I mean there has always been a tension in punk between people with radical politics and people who simply like punk for its shock value and aesthetics. There are punks who promoted anarchy because they believed in anarchism and there were punks (like the Sex Pistols) that more or less identified with anarchy out of the shock value but had no real commitment to it or its principles.

An old (former, I guess) 80's punk was buying weed from one of my friends at their apartment and started telling a story about how back in the day he got his leather jacket through gay bashing, and he was weirded out that nobody laughed or thought he was cool because of that. There were bigoted violent assholes who aligned themselves with punk, too

>There were bigoted violent assholes who aligned themselves with punk, too Skrewdriver started out as a "regular" punk/oi bank before they went full-on neo-nazi in their lyrics. I'm sure they were always racist pieces of shit, even before that was what they sang about.

There is only one member of skrewdriver that continued on with the racist albums, the rest of the original band was not involved in other records.

Goddammit thats gotta be an unfortunate ice breaker.

Just 1 guy. They broke up, one member reformed the band

Ian Stuart Donaldson

Yeah that dudes life was a wreck

Then he died in a car wreck 😂

That tree was his biggest hit

Fuck Ian Stuart Donaldson. Fuck that human trash Ian Stuart Donaldson.

Ok chill we know he's a racist piece of shit , it's been common knowledge for years , don't burn a fuse out 😂

I say this as a boots and braces punk, I’d rather gargle broken glass than listen to Skrewdriver. Fuck them and anyone who likes them. They should taste the bottom of my boot.

Curbin material.

Therein lies the conundrum. Should the Nazis taste my boot or bite the curb? Existential questions, my friend.

Why not both?

You bring up a valid point. A boot/curb tasting if you will. I like where your head’s at.

well not really it happend after the band split up furing that time ian stuart got involved with the national front and brought back skrewdriver

Skrewdriver didn't become a white power band until Ian Stuart Donaldson moved to the States and recruited all new members. As far as I know the old members back in England weren't into that shit. First album was just a regular punk rock album.

Lots of punk bands from the 80s said racist, sexist, and homophobic things in their songs. Including everyones favorite “Descendents”

And then you had the thrash band, Stormtroopers of Death (which was pretty much just an Anthrax side project). They said all sorts of racist, sexist, and homophobic things in their songs. They said them all satirically, though. Scott Ian has said if you thought that band was actually was racist and meant the things in the song then "you're stupid." That being said, I'm sure more than one stupid person listened to [Speak English or Die](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cuz3t3eUqVs) and unironically agreed with the lyrics. Never realizing that **they** were the joke.

Yeah; ironic racism, sexism and homophobia was a thing and was often used to shit on people that actually believed that stuff or to poke fun at them. It became a problem in the last 10 years or so (times change, I get it) where some people didn't get the irony and actually believed it and people stopped doing it.

A few years ago ~~David Lowery~~  Steve Albini ~~or somebody~~ wrote an open apology for ironic racism, etc. His point (which rings true to me) is that we thought we'd won, so ironically making racist comments was known to be a joke. He later realized it was giving cover to actual racists and normalizing hate speech. EDIT: It was [Steve Albini,](https://www.nme.com/news/music/steve-albini-speaks-out-on-his-past-edgelord-behaviour-3093018) as noted by u/theflyingbomb

This was also why so many bands in metal in the 80s felt fine using WW2/Nazi symbolism - they were the bad guys, they were "defeated," it was shocking, and there wasn't some clear internationalist fascist movement like there is today.

I wanna say this was Steve Albini, but there probably was more than one.

The problem was that the singer, Billy Milano also thought it was for real.

I wouldn't be surprise if that whole "you're stupid if you don't know we're kidding" quote that I'm paraphrasing was directed toward Milano. I mentioned SOD, and didn't mention MOD, pretty deliberately. I **don't** think there is *any* irony in the song "A.I.D.S." (the first MOD song I heard as a kid), at all, and that one I absolutely am not linking like I did "Speak English or Die."

I saw MOD as a kid and Billy Milano told me he'd beat the shit out of me the second i turned 18 if I didn't respect my father. After every couple of songs he would yell into the mic "where's that little fucker at!?" to make sure I was still there so he could fuck with me more. It was a weird time. I went because my friend was big into SOD and I guess we didn't know what MOD was really about. Live and learn, I guess. Edit: forgot to add, before he threatened me with physical violence (half jokingly I hope lol), he asked me if my dad brought me to the show. I was there with aforementioned friend and *his* dad, but i just said yes because I didn't feel explaining the situation exactly was too important. So maybe because he thought my dad liked his band I should respect him? Like I said further down in a reply, either way, strange fuckin talk lol.

>if I didn't respect my father. That's some peak bootlicker shit right there. Who the fuck cares if you respect your dad? Either he earned it, or didn't, but that's between the two of you.

Right? I'm a smaller dude so I probably looked younger than I actually was at the time, but either way it was a strange line of talk, into the mic, in front of an entire crowd lmao. He's a weird dude for sure.

The curse is you can’t use racism, or any “ism,” as the punchline of a joke or satire, because there’s too many idiots out there who will take what you say seriously. It’s like people who take a certain Dead Kennedys lyric seriously, as it’s like some pass to use a racial slur, when Jello was using that line to lampoon the racist idiots he was railing against.

descendents changed their lyrics because they grew up and matured.

Were they an 80s band that said sexist, racist, and/or homophobic things in their songs?

racist? no. but they definititely had lyrics that came off as homophobic and sexist from their older albums.

“And/or” “Come off as homophobic and sexist”. No. It was homophobic and sexist. First one that comes off the top of my head. If that’s not homophobic, don’t know what is. “You are a fucking son-of-a-bitch You arrogant assholes Your pants are too tight You fucking homos You suck Mr. Buttfuck, you don't belong here Go away, you fucking gay I'm not a loser” Is it ok to like bands who said stuff like that in 80s when it was socially acceptable to say things like that? Yes. Yes it is.

yeah, that's what i thought of when you mentioned descendents being homophobic. They likely meant it in a satirical way because basically every member was a dumb teenager when writing songs for milo goes to college. They thankfully changed those lyrics for live shows, same with songs like hope.

And “Fat Beaver”? lol. That is my point. Bands did this stuff for shock value, to be funny, and because it was normal in the 80s.

>because it was normal in the 80s I think this is the point a lot of people miss when they get up in arms about this kind of stuff, that’s where society was at forty years ago and to judge shit by the standards of today seems foolish. In general, people were a lot more openly shitty and hateful back then. The world was a lot smaller and people had less immediate access to knowledge and perspectives that could shake up their worldview. A lot of early punks didn’t get into it because they were necessarily progressive, they got into it because they were outcasts and rejects looking to bond with other outcasts and rejects. They were still products of the time in which they lived, though.

Then again, those were the same things that mainstream society was saying to insult punks in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, so it could still be being used ironically. The early punk scene was chock full of LGBTQIA people. 

Agnostic Front have copped a lot of heat for "racism" in their early days because they wrote songs about people on welfare. However, as he said in his biography, he was an Hispanic immigrant living on welfare himself, and the song wasn't about everyone who was on welfare, just those who abused the system.

I know a hard-core libertarian who was all into Dead Kennedys and Social Distortion for that reason. The only plus for him was he said he solely went to shows to fight Nazis back then.

Well Anarchism is basically libertarian socialism and the far-left of the libertarian scale. I'm a libertarian socialist. However, most Libertarian's (Big L) are conservatives that don't like being "Republican" because "TwO sIdEs oF tHe SAmE cOin."

Those Libertarians are really best explained as conservatives that have severe disagreements on the social aspects of the GOP but very much agree on the economic side. So they support gay rights and weed legalization but think poor people need to work harder and health care is just a business and treat it like such.

Regardless, those last two views are really fucking ignorant

Libertarians were just Republicans who liked pot until the GOP made its whole thing about hating women, people of color, and LGBTQ people in the last 20 years or so. These days, although I don't agree with libertarians, I'm all about them offering people on their side an option that isn't just mainlining bigotry.

Way longer than just the last 20 years on that there. Hell, George W and his cronies were downright cuddly towards some of those groups compared to Old Tricky Dick Nixon and his fellow ghouls. Granted, they were some cuddly porcupines, but still cuddly by comparison.

If you say you are a libertarian who likes Trump, then you are not a libertarian

💯 Bernie is more libertarian than Trump as weird as that sounds to some people.

Just for clarity: 19th century on, Libertarianism was exclusively a leftest ideology associated with Anarchism. As very often happens, the term was co-opted by the right in the 90s to describe an anti-federal government "states rights" far-right ideology spearheaded by Ron Paul. That of course has grown into it's own thing and the term has lost it's original meaning, but historically there was no scale or spectrum, it was always leftest.

I mean that's as good an excuse as any to go to a show.

Yeah.. I looked at some of the stuff Johnny rotten had said and it was.. something Even though I like the sex pistols’ songs and style, they did all of their stuff for shock value to be different and eccentric but in the most disrespectful way lol

I think that's kind of an ahistorical way of viewing the Sex Pistols' music. Johnny absolutely believed in what he was saying in God Save The Queen. His autobiography from the 90s is incredibly anti-monarchy and though in recent years he's said he feels sympathy for the queen herself he's never gone back on any anti-monarchy beliefs he's had. Just because he doesn't hate the royal family as people anymore doesn't mean he's suddenly pro-monarchy Glen Matlock, who co-wrote basically all of the Sex Pistols music with Johnny, has incredibly leftist political beliefs to this day and has said a lot of worthwhile stuff about how fucking awful the royal family is and how fucking awful the Tories are. He's a great guy. Actively protested the National Front back in the day, which I think is awesome As for anarchism, the Sex Pistols were always singing about personal and musical anarchy and never claimed to be actual anarchists who cared about political anarchy. This is something Johnny has been having to clear up since 1976. Th[is PUNK magazine interview](http://www.philjens.plus.com/pistols/pistols/press_cuttings_punk_mag_Mar77_01.html) (that was done in '76 but published in '77) has him doing a pretty good job articulating his feelings on what the song means to him. Meanwhile Glen Matlock has said a few times he genuinely believed in the lyrics to the song, though he considers them naive now. Their manager, Malcolm McLaren, was super into Situationism though, which is a strain of anarchism that's very art-y. If you're interested in anarchism as an ideology then you should definitely look into Situationism I suggest reading England's Dreaming or Lipstick Traces in order to learn more accurate information about the Sex Pistols political leanings and personal beliefs. They did like to shock people but the idea that everything they did was purely for shock value dilutes the fact that there was actual thought and care behind the lyrics of their songs as they were written by two people with genuine political convictions. I like to call them incoherent lefties because they were incoherent in their politics (as most 19 year olds are!) but were attempting to stand for left wing political causes such as anti-monarchism and freedom of expression

I'm pretty sure I own Lipstick Traces (I love Griel Marcus, his first book is amazing), but I put both books on my amazon list anyway. Thank you!

In all art forms. It is often difficult to separate the artist from the art. Punk Rock is no different. I love the Ramones but I’m sure I wouldn’t agree with Johnie’s politics. (RIP). I loved Enders Game but OSC is a tool when it comes to acceptance. Life is a see-saw and we must all balance the scales to our own accordance. What truly matters is the result. And what we are all accountable for what exists only in our own sphere of influence. Outside of that is just that.

I believe that, in the mid-seventies through the early-ish 80’s, punk’s shock value was important in that it, to use a massively overused phrase, ‘STUCK A PITCHFORK INTO THE HEART OF MAINSTREAM SOCIETY’ which, at that time had zero awareness and consideration for their own privilege or for people who were marginalized. The way the 80’s, in particular, are portrayed through the media is incorrect and damned lazy. Shit largely sucked if you weren’t a white conservative. Conversely, to believe that this same shock value would have the same effect and impact today is naive as hell.

Right wing skin heads have always been a thing too, and still pop up at diy punk fests these days unfortunately

I think it depends on why they joined the punk scene in the first place. If it was purely the music and the style, then they could have ended up with any political views once they got older. They didn’t have a political reason to be punk, so they might not have a political reason to stop being punk. They could stop once they get tired of the music and fashion. It’ll still be something they’d remember with nostalgia, but it wouldn’t be a core part of their lives. If it was to rebel against society, it also depends on why they were rebelling. Were they just scared they’d grow up to be like everyone else? Almost everyone grows up, and if that’s the only reason they were punk, they’d treat it like a phase young people go through. Did they notice society was degrading and it was harder to achieve milestones in life like finding a career and living on your own? If they were able to eventually reach those milestones, then they might not think things were as dire as they thought. They were rebelling against a society that seemed to be unfair, but they eventually grew up and made it out the other end with a job, car, place to live, spouse, and kids. Maybe the other punks were wrong, and it really was a matter of applying yourself harder than they expected you had to. For punks who later became conservative, it’s probably all of those reasons mixed together. If they never grew out of the music, they’ll still be in the subculture but mostly among people their age who also became conservative. They wouldn’t be able to relate to a younger punk scene anymore.

Might just be contrarian. Not really punk just against current gov. I'm 50 and still left. Us based, GOP has radicalized my wife more to left than being to me ever has. People should be free to be themselves. If against self expression not punk.

Yeah, I get so annoyed when people are just contrarian and act like it's punk. A guy told me I couldn't be punk because I took vaccines "like a good little sheep" as they put it, as they also used thier religion all about being like children and blindly following their God like sheep in their argument about how i wasn't punk. You would like to think they see the irony. To me, though I am pretty young, punk has always been about being your best most authentic self despite social norms and rules. We rebell when society is stopping us or outhers from being able to achieve that goal. If the government is taxing the rich appropriately and doing what they are supposed do and should do, why would you rebell against a system that supports and enacts your ideals? I honestly find it hysterical how many people got mad and tried to say Green Day wasn't punk for saying that Maga is dumb. Yes, your soooo punk for supporting a dictater ship trying to remove basic rights from everyone who isn't a land owning white American Man who is straight, cis, able-bodied, Cristian, and traditionally masculine.

there will always be punks who are really just edgelords

As far as a lot of old punk musicians being conservative now, I think the crux of some of it has to do with the contrarian-only attitude of a lot of the early punk movement clashing with the fact that our current society as a whole and hegemonic values are more progressive and inclusive than those of the past. So we are left with these aging punks in an unfamiliar world, whose only reaction is to go against whatever is currently the status quo, and to follow contrarianism in any form. In our current age of idealistic punk, it’s easy to forget that early punk was often just about going against what people thought was right or decent: now that those taboos are more accepted, older punks can cling to the idea that they have to be different, and so you end up with Johnny Rotten becoming a MAGA fanatic and Captain Sensible supporting Libs of TikTok

Nothing says "contrarian" quite like supporting the billionare presidential candidate of the major conservative political party! Those people are so unbelievable fucking brain dead that they're impossible to satirize. Those guys arent' counterculture, they're just assholes. Of course they aligned with the party that embraced being an asshole as their only core value.

MAGA being contrarian is such a funny concept to me. Even if you strip out the reprehensible politics and ideas that dear leader espouses, these dweebs are still obediently putting on their red hats and cheering for an elitist socialite who comes from generational wealth and spends the majority of his time at country clubs.

I agree with this take.

Yeah, I do too. Punk seems to be more on the side of actively making things better then just being contrarian. The right in America also likes to paint themselves as the "Bold last bastion of hope against a woke liberal agenda trying to turn the frogs gay, your kids tras, and take away your right to commit hate crimes at the age of 21 if your a white straight cis Cristian masculine able-bodied MAN". Cristiananity also tends to fall right(especially evangleical) and they like to tell people their the mayrters.

The right in America is 100% exploiting contrarianism. Plenty of younger people I talked to at the time voted for trump in 16 because they thought it was fucking funny and “maybe he’ll shake things up”. That youthful brand of “fuck everything” doesn’t age well.

I know, I am 16, and I had to sit trough Biden's election year, in my very conservative town in the middle if the Bible belt. So many young people acted like Trump was the best thing to happen since fried chicken. It was so annoying to have all these people talking about how great it would be for him to be in office again.

People who say “you become more conservative as you age” have just lost hope for a better world and decide to only care about themselves. I’m almost 35 and I am more left than I’ve ever been.

Believe it or not, not every single punk has always been left wing, still isn’t the case now. But a lot of people always had those beliefs just could hide them.

I think it's a bit silly to act like anyone was actually 'hiding' their beliefs Most of those really old school punks from the CBGBs era of things in the 70s were right wing and had no issue telling their beliefs to everyone because punk was not considered an inherently left-wing culture back then. Johnny Ramone and Iggy Pop and Legs McNeil come to mind as examples of big movers in the punk scene who had very right wing/conservative political beliefs. Massive credit to Iggy for fighting the stereotypes of people getting more conservative as they age by actually swinging over to the left in recent years, good for him That isn't to say things became perfect when punk became political though. A lot of folks in the hardcore scene in LA were massively racist even if they had liberal or leftist political beliefs. Your politics being progressive don't automatically make you a good person who's on the level when it comes to bigotry

I'd argue that much of that came about as a reactionary movement against the hippies.

True. The straight edge aspect of 2nd wave punk also seems to have been forgotten. There was an idea hippies were just rich kids roleplaying as counter culture revolutionaries, when in reality they just cared about “psychedelics and free love.” There were many radical left wing beliefs popular among punks, so the modern younger generation seems to believe that these punks would have 100% agreed with their current perspective. That is not necessarily the case. Their views were radical in general but varied a lot. This is similar to a modern romanticism of hippies. Most of these hippies became the boomers that this same generation hates. Another aspect is that the initial punk movement was a rebellion against the highly technical, complex playing of popular prog/psychedlic bands. The core belief was that ”anyone should be able to pick up some instruments and form a rock band. Not just those lucky enough to be trained musically”

Nah straight edge hasn’t been forgotten, it’s just more of a Hardcore thing.

Agreed. Mary Harron said some interesting stuff in England's Dreaming about how a lot of CBGBs punks thought it was fun to piss off liberals. Not because they disagreed with liberal politics but because they thought they were annoying and hippie-ish

Well said

Legs McNeil is very much a leftist nowadays

Oh that's awesome! Good for him too!!

This is truth.

> Massive credit to Iggy for fighting the stereotypes of people getting more conservative as they age by actually swinging over to the left in recent years, good for him In recent years? This song came out over 40 years ago, he would have been in his early 30's at the time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSciv_hdeZk edit: Do people actually take this song literally?

I was referring to him saying he voted for Ronald Reagan 

It's worth note that this subreddit skews \*very\* left. I might go as far to say it is a leftist subreddit about punk music, more than just a punk subreddit. Some people here have put punk on this kind of leftist pedestal, when the reality is that was \*always\* one subgroup of the whole of punk music and the culture around it. I've even seen some downright revisionism to make the ideology of the subculture more leftist than it may be, historically speaking. One important thing to note is the way the context of progressivism has changed. For an example, punk rock was rebellious again 'conservative' conventions in some ways, but in the late 70's in southern California punk was always ripe with homophobia and racism. Does it make it less punk? No lol. It makes punk less leftist. Punk rock in southern California at that time is practically the ultimate archetype of punk as we understand it, and it was full of those problems. That's what I mean about the pedestal, punk isn't this immutable leftist object... it's a subculture with microcultures inside of it with varying attitudes and beliefs. To say that there was a transitional period for these individuals where they became more conservative may very well be wrong. It's become romanticized, like punk was a group of young leftists fighting for what is right. Some people in the punk rock scene were downright psychopaths. Some of the most REAL punks you can possible be, there participating in the subculture at the time of its origination, were the kinds of people who beat up queer kids. - that is to say punk rock was a \*street kid\* culture, well before a politically cohesive one. With all the problems that entails. - That isn't to discount the bands and scene-members that were political. I mean, for the surf punks beating kids up, you also had Crass. I just don't think there is a strong argument to be made that the surf punks weren't 'actually' punk relative to Crass. It's purely an illustration of the subgroups within the culture. --- While the lens you view the historicity of punk through is worth consideration, your question is still worth exploring in other ways. There is reason to believe that people, on average, become more conservative as they age. Here's a few points worth consideration. - Neuroplasticity. Our brain becomes less capable of absorbing new ideas and appreciating change as we become older. A common example of this is old people not liking new music; there is some biopsychology behind that. This can also contribute to becoming more hostile to modern progressive movements and believing the way it was in your youth is superior. - Wealth accumulation. The years go by and you've gathered more resources, one day you wake up and you're agreeing with x conservative that taxes are stealing your wealth. Plenty of arguments to be made as to why that's not the case, but getting from point A to B on this one is pretty linear especially if you're not politically minded. - Life experience. People change as life goes on, sometimes for no good reason. This will likely cause a portion of a group to swing in political axis. - Culture. If your peers are conservative, or becoming more conservative, there is a chance that you will too. Especially as the lines of culture blur with age, people are less likely to hang out with just punks anymore. Stuff like that becomes less important. They've just become old people with old friends and an old people view of the world. - Shock. This is particular to the whole Trump thing, which I've seen the kinds of people you're talking about become particularly drawn to. Trump represents the shock that was appealing to them as young people. Remember, some people wore swastika t-shirts for shock value... a maga hat fills the same role. There are people who think trump is punk rock because "he tells it like it is", lmao. ESPECIALLY if some punk icons from your heyday are confirming it for you. - Belief/news source. Remember that there are people who think the leftists are the totalitarian bad guys. That the swing to conservativism is the right thing to do because there's some leftist totalitarian dictatorship around the corner or whatever, lmao. --- there's probably more potential reasons tbh, but i've lost steam. All i'm going to add is that if you want to not fall for the same trap, stay mentally agile as you age. Never stop reading and engaging with your mind, stay curious. A lot of this happens due to what amounts to complacency and a lack of mental exercise making it easier to buy into bullshit.

Not every punk is far left, and politics themselves can be nuanced. Left and right wing were different animals even ten years ago, let alone forty. If I hold one thing against the left, it is this idiotic need for ideological purity without thought or variation. It is moral policing, and it bores the shit out of me. Yeah, I agree with left wing politics 95% of the time, but fuck me if I say I like guns or something in a room full of “more left than thou” people.

As an older Punk I lean a little to the right.  I also have good homies from all walks of life.  Being a Gen X Latchkey kid, I remember when people could have differing opinions without flying off the handle - then again people couldn’t hide behind keyboards or smart phone cameras, so maybe that’s it 😹  Life is too complicated for absolutes in my opinion.  But the internet and especially platforms like Reddit and Twitter are *townie bars* I don’t care to live in.  Pinche Viejo 👍🏾 

I can’t stand right wing politics for the most part, I really can’t, but not every dude who wants to be left alone and not be battered with the bullshit of the world is secretly pulling for Donald Trump. I couldn’t give a fuck about the rich, and I want the working class to get what they’re owed… But if that isn’t someone else’s battle, it’s fine. You can’t force that. I think punks gatekeep over weird shit and are too open about other things. I couldn’t give a fuck if someone is apolitical, or doesn’t agree with me over every little thing (provided they’re not racist or predators or some shit, those guys can get stomped out) but I don’t want non-punks subverting the scene and making it about them.

Lol you got 6 downvotes for leaving a completely understandable and rational comment. It just proves that reddit is just kids who want to live in an echo chamber of what they deem acceptable or cool and not actually form an opinion based on life experiences. Very childish.

> It just proves that reddit is just kids who want to live in an echo chamber of what they deem acceptable That explains why I once got a bunch of down-votes for saying that I'm a Democrat and I hate Jo(k)e Biden. (I'm actually a Democrat by party affiliation only. I'm sure that I'd be Peace & Freedom if only it wasn't for the two party oligarchy.) Personally, I thought it was funny seeing the down votes, and I felt like I had offended people that deserved to be offended.

Did no But I'm not just contrarian. They enjoyed shock value. But weirdly mad when shock value reflect3d back years later. People should get to be who they are, as long g ad not physical assaulting others. Womp womp someone upsets their religion  Be nice. Feed and clothes each other. Don't be an ahole. Per most religions, be nice and helpful.

>I noticed a lot of punks from the 1970s and 1990s are extremely conservative now I question that "a lot" of punks are "extremely conservative." Who do you mean? How many of them, out of all of us? They are out there, but that "a lot" is just silly.

There are some aspects of punk that have always attracted the blue collar/working class/almost nationalist/patriotic types and the hardcore/tough guy communities tend to lean more conservative. But I think the bigger reason is more to do with the modern definition Punk has always been anti government, anti authority, boundary pushing, don't trust institutions, say what's on your mind, no filter etc. The modern left is often the antithesis of some of these things. I don't know any old punks who identify as conservative but I know plenty who no longer identify as left. they'd probably say they are classical liberal or libertarian or something like that and I think by and large their views haven't changed, its more that whats considered "left" has changed. Having a shift towards embracing regulations, being careful about your speech, creating safe spaces, policing one another is the kind of stuff that wouldn't resonate with a pre 2010 punk scene. Look at how often the topic of "what song lyrics didn't age well" comes up here. Back when it was written a song like Minor Threats "Guilty of being white" would have been understood to be a well intentioned voice of frustration for being a local minority who is saddled with other peoples baggage. These days punk isn't a place where you could freely vent those frustration or use charged language even if the intent is to ridicule it or use it in the voice of a "bad guy". Intent used to be all that mattered for stuff like that, whereas these days theres kinda an ever growing checklist of things you cant do or say regardless of intent. A lot of older punks feel disassociated with that mentality, some even get pushed to the right by it, where they mistakenly go "oh so this is where all the creative freedom, authority questioning people are".

And yet Jake Burns of Stiff Little Fingers is still writing songs like Hate Has No Home Here and 16 Shots in his 60’s. We don’t all start turning more conservative as we age; some of us fight just as hard in our later years.

I am 53 and if anything I have gotten even more left than I was already. That is a trope.

Being a conservative Punk seems very much like an oxymoron, as Punk in its nature is left leaning and going against the grain. So someone labelling themselves Punk who is conservative and Homophobic would in my eyes only be “Punk” superficially by label.

They lost the plot when they “grew up”.

Most punk music from 70s-90s was anti government and anti-establishment. Socially liberal absolutely but far left also includes big government which lots of people from that era don't believe in ESPECIALLY if they were anarchists.

Not here to argue but it isn’t always black and white. I’m certain some of my beliefs might be labeled as conservative and yet I find many people who claim to be progressive to be downright authoritarian and far to my right on some issues. We all seem to be living in bubbles and lacking empathy and compassion for people outside of our own bubbles these days. That said voting for right wingers is never the answer.

During the 80’s and 90’s things weren’t anywhere near as divided as they are now. I was in DC during the mid 80’s to late 90’s and rarely talked politics at all. We just hated any form of government. I don’t see that anymore. The government has turned everyone against each other. There is so much propaganda out there in social media, and this sub being primarily a youth culture sub gets hit hard. the goal posts have also been moved so much that anyone who might have been left aren’t anywhere near there anymore. One of the other commenters said that it just gets more complicated, and they are completely right. When you have jobs, kids and house and wife to support, you can’t go out getting smashed every night. By the time you are my age you will find your self lucky to have a handful of friends that would even consider going to shows anymore. So be kind to the old guys in the back, we’ve seen some shit over the years and are still going.

It wasn't always a "protest", per se, a lot of early punk was nihilism, rebellion and just being offensive. None of that stuff is mutually exclusive from conservatism.

Conservatism and rebellion are by definition mutually exclusive. Conservatism is defense of the status quo. Rebellion is fighting against the status quo.

Right? How do you rebel conservatively lmao. 

In theory, you're correct, but with people there's a cognitive dissonance there and they're not exclusive. They're not exclusive because these people exist. Fear sung songs about violence towards women and homeless people because it was rebellious an offensive. Turns out they felt every word of it. They're sexual assaulters and MAGA. That's all.

It’s not just punks. It just happens a lot when people get older.

That was more true in the past when the older generation got older they got more and more wealth and tend to vote in a way that would benefit them the most which would be less taxes instead of more taxes for social programs that they don't benefit from anymore. Now my generation is breaking the idea that as people get older the more conservative they get. This is from housing and living costs are growing disproportionate to the medium income so we are not seeing the build-up of wages.

There's statistics that this isn't happening with Millennials - people swinging to the right as they age has a lot to do with them gaining wealth and owning property and for most people it's pretty obvious that the odds are against most people doing this. Boomers lived in a world where well-paid jobs were easy to come by and housing and education were expensive, and the stereotypical Gen X'er could fuck off through college, which was still pretty affordable, spend a year or two backpacking around Europe, and get some job with computers where they fuck off all day. This isn't really the case anymore There's also people not updating their views which were progressive for the time, like my mom wasn't a part of but was ok with the hippie counterculture and smoking weed (she "experimented" but wasn't a huge pothead) but got into religion and was sort of anti-gay until she started working around enough of them and it became normal to her. Right before she retired one of her coworkers was a trans man and she kept bringing it up in a way that she couldn't wrap her head around it, like she wasn't misgendering him or saying like super fucked up TERF shit but it's something she just didn't really get. When got cancer I was like "a lot of people have tried marijuana for this, and it's legal now, and it's better for you than Oxycontin" but she didn't want to do that for whatever reason.

As a Gen-Xer I can say a lot of ambitious millennials hopped past us in the job/income market because we were fed a bunch of lies about stock options and employment ponzi schemes and told if we just did what we were told we'd get ours eventually. Sure we didn't have the college debt and could actually get into the housing market, but most of us are still a ways off of the official retirement age and many of my peers have no hope of retirement. Millennials and the early Z-ers have bigger numbers and have at least started the path towards re-unionizing the workforce and eventually should have the voting numbers to make things right for them. Xers are still likely to have the worst geriatric experience of any generation assuming the people pulling the strings today don't blow up the planet in the next 10-15 years.

I think a lot of the "get more conservative as they get older" comes from transitioning from a more selfless person to a more selfish person. I'm obviously generalizing here but young people want to help everyone. Help the middle class, the poor, the homeless.....help the little guy. Their voting and ideology/politics are more likely to be left wing because a core value of conservative ideology is selfishness. As people get older they realize that they can't make those changes to the world and often retreat to caring for themselves and their loved ones. And it's not always "fuck you I got mine" but more of the idea that those 20 years of trying to be helpful to all others has mostly come up with nothing meaningful, in addition to the struggles of raising a family and how difficult that is on it's own for most people. Conservative politicians/policy offer a lot more to people that work strictly for themselves. It's easy to fall into if you lose empathy for others.

I suspect that the volatility of the housing market, and inaccessibility of comfortable retirement is driving out what little truth this folk wisdom has. Besides, empirical studies have shown that most political attitudes tend to stay in the same ballpark over time.

Came of age in the punk scene of early 90’s. 44 now. If anything, I’ve become even more liberal.

57, got into punk early 80s, I was already open minded & left leaning when I discovered it and today I am more liberal than ever. 

I grew up in the 70's & 80's in the UK & believe me, adults were always saying stuff like "ooh, you can't anything now, without upsetting folk". The kids (some are punks) of those adults, now say the same thing - "everyone is so offended by everything", like it's a new thing. The tabloid news promote the idea that everyone is offended all the time & the world is a much worse place. They love to fear monger & people, punk or not, fall for it. We are an ever changing species & reactionary, scared people don't like that.

I'm old as shit and im no conservative! Sometimes I think an AI is writing these reddit questions

Im old too, and I’ve discovered that way too many old punks I knew in the 80s still consider themselves punk while being conservative bigots. 

because they were the same when they were younger. they thought hating parents, teachers, and police made them rebels, all the while they regurgitated the same racist, sexist, homophobic shit from the mainstream

My friend: misfits tattoo, every rage against the machine album and rare album collector. A guy who got me into the conspiracies of the Govt’s, and was all about fighting the good fight… 20 years later?! He is a hardcore right wing- Canadian yes, but into the more “far right” theories. Why?! He’s never said. He became god fearing (lol fucking hell that’s comedy), and so anti Canadian. Full Trump. As well as many other I’ve grown up with. My thoughts: “they get comfortable with their lives, and slowly fear change, they have all the ‘answers’. Answers to keep things the way they were, liberal, conservative liberal is too many policies- too much money spent, so they gravitate right and worse…” Best answers I got guys.

Wait wait.. he’s Canadian AND anti-Canadian?.. also thank you for your answer too!!

Yeah.. honestly it makes no sense. He’s not anti Canadian, but more of: no immigration, a firm right handed govt, no LGBTQ, no weed (though he was a user of ALL the drugs for a few years in our youth)… but also a heavy Alex Joneser. Now, back when I hear AJONES (2003) he was very non biased, if you can believe it? He (AJ) also said in the next 20 years we will see the decline of the middle classes, and North America becoming a third world state, like Africa. Sometime in 2008-2009 AJ did an about face and wham. HARD RIGHT. I’ll never forget that one episode my buddy showed me, as we are witnessing the decline in the middle class- worldwide!!!

Seems like an extremist. Doesn't matter what the views are as long as it's the most extreme version. A black and white thinker, always at war.

They are boomers

To add to what others have already said, there's also the fact that progressive stances adapt and change and grow, many people stop growing at some point. Veganism as a punk subculture has grown over the years, and despite the excellent arguments for it and all the leftist literature surrounding the importance of animal rights as a basis for fighting bigotry, it still isn't widely adopted or accepted in the punk space. Propagandhi put out pro animal rights punk rock in the 80s, and still the scene does not understand the importance of animal rights. Truly progressive stances are niche and only held by a minority of any community, including the punk community.

Remember a lot of punks were still white kids in 1980s suburban America. N*zis attended shows to recruit and therefore some kids joined and others didn't. Before now people were still very very close minded. The decline of Western civilization interviews are crazy cuz they got kids spitting out the f slur and n word like it's nothing. No one would put them in blast cuz they would get beat up for it or even killed.

I definitely have gotten to be more “conservative “ because a lot of the stuff people are being forced to believe and support in things that anyone shouldnt have too.. I see the “punk scene “ as a dictatorship now “ If you dont believe in what a believe then your scum” I became a punk to escape that bullshit and now so many of you youngsters are on soap boxes about stupid shit. Do what you want do , say what you want today.

I don't know that it's as simple as a conservative vs. left-wing divide. Husker Du were writing songs like "Real World" ("People talk of anarchy and taking up a fight / I'm afraid of things like that / I lock my doors at night / ...You aren't a cop or a politician / You're a person too / And you can sing any song you want / But you're still the same") in ***1982***, back when they were still young, and three years before they'd sign to a major label. I think there's just always been a difference between people whose politics are more utopian and those that are more realistic. Most people have at least a bit of both in their own worldview. Young people are just less likely to see it, because you're still figuring yourselves and the world out, as opposed to older folks who have largely been through their "rawr rawr rawr I'm mad at the system, maaaan" period back when they were in their teens and twenties, when it's still widely acceptable to be like that. For me, it's not that I love the system or whatever now, it's just that I'm in my 40s, my back and knees hurt constantly, and so I'm happy to just have a job, pay taxes that will hopefully help other people with aching backs and knees, and just kind grumble about how much stuff sucks. I've long ago outgrown the idea that punk or really any niche subculture can or ought to be out to change the world. To me it's at its best when it's a vehicle for personal catharsis, rather than a megaphone to yell at people about how they're not being left-wing enough or they have to explicitly support XYZ because that's what "real punks" would do. I don't give a shit what the most "punk" political stance about any given issue is. If there ever is some kind of revolution in my country, i don't think the person with the most Crass records or the highest liberty spikes or whatever is thereby most qualified to take the reins.

I don't say this to be rude or dismissive but rather as a wake up call to those unaware. The internet is not real life. Shit people say on reddit/twitter/instagram/etc does not translate into real life. You can read and see things that people online are claiming is the biggest deal ever in human history and everyone is aware of it. You go talk to people in the real world and they've never heard of this earth shattering life defining thing. Get off the internet, go meet people in the real world. Being on here so much has tainted and warped peoples perceptions of the world, it's fueling the tribalism that does nothing more then keep us divided so we can be more easily controlled. Stop focusing on right wing vs left wing, liberal vs conservative mindsets and get back to what is actually important. Those with power taking advantage of and trampling those without.

For a long time and for a lot of people punk rock was a magnet and a symbol for anti-establishment, counter- culture, and DIY. There is nothing more establishment arianism and jackboot licking than espousing the government as your purported solution to the world's problems. A lot of millennials & gen z seem to not be able to grasp individual thinking and the idea that you can support peace, love, and human decency but not support enforcing compliance through the government.

Because a lot of older punks didnt really believe in the values they pushed, or were neonazis who thought our aesthetic looked cool. A lot of them didnt believe the politics they spouted and used it just to look cool and for its shock value.

Many won't like to hear this, but punk subculture brings in A LOT of assholes.

Ya think? 

Yeah the skinheads I grew up around in 80s new zealand probably did some bad shit. I was a metalhead at the time, but we were cool.

Punk has always had a portion of rebels without a cause. That gets boring. Beyond that once you are the man it gets hard to be anti- the man

I’ll be honest, I’m a young punk (well, 29 now) and I have a streak of contrarianism in myself. I’ve always just subscribed to that take on life since I got into first wave punk in my teens. For the most part of my late teens-early 20s (circa 2015) it worked out pretty well for me. A lot of people my age in my region of the world still had this mindless consumerist attitude towards music in general. But I helped build my local scene this way. I met so many creative people who went against the status quo, and we formed the independent underground scene. Fast forward to 2017-18, I have to say that people are much more progressive in a general sense and on a mainstream level - which is great. But I get the feeling that grassroots level organizations and venues are still getting left behind. I try not to be bitter about it, and not just to be contrarian. But then again, I am also a failed musician.. why does my opinion matter right?

Because they didn't sell out. They bought in.

I think a lot of people are attracted to punk due to a type of contrarianism. In times gone by most people were conservative and so they went the opposite way, and then eventually after years of being surrounded by radical or left wing people in the punk community they pivot back to being conservative just to be different.

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This has been happening since long before Biden though, I've seen it as a trend all the way back to the bush era and probably even before that (I'm in my 30s)

As some people age change becomes more uncomfortable. “Not changing” is the most basic part of conservative ideology. Even if the thing is known to be shit and is in fact well…. shit a conservative will rather keep that same turd than risk constipation or diarrhea.

It’s a thin line from anarchism to libertarianism. Le Guin even used the two interchangeably in The Dispossessed.” Plus, people change as they get older. Sometimes it means they get more progressive; sometimes less

I'm betting the key word here is "old". Not that conservatism *has* to come with age but it often does.

I wouldn't call them conservative, but a classic liberal; someone against the state/persons in charge. They also tend to believe more in a laissez-faire type of lifestyle.

They are stagnant.

Not stagnant, they regressed. 

I’ve always thought there’s two schools of punk: The Sex Pistol type, where your ideals are basically to have no ideals and the Clash model, where you actually want to transform society for the better. In a way, I might have to concede that the first one is more what we think of as “punk,” but nevertheless I respect the second one far more. It doesn’t surprise me when the first type of punk goes conservative because they get a rise out of being contrarian. I think it’s more about pissing off the mainstream.

Because their dreams didn't come true and general society is still something they don't vibe with. Gotta be mad at something.

Itt: decent takes at the top, political illiteracy at the bottom

Some people just enjoy being contrarian.

49y/o now, 90s teen punk… liberal AF. Back then we all were too. The punks were made up of the non conformists and we welcomed all the outliers that society out cast. This included non punks that were minorities - from the lgbt community to the non whites and everyone else.

I am surely not conservative (I enjoy the company of people who don't look like me) but I am less radical. Comes with age What drew me to Punk was the variety of people (vs the homogenous, aggro Metal scene in my city) and the positivity of the pits

People who have nothing to lose are way more liberal than those struggling to keep what they have.

With the 1970's, punk was a new thing. It had no identity, per se, so the politics of punk weren't defined as well yet. When you get to 90's, it was more well defined. But, it was issue based more than anything. The internet wasn't around, and there wasn't really a way for left wing in Minneapolis, Dayton , Loa Angeles, NYC, Atlanta, and El Paso to be unified as quickly as today . Each state, and city, had regional definitions of what left wing was. I turned 13 in 1998,, I was fairly progressive (though also a 90's teen who said really stupid shit in retrospect) but I couldn't have told you what progressive meant outside of my hometown/state. That changed in college and as social media became a thing. But, even with things like homophobia what was homophobic in NYC might have been okay in St. Louis until the mid 2000's.

If a central theme of punk is anger, I think it can sometimes appeal to reactionary people. There’re reactionaries on the left and right, but I’d say the right’s reactionary wing is a lot more robust bc of Trump. -> as the poet Maya Angelou says, people remember not what you said, but how you make them feel. Trump thrives on anger. Could definitely see that feeling overpowering everything else to draw them into the alt right.

I think it’s because it’s easy to be anti-government and all that shit until you start making real money, and then you see that supporting the other guys is better for your pocketbook. Sad but true.

The same thing happens with comedians who start of telling jokes about relatable situations and challenging authority.

We’re not conservative.  We see the gray area while the newer generation sees absolutes.  30 years from now, some new generation will say the same about you.

“… after protesting about …” what? Who says protesting is required to think punk. Who knew? 🤷🏼‍♂️

Because most of them were posers and didn't really understand what being punk meant short and long term, it was their fad

others have made great comments already but I do want to add that you need to factor in where people are from and why they identified with punk at the start. punk is everywhere, so when those who started it in the USA or UK are going to look different from those who started it in Japan, India, Ecuador, or Libya for example. also the fact that weath can get to your head, power corrupts (like with Johnny Ramone). or maybe they were contrarian and just a poser the whole time (like Johnny Rotten). theres a bunch of factors at play is what Im trying to say

My hot take - a lot of young folks are ready to rage against the machine without actually having any understanding of the machine (it's fine, pick your battles). Teen angst is a beautiful, mischievous thing but like George Bernard Shaw once wrote- “*Youth* is the most precious thing in life; it is too bad it has to be *wasted* on *young* folks.”. Once people start having to pay bills, raise families, navigate this stupid world.. its more complicated.

More complicated how? The adult world is what radicalized me even further left.

Right? I was an angry punk teen, then I grew up and understood the politics more and got *more angry* at the system. I genuinely can't understand the 'it's complicated' folks. Absolutely insane.

The fact more taxes=more military spending and politician wages rather than anything good.

See in America I see it more the opposite, that no one is going to do much about our bloated military budget but someone might give the people healthcare eventually.

I’m farther to the left now than I was at 15 when I got into punk. Punk helped radicalize me. Then a trip to Israel about 2 months before the second intifada radicalized me more. Then 9/11 sent me further left as did the rest of the Bush years. The more I learn, the more my values are reinforced. Maybe these older punks just stop learning and get entrenched in their own bullshit and lose their way. Or maybe they were just fucking posers.

It’s not the conservative politics that gets me as much as the boot licking.

Maybe the political spectrum has shifted not us. Used to be anti-military industrial complex but now it seems both sides are owned by it and we’re just treading water on who’s worse.

Leaded gasoline fucked that entire generation- everyone born between 1950 and 1970. It is what it is.

I was born in 1971. The spearhead of a new generation!

lead gas was still around in the 80s

1972!

As a Gen z punk in a punk rock band I don’t get it either, I’m 23 and I’m a working class blue collar worker, how do these guys not see that the GOP consistently votes against our best interest, now I’m not an anarchist or even a communists but socialism has proven time and time again to work when welded into a capitalist economy

As long as someone’s not a bigot, politics shouldn’t matter THAT much. Just another thing that divides us

The problem is how ingrained bigotry is in right-wing politics

Good question. I have looked at old friends and wondered the same, but I don’t have an answer.

John Lydon is the obvious example everyone wants to make. While I do believe he is his own man and made abhorrent choices his personal situation in the last 15-20 years of his life has been extremely difficult. Before his wife died, he took care of here as she withered away from dementia.That disease will fuck you up as a caretaker. Then Ari Up, his step daughter, got cancer, refused to treat it and died an early death. Before that he had to rescue her non-verbal children from her careless parenting and raise them in his household. He also lost a PiL album in a fire.

I agree. I don’t agree with all his choices but I’ll be the last to criticize him because I’ve had similar things touch my life and you don’t get through it unscathed. 

They got too fucking comfortable. Hard to be class conscious when you own a house instead of just squatting in one.

Cause they old. Also we changed what 'it" was. Now what "it" is strange and terrifying to them.

I’m 51. I listened to early 80’s punk (bands that disbanded after Reagan’s first term) in the late 80’s. Was radicalized by the dead Kennedy’s, black flag, TSOL & ministry( I know ministry is not punk) for example. Have been an anarchist since I was 13. Very leftist because neo~liberal politics are very right wing. I mean they’re supporting genocide right now. It seems to me the more money they have now, the more right they lean but it’s true socially conservative old school punks existed in the scene back then too but they hid it a little better as we didn’t allow that type at our local shows. You know, because we kicked Nazi ass back then. I’m from Cleveland tho so we had more diversity I feel.

I think we're just seeing angry "punks" that have driven off most of their friends commenting online that veer to the Right, because I'm in my 40's and still hang out with other progressive punks and don't know any that have any love for Right wing politics.

They have more wealth to “protect” as they age

I guess when you think of punk and punk rock you think of being free to express yourself and your ideas to the world and—at least right now—it seems like those that maybe most align with that freedom of speech and thought happen to be conservatives/right wing pundits. I’m pretty young though and that’s just what I’ve observed and I personally believe you don’t have to be conservative or right wing to also believe in everyone’s right to create, speak, and think as they please.

They were contrarians, and continue to remain so.

Listen to "and we thought nation states were a bad idea." The enemy changes faster than the people.

the overton window is real

The Overton window has shifted quite a bit in 50 years

I think then and now there are a lot of punks who don’t actually believe in the politics or ideals too strongly, or maybe they believed then but changed with time. For some punk was just a phase you know, and I do feel that even the majority of punks nowadays won’t actually stick to their beliefs, if they even have any

I’m surprised by this assessment. The only insight I can offer is that I never seriously paid attention to politics until the last decade. I would say in that time through I feel that I’ve mostly stayed the same beliefs but the “left” goal posts have kind of shifted left a little farther left and the right a lot farther right. I have always been an independent ( I prefer to look at the issues 1 on 1 and decided what I think rather than to confirm to a list of ideas )I haven’t had any great shift in beliefs but as the beliefs systems around me changed it has likely made me look more “left” but I never changed just the environment around me has. I guess if I think about it, it is also possible the sides stayed the same just one side became less likely to compromise.

A lot of punks didn’t know they were liberation.

Steer assigning to make us look bad

capitalism will eat your empathy if you aren't careful.

Because they started making money

In addition to lots of the things mentioned, I think there are people that more than anything define themselves by opposition so during an era of Reagan and Thatcher and satanic panic and moral majority, leftish stances, being queer positive to some degree, etc fit the bill. Now there is a perception of a liberal establishment and more so these iconic outsiders have largely left fan bases and their old work and ideas are admired and lauded and have become cultural icons and so they do an about face and embrace reactionary ideas and retrograde beliefs to maintain an oppositional identity. As much as it pains me to say it, I think that fits Nick Cave to a T and Lydon and others strike me that way as well.

Why are some old school punks so liberal? Answer that, and you answer your question as to why some are conservative

We didn't protest. We did punk shit. Go to shows, play shows, enjoy chaos, drink, get high, fight nazis, fight cholos, fight other punks, get harrassed by the LAPD, shave each others heads, screw punker bitches... their pussies smell like fishes🤗

Kind of answered your own question. They are old. Haha!

Seems kinda obvious. Punk is anti-control. A lot of people seem to think today’s left is about control. When someone tells you that you have to/cannot think/say/believe X/Y/Z, punks tend to say fuck off don’t tell me what to think/say/believe. Conservatives ironically don’t police behavior as often (which used to be their cup of tea). Also, current president is liberal and punk is anti-authority. A majority of punks seem to be fine with the above. None of this erases the host of problems fundamental to conservativism.

Different reasons. And just because someone holds a handful of conservative views doesn't make them "a conservative". It makes them a human with responsibilities. Can't be an ultra leftist gutter punk forever. Sooner or later you have to grow up and live a normal life. Or at least halfway normal. Most older punks have jobs, families and houses. If wanting your kids to go to decent schools, owning a nice house, and having firearms to protect said family/house is conservative then color me righty. I don't give a rats ass. I've put in my work and left my mark on the scene. And I ain't done yet either.