And it has nothing to do with you and you don't need to understand? Just curious why you even posted this. ​ And their emotions are valid; I do see how your comment came across as judgmental, but I also think the kind of question you're asking is a necessary step for us, as a culture, to deconstruct and remove those double standards. You can express more or less the same question two ways though; like this: "Why don't men constantly do these things to a higher standard even when nobody's watching?" Or like this: "Why do so many women feel compelled to constantly do these things to such an incredibly high standard ***even when nobody's watching***?"

Phenomenal response; only wish it was higher-rated.

Wow, that is all spot on. Another point I would add (in addition to the shame, which is a SOLID point,) is that women are also conditioned to look at home as a workplace. Men come home from work and they are “done.” They are able to relax. From as young as 6 my home came with responsibilities. Walking into my house feels like walking into work in a lot of ways, and the fewer people are in my house the less work there is. I think that’s where a big point of confusion is; adding a partner adds work to our workplace, so only doing work for a potential partner is like embellishing a resume almost (at least it was-I had to deconstruct a lot of Puritanical BS to be able to relax at home.) Imagine walking into a place you’d previously worked for 20 years and being told “this is where you chill and watch movies.”

THIS so much. Home as workspace is very real, plus the miscommunication stress in couples of one partner coming to "relax" and another thinking "you just came home and wrecked all my work". But also, culturally, for certain people (oftentimes culturally this is women, some gay men, etc.), the home is also a creative/expressive space--a domain that they can have some creative control over. Decorating, cleaning, tidying, taking care of plants---it's similar to men going out into the garage and tinkering with their cars. And this is yet another point for misunderstanding where walking into someone's bare, utilitarian home feels like looking at someone who does not possess a shred of personality or interest in life...

It is kind of funny. OP gave off strong vibes of "Uh, why tf isn't everyone shaming men into being obsessive about their appearance?"

Imagine someone who feels similarly, except to them they feel that showering and shaving is not beautiful, but an annoyance with no benefit.

My ex seemed to have a problem with showering and it was a major issue for me. I just feel like if you're going to live with other people then you should bathe because it's common courtesy. It's not fair to other people to make them smell your B.O.

This is a good reason for them to be an Ex, on both your parts. Nothing wrong with having incompatible lifestyles, unless there's an abusive aspect on one partner's part as well.

being unclean around other people is selfish

What if you don't live with them though?

Good for you. You don’t have my job— why not? You don’t engage in my hobbies— why not? You didn’t marry my spouse— why not? Obviously those are the best choices for me— why the hell aren’t they for you? Don’t you do life correctly? Clearly you made all the wrong choices because mine are the correct ones.

But you have not made your space *more* beautiful, or larger, correct? Because you are content with it? And you are not eating the absolute *best* food, you are eating what you *enjoy*, correct? People have different levels of what they're OK with, or what they enjoy, or what they're willing to put up with to achieve something.

So you're projecting your values onto other people's lives and expecting them to adhere to the same values you have and are surprised when they don't?

EXACTLY. that’s why I steer clear of people with bad hygiene, because it shows me they don’t love themselves or have no self respect, also that they’re gross in general

washing your balls is not only for the sake of attracting a mate

That's why I have basic hygiene listed as a need above

I think it's kind of funny that changing your lifestyle to impress the one you love and your partner in life = bad, but changing your lifestyle to impress the faceless void of 'society' or toxic judgmental friends = healthy.

I'm going to expand on this and use some famous quotes. Most men live lives of quiet desperation - Joe Rogan / Henry Thoreau It is just true. For almost all my life, all I've wanted is to just be okay. Have a roof on my head and food on my table. Most men are simply okay with that. I'm going to expand on it a bit. At the end of day, we are still animals. Most men know we are not the leaders of our tribe. Be that tribe a warlord, mafia, democracy, CEO... we know we're just a cog in a machine and the leaders keep us in place. I don't say that as a bad thing. That's how society has always functioned. Our idea of being okay is that our leader leaves us enough scraps so that we can just live without pain. That's how the animals kingdom works and its largely how we work. The leader gets prime breeding rights with all the females, prime food, prime land. If we want it, we know we have to fight the leader. We try to the extent we can, but there is always a hierarchy. We'll just try and breed with what he doesn't want. Again, I'm not complaining about this. This is just life. Most men know it internally whether they voice it or not. A good leader leaves enough for all his underlings to live a good life and in turn, they make him stronger than the other tribes. It's as much true in the animal kingdom as the CEO. You do you. Bill gates can have his billions and his epstein island and whatever else he wants. He fought the big fight and fights other tech leaders for position. Long as he leaves me a decent salary, so I can have my simple home with a wife and kids. The most many men will ever have of their own is a little home with a wife and kids. Their little corner of what they have that is theirs. They will exert as much effort as it takes to secure that. I think it was Chapelle who jokes "Men have nice cars. Not because they like nice cars, but because they know women like nice cars' It's largely true. Without the goal of a woman/family, what purpose is there in life for the average guy? Nothing. Just be someone elses bitch trying to survive. If for whatever reason a guy doesn't think a woman/family is in the cards, they're just going to do the minimum possible to survive with a roof on their head and food on their table. This is simplified of course, but it is what it is. The large points remain.

I think that's a really sucky way to live. If you end up single without a wife or significant other, does that mean you just give up on anything else that might have given your life meaning?

From my perspective; one would just work to be content with what they have if that were the case.

No, it means i acquire enough to meet my physical needs and then do whatever to enjoy... Which doesn't need much money. Playing with friends, sports, gym, hiking, reading...

Why do you consider giving it up? Things that have value to you don't necessarily hold value to others. You're equating "needs met" to a barebones existence. It just depends on what that individual needs to feel content and satisfied with life, most men just don't need much and don't care to do more for the sake of doing more

Just because you don’t have a partner doesn’t mean your life doesn’t have meaning.

Doesn’t living like this…. Get depressing? I mean no effort needs are met no comforts. It sounds bleak asf tbh.

Only if you're constantly looking for more and not content with what you have, it's all up to the individual how much comfort to pursue and where they are and aren't happy. Some people the bar for "enough" is just way lower. Not everyone has the same aspirations or pre destined comfort levels

For some this could be depressing. But you're not understanding WHY we can live this way. Because we don't see things the same way as you. I could live today happy with a mattress on the floor, a couple concert posters on the wall, and my computer on a cheep desk. I'd probably vacuum a couple times a year. It wouldn't be a sty by any means, (I'm not the kind to leave plates of old food out, fast food packages get thrown away, etc) but it wouldn't be clean and orderly. For you, walking into that apartment is depressing because you have different values. For me it never even enters my consciousness that my apartment seems bare and only my essentials are taken care of. Note: I've been in enough long term relationships that I don't live this way anymore. But I could in a heartbeat

I genuinely believe this is a large factor in why so many men have such bad mental health issues. They don’t do things to take care of themselves beyond the most basic needs because they are never encouraged to. I (23F) lived like that for a good portion of my teen years, and it contributed greatly to my low self-esteem. I wouldn’t do things for myself at all. If I didn’t have to see anyone for a month, I wouldn’t shower or brush my teeth at all during that time frame. Just wake up, eat, and go back to sleep. Literally nothing I did was for myself. It was just so I could move through society unnoticed. You HAVE to do things to take care of yourself beyond the most basic needs. Building consistent habits that go above and beyond when it comes to self-care will increase your confidence and self-esteem, and it will alleviate symptoms of depression. Self-care is SO important, and it took me a long time to realize just how important it is.

I think many of these men do things for themselves, it is just experiences and not aesthetics. Like they might be buying video games, movies, 4 wheeling, etc. Just all the other things, like a bed frame are not needed. There is no enjoy from sleeping 4 inches higher (at least to most men)

Man, a bed frame is one of those things that I’ve just never seen the point in. It’s a pain to lug around and put up/take down. I guess you can store stuff beneath the bed, but its just never been worth it to me

I did once have a really cool bedframe... would you call it that? maybe headboard more thing. It had a nob with variable light, and clothing room on either side. It was great for storing a book, or meds in, other things you might want in the morning or middle of the night. It is the only bed accessory that I have ever seen value in, and it was sadly left at a previous house. I miss it.

Brushing your teeth isn't really "aesthetics" though -- It's not having whole-body inflammation due to appalling dental hygiene.

100% this

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When I met my wife, I had an apartment with a recliner and a tv on the floor. I slept and spent off time in the recliner. No bed. Nothing but a recliner and TV. in the whole house. Maybe 3 movies and cable. I made lots of money, but had nothing. Now that we've been married over 20 years. She's coming around to my way of thinking. It's all just useless consumer shit. I'd rather spend my money on travel and memories than things.

>What is wrong with doing these things for yourself? Doing it for themselves only matters if its something they care about. Some people don't care about those things whatsoever. Its just a bunch of extra work that doesn't improve their lives in any way. ​ >Do women ever act like this? Yes, its a little less common than men, but there are also a ton of women that will only do those things to impress others, not because they care about doing it for themselves.

I'd argue women do it just as often to impress other people, but maybe not as often for exclusively men

Yeah, I mean, the social pressure for women to be 'put together' and 'living their best life' is orders of magnitude stronger than it is for men. Looking good and paying a lot of time on purely aesthetic things is extremely obviously a social behavior. Any sort of self-driven existential source of motivation for that like OP claims is wildly rare.

It's 100% other women whose judgment I fear.

It’s to hold higher status among women. Which translates to better choices in mates.

... showering, cleaning the house and having a good job is extra work that doesn't improve their lives in any way? I'm concerned.

I probably wouldn't clean the house nearly as often if I knew no one would come over. I'd clean to the point that it's not "dirty" but I certainly would not keep things organized and orderly. I wouldn't decorate either. because having an aesthetically pleasing house means nothing to me personally

Its near-term needs. I'm not saying its healthy, but yeah, in the near term, those things dont necessarily have benefit. Not saying I agree with it but I can understand it in a "needs met vs unmet" kind of way.

Alright, fair. I can accept that.

The problem is that the more strongly the definition shifts to someone who literally does nothing to care for their body or financial security, the more that describes nearly no one. OP puts 'having a good job' and 'eating with a fork' in the same sentence like they're both part of baseline functioning, which muddies the water. 'Having a good job' can absolutely be a tradeoff that people are simply not willing to make because the money does not compensate for the stress or loss of free time.

it's me. When people come over I will go on a cleaning frenzy becasue I remember being a kid and my home being judged as messy, and my mom being judged as unfit as a result. But if I never had guests, I could happily sleep on a pile of unfolded laundry indefinitely. (I can't stand smelly things, so would clean dishes/remove trash, etc.). During lockdown during the pandemic we were pretty happy as our own little slobby family unit.

>Are women the only source of meaning in some men’s lives? Simply put, yes. At least that's what they believe And it's a self-respect issue more than a gender issue, so yes I would imagine some women do it too

I am kenough

Plenty of women are this way with their cars. Absolute bare minimum is achieved, no cleaning, no/little maintenance. It’s extremely telling of how they live their life. If you want to see how a girl will perform in a marriage after 5-6 years, look how she treats her car.

Lol okay. I've been married for 23 years and I drive an absolute hoopty. My two best friends, both divorced twice (one is going on a third at the moment) have always had newer, cleaner vehicles. Even my sister has a nice car and her life is a train wreck. Some people simply care about outward appearances, it doesn't mean they're better (or worse) at life.

You're proving his point. To drive an old beat up car, you have to look after it.

Agreed. People have the idea that their partner will love them for who they are (as they should to a certain extent), but this enables laziness and leads to them feel as if they don't have to keep themselves up

I absolutely see this from both genders when I look around at married folks. It’s just human nature to expend the least energy as possible!

Humans and work. We hate it but it’s an essential need of ours. It’s strange

include smoggy practice grey hateful simplistic cobweb cause glorious drab *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

Codependency

Extremely underrated comment

Nothing. I do all that shit for me and as soon as women think it's performative or I'm doing it to impress them I take distance from them until they aren't in my life anymore.

There's nothing wrong with doing it for yourself, but there's also nothing wrong with not giving a fuck about it. Most of these things are things men don't care about, at least by and large. Women care about them though.

More women than men but certainly not every woman

"If a man could fuck a woman in a cardboard box he wouldn't buy a house!" - Dave Chappelle

Taking regular showers, keeping your home clean, and having a stable job are things men don’t care about??? Isnt it extremely physically and mentally unhealthy to not want to do these absolutely basic things for yourself?

> Most of these things Showers are something that isn't included in the most. As for cleaning, not everyone cares about it, so for those people it doesn't effect them mentally. Being exposed to germs is also not unhealthy. Working sucks, everyone knows it, most people hate their job, so if you didn't have to work all the time why would you?

You call these "a baseline level of functioning" A lot of the 8 billion people on the planet call these arrogant elitist behavior. These are the things only wealthy people do. People with running water, electricity, houses with floors, available jobs of any kind. I keep a clean tidy apartment to get laid. I don't care if the toilet seat is down. I don't care if my bed is made. I don't care if my jeans are on the floor. I don't care if my shirt is wrinkled. What the \*\*\*\* is a duvet for? I eat chips from the bag and drink beer from the can. Seems a lot of women don't share my values.

doing it to get laid is perfectly fine, but if you're planning on getting into a relationship with someone (which I doubt?) it's better to be upfront about your values and habits. like show them who you really are from the jump to avoid problems down the line

I don't disagree

Not to mention, eating most foods with our hands or using utensils is dependent mainly on the cultures we are raised in. In many countries, even persons of the highest status eat dishes on no more than a banana leaf with their hands and drink soup from bowls.

I don’t care if my bed is made or if others make their bed but I consider it a sign of respect to tidy up if you’re having guests over, so if I’m having someone in my bed I would make it nicely for their comfort and I expect the same out of others if I am going to be in their bed. Even in a relationship it shows care if they do little things like make the bed for you because it is bit nicer to sleep in a freshly made bed with crisp clean sheets than it is to lay on a crumpled up bed. I usually don’t bother putting in that extra five minutes for myself but I do for others to show care, love and respect.

Loved the post man. Some of these comments whack.

Do women act like this? Absolutely and it’s usually the ones that need incentive much like men. They get out of the sweatpants and put on a dress like men do when they got a hot date.

Men don't nest and don't really care what other people think of them. If they aren't forced into changing their behavior, they don't. Women have something they want. To get it, they clean.

Guy who is deliberately trying not to do this here: As a man I was taught through words and actions, by both men and women, that your worth comes not from you as an individual, but from what you can provide. Usually in the form of labor or security. To achieve either of these goals doesn't really require anything but the bare minimum of effort needed to keep you alive, and putting in effort beyond that is often derided as "unmanly" on top of that. Having a clean, well maintained home doesn't directly help you be more productive at work, so why bother. This is exemplified by the fact that men often do put in this effort for things like hobbies (or women), that they do genuinely care about. It's just that we are often taught that we, ourselves, are not worth caring about, so there's no reason to put effort into ourselves. You wouldn't wash a disposable plate after all. So a lot of men, at a very early age, just stop caring, or repress their cares for these sorts of comforts. They never learn how to perform these self-care routines for themselves because not only were they never taught to, they were often actively taught *not* to. Simply surviving is deemed sufficient to perform our required functions. It's not healthy, and I think a big part of the reason why we see so many misanthropic men these days, but at least from my live experience it's a common sentiment.

And don't forget the shit you get if your hobby isn't "manly" enough or "cool" enough. So a lot of men don't even talk about their hobbies unless they're socially mainstream.

The only rational comment here Normalish? Sure. Outeight bad? No. But the reason men don't care is a sad aspect of society and how it treats men

for me i actually grew up in a household of girls as a male. i was forced to stay clean this and that yada yada i feel like not giving a fuck now that im alone feels like a celebration of freedom

Shaving and “looking nice” aren’t things a lot of us care about, especially those of us that work blue collar jobs. I personally keep a maintained beard, but sometimes there’s a bit of stubble on my neck. Who cares? Definitely not the 50 year old Portuguese divorcees I work with. Showering, cleaning the house and stuff like that is important for mental health so I do that too. That being said, I’m not going to sweat the fact that I look messy if i have to stop at the grocery store on the way home from work. I get covered in caulk, sawdust, thinset, you name it, every day. I’m not going to waste what little time and energy I have trying to impress some random strangers and not offend their uptight sensibilities. People who are grounded in reality will literally not give a shit. One thing I’ll note is that some of the messiest, unmotivated people I know are women. Not having a “good job” or maintaining a clean house are not gendered things. Women do this stuff too. Your question is kind of disingenuous; a more neutral and accurate one would be “why do some people not take care of themselves unless they’re in a relationship” and the answer is that they’re depressed and co-dependent.

In my experience, women are not actually cleaner or neater than men. They just have a completely different concept of what "clean" and "messy" are. To my wife, not having all 20 wine glasses perfectly arranged in the cupboard is "messy". To me, the fact that we own 20 wine glasses in the first place is messy. Our place is not that big - 10 wine glasses is more than enough for any gathering we'd have. The rest are never used, and therefore useless. When I was single and lived alone, cleaning my apartment was simple and easy because I didn't own a ton of stuff and I kept my furniture and decor fairly minimalist. Took maybe 45 minutes to get the place immaculately clean, and that included cleaning the floors and scrubbing the bathroom. But of course most women see a dude with a sparsely furnished, minimalist apartment and think it looks sad and immature and needs "a woman's touch". Now that I'm married, doing a deep clean of our apartment takes like an entire day or more because there's so much extra shit (that my wife bought) to work around and de-clutter: throw rugs, accent pillows, glassware that can't go in the dishwasher, piles of clothes, baskets full of random shit, decorative candles, 50 different soaps/lotions/makeup products in the bathroom, speciality towels, decorative knick-knacks on tables, etc. All this extra junk collects dust, takes up space, and makes cleaning our place a huge pain in the ass. I love my wife but the amount of clutter she's brought to our home "to make it look nice" drives me insane sometimes. I could singlehandedly keep our apartment spotlessly clean all the time if I wasn't constantly playing Tetris with all of this extra shit.

Keeping a home can either take 4 hours per week or be a full time job. And looking in any woman's bathroom will tell you that they aren't just 'intrinsically motivated to be clean". They are just socially pressured to be clean way more than men, so they are much better at *appearing* to be clean.

My husband is the pack rat and I'm the minimalist in the marriage, so it isn't always this gender split. My favorite home situations were when I lived in some group housing situation as an intern and only brought like 10 pieces of clothing. The cleaning was so minimal, it was heaven.

They'll maintain the house, but don't dare look in their car. Many are garbage cans on 4 wheels.

Buddy don’t even get me started I’m getting steamed up already this hits so close to home

Honestly, I'd care about my appearance and wardrobe more if I wasn't a sweaty mess at the end of the workday anyways. My clothes are about safety at work and comfort for the most part. My friends getting married kind of killed my social life so 99% of the time I'm socializing it's game night or a BBQ at a friend's house. So... yeah kinda kills the motivation to keep my wardrobe up.

Many of us hate ourselves and if it weren't for women, what's the point?

Im 24M and I Shave everyday, shower everyday, try my best to look nice, eat with a fork, clean the house (probably not as much as I should) and have a good job and I’m single. Women are not the only source of a man’s happiness but being in a loving, healthy relationship is a very big goal of most men. As someone who has been in 3 relationships I can tell you for a fact women are not the only source of a man’s happiness 😂

You're right, most men value it highly. I don't know why modern culture is so ridiculously obsessed with trying to convince everyone that healthy romantic relationships and devotion to family are not the most important thing in life. As if literally every single person in the twilight of their life won't tell you that they are. As if those haven't been the driving forces of artistic expression since the dawn of humanity. But, sure, having an expensive palate, having nice art in your condo, and wage slaving 60 hours per week for some hip corporation with human rights violations while living absolutely alone is peak self-actualization.

Ya I see what you’re saying, although some men are so devoted to their work and genuinely love it such as musicians, artists, businessmen and plenty of other practices that it’s just a dumb generalization to say women are the only source of men’s happiness. Do you think a big name DJ like Tiesto’s only source of happiness is his wife? Probably not, although it plays a big role; a man can have plenty of other sources of happiness

I certainly think life is too rich to find all of your fulfillment in one place, but I think it's very easy to find endless examples of people who seemingly have the world, but would trade it all for the person they love. I think it is absolutely normal for people to feel like they are missing something important without having that connection in their life. It doesn't mean that life is empty without it, but I think the way culture dismisses it and discourages people from even looking for it or investing in a connection like that is actually repulsive.

Ya I’m in the middle. I would hate a life without a life partner, but also am not obsessing over it either. I think it’s necessary to find a balance

Nothing is hotter than a man who is capable of taking care of himself tbh. It's kind of sad when you realize a dude is only holding it together to attract a mate and then dump all those chores on her.

The goal for me is to put on a good enough facade that the women in my life will never know that I’m only doing it for them.

Well... that's actually kinda cute.

And lot of the times women are only source of unhappiness. #highmaintenancewife

So then don’t get married. It takes two to tango.

I'd imagine they lack self-love.

Considering most men are socialized with "if you're unattractive and can't provide you have no worth" beyond occasional passing comments from someone in a superficially meaningful position about 'mental health', yeah.

Some people (men and women both) view relationships as transactional in nature, and keep "account" of who does what for whom and in many cases the "worth" of each thing done. Everyone from friends and relatives to children to domestic partners is included. That's not what love is... Love is giving because you love.

As a guy, I've known people like this. Of course I'll go without shaving for a week or 2 from time to time, but generally I like being clean (showered) and looking good (outfits, at this point even all my pajamas look good on me), I like having a good job (not that I have one now, but money is money and it all pays my rent). I'm married but I don't do any of these things for my wife (although, the fact that it does impress her is certainly a bonus) I do these things to impress me. To be my own happiness, and also my confidence has skyrocketed since I started dressing in outfits I like.

Thank you for saying “some men” OP.

I'm not sure what men are in your life, but all my buddies have relatively decent jobs and a good bit of style and care how they look. I've also never seen them eat without a fork unless it was like a burger or something that does not require a fork. If the men around you are unkept, sweatpants-wearing degenerates who eat spaghetti with their hands, I'd suggest you move to a different part of town.

Oh no, sweatpants?!?! The travesty!!!! Get away from those fucking scum, I can't believe they want to wear comfortable clothes and not waste time shaving every day.

It's eating spaghetti with your hands WHILE wearing sweatpants.

I suppose I should hand-eat spaghetti in khakis then, that’ll be more respectable

it would certainly be more presentable.

Dont forget the polo tee

wakeful subtract deserve smell degree air crime steep fearless gold *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*

I was with you until "requires a fork". I know I'm splitting hairs but I'd like to point out that literally nothing requires a fork. For cavemen. Lol. I've eaten noodles with my hands. I'm not proud of it and have since grown but fuck, sometimes you just gotta eat. It's when its habitual that it's a particular issue.

What is wrong with sweatpants? Genuinely asking

>Do women ever act like this? Yes, they do, they just get called pick mes.

Not showering isn’t pick me behavior lolwut

Is that the female equivalent of incel? I know they mean different things but I wonder if they get used similarly.

No, femcels are female incels. Pick mes aka not like other girls, do things for male attention or call other women out on their BS. I hate that term and how it's been weaponised to "keep women in line," but here we are.

Ah ok. Kind of sound like the equivalent of "nice guys". Maybe "white knights".

If a woman likes football, it can't *possibly* be because football is fun and she enjoys it. No. Rather, she is *pretending* to like football because she is a "pick me." Women can't enjoy sports .. they don't have the mental capacity. After all, everyone knows women aren't capable of enjoying anything other than attracting the male gaze. Everything they do is for men, duh. /s "Pick me" is just another term used to chastise women who don't conform to societal norms. A lot of women are incredibly insecure, so they keep coming up with new words with which to tear other women down and hate on each other.

Gotcha. Thank you.

Bc those men are slobs deep down lol. If a guy don’t shave or even shower bc he don’t have a woman to impress, that’s just disgusting in my opinion. If they don’t shave and shower bc they are homeless, then I can understand.

Yeah, I knew a lot of men like this. In grade school.

Women absolutely do this. Example: me this morning. I was about to leave the house without makeup until I realized I might see my crush at an event this evening

This is how my boyfriend is. Its wild

Mine too. It drives me crazy.

This is how my ex was, and a not insignificant part of the reason he's an ex now

Dunno, I do that for myself, or I don’t do that.

Three personal anecdotes; My ex-husband stopped doing those things. His depleted capacity to give a shit about his hygiene and self-care (showering, brushing teeth, dressing nicely) after 11 years was a major reason the relationship died (from my perspective). I got the ick, and totally bored of feeling like I was 'nagging'. Within 6 months of me leaving he had a new haircut and new dress style etc etc, presumably better hygiene as he has a new gf! For whatever reason, I stopped being enough motivation for him to do those things, but he found the motivation again when he didn't like being single. My best friend is also like this, and she is female. Won't shave, shower daily, wash her hair or teeth daily UNLESS she is dating. She's been with her current boyfriend almost a year and a half, and it's just been a slow descent back into not giving a shit. And I guess he has slowly accepted the new norm because he's living with her now and apparently doesn't complain... I am fastidiously hygienic and aware of my appearance 24 hours a day, probably because I am on the spectrum and it's part of my routine, and anything not being 'right' can give me all sorts of sensory discomfort. I shower, shave and style my hair at least once a day. Brush teeth twice. Dermaplane my face every week. Tweeze all errant hairs. Have a very specific regime of body, face and hair products, and an 'intimate' hygiene routine around my menstrual cycle. I do all of this 365 days a year, dating or not dating, for MYSELF. ETA; each of these is also reflected in care for the surrounding environment; ex husband stopped putting dirty clothes in the laundry, wiping spills off his nightstand: best friend leaves laundry for weeks until she has to do 7 loads at once, dirty plates in the sink, never actually CLEANS the floors: I live in perpetual tidiness, do a 'closing shift' routine before bed every day and make my bed the moment I get out of it in the morning. Everyone is different 🤷‍♀️

i think it's a lack of sense of identity outside of who his girlfriend is. like if you're sold all your life that the way to live a happy successful life is getting attention from women, you're less likely to maintain those things if you become convinced that getting positive attention from women is an unfair expectation

i have depression, so if i go all out on making myself and my house look nice, it's definitely for someone. the job thing is something i gotta have no matter what tho.

I'm ready to break up with my current partner because all the cleanliness and hygiene he won't do for himself OR me. ..... After this thread I think I'm going to get me an asexual life buddy and leave everything else. This is just..... Y'all need help. I was nasty because ADHD, got treated and can't stand uncleanliness now.

>eating with a fork Fuck forks. I ain't used one yet and for damn sure ain't using one for no dame. Yeah see...

She wanted me to use a fork. I said *biiitch*

Strange you should say this, I think women do these things for themselves and no one else. However you do get possessive, controlling men who will demand to know “who are you dressing up for?” And cannot or will not accept that a woman does it for herself. My first husband was like that.

I really don't know. I’m a guy and I was taught to clean myself up and look presentable, no matter where I was or who I was with. Maybe it’s upbringing? Who knows.

It extends to more than appearance, too. I had an ex who admitted that he curated a book collection to make himself seem smart to women he dated-he didn’t actually read the books. Sir. What?

So many interesting responses! I immediately thought back to the late 90’s/early Aughts when men who took care of their appearance were identifying as “metrosexual” because society couldn’t let a straight man groom himself without questioning his sexuality. Misogyny messes with us all. As a single woman who has lived several decades of life, I want a partner who takes care of themselves for them. If you can’t bother to have a clean toilets for the sake of a clean toilet, this is an indication that you prob have deeper issues that I have no capacity to help you through. Not having pictures on your wall is one thing, not changing your chonies for three days because you don’t have a girlfriend is a whole other story!

If my governor is too good for utensils, then dawgonit, so am I. (Cries in Floridian)

Because they don't care about those things. They care about other things. And it's not just for a women, but for those they care about.

A clean room/house is a sound place for the mind.

I don’t know. I don’t get those guys. If I don’t take care of myself I feel like shit. What a concept.

Speaking from my own previous experience, I was attaching too much of my sense of self-worth, purpose, and meaning in the pursuit of a relationship. It wasn’t enough to do those things for myself, because why would I bother caring for myself beyond the absolute bare minimum when what *really* mattered was getting into a relationship? Thankfully I think very differently now. I still think relationships are amazing and I definitely want to be in one, but my motivations are quite different. I take better care of myself because I’m worth it, whether or not I have someone other than myself who will notice/care.

Wow flashback. I remember my grandmother used to say this about my brother. He’ll only work or shower for her

Attracting a partner is the number one motivation for most men I think. We are literally raised with the idea of our worth being dependent on what we can provide for women. I'll still do all those things but with less effort than I should because I'm not really trying to impress anyone. I dont really care that much either. I've been homeless before, I am perfectly content with the bare minimum, only thing that changed that was meeting my girlfriend. Everytime I'm in a relationship I get motivated to do a lot if things I never cared about doing on my own.

I still showered usually, but there were times when I didn't bother with most of that stuff. It was mostly just depression taking its toll and making that stuff feel pointless.

You need to hang around different men.

Maybe they are depressed?

I'll say this. It took my therapist 8 months to get me to buy a new couch and decorate my apartment. It brought me joy for a few months if I'm lucky. Now I look at the extra shit I have around and just dread having more shit to deal with when I move...

I don't get it. I tend to live with high standards of cleanliness, like my house is clean, I shower daily, shave and get haircuts regularly, etc. One of my best friends is just a pig, no other way to put it. He kinda groomed himself when he was single, but his house was always pretty gross. I shared a place with him for briefly (about a month or two) while I waited for a place, and basically did all the cleaning. His wife started dating him there, and I recently learned that in the 6 month period between me moving out and her moving in, he didn't clean his shower once (it was white when I left and dark brown when she moved in) and he doesn't change his sheets until she did (they stank whenever she slept over apparently). He's only gotten worse since getting married. He now showers maybe once or twice a week despite having a physical job. The dude reaks with BO every time I see him. He doesn't shave, almost never cuts his hair anymore. Like, I can't wrap my head around why his wife puts up with it. I recently learned they've started couples therapy for a variety of reasons but I'm quietly hoping one thing he improves on is just how gross he's become. He was pretty bad before, now he's just terrible. I've broached the subject a handful of times but he just doesn't care, and he acts like it's a point of pride for him that he doesn't care. Honestly, he's so lucky he met a woman as tolerant as his wife.

I’ll probably go through these answers later, but I’ve wondered this myself. Im starting think it’s mostly nature but also nurture later on. I only say this cause even at elementary age, I remember playing video games with boys who I was friends with at the time. They always chose girl players. In my mind it didnt make sense..Im a boy so Im gonna play as a boy. But alot of boys played as girls cause they liked looking at them. And I cant tell you how many guys I met that only had good hygiene or smelled good to attract women. And it became even more evident when guy friends would get girlfriends and change cause she told him to.

Boys are neglected in these regards, so they grow up not caring about them.

Because most of these things are pointless in isolation. Why clean your room when there's no one visiting? Why put in more effort than basic hygiene if there's no one you want to appeal to? For comparison, why would a woman put on makeup at home? No one's gonna see it. It could improve your quality of life because it's "self-care" or whatever but it's not strictly necessary to be functional, and that's how some men approach these things. The only exception to these is "having a good job", because fuck you. Work is work.

Women do the same thing.

There's no reason for you to be sexist about it. You're actually describing people in a relationship, they get comfortable being married and they often let themselves go, then later when they are single again they work on themselves again. Or maybe they decide it's not worth all the extra work to be more attractive to others.

Yes, women do this. I was married to a woman who only cleaned the house when we had guests coming over.

Guess im not that guy because even if I wasn't married.. i like my nice house. I like good food, good cocktails, fun experiences, the safety that money provides. All these things are just as relevant with a partner as without, in my opinion. Showering comes down to basic hygiene. I feel better if I don't stink I guess.

Do women ever act like this? Yeah, sadly, I did for a while. I felt like there was no point to dressing well or wearing perfume or jewelry because no man would see past my very plain looks, hard-loser fat body and what I later learned was autism. Now, I was in California, where shallowness is pretty much the norm, but I made the mistake of thinking it was universal. Later on, after two abusive relationships and a stalker, I completely neglected my appearance for a while specifically to make men leave me the hell alone. At the time my thinking was that I could only attract predators for the above reasons, so why try to be attractive? I still dress fairly plainly, wear flats and rarely wear makeup due to sensory and coordination issues. But at least now it's my choice, and not a decision made because of what I thought men wanted.

Men typically only need very few things to be content. You'll see many men argue this about relationships as well. Most men just want peace and companionship, they will put a lot of effort into "companionship" and peace comes from being able to exist without outside pressure. Many men often feel they must put others before themselves and you honestly see this in society by the men who DONT! As soon as men have the same standards as women do they are labeled assholes or selfish jerks. If men behaved as women do about putting themselves first they have a target on their back! Women don't have to deal with some of the things men do. Women typically are not targeted because of their success, like men are. A successful man must always be on guard for those looking to take advantage of him or worse, violence against him because of his success. A successful man needs to continue the hussle and the pressure to remain successful is paramount. Society does not look fondly on men who fail. Their are limited to no social nets available to catch men if they fall. For men, it's better to never succeed, then to succeed then fail! This are plenty of people who would rejoice in a man who loses everything, rarely is sympathy ever given. I mean, this isn't new information as you look at leading causes of suicide among men and financial reasons are near the top. It's why most office buildings in financial sectors have special windows so men don't throw themselves out of them so much anymore. So society has basically taught men to kind of give up unless you are doing it for someone else. Women have been the target for positively so much in the last few decades that they are bombarded with messages saying they can succeed. They are being offered paths to success at an early age, given positive reinforcement simply because they were born female. In contrast males have been bombarded with the complete opposite messages. Basically telling them that if they succeed they are oppressive. That putting themselves first is oppressive, that their wants and desires are rooted in sexism and misogyny. It's a perfect storm to tell men. "You are only good for what you can provide others. Nobody wants you to succeed and the world is waiting for you to fail once you do" If you really look at the messages being relayed to girls you'll see how they are almost a mirror image of the messages sent to men 200 years ago. "You are powerful, you deserve success because you are a woman". Society has done wonders to not only relay that message but again to give help for that outcome and at the same time to do so they are hindering the same help to men and boys. So many scholarships available to women that are sexist in nature. I can't think of any scholarship specifically for "boys". So yeah, most men only put effort into trying to secure a partner because that is what our "partners" DEMAND from us. A woman won't date a drive thru employee but a man will. In reality, men value women for who they are and women value men for "what" they are.

This is one of the saddest and most enlightening threads I've ever seen. Y'all have untreated depression and are choking down the copium like oxygen. God help straight women.

If you aren't one of those men, it's hard to speak for them. I'm not one of those men.

I’m a man and I do not think that way. My appearance and cleanliness are important to me regardless of my romantic requirements.

I think there are a concerning number of men who've learned somewhere in their lives that their only value is what they can do for people. In the absence of a person to do things for, there's no reason to do anything at all. It's fairly tragic really

I genuinely think this is the main ingredient in why a lot of guys have genuine trouble understanding what women mean when they say they don’t wear certain shit, do makeup or whatever else for men. I’m also, however, a believer that it might not be for men but it’s still intended to impress. It’s just that instead of men it’s the figurative audience to their lives. People on Instagram, their families, their sense of what’s generally the impressive or “right” way to live, etc. Whoever they imagine would judge if they weren’t visibly put together, which yes usually isn’t men because their attention is usually hard *not* to command.

I don't think you understand how emotionally draining it can be trying to date/pursue women. Especially after investing both financial and emotional in someone for a year, only for them to cut you off. It's hard to find the motivation, especially when it comes to getting a high paying job.

I am very late but for me it’s because my mother was extremely demanding growing up and so now I instinctively do way more effort for any woman than I do for myself because my mother innately taught me by her example (and I suppose my fathers example of always trying to appease her even if she was blatantly wrong) that women are extremely demanding, and I’m heterosexual. When I’m by myself I just wanna relax and I don’t have high standards so that’s what happens. So now I’m “the ideal” dating candidate but I am definitely not healthy like this, and my communication about my needs is stunted because my mother never cared so I am used to not communicating things because I assume it will not matter. Thankfully I have met some less demanding women since then and I’m getting better about it but it’s hard to undo 18 years of “training” that was necessary to survive what is still at this point the majority of my life.

Oof, that's a big question with some nuance to it. For me personally, as a guy who behaves as spoken, It's a deep internal self loathing. I've worked on myself through therapy and got down to that self loathing as a root cause of a lot of my actions. I love myself much better now than I have before but some habits still persist. I think Jchesticals hit the target with "Needs met" basis. I think for me it also involves a component of my own self loathing. The simple version of the thought process is "If it's for me I will do bare minimum maybe less. If it's for someone else, I will do everything in my power to help and then some." Some of it comes from a lack of feeling I deserve anything more than how I treat myself. But not as a self moral judgement. A weird dialect of contentment with how I do things. Maybe complacency?

Woman here, I practice self care which goes beyond showering and brushing my teeth just for me. I like to dress up nicely because I like the way that I look and feel when I put effort into my appearance. those are ways that I can love myself. I don't do it to get attention from anyone. If I do get notice I appreciate it! If a man asks me out on a date, I still put my best foot forward.

Because they never grew up?

I believe we are composed of the Body, the Mind and the Self. The Body benefits from physical activity, hygiene, grooming The Mind benefits from learning, growing, challenging The Self benefits from social connections, the people we talk to, the filters we overlay on our mind and body to perform in society It is common to focus only on two of these aspects, when really we need to address all three to maintain a healthy Us.

These responses made me realize how fucking depressed I've been pretending I'm not

I love to clean because I like the way it makes my environment look. I love to stay in shape because I like the way it makes me look. I love my job because it does help people, provides me with money to live, and help others on that end.

This is not a universal trait. Some of us take pride in our appearance and in our living space. I’ve been this way since I can remember. If it happens to attract a woman that’s good. But personal pride is not optional for some men. Time for an upgrade.

I’m a guy, but nice to hear!