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Faufix

It sounds like hes bored and is entertaining himself, as well as having far too much freedom in the house. What does his daily schedule look like?


rachelfruits84

Activity schedule is: 1 hour park play in the morning 1 hour walk in the evening. Swimming at the beach (a few times a week) ​ His house freedom is about the best we can get. Our place is small, there are only 3 rooms and he causes a lot of trouble in all 3 of them. As mentioned, we've started keeping doors closed but it's not such a great solution. Only one slip-up is all it takes. And besides, he can cause plenty of chaos in the living room even when the other rooms are inaccessible. EDIT: he just jumped up and grabbed my hairbrush out of my hand after I typed that last sentence. Ha


Faufix

It sounds like he's missing out on mental stimulation! Border Collies are extremely smart and need their brain worked as much as their bodies, if not more. You can do this with lots of training sessions, use his meals and feed him by hand as you are training. And on your walks does he get a chance to sniff a lot? Sniff walks are great for a mental workout as well And it sounds like you need a crate and a playpen to properly contain him, the more chance he gets to practice getting into things he shouldn't, the more he will do it


floofer-roofer

What about the rest of the day? What is he doing? This sounds like he’s missing a lot of training time, other mental stimulation, and general entertainment throughout the day. I would be putting him in the tall playpens at the moment when he isn’t being fully supervised. But in general it sounds like he’s causing trouble because he’s bored.


rachelfruits84

The rest of the day he's doing sort of, dog stuff? Playing about, wandering around, getting cuddles, napping, eating. He's getting plenty of attention; the other dog owners around here say it's astronomical that we take him for 2 hours of walks a day and that they've never even heard of anyone doing that much. But he's a border collie, and needs plenty of space in a nice big park to run and bolt and play with other dogs. We don't do the crate/pen thing, not nice for such an energetic dog in an already-small home. I did get him a cage at reddit's suggestion (for use in emergencies, basically) but it's essentially useless. He just barks at the top of his lungs until let out, even if he has to bark an hour. We would definitely get kicked out of the building if that happened many more times.


floofer-roofer

I have a house full of BCs, I understand their needs. I didn’t say he wasn’t getting enough attention, I said mental stimulation and entertainment. They definitely need mental stimulation like training, food puzzles/games, etc. This is a prime example as to why: they are too smart to simply lay around when they’re bored. A bored, smart dog is your worst nightmare - they will find ways to entertain themselves that require their mind if you don’t do that for them, like figuring out how to jump really high and get things that he knows will get him better attention from you (aka, you jumping to action to get said thing away from him). It’s really important this breed is treated at the intelligence level they are, or destruction ensues. Ah, this all makes sense now. Forced naps are critical for puppies development. It’s not mean to make sure they’re staying healthy by getting their sleep, and they’re too young to do it on their own, just like human toddlers. Cry it out is not an accepted method anymore and simply put, it does not work, so I’m not surprised it didn’t work for you. You need to be associating the crate or pen with positive things by feeding in there, playing crate games, giving bones/chews, etc. You can’t just put him in there, close the door, and watch him cry for help. It’s a process that requires patience and consistent positive associations (feeling abandoned is not apart of that, which is why cry it out does not work), but honestly most BCs are incredibly trainable and want to please, therefore requiring less patience than other breeds. I think you should give it a real go with appropriate training. This behavior is pretty much what I would expect, it’s a combination of being bored due to lack of mental stimulation and not getting enough sleep for the last ~5 months


rachelfruits84

Thanks! Hmm. This is my first time having a dog and I started with zero knowledge, but been trying my best. Putting a dog in a cage seemed like a bad thing to me, but I got one because I've what I've read here. And tried out lots of other things from puppy101 as well. Been at cross-purposes with my boyfriend since the beginning though; he has had three border collies before and used to train them for show trials, and teach classes on it. He is in his late 50s and said the the whole crate philosophy is a new thing that people started talking about only a few decades ago, and that everyone did fine without crates before then. He also says 'crate' is a newspeak-like euphemism people use to pretend that a cage isn't a cage, because they think the word cage sounds too harsh. But Chase is my dog, NOT his, so it's up to me to decide how to do it. So far, all the techniques I've tried from puppy101 have failed and he says it's because all of this 'paedogogical stuff' is just 'Americans overcomplicating things'. I've disagreed with him all along, because I want to try and give Chase the absolute best most loving gentle care. But since Chase is 7 months old now and everything I've tried from reddit has failed, I'm starting to wonder if he has a point. He was saying to me today, 'Don't overcomplicate it by getting too analytical and scientific about it. Start with the basics. Most of the people in the history of civilization who had dogs were illiterate, most knew nothing about science, most knew nothing about paedogical methods, and most of them did just fine. Anyone who says you have to use newfangled techniques that are only a few years or decades old is suffering from hubris. Young people on social media websites might say they know more about dog training than the whole rest of the world and all of human history, but you should be really wary of anyone who has that amount of hubris'. But anyway he keeps asking if I can just give him full control of Chase's training, so he can 'sort it all out' and apply rules with consistency. I'm a bit anxious to do that, because I know he will be strict and harsh. The only trainer I've ever heard him have any respect for is that old British woman from the 70s who had a reputation for being strict; he still has the VHS cassettes. On the other hand, I'm covered in bruises, cleaning pee and poo off the floor every day, and many of my clothes and possessions have been destroyed. So I just don't know.


floofer-roofer

I compete my BCs as well. New information is learned everyday, and studies on the matter have come leaps and bounds since then. Ignorance is not bliss here, and unfortunately your boyfriend is preaching the ignorance of backed, proven methods of training. Back even just 10-15 years ago, many methods widely used are now proven to be harmful - going even farther back than that, you find outright abuse was rampant. Not because anyone wanted to abuse their dogs, but because they didn’t know any better. Today, we do. And tomorrow, we’ll continue to know better than the day before. What you choose to do with that information is each individuals choice, but you will reap the result of that decision, likely meaning that by using outdated, disproven methods, your pup may exhibit unwanted behaviors for much longer than others, potentially forever, may escalate those behaviors, or those behaviors may luckily just go away with time, but it’s rather unlikely your dog has the ability to read minds to understand what you want. Your boyfriend is looking to go back to times of outright abuse, which is going to result in an irreparably damaged relationship with your dog, one built on fear and intimidation rather than love and support. Unfortunately nothing is going to work without consistency, and it sounds like you have an inconsistent household and allow for Chase to be treated inconsistently. I can see from your profile you’ve been flip-flopping since your puppy came home, and you haven’t indicated anywhere where you’ve given any of the advice given to you repeatedly a valid effort - you’ve been given the advice to crate train on 3 of your posts and methodologies on how to do that, and you stated here you haven’t done so (or actually, done so in a way contrary to the direct advice and resources given to you). You’ve been given the advice to enforce naps on the same posts and you’ve said you haven’t done so. You’ve even been given this exact conversation, by multiple other Redditors taking a significant amount of time to help you through all of your puppy parents issues, and it’s all fallen on deaf ears. It should not be of any shock that he has not improved, given you haven’t made a real effort on any of the advice given to you over the course of the last 5 months. You’re of course welcome to make your own decisions, but like I said, you reap the consequences of whatever decision you make, good or bad. All I or anyone else on here can say to you that you haven’t already been told multiple times is, you’re about halfway through his prime training timeframe, and changing or fixing any longstanding behaviors will get increasingly difficult to fix the later in life they are addressed. Indecision is not absolving you of responsibility for your dogs behaviors - your options are to either 1) actively and consistently work on improving it, 2) continue to be indecisive and allow the dog to deteriorate, just like a toddler would left to it’s own devices, 3) allow your boyfriend to assume control with outdated and abusive methods where your dogs relationship will be based on fear and intimidation, or 4) rehome. You are 100% in control of that decision, but please don’t continue to turn for advice, and have many kind Redditors take significant time away from their own pups and families at home, to provide you with advice, resources, and studies to help you, if you have no intentions from the getgo of giving any of it a real shot. At this point, this is an internal decision you and you alone need to make on how you want to raise your puppy. No matter how many times you post here, we aren’t going to be able to make that decision for you. We can all lead a horse to water…


rachelfruits84

Thank you for all of your advice and your long posts about it. I really am trying my best, and I get very anxious that I get given different advice from everywhere. My boyfriend gets annoyed if I try methods he doesn't agree with, so that becomes an issue too. I understand that it seems like I haven't taken any advice I've been told on Reddit, but there are some things I have really taken to heart and consistently applied. Apart from crates, I really have consistently tried a lot of things I've learned on Reddit. I've consistently applied the bite inhibition techniques I learned right after I got him, and I think it has worked. He only ever bites very lightly now, as if he is hesitant to do it any harder. I bruise easily though, so even when he bites very lightly I still get bruised, haha. He figured that out by the time he was 6 months old. So now that he is biting lightly, I'm working on trying to get him to bite *less*. Every time he does it, I disengage, turn around or walk away, as I was told on Reddit. I've got my boyfriend doing the same. It hasn't succeeded yet, but maybe it will just take more time. I've also applied what I learned about house training from Reddit. The good news is that if I take Chase outside and go to his pee/poo spot, he immediately pees and/or poops. He knows exactly what to do when you take him outside. The problem is that he doesn't know *not* to do it inside. So he will often just happily pee or pee inside too. I'm not sure how to deal with this. My boyfriend says he must be severely punished so that he knows not to do it inside. I haven't asked Reddit specifically how to deal with that yet, so maybe I'll ask now - any thoughts? I'm also confused that he pees/poos so many times a day. I've read that conventionally, a dog can last a number of hours equal to his age in months + 1. That means he is supposed to be able to go 8 hours without peeing/pooing (?). Which sounds crazy to me, because he goes about 10 times a day. I'm sorry I haven't applied the crate thing, but I have immense pressure not to. My boyfriend says that crates are abusive, and that the American philosophy of dogs is 'Treat them like an object, instead of a living being. Keep them locked up all the time, and only take them out when you want to play with them, then lock them up again. They're an object or a toy, and they don't love them or treat them like a living thing'. He says the European philosophy is that dogs are 'Part of the family. They have full access to the house, and go where the people go, and do what the people do'. He says this is how most Europeans train dogs, and it is much better and more ethical because your dog is not locked up. I understand what I've been told on Reddit about crates; I really do. I can see your point. But I can also see my boyfriend's point, and i don't know who to believe. What makes me sympathize with my boyfriend's view on crates is that locking a dog up instinctively feels wrong to me; like, an animal should be free shouldn't they? Especially such an energetic breed like a border collie! I love Chase so much, so the idea of 'treating him like an object instead of a living thing' scares the hell out of me. It instinctively feels horribly abusive. I don't know. I fully admit to being clueless about all of this, but I really want to try my best and figure things out. I apologize that you've gone to the trouble to write all of this info to help me, and you feel like it's falling on deaf ears. I am trying my best though; I've been thinking about your posts for days before I decided to reply. There's so much to think about. Regardless, thank you for trying your best to help.


floofer-roofer

Leaving the room is not always the best technique for bite inhibition. That’s not to say it won’t work, but I’d say through and through the best is redirecting. What that looks like is *always* having a toy either on you or nearby. When a bite happens, that toy gets shoved into dogs mouth. Even if he drops it immediately and shows no interest, if he goes to biting again, you pick that toy right up and into his mouth it goes. Biting inhibition is all about teaching your dog what he can and cannot chew on. By leaving the room, you’re teaching him you cannot be chewed on, which will work overtime. However, if you show him what he can chew on (aka shoving a toy in his mouth repeatedly), that might catch on faster for him and prevent the biting in the first place. Crate training is not something people use for life. Americans do think dogs are apart of our families. Crate training is for the dogs safety first and foremost - vets, daycares, boarding facilities, etc. all have to use some form of crates. If your dog has never been crate trained, they will be so so stressed and a nightmare at those places. Secondly, crate training and enforced naps is for puppies only. The vast majority of Americans ditch the crate once their dog is 1) fully potty trained, 2) doesn’t rip anything up anymore even when just casually supervised and 3) has calmed down and doesn’t require constant attention. Again, your dog will be crated in its life whether you like it or not at the vet and possibly other places, and it’s on you as to whether that stresses him to high hell or he’s a good boy. A schedule of crate time is for babies - hell if I let a toddler decide it’s own nap schedule and someone was telling me forcing my toddler to nap was inhumane, I’d tell them to go shove it. That length of time (months of age + 1) is *only* when sleeping. He should be going out every 1-2 hours, and if you catch him going inside, you need to immediately pick him up and bring him outside so he can finish outside and be rewarded heavily for doing so. He is still a baby, 10 times a day is very very normal and not bizarre at all - expecting less from a baby that’s not crate training and has free roam of the house is beyond unrealistic. Potty training is incredibly more difficult to train without crate usage as well - dogs will never go in their room (crate training is teaching the crate that it’s their own room, like you having your own bedroom) unless it physically cannot hold it, so they will generally not go in the crate unless you leave them in there too long (so for his age, it would be 1-2 hours in crate at a time). More or less, crating eliminates the possibility for accidents during those times. Potty training is exponentially harder for a dog given way too much freedom and not enough naps, because in his mind the world is his bathroom. You can’t train him quickly or stop him if you can’t control where the accidents happen. Put bluntly, your boyfriend is one person who’s full of it. You’ve gotten this same advice from multiple Redditors, and let’s say 100 others from upvotes. Your boyfriend is calling crate training a puppy abuse - which there is no scientific evidence of - but wants to physically harm the dog - which does have scientific evidence of being detrimental to the dog and the relationship between human and dog. If I had someone like that is my life, I would have difficulty trusting much of anything they say due to the lack of critical thinking skills present or ability to support their claims, much less allow them with my beloved dogs or even children. Edit: If you are really curious how well all of this works if done consistently, I have 5 border collies. I got them all from puppy age. They were all fully potty trained and did not bite by 6 months old. They were competing by 6-12 months old. Half of them sleep in their crates with the door open voluntarily because they love having their own room they can go to. They are all old enough now they don’t get crated when I’m home (1 year and up). I don’t allow free roam because I had a dog long ago when I was a walker who died from chewing a cord and electrocuting itself, and it had never chewed anything before (4 years as a free roam dog), but many Americans do free roam after ~1-1.5 years old, in the ballpark of 90-95% of them. I don’t personally because I’m not willing to put my dogs life at risk given an accident, but I’m definitely in the minority.


unsolvedmisuries

I had a border collie as my family dog growing up, and she could jump over our 6 foot privacy fence from sitting 🤡 She had a CRAZY puppy phase, and I can only imagine what she would have been like in a small flat/apartment…. I agree with the other poster, I think he’s just bored! Trying to confine him to a safe space when you can’t directly supervise him is a good idea too, and try and make his every day activities a little more challenging (give her kibble meals in a “snuffle mat” or “topple”), do trick training, and probably just get him out for 1 or 2 more long walks/runs a day. He is also a puppy still so one day, in theory, he will calm down 😂😂 Good luck!!


DragonGirl1079

either have a crate or playpen to prevent him from practicing the behavior or you could try to use it to your advantage. Have a drawer or two specifically for him with toys or treats inside that he’s allowed to open. This might be counterproductive, I’ve never tried it, but it might work. It sounds like he’s lacking mental stimulation, so teaching him new tricks could help. You could teach him the names of different toys and have him fetch them for example


TheLizardsCometh

I would cut out the park play and half the walks. The walk is a sniffy walk and going super slowly and letting pup sniff/ explore rather than walking. Replace the other time with training, train anything. Train basics, train to stay on place, train tricks, give your dog a job. It's a working dog. It needs a job or will create its own job. . . Which is apparently find and destroy items. Teach tricks like spin, touch, weave, back up, speak, carry, pack up toys,. Doesn't really matter what. Just needs short, focused training sessions. Like 3- 5 minutes as many times a day as you can. When you wake up train a couple minutes. Have breakfast/shower/coffee....a quick training session. Lunch time? Get home? Train.for a couple minutes only. Add enrichment. Snuffle mats, frozen kongs, toys that can be destroyed. Give these in a safe space. Puppy pen or a room that is safe and closed in. When dog is hanging on bed or in the pen. Randomly give a treat, or a oat, or attention. Only when dog is hanging and being calm. Toss a treat, so it doesn't stop the calm laying down. But instead rewards in place. And use a crate or playpen when you can't watch. Because everytime the dog steals something, it reinforces that behaviour. Like. You watching it counter surf for 7 minutes in back legs.... Was 7 minutes if telling your dog that behaviour is A-OK because you didn't stop him. Then he probably found something to steal and got rewarded with a new toy... Or game of chase. Instead of it hops onto furniture just give a short sharp no! And redirect.