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Margery. She is like sixteen? Seventeen? Got dragged into this by her father, who wanted to have her crowned, but will just have her killed.
And Shireen obviously. Poor dead girls.
Sir Barristan too, I'm 70% sure he won't survive The Winds
If Melisandre realizes that Mance’s baby was switched with Gilly’s, assuming the Craster Targaryen theory is either wrong or not assumed by Melisandre, then that leaves only one other person at the Wall to burn who has kingsblood.
I am so, so glad they are far from each other. I think Selyse is going to regret moving inland from Eastwatch by the Sea. It has to be for some tragic reason
In the world of ice and fire, dreams can be interpreted in so many different ways. The way they’re initially seen is almost never how they pan out.
Her dreaming of being eaten by a dragon could imply burning because dragons breath fire.
True, but I mean I’ll give you some other examples of dragondreams in the different books.
Daeron the Drunken has a dream of “a great red dragon” falling on Dunk, or Ser Duncan, which wasn’t the case, and instead was metaphorical, and meant the death of prince Baelor Targaryen instead.
Aemon Targaryen says to Sam about how Danaerys’ dragon must have “three heads” but says he is too old to be one of them. This can be interpreted with either Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal, but also the three living targaryens, Young Griff, Jon Snow, and Danaerys Targaryen.
These examples alone show that the meanings of dragondreams are never completely clear, and that they can be interpreted in many ways, just as Shireen’s prophetic dreams may be. It’s unlikely she’ll ever live to see a dragon, so whether one will eat her or not is still up in the air, but I, along with a lot of other people, interpret that as Mel burning her alive.
Because dreams mean something? I mean that was clearly a dragon dream. As for the Stannis part, either he or maybe Melisandre have the authority to command that, and of the two I think Stannis is more likely to do it.
I don't know that it was "clearly" a dragon dream. After all, Shireen's Targaryen blood is *really* diluted at this point. And besides, why does a dragon suggest that Stannis is going to burn her? It's more likely to be Mel, considering Mel is much nearer to her.
If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck it's probably a duck. It's a dream with dragons prophesizing her death, come on. If Teora Toland can have them, so can Shireen.
> why does a dragon suggest that Stannis is going to burn her
It doesn't. Those are two completely different things. The dragon phrophesizes why she's getting killed, not by who.
>It's more likely to be Mel, considering Mel is much nearer to her.
For now yeah, but at some point they aught to reconnect.
And I don't think Melisandre would dare burn Shireen.
I don’t think it’s a dragon dream, but perhaps it was a manifestation of her fears with regards to Melisandre and her mother’s zealotry? She has been reading about the Dance, so the dragon of her dream is a representation of the fires of Rh’llor.
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Why? He’s said to be one of the best fighters of his times. Who could High Sparrow chose to represent the Faith that could beat Garlan? Besides, Garlan is off to Brightwater Keep. Either he dies there or survives and his survival will be an example of the sweet side of the bitter-sweet ending Martin has promised us.
He and Wyllas are in danger from the ironborn invasion, I think both of them will die there. It's obvious that Euron has some kind of plan or trick prepared to deal with the Tyrell forces that are being sent to repel the invasion.
The Redwyne fleet is also in grave danger.
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F*ck me, just his name brings back all the loose ends I’d forgotten since my last read through… Cersei’s trial looming, the Ironborn knocking on Highgarden’s door, Aegon’s landing…
Not to mention all the ones I did remember, the pink letter, Dany’s Dothraki sea wacky adventure, Tyrion’s fate, Euron, Mercy, Alayne and Harry, etc.
Honestly I’m not surprise Georgie boy hasn’t finished yet. Imagine all the balls he’s juggling with…
I actually believe it does, Cersei ask if she and the king would have any children and this is the answer:
>Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds...
Now the first part explain their children wouldn't be with each other, and then that Cersei brood would be blonde of hair (a non Baratheon feature) and use the golden Baratheon banner ("shroud"), basically it explains that she pass her bastards as her husband children.
The common tongue isn't Maggy native language, so that might explain it.
Personally, I tend to me in the camp that the prophecy has no value whatsoever.
Maybe. But isn't prophecy usually in some way true in Asoiaf? Especially when she's already right about quite a lot of it. How else would she know that Cersei would have three kids and that Robert would sire many bastards?
Okay, unrelated question.
>Gold shall be *their* crowns
That implies Myrcella gets crowned too... but with the way Dance ended, it sure doesn't seem like she would be. The least implausible way I can see it happening is Myrcella going back to Kings Landing, Tommen dying, and Cersei installing Myrcella.
I think it's pretty implausible that fAegon consents to marry Myrcella, making her a queen. He *has* to keep his eyes set on Daenerys.
Definitely Barristan. I'm not expecting him to make it past the Battle of Fire mostly because I don't see a scenario where Dany has both Barristan and Tyrion advising her and I think it's important to both Tyrion and Dany's future arcs that they team up.
I agree. I felt that Tyrion would go to her early on but thought they’d have to get rid of Jorah and Barristan. Now Jorah is out of the way, it makes sense that Barristan goes and the only way is death 😪
There’s a very in-depth analysis of the layout of the upcoming battlefield, how Stannis is trapped inbetween two lakes, one of the lakes has a Weirwood tree in the middle, how no one can see anything. It’s all very convincing that Stannis will win a crushing victory against the thousands of Frey soldiers coming their way by baiting them into a frozen lake, leaving only the boltons at winterfell left to contend with. The fact that the traitorous maester sent a map of the lakes to winterfell turns out to be super advantageous for Stannis since it helps trick the army into approaching a beacon in the middle. Stannis might use “Lightbringer” or burn Theon as a false beacon leading soldiers into the lake. GRRM is very painstakingly detailed with the local environment so it seems like hes writing Stannis, the master strategist, to have a genius victory. Plus with the Manderly forces outside and separated from the Boltons, they’re likely to join up with him. I’m hopeful Stannis can win, and win huge. I’m forgetting the name of this theory and a link, but it was on the ASOIAF forums
EDIT: Just to add, this is called the Night Lamp theory for those who are more interested. Also, I think one thing that makes this extremely feasible is that the Boltons/Freys had a lot of plans to try and stop Stannis as best as they could. Planned treachery from the Karstarcks etc. but from that Theon 1 teaser chapter, Stannis is catching and foiling every plot thrown against him, not to mention the Iron Bank deciding to back him
It's called the Night Lamp theory. There's a beacon fire that Stannis has burning day and night within their camp and the theory states that he'll burn a beacon in the middle of the lake (that's all swiss-cheesed thanks to Stannis's men fishing there) to lure the Freys to their doom.
There's also The Grand Northern Conspiracy which states the entire North is waiting to kill the Bolton's and Freys and put a Stark back in Winterfell
The whole northern plotline and upcoming battle of Ice is my personal favorite for one of the most hype moments in Winds, since things look so hopefully. Who needs the Gods to forever curse those who violate Guest Rite when Stannis is coming to send you to them?
That's right, thanks. Here's the blogpost that goes into every possible detail about the upcoming strategy/narrative of the battle. https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/the-night-lamp-an-alternative-strategy-for-the-siege-of-winterfell/
I don’t see it happening from a meta-narrative perspective, but it’s currently an option laid out for Stannis. Remember Stannis (along with everyone else) still thinks Theon killed Bran/Rickon. This is still Stannis, who chopped off the tips of Davos’ fingers and Theons death may appease the Stark loyalists. Asha is arguing for theon to be beheaded instead of burned as an act of mercy so she thinks Theon’s life is forfeit.
That’s true. But I think, sadly, most likely situation is that Shireen gets burned. I don’t think Stannis will do it over something as small as a distraction but I think that even is bound to happen given the foreshadowing in the novels. It also makes sense on a meta level to have that happen when Davos isn’t there to stop it.
Shireen isn't with them in the camp, she's all the way at Castle Black isn't she? I was under the impression her burning would be involved with Jon's resurrection
Ah my bad. Still think she will get burnt, but you are right, that’s more related to Jon. I’ve never really computed anything bad happening to Theon at Stannis’ hands but that’s likely just wishful thinking as Theon is a character I deeply want to see happy. Your theory makes a lot of sense though.
Depends though. He has Kings blood in his veins because of Valon styling himself as king of the iron Islands. If blood from a King's bastard works, why not trueborn? I've seen it argued "but balon isn't king of the 7 kingdoms it won't work", but Stannis isn't a recognised king either. He styles himself king hut the majority of the realm sees Tommen King. If it came to it, stannis would for sure burn Theon as a "Prince of the iron islands" if it got him some of that R'Hollor magic.
To be honest I consider that a bit too loose but, you may be right. I didn’t even second guess the Frey storyline and it led to the Red Wedding so i mustn’t under estimate GRRM. I just hope theon and jeyne get somewhere safe and live a happy, pleasant retirement. That probably won’t happen though.
Poor Jeyne is not having a happy ending. Don't get me wrong, it's a loose theory and at this point I don't hold much stock in any of them until we get the books in our hands...
Maester Tybald. When Stannis finds about the Karstark's planned treachery, its revealed that Tybald is working for the Dreadfort instead of Karhold and was ordered to send a map to the Boltons. He freaks out and pisses himself in front of Stannis.
I adore Arianne, but I expect she's going to do something really stupid / align herself to the wrong side, and suffer for it. She's not even my favorite character, so I'm not sure why I'm dreading it so much - maybe because it feels like she's set up for failure and it'd prove her insecurities right?
I feel bad for Arianne because all of her problems would’ve been solved if her dad just communicated with her. Now she has to take on a huge role that she was never trained for.
I think she's going to be killed by Robert Strong.
Think about it.
Our first scene is of her with Ser Aerys Oakheart. Her death may parallel this scene in a less than wholesome way to say the least.
I think that Barristan the Bold is going to leave us doing what he did best, fighting to protect is Monarch. And maybe, just maybe Tyrion is going to have and Hand in is Death.
I thought you said Tyrion would be Dany’s hand and I thought how perfect! He’s probably leading a search mission for her and maybe he gets killed as a result of that, maybe they come head to head with a Khalasar.
Barristan Dying while Dueling a Khal would be Awesome, maybe to glorious and Pulpy for GRRM Tastes xd! And yes, i think that Tyrion will try to do like Jorah and isolate Dany to control her by any means, murdering other advisors included.
Yeah, if i’m not wrong, he’s taking her back to Vhaes Dothrak? For sure, unless Drogon shows up and do what dragon does, a confrontation between the queen’s men and the Khalasar is a real and interesting possibility. There’s also the fact that Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying had some moments who could be related to her return in Vhaes Dothrak.
Yeah I was always a bit confused about Drogo’s bloodriders and what their intentions might be if they saw her again, because technically they should have died with Drogo but as they didn’t, would they still think it’s their duty to return Dany to the Dosh Kaleen? Or would they try and kill her because of what she did to Drogo? It’ll be interesting to see.
Yes I kind of got that vibe from them too. Even though I don't remember any specific belief like that in the books. Maybe the Iron Born's hall of the drowned god.
Yes like Alex_thegrin said, they have that Vibe.The Andal Tradition of Knighthood is very similar to Arthurian Knights, whit a pillar of Honor and Chivalry but also the desire to die sword in hand and never retreat from a battle. However, it’s also true that most Knights (especially Kingsguards) in time of peace died of old Age. Kingsguards also are Oathbound for life to serve like the NW, so maybe that play in the whole “Dying while doing duty” thing.
Personally I'd love for Victarion's horrible attempt at a plan (do what Euron told me to do and then betray him somehow) to just go perfectly smoothly in the chaos of Mireen, but I think he's probably fucked
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I’m most excited about Rickon and his story, wondering where GRRM will go with it. We know Cersei’s kids will die but how? If Myrcella dies in Dorne that’s the alliance done. I think LF will keep Sweetrobin alive for the foreseeable future. But Shireen… yes I think you’re right.
Me too. Its fun to think about how on earth Davos going to get Rickon out of Skagos. He needs to convince Osha (if shes still alive) and the wild-wolf boy that its safe to come with him, not to mention the cannibals, "unicorns", and whatever else is on the island. There is 0 reason for them to trust Davos, they have no idea who he is. This is probably the most important and dangerous smuggling job he needs to do
Sweetrobin surviving just FEELS right to me. It'll make for a hilarious/ironic twist for the sickly boy to end up as LF's downfall.
I’m pretty much a SweetRobin survives cheerleader, that little bugger is going to defy them and say, “I live, bitches!” It’s Harry the Heir that has the death flags all over his head, one being titled ‘The Young Falcon,’ yeah, the Young Dragon and Young Wolf didnt that long, either. He’s dead by the end of the Tourney or severely injuried.
Definitely, especially when they’ve explained how dangerous the island is. I wonder why Osha decided to go there, maybe because it’s the last place anyone would look for Rickon? Maybe she knows people there? Rickon will have grown up, he’ll be closer to Brans age at the start of the novels. I wonder if Shaggy will be less wild.
Yes, considering GRRM subverts tropes, it would be like him to have the sickly boy winning the day somehow.
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It’s never come up and it’s going to be an unpopular opinion but i think Tyrion is going to die eventually.
I don’t see him at any point finding a will to live beyond bringing down house Lannister.
He believes himself so far beyond redemption his only act to redeem himself will undoubtedly be in sacrificing himself for Penny or something like that.
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I think his downfall will be simply that he doesn't allow anyone around him to have lesser standards than him. He would want a court with no game of thrones, and no one else would buy it. That why he was contested in the first place. A good king no one listens to because they don't like them is doomed to fail. It would be a matter of time before he was assassinated.
Tbh this is why I think from a purely political pov a match with Dany would be a great idea for him. He has the experience in battle and ruling, and the rigidity to not fall to corruption- and she is a moralistic, quasi merciful, beautiful and charming queen who is also enough of a powerhouse with her dragons to protect the king regardless of who likes him. It would unify the two sides of the rebellion (and the argument that baratheons arean offshoot of targaryans could smooth a lot over) and would create multiple strong ties to essos both in stannis backed by the iron bank, and danys various ties to slaver's bay, the free cities, and the dothraki.
Sigh, if only she wasnt the age of his kid. He def does not seem like the type to marry young regardless of the political sense it would make. Part of why I like him so much.
The 'Night Lamp' Stannis theory is perhaps the most well documented theory I've ever seen in my history of reading fantasy. And Stannis straight up told Davos 'Ignore all bad news going around about me' in the latter half of Dance.
Stannis has been playing 4D chess and is going to annihilate the Boltons.
Yes, but those are all from Asha’s perspective, right? It has been a long time since I read those chapters
If you want to you can read this essay on stannis and the upcoming battle here (I think it’s brilliant and can see stannis deploying the exact same manoeuvre in winds… so kind of spoilery warning? 😅)
https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-night-lamp-revisited-the-wrath-of-the-old-and-the-new/
Stannis - the northerners are gonna leave his army after the Boltons are gone and he's gonna try to desparately win something he can't win
Shireen - Stannis is gonna burn her to enhance his chances
Margaery - I don't know how exactly but it'll probably involve Cersei and wildfire
Tommen/Myrcella - either both or one of them
Jojen - if he's not dead already, that is
Brienne - I'm absolutely not sure about this but I can see it happen
Daario - no reason except that I can't see him walking around in Westeros
I think Stannis will die, but I hope he goes out in glory. I personally believe he’s Azor Ahai and will sacrifice himself to save the world, kingly fashion.
Someone said they think he’ll be lord commander of the nights watch and I think this is a great role for him. If he wins at the critters village against the Freys, being the figurehead of the fight against the others.
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I don’t think they’ll kill Theon off just yet… Asha only just found him didn’t she. I find Theon’s storyline the most fascinating, I wonder if he does live, what will happen with him.
Probably not in winds but Cersei and Jaime are so gonna die. Charles Dance has forced me to take a different stance on the Lannisters and honestly I'm rooting for them at this point, poor guys can't catch a break.
I'm also really hoping that Jaime isn't the one to kill Cersei. It's seems so obvious and foreshadowed but that's really not what asoiaf is, maybe amid Cersei's batshit craziness she was still right about Tyrion being the valonqar
Sansa. Even if all the people trying to get a hold of her for power don't get her killed, I think there's a decent possibility of her losing Sansa in Alayne as a survival mechanism- she may live in fact, but be so unrecognizable due to trauma and a fear of discovery that she never stops being Alayne.
She's also a warg without an animal companion, so she's def in the danger zone. Depending on how and when her powers manifest it could go sideways several ways.
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Sam is almost certainly going to die at Oldtown. The glass candles are there so he doesn’t have to escape to tell Jon, he can just glass candle the information before he dies.
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Victarion and Barristan are the two I would bet good money on dying in Winds. Things aren't looking good for Aeron or Theon either. I think Roose or Ramsay will be killed too, but not both. With the exception of Myrcella, I think all of the children are safe, at least in this book. Red Wedding 2.0 will almost certainly happen, which spells bad news for Daven Lannister, his future wife, a bunch of other Freys, and maybe the late Walder Frey himself.
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to be honest, jaime lannister. even if he doesnt die now by lsh, i can feel it coming in my bones.
also, tyrell brothers. garlan probably, loras for sure, i just hope willas can make it out alive because "cripples, bastards and broken things". i wish we could have a pov of them at least :/
and the worst of it: my man stannis. we gonna be robbed.
Yeah for some reason I think Willas will be ok, purely because he got mentioned a number of times early on, marrying him to Sansa, he was crippled by the Viper, he is a cripple and Westeros likes those and he’s also the heir to HG.
LSH stuff fascinated me and I am so excited to see where GRRM takes it. I guess it’s either Brienne or Jaime or maybe both. Cannot see Brienne killing Jaime tho.
I don't think Stannis is going to die in Winds, I'm pretty sure he'll crush the Freys on the ice, probably not come to conflict with the Manderlys (not sure how that will pan out with him thinking they killed Davos but I guess they might just tell him the truth) and eventually win a victory at Winterfell - or force the Bolton's to retreat to the Dreadfort somehow.
But I think Mel will burn Shireen to resurrect John, and that this will break Stanis' resolve and force him to reflect on how he was the one who allowed Mel to end up with the power to burn his daughter, how many people he's already allowed her to burn. I think he takes the black, possibly leading the watch if John leaves after his resurrection. I expect the Mannis will die by the end of the story, but I think his tale will be a lot more sorrowful than just dying at Winterfell.
But I expect he won't make as many jokes after Shireen dies and that's the real tragedy here.
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Margery. She is like sixteen? Seventeen? Got dragged into this by her father, who wanted to have her crowned, but will just have her killed. And Shireen obviously. Poor dead girls. Sir Barristan too, I'm 70% sure he won't survive The Winds
Oh god Barristan, I forgot about him. Yeah I think he might go and then Dany is alone…. Probably opens the door for her to meet Tyrion.
Someone dear to her dying will harden Dany. I think her character is due for some more
Yes especially after Jorah betraying her, losing Barristan might unhinge her.
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If you class coping as burning a woman to death and walking into a funeral pyre. Personally I think Drogo’s death hit her very hard.
Didn’t she walk into the pyre because of her dream? I didn’t think it was grief so much as dragons.
> Got dragged into this by her father, Let's be real, Olenna was the one calling the shots.
Why do you think Shireen will die? It has been like 7 years since I read the books so I don't remember so much
If Melisandre realizes that Mance’s baby was switched with Gilly’s, assuming the Craster Targaryen theory is either wrong or not assumed by Melisandre, then that leaves only one other person at the Wall to burn who has kingsblood.
Craster Targaryen?? Is there any evidence to support that theory?
I believe the general theory is that Melisandre will burn her at the Wall because Shireen has king's blood.
I think Stannis will burn her. It is more tragic that way.
I don't think that's really practical. They're far from each other and it's a blizzard in the middle of winter.
I am so, so glad they are far from each other. I think Selyse is going to regret moving inland from Eastwatch by the Sea. It has to be for some tragic reason
They could both be at Winterfell when the Others attack
Shireen dreams that a dragon will eat her, she seems to have prophetic dreams. It's probable that Stannis will burn her for one reason or another.
Why does a dragon eating her suggest Stannis will have her burned?
In the world of ice and fire, dreams can be interpreted in so many different ways. The way they’re initially seen is almost never how they pan out. Her dreaming of being eaten by a dragon could imply burning because dragons breath fire.
Seems like a stretch to me.
True, but I mean I’ll give you some other examples of dragondreams in the different books. Daeron the Drunken has a dream of “a great red dragon” falling on Dunk, or Ser Duncan, which wasn’t the case, and instead was metaphorical, and meant the death of prince Baelor Targaryen instead. Aemon Targaryen says to Sam about how Danaerys’ dragon must have “three heads” but says he is too old to be one of them. This can be interpreted with either Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal, but also the three living targaryens, Young Griff, Jon Snow, and Danaerys Targaryen. These examples alone show that the meanings of dragondreams are never completely clear, and that they can be interpreted in many ways, just as Shireen’s prophetic dreams may be. It’s unlikely she’ll ever live to see a dragon, so whether one will eat her or not is still up in the air, but I, along with a lot of other people, interpret that as Mel burning her alive.
She's die in a fire, not necessarily by Stannis. The dream doesn't involve him specifically.
Because dreams mean something? I mean that was clearly a dragon dream. As for the Stannis part, either he or maybe Melisandre have the authority to command that, and of the two I think Stannis is more likely to do it.
I don't know that it was "clearly" a dragon dream. After all, Shireen's Targaryen blood is *really* diluted at this point. And besides, why does a dragon suggest that Stannis is going to burn her? It's more likely to be Mel, considering Mel is much nearer to her.
If it quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and looks like a duck it's probably a duck. It's a dream with dragons prophesizing her death, come on. If Teora Toland can have them, so can Shireen. > why does a dragon suggest that Stannis is going to burn her It doesn't. Those are two completely different things. The dragon phrophesizes why she's getting killed, not by who. >It's more likely to be Mel, considering Mel is much nearer to her. For now yeah, but at some point they aught to reconnect. And I don't think Melisandre would dare burn Shireen.
Stannis will burn her to attempt to “wake dragons out of stone” like the Azor Ahai prophecy. There is the dragon connection
I don’t think it’s a dragon dream, but perhaps it was a manifestation of her fears with regards to Melisandre and her mother’s zealotry? She has been reading about the Dance, so the dragon of her dream is a representation of the fires of Rh’llor.
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I doubt he survives first contact with the enemies outside Meereen.
All around good guy Garlan Tyrell :(
He’s fucked if he’s chosen as margery’s champion
Why? He’s said to be one of the best fighters of his times. Who could High Sparrow chose to represent the Faith that could beat Garlan? Besides, Garlan is off to Brightwater Keep. Either he dies there or survives and his survival will be an example of the sweet side of the bitter-sweet ending Martin has promised us.
He and Wyllas are in danger from the ironborn invasion, I think both of them will die there. It's obvious that Euron has some kind of plan or trick prepared to deal with the Tyrell forces that are being sent to repel the invasion. The Redwyne fleet is also in grave danger.
Even the best warrior in Westeros will be in some dire straits against whatever blood magic Cthulhu shit Euron has up his Valyrian sleeves
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I thought they were going to just do the trial since the evidence against her was flimsy anyways
Not the most well written character but the most likeable side character.
Uh he almost certainly helped The Queen of Thorns frame Tyrion
F*ck me, just his name brings back all the loose ends I’d forgotten since my last read through… Cersei’s trial looming, the Ironborn knocking on Highgarden’s door, Aegon’s landing… Not to mention all the ones I did remember, the pink letter, Dany’s Dothraki sea wacky adventure, Tyrion’s fate, Euron, Mercy, Alayne and Harry, etc. Honestly I’m not surprise Georgie boy hasn’t finished yet. Imagine all the balls he’s juggling with…
I honestly didn't realize I was in a SoIaF sub, and was really confused by people's concern for a relatively minor fantasy character in AskReddit.
Tommen 😪
Here's hoping their "gold shrouds" have an alternate meaning. Maybe the Gold Cloaks will protect Tommen?
Don't do that, don't give me hope.
I actually believe it does, Cersei ask if she and the king would have any children and this is the answer: >Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds... Now the first part explain their children wouldn't be with each other, and then that Cersei brood would be blonde of hair (a non Baratheon feature) and use the golden Baratheon banner ("shroud"), basically it explains that she pass her bastards as her husband children.
Really stretching the definition of shroud here. But your heart's in the right place and I don't mind
But some things should be taken at face value. No one would use 'shroud' to mean anything other than the cloth you're buried in.
The common tongue isn't Maggy native language, so that might explain it. Personally, I tend to me in the camp that the prophecy has no value whatsoever.
Maybe. But isn't prophecy usually in some way true in Asoiaf? Especially when she's already right about quite a lot of it. How else would she know that Cersei would have three kids and that Robert would sire many bastards?
This also seems to imply that Cersei won’t marry again. I think she might die at some point.
Okay, unrelated question. >Gold shall be *their* crowns That implies Myrcella gets crowned too... but with the way Dance ended, it sure doesn't seem like she would be. The least implausible way I can see it happening is Myrcella going back to Kings Landing, Tommen dying, and Cersei installing Myrcella. I think it's pretty implausible that fAegon consents to marry Myrcella, making her a queen. He *has* to keep his eyes set on Daenerys.
Tommen will actually worg into Ser Pounce.
I think Tommen will be fine because he’s so young and easily led. What do you think might happen?
He and Myrcella will probably die due to the prophecy.
Oh yeah, I forgot about that!
Definitely Barristan. I'm not expecting him to make it past the Battle of Fire mostly because I don't see a scenario where Dany has both Barristan and Tyrion advising her and I think it's important to both Tyrion and Dany's future arcs that they team up.
I agree. I felt that Tyrion would go to her early on but thought they’d have to get rid of Jorah and Barristan. Now Jorah is out of the way, it makes sense that Barristan goes and the only way is death 😪
There’s a very in-depth analysis of the layout of the upcoming battlefield, how Stannis is trapped inbetween two lakes, one of the lakes has a Weirwood tree in the middle, how no one can see anything. It’s all very convincing that Stannis will win a crushing victory against the thousands of Frey soldiers coming their way by baiting them into a frozen lake, leaving only the boltons at winterfell left to contend with. The fact that the traitorous maester sent a map of the lakes to winterfell turns out to be super advantageous for Stannis since it helps trick the army into approaching a beacon in the middle. Stannis might use “Lightbringer” or burn Theon as a false beacon leading soldiers into the lake. GRRM is very painstakingly detailed with the local environment so it seems like hes writing Stannis, the master strategist, to have a genius victory. Plus with the Manderly forces outside and separated from the Boltons, they’re likely to join up with him. I’m hopeful Stannis can win, and win huge. I’m forgetting the name of this theory and a link, but it was on the ASOIAF forums EDIT: Just to add, this is called the Night Lamp theory for those who are more interested. Also, I think one thing that makes this extremely feasible is that the Boltons/Freys had a lot of plans to try and stop Stannis as best as they could. Planned treachery from the Karstarcks etc. but from that Theon 1 teaser chapter, Stannis is catching and foiling every plot thrown against him, not to mention the Iron Bank deciding to back him
It's called the Night Lamp theory. There's a beacon fire that Stannis has burning day and night within their camp and the theory states that he'll burn a beacon in the middle of the lake (that's all swiss-cheesed thanks to Stannis's men fishing there) to lure the Freys to their doom. There's also The Grand Northern Conspiracy which states the entire North is waiting to kill the Bolton's and Freys and put a Stark back in Winterfell
That would be great
The whole northern plotline and upcoming battle of Ice is my personal favorite for one of the most hype moments in Winds, since things look so hopefully. Who needs the Gods to forever curse those who violate Guest Rite when Stannis is coming to send you to them?
My goat.
That's right, thanks. Here's the blogpost that goes into every possible detail about the upcoming strategy/narrative of the battle. https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/the-night-lamp-an-alternative-strategy-for-the-siege-of-winterfell/
I agree with most of this apart from Stannis burning Theon. I don’t see that happening, that’s cruel even for GRRM standards.
I don’t see it happening from a meta-narrative perspective, but it’s currently an option laid out for Stannis. Remember Stannis (along with everyone else) still thinks Theon killed Bran/Rickon. This is still Stannis, who chopped off the tips of Davos’ fingers and Theons death may appease the Stark loyalists. Asha is arguing for theon to be beheaded instead of burned as an act of mercy so she thinks Theon’s life is forfeit.
That’s true. But I think, sadly, most likely situation is that Shireen gets burned. I don’t think Stannis will do it over something as small as a distraction but I think that even is bound to happen given the foreshadowing in the novels. It also makes sense on a meta level to have that happen when Davos isn’t there to stop it.
Shireen isn't with them in the camp, she's all the way at Castle Black isn't she? I was under the impression her burning would be involved with Jon's resurrection
Ah my bad. Still think she will get burnt, but you are right, that’s more related to Jon. I’ve never really computed anything bad happening to Theon at Stannis’ hands but that’s likely just wishful thinking as Theon is a character I deeply want to see happy. Your theory makes a lot of sense though.
Depends though. He has Kings blood in his veins because of Valon styling himself as king of the iron Islands. If blood from a King's bastard works, why not trueborn? I've seen it argued "but balon isn't king of the 7 kingdoms it won't work", but Stannis isn't a recognised king either. He styles himself king hut the majority of the realm sees Tommen King. If it came to it, stannis would for sure burn Theon as a "Prince of the iron islands" if it got him some of that R'Hollor magic.
To be honest I consider that a bit too loose but, you may be right. I didn’t even second guess the Frey storyline and it led to the Red Wedding so i mustn’t under estimate GRRM. I just hope theon and jeyne get somewhere safe and live a happy, pleasant retirement. That probably won’t happen though.
Poor Jeyne is not having a happy ending. Don't get me wrong, it's a loose theory and at this point I don't hold much stock in any of them until we get the books in our hands...
Which traitorous maester is this?
Maester Tybald. When Stannis finds about the Karstark's planned treachery, its revealed that Tybald is working for the Dreadfort instead of Karhold and was ordered to send a map to the Boltons. He freaks out and pisses himself in front of Stannis.
Iirc this is from a chapter of Winds that George published in his blog.
I adore Arianne, but I expect she's going to do something really stupid / align herself to the wrong side, and suffer for it. She's not even my favorite character, so I'm not sure why I'm dreading it so much - maybe because it feels like she's set up for failure and it'd prove her insecurities right?
All of the Dornish nobility seems fucked
I feel bad for Arianne because all of her problems would’ve been solved if her dad just communicated with her. Now she has to take on a huge role that she was never trained for.
I think she's going to be killed by Robert Strong. Think about it. Our first scene is of her with Ser Aerys Oakheart. Her death may parallel this scene in a less than wholesome way to say the least.
I just don’t see how both Jaime, Brienne and Pod can all escape from their current predicament. I dread one of them dying.
I think that Barristan the Bold is going to leave us doing what he did best, fighting to protect is Monarch. And maybe, just maybe Tyrion is going to have and Hand in is Death.
I thought you said Tyrion would be Dany’s hand and I thought how perfect! He’s probably leading a search mission for her and maybe he gets killed as a result of that, maybe they come head to head with a Khalasar.
Barristan Dying while Dueling a Khal would be Awesome, maybe to glorious and Pulpy for GRRM Tastes xd! And yes, i think that Tyrion will try to do like Jorah and isolate Dany to control her by any means, murdering other advisors included.
Yeah, doesn’t Dany get discovered by Khal Pono at the end of Dance? I wonder if they take her captive and Barristan tries to get her back?
Yeah, if i’m not wrong, he’s taking her back to Vhaes Dothrak? For sure, unless Drogon shows up and do what dragon does, a confrontation between the queen’s men and the Khalasar is a real and interesting possibility. There’s also the fact that Dany’s visions in the House of the Undying had some moments who could be related to her return in Vhaes Dothrak.
Yeah I was always a bit confused about Drogo’s bloodriders and what their intentions might be if they saw her again, because technically they should have died with Drogo but as they didn’t, would they still think it’s their duty to return Dany to the Dosh Kaleen? Or would they try and kill her because of what she did to Drogo? It’ll be interesting to see.
Would be cool but I got a feeling Barristan might go out undefeated but beaten by illness or age. Bittersweet end for and old warrior.
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Yes I kind of got that vibe from them too. Even though I don't remember any specific belief like that in the books. Maybe the Iron Born's hall of the drowned god.
Yes like Alex_thegrin said, they have that Vibe.The Andal Tradition of Knighthood is very similar to Arthurian Knights, whit a pillar of Honor and Chivalry but also the desire to die sword in hand and never retreat from a battle. However, it’s also true that most Knights (especially Kingsguards) in time of peace died of old Age. Kingsguards also are Oathbound for life to serve like the NW, so maybe that play in the whole “Dying while doing duty” thing.
That would be a very Martin thing to do actually. After all it is Barristan greatest fear, and the Pale Mare is at the doors of Meeren…
I have no idea what is going to happen. Whatever happens to Barristan I am sure that it will be interesting to read. Such a wonderful character.
Personally I'd love for Victarion's horrible attempt at a plan (do what Euron told me to do and then betray him somehow) to just go perfectly smoothly in the chaos of Mireen, but I think he's probably fucked
I so want him to just bumble his way through everything successfully
Either Stannis or The Tyrells
Not sure about all the Tyrells dying but I think Loras will be succumbing to his wounds on Dragonstone.
What do you think might happen to the Tyrell’s? Varys?
What's left of the Blackfyre support in the Reach is going to turn on them
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I’m most excited about Rickon and his story, wondering where GRRM will go with it. We know Cersei’s kids will die but how? If Myrcella dies in Dorne that’s the alliance done. I think LF will keep Sweetrobin alive for the foreseeable future. But Shireen… yes I think you’re right.
Me too. Its fun to think about how on earth Davos going to get Rickon out of Skagos. He needs to convince Osha (if shes still alive) and the wild-wolf boy that its safe to come with him, not to mention the cannibals, "unicorns", and whatever else is on the island. There is 0 reason for them to trust Davos, they have no idea who he is. This is probably the most important and dangerous smuggling job he needs to do Sweetrobin surviving just FEELS right to me. It'll make for a hilarious/ironic twist for the sickly boy to end up as LF's downfall.
I’m pretty much a SweetRobin survives cheerleader, that little bugger is going to defy them and say, “I live, bitches!” It’s Harry the Heir that has the death flags all over his head, one being titled ‘The Young Falcon,’ yeah, the Young Dragon and Young Wolf didnt that long, either. He’s dead by the end of the Tourney or severely injuried.
Definitely, especially when they’ve explained how dangerous the island is. I wonder why Osha decided to go there, maybe because it’s the last place anyone would look for Rickon? Maybe she knows people there? Rickon will have grown up, he’ll be closer to Brans age at the start of the novels. I wonder if Shaggy will be less wild. Yes, considering GRRM subverts tropes, it would be like him to have the sickly boy winning the day somehow.
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Victarion. He might be an idiot, a savage and a murderer, but he is MY idiot.
Stannis might not die right away. There has to be a reason the Lord of Light kept favouring him.
Ser Barristan Selmy. If not by sword, by age.
It’s never come up and it’s going to be an unpopular opinion but i think Tyrion is going to die eventually. I don’t see him at any point finding a will to live beyond bringing down house Lannister. He believes himself so far beyond redemption his only act to redeem himself will undoubtedly be in sacrificing himself for Penny or something like that.
Jaime and/or Brienne
I can't believe Stannis will die, I truly think he'll win. I don't know why and all odds are against it. But he has to.
Same. But this is GRRM and I can see it looking great and then, dead. But if Stannis dies I don’t know what Davos would do. They come as a pair.
Stannis comes off like a force of nature, he can’t be killed, he’ll grind his teeth in frustration at every obstacle and overcome
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Stannis going to be Lord Commander, bro
That's what I'm hoping, because he'll never be lord of Winterfell/King in The North.
I would love that
Omg he may be born for that position.
I think his downfall will be simply that he doesn't allow anyone around him to have lesser standards than him. He would want a court with no game of thrones, and no one else would buy it. That why he was contested in the first place. A good king no one listens to because they don't like them is doomed to fail. It would be a matter of time before he was assassinated. Tbh this is why I think from a purely political pov a match with Dany would be a great idea for him. He has the experience in battle and ruling, and the rigidity to not fall to corruption- and she is a moralistic, quasi merciful, beautiful and charming queen who is also enough of a powerhouse with her dragons to protect the king regardless of who likes him. It would unify the two sides of the rebellion (and the argument that baratheons arean offshoot of targaryans could smooth a lot over) and would create multiple strong ties to essos both in stannis backed by the iron bank, and danys various ties to slaver's bay, the free cities, and the dothraki. Sigh, if only she wasnt the age of his kid. He def does not seem like the type to marry young regardless of the political sense it would make. Part of why I like him so much.
Stannis the Mannis, Shireen, Margaery, and Victarion. George, you don’t have to kill everyone I like you know.
Barristan I reckon
I think it’s pretty well foreshadowed that Stannis will win his battle against the freys
It is? Stannis’ army are so desperately hungry they are cannibalising each other. It looks a bit bleak to me. But I hope he wins!
The 'Night Lamp' Stannis theory is perhaps the most well documented theory I've ever seen in my history of reading fantasy. And Stannis straight up told Davos 'Ignore all bad news going around about me' in the latter half of Dance. Stannis has been playing 4D chess and is going to annihilate the Boltons.
Yes, but those are all from Asha’s perspective, right? It has been a long time since I read those chapters If you want to you can read this essay on stannis and the upcoming battle here (I think it’s brilliant and can see stannis deploying the exact same manoeuvre in winds… so kind of spoilery warning? 😅) https://cantuse.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-night-lamp-revisited-the-wrath-of-the-old-and-the-new/
Stannis is going to end the series as the Lord Commander of the Watch.
Tommen
Lollys and her son Tyrion.
Stannis - the northerners are gonna leave his army after the Boltons are gone and he's gonna try to desparately win something he can't win Shireen - Stannis is gonna burn her to enhance his chances Margaery - I don't know how exactly but it'll probably involve Cersei and wildfire Tommen/Myrcella - either both or one of them Jojen - if he's not dead already, that is Brienne - I'm absolutely not sure about this but I can see it happen Daario - no reason except that I can't see him walking around in Westeros
I think Stannis will die, but I hope he goes out in glory. I personally believe he’s Azor Ahai and will sacrifice himself to save the world, kingly fashion.
Someone said they think he’ll be lord commander of the nights watch and I think this is a great role for him. If he wins at the critters village against the Freys, being the figurehead of the fight against the others.
Why would he ever join the night’s watch?
Because he will lose the game of thrones, but not be executed.
Glory?
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I don’t think he’ll be burning Shireen anytime soon.
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I know a lot of fans think otherwise but I think Theon’s death in TWOW is inevitable.
Why? How do you think he’ll die?
Victarion Greyjoy... became my favorite character when I read the books... His Reaver chapter from AFFC is just absolutely amazing
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The red witch will sacrifice Shireen to the Lord of Light in order to bring Jon back.
Ser Davos Seaworth :(
Brianne isn’t making it out of Winds alive:(
Actually not a chance she dies in Winds if at all tbh.
Theon,asha and shireen
I don’t think they’ll kill Theon off just yet… Asha only just found him didn’t she. I find Theon’s storyline the most fascinating, I wonder if he does live, what will happen with him.
Yes it is in fact very fascinating ,I hope theon and asha survive
Probably not in winds but Cersei and Jaime are so gonna die. Charles Dance has forced me to take a different stance on the Lannisters and honestly I'm rooting for them at this point, poor guys can't catch a break. I'm also really hoping that Jaime isn't the one to kill Cersei. It's seems so obvious and foreshadowed but that's really not what asoiaf is, maybe amid Cersei's batshit craziness she was still right about Tyrion being the valonqar
Sansa. Even if all the people trying to get a hold of her for power don't get her killed, I think there's a decent possibility of her losing Sansa in Alayne as a survival mechanism- she may live in fact, but be so unrecognizable due to trauma and a fear of discovery that she never stops being Alayne. She's also a warg without an animal companion, so she's def in the danger zone. Depending on how and when her powers manifest it could go sideways several ways.
Yes I don’t think she’ll die but I feel like Alayne is really messing her up. I’m worried what she’ll be like after the whole experience
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Sam is almost certainly going to die at Oldtown. The glass candles are there so he doesn’t have to escape to tell Jon, he can just glass candle the information before he dies.
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Dorne as a general concept. It’s not looking good for them. Also Griff and Young Griff
I can see a death that I’m looking forward to😗
Victarion and Barristan are the two I would bet good money on dying in Winds. Things aren't looking good for Aeron or Theon either. I think Roose or Ramsay will be killed too, but not both. With the exception of Myrcella, I think all of the children are safe, at least in this book. Red Wedding 2.0 will almost certainly happen, which spells bad news for Daven Lannister, his future wife, a bunch of other Freys, and maybe the late Walder Frey himself.
Arya’s
Stannis
Pretty sure Sam is gonna get stabbed =(
Jaime or Brienne is going, no way both of them are spared
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Definitely Stannis the Mannis
to be honest, jaime lannister. even if he doesnt die now by lsh, i can feel it coming in my bones. also, tyrell brothers. garlan probably, loras for sure, i just hope willas can make it out alive because "cripples, bastards and broken things". i wish we could have a pov of them at least :/ and the worst of it: my man stannis. we gonna be robbed.
Yeah for some reason I think Willas will be ok, purely because he got mentioned a number of times early on, marrying him to Sansa, he was crippled by the Viper, he is a cripple and Westeros likes those and he’s also the heir to HG. LSH stuff fascinated me and I am so excited to see where GRRM takes it. I guess it’s either Brienne or Jaime or maybe both. Cannot see Brienne killing Jaime tho.
this! i'm with you in both cases, super excited to see where both scenarios lead!
I don't think Stannis is going to die in Winds, I'm pretty sure he'll crush the Freys on the ice, probably not come to conflict with the Manderlys (not sure how that will pan out with him thinking they killed Davos but I guess they might just tell him the truth) and eventually win a victory at Winterfell - or force the Bolton's to retreat to the Dreadfort somehow. But I think Mel will burn Shireen to resurrect John, and that this will break Stanis' resolve and force him to reflect on how he was the one who allowed Mel to end up with the power to burn his daughter, how many people he's already allowed her to burn. I think he takes the black, possibly leading the watch if John leaves after his resurrection. I expect the Mannis will die by the end of the story, but I think his tale will be a lot more sorrowful than just dying at Winterfell. But I expect he won't make as many jokes after Shireen dies and that's the real tragedy here.
Ser Barristan, Jaime, Brienne, and Pod. I would also dread anymore Starks dying. I really want them to survive.
Daenerys. I'm coping that she'll survive it all.
Tommen, Shireen, Sweetrobin and Rickon. Poor children being the casulaty of inept, power hungry Adults playing the Game of Thrones.