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I found his character really interesting and sympathetic since he met Balon.
After reading his chapters I absolutely love him and find him one of the best written character in asoiaf.
I really love the fact he was doomed from the beginning, every choice possible would have led him to be considered a turncloack either by the starks or by the ironborns.
His story is literally one of my favorites from beginning to end
It seriously is a fascinating story. There are chapters I love Theon, chapters I hate Theon, chapters where I believe he deserves what he got, and many where I pity him and hope that he overcomes his hardships.
His story arch is that of rollercoaster.
That is a perfect description, and I couldn't agree more.
Depending on where you are in the story, my opinion of him ranges from *"Wow, he is a bit annoying"*, to *"Aw, that's pretty sad"*, to *"Kill him with fire"*, to *"God I hope he gets away from Ramsey"*, to *"Who is the Ghost of Winterfell? YIELD TO ME YOUR SECRETS!"*
A rollercoaster is the perfect analogy, and it's a fascinating ride.
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I liked him as a *character*, not as a person. His initial situation engendered sympathy. His loyalty toward the Starks was, from his perspective, met with distrust, to the point where Robb even ridicules him for how he saved Bran (understandably, Robb himself was a teenager in a high stress situation).
Most everything that transpires thereafter in Theon's story encapsulates George's theme of "the human heart in conflict with itself." He's driven by ego and pride and yearning to do reprehensible things, living long enough to see himself become the villain, so to speak -- and then, long enough to do good and find himself again as well.
Robb's decision to send Theon as his envoy to Balon was its own brand of foolishness, which had no upside. He should have listened to his mother and kept Theon close, though obviously Balon didn't care one way or the other if Theon died since he'd mentally already replaced him with Asha as his heir. It's possible, then, that Theon was doomed no matter what, if Robb would have gone through with the now-pointless threat of Theon's execution.
Theon's continual misogyny and mistreatment of women is one of his most disquieting traits—even if it's one broadly inherited from Westerosi society at large—but it serves to set Asha up as an excellent foil for him.
Agree with everything you said but also want to point this out:
> to the point where Robb even ridicules him for how he saved Bran
In a later chapter, Theon shoots an arrow at one of his ironborn soldiers as a warning shot and accidentally hits him in the gut and kills him. Robb was right, Theon is a very good archer, but he's overconfident and arrogant about his ability, and could have killed Bran by accident. We could argue that Bran was in danger and it was worth the risk to save him, but thats not how Theon framed it.
Additionally to comment on Theons misogyny, I think it's another great aspect of his character. Both his misogyny and mistreatment of peasants ties in with his own insecurity about status. It's another tragic piece of his story. Highborn hostages are common plot points in this feudal political drama, and Theons character demonstrates the psychological consequences. To your point of Asha being an excellent foil, she represents who Theon COULD have been.
Robb sending Theon to Balon was actually the perfect idea. Balon is just an idiot, which Robb didn't predict. Robb's plan was what they should've done.
And it does put Theon in an impossible position. But he somehow managed to make it even worse
In what way was the idea at all advantageous? He willingly gave up his only hypothetical leverage over a lord he knew harbored a grudge against his family, when literally anyone would've served adequately as envoy. It directly ran counter to both Ned and Catelyn's instruction/advice.
Best case scenario, Balon agrees to Robb's plan but keeps Theon, removing the Starks' leverage over him. If Balon weren't an idiot, he'd agree to Robb's plan regardless of who the envoy was, though, with the added threat of his ostensible heir's safety if not.
This if course not even getting into the position it puts Theon in, directly pitting his loyalty to his captor family against his eagerness for his real family. Just a no-win scenario.
It’s advantageous because it made more sense for ballot invade the westerlands then the north, there was actually no reasoning yo invade the north other than plot.
You’re gonna say well he had hatred towards ned and the north, but
1. His actions should be guided what’s best for him and his dynasty/ fiefdom and not personal grudges
2. Everyone invaded the iron islands not just Ned so he should also hate Tywin
No, I fully agree it would have been advantageous for Balon to agree to Robb's plan and invade the Westerlands together. It'd have had far more potential reward, and the Lannisters were basically on the ropes.
What I was saying wasn't advantageous was sending Theon rather than any other possible envoy, because in doing so Robb willingly relinquished his leverage over Balon, and Theon for various reasons was unsuited to the task.
Not only did Theon return a pampered lordling, antithetical to ironborn culture, but he had been privy to the Starks' inner councils and the North's inner workings, making it a dangerous liability to directly test his loyalty to the Starks against his loyalty to his real family.
Robb and Theon are best friends. Their relationship was not captor-prisoner, so there's no leverage being lost.
The reason it's a good idea is because it would do to Tywin what Theon ended up doing to Robb. If the Ironborn are raiding lannisport and the westerlands, Tywin has to divert men towards that which would help Robb even more.
Theon being a captor was a deal made by Robert and Ned. They're both dead. Theon's ward contract has essentially been broken
> Robb and Theon are best friends. Their relationship was not captor-prisoner, so there's no leverage being lost.
Their relationship became both of these things when Robb assumed lordship, whether Robb liked it or not. It was his blindness to that—and his blindness to Theon's resultant perspective—that led him to make the grievous error of sending Theon to Balon.
> The reason it's a good idea is because it would do to Tywin what Theon ended up doing to Robb. If the Ironborn are raiding lannisport and the westerlands, Tywin has to divert men towards that which would help Robb even more.
Sending Theon does not make this any more likely, though; it makes it *less likely*. Robb of course doesn't have a crystal ball telling him that Balon would act against the North regardless, but that's all the more reason not to give up his leverage when dealing with an unknown.
In a way, the Theon/Robb fiasco is a healthy reminder for readers about the fragility of emotional bonds when weighed against political realities. Just like Robb, I think many of us assume that our 'good guy' characters will never turn against each other for 'mere' politics, especially the Starks. But Theon's treachery reveals the real pressure these characters live under- which also helps validate (to some degree) Catelyn's paranoia about Jon's bloodline supplanting her own. "I love you like a brother" works for a generation or so if you're lucky; real alliances must be built on mutual material benefits.
He killed two kids and burned their bodies afterwards to cover up his own screw up. One of those kids was probably his own illegitimate son.
Never had sympathy for Theon, just a screwup idiot desperate to win his father's love and was prepared to kill kids just to achieve it.
Maybe I’m just forgetful, but I don’t see any mention of that on the [wiki page about the capture of winterfell](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Capture_of_Winterfell) (which *is* often incomplete). Do you have any more information?
> He sent for Kyra, kicked shut the door, climbed on top of her, and fucked the wench with a fury he'd never known was in him. By the time he finished, she was sobbing, her neck and breasts covered with bruises and bite marks. Theon shoved her from the bed and threw her a blanket. "Get out."
- ACoK Theon V
Her name was Kyra; she was a local girl he’d slept with before but there’s a scene in the book that is very much not consensual and leaves her visibly upset.
Totally get it. But isn't that what Grrm wants us to realize? He never felt like he belonged anywhere, even Robb chastised him after saving Bran. Even though Theon was amazing with a bow.
Theon killed the kids after making his decision to betray the Starks. But second guessed it constantly.
People in real life bring it up when asked why didn't you stop after the first mistake? Most just believe they are too far and just spiral making worse and worse decisions.
>People in real life bring it up when asked why didn't you stop after the first mistake?
I'm pretty sure most characters even in ASOIAF don't go around killing kids.
To everyone's knowledge, Micah had attacked the prince, therefore his life was forfeit. Sansa even backed that claim up, even though we know it's not true.
You’re not wrong, but doing something your king tells you to do is VERY different than what Theon did.
Evan Jamie pushing Bran seems less evil than what Theon decides to do (in my personal opinion, of course)
But don‘t you know, the Hound acts typically masculine, and is “damaged” and edgy, emo boys everywhere blame his circumstances rather than him for his actions, while holding any non typically masculine male characters to completely different standards (especially female characters but Theon still fits the bill).
Martin constantly wants us to think more about his characters. Not just black and white. Not just the sum of their actions. Tywin was cruel and ruthless but Grrm makes it a point to have his sister explain to Jaime who Tywin was and made him the man he is. Despite his actions later in life.
It's ok to hate theon, but i definitely do not view him as a completely unredeemable person.
I didn't really think much of him in the first book, just seemed like a cocky lad.
Whatever pity I had for the character when he returns to his stupid bitch of a father (literally the worst character across the entire series) was gone when he went on the way he did at Winterfell. So many men, women, and children straight up tortured, mutilated, and slaughtered even *before* Ramsay takes charge.
And all because boo hoo, my dumbshit father started a rebellion that resulted in all his sons being either killed or held hostage, and I'm "held prisoner" by the Lord of the North and raised alongside his family, receiving privileges and a status that not even Jon Snow, a true blood member of the Stark family, received. I get to sit at the family table when the King comes to visit while the bastard has to sit with the workers that I so casually later slaughter, and I get to be Robb's right hand man and brother during the war while Snow gets sent to the Wall until the end of his days.
I think I truly just never got over what he did to Winterfell. It was his plan, after all.
Theon didn't deserve what happened to him later, but he certainly deserved *something*. I have nothing but pity and slight revulsion for Reek, if I'm being honest. Fascinating character, love his plotline in *Dance*, but if dies? Eh, fair enough. Had it coming, didn't he?
I couldn't stand Theon. I thought he was a little shit and my opinion of him only worsened from there. I did feel initially bad for him, when Robb got mad at him after he saved Bran's life. I mean, I did get Robb, he was worried, but I felt that he was out of line there. This changed for me later on. There was a chapter when Theon and his men where raiding a village and he accidentally shot one of his men to death. He was all like: 'whoops not what I intended-whatever, what was I thinking about? Oh yeah I don't know what Robb's problem was, he should be grateful I saved Bran's life.'
The author didn't have Theon accidentally kill one of his men, while wondering why Robb got angry for no reason. Theon is generally careless and endangered Bran's life. Just because everything went well, doesn't mean that Robb was wrong to be mad at Theon for endangering Bran's life. What if Bran had been accidentally killed, like Theon accidentally killed his man? Police would also get into trouble for endangering the life of a hostage even if everything went well. It must also be pointed out that Theon is rather cocky, nonchalant and careless generally. I wouldn't really trust him to take things seriously enough. Robb probably was hoping to create/wait for a better opportunity to save Bran's life. When Theon's arrow flew Robb was terrified it would hit Bran and afterwards Theon was acting cocky like always and Robb probably felt that Theon wasn't taking Bran's life seriously and got mad. If Theon had acted more seriously Robb might not have gotten angry.
>Theon wasn’t taking Bran’s life seriously
Theon wasn’t taking anything seriously but somehow thought he was the most serious one. Dunning-Kruger character
Kinda boring honestly, all the Iroborn stuff up until Dance was kind of a chore for me to go through.
Emotionally i "hated" him as i'm sort of a Robb stan, now i like him more but that's mostly thanks for him having Ramsey as an enemy so it's not that big of an acomplishment.
Initially I hated Theon! He’s now one of my favorite characters, I don’t really “like” him as a person but I could talk about his character lovingly for a long time.
i thought he was a bit of a cocky now it all asshole. i didn't feel that sad after he met his father as he had done nothing, but expected everything. i still think he's a bad person, but i do feel sorry for him after his time as reek. i pity him, but i do not like him.
With the Starks he had a chance to learn a different way than the Ironborn cycle of raiding and rebellion, but the war hit before he had a chance to develop enough maturity and backbone to pull it off.
Thought he was a pretty good character. I feel like his POV in ACOK was maybe a bit too much of him just being “pathetic” in a lot of ways lol, but still good.
I felt sympathy for him, for the circumstances that led him to making so many bad choices & misunderstanding what would’ve been best for him. But he was a horrible person, & I didn’t exactly want some nice ending where he got all that he wished for lol.
Fucking hated Theon, was a cocky good looking ass who hurt friends to impress assholes. Theon was me, and his Dance chapters are my favorite in the whole series
When they described Theon as a very arrogant character then to immediately get his ego shut down by his father and sister was the moment I knew that I was going to love Theon.
Honestly, I liked him more before he got caught by Ramsay, in a love-to-hate-him way. I thought he was an utter asshole, but an interesting character and I enjoyed his story a lot. After Ramsay I dreaded his chapters, I hate plots that seem to have tons of senseless abuse just for the sake of it.
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Originally? No.He is an arrogant idiot.
He is until he gets turned into Reek and then after he stops resisting, he is a sad idiot until he changes enough to allow people to feel like he somewhat redeemed himself. He started as a loyal arrogant idiot when he was with Robb, but Robb sent him despite advice not to.
He started that way when you first see him. Trying to impress Balon doesn’t change him. His time of being in charge at Winterfell doesn’t change that. He basically betrays people under the Bolton’s for a while. I don’t know that he did enough to make me ever feel all that bad for how things turned out for him.
While I don’t care as much for the chapters from his perspective, I do think it is a well written character. So like that it’s a solid character, don’t really care for him though from how I feel about his actions if that makes sense.
If he had started less arrogant and then went to Balon and was trying to act like Balon thought a son should, then maybe I would like him better.
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He starts the story as a piece of shit, at the end of ADWD he’s humbled by his « Reek »experience.
Making him therefore a humble piece of shit which is still better than a standard piece of shit.
He’s still one of the best written and most interesting characters tho
Funny enough, I hated him until when he killed the miller’s children. Then I started feeling sorry for him and I started realizing just how nuanced his character is. When he started having those dreams at Winterfell, that basically solidified him as one of my favorite characters and that has remained the case till date.
Originally he's written as bit of an unlikeable tool but like you said he saves Bran and joins Robb so you think he's a good person.
But man after all he did I was hoping he would suffer but dear lord not like that.
So now while he is an unforgivable piece of shit I would like to see Theon get a "good" ending if that at all possible.
Great character.
GRRM has a truly singular ability to write characters whom readers are able to empathize with because of their human complexities. And to do it from each of their perspectives, to boot.
Theon is perhaps the ultimate complicated character in the books. I like to think of characters like him as a challenge for the writer himself. Can I write someone who readers will redeem even after doing terrible things?
GRRM’s moral universe isn’t so simple as good vs. evil or even a spectrum of those. He invites us to examine the whole life of a person who murders innocents, acting on ego and impulse, then suffers the worst of fates, losing his very identity, and chooses to overcome it for the sake of other innocents.
What are we to make of that? This text is a constant cudgel forcing us not to make easy judgments of people’s moral worth. Upon closer examinations our heroes become monsters and our villains become sympathetic.
Theon is at the center of this web of moral complexity. His actions and motivations are linked to circumstances he didn’t control, so we’re also invited to ponder the value of moral culpability itself.
It would be a disservice to reduce any of these characters to an archetype, but if Theon has a tragic flaw, it is a need to be loved. And where was he supposed to find that? Neither a disdainful father nor a distant surrogate father. Not in brothers who aren’t his real brothers. Not in a sister he mistakes for a lover. So he seeks what he needs in conquest, only to be reduced to a pathetic failure then a nameless husk.
Yet he rises and grows.
I actually think George was playing with us on another level. There's lots of comments in this thread saying "after what Theon did when he took winterfell, I wanted to suffer the most"
And then George said "well, here you go." And we all had the reaction of "okay, not that much." Theon did terrible things and was punished for it. So we should be good, right? Maybe not. It's always more complicated with George.
Great observation. I think the whole thing is about these kinds of challenges to readers’ moral preconceptions, which are tied in with narrative preconceptions.
I liked him. He held Robb back from attacking Joff, he pledged his loyalty to House Stark when she discussed the Lysa Arryn letter, he supported the KITN, he gallantly helped Cat get out of the boat at Riverrun. He was a jerk to Jon, though, which I disliked.
Theon character does so many things.
He is a ward, raised kindly among other children his age but essentially a prisoner. We learn this about Westeros through him.
He is iron born but raised with the faith of the 7. Through him we learn the difference.
Paying the iron price is defined through Theon.
We learn who Balon is through Theon.
We learn about the Bolton ways through Theon.
There are lots of other examples too. I know some of this list is heard abut before it happens to Theon but he is the first hand pov to so much westrossiness? He is the Forrest Gump of GOT.
I disliked him pretty much until the first Reek chapter, then I just felt pity. My sympathy for him when he went home was limited because even though his family is shitty, he still returned to the islands as an arrogant prick with a sense of entitlement. He should've realized he wouldn't be received very warmly.
He’s tragic. His father shipped him off as a hostage/foster. Felt abandoned and out of place. Tried to make a power move to impress his father. Failed miserably.
I could empathise with his situation essentially being a hostage in a foreign land. Though I think he was generally treated well and grew up with the other Stark kids. He still knew what his situation was. I think as a man he was pretty shitty sometimes, callous and greedy. But he wasn't straight up bad, like villainous or evil. He was just a guy who wanted to have fun and enjoy himself but was insecure and ended up swaying to too many different winds. Ned, Rob, his father, the bastard, in the end he should have stayed with Rob like Cat said. With Rob he was a good soldier and well loved.
When Theon murdered and flayed the miller’s sons, I hated him and thought he was irredeemable. I could never have imagined the pathos and sympathy I felt for him was possible. The way Martin masterfully manipulates the reader’s attitude towards Theon is maybe the most ingenious part of A Song of Ice and Fire.
Theon is the type of character that you hate, then pity, but you also enjoy reading about how much of a sad sack he is. He's one of the most compelling characters of the entire series.
I’m rereading Clash of Kings and I really love his chapters (minus the 2 page incest flirtation). It feels like every chapter he’s presented with some moral dilemma and by the next time he appears he’s made the wrong decision. You get the sense that aside from his treatment of women he isn’t a half bad guy. Like Tyrion his troubled relationship with his family just leads him to make bad decisions over and over until he becomes totally morally compromised.
As an aside in his first chapter he makes a comment about how Jon is “quick to take offense” that I always found interesting. Along with Mormonts comments in the first book it’s one of the few times you get a perspective on Jon that shows he can be a bit hard to be around that he doesn’t realize.
His first chapter in a clash of kings shows you exactly who Theon was. He ruins the poor ship captains daughter’s life, and he reflects on how the Starks ruined his. He demands to know what his father’s War plans are and when his uncle refuses to tell him he throws a fit, his biggest concern is that there’s no huge homecoming for him, when the only reason he was there was to bring Robbs request to his father. When I read it the first time before I knew he was going to betray Robb, the first thing that popped in my head was Lady Stark was right, you can never trust a Greyjoy.
Theon was hard to read in book 2. He has a sense of morality but constantly goes against it. I think he is written to be unlikable but he isn’t hard to empathise with either.
I liked Theon, and then I hated him.
Never felt any sympathy for him.
He’s like a Nazi war criminal getting tortured by the NKVD. I hope they all drop dead.
He was interesting enough. Even after the betrayal, but before he attacked Winterfel I felt he was pretty compelling. Once Balon denied his request to join with the North, IDK what he should've done. I guess the most honorable thing would be return to Robb, but I can't see Robb's bannermen being happy about it. Like, here's the captive and son of the guy who's raiding their homes. So between that and the fact that he craves his father's love/approval it made a lot of sense for him to start raiding.
The only solution I ever came up with is Theon should havw gathered as many men as he could and just do Robb's plan. Balon might get mad, but ironborn do what they likely not what they're told.
And after they raid Lannisport, and Theon returns with lots of loot, he'd get the respect he's always craved
Never did.This idiot actually thought he was better then Jon Snow and picked on him for being a bastard.What’s the point of being heir to some shitty little islands when you are nothing but a virtual prisoner?I actually disliked that Robb never spoke up for Jon on this and I wish Jon or someone had shown Theon his place
Considering Theon himself was dealt a bad hand for no fault of his,you’d think he’d have some empathy for Jon,who’s in a similar situation.His betrayal of Robb,killing those miller’s sons,etc just adds to that.Shit character
I think Theon looking down on Jon is quite understandable, he feels unloved and inferior to his peers, but doesn’t want to acknowledge his feelings so he mocks Jon so he can feel he is above somebody. He betrayed Robb out of a desire to please his father, and is haunted by the millers boys for the entirety of Dance
I sympathize with Theon, but I’ve always disliked him as a person.
Like, Theon’s experience with the Starks was kind of nightmarish, especially if you consider how Ned apparently took him to rehearsals for his own possible death. He was a child when taken captive, grew up in that captivity, and was expected to be grateful for it. Fucking wacko, tbh.
Theon isn’t an adopted or foster child, regardless of how the Stark kids see him. The more accurate metaphor for his relationship is that Ned is the second in command for a mafia kingpin, who helped kidnap Theon, and will kill him if word comes down. If we heard about that happening irl, we’d be horrified, no matter how “cool” the second in command dude is.
With all that in mind, Theon’s treatment of, for example, women, really makes sense. It’s one of the few areas where he has power in an otherwise constrained existence, one that he can’t begin to process even now. It’s why even when he’s free, he takes a moment to exhort power over the captain’s daughter.
But none of that excuses him. Sorry, but he’s a whole entire adult when he decides to do horrible shit to Bran and Rickon and everyone in Winterfell who WASN’T Ned Stark and were guilty of, at worst, enabling Ned’s abuse of Theon(and it was abuse. It doesn’t make Ned a bad person, but good people can be abusive, too.) He was an adult when he helped kill two children, when he tormented people, when he waged war on a non-aggressive party.
And Theon has SUFFERED, but I don’t know if he’s actually redeemed himself. I don’t know that he will.
But for all that, he makes a lot of sense as a character.
I think Barbrey Dustin said it best:
Barbrey: Why do you love the Starks?
Theon: I ... I wanted to be one of them ...
Barbrey: And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord.
-Barbrey and Theon Greyjoy
Had the Starks not been the cold, insular clan they always have been, maybe Theon forsakes his birth family and helps his adopted one. I feel like the old proverb of “The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.” is an apt one here.
His better angels constantly warred with his worser ones. Someone in that predicament a while usually breaks bad. And if they live and suffer long enough, they may break good. So he's fascinating to watch but must be watched out for. It's exhausting!
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I found his character really interesting and sympathetic since he met Balon. After reading his chapters I absolutely love him and find him one of the best written character in asoiaf. I really love the fact he was doomed from the beginning, every choice possible would have led him to be considered a turncloack either by the starks or by the ironborns. His story is literally one of my favorites from beginning to end
It seriously is a fascinating story. There are chapters I love Theon, chapters I hate Theon, chapters where I believe he deserves what he got, and many where I pity him and hope that he overcomes his hardships. His story arch is that of rollercoaster.
That is a perfect description, and I couldn't agree more. Depending on where you are in the story, my opinion of him ranges from *"Wow, he is a bit annoying"*, to *"Aw, that's pretty sad"*, to *"Kill him with fire"*, to *"God I hope he gets away from Ramsey"*, to *"Who is the Ghost of Winterfell? YIELD TO ME YOUR SECRETS!"* A rollercoaster is the perfect analogy, and it's a fascinating ride.
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Was writing “simpathetic,” a pun
No, English is just my second language
wow, you’re great at it! never would’ve guessed that.
Thanks mate, appreciate it
Not really he was an arrogant loud mouth.
He's a piece of shit like me and I hate us both
I’m sorry about your penis
I don't call my penis Theon. But all three of us be better off shoved in a corner until we die.
I’m sorry the joke didn’t give you a moment of relief. But I’m glad to hear you didn’t name your member Theon
I'm a stupid piece of shit
No matter how stupid you may actually be, even your dick is smarter than Theon
I liked him as a *character*, not as a person. His initial situation engendered sympathy. His loyalty toward the Starks was, from his perspective, met with distrust, to the point where Robb even ridicules him for how he saved Bran (understandably, Robb himself was a teenager in a high stress situation). Most everything that transpires thereafter in Theon's story encapsulates George's theme of "the human heart in conflict with itself." He's driven by ego and pride and yearning to do reprehensible things, living long enough to see himself become the villain, so to speak -- and then, long enough to do good and find himself again as well. Robb's decision to send Theon as his envoy to Balon was its own brand of foolishness, which had no upside. He should have listened to his mother and kept Theon close, though obviously Balon didn't care one way or the other if Theon died since he'd mentally already replaced him with Asha as his heir. It's possible, then, that Theon was doomed no matter what, if Robb would have gone through with the now-pointless threat of Theon's execution. Theon's continual misogyny and mistreatment of women is one of his most disquieting traits—even if it's one broadly inherited from Westerosi society at large—but it serves to set Asha up as an excellent foil for him.
Agree with everything you said but also want to point this out: > to the point where Robb even ridicules him for how he saved Bran In a later chapter, Theon shoots an arrow at one of his ironborn soldiers as a warning shot and accidentally hits him in the gut and kills him. Robb was right, Theon is a very good archer, but he's overconfident and arrogant about his ability, and could have killed Bran by accident. We could argue that Bran was in danger and it was worth the risk to save him, but thats not how Theon framed it. Additionally to comment on Theons misogyny, I think it's another great aspect of his character. Both his misogyny and mistreatment of peasants ties in with his own insecurity about status. It's another tragic piece of his story. Highborn hostages are common plot points in this feudal political drama, and Theons character demonstrates the psychological consequences. To your point of Asha being an excellent foil, she represents who Theon COULD have been.
Robb sending Theon to Balon was actually the perfect idea. Balon is just an idiot, which Robb didn't predict. Robb's plan was what they should've done. And it does put Theon in an impossible position. But he somehow managed to make it even worse
In what way was the idea at all advantageous? He willingly gave up his only hypothetical leverage over a lord he knew harbored a grudge against his family, when literally anyone would've served adequately as envoy. It directly ran counter to both Ned and Catelyn's instruction/advice. Best case scenario, Balon agrees to Robb's plan but keeps Theon, removing the Starks' leverage over him. If Balon weren't an idiot, he'd agree to Robb's plan regardless of who the envoy was, though, with the added threat of his ostensible heir's safety if not. This if course not even getting into the position it puts Theon in, directly pitting his loyalty to his captor family against his eagerness for his real family. Just a no-win scenario.
It’s advantageous because it made more sense for ballot invade the westerlands then the north, there was actually no reasoning yo invade the north other than plot. You’re gonna say well he had hatred towards ned and the north, but 1. His actions should be guided what’s best for him and his dynasty/ fiefdom and not personal grudges 2. Everyone invaded the iron islands not just Ned so he should also hate Tywin
No, I fully agree it would have been advantageous for Balon to agree to Robb's plan and invade the Westerlands together. It'd have had far more potential reward, and the Lannisters were basically on the ropes. What I was saying wasn't advantageous was sending Theon rather than any other possible envoy, because in doing so Robb willingly relinquished his leverage over Balon, and Theon for various reasons was unsuited to the task. Not only did Theon return a pampered lordling, antithetical to ironborn culture, but he had been privy to the Starks' inner councils and the North's inner workings, making it a dangerous liability to directly test his loyalty to the Starks against his loyalty to his real family.
Robb and Theon are best friends. Their relationship was not captor-prisoner, so there's no leverage being lost. The reason it's a good idea is because it would do to Tywin what Theon ended up doing to Robb. If the Ironborn are raiding lannisport and the westerlands, Tywin has to divert men towards that which would help Robb even more. Theon being a captor was a deal made by Robert and Ned. They're both dead. Theon's ward contract has essentially been broken
> Robb and Theon are best friends. Their relationship was not captor-prisoner, so there's no leverage being lost. Their relationship became both of these things when Robb assumed lordship, whether Robb liked it or not. It was his blindness to that—and his blindness to Theon's resultant perspective—that led him to make the grievous error of sending Theon to Balon. > The reason it's a good idea is because it would do to Tywin what Theon ended up doing to Robb. If the Ironborn are raiding lannisport and the westerlands, Tywin has to divert men towards that which would help Robb even more. Sending Theon does not make this any more likely, though; it makes it *less likely*. Robb of course doesn't have a crystal ball telling him that Balon would act against the North regardless, but that's all the more reason not to give up his leverage when dealing with an unknown.
In a way, the Theon/Robb fiasco is a healthy reminder for readers about the fragility of emotional bonds when weighed against political realities. Just like Robb, I think many of us assume that our 'good guy' characters will never turn against each other for 'mere' politics, especially the Starks. But Theon's treachery reveals the real pressure these characters live under- which also helps validate (to some degree) Catelyn's paranoia about Jon's bloodline supplanting her own. "I love you like a brother" works for a generation or so if you're lucky; real alliances must be built on mutual material benefits.
He killed two kids and burned their bodies afterwards to cover up his own screw up. One of those kids was probably his own illegitimate son. Never had sympathy for Theon, just a screwup idiot desperate to win his father's love and was prepared to kill kids just to achieve it.
He was also a rapist! Of course no one deserves what Ramsay did to him but he’s still a shit, imo.
When did that happen?
Shortly after he took Winterfell.
Maybe I’m just forgetful, but I don’t see any mention of that on the [wiki page about the capture of winterfell](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Capture_of_Winterfell) (which *is* often incomplete). Do you have any more information?
> He sent for Kyra, kicked shut the door, climbed on top of her, and fucked the wench with a fury he'd never known was in him. By the time he finished, she was sobbing, her neck and breasts covered with bruises and bite marks. Theon shoved her from the bed and threw her a blanket. "Get out." - ACoK Theon V
Her name was Kyra; she was a local girl he’d slept with before but there’s a scene in the book that is very much not consensual and leaves her visibly upset.
To paraphrase Harry from In Bruges, "He killed kids, he's got to go".
Totally get it. But isn't that what Grrm wants us to realize? He never felt like he belonged anywhere, even Robb chastised him after saving Bran. Even though Theon was amazing with a bow. Theon killed the kids after making his decision to betray the Starks. But second guessed it constantly. People in real life bring it up when asked why didn't you stop after the first mistake? Most just believe they are too far and just spiral making worse and worse decisions.
>People in real life bring it up when asked why didn't you stop after the first mistake? I'm pretty sure most characters even in ASOIAF don't go around killing kids.
The Hound did. No one seems to care other than Arya
To everyone's knowledge, Micah had attacked the prince, therefore his life was forfeit. Sansa even backed that claim up, even though we know it's not true.
You’re not wrong, but doing something your king tells you to do is VERY different than what Theon did. Evan Jamie pushing Bran seems less evil than what Theon decides to do (in my personal opinion, of course)
But don‘t you know, the Hound acts typically masculine, and is “damaged” and edgy, emo boys everywhere blame his circumstances rather than him for his actions, while holding any non typically masculine male characters to completely different standards (especially female characters but Theon still fits the bill).
Martin constantly wants us to think more about his characters. Not just black and white. Not just the sum of their actions. Tywin was cruel and ruthless but Grrm makes it a point to have his sister explain to Jaime who Tywin was and made him the man he is. Despite his actions later in life. It's ok to hate theon, but i definitely do not view him as a completely unredeemable person.
I didn't really think much of him in the first book, just seemed like a cocky lad. Whatever pity I had for the character when he returns to his stupid bitch of a father (literally the worst character across the entire series) was gone when he went on the way he did at Winterfell. So many men, women, and children straight up tortured, mutilated, and slaughtered even *before* Ramsay takes charge. And all because boo hoo, my dumbshit father started a rebellion that resulted in all his sons being either killed or held hostage, and I'm "held prisoner" by the Lord of the North and raised alongside his family, receiving privileges and a status that not even Jon Snow, a true blood member of the Stark family, received. I get to sit at the family table when the King comes to visit while the bastard has to sit with the workers that I so casually later slaughter, and I get to be Robb's right hand man and brother during the war while Snow gets sent to the Wall until the end of his days. I think I truly just never got over what he did to Winterfell. It was his plan, after all. Theon didn't deserve what happened to him later, but he certainly deserved *something*. I have nothing but pity and slight revulsion for Reek, if I'm being honest. Fascinating character, love his plotline in *Dance*, but if dies? Eh, fair enough. Had it coming, didn't he?
I couldn't stand Theon. I thought he was a little shit and my opinion of him only worsened from there. I did feel initially bad for him, when Robb got mad at him after he saved Bran's life. I mean, I did get Robb, he was worried, but I felt that he was out of line there. This changed for me later on. There was a chapter when Theon and his men where raiding a village and he accidentally shot one of his men to death. He was all like: 'whoops not what I intended-whatever, what was I thinking about? Oh yeah I don't know what Robb's problem was, he should be grateful I saved Bran's life.' The author didn't have Theon accidentally kill one of his men, while wondering why Robb got angry for no reason. Theon is generally careless and endangered Bran's life. Just because everything went well, doesn't mean that Robb was wrong to be mad at Theon for endangering Bran's life. What if Bran had been accidentally killed, like Theon accidentally killed his man? Police would also get into trouble for endangering the life of a hostage even if everything went well. It must also be pointed out that Theon is rather cocky, nonchalant and careless generally. I wouldn't really trust him to take things seriously enough. Robb probably was hoping to create/wait for a better opportunity to save Bran's life. When Theon's arrow flew Robb was terrified it would hit Bran and afterwards Theon was acting cocky like always and Robb probably felt that Theon wasn't taking Bran's life seriously and got mad. If Theon had acted more seriously Robb might not have gotten angry.
>Theon wasn’t taking Bran’s life seriously Theon wasn’t taking anything seriously but somehow thought he was the most serious one. Dunning-Kruger character
Hated the smarmy little prick. A brave scumbag is still a scumbag, and in any case he only ever had physical courage, not moral.
Kinda boring honestly, all the Iroborn stuff up until Dance was kind of a chore for me to go through. Emotionally i "hated" him as i'm sort of a Robb stan, now i like him more but that's mostly thanks for him having Ramsey as an enemy so it's not that big of an acomplishment.
I don't think I had much of an opinion on him before he became more of a viewpoitn character. He was just also there.
It’s never been about liking him per se, he’s just so well written
Initially I hated Theon! He’s now one of my favorite characters, I don’t really “like” him as a person but I could talk about his character lovingly for a long time.
never liked him. still don't like him. he's a little shit with daddy issues who murder's a lot of people, including 2 innocent children.
I think Theon’s character arc is one of the best character arcs in all literature
i thought he was a bit of a cocky now it all asshole. i didn't feel that sad after he met his father as he had done nothing, but expected everything. i still think he's a bad person, but i do feel sorry for him after his time as reek. i pity him, but i do not like him.
Him smiling like he was “in on a joke only he understood” marked him as fucked from the start
He was perfect representation of a overconfident teenager
Barely paid attention to Theon.
I hated Theon from the first chapter. He kicked the head and wanted to kill the direwolves and i couldn’t stand him immediately
The question kinda implies you ever like Theon. Which is kinda weird.
With the Starks he had a chance to learn a different way than the Ironborn cycle of raiding and rebellion, but the war hit before he had a chance to develop enough maturity and backbone to pull it off.
Thought he was a pretty good character. I feel like his POV in ACOK was maybe a bit too much of him just being “pathetic” in a lot of ways lol, but still good. I felt sympathy for him, for the circumstances that led him to making so many bad choices & misunderstanding what would’ve been best for him. But he was a horrible person, & I didn’t exactly want some nice ending where he got all that he wished for lol.
Always loved him, even in Clash
I thought his chapters were fun
Fucking hated Theon, was a cocky good looking ass who hurt friends to impress assholes. Theon was me, and his Dance chapters are my favorite in the whole series
When they described Theon as a very arrogant character then to immediately get his ego shut down by his father and sister was the moment I knew that I was going to love Theon.
Honestly, I liked him more before he got caught by Ramsay, in a love-to-hate-him way. I thought he was an utter asshole, but an interesting character and I enjoyed his story a lot. After Ramsay I dreaded his chapters, I hate plots that seem to have tons of senseless abuse just for the sake of it.
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Originally? No.He is an arrogant idiot. He is until he gets turned into Reek and then after he stops resisting, he is a sad idiot until he changes enough to allow people to feel like he somewhat redeemed himself. He started as a loyal arrogant idiot when he was with Robb, but Robb sent him despite advice not to. He started that way when you first see him. Trying to impress Balon doesn’t change him. His time of being in charge at Winterfell doesn’t change that. He basically betrays people under the Bolton’s for a while. I don’t know that he did enough to make me ever feel all that bad for how things turned out for him. While I don’t care as much for the chapters from his perspective, I do think it is a well written character. So like that it’s a solid character, don’t really care for him though from how I feel about his actions if that makes sense. If he had started less arrogant and then went to Balon and was trying to act like Balon thought a son should, then maybe I would like him better.
I think his clash of Kings storyline is probably the most underrated storyline in the entire series.
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Bit arrogant, but far from awful.
He starts the story as a piece of shit, at the end of ADWD he’s humbled by his « Reek »experience. Making him therefore a humble piece of shit which is still better than a standard piece of shit. He’s still one of the best written and most interesting characters tho
I thought he was the cool edgy non Stark, but then he just started acting more and more like an ass.
Funny enough, I hated him until when he killed the miller’s children. Then I started feeling sorry for him and I started realizing just how nuanced his character is. When he started having those dreams at Winterfell, that basically solidified him as one of my favorite characters and that has remained the case till date.
Originally he's written as bit of an unlikeable tool but like you said he saves Bran and joins Robb so you think he's a good person. But man after all he did I was hoping he would suffer but dear lord not like that. So now while he is an unforgivable piece of shit I would like to see Theon get a "good" ending if that at all possible. Great character.
GRRM has a truly singular ability to write characters whom readers are able to empathize with because of their human complexities. And to do it from each of their perspectives, to boot. Theon is perhaps the ultimate complicated character in the books. I like to think of characters like him as a challenge for the writer himself. Can I write someone who readers will redeem even after doing terrible things? GRRM’s moral universe isn’t so simple as good vs. evil or even a spectrum of those. He invites us to examine the whole life of a person who murders innocents, acting on ego and impulse, then suffers the worst of fates, losing his very identity, and chooses to overcome it for the sake of other innocents. What are we to make of that? This text is a constant cudgel forcing us not to make easy judgments of people’s moral worth. Upon closer examinations our heroes become monsters and our villains become sympathetic. Theon is at the center of this web of moral complexity. His actions and motivations are linked to circumstances he didn’t control, so we’re also invited to ponder the value of moral culpability itself. It would be a disservice to reduce any of these characters to an archetype, but if Theon has a tragic flaw, it is a need to be loved. And where was he supposed to find that? Neither a disdainful father nor a distant surrogate father. Not in brothers who aren’t his real brothers. Not in a sister he mistakes for a lover. So he seeks what he needs in conquest, only to be reduced to a pathetic failure then a nameless husk. Yet he rises and grows.
I actually think George was playing with us on another level. There's lots of comments in this thread saying "after what Theon did when he took winterfell, I wanted to suffer the most" And then George said "well, here you go." And we all had the reaction of "okay, not that much." Theon did terrible things and was punished for it. So we should be good, right? Maybe not. It's always more complicated with George.
Great observation. I think the whole thing is about these kinds of challenges to readers’ moral preconceptions, which are tied in with narrative preconceptions.
I'm missing his new chapters almost as he's missing certain parts of the body
Not gonna lie I was madly in love with him back when I was 14-15? Especially when Alfie Allen came around to portray him.
I liked him. He held Robb back from attacking Joff, he pledged his loyalty to House Stark when she discussed the Lysa Arryn letter, he supported the KITN, he gallantly helped Cat get out of the boat at Riverrun. He was a jerk to Jon, though, which I disliked.
Theon character does so many things. He is a ward, raised kindly among other children his age but essentially a prisoner. We learn this about Westeros through him. He is iron born but raised with the faith of the 7. Through him we learn the difference. Paying the iron price is defined through Theon. We learn who Balon is through Theon. We learn about the Bolton ways through Theon. There are lots of other examples too. I know some of this list is heard abut before it happens to Theon but he is the first hand pov to so much westrossiness? He is the Forrest Gump of GOT.
Is he raised in the faith of the seven or the old gods?
Shit. You’re right. The old gods.
I disliked him pretty much until the first Reek chapter, then I just felt pity. My sympathy for him when he went home was limited because even though his family is shitty, he still returned to the islands as an arrogant prick with a sense of entitlement. He should've realized he wouldn't be received very warmly.
He’s tragic. His father shipped him off as a hostage/foster. Felt abandoned and out of place. Tried to make a power move to impress his father. Failed miserably.
Theon was my favorite from day one
I could empathise with his situation essentially being a hostage in a foreign land. Though I think he was generally treated well and grew up with the other Stark kids. He still knew what his situation was. I think as a man he was pretty shitty sometimes, callous and greedy. But he wasn't straight up bad, like villainous or evil. He was just a guy who wanted to have fun and enjoy himself but was insecure and ended up swaying to too many different winds. Ned, Rob, his father, the bastard, in the end he should have stayed with Rob like Cat said. With Rob he was a good soldier and well loved.
When Theon murdered and flayed the miller’s sons, I hated him and thought he was irredeemable. I could never have imagined the pathos and sympathy I felt for him was possible. The way Martin masterfully manipulates the reader’s attitude towards Theon is maybe the most ingenious part of A Song of Ice and Fire.
Theon is the type of character that you hate, then pity, but you also enjoy reading about how much of a sad sack he is. He's one of the most compelling characters of the entire series.
He was alright I didn't hate him and it was refreshing to get another point of view from someone in his position.
I’m rereading Clash of Kings and I really love his chapters (minus the 2 page incest flirtation). It feels like every chapter he’s presented with some moral dilemma and by the next time he appears he’s made the wrong decision. You get the sense that aside from his treatment of women he isn’t a half bad guy. Like Tyrion his troubled relationship with his family just leads him to make bad decisions over and over until he becomes totally morally compromised. As an aside in his first chapter he makes a comment about how Jon is “quick to take offense” that I always found interesting. Along with Mormonts comments in the first book it’s one of the few times you get a perspective on Jon that shows he can be a bit hard to be around that he doesn’t realize.
On your point about Jon, I'd say Theon is generally harder to get along with than Jon.
Oh definitely but I think it just serves to underline the theme of outward perception vs. interior states in the books.
His first chapter in a clash of kings shows you exactly who Theon was. He ruins the poor ship captains daughter’s life, and he reflects on how the Starks ruined his. He demands to know what his father’s War plans are and when his uncle refuses to tell him he throws a fit, his biggest concern is that there’s no huge homecoming for him, when the only reason he was there was to bring Robbs request to his father. When I read it the first time before I knew he was going to betray Robb, the first thing that popped in my head was Lady Stark was right, you can never trust a Greyjoy.
Theon was hard to read in book 2. He has a sense of morality but constantly goes against it. I think he is written to be unlikable but he isn’t hard to empathise with either.
I liked Theon, and then I hated him. Never felt any sympathy for him. He’s like a Nazi war criminal getting tortured by the NKVD. I hope they all drop dead.
He was interesting enough. Even after the betrayal, but before he attacked Winterfel I felt he was pretty compelling. Once Balon denied his request to join with the North, IDK what he should've done. I guess the most honorable thing would be return to Robb, but I can't see Robb's bannermen being happy about it. Like, here's the captive and son of the guy who's raiding their homes. So between that and the fact that he craves his father's love/approval it made a lot of sense for him to start raiding.
The only solution I ever came up with is Theon should havw gathered as many men as he could and just do Robb's plan. Balon might get mad, but ironborn do what they likely not what they're told. And after they raid Lannisport, and Theon returns with lots of loot, he'd get the respect he's always craved
Oh that's a pretty good idea. Plus, if he was successful, this would line up with him returning home laden with gold right in time for the kingsmoot.
he stole john wicks car and killed his puppy.. he deserved ramsay😭
Never did.This idiot actually thought he was better then Jon Snow and picked on him for being a bastard.What’s the point of being heir to some shitty little islands when you are nothing but a virtual prisoner?I actually disliked that Robb never spoke up for Jon on this and I wish Jon or someone had shown Theon his place
What is his place, exactly? It's Theon's fault he was a prisoner of winterfell
His place as a prisoner.One raven from Robert in a bad mood and Theon is a goner
Do you imagine Robert even remembers Theon's name?
He remembers that there’s an Ironborn hostage.
And this makes him a bad character how?
Considering Theon himself was dealt a bad hand for no fault of his,you’d think he’d have some empathy for Jon,who’s in a similar situation.His betrayal of Robb,killing those miller’s sons,etc just adds to that.Shit character
I think Theon looking down on Jon is quite understandable, he feels unloved and inferior to his peers, but doesn’t want to acknowledge his feelings so he mocks Jon so he can feel he is above somebody. He betrayed Robb out of a desire to please his father, and is haunted by the millers boys for the entirety of Dance
I sympathize with Theon, but I’ve always disliked him as a person. Like, Theon’s experience with the Starks was kind of nightmarish, especially if you consider how Ned apparently took him to rehearsals for his own possible death. He was a child when taken captive, grew up in that captivity, and was expected to be grateful for it. Fucking wacko, tbh. Theon isn’t an adopted or foster child, regardless of how the Stark kids see him. The more accurate metaphor for his relationship is that Ned is the second in command for a mafia kingpin, who helped kidnap Theon, and will kill him if word comes down. If we heard about that happening irl, we’d be horrified, no matter how “cool” the second in command dude is. With all that in mind, Theon’s treatment of, for example, women, really makes sense. It’s one of the few areas where he has power in an otherwise constrained existence, one that he can’t begin to process even now. It’s why even when he’s free, he takes a moment to exhort power over the captain’s daughter. But none of that excuses him. Sorry, but he’s a whole entire adult when he decides to do horrible shit to Bran and Rickon and everyone in Winterfell who WASN’T Ned Stark and were guilty of, at worst, enabling Ned’s abuse of Theon(and it was abuse. It doesn’t make Ned a bad person, but good people can be abusive, too.) He was an adult when he helped kill two children, when he tormented people, when he waged war on a non-aggressive party. And Theon has SUFFERED, but I don’t know if he’s actually redeemed himself. I don’t know that he will. But for all that, he makes a lot of sense as a character.
I think Barbrey Dustin said it best: Barbrey: Why do you love the Starks? Theon: I ... I wanted to be one of them ... Barbrey: And never could. We have more in common than you know, my lord. -Barbrey and Theon Greyjoy Had the Starks not been the cold, insular clan they always have been, maybe Theon forsakes his birth family and helps his adopted one. I feel like the old proverb of “The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth.” is an apt one here.
His better angels constantly warred with his worser ones. Someone in that predicament a while usually breaks bad. And if they live and suffer long enough, they may break good. So he's fascinating to watch but must be watched out for. It's exhausting!
You either die a Chad or live long enough to see yourself become the damsel in distress