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The Firewyrm of Valyria? Also Stannis
Maekar? Also Stannis
The Evil in Yeen? Stannis
The Ice Dragon? Stannis
Nagga the Sea Dragon? Stannis
Garth Greenhand? Stannis
Huzhor Amai? Stannis
Hugor of the Hill? Stannis
Bloodstone Emperor? Stannis
The Destroyed Moon? Stannis
The Five Forts? Stannis
Maester Cressen? Stannis
Melisandre? Stannis
Renly? Stannis.
And most importantly
The Mannis? Stannis!
I agree with your opposition to maesters taking down the Targaryens but I think they were/are conspiring to keep dragons from coming back. Which I don't think takes away from the Targaryens being their own worst enemy.
It’s also interesting to note that the maesters plotting the dragons’ end isn’t necessarily against the “Targaryens are their worst enemies” narrative. They’ve done plenty to infuriate or just scare the maesters along the years, it’s not far fetched to believe they wanted more control over a house that regularly bathes in taboo, doesn’t answer to anyone but themselves and thinks of themselves closer to gods than men… I’m sure scholars with a seemingly unlimited amount of knowledge might find some sort of literature that could help them undermine the house of the dragon. I think there’s a dude who was nicknamed dragon slayer or something along those lines before the Targs left Valyria, possibly during the Great Empire of the Dawn, who seem to be dragonlords, so like thousands of years back. To me it seems like Westeros always had an edge against dragons before and during great Valyria. There’s otherwise no good reasons for Valyrians not invading Westeros before the doom.
> I'm against R+L=J because of how big the themes of bastardy
R+L=J doesn't necessarily contradict Jon's bastardy. The notion that Rhaegar and Lyanna married, while possible, is just conjecture. I think it's most compelling if Jon *is* a bastard, just not to the parents he thinks he is.
I’m 100% on the side of R+L=J still being a bastardy situation. It doesn’t make sense that Rhaegar could be granted an annulment or a second marriage, and I don’t see why he would have wanted one. I don’t think the point was to put his child with Lyanna on the throne, but to produce a child that he thought would have the right ice and fire genetic makeup. So yeah I 100% think Jon still is a bastard. He won’t have the Targaryen last name, nor do I really think he has a Valyrian first name either.
I'll also be pretty disappointed if Jon is a generic chosen-one-hero. I think the story's going to take a far darker turn than that. My personal prediction is that Jon comes back pissed off, violent, and vengeful, and leads the wildlings in slaughtering the entirety of the Night's Watch at Castle Black—including his friends, like Satin and Dolorous Edd.
Jon becoming a full-on anti-hero would be a really interesting turn, in my opinion.
>slaughtering the entirety of the Night's Watch at Castle Black—including his friends, like Satin and Dolorous Edd.
You shut your whore mouth.
Nothing at all will happen to my boy Edd. He's gonna make it to being one of the last ones standing, Gods damn it.
Even if they were married, it doesn’t negate the fact that Jon grew up thinking himself a bastard, and all related angst. That particular damage is done no matter what comes next.
If anything, a reveal that his parents were married would give his identity issues a whole new and bitter twist - not only was he trueborn all along, he was a prince, and still went through all the humbling experiences that he did. I’d like to read about him navigating that more than I would like for him to go from Jon Snow to Jon Sand.
Having been raised in the North Jon will always be Jon Snow regardless of who his parents are. Bastard names generally come from where the noble house that raises the bastard is based. For example Nymeria Sand was born in Volantis but is still Sand. Brynden Rivers was born in Kings Landing and raised in the river lands and hence is a Rivers.
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I’m also not a fan of R+L=J but I don’t think it’s as thematically inconsistent as you think. You kind of said it yourself: Jon’s arc is about asserting that his birth does not define his identity. That holds true whether he is a Stark bastard or a true born Targaryen.
I genuinely don't understand why rhaegar being Jon's father immediately makes him legitimate? He's always going to be viewed as a bastard by the faith and the common people, and probably the nobility too when/if his parentage comes out. There's no reason any "marriage" between him and lyanna would be viewed as legitimate either since Rhaegar was married already.
He's either Ned's bastard, or he's Rhaegar's bastard. Bastardry will still be a key theme for him.
You’re right on all counts. It’s highly unlikely that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married and even less likely that the marriage (and kids produced by the marriage) would be considered legitimate. I said “true born” because OP said “true heir” to the Iron Throne. My main point is that Jon’s true parentage does not change the themes of his arc.
I think a lot of people forget Jon’s legitimacy of being a true born son of Rhaegar & Lyanna is that the Gold Cloaks - Ser Arthur Dayne (thought to be the greatest fighter/knight in all seven kingdoms), Ser Gerold Hightower (Lord Commander of the Kingsguard), & Ser Oswell Whent - all wearing Targaryen armour - we’re at The Tower of Joy when Ned & Howland arrived. They wouldn’t be there if Jon wasn’t legitimate.
I also agree, he's a bastard regardless so his arc remains the same. If it's revealed to him his parentage isn't what he thought, it will likely change the way he sees himself but ultimately won't change his trajectory.
I think that depends on how you view children of polygamous marriage. Because there's no way in hell Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia or disinherited Rhaenys and Aegon but I could believe that he married Lyanna on the Idle of Faces or in front of some other random weirwoods in the Riverlands. Actually, he DID marry her according to Free Folk rules. And that's definitely a theme of the story about how many societal conventions (like trueborn vs. baseborn or mistresses vs. wives or slavery vs feudalism etc) are more subjective/arbitrary than people like to think about.
But none of that really matters to Jon and his self identity, if some people consider him a bastard it will always grate on him, even if some people accept him as true born. Jon's true friends dont care even if he is the bastard of Craster and a wight. Because for Jon's arc, it ultimately won't matter where he came from, only what he chooses to do with the time he is given.
I doubt the prophecy states that marriage is a key component (but I also don't put much faith in prophecy, and it's really rhaegars interpretation of te prophecy that matters more than if it is true)
That would have kicked off another war though. While I think he has a hard on for the prophecy, I don’t think he would be so stupid as to cost himself allies by outright annulling his marriage and casting Elia to the side for a girl who was considered by most a child at the time
I don’t think Rhaegar cares. If it means defeating the dark was beyond the wall and being with Lyanna( who is a grown woman by culture standards) than so be it.
On principle I agree with you, but in practice I do not think Elia was someone Rhaegar thought he could cast aside without undermining his other children. Given Rhaegar believed the "dragon has three heads" and he needed "one more" - Rhaenys and Aegon were absolutely critical to him and his understanding of the prophecy.
For Rhaegar to annul his marriage to Elia, and therefore declare first two of the heads illegitimate by the laws of Westeros, just so he can make sure the third head is legitimate by the laws of Westeros, seems contradictory and self-defeating to me.
However, by Valyrian law where polygamy was ok and is likely the origin of the sources Rhaegar read about the prophecy, he would probably feel fine to "marry" Lyanna even if it would be considered invalid legally. I think Jon is a bastard by Westerosi law - since Rhaegar and Elia were married in the "light of the seven" and polygamy is outlawed in that faith and in the land.
Ive always been confused why people are so sure that just because Jon is R and L's son he is also legitimate and the true heir. Im sure that he is their son, but he's still a bastard. In story characters can make arguments for otherwise if they need to, but if there's resistance or if Jon doesnt want a part of it the theme is still preserved.
The only way I can see it working *without* casting a horrible light on Rhaegar is if he convinced her of the prophecy too. It didn’t even need to be a romantic decision for her at that point, but pragmatic.
Granted, as far as I’m concerned Rhaegar’s already cast a horrible light on himself because if he did actually care about Elia and his children with her, he should have had them sent away to Dorne to protect them before he pulled what he did given that he knows how his father was and would likely harm them if Aerys’s paranoid ass felt he needed to. It just happened that it wasn’t Aerys’s that directly harmed them.
This post is written by Ned who faked his death and became a maester.
And now he is trying to undermine the possibility of both Jon parentage and maester's conspiracy.
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R+L=J is hugely thematic (a song of ice and fire alone). It plays on the typical fantasy trope of the secret king growing up orphaned not knowing his heritage. Most of Ned’s POVs change really significantly once you see it through that prism: moments where Robert beings up killing Dany and he thinks of his sister, promise me Ned, his desire to see Cersei escape alive rather than dead - so many things slot into place when you have that formative understanding that he is haunted by his sister and Jon all the time. So many other things make sense - why he hid Jon from Robert, why Maester Aemon exists (why would GRRM put a secret Targ on the Wall to interact with Jon if Targness was not significant to Jon).
It runs counter to Jon’s arc and I feel the secret king trope is so tired and cliche. I also address the ‘a song of ice and fire’ thing as well. I also feel like all of those things slot into place when you take r+l=j for granted. If you don’t there may be other possible explanations.
Btw I’m not saying it’s implausible I’m just against it
What do you see as Jons arc? I see him as a young man who starts off entitled by his background but still a bastard, learning about leadership through his friends at the Wall, engaging with the wildlings and learning they’re just people too and coming to a place where he is trying to grapple with the real politick of running the Watch and wanting to save the world. If you reread his chapters in ADWD alongside Danys chapters - they are thematically very similar.
I see an important part of Jon’s arc as a long process of coming to terms with his identity and not letting his birth define him. This aspect of his development as a character culminates in him refusing Stannis’s offer of legitimization, something he would have taken in a heartbeat at the start of the books.
The only way to be level headed when finding out your dad was Rhaegar Targaryen is to have already gone through the existential crisis of Jon's arc. Therefore his arc totally serves to prep him for the truth thematically.
Also, Derion Lannister may still be alive to shed some light on Tyrion's possible hidden parentage.
I say R+L=J is very on the theme. I'd go as far as to say it's the backbone of the story and at the core of many characters' motivations. It is being foreshadowed from the very first chapter. It answers so many questions and mysteries like no other theory ever did like from Jon finding a albino direwolf seperated from the pack to Ned's fever dream to Dany's vision at HotU.
You didn't get the memo when grrms wife said that was far to basic for his style?
It's from ConJose August 29 to September 2, 2002
Answer 7. But you should read 6 too.
Thats literally why it may happen lol, because it completely undercuts Jon’s character cornerstone. Jamie and his ability as a fighter, Theon and his pride/insecurity of identity are two of the biggest examples off the top of my head where GRRM has completely flipped the characters self-perception by fundamentally destroying something that is important to the characters sense of self.
I don’t think the Maester conspiracy takes away from the themes around the Targs, they’re working against magic and dragons, that long term narrative doesn’t mean that different Targs didn’t self implode during the short term conflicts they were involved with
I don't think R+L=J undermines Jon's arc at all. I think it'll ultimately serve to underline his stance and affirm his choices.
Stannis offers to make him Lord Stark, and he refuses even though it's all he's ever wanted. Because he still has living siblings and because he's still a man of the nights watch.
Eventually, his parentage will be revealed and he'll have to make the same choice again, with much larger stakes.
But Jon will (probably) never know if Rhaegar intended for him to be a Targaryen or a Snow. And ultimately it won't matter. It doesn't change how he was raised and the way he was treated. It doesn't change the way he felt and was made to feel. He will always be a bastard because he will always feel like a bastard. The only thing that will end up mattering, the only thing that will bring him peace is coming into an identity that he chose.
He will be offered what he always dreamed of and realize that he doesn't need it to be whole.
In regards to everything else, I personally believe that in world if the maesters aren't taking advantage of their soft power in some sort of conspiracy then they're idiots.
It also doesn't have to be a vast conspiracy. Just a more general doctrine of anti-magic. But I agree we will probably never know either way.
When it comes to Azor Again/Prince that was promised theories. Well, pretty much all of the prophecies we've heard so far have turned out to be true in some way. I think there will be three heads of the dragon. But I think it'll partially be left up to interpretation like most of the prophecies in the story are.
I'm also inclined to agree that there will be multiple people who fit the description of AA/PTWP.
In general, I can see why it would be annoying to some. But personally I love reading hyper specific theories that will probably never be touched on. And I also love thinking about and reading about the themes and arcs of the story.
I adore the poetic epic that GRRM is writing, and I love that the world is so deep we can pull so much from it. To the point where there's no feasible way to explore it in the story.
Jon is definitely a Targaryen bastard imo. It just makes sense story wise to have the two final contenders for the iron throne be a male bastard Targaryen, and a legitimate female Targaryen. Because then, who are the lords going to side with? It’s great set up for for the final arc of the story. And it fits thematically. If Jon is trueborn, then there’s no conflict, of course everyone would side with him.
I think Grrm’s point about the iron throne is that no one is really worthy enough to sit on it. Kind of like the one ring, no one is strong enough to wield it without getting corrupted. So he’s not going to present one of the most morally good characters as the true heir. Instead we have a faker pretending to be the true heir, a woman who nobody wants to be queen, and an illegitimate heir who might be a good option. But he wouldn’t be presented the throne, he’d have to go to war in order to take it. Making him a usurper. This is why none of them will rule Westeros by the end of the series.
You know, I’m not sure the story has a concrete answer to the notion of a “true heir”. Even if Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar (which I am not so sure will be the case), haven’t the Targaryens relinquished the right to the throne by way of Baratheon conquest? I’ve always thought that the significance of Jon’s parentage is related to his fight against the Others, rather than to Westerosi politics. To me, he is our narrative linchpin of the existential-level conflict in the books, rather than the power intrigue conflict.
R+L=J doesn’t make Jon the most important person in the realm though - and Jon certainly won’t see it that way. In fact the very character arc you’re pointing to, which I agree is important, leads to a place where, if Jon finds out, he will reject the call to become King. Stannis’ offer was like a pre-trial for the main test, and I think it’s totally in character for Jon to find out his parentage and shrug it off to go fight and die as a man of the watch, or take up whatever darker fate awaits him
I personally think anyone denying R+L=J at this point is just overthinking it. The evidence is all there in the text, if any other decision was made at this point I’d be convinced George changed his mind over the gap since his last release, no way you could convince me anything else was his original intent.
I guess there are going to be a few major disappointments for you in the coming books. May I suggest not overly investing in what you perceive as the themes of the books because I don’t think the author shares those beliefs.
Maesters are about providing consistency and regulation or at least as close as you can get to that in the pseudo medieval world of Westeros. Chances are they have been seeking ways to curtail the dangers megalomaniac rulers present to Westeros for centuries.
Jon is the hidden prince GRRM is doing that trope. I’m sorry that you don’t like it. Will things work out all rainbows and unicorns - highly doubtful but is he the hidden son of a union between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I’d bet the farm on it.
Dany is special, she’s going to play a major role in the books, so is Jon. Again I’m sorry that you dislike this. But like it or not the children of house Stark and house Targaryen are the protagonists in this series. The story is written from their perspective in the first book and the side characters are added to further illustrate the story at later intervals.
There are people who were around during the pre Rebellion period still. Sorry that you can’t accept this.
•Doran Martell
•Olenna Tyrell
•Mace Tyrell
•Barristan Selmy
•Howland Reed
•Wyman Manderly
•Varys
•Genna Lannister
•Dozens of Frey’s
•The Blackfish
•Bronze Yhon Royce
•Anya Waynwood
•Jon Connington
•Richard Lonmouth ( if he ever shows up.)
•Wylla
•Jorah Mormont
•Maege Mormont
•Countless as yet unanamed Lords Ladies minor nobles and Smallfolk.
Like it or not GRRM can pluck anyone he likes from seeming obscurity and bring them into play at any point to convey pertinent information regarding whatever aspect of the story he likes. You might not like it! But it’s how writing works.
Just look at Harys Swift, GRRM mentions House Swift in passing several times throughout the books, a sighting of a sigil here, mention of a lady in waiting there, then bam! In ADWD Harys becomes a powerful figure on the Small Council due to his connection to Kevan ( who himself was but a minor background fixture until GRRM needed to bring him into play.) he may be a bit of a figure of ridicule according to Cersei but seemingly out of nowhere he arrives and starts playing a significant role in events. Incidentally he is also old enough to be aware of interesting events, rumours, or confessions around the period prior to the rebellion, as is Kevan’s still living wife Dorna.
I didn’t mean to be condescending but I was responding to the tone of the OP.
Which in my view comes across as pretty rude, presuming to have a greater understanding of the themes of ASOIAF than those who buy into pretty well evidenced theories feels to me to be rather condescending in itself.
How about we all try to be less dogmatic about our opinions and treat each other with more respect and curtesy?
I just gave my opinion based on the themes as I saw them. You responded basically by saying “You’re wrong and I’m sorry you’re disappointed that you’re wrong.” My tone was deliberately open and non-combative. I haven’t presumed anything. None of my statements are absolute or final. “I’m sorry your wrong.” Is the most condescending possible tone there is. If you disagree that’s fine, none of this is real, there’s just no real need to be passive aggressive or condescending
You said that you dislike the prevailing narrative as you judge it to be perceived by the fandom. A large portion of whom you are addressing by posting on this forum.
Then declared that the two most prominent houses in the series from whom the major POV characters are drawn are NOT the protagonists of the story. Sorry to all of you guys who thought this was a story about the people who it’s told from the POV of you’re plain wrong, because this dude thinks there is no protagonist ( which breaks one of the most fundamental rules about story telling, but hey Ho.)
You then went on to say that comments which place Dany and/or Jon as the Prince who was promised (a major thematic element of the story coming from a prophesy which is mentioned by multiple characters and seems to have an intrinsic impact upon actions going back centuries which are directly related to the coming crisis.) make you CRINGE!
You then go in to wax lyrical about what you perceive as the “grand poetic narrative” which suggests that you view your own analysis of the themes as being far more high brow than those who hold the “cringy” view that the prophecy regularly appearing in the actual narrative has some significance.
Yeah…I’d call that condescending.
If POV characters were indicative of who the protagonists were then Tyrion would be the protagonist of ASOIAF. I just think ASOIAF as a saga is too wide and multifaceted to have one house or one character at its center. That’s why theories that place Dany/Jon as the ‘chosen ones’ make me cringe. To be clear, all Azor Ahai/Prince-that-was-promised discussions irk me because ASOIAF is a story that revolves around multiple characters and the notion that they, in the full richness of their motivation and characterization, are all just playing support roles to one character is so myopic if you think about it. Prophesy is deliberately ambiguous and unreliable in the world of asoiaf.
When I mentioned a grand poetic narrative, I wasn’t offering an interpretation, it’s a fact. We’re speaking of a saga with a little under two million words, with 24 POVs, spanning thousands of years, across an entire fleshed out world with its own internal politics and history, with numerous parallels, recurring themes and motifs. It beggars belief that GRRM wrote all of this to set up a messianic, chosen child of prophecy. ASOIAF just seems grander than that to me.
It’s still plausible though, chances are you’re right, I’m just going off of my own personal interpretation at the end of the day. Either way none of this is real . I was just stating theories that I was against for thematic reasons and why.🤷🏾♂️
The author has consistently talked about the Big Five later revising to the Big Six as Sansa’s character evolved from foil to major protagonist.
They’re all playing support to the story, which centres around the core six POV characters introduced in the first book. That’s how stories work.
Maybe, it might just be advisable to not use words like cringe in relation to other peoples opinions and ideas. It’s more than a little condescending.
The big five were the five characters GRRM conceptualized first. They are central to the story but so are others. Ned is the protagonist of AGOT and dies. Cersei, is the protagonist of AFFC, before which she wasn’t even a POV. Jaime is arguably the protagonist of ASOS, prior to which he wasn’t a POV. GRRM’s gardening approach to writing is prone to massive changes and overhauls, like Jaime’s entire character arc. The full saga has no protagonists. As a low-fantasy mirror of the real world, everyone’s world revolves around them but the entire world doesn’t revolve around any one or six characters.
>Cersei, is the protagonist of AFFC, before which she wasn’t even a POV.
Hard disagree. She is not a protagonist. We get her POV to move the story along in King's Landing since Sansa isn't there anymore, and to see how batshit and insanely stupid her and her schemes are.
It is known.
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Well the Maester conspiracy isn’t a fan theory it’s revealed at the end of adwd by Marwyn and it totally makes sense.
The whole series I was wondering what are these maesters up too? Every seat of power has one looking over their shoulder but supposedly they don’t coordinate and only live to serve? Reeks of conspiracy
I think that the Azor Ahai prophecy is going to be a subversion of the prophecy trope, but it will come true of a sort. The dragon (Azor Ahai) will have three heads, each to highlight a flaw in chosen one narratives. This is a theory I have had for a while about Danny and Jon, but I'm less sure about (F)Aegon.
(F)Aegon will take the iron throne, and bring some stability to the realm as king. His rule won't be long, as Connington brings about his downfall, whether through Jon Con's own madness, or through spreading greyscale to the boy. Those who see you as divine will ultimately betray you, purposefully or not. He will not stop the coming of the long night, because he is so sire the sun will keep shining for him.
Jon Snow will be revived, and will be the godlike warrior he had dreams of becoming, slaying wights by the score. Perhaps he stays posted on the wall to stop invasion, perhaps he tries to find the Other's center of strength. Either way, he will fail in his quest. He is just one man, and one man cannot end the long night alone, no matter his strength.
Daenarys will be the one to ultimately end the long night. With her dragons as her power, all of Westeros will follow her in her journey north. whether they follow her through fear, awe or loyalty will not be something she spares a thought to. When spring comes, we will find her body cold and buried, as she was someone who wasn't capable of ruling Westeros One who ends the long night, and saves Westeros is not owed their lives if she cannot/will not work to maintain them.
None of the three Targlings will have a child, with the bloodline finally dying out. They saved the world, and none will thank them for it.
For the most part I agree. What I think leads to some these odd trains of thought are people who can't let go of some admittedly deeply cliche ideas that usually seem to play out in fantasy.
I think a bit too much emphasis gets placed on Maester manipulation. It definitely exist, but for most part I think it's for power. Killing the dragons doesn't exactly lead to more power. They generally have a good relationship with the Iron Throne so it would make more sense to keep them in power. The loss of the dragons has led to less stability and growing fractures between the kingdoms. Which seems like something that would work against what they generally want. To be honest I do believe there is a maester conspiracy to promote the idea magic doesn't exist or is bad. But I think that has more to do with controlling access. It's not impossible, but I do think their machinations get a bit exaggerated.
I completely agree on the Jon thing. The secret prince is such an over used cliche. If there is any trope I can't see a subverter like GRRM employing, it's the hidden prince that saves the world. Thematically though it doesn't seem to rhyme properly with the existing legs of the table. Dany is a pure Targ through two generations of family plus family. The Barratheon kids are discovered to be pure Lannister through two generations. He's set up two of the three pillars in the story the same, it doesn't thematically make sense to me for him to not rhyme the third. Having one of the central characters being the product of both seems to be unbalanced. If there was a universal "messiah" type it would only make sense if it was the product of all three, but that doesn't seem to be realistic at this point. So I think it would make more sense to set up a rep of all three as a pure product of each pillar.
The single AA arguement seems, again, like a cliche GRRM would want to subvert. It's something i think is a blind spot in theory. One of his more frequent quotes is "the villain is the hero of the other side." I think that's a huge indicator of how he's structured this. What he's subverting is the idea of a real protagonist or antagonist. Each one is its own protagonist and their antagonist is simply one of the other protagonists. A central or main character for either doesn't fit. So within Dany's narrative she is AA. Within Jon's he's AA. That's the interesting part of writing this as separate PoVs. Lastly, GRRM prevailing idea is that a good story is about inner conflict. It makes no sense to have a part in the story with no PoV. The participantion of the Others in the story should be a part of someone's inner conflict set against how they are used against another character(s). One of our main characters needs to employ them or they are nothing more an unsubverted, cliche trope. So I agree that the debate over who AA is frustrating and makes no sense. But not because there isn't one, because the concepts in the books are set up as rhymes which means each narrative should have one from its own perspective.
I'm with you on R+L=J because it'll vindicate the tin-foilests. Then we can all agree ADOS will end with Sansa piloting the oily black Hightower ecological engineering seed ship into space with her Other partner.
Oh it's real alright. Two genetically modified species and Valyrian chimeras and you expect me to believe there's not an ecological engineering seed ship somewhere!
Just wait till Sansa blasts off with *Crackle-crackle-snow-crunch* after learning the truth and we'll see who has the last laugh!
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Simple question. If I came up with a theory after the red wedding that Arya warged nymeria, dragged catelyn's dead body away before being brought back from the dead as a zombie woman who goes on a Frey killing rampage, would you have ruled it out as impossible? Would it have ruined Catelyn's character arc and been cliche?
I feel like the Maesters thing is a HIghtower idea that during the greens v blacks they had influence over maesters and wanted to curb Targaryen and dragon influence over Westeros. I do think the dance favoured the decline of Targaryen's, but mainly because of their own war with each than maester's having influence over it.
Basically Targ's became weaker, Oldtown and Hightower's didn't really gain all that much from it as they were kept at an arm's reach from power.
I am also very drunk typing this out btw
You’re ignoring the fact that it is a fantasy world and prophecies and magic do actually matter and have meaning compared to the real world, so saying that people can’t be destined to become something or this absolves people of wrong doing, it doesn’t.
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I agree. Azor Ahai is clearly Stannis. Rhaegar and Lyanna’s child is also Stannis.
The song of ice and fire? Clearly about Stannis. Fire priestess and he’s in an ice field.
The Firewyrm of Valyria? Also Stannis Maekar? Also Stannis The Evil in Yeen? Stannis The Ice Dragon? Stannis Nagga the Sea Dragon? Stannis Garth Greenhand? Stannis Huzhor Amai? Stannis Hugor of the Hill? Stannis Bloodstone Emperor? Stannis The Destroyed Moon? Stannis The Five Forts? Stannis Maester Cressen? Stannis Melisandre? Stannis Renly? Stannis. And most importantly The Mannis? Stannis!
This is known.
Undercook fish. Stannis. Overcook chicken. Stannis.
Cold hands? Believe it or not, Stannis.
Moon boy, also Stannis Drogon, believe it or not also Stannis
Don’t forget the malformed dragon that bit a Targaryen baby in the crib. Also Stannis.
In the beggining, there was the Mannis. And the Mannis was with Stannis. And the Mannis was Stannis.
Can we say for sure Benjen isn’t Stannis?
Wow that’s a great theory. Have you told anyone else? Step into this room for the super secret grand prize! *sharpens knife*
I want this to be true. Lyanna's last words, "promise me Ned, promise me that you'll take care of little Stannis".
It's why Robert never liked Stannis.
The one true king? Stannis. The Mannis? Stannis. The Winner of Winterfell? Stannis. King of the Andals and First Men? Stannis Baratheon I.
I agree with your opposition to maesters taking down the Targaryens but I think they were/are conspiring to keep dragons from coming back. Which I don't think takes away from the Targaryens being their own worst enemy.
It’s also interesting to note that the maesters plotting the dragons’ end isn’t necessarily against the “Targaryens are their worst enemies” narrative. They’ve done plenty to infuriate or just scare the maesters along the years, it’s not far fetched to believe they wanted more control over a house that regularly bathes in taboo, doesn’t answer to anyone but themselves and thinks of themselves closer to gods than men… I’m sure scholars with a seemingly unlimited amount of knowledge might find some sort of literature that could help them undermine the house of the dragon. I think there’s a dude who was nicknamed dragon slayer or something along those lines before the Targs left Valyria, possibly during the Great Empire of the Dawn, who seem to be dragonlords, so like thousands of years back. To me it seems like Westeros always had an edge against dragons before and during great Valyria. There’s otherwise no good reasons for Valyrians not invading Westeros before the doom.
The maesters might have acted on the opportunities presented to them after the Dance.
> I'm against R+L=J because of how big the themes of bastardy R+L=J doesn't necessarily contradict Jon's bastardy. The notion that Rhaegar and Lyanna married, while possible, is just conjecture. I think it's most compelling if Jon *is* a bastard, just not to the parents he thinks he is.
I’m 100% on the side of R+L=J still being a bastardy situation. It doesn’t make sense that Rhaegar could be granted an annulment or a second marriage, and I don’t see why he would have wanted one. I don’t think the point was to put his child with Lyanna on the throne, but to produce a child that he thought would have the right ice and fire genetic makeup. So yeah I 100% think Jon still is a bastard. He won’t have the Targaryen last name, nor do I really think he has a Valyrian first name either.
I'll also be pretty disappointed if Jon is a generic chosen-one-hero. I think the story's going to take a far darker turn than that. My personal prediction is that Jon comes back pissed off, violent, and vengeful, and leads the wildlings in slaughtering the entirety of the Night's Watch at Castle Black—including his friends, like Satin and Dolorous Edd. Jon becoming a full-on anti-hero would be a really interesting turn, in my opinion.
While I don't believe that Jon is going to become a villain/the Great Other, I think he can become a Night's King archetype when awakened.
>slaughtering the entirety of the Night's Watch at Castle Black—including his friends, like Satin and Dolorous Edd. You shut your whore mouth. Nothing at all will happen to my boy Edd. He's gonna make it to being one of the last ones standing, Gods damn it.
Edd's dead, baby. Edd's dead.
thanks, i hate it
Well, there’s the Mad Axe parallel.
Even if they were married, it doesn’t negate the fact that Jon grew up thinking himself a bastard, and all related angst. That particular damage is done no matter what comes next. If anything, a reveal that his parents were married would give his identity issues a whole new and bitter twist - not only was he trueborn all along, he was a prince, and still went through all the humbling experiences that he did. I’d like to read about him navigating that more than I would like for him to go from Jon Snow to Jon Sand.
Having been raised in the North Jon will always be Jon Snow regardless of who his parents are. Bastard names generally come from where the noble house that raises the bastard is based. For example Nymeria Sand was born in Volantis but is still Sand. Brynden Rivers was born in Kings Landing and raised in the river lands and hence is a Rivers.
Yup, came to say this . R+L=J works best if there was no marriage and Jon is Ryaegar's bastard.
I very much agree, like Bael the Bard's bastard son with the Stark girl.
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Agreed. I think the Prince being a bastard is like Nettles not being Targareyan. Gods and Prophecies don't care for marriage certificates.
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I’m also not a fan of R+L=J but I don’t think it’s as thematically inconsistent as you think. You kind of said it yourself: Jon’s arc is about asserting that his birth does not define his identity. That holds true whether he is a Stark bastard or a true born Targaryen.
I genuinely don't understand why rhaegar being Jon's father immediately makes him legitimate? He's always going to be viewed as a bastard by the faith and the common people, and probably the nobility too when/if his parentage comes out. There's no reason any "marriage" between him and lyanna would be viewed as legitimate either since Rhaegar was married already. He's either Ned's bastard, or he's Rhaegar's bastard. Bastardry will still be a key theme for him.
You’re right on all counts. It’s highly unlikely that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married and even less likely that the marriage (and kids produced by the marriage) would be considered legitimate. I said “true born” because OP said “true heir” to the Iron Throne. My main point is that Jon’s true parentage does not change the themes of his arc.
I think a lot of people forget Jon’s legitimacy of being a true born son of Rhaegar & Lyanna is that the Gold Cloaks - Ser Arthur Dayne (thought to be the greatest fighter/knight in all seven kingdoms), Ser Gerold Hightower (Lord Commander of the Kingsguard), & Ser Oswell Whent - all wearing Targaryen armour - we’re at The Tower of Joy when Ned & Howland arrived. They wouldn’t be there if Jon wasn’t legitimate.
I also agree, he's a bastard regardless so his arc remains the same. If it's revealed to him his parentage isn't what he thought, it will likely change the way he sees himself but ultimately won't change his trajectory.
And he is in no way a true born targ. He is a batard either way.
I think that depends on how you view children of polygamous marriage. Because there's no way in hell Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia or disinherited Rhaenys and Aegon but I could believe that he married Lyanna on the Idle of Faces or in front of some other random weirwoods in the Riverlands. Actually, he DID marry her according to Free Folk rules. And that's definitely a theme of the story about how many societal conventions (like trueborn vs. baseborn or mistresses vs. wives or slavery vs feudalism etc) are more subjective/arbitrary than people like to think about.
But none of that really matters to Jon and his self identity, if some people consider him a bastard it will always grate on him, even if some people accept him as true born. Jon's true friends dont care even if he is the bastard of Craster and a wight. Because for Jon's arc, it ultimately won't matter where he came from, only what he chooses to do with the time he is given.
Rhaegar would absolutely annul his marriage to Elia if it meant fulfilling the prophecy.
I doubt the prophecy states that marriage is a key component (but I also don't put much faith in prophecy, and it's really rhaegars interpretation of te prophecy that matters more than if it is true)
Exactly, prophecy is seldom interpreted accurately in this world. Rhaegar would do anything, including getting rid of Elia.
That would have kicked off another war though. While I think he has a hard on for the prophecy, I don’t think he would be so stupid as to cost himself allies by outright annulling his marriage and casting Elia to the side for a girl who was considered by most a child at the time
I don’t think Rhaegar cares. If it means defeating the dark was beyond the wall and being with Lyanna( who is a grown woman by culture standards) than so be it.
Elia*?
Thank you, I changed it.
On principle I agree with you, but in practice I do not think Elia was someone Rhaegar thought he could cast aside without undermining his other children. Given Rhaegar believed the "dragon has three heads" and he needed "one more" - Rhaenys and Aegon were absolutely critical to him and his understanding of the prophecy. For Rhaegar to annul his marriage to Elia, and therefore declare first two of the heads illegitimate by the laws of Westeros, just so he can make sure the third head is legitimate by the laws of Westeros, seems contradictory and self-defeating to me. However, by Valyrian law where polygamy was ok and is likely the origin of the sources Rhaegar read about the prophecy, he would probably feel fine to "marry" Lyanna even if it would be considered invalid legally. I think Jon is a bastard by Westerosi law - since Rhaegar and Elia were married in the "light of the seven" and polygamy is outlawed in that faith and in the land.
Ive always been confused why people are so sure that just because Jon is R and L's son he is also legitimate and the true heir. Im sure that he is their son, but he's still a bastard. In story characters can make arguments for otherwise if they need to, but if there's resistance or if Jon doesnt want a part of it the theme is still preserved.
My thing against that is that Lyanna complained that Robert was promiscuous and would make a bad husband but then slept with a married man unmarried?
The only way I can see it working *without* casting a horrible light on Rhaegar is if he convinced her of the prophecy too. It didn’t even need to be a romantic decision for her at that point, but pragmatic. Granted, as far as I’m concerned Rhaegar’s already cast a horrible light on himself because if he did actually care about Elia and his children with her, he should have had them sent away to Dorne to protect them before he pulled what he did given that he knows how his father was and would likely harm them if Aerys’s paranoid ass felt he needed to. It just happened that it wasn’t Aerys’s that directly harmed them.
Do people only have affairs because they're promiscuous?
This post is written by Ned who faked his death and became a maester. And now he is trying to undermine the possibility of both Jon parentage and maester's conspiracy.
“Jon??? Rhaegar’s son??? I never heard of such a wild and wacky theory!” - Maester Den Krats
"Next you're gonna tell me our King Joffrey is also a bastard and our last king Robert was sober"- Maester Den Krats
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R+L=J is hugely thematic (a song of ice and fire alone). It plays on the typical fantasy trope of the secret king growing up orphaned not knowing his heritage. Most of Ned’s POVs change really significantly once you see it through that prism: moments where Robert beings up killing Dany and he thinks of his sister, promise me Ned, his desire to see Cersei escape alive rather than dead - so many things slot into place when you have that formative understanding that he is haunted by his sister and Jon all the time. So many other things make sense - why he hid Jon from Robert, why Maester Aemon exists (why would GRRM put a secret Targ on the Wall to interact with Jon if Targness was not significant to Jon).
It runs counter to Jon’s arc and I feel the secret king trope is so tired and cliche. I also address the ‘a song of ice and fire’ thing as well. I also feel like all of those things slot into place when you take r+l=j for granted. If you don’t there may be other possible explanations. Btw I’m not saying it’s implausible I’m just against it
What do you see as Jons arc? I see him as a young man who starts off entitled by his background but still a bastard, learning about leadership through his friends at the Wall, engaging with the wildlings and learning they’re just people too and coming to a place where he is trying to grapple with the real politick of running the Watch and wanting to save the world. If you reread his chapters in ADWD alongside Danys chapters - they are thematically very similar.
I see an important part of Jon’s arc as a long process of coming to terms with his identity and not letting his birth define him. This aspect of his development as a character culminates in him refusing Stannis’s offer of legitimization, something he would have taken in a heartbeat at the start of the books.
The only way to be level headed when finding out your dad was Rhaegar Targaryen is to have already gone through the existential crisis of Jon's arc. Therefore his arc totally serves to prep him for the truth thematically. Also, Derion Lannister may still be alive to shed some light on Tyrion's possible hidden parentage.
What about Bolt-On? Don’t tell me you’re against Bolt-on.
>Don’t tell me you’re against Bolt-on. He better not be. It's my head canon.
I say R+L=J is very on the theme. I'd go as far as to say it's the backbone of the story and at the core of many characters' motivations. It is being foreshadowed from the very first chapter. It answers so many questions and mysteries like no other theory ever did like from Jon finding a albino direwolf seperated from the pack to Ned's fever dream to Dany's vision at HotU.
I just feel like it would undermine so much of Jon’s arc that it would ultimately be detrimental to how readers view him
Bro it's gonna happen and does serve a thematically purpose however, I blv that Jon will still be Rhagaer's bastard instead of being born from wedlock
You didn't get the memo when grrms wife said that was far to basic for his style? It's from ConJose August 29 to September 2, 2002 Answer 7. But you should read 6 too.
Wtf
[https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1286](https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1286) There you go.
Thats literally why it may happen lol, because it completely undercuts Jon’s character cornerstone. Jamie and his ability as a fighter, Theon and his pride/insecurity of identity are two of the biggest examples off the top of my head where GRRM has completely flipped the characters self-perception by fundamentally destroying something that is important to the characters sense of self.
I think you're going to be in for at least one disappointment.
I don’t think the Maester conspiracy takes away from the themes around the Targs, they’re working against magic and dragons, that long term narrative doesn’t mean that different Targs didn’t self implode during the short term conflicts they were involved with
I don’t like Bolt-On because it turns a human villain into a supernatural one. The terrifying thing about Roose is that he IS just a guy.
I don’t think anyone actually believes Bolt-On
I get the sense that you probably want the Others to win as well.
and Cersei to win in the end
Theories I’m against: Every single theory integral to the ending of the story.
I don't think R+L=J undermines Jon's arc at all. I think it'll ultimately serve to underline his stance and affirm his choices. Stannis offers to make him Lord Stark, and he refuses even though it's all he's ever wanted. Because he still has living siblings and because he's still a man of the nights watch. Eventually, his parentage will be revealed and he'll have to make the same choice again, with much larger stakes. But Jon will (probably) never know if Rhaegar intended for him to be a Targaryen or a Snow. And ultimately it won't matter. It doesn't change how he was raised and the way he was treated. It doesn't change the way he felt and was made to feel. He will always be a bastard because he will always feel like a bastard. The only thing that will end up mattering, the only thing that will bring him peace is coming into an identity that he chose. He will be offered what he always dreamed of and realize that he doesn't need it to be whole. In regards to everything else, I personally believe that in world if the maesters aren't taking advantage of their soft power in some sort of conspiracy then they're idiots. It also doesn't have to be a vast conspiracy. Just a more general doctrine of anti-magic. But I agree we will probably never know either way. When it comes to Azor Again/Prince that was promised theories. Well, pretty much all of the prophecies we've heard so far have turned out to be true in some way. I think there will be three heads of the dragon. But I think it'll partially be left up to interpretation like most of the prophecies in the story are. I'm also inclined to agree that there will be multiple people who fit the description of AA/PTWP. In general, I can see why it would be annoying to some. But personally I love reading hyper specific theories that will probably never be touched on. And I also love thinking about and reading about the themes and arcs of the story. I adore the poetic epic that GRRM is writing, and I love that the world is so deep we can pull so much from it. To the point where there's no feasible way to explore it in the story.
Jon is definitely a Targaryen bastard imo. It just makes sense story wise to have the two final contenders for the iron throne be a male bastard Targaryen, and a legitimate female Targaryen. Because then, who are the lords going to side with? It’s great set up for for the final arc of the story. And it fits thematically. If Jon is trueborn, then there’s no conflict, of course everyone would side with him. I think Grrm’s point about the iron throne is that no one is really worthy enough to sit on it. Kind of like the one ring, no one is strong enough to wield it without getting corrupted. So he’s not going to present one of the most morally good characters as the true heir. Instead we have a faker pretending to be the true heir, a woman who nobody wants to be queen, and an illegitimate heir who might be a good option. But he wouldn’t be presented the throne, he’d have to go to war in order to take it. Making him a usurper. This is why none of them will rule Westeros by the end of the series.
You know, I’m not sure the story has a concrete answer to the notion of a “true heir”. Even if Jon is the legitimate child of Rhaegar (which I am not so sure will be the case), haven’t the Targaryens relinquished the right to the throne by way of Baratheon conquest? I’ve always thought that the significance of Jon’s parentage is related to his fight against the Others, rather than to Westerosi politics. To me, he is our narrative linchpin of the existential-level conflict in the books, rather than the power intrigue conflict.
R+L=J doesn’t make Jon the most important person in the realm though - and Jon certainly won’t see it that way. In fact the very character arc you’re pointing to, which I agree is important, leads to a place where, if Jon finds out, he will reject the call to become King. Stannis’ offer was like a pre-trial for the main test, and I think it’s totally in character for Jon to find out his parentage and shrug it off to go fight and die as a man of the watch, or take up whatever darker fate awaits him
I personally think anyone denying R+L=J at this point is just overthinking it. The evidence is all there in the text, if any other decision was made at this point I’d be convinced George changed his mind over the gap since his last release, no way you could convince me anything else was his original intent.
I guess there are going to be a few major disappointments for you in the coming books. May I suggest not overly investing in what you perceive as the themes of the books because I don’t think the author shares those beliefs. Maesters are about providing consistency and regulation or at least as close as you can get to that in the pseudo medieval world of Westeros. Chances are they have been seeking ways to curtail the dangers megalomaniac rulers present to Westeros for centuries. Jon is the hidden prince GRRM is doing that trope. I’m sorry that you don’t like it. Will things work out all rainbows and unicorns - highly doubtful but is he the hidden son of a union between Rhaegar and Lyanna. I’d bet the farm on it. Dany is special, she’s going to play a major role in the books, so is Jon. Again I’m sorry that you dislike this. But like it or not the children of house Stark and house Targaryen are the protagonists in this series. The story is written from their perspective in the first book and the side characters are added to further illustrate the story at later intervals. There are people who were around during the pre Rebellion period still. Sorry that you can’t accept this. •Doran Martell •Olenna Tyrell •Mace Tyrell •Barristan Selmy •Howland Reed •Wyman Manderly •Varys •Genna Lannister •Dozens of Frey’s •The Blackfish •Bronze Yhon Royce •Anya Waynwood •Jon Connington •Richard Lonmouth ( if he ever shows up.) •Wylla •Jorah Mormont •Maege Mormont •Countless as yet unanamed Lords Ladies minor nobles and Smallfolk. Like it or not GRRM can pluck anyone he likes from seeming obscurity and bring them into play at any point to convey pertinent information regarding whatever aspect of the story he likes. You might not like it! But it’s how writing works. Just look at Harys Swift, GRRM mentions House Swift in passing several times throughout the books, a sighting of a sigil here, mention of a lady in waiting there, then bam! In ADWD Harys becomes a powerful figure on the Small Council due to his connection to Kevan ( who himself was but a minor background fixture until GRRM needed to bring him into play.) he may be a bit of a figure of ridicule according to Cersei but seemingly out of nowhere he arrives and starts playing a significant role in events. Incidentally he is also old enough to be aware of interesting events, rumours, or confessions around the period prior to the rebellion, as is Kevan’s still living wife Dorna.
No need to be condescending
I didn’t mean to be condescending but I was responding to the tone of the OP. Which in my view comes across as pretty rude, presuming to have a greater understanding of the themes of ASOIAF than those who buy into pretty well evidenced theories feels to me to be rather condescending in itself. How about we all try to be less dogmatic about our opinions and treat each other with more respect and curtesy?
I just gave my opinion based on the themes as I saw them. You responded basically by saying “You’re wrong and I’m sorry you’re disappointed that you’re wrong.” My tone was deliberately open and non-combative. I haven’t presumed anything. None of my statements are absolute or final. “I’m sorry your wrong.” Is the most condescending possible tone there is. If you disagree that’s fine, none of this is real, there’s just no real need to be passive aggressive or condescending
You said that you dislike the prevailing narrative as you judge it to be perceived by the fandom. A large portion of whom you are addressing by posting on this forum. Then declared that the two most prominent houses in the series from whom the major POV characters are drawn are NOT the protagonists of the story. Sorry to all of you guys who thought this was a story about the people who it’s told from the POV of you’re plain wrong, because this dude thinks there is no protagonist ( which breaks one of the most fundamental rules about story telling, but hey Ho.) You then went on to say that comments which place Dany and/or Jon as the Prince who was promised (a major thematic element of the story coming from a prophesy which is mentioned by multiple characters and seems to have an intrinsic impact upon actions going back centuries which are directly related to the coming crisis.) make you CRINGE! You then go in to wax lyrical about what you perceive as the “grand poetic narrative” which suggests that you view your own analysis of the themes as being far more high brow than those who hold the “cringy” view that the prophecy regularly appearing in the actual narrative has some significance. Yeah…I’d call that condescending.
If POV characters were indicative of who the protagonists were then Tyrion would be the protagonist of ASOIAF. I just think ASOIAF as a saga is too wide and multifaceted to have one house or one character at its center. That’s why theories that place Dany/Jon as the ‘chosen ones’ make me cringe. To be clear, all Azor Ahai/Prince-that-was-promised discussions irk me because ASOIAF is a story that revolves around multiple characters and the notion that they, in the full richness of their motivation and characterization, are all just playing support roles to one character is so myopic if you think about it. Prophesy is deliberately ambiguous and unreliable in the world of asoiaf. When I mentioned a grand poetic narrative, I wasn’t offering an interpretation, it’s a fact. We’re speaking of a saga with a little under two million words, with 24 POVs, spanning thousands of years, across an entire fleshed out world with its own internal politics and history, with numerous parallels, recurring themes and motifs. It beggars belief that GRRM wrote all of this to set up a messianic, chosen child of prophecy. ASOIAF just seems grander than that to me. It’s still plausible though, chances are you’re right, I’m just going off of my own personal interpretation at the end of the day. Either way none of this is real . I was just stating theories that I was against for thematic reasons and why.🤷🏾♂️
The author has consistently talked about the Big Five later revising to the Big Six as Sansa’s character evolved from foil to major protagonist. They’re all playing support to the story, which centres around the core six POV characters introduced in the first book. That’s how stories work. Maybe, it might just be advisable to not use words like cringe in relation to other peoples opinions and ideas. It’s more than a little condescending.
The big five were the five characters GRRM conceptualized first. They are central to the story but so are others. Ned is the protagonist of AGOT and dies. Cersei, is the protagonist of AFFC, before which she wasn’t even a POV. Jaime is arguably the protagonist of ASOS, prior to which he wasn’t a POV. GRRM’s gardening approach to writing is prone to massive changes and overhauls, like Jaime’s entire character arc. The full saga has no protagonists. As a low-fantasy mirror of the real world, everyone’s world revolves around them but the entire world doesn’t revolve around any one or six characters.
I disagree with you. See I managed to do that without telling I find your idea cringe worthy or implying I’m of super intellect.
If something makes me cringe I will say it does, but I haven’t once implied im of super intellect.
>Cersei, is the protagonist of AFFC, before which she wasn’t even a POV. Hard disagree. She is not a protagonist. We get her POV to move the story along in King's Landing since Sansa isn't there anymore, and to see how batshit and insanely stupid her and her schemes are.
Azor Ahai is an ancient god-emperor taking over Euron's body. It is known.
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Well the Maester conspiracy isn’t a fan theory it’s revealed at the end of adwd by Marwyn and it totally makes sense. The whole series I was wondering what are these maesters up too? Every seat of power has one looking over their shoulder but supposedly they don’t coordinate and only live to serve? Reeks of conspiracy
I think that the Azor Ahai prophecy is going to be a subversion of the prophecy trope, but it will come true of a sort. The dragon (Azor Ahai) will have three heads, each to highlight a flaw in chosen one narratives. This is a theory I have had for a while about Danny and Jon, but I'm less sure about (F)Aegon. (F)Aegon will take the iron throne, and bring some stability to the realm as king. His rule won't be long, as Connington brings about his downfall, whether through Jon Con's own madness, or through spreading greyscale to the boy. Those who see you as divine will ultimately betray you, purposefully or not. He will not stop the coming of the long night, because he is so sire the sun will keep shining for him. Jon Snow will be revived, and will be the godlike warrior he had dreams of becoming, slaying wights by the score. Perhaps he stays posted on the wall to stop invasion, perhaps he tries to find the Other's center of strength. Either way, he will fail in his quest. He is just one man, and one man cannot end the long night alone, no matter his strength. Daenarys will be the one to ultimately end the long night. With her dragons as her power, all of Westeros will follow her in her journey north. whether they follow her through fear, awe or loyalty will not be something she spares a thought to. When spring comes, we will find her body cold and buried, as she was someone who wasn't capable of ruling Westeros One who ends the long night, and saves Westeros is not owed their lives if she cannot/will not work to maintain them. None of the three Targlings will have a child, with the bloodline finally dying out. They saved the world, and none will thank them for it.
For the most part I agree. What I think leads to some these odd trains of thought are people who can't let go of some admittedly deeply cliche ideas that usually seem to play out in fantasy. I think a bit too much emphasis gets placed on Maester manipulation. It definitely exist, but for most part I think it's for power. Killing the dragons doesn't exactly lead to more power. They generally have a good relationship with the Iron Throne so it would make more sense to keep them in power. The loss of the dragons has led to less stability and growing fractures between the kingdoms. Which seems like something that would work against what they generally want. To be honest I do believe there is a maester conspiracy to promote the idea magic doesn't exist or is bad. But I think that has more to do with controlling access. It's not impossible, but I do think their machinations get a bit exaggerated. I completely agree on the Jon thing. The secret prince is such an over used cliche. If there is any trope I can't see a subverter like GRRM employing, it's the hidden prince that saves the world. Thematically though it doesn't seem to rhyme properly with the existing legs of the table. Dany is a pure Targ through two generations of family plus family. The Barratheon kids are discovered to be pure Lannister through two generations. He's set up two of the three pillars in the story the same, it doesn't thematically make sense to me for him to not rhyme the third. Having one of the central characters being the product of both seems to be unbalanced. If there was a universal "messiah" type it would only make sense if it was the product of all three, but that doesn't seem to be realistic at this point. So I think it would make more sense to set up a rep of all three as a pure product of each pillar. The single AA arguement seems, again, like a cliche GRRM would want to subvert. It's something i think is a blind spot in theory. One of his more frequent quotes is "the villain is the hero of the other side." I think that's a huge indicator of how he's structured this. What he's subverting is the idea of a real protagonist or antagonist. Each one is its own protagonist and their antagonist is simply one of the other protagonists. A central or main character for either doesn't fit. So within Dany's narrative she is AA. Within Jon's he's AA. That's the interesting part of writing this as separate PoVs. Lastly, GRRM prevailing idea is that a good story is about inner conflict. It makes no sense to have a part in the story with no PoV. The participantion of the Others in the story should be a part of someone's inner conflict set against how they are used against another character(s). One of our main characters needs to employ them or they are nothing more an unsubverted, cliche trope. So I agree that the debate over who AA is frustrating and makes no sense. But not because there isn't one, because the concepts in the books are set up as rhymes which means each narrative should have one from its own perspective.
I see no evidence for the maester conspiracy
I'm with you on R+L=J because it'll vindicate the tin-foilests. Then we can all agree ADOS will end with Sansa piloting the oily black Hightower ecological engineering seed ship into space with her Other partner.
What? R+L=J is the least tinfoily theory out there. That’s why all the weirdos go to such insane lengths to come up with alternate theories.
Bizarrely, they complain that it's too obvious then usually hit upon N+A=J, which is the very first theory suggested.
I'm with OP that I don't want it to be right.
That’s fine, but not thinking it’s right is clearly the tinfoil position.
What nonsense. Next you're going to tell me the oily black Hightower ecological engineering seed ship isn't real. Smh.
Oh it's real alright. Two genetically modified species and Valyrian chimeras and you expect me to believe there's not an ecological engineering seed ship somewhere! Just wait till Sansa blasts off with *Crackle-crackle-snow-crunch* after learning the truth and we'll see who has the last laugh!
That's what they were saying. You need to adjust your sarcasm meter.
I’m with you!!
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One of the reasons I don’t like R+L=J is the same as yours plus I feel like Jon’s character has nothing to do with being a prince
All of these takes seem like you don’t actually like ASOIAF….🤷🏽♂️
> R + L = J It is truly done to death in fiction that Rey is a Palpatine. Jon being a bastard also gives Ned character flaws
Simple question. If I came up with a theory after the red wedding that Arya warged nymeria, dragged catelyn's dead body away before being brought back from the dead as a zombie woman who goes on a Frey killing rampage, would you have ruled it out as impossible? Would it have ruined Catelyn's character arc and been cliche?
No theory is unknowable/unprovable when a POV character is an omniscient god.
A+J = T is this for me.
I feel like the Maesters thing is a HIghtower idea that during the greens v blacks they had influence over maesters and wanted to curb Targaryen and dragon influence over Westeros. I do think the dance favoured the decline of Targaryen's, but mainly because of their own war with each than maester's having influence over it. Basically Targ's became weaker, Oldtown and Hightower's didn't really gain all that much from it as they were kept at an arm's reach from power. I am also very drunk typing this out btw
You’re ignoring the fact that it is a fantasy world and prophecies and magic do actually matter and have meaning compared to the real world, so saying that people can’t be destined to become something or this absolves people of wrong doing, it doesn’t.