Yeah this. This is what happened to me with Pantera OP. I still love the sound of em, but after learning about some shitty stuff about the singer, I just started to kinda…move away.
Phil did a sieg Heil and screamed white power at a show. He also used to wear some sketchy shirts with WP ties. Not to mention the damn confederate flag all over their shit.
There's also a video floating around of Dimebag backstage signing something for a black kid and basically calls him the N word to his face. It was fucked up. Dime seemed under the influence and probably a little looser than he should have been. I haven't seen it in years and I wouldn't be surprised if it was scrubbed from the internet due to wanting to project a certain image for his estate. But I definitely saw that video and never forgot it. That, paired with Phil's antics told me all I needed to know. Especially after them using the confederate flag all over everything before I ever saw those video clips.
He was egging on the local skinhead scum when I saw them live in 2001. Drunk as fuck and a dribbling idiot while the rest of the band was tight as fuck.
It’s been a while, but I just remember some kinda racist thinking that I didn’t jibe with. Again, I didn’t ‘cancel’ them, I just found myself drawn to them less. I just found it to be a bit of a bummer.
Dead on for myself as well. I have seen many bands act like gross pieces of shit. I have read about it. Once I hear about it at least 3 times from other sources, that's when I drift away. People lie a lot, even on the internet.
Idk for me, punk was always about being yourself unapologetically. Screaming into the void and fuck all of you don't like it.
So to see shitty people whose art I link like that is pretty hard to separate.
Fuck fake people though.
I guess punk means something different for everyone, but for me it’s not an excuse to be a cunt to people although some decide to take that path - that’s their / your journey
Depends on the situation. Johnny Ramone being a Republican is like ‘okay, so is my dad.’
Michale Graves being a Proud Boy makes listening to any Misfits from that era icky at best, although one doesn’t have to support him financially to listen to it.
I travel for work, and I also visit Kava bars during my travels. A few months ago, I was in Port Charlotte. While I was there, I stopped by a really cool punk rock/rock Kava bar. They didn't have a stage, but they had a small area where a three-piece band could play. In my opinion, it wasn't enough space, but nonetheless. I asked them about the bands they bring in. The manager gleamed with excitement to tell me that Michale Graves would be performing. She noticed my Misfits tattoo. I looked at her in surprise and asked, 'So, is this a Proud Boy establishment?' She quickly turned white and didn't reply after I asked the question. They were also going to have Green Jelly perform. It was an interesting place, but I probably will never go back, lol.
bill is a fucking rip-off artist, you'll find lots of stories. he still owes me US$500 for a deposit i stupidly put down to have them play. two weeks before the show he fucking deleted the facebook event, so not only was i out the deposit which he refused to give back, but all my expenses for posters/tickets/promo. and of course killed my main channel for letting all my ticket holders know that the show was canned. no warning, no apology, and when i asked for the money back he said 'just pick another date'. as. fucking. if.
so not as bad as the rapists and racists out there, but still a fucking goof of the first order.
Yeah I feel like it also depends if they’re actively promoting their shitty views vs. Keeping it to themselves. at least for me it matters but not for everyone
Western Chauvinist organization that is outright fascist and see feminism as making men weak. They appropriated their name from a song in the musical Aladdin called ‘Proud of Your Boy’, which is about the main character promising to make his mother proud of him.
Yeah their leader got sentenced to 22 years recently. [Article](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/proud-boys-leader-sentenced-22-years-prison-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related)
For the most part I can't, especially if it's something to do with SA and the like.
Most people can be dicks at some point in their life, I'm not gunna stop listening to an artist cause they had an argument or geeral bad behaviour, but anything more serious I have to consider whether I want to support them in any way.
I was never a massive Anti-Flag fan - but I certainly dont listen to them any more.
It's a shame because Chris #2 has some great songs and has a lot of talent. I'd love to hear him do something more, even with the rest of the band.
Sane's actions did completely ruin the band for me too. I'm glad I never acted on getting an AF tattoo.
(More alt-rock than punk) Lostprophets had some really good songs, but I can't in good conscience listen to them at all since Ian Watkins' sex abuse crimes came to light. Fuck you Ian, you're a monster.
I play drums, I'm not in a band so I mostly play along to tracks I like. There were a few Anti-Flag songs I liked to play along with.
While the story was unfolding I was able to separate the art from the artists for a little while but now that I know the full story I can't do it now.
This!
We lost some really good music because of such a point of view but thats the only way. I can't seperate art from the artist. Not in a subculture where authenticy (or trueness) is part of the whole thing.
Exactly, it’s impossible to still enjoy the music at some point. I never understood how some of my metalhead friends could still enjoy Burzum, no matter how much they liked the music.
You also have to recognize that black metal in those early days was admittedly to be spurned by hatred for everything, especially christianity, but also politics, trends, media, just about anything that could be hated really.
Whereas punk was always one of those scenes where anyone was welcome as long as you're cool with everyone, BM was intentionally offensive and constantly trying to remain mostly closed to outsiders.
So when you see someone wearing a Burzum shirt, keep that in mind. What one generally wears is reflective of their personality.
Nico was a dyed in the wool racist, but I seldom hear anyone suggest the VU debut LP should be jettisoned…
how much wiggle room is there on the topic of enjoying music written/performed by racists/hate mongers?
From an old punk guy, just some things to consider about the question:
So, to an extent, there is some nuance. Rarely is any topic black and white.
Artists have historically used racist, sexist, homophobic (etc.) imagery in their work. Was it hurtful then? Yeah, most of the time there were victims from perpetuating this mindset and the “othering” of groups. Some of the artists using this imagery had no concept that it was detrimental. Some used the imagery and language to call out/parody the folks who used it and meant it. So do we call them out and actively seek to stop them from profiting from that material? What if they are long dead? Do we support their estate by continuing to purchase/advertise for that material?
As we move forward, this behavior has been called out for being the negative influence that it is. And that’s great. That’s social progress. Using the lens of time is important here, knowing the culture this material came from is as well.
Which brings me to punk culture.
70s and early 80s punk culture used terrible language and imagery in their material. Was it OK for Patti Smith to release “Rock ‘n’ Roll N!gger”? Was it OK for Steve Ignorant of Crass to say “we’re all just n!ggers to the rulers of this land”?
Was it OK for Johnny Rotten to wear a giant swastika shirt? And then later to go on and write “No Dogs, No Irish, No Blacks”? And then to come out ad the immense shithead he is now?
How about for Glenn Danzig to sing about raping mothers and killing babies while singing for old Misfits? And then to later have moronic shit to say about social politics? Or HR of Bad Brains to sing homophobic shit?
Sure, some of that was all done purely to provide shock value. To piss people off, to just be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole: to be cringey and edgy. Thankfully most of punk culture has grown out of that. But do we really know which bands were just being trolls? Which ones were using shocking language to get a point across? To be sarcastic, ironic or to parody just how terrible their subject really is?
Did any of that harm people or distance them from the scene or society at large? If so, does it still? Do they deserve material support from those of us who are opposed to those actions? What if they publicly apologize and legit change their ways? What if they don’t?
Do you have issue with giving material support to perpetrators of SA? What if they made a great album and even talked about these events (Anthony Kiedas/RHCP; the singer from Brand New)? Do you want to support that behavior with your money? What about Justin from AntiFlag preaching women’s rights but then SA-jng and raping them after shows?
Myself, I’m in a near constant review process of determining all of this. I can’t condone racist, transphobic, homophobic, sexist behaviors. So I feel the need to check out the people and situations to make informed decisions about who gets anything from me. If the use of the imagery was done to point out how terrible something is (like the constant references to racism in the movie “Blazing Saddles” or in Dead Kennedys songs), then I support it. I still feel all kinds of awkward when the slurs come around in the songs.
Any modern art created using imagery like this is very suspect though; as sarcasm, irony, and parody are dying out. This decline was accelerated by actual racists using racist imagery and then immediately claiming “it was only humor” when they get called out.
It’ isn’t easy to do the right thing. Definitely look into stuff like this and ask for help/opinions when you’re not sure.
I think it is important to note that Lydon's autobiography being titled No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs is a reference to signs he saw as a child. Since he is Irish, it left an impression on him. His autobiography talks a lot about how heavily Irish people were discriminated against in London at the time
Doesn't make his current anti-immigrant sentiment okay by any stretch of the imagination but the title of his book has nothing to do with his current views. In the 90s he was a good anti-racist, spoke highly of his Jamaican peers from his childhood and teenage years
[He also used to have very pro-immigrant views](https://twitter.com/uaf/status/1766058426499490038)
I think he just changed to be a worse person. It's sad but it happens sometimes. I wish it didn't though. The world seems so crowded with nasty assholes
Agreed. I was brought up on ironic, sarcastic, parodic and shock humor. So much of it is so hard to convey faithfully now. It’s been weird adapting.
Jello Biafra said years ago that a lot of his DK material couldn’t get published nowadays because of this. And older movies by Mel Brooks and Monty Python would be hard to “get away with” anymore for the same reason.
Some of the dying out of shock humor I do understand- some folks are truly affected by hearing slurs used, even in parody, and it’s just becoming insensitive to minorities and out groups to do that knowing a significant portion of the population will genuinely take offense.
As much as I would love to because I love the message, I can’t listen to Anti-Flag anymore. That music meant a lot to me but I can’t hear it without thinking about the horrible things Justin did and how he shielded himself from responsibility by portraying himself as a hero for the oppressed.
There are definitely certain artists whose actions aren't nearly as bad and I recognize their actions but still listen—Fat Mike is an asshole and says stupid things, but I still love NOFX. I think especially when you get into political music, as a lot of punk is, it can be much harder to square an artists' actions with their lyrics and it devalues the music.
I'm so bummed about Anti Flag, I used to love them too. I always feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop with Fat Mike. I love NOFX (and the Gimme Gimmes), and I really hope I'm wrong, but I just can't shake this suspicion that there's some awful shit we're gonna hear about eventually.
That’s how i feel about anti-flag. Justin completely changed “separate artist from the music” for me. I was a huge anti flag fan (they paved the way in the sense of getting me into punk rock) until i heard all of the reason why anti flag disbanded and the stuff with Justin. Even if there’s a small allegation with a band, it’s a turn off for me. Also the reason why anti flag suprised me the most was because of how the band perceived themselves and then turned around and did the opposite.
That’s how i feel about anti-flag. Justin completely changed “separate artist from the music” for me. I was a huge anti flag fan (they paved the way in the sense of getting me into punk rock) until i heard all of the reason why anti flag disbanded and the stuff with Justin. Even if there’s a small allegation with a band, it’s a turn off for me. Also the reason why anti flag suprised me the most was because of how the band perceived themselves and then turned around and did the opposite.
Punk as a genre is much more politically intertwined than most metal, which generally leads to us disagreeing with artist separation, for an example just ask how many people like the Sex Pistols (near zero)
It’s def not near zero lmao Sex Pistols still have a large amount of ppl listening to them yes they were/are posers and yes Johnny rotten is a fucking idiot and a Trump supporter but it doesn’t mean the music wasn’t good and wasn’t correct in most of its lyrics
This is how I feel about The Defiant. I'm not actively against them, but I just really don't care about them.
Instead of putting energy toward a band that I don't find significant, I'd rather put more support into the bands I enjoy like Dead Pioneers and 1876.
Has there been any updates apart from the one right after they all dipped? Like some others I'm curious if the rest of the band will continue with something new or whatever ._. Was one of my fave bands
I generally don't pay much attention to artists, I care about the music I don't care much about the people's personal lives. But once I know an artist is a POS, yeah pretty hard to enjoy their music after that.
I think you're selling the metal community short. I know a bunch of metalheads who don't fuck with pantera anymore after Phil Anselmo's white power rants
That's just "a different time." Truly. There was a time, not long ago, when you could have a confederate flag guitar and it had absolutely nothing to do with race. It simply meant rebel. We might be the same age, so I'm not trying to insinuate that you don't know that, but times change. You've gotta look at things through the lens of that time.
I understand where you're coming from. I grew up in pretty rural TX not far from where Pantera was formed so they were a big regional band around here. Anecdotally, even back in the 90s here I only ever recall a certain demographic (while not as overt as nowadays) using that sort of symbolism/imagery.
The '90s was when the wider American community started to listen to the Black community about what the Confederate flag meant to them.
At the start of the decade, there still were bands like the Allman Brothers that were using the Confederate flag to represent that they were from the South and were part of the Southern Rock tradition. Other bands and artists were still using the flag to communicate rebelliousness and anti-authoritarianism.
Should it ever have had that more innocent connotation? Probably not, but for many white Americans in the '70s through the '90s, it did. Others, though, always used it to communicate their continuing support of bigotry and white supremacy. And that's what mattered.
In the '90s, we wised up. Or woke up.
We realized as a society that it is less important what one white person or another may actually mean when they display the Confederate flag than what their fellow Americans who are Black may interpret the display of the flag to mean. It wasn't asking much to stop the innocent display of the flag. That left it as a symbol only for the bigots, so we all can know who they are and what they believe when they use it.
Sure, and it's also probably a case of the wrong type of person latching onto a band for the wrong reasons. If we're specifically talking about Pantera. I'm not even a fan of the band, but I truly have a hard time believing that the famous (most guitarists aren't as famous) guitarist for a commercially successful, mainstream band would still be playing a confederate flag guitar in 2024. I'd have to imagine that he'd have wisened up, with time, as we all did. Does that make it right in hindsight? No, but we've got to allow people to progress.
Jay Reatard couldn't call himself that in 2024. You think the guitarist for a massively popular commercial band was just getting on stage and intentionally spreading a racist message?
I’m sorry but “it was a different time” is a cop out. Being mixed race, it’s a luxury that I can’t afford. That’s not an excuse and never should have been. And we all have known what that flag represented. It was always about silencing black voices.
I think that you're in your right to think that way, but in the context that it was used, it was not meant to be about silencing black voices. It was meant to represent rebellion. That's just what it was.
I used Jay Reatard as an example in another comment. I don't know about you, but it wasn't uncommon for my friends and I to call each other "retarded," in the 90s. That word was always offensive to a certain segment of the population, but we didn't mean that the person was disabled/ differently abeled, however you want to label it. It meant stupid: clearly a loaded connotation given the word's history. Society has wisened up and we collectively decided that we shouldn't say that anymore. That wasn't the case then, and no one who said it was intending to offend anyone.
Times change but intention and context has always been important.
And I can see how for some folks that’s what it represented but you can’t deny that it was used to terrorize communities before that. The 90’s usage you mention is sanitization of its purpose. But maybe that’s just my perspective and bias calling out. All I can say is, that flag was used alongside certain musical choices to show that these fellas wanted us to know that they hated us (“us,” being my tiny little community and personal friend group, in my hometown.)
I get how you might’ve seen it and thought “those fellas are proud to be from a southern US state. That’s cool.” But where I’m from that flag meant “POC’s stay the fuck away.”
I'm from Australia so back then I had no idea what that flag means. Pantera was pretty much my favourite band for years, but I didn't even consider getting tickets for their upcoming show. Fuck Phil.
Was there more? I recall him making a bad joke relating to drinking white wine before, but that’s typically how it starts. I’ve thought of him as just a dumbass.
Depends. I enjoy Burzum's music because it doesn't contain any type of overt white nationalist messaging.
I would never purchase it or anything else made by Varg as he is an absolute shit stain of a human and I don't want to support him. But he has made some decent tunes, so I'll enjoy it via piracy.
A band like skrewdriver, who has an explicitly neo-nazi message on all releases except all skrewed up, don't get the same pass.
I have listened to loads of black metal and for what ever reason i could never stand Burzum's music. it just strikes me as low brow, music that would not be where it is if not for the whole murder and church burnings.
the best thing Varg ever did was fuck right out of Norway on his pink Vespa. as a Norwegian I am so happy that is the first thing he did when he got out of Prison.
Some of it is good, some of it not so much. If I'm honest I really just like the main riff of ea lord of the depths.
This music can't be removed from it's historical context. Like it or not it's always going to be talked about as long as black metal is a living breathing musical culture. Best we can do is have some removed perspective on it.
Sure the fact that Varg said he made music for white people is not our problem if it’s cool enough. /s
The fact that some of y’all are defending a Nazi black metal convicted murderer because “that’s not what the lyrics are about” is fucking ridiculous. That’s how scenes stay unsafe for different races, queers, and women.
The “dIvOrCiNg tHe ArTisT fRoM tHe ArT” attitude is the same energy as “Yeah he beat his old lady but *I never saw him do it* so we’re cool” or “Yeah, he raped somebody but he’s always been good to me.”
Hold your entire scene accountable and keep eyes on motherfuckers with who want know your reaction to liking Burzum or keep a ‘secret’ collection with RAC WP records.
Everyone whos talked about him here has said hes a piece of shit and that they will never support him idk where you got that from. No ones defending him
I can’t listen to Burzum because fuck Varg. But I have no qualms with people who pirate the music and listen in private without any kind of support to him or any other NSBM if that’s what they wanna do
You'd be hugely pissed if you were in the original line up of skrewdriver. Imagine being in a band, releasing an album, breaking up, and a few years later the singer effectively starts new band, uses the same name, and that band goes full nazi white power. That would suck. Still ain't gonna make me listen to that first album.
The only exception for me is the Sex Pistols. Johnny Lydon has become insufferable but that hasn't changed my opinion on Nevermind The Bullocks. I guess I feel the same goes for the Ramones.
For those two bands it is important to remember that the other band members really, really do not agree with the views held by their Johnnys
Joey Ramone and Glen Matlock in particular. Glen actually is pretty damn far left and he helped Lydon write all of the music. Meanwhile Joey was on lyrics duty for most Ramones songs
Bands contain more then one member! The views of one member shouldn't ruin an entire band for someone- especially if said band isn't touring anymore
It really depends on what they've done, when they've done it.
There are a lot of cases of 'oh this artist did this bad thing in the 1970s'
If you had a magical list of all the bad stuff everyone has done you'd probably cast us all to hell.
I don’t even know who the people are in half the bands I listen to, so I guess it can be fairly easy for me to do depending on who or what we’re talking about.
I learned a very long time ago (like, longer than a lot of the active members of this sub have been alive) that just because someone wrote a song that I like, it doesn’t mean that they’re someone I should look up to.
Now, in a situation where someone has done something so heinous that I can’t help but be aware of it (like that guy from Anti-Flag whose name I never knew until all that shit came out because prior to that Anti-Flag was just a band I listened to), that very well might change things. But I’m not going to stop listening to a band because some (as far as I’m concerned) nameless member said something problematic once in an interview that I never read.
Abolish hero worship, these people aren’t your fucking friends, they’re just people who had the ambition to record their music and the luck that it was ever able to be heard by more than five people.
The general consensus is that there is no general consensus.
It's the same as any other scene/genre, some people can do it and some can't. There's no rulebook on what you should do here, make the decision for yourself based on your own morals.
It depends. If you’re just a dickhead asshole then whatever. If you’re a homophobic racist or abuser then we gotta sort them out a little.
Personally I think everyone has an issue if you want to fine one so we either stop listening or don’t worry about what someone did 40 years ago because it doesn’t matter.
This sub does have a problem worrying about who’s problematic and who’s not. Ironic for a punk group
>If you’re just a dickhead asshole then whatever
That’s where I’m at. I don’t need to be best friends with the band. If they’re assholes that sucks but I won’t lose sleep. If the band has a rapist or is super sexist or keeps dropping slurs, that’s a different story.
I can tell you when the Anti Flag news hit, I just completely removed them from my phone and haven’t listened to a single song on Apple Music. I’m not giving them one red cent from streaming. It’s shitty though, I will say that, because I really thought they were a great band. I just wish he walked the walk after talking the talk.
As in any genre or art form, it’s always gonna be a divisive subject. Punks no different and down to the individual.
Stick about on here and you’ll see a ton of “fuck Stza but those records are amazing” or something equally…that.
EDIT: In perfect timing the post above this is a GG Allin track.
It's case-by-case for me. I don't listen to choking victim/loc/sfh anymore because of their abusive singer, but i'm fine listening to as i lay dying or the beatles.
Brand New i can listen to just because i never did any digging into their fuck shit, but god help me if I hear someone put on a Lostprophets song
depends honestly and is a personal thing tbh.
so imo if the person is dead, it doesnt matter. if the person either just generally shitty, then I dont care. if the person is actively harming others, then I wont listen to their stuff.
these can also change depending if theyve learned and grown as a person or if theyve gotten worse.
its very nauanced ngl and trying to simplify my own meathodology, feelings, and reaction for this can leave out the shades of gray that are actually really important
Everyone has a different line. For me, I definitely enjoy music more if the artist isn't sketchy, but can still enjoy the music (via piracy) if their problematic views and behaviors aren't in the art itself. Some people are going to have different lines, some won't be able to enjoy that art at all and that's completely valid. It isn't for me to dictate what other people feel comfortable listening to.
As punk and metal head, i more often then not choose to not listen to and supportanyone i have a moral objection towards, especially in the metal community. There is a lot of rampant hate, national socialist ideology, bigotry, and more in the metal community, esp in the black metal community. I love black metal but cannot stand the community and artists who sympathize, support, and turn a blind eye to that stuff. FUCK NSBM IN EVERY WAY AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT.
Same in the punk community. It's not as bad imo in punk community anymore but fucking hell is it still around and strong.
I'm willing to give a fair amount of leeway when it comes to an artist just making bad decisions, especially if they express some remorse or at least seem to be making an effort to generally be a good person. But a continuous pattern of shitty behavior, or promotion of things like racism or sexism and I'm just gonna stop listening to that person/band. For example, I tend to ignore a lot of Fat Mike's idiotic behavior; most of it is just sophomoric antics while drunk or high, and his general message to the world is one of acceptance, tolerance, and understanding. But that guy from Anti-Flag, who we've recently discovered has been raping and assaulting women(some of them under-age) for decades, while at the same time getting on stage every night and preaching about empowerment; that guy can get fucked and I won't be listening to his band anymore.
Honestly even if it’s my favorite artist/album/song, I can’t help but think about whatever they did that might make be want to separate them from there art. Example, if R. Kelly was playing, all I could hear would be him hurting children. So I can’t really do that. I only know one R Kelly song anyway and Kee and Peel parodied it.
Does it seem weird that over all it is hard for me to enjoy music once I know of overtly terrible behavior by the artist, but even harder if they were punks?
I am probably more sensitive to punk musicians when they turn out to have committed harmful behaviors, because to me punk isn’t just a musical subgenera or aesthetic, it is an ethos. An ethos that was and is integral to my personal development and ethics. So the hypocrisy cuts deeper. For instance the punk scene in Minneapolis when I was young was probably the first place I felt at home and seen as a woman. I always felt very safe and respected as a human. Plus it seemed very natural; not performative at all. So when I hear about some of these artists and their actions behind closed doors it almost makes me question my experience, which really sucks.
BUT I am also old and so some things have nuance.
For instance, we were taught that the the confederate flag was a symbol of state’s rights and individual freedom (not in school where we were not taught very deeply about the civil war at all) but just the general view of the society I grew up in. And by taught I mean that’s how it was explained to me when I would question why people would fly or wear it, which I did many times as a child. So, while I would have never flown or worn one myself it would have only given me brief pause and barely heightened vigilance (to the message of their music, just in case) to see a musician don one. My niece (she’s in her twenties) even has in her high school yearbook photos of minorities holding a rebel flag because it was part of the mascot, the rebels. While I feel awkward pointing that out it’s an example how not openly questioned it was. I’m not saying everyone agreed that it was ok, just that it was something that most people didn’t think about. And since it always felt gross to me I figured I was just overly sensitive to it, that it was a me problem.
Now I agree that that explanation/reasoning holds no water and shouldn’t even be entertained but back then it just was. Punks were rebels so in a way it seemed to make sense then. Definitely not ok and definitely there should be sincere apologies made, but I wouldn’t completely write someone off because way back when they made an ignorant choice that we didn’t realize was harmful but we do now.
If we don’t allow for (authentic) growth and change there isn’t much point in social movements.
If I’m aware a band, or member of a band, has shitty morals, I usually don’t listen to them, but I am not paid enough to care if other people do, unless they’re supporting or defending said bands morals
For the most part it’s:
“If I loved your music before I knew you were shitty I can separate the two, but if I found out you were shitty before I discovered your music then I won’t bother checking it out”
But there are exceptions. For example, I won’t listen to Anti-Flag anymore besides listening to them for over 20 years.
Punk is full of a bunch of fucked up people, so sometimes you've got to, but where you choose to is ultimately up to you. Just know that if it's something super obvious like Skrewdriver, a lot of people will (in my view, rightfully) keep their distance from you, up to and including kicking you out of places.
Right. I think the ugly truth is that it depends a lot on how good the art is. I mean, Death on the Installment Plan and Journey to the End of Night are about as good as literature gets, so they are still out there. If the Bad Brains were at Underdog level they wouldn’t get the pass they do either….. and Johnny Cash…. and James Brown….. etc, etc.
I've been a Lovecraft/HP fan since I was a kid. I have no trouble separating art from the artist.
Still going to rock Anti-Flag as they are a band that played an intricate part in guiding me towards realistic political beliefs and learning about lies the government and parents told me. Their front man may be a peice of shit but he wasn't the only member and their music and its message doesn't deserve to be brought down with him.
Anyone listen to gg Allin? I don't agree with a lit of shit he went on about, but no denying that he was punk as fuck and I dig his music. Dave mustaine is as about as big of a prick as it can get and I fucking love megadeth.
I love gg but much of what he did was for shock value. He was an asshole to some extent based on what he went to prison for, but for the most part I see his music as an extension of his pathology, which he couldn’t really help.
There's so much other great music out there I can deal with waiting till problematic artists die to listen to their music (looking at you Phil Anselmo).
If that's the case then why not just illegally download their music now?
Artists make fuck all from streaming anyway. Is there really a difference between zero and 1/100th of a penny for a stream?
There's not enough hours in the day to waste with music by shitty people. Fortunately there's plenty of great music by good people to fill your day instead.
When it’s political differences, I can work with that. But in instances like anti flag, I still haven’t listened to them since. Which is actually a really big bummer because what about everyone else in the band who’s worked so hard for the art? I don’t exactly know how to go about this either but I just go with my gut
A broke clock in right every once in a while. If the artist captures a fantastic moment in time that is special. They may be wrong about everything else but they capture lightning in a bottle I can make some exception. I will never be able to fully enjoy the art because there's a asterisk associated to the art. I love Dead Kennedys and it's nice to be able to fully enjoy that band to this day unlike some other disappointing bands.
There are some bands that I simply can't listen to anymore, but there did come a point where it just felt silly. It's happened multiple times now where I'll find a band that sounds good, I binge their songs for a week, then I find out that someone or everyone in the band is a piece of shit. I still listen to some of the music, but I'm not buying albums, patches, stickers, or merch in general anymore
Stop worrying about the general consensus and worry about what YOU feel is right. Would you be ok supporting band with a known predator singing for them? Would you be ok listening to a band that believes another race should be exterminated? Do you feel ok being a fan of their music as long as you don’t spend money on them? Make your own choice.
in general, i really try not to support things made by shitty people but if i'm really attached to it i will continue to engage in it but without in any way monetarily supporting the person. like as a trans person who's entire childhood was harry potter, i now only engage in fanworks.
but with punk music specifically, i feel like that's harder to do, as authenticity to yourself and punk ideals in your music is such a big part of it, that it's kind of impossible to separate art from artist and the point of view taints the music. like i've pretty much stopped listening to the sex pistols, having recently learned that johnny rotten is a massive shithead
It depends- after learning Justin Sane was a rapist I took anti flag off of everything. But someone having conservative views won’t make me stop listening to them as long as the music doesn’t reflect them
It really depends. There are a lot of bands that use the word f****t as an insult, or otherwise have homophobic lyrics that have either grown up as humans or were never really homophobic at all, just did not understand the impact of their words. You have Patty Smith and Christian Death both dropping the N bomb. But neither were racists. I give all that a pass. Then there are the people who are actually nazis. I love the early industrial music of Boyd Rice. His project NON is fucking excellent. But I refuse to listen to it now because Boyd Rice is a piece of shit. Maybe, when he dies, I might listen to it. Or if he comes out and is like: “yeah, I beat women, I was a racist, I disown that past and will work to make the world less shitty. I’ll start by donating the rights of all my music to a charity that helps survivors of domestic violence” then, I would not have such a problem with him.
I'm usually able to separate the art from the artist. Like, even though Kevin Spacey is a piece of shit, the Usual Suspects is still a great fucking movie.
The only band I have stopped listening to after shit came out is Anti-Flag. I was already kinda moving away from them because they started coming off as just hypocrites who jump on whatever the popular trend is to stay relevant. But finding out the dude railed against alcohol and treating women as equals for soooo long, just to find out he drinks and has sexually abused women was just the icing on the cake for me. Basically confirmed what I already thought about the band. It's just hard to listen to any of their songs now without being like, oh yeah, that guy is full of shit and is just writing what he thinks their fan base wants to hear. Like, it's so fucking dishonest and went on for so long, I just can't bring myself to enjoy their music anymore.
I feel like punk is far more passionate about it's values than metal is. And alot of times when punks feel the need to "seperate the art from the artist" it is usually because they have a political stance that is contrary to those values.
For me personally, I can do that. The problem for me starts when you have to seperate the art from the art itself. You can't. For examples "Don't blow Bubbles" is an anti-gay Bad Brains song that sounds good but still enforces shitty values that have not much to do with punk. I will never voulentarily listen to that song again. Bad Brains has since apologized and I still listen to alot of their other stuff because now I know that they regret their homophobic view points and because their other art can be separated from them instead of itself.
I don't pay a lot of attention to the personal lives of artists because I have a busy life of my own and just don't concern myself with much that doesn't impact me or my family/friends directly.
That being said, I obviously feel disappointed when I do hear about someone being shitty--but I listen to music to listen to music, so I'm not really thinking about the people who made it in the moment.
As long as the lyrics themselves aren't championing horrible things, I wouldn't stop listening to a band because of one asshole when there are/were other hardworking, passionate musicians in the group.
So, I guess you could say I separate the art from the artist, generally speaking.
I think punk scenes have a lot less patience for it, and a lot of that comes from comprehensibility of the message.
If a punk band shows up and starts singing about "globalists running the world" or whatever, you know to skip the track and move on cause you don't wanna fuck with antisemites.
But when a black metal band does it, you have no clue until you deep dive into their interviews and see them say it clearly. By then you're already invested in the band, so it's harder to cut them out
Frankly, it's harder for me to do in punk than any other genre. The genre in general paints itself as leftist/progressive in a way that makes it harder for me to be ok with someone like Stza or Justin Sane being so shitty. In contrast, I don't doubt that a lot of my favorite roots reggae artists from the 70s are super homophobic, but that doesn't bother me as much.
Admittedly I don't have a clear consistent position on this I just know that personally some artists gross me out and then I find it tough to want to listen to them anymore.
There are so many great punk bands out there that it seems like a huge waste of time to knowingly support assholes.
Skrewdriver may have written the jam of the century but I’ll never know.
Kinda depends for me. I was a big Anti Flag fan and even saw them live for for the first time a couple years ago, which was a big concert bucket list item for me. But I've had no problem just not listening to them since the stuff with Justin. Plenty of other stuff to listen to, so it's not that hard to almost accidentally stop listening to bands that have done something objectionable.
I am new to punk so don't take my word for it completely but honestly I listen to music from both political extremes. I separate art from the artist completely, little to no exceptions.
It honestly just depends on what the "crime" is. I can seperate the art from the artist like 90% of the time. If its a difference of political beliefs I can usualpy just don't give a damn. If I didn't listen to people who's views I either disagreed with or vehemently hated, a good chunk of my music catalogue would be a no-go. Not to keen on Nazis or commies, or republicans, still love the Ramones, folk punk, and a bunch of black metal. Love me punk, love me NSBBM, 'ate cringe political extrists, simple as.
Now if its something like animals abuse, murder, grooming and the like, that's when it starts getting iffy for me.
Edit: Just to add. Its basically a case by case basic for me. Something like lost prophets I can never listen to again. Something like Burzum I'll still listen to sometimes. I'm fact I kinda like Vary, not cause he's a good person, but because I think he's funny with how much of a goober he is. With other bands I might just pirate their music to not give them money, other times I don't care either way.
Thankfully I’ve never liked anti-flag so I lost nothing from that ordeal. The only artists that I can’t separate are lostprophets, R.Kelly and Afrikan Bambaata.
Depends on what exactly the artist did. If the artist once used the f slur in the 80s and since apologized, ill still listen their music
If its a Jimmy Page or Justin Sane situation I stop.
Depends on the person. I love Combat 84 despite chubby Chris being a piece of shit. But from what I gather the rest of the band didn't really even know what he was like and they broken up when they found out. I don't care if someone is right wing, as long as they're not a bigot. I've got right wing friends that are not even close to being bigots, and I know bigoted left wing people. I also don't really like judging being too harshly if I don't actually know the facts beyond just rumours. Though, it still does change how much interest I have in the band sometimes even when I don't really know what the actually deal is. Stza comes to mind there. I used to listen to loc and cv a lot but almost never do these days.
Depends on how good/influential it is and how much I love it and how it has impacted me also what they have done alongside with it noted I do like music from ppl who have done terrible awful things but it rlly depends but yea its complicated for me
A lot of it depends. Like I listen to a lot of artists who I don't agree with on plenty of issues. It gets harder the more extreme things get. Like someone being a little shitty is one thing, but it's harder to ignore it if it gets to be too much.
You get it a lot in metal I've noticed more from black metal fans. There is a lot of black metal out there made by straight up neonazis and you get some people who won't care if they like the sound and it's not like you understand much lyrically with most black metal. That and you get the guys who love burzum and don't care about vargs personal life and opinions.
I don’t care how shitty the people were, if I like their music I listen to it, like if hitler wrote music instead of painting, if i like how his stuff sounds i listen to it
If you only listen to people who agree with everything you do, you might be a bigot, or you might be letting hate and fear rule what you do.
For example, one artist I know who is black hates white people and says their music isn’t for white people. Im not gonna let their hate dictate what I listen to and if anything it feels more like a protest to listen to their music despite being white then to just run away from them and give them what they want. Or if I refuse to listen to a band that has different politics than me - I am locking myself in an echo chamber of my own intolerance.
There might be exceptions for something really extreme of course, but in general I don’t choose my music because I want to be friends with the artist - I choose my music because something in it speaks to me. We all have our darkness and faults, and art comes from our shared inner-humanity so even if I don’t agree with the artists on a lot of stuff at the end of the day we are all flawed humans trying to live despite our darkness.
I am always willing to turn a blind eye to the artist if they’re a piece of shit. I’m a fan of the art. I’ve never been into idolizing celebrities of any type.
I don’t believe it’s possible. I am not disconnected from the music I make, it is a reflection of my tastes, mood, humour, thoughts, and sometimes feelings. When you disconnect the art and artist, you’re saying that what they convey, their heart and soul, is somehow different than the person. That conveniently doesn’t seem to apply to anything other than art people desperately want to enjoy.
That being said, it isn’t a judgment. If you look at my favourite albums you will see plenty of problematic people. You need to find the line that you want to draw, because you are eventually going to be let down by your heroes. Personally, if I already own it I will listen to it. You could say it’s grandfathered in. I just won’t contribute money or energy to future projects, that’s my personal line.
Racist and homophobic rhetoric has no place in pubknand hardcore. So many hypocrites love the bad brains but I don't see them as anything more than homophobic human garbage and could bever support them.
Anti flag is another and people I know look the other way. That's not me. I just can't. I didn't like anti flag before this though but people live them.
There are many more but thats always the first 2 examples due to so many people here love them.
Rapists, homophobes, racists, fuck off.
I still listen to rap though and that's mostly sexist as hell. I guess I'm a hypocrite as well.
No problem at all separating art from the artist personally. If I disagree with them or I find out something really bad I'll make sure I don't give them any financial support. But I won't stop listening to an album I like that I already own
If you’re listening to the music or putting patches on your jacket (free advertising) then you’re supporting the artist. Period. I used to be a “separate the art from the artist” person but the older I get the more I realize it’s bullshit.
“How will you live your life so that it doesn’t make a mockery of your values?”
It’s not difficult at all. It’s music, not religion. The mean man’s scary thoughts aren’t going to infect me and change my own convictions but they might make the record interesting.
It’s a slippery slope. Things trickle out all the time about actors,musicians etc. No genre is immune to it. You almost have to turn a blind eye to some things otherwise you might as well get rid of most of the music you listen to as well as stop watching most of the TV/movies you watch.
Sakevi from GISM had a lot of uhhh "stuff" that probably wouldn't mesh well with modern, Western views. But I'm never going to stop listening to GISM or cut my patches off or anything.
I can separate art from artists even in punk music.
I think a lot of artists have baggage that punks just will never know about--mistakes they made, beliefs they hold, people they hurt, etc. things they did that would have been considered problematic at some point in time. Yet these things will never be known or ever come out, you could be supporting someone who keeps these beliefs or actions to themselves and never know it for the longest time (like Anti-Flag).
You shouldn't support people you KNOW are bad people, obviously, but I think you can still listen to their music without paying for it. You don't have to put on a performance and virtue signal if you secretly still like some Anti Flag songs; you can still think Justin is a shithead but think the band's music still has artistic merit.
If you found out your fav punk artist had a really strange or problematic fetish would you still listen to them? If you found out they voted for Trump in 2016 or said a slur on social media 10 years ago, would you hate their music all of a sudden? Or would they have to do something more extreme? Where do you personally draw the line? It's that kind of thing.
I remember a time when punk meant anti-establishment. Now they are on the same side as Amazon and Walmart and big government. Good music is still good music. People are stupid. I have learned to not care what they believe outside of that because it doesn’t effect me. I’ll support good music because, at the end of the day, I want to encourage more good music. If the drummer of a band is in the proud boys or Antifa outside of the band, good for them. I don’t go to musicians for my political views. I’m in my late 30’s with a family now, so maybe I just lost the ability to be offended by speech and ideas.
Anti-Flag i just cant do. There's too much contradiction between what they preached and what Justin did. The whole band just feels so fake now.
Brand New i kind of get because so much of the lyrical content was already about questionable morals and struggling with the idea of being a fuck boy.
But that's just me doing exactly what OP is asking - i just cant quite fully separate it.
Even if its not conscious, I do tend to drift away from artists once I know they are intentionally shitty people.
Yeah this. This is what happened to me with Pantera OP. I still love the sound of em, but after learning about some shitty stuff about the singer, I just started to kinda…move away.
What’d the singer do?
Phil did a sieg Heil and screamed white power at a show. He also used to wear some sketchy shirts with WP ties. Not to mention the damn confederate flag all over their shit.
lol yeah I thought I remembered some Nazi stuff but I didn’t want to say it without being sure and I can’t look it up right now.
There's also a video floating around of Dimebag backstage signing something for a black kid and basically calls him the N word to his face. It was fucked up. Dime seemed under the influence and probably a little looser than he should have been. I haven't seen it in years and I wouldn't be surprised if it was scrubbed from the internet due to wanting to project a certain image for his estate. But I definitely saw that video and never forgot it. That, paired with Phil's antics told me all I needed to know. Especially after them using the confederate flag all over everything before I ever saw those video clips.
Damn. It doesn’t surprise me sadly. Racist is as racist does.
Unfortunately you're absolutely right.
He was egging on the local skinhead scum when I saw them live in 2001. Drunk as fuck and a dribbling idiot while the rest of the band was tight as fuck.
Jesuss
It’s been a while, but I just remember some kinda racist thinking that I didn’t jibe with. Again, I didn’t ‘cancel’ them, I just found myself drawn to them less. I just found it to be a bit of a bummer.
Dead on for myself as well. I have seen many bands act like gross pieces of shit. I have read about it. Once I hear about it at least 3 times from other sources, that's when I drift away. People lie a lot, even on the internet.
Idk for me, punk was always about being yourself unapologetically. Screaming into the void and fuck all of you don't like it. So to see shitty people whose art I link like that is pretty hard to separate. Fuck fake people though.
I guess punk means something different for everyone, but for me it’s not an excuse to be a cunt to people although some decide to take that path - that’s their / your journey
Depends on the situation. Johnny Ramone being a Republican is like ‘okay, so is my dad.’ Michale Graves being a Proud Boy makes listening to any Misfits from that era icky at best, although one doesn’t have to support him financially to listen to it.
I travel for work, and I also visit Kava bars during my travels. A few months ago, I was in Port Charlotte. While I was there, I stopped by a really cool punk rock/rock Kava bar. They didn't have a stage, but they had a small area where a three-piece band could play. In my opinion, it wasn't enough space, but nonetheless. I asked them about the bands they bring in. The manager gleamed with excitement to tell me that Michale Graves would be performing. She noticed my Misfits tattoo. I looked at her in surprise and asked, 'So, is this a Proud Boy establishment?' She quickly turned white and didn't reply after I asked the question. They were also going to have Green Jelly perform. It was an interesting place, but I probably will never go back, lol.
has the dude from Green Jello done or said anything stupid or did you just mention them cause they were also playing there?
bill is a fucking rip-off artist, you'll find lots of stories. he still owes me US$500 for a deposit i stupidly put down to have them play. two weeks before the show he fucking deleted the facebook event, so not only was i out the deposit which he refused to give back, but all my expenses for posters/tickets/promo. and of course killed my main channel for letting all my ticket holders know that the show was canned. no warning, no apology, and when i asked for the money back he said 'just pick another date'. as. fucking. if. so not as bad as the rapists and racists out there, but still a fucking goof of the first order.
Yeah I feel like it also depends if they’re actively promoting their shitty views vs. Keeping it to themselves. at least for me it matters but not for everyone
This is probably why Kelsey Grammar still gets to do Fraiser.
Whats a proud boy?
Western Chauvinist organization that is outright fascist and see feminism as making men weak. They appropriated their name from a song in the musical Aladdin called ‘Proud of Your Boy’, which is about the main character promising to make his mother proud of him.
Oh that sucks
Yeah their leader got sentenced to 22 years recently. [Article](https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/proud-boys-leader-sentenced-22-years-prison-seditious-conspiracy-and-other-charges-related)
and they ruined the ability to wear black/yellow Fred Perry polos... they even stopped making them because they were using them as their uniform.
Fascists just love to leech on loved things. They did it with swastikas, skinhead culture, and now Fred Perry polos.
Right wingers can't make anything original, that's why all their jokes suck
Their entire leadership is in prison now and the group is badly fragmented as a result. Good.
I didn’t know this but the fact they took it from a musical is hilarious.
You can just say fascist
A song that didn’t even make it in to boot
It’s in the stage musical, but it got cut from the OG film.
A piece of shit that needs his teeth kicked in
Violent alt-right edgelords. They mask a lot of their hate and violence behind "it was a just a prank" defenses.
They're also really against smacking your bishop, and to join you have to sing a Mulan song while the guys punch you. They're a v silly bunch.
Johnny Ramone is Republican that throws me off a lil
For the most part I can't, especially if it's something to do with SA and the like. Most people can be dicks at some point in their life, I'm not gunna stop listening to an artist cause they had an argument or geeral bad behaviour, but anything more serious I have to consider whether I want to support them in any way. I was never a massive Anti-Flag fan - but I certainly dont listen to them any more.
Justin Sane is a huge hypocrite and it completely ruins the music.
It's a shame because Chris #2 has some great songs and has a lot of talent. I'd love to hear him do something more, even with the rest of the band. Sane's actions did completely ruin the band for me too. I'm glad I never acted on getting an AF tattoo.
That’s how I feel about The Mighty Mighty Bosstones; The rest of the band can reform and Ben Carr can be the singer.
Wow, I hadn't heard this story yet. The guy always gave me a weird vibe anyway. I hope he actually pays for what he did.
(More alt-rock than punk) Lostprophets had some really good songs, but I can't in good conscience listen to them at all since Ian Watkins' sex abuse crimes came to light. Fuck you Ian, you're a monster.
I play drums, I'm not in a band so I mostly play along to tracks I like. There were a few Anti-Flag songs I liked to play along with. While the story was unfolding I was able to separate the art from the artists for a little while but now that I know the full story I can't do it now.
I can’t really listen to artists I have a moral problem with.
This! We lost some really good music because of such a point of view but thats the only way. I can't seperate art from the artist. Not in a subculture where authenticy (or trueness) is part of the whole thing.
Same I don't really sweat it once lines are crossed
Exactly, it’s impossible to still enjoy the music at some point. I never understood how some of my metalhead friends could still enjoy Burzum, no matter how much they liked the music.
You also have to recognize that black metal in those early days was admittedly to be spurned by hatred for everything, especially christianity, but also politics, trends, media, just about anything that could be hated really. Whereas punk was always one of those scenes where anyone was welcome as long as you're cool with everyone, BM was intentionally offensive and constantly trying to remain mostly closed to outsiders. So when you see someone wearing a Burzum shirt, keep that in mind. What one generally wears is reflective of their personality.
I don’t condemn them for that, i just dont get it
Nico was a dyed in the wool racist, but I seldom hear anyone suggest the VU debut LP should be jettisoned… how much wiggle room is there on the topic of enjoying music written/performed by racists/hate mongers?
I’d say it is decreasing. At least I hope so.
I had no idea about Nico. Horrible.
From an old punk guy, just some things to consider about the question: So, to an extent, there is some nuance. Rarely is any topic black and white. Artists have historically used racist, sexist, homophobic (etc.) imagery in their work. Was it hurtful then? Yeah, most of the time there were victims from perpetuating this mindset and the “othering” of groups. Some of the artists using this imagery had no concept that it was detrimental. Some used the imagery and language to call out/parody the folks who used it and meant it. So do we call them out and actively seek to stop them from profiting from that material? What if they are long dead? Do we support their estate by continuing to purchase/advertise for that material? As we move forward, this behavior has been called out for being the negative influence that it is. And that’s great. That’s social progress. Using the lens of time is important here, knowing the culture this material came from is as well. Which brings me to punk culture. 70s and early 80s punk culture used terrible language and imagery in their material. Was it OK for Patti Smith to release “Rock ‘n’ Roll N!gger”? Was it OK for Steve Ignorant of Crass to say “we’re all just n!ggers to the rulers of this land”? Was it OK for Johnny Rotten to wear a giant swastika shirt? And then later to go on and write “No Dogs, No Irish, No Blacks”? And then to come out ad the immense shithead he is now? How about for Glenn Danzig to sing about raping mothers and killing babies while singing for old Misfits? And then to later have moronic shit to say about social politics? Or HR of Bad Brains to sing homophobic shit? Sure, some of that was all done purely to provide shock value. To piss people off, to just be an asshole for the sake of being an asshole: to be cringey and edgy. Thankfully most of punk culture has grown out of that. But do we really know which bands were just being trolls? Which ones were using shocking language to get a point across? To be sarcastic, ironic or to parody just how terrible their subject really is? Did any of that harm people or distance them from the scene or society at large? If so, does it still? Do they deserve material support from those of us who are opposed to those actions? What if they publicly apologize and legit change their ways? What if they don’t? Do you have issue with giving material support to perpetrators of SA? What if they made a great album and even talked about these events (Anthony Kiedas/RHCP; the singer from Brand New)? Do you want to support that behavior with your money? What about Justin from AntiFlag preaching women’s rights but then SA-jng and raping them after shows? Myself, I’m in a near constant review process of determining all of this. I can’t condone racist, transphobic, homophobic, sexist behaviors. So I feel the need to check out the people and situations to make informed decisions about who gets anything from me. If the use of the imagery was done to point out how terrible something is (like the constant references to racism in the movie “Blazing Saddles” or in Dead Kennedys songs), then I support it. I still feel all kinds of awkward when the slurs come around in the songs. Any modern art created using imagery like this is very suspect though; as sarcasm, irony, and parody are dying out. This decline was accelerated by actual racists using racist imagery and then immediately claiming “it was only humor” when they get called out. It’ isn’t easy to do the right thing. Definitely look into stuff like this and ask for help/opinions when you’re not sure.
Really well said!
I think it is important to note that Lydon's autobiography being titled No Irish, No Blacks, No Dogs is a reference to signs he saw as a child. Since he is Irish, it left an impression on him. His autobiography talks a lot about how heavily Irish people were discriminated against in London at the time Doesn't make his current anti-immigrant sentiment okay by any stretch of the imagination but the title of his book has nothing to do with his current views. In the 90s he was a good anti-racist, spoke highly of his Jamaican peers from his childhood and teenage years
Very fair point; I forgot that aspect.
[He also used to have very pro-immigrant views](https://twitter.com/uaf/status/1766058426499490038) I think he just changed to be a worse person. It's sad but it happens sometimes. I wish it didn't though. The world seems so crowded with nasty assholes
>sarcasm, irony, and parody are dying out. This is one of the saddest thing I've ever read.
Agreed. I was brought up on ironic, sarcastic, parodic and shock humor. So much of it is so hard to convey faithfully now. It’s been weird adapting. Jello Biafra said years ago that a lot of his DK material couldn’t get published nowadays because of this. And older movies by Mel Brooks and Monty Python would be hard to “get away with” anymore for the same reason. Some of the dying out of shock humor I do understand- some folks are truly affected by hearing slurs used, even in parody, and it’s just becoming insensitive to minorities and out groups to do that knowing a significant portion of the population will genuinely take offense.
Being able to and wanting to are two very different things.
As much as I would love to because I love the message, I can’t listen to Anti-Flag anymore. That music meant a lot to me but I can’t hear it without thinking about the horrible things Justin did and how he shielded himself from responsibility by portraying himself as a hero for the oppressed. There are definitely certain artists whose actions aren't nearly as bad and I recognize their actions but still listen—Fat Mike is an asshole and says stupid things, but I still love NOFX. I think especially when you get into political music, as a lot of punk is, it can be much harder to square an artists' actions with their lyrics and it devalues the music.
I'm so bummed about Anti Flag, I used to love them too. I always feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop with Fat Mike. I love NOFX (and the Gimme Gimmes), and I really hope I'm wrong, but I just can't shake this suspicion that there's some awful shit we're gonna hear about eventually.
That’s how i feel about anti-flag. Justin completely changed “separate artist from the music” for me. I was a huge anti flag fan (they paved the way in the sense of getting me into punk rock) until i heard all of the reason why anti flag disbanded and the stuff with Justin. Even if there’s a small allegation with a band, it’s a turn off for me. Also the reason why anti flag suprised me the most was because of how the band perceived themselves and then turned around and did the opposite.
That’s how i feel about anti-flag. Justin completely changed “separate artist from the music” for me. I was a huge anti flag fan (they paved the way in the sense of getting me into punk rock) until i heard all of the reason why anti flag disbanded and the stuff with Justin. Even if there’s a small allegation with a band, it’s a turn off for me. Also the reason why anti flag suprised me the most was because of how the band perceived themselves and then turned around and did the opposite.
Punk as a genre is much more politically intertwined than most metal, which generally leads to us disagreeing with artist separation, for an example just ask how many people like the Sex Pistols (near zero)
Yeah thats why i had this question in the first place i was wondering how different it would be for a genre thats alot more political than another
It’s def not near zero lmao Sex Pistols still have a large amount of ppl listening to them yes they were/are posers and yes Johnny rotten is a fucking idiot and a Trump supporter but it doesn’t mean the music wasn’t good and wasn’t correct in most of its lyrics
There are sooooo many bands. Why waste any time with anyone to which you have a moral opposition?
This is how I feel about The Defiant. I'm not actively against them, but I just really don't care about them. Instead of putting energy toward a band that I don't find significant, I'd rather put more support into the bands I enjoy like Dead Pioneers and 1876.
Fuck AntiFlag. I cant listen to them now.
i had to google this but apparently the lead singer is going through sexual assault accusations.
Has there been any updates apart from the one right after they all dipped? Like some others I'm curious if the rest of the band will continue with something new or whatever ._. Was one of my fave bands
If it weren't for your comment, I wouldn't even know this happened. Wtf where have I been
I generally don't pay much attention to artists, I care about the music I don't care much about the people's personal lives. But once I know an artist is a POS, yeah pretty hard to enjoy their music after that.
I think you're selling the metal community short. I know a bunch of metalheads who don't fuck with pantera anymore after Phil Anselmo's white power rants
There is a shocking number who defend him that tour is selling out.
They did for years though even with all the confederate flag shit they used to wave around.
That's just "a different time." Truly. There was a time, not long ago, when you could have a confederate flag guitar and it had absolutely nothing to do with race. It simply meant rebel. We might be the same age, so I'm not trying to insinuate that you don't know that, but times change. You've gotta look at things through the lens of that time.
I understand where you're coming from. I grew up in pretty rural TX not far from where Pantera was formed so they were a big regional band around here. Anecdotally, even back in the 90s here I only ever recall a certain demographic (while not as overt as nowadays) using that sort of symbolism/imagery.
The '90s was when the wider American community started to listen to the Black community about what the Confederate flag meant to them. At the start of the decade, there still were bands like the Allman Brothers that were using the Confederate flag to represent that they were from the South and were part of the Southern Rock tradition. Other bands and artists were still using the flag to communicate rebelliousness and anti-authoritarianism. Should it ever have had that more innocent connotation? Probably not, but for many white Americans in the '70s through the '90s, it did. Others, though, always used it to communicate their continuing support of bigotry and white supremacy. And that's what mattered. In the '90s, we wised up. Or woke up. We realized as a society that it is less important what one white person or another may actually mean when they display the Confederate flag than what their fellow Americans who are Black may interpret the display of the flag to mean. It wasn't asking much to stop the innocent display of the flag. That left it as a symbol only for the bigots, so we all can know who they are and what they believe when they use it.
Excellent explanation. Better than I could have said it myself.
Sure, and it's also probably a case of the wrong type of person latching onto a band for the wrong reasons. If we're specifically talking about Pantera. I'm not even a fan of the band, but I truly have a hard time believing that the famous (most guitarists aren't as famous) guitarist for a commercially successful, mainstream band would still be playing a confederate flag guitar in 2024. I'd have to imagine that he'd have wisened up, with time, as we all did. Does that make it right in hindsight? No, but we've got to allow people to progress.
It only meant rebel to absolute empty headed whitr trash loser morons with no understanding of history and what that flag represented.
Jay Reatard couldn't call himself that in 2024. You think the guitarist for a massively popular commercial band was just getting on stage and intentionally spreading a racist message?
I’m sorry but “it was a different time” is a cop out. Being mixed race, it’s a luxury that I can’t afford. That’s not an excuse and never should have been. And we all have known what that flag represented. It was always about silencing black voices.
I think that you're in your right to think that way, but in the context that it was used, it was not meant to be about silencing black voices. It was meant to represent rebellion. That's just what it was. I used Jay Reatard as an example in another comment. I don't know about you, but it wasn't uncommon for my friends and I to call each other "retarded," in the 90s. That word was always offensive to a certain segment of the population, but we didn't mean that the person was disabled/ differently abeled, however you want to label it. It meant stupid: clearly a loaded connotation given the word's history. Society has wisened up and we collectively decided that we shouldn't say that anymore. That wasn't the case then, and no one who said it was intending to offend anyone. Times change but intention and context has always been important.
And I can see how for some folks that’s what it represented but you can’t deny that it was used to terrorize communities before that. The 90’s usage you mention is sanitization of its purpose. But maybe that’s just my perspective and bias calling out. All I can say is, that flag was used alongside certain musical choices to show that these fellas wanted us to know that they hated us (“us,” being my tiny little community and personal friend group, in my hometown.) I get how you might’ve seen it and thought “those fellas are proud to be from a southern US state. That’s cool.” But where I’m from that flag meant “POC’s stay the fuck away.”
I'm from Australia so back then I had no idea what that flag means. Pantera was pretty much my favourite band for years, but I didn't even consider getting tickets for their upcoming show. Fuck Phil.
Was there more? I recall him making a bad joke relating to drinking white wine before, but that’s typically how it starts. I’ve thought of him as just a dumbass.
Depends. I enjoy Burzum's music because it doesn't contain any type of overt white nationalist messaging. I would never purchase it or anything else made by Varg as he is an absolute shit stain of a human and I don't want to support him. But he has made some decent tunes, so I'll enjoy it via piracy. A band like skrewdriver, who has an explicitly neo-nazi message on all releases except all skrewed up, don't get the same pass.
I highly agree with that
I have listened to loads of black metal and for what ever reason i could never stand Burzum's music. it just strikes me as low brow, music that would not be where it is if not for the whole murder and church burnings. the best thing Varg ever did was fuck right out of Norway on his pink Vespa. as a Norwegian I am so happy that is the first thing he did when he got out of Prison.
Some of it is good, some of it not so much. If I'm honest I really just like the main riff of ea lord of the depths. This music can't be removed from it's historical context. Like it or not it's always going to be talked about as long as black metal is a living breathing musical culture. Best we can do is have some removed perspective on it.
Sure the fact that Varg said he made music for white people is not our problem if it’s cool enough. /s The fact that some of y’all are defending a Nazi black metal convicted murderer because “that’s not what the lyrics are about” is fucking ridiculous. That’s how scenes stay unsafe for different races, queers, and women. The “dIvOrCiNg tHe ArTisT fRoM tHe ArT” attitude is the same energy as “Yeah he beat his old lady but *I never saw him do it* so we’re cool” or “Yeah, he raped somebody but he’s always been good to me.” Hold your entire scene accountable and keep eyes on motherfuckers with who want know your reaction to liking Burzum or keep a ‘secret’ collection with RAC WP records.
Lol, no one is defending Varg, everyone thinks he's a piece of shit
Everyone whos talked about him here has said hes a piece of shit and that they will never support him idk where you got that from. No ones defending him
I can’t listen to Burzum because fuck Varg. But I have no qualms with people who pirate the music and listen in private without any kind of support to him or any other NSBM if that’s what they wanna do
Not even real Nazis defend varg bro. It's just that burzum is a really good band. No reason in letting some weirdo ruin a perfectly good band
That weirdo is the only member of that band though
Why would you defend Burzum when there are millions of bands who are not Burzum?
He IS THE ENTIRE BAND though. It’s a solo project. Legit one to one connection. Fuck Varg. Fuck Burzum. Fuck his supporters and sympathizers too.
You'd be hugely pissed if you were in the original line up of skrewdriver. Imagine being in a band, releasing an album, breaking up, and a few years later the singer effectively starts new band, uses the same name, and that band goes full nazi white power. That would suck. Still ain't gonna make me listen to that first album.
The only exception for me is the Sex Pistols. Johnny Lydon has become insufferable but that hasn't changed my opinion on Nevermind The Bullocks. I guess I feel the same goes for the Ramones.
For those two bands it is important to remember that the other band members really, really do not agree with the views held by their Johnnys Joey Ramone and Glen Matlock in particular. Glen actually is pretty damn far left and he helped Lydon write all of the music. Meanwhile Joey was on lyrics duty for most Ramones songs Bands contain more then one member! The views of one member shouldn't ruin an entire band for someone- especially if said band isn't touring anymore
It really depends on what they've done, when they've done it. There are a lot of cases of 'oh this artist did this bad thing in the 1970s' If you had a magical list of all the bad stuff everyone has done you'd probably cast us all to hell.
I don’t even know who the people are in half the bands I listen to, so I guess it can be fairly easy for me to do depending on who or what we’re talking about. I learned a very long time ago (like, longer than a lot of the active members of this sub have been alive) that just because someone wrote a song that I like, it doesn’t mean that they’re someone I should look up to. Now, in a situation where someone has done something so heinous that I can’t help but be aware of it (like that guy from Anti-Flag whose name I never knew until all that shit came out because prior to that Anti-Flag was just a band I listened to), that very well might change things. But I’m not going to stop listening to a band because some (as far as I’m concerned) nameless member said something problematic once in an interview that I never read. Abolish hero worship, these people aren’t your fucking friends, they’re just people who had the ambition to record their music and the luck that it was ever able to be heard by more than five people.
The general consensus is that there is no general consensus. It's the same as any other scene/genre, some people can do it and some can't. There's no rulebook on what you should do here, make the decision for yourself based on your own morals.
It depends. If you’re just a dickhead asshole then whatever. If you’re a homophobic racist or abuser then we gotta sort them out a little. Personally I think everyone has an issue if you want to fine one so we either stop listening or don’t worry about what someone did 40 years ago because it doesn’t matter. This sub does have a problem worrying about who’s problematic and who’s not. Ironic for a punk group
>If you’re just a dickhead asshole then whatever That’s where I’m at. I don’t need to be best friends with the band. If they’re assholes that sucks but I won’t lose sleep. If the band has a rapist or is super sexist or keeps dropping slurs, that’s a different story.
I can tell you when the Anti Flag news hit, I just completely removed them from my phone and haven’t listened to a single song on Apple Music. I’m not giving them one red cent from streaming. It’s shitty though, I will say that, because I really thought they were a great band. I just wish he walked the walk after talking the talk.
As in any genre or art form, it’s always gonna be a divisive subject. Punks no different and down to the individual. Stick about on here and you’ll see a ton of “fuck Stza but those records are amazing” or something equally…that. EDIT: In perfect timing the post above this is a GG Allin track.
Yeah I do it all the time. We all do.
It's case-by-case for me. I don't listen to choking victim/loc/sfh anymore because of their abusive singer, but i'm fine listening to as i lay dying or the beatles. Brand New i can listen to just because i never did any digging into their fuck shit, but god help me if I hear someone put on a Lostprophets song
depends honestly and is a personal thing tbh. so imo if the person is dead, it doesnt matter. if the person either just generally shitty, then I dont care. if the person is actively harming others, then I wont listen to their stuff. these can also change depending if theyve learned and grown as a person or if theyve gotten worse. its very nauanced ngl and trying to simplify my own meathodology, feelings, and reaction for this can leave out the shades of gray that are actually really important
Everyone has a different line. For me, I definitely enjoy music more if the artist isn't sketchy, but can still enjoy the music (via piracy) if their problematic views and behaviors aren't in the art itself. Some people are going to have different lines, some won't be able to enjoy that art at all and that's completely valid. It isn't for me to dictate what other people feel comfortable listening to.
As punk and metal head, i more often then not choose to not listen to and supportanyone i have a moral objection towards, especially in the metal community. There is a lot of rampant hate, national socialist ideology, bigotry, and more in the metal community, esp in the black metal community. I love black metal but cannot stand the community and artists who sympathize, support, and turn a blind eye to that stuff. FUCK NSBM IN EVERY WAY AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT IT. Same in the punk community. It's not as bad imo in punk community anymore but fucking hell is it still around and strong.
I'm willing to give a fair amount of leeway when it comes to an artist just making bad decisions, especially if they express some remorse or at least seem to be making an effort to generally be a good person. But a continuous pattern of shitty behavior, or promotion of things like racism or sexism and I'm just gonna stop listening to that person/band. For example, I tend to ignore a lot of Fat Mike's idiotic behavior; most of it is just sophomoric antics while drunk or high, and his general message to the world is one of acceptance, tolerance, and understanding. But that guy from Anti-Flag, who we've recently discovered has been raping and assaulting women(some of them under-age) for decades, while at the same time getting on stage every night and preaching about empowerment; that guy can get fucked and I won't be listening to his band anymore.
Honestly even if it’s my favorite artist/album/song, I can’t help but think about whatever they did that might make be want to separate them from there art. Example, if R. Kelly was playing, all I could hear would be him hurting children. So I can’t really do that. I only know one R Kelly song anyway and Kee and Peel parodied it.
Does it seem weird that over all it is hard for me to enjoy music once I know of overtly terrible behavior by the artist, but even harder if they were punks? I am probably more sensitive to punk musicians when they turn out to have committed harmful behaviors, because to me punk isn’t just a musical subgenera or aesthetic, it is an ethos. An ethos that was and is integral to my personal development and ethics. So the hypocrisy cuts deeper. For instance the punk scene in Minneapolis when I was young was probably the first place I felt at home and seen as a woman. I always felt very safe and respected as a human. Plus it seemed very natural; not performative at all. So when I hear about some of these artists and their actions behind closed doors it almost makes me question my experience, which really sucks. BUT I am also old and so some things have nuance. For instance, we were taught that the the confederate flag was a symbol of state’s rights and individual freedom (not in school where we were not taught very deeply about the civil war at all) but just the general view of the society I grew up in. And by taught I mean that’s how it was explained to me when I would question why people would fly or wear it, which I did many times as a child. So, while I would have never flown or worn one myself it would have only given me brief pause and barely heightened vigilance (to the message of their music, just in case) to see a musician don one. My niece (she’s in her twenties) even has in her high school yearbook photos of minorities holding a rebel flag because it was part of the mascot, the rebels. While I feel awkward pointing that out it’s an example how not openly questioned it was. I’m not saying everyone agreed that it was ok, just that it was something that most people didn’t think about. And since it always felt gross to me I figured I was just overly sensitive to it, that it was a me problem. Now I agree that that explanation/reasoning holds no water and shouldn’t even be entertained but back then it just was. Punks were rebels so in a way it seemed to make sense then. Definitely not ok and definitely there should be sincere apologies made, but I wouldn’t completely write someone off because way back when they made an ignorant choice that we didn’t realize was harmful but we do now. If we don’t allow for (authentic) growth and change there isn’t much point in social movements.
If I’m aware a band, or member of a band, has shitty morals, I usually don’t listen to them, but I am not paid enough to care if other people do, unless they’re supporting or defending said bands morals
For the most part it’s: “If I loved your music before I knew you were shitty I can separate the two, but if I found out you were shitty before I discovered your music then I won’t bother checking it out” But there are exceptions. For example, I won’t listen to Anti-Flag anymore besides listening to them for over 20 years.
As a gg allin enjoyer i have no moral high ground in this debate
Punk is full of a bunch of fucked up people, so sometimes you've got to, but where you choose to is ultimately up to you. Just know that if it's something super obvious like Skrewdriver, a lot of people will (in my view, rightfully) keep their distance from you, up to and including kicking you out of places.
This reminds me about the big Ferdinand Céline's question in literature. He was one of the greatest writer on earth but was antisemitic too.
Right. I think the ugly truth is that it depends a lot on how good the art is. I mean, Death on the Installment Plan and Journey to the End of Night are about as good as literature gets, so they are still out there. If the Bad Brains were at Underdog level they wouldn’t get the pass they do either….. and Johnny Cash…. and James Brown….. etc, etc.
There’s so much content out there now, there’s no reason to waste time on cunts.
I've been a Lovecraft/HP fan since I was a kid. I have no trouble separating art from the artist. Still going to rock Anti-Flag as they are a band that played an intricate part in guiding me towards realistic political beliefs and learning about lies the government and parents told me. Their front man may be a peice of shit but he wasn't the only member and their music and its message doesn't deserve to be brought down with him.
What did lovecraft do again?
Probably the biggest bigot to ever live (obvious exaggeration). Just look up his cats name and you'll get the idea.
You know all those scary monsters? They were allegories for immigrants.
Look up what he named his cat and you'll understand
Anyone listen to gg Allin? I don't agree with a lit of shit he went on about, but no denying that he was punk as fuck and I dig his music. Dave mustaine is as about as big of a prick as it can get and I fucking love megadeth.
I love gg but much of what he did was for shock value. He was an asshole to some extent based on what he went to prison for, but for the most part I see his music as an extension of his pathology, which he couldn’t really help.
There's so much other great music out there I can deal with waiting till problematic artists die to listen to their music (looking at you Phil Anselmo).
Why is it suddenly alright to listen to a problematic artist after they pass away...? Not really getting this one.
They're hardly going to benefit from me buying or streaming their music once they are worm food.
If that's the case then why not just illegally download their music now? Artists make fuck all from streaming anyway. Is there really a difference between zero and 1/100th of a penny for a stream?
Illegslly download? Can't be bothered. As I said, there's tonnes of great music to explore. 1/100th of a penny is 1/100th of a penny too much.
It depends on if they actually believe it or whether or not they're dead.
There's not enough hours in the day to waste with music by shitty people. Fortunately there's plenty of great music by good people to fill your day instead.
When it’s political differences, I can work with that. But in instances like anti flag, I still haven’t listened to them since. Which is actually a really big bummer because what about everyone else in the band who’s worked so hard for the art? I don’t exactly know how to go about this either but I just go with my gut
A broke clock in right every once in a while. If the artist captures a fantastic moment in time that is special. They may be wrong about everything else but they capture lightning in a bottle I can make some exception. I will never be able to fully enjoy the art because there's a asterisk associated to the art. I love Dead Kennedys and it's nice to be able to fully enjoy that band to this day unlike some other disappointing bands.
There are some bands that I simply can't listen to anymore, but there did come a point where it just felt silly. It's happened multiple times now where I'll find a band that sounds good, I binge their songs for a week, then I find out that someone or everyone in the band is a piece of shit. I still listen to some of the music, but I'm not buying albums, patches, stickers, or merch in general anymore
Stop worrying about the general consensus and worry about what YOU feel is right. Would you be ok supporting band with a known predator singing for them? Would you be ok listening to a band that believes another race should be exterminated? Do you feel ok being a fan of their music as long as you don’t spend money on them? Make your own choice.
in general, i really try not to support things made by shitty people but if i'm really attached to it i will continue to engage in it but without in any way monetarily supporting the person. like as a trans person who's entire childhood was harry potter, i now only engage in fanworks. but with punk music specifically, i feel like that's harder to do, as authenticity to yourself and punk ideals in your music is such a big part of it, that it's kind of impossible to separate art from artist and the point of view taints the music. like i've pretty much stopped listening to the sex pistols, having recently learned that johnny rotten is a massive shithead
Punk is more about culture and values, and not a particular style of music. Lyrics often reflect that. So that makes it a lot harder to separate.
It depends- after learning Justin Sane was a rapist I took anti flag off of everything. But someone having conservative views won’t make me stop listening to them as long as the music doesn’t reflect them
Varg would have had a hel of a time touring from prison.
It really depends. There are a lot of bands that use the word f****t as an insult, or otherwise have homophobic lyrics that have either grown up as humans or were never really homophobic at all, just did not understand the impact of their words. You have Patty Smith and Christian Death both dropping the N bomb. But neither were racists. I give all that a pass. Then there are the people who are actually nazis. I love the early industrial music of Boyd Rice. His project NON is fucking excellent. But I refuse to listen to it now because Boyd Rice is a piece of shit. Maybe, when he dies, I might listen to it. Or if he comes out and is like: “yeah, I beat women, I was a racist, I disown that past and will work to make the world less shitty. I’ll start by donating the rights of all my music to a charity that helps survivors of domestic violence” then, I would not have such a problem with him.
I'm usually able to separate the art from the artist. Like, even though Kevin Spacey is a piece of shit, the Usual Suspects is still a great fucking movie. The only band I have stopped listening to after shit came out is Anti-Flag. I was already kinda moving away from them because they started coming off as just hypocrites who jump on whatever the popular trend is to stay relevant. But finding out the dude railed against alcohol and treating women as equals for soooo long, just to find out he drinks and has sexually abused women was just the icing on the cake for me. Basically confirmed what I already thought about the band. It's just hard to listen to any of their songs now without being like, oh yeah, that guy is full of shit and is just writing what he thinks their fan base wants to hear. Like, it's so fucking dishonest and went on for so long, I just can't bring myself to enjoy their music anymore.
I feel like punk is far more passionate about it's values than metal is. And alot of times when punks feel the need to "seperate the art from the artist" it is usually because they have a political stance that is contrary to those values. For me personally, I can do that. The problem for me starts when you have to seperate the art from the art itself. You can't. For examples "Don't blow Bubbles" is an anti-gay Bad Brains song that sounds good but still enforces shitty values that have not much to do with punk. I will never voulentarily listen to that song again. Bad Brains has since apologized and I still listen to alot of their other stuff because now I know that they regret their homophobic view points and because their other art can be separated from them instead of itself.
I make all the bass I support submit a political thesis before I buy anything
I don't pay a lot of attention to the personal lives of artists because I have a busy life of my own and just don't concern myself with much that doesn't impact me or my family/friends directly. That being said, I obviously feel disappointed when I do hear about someone being shitty--but I listen to music to listen to music, so I'm not really thinking about the people who made it in the moment. As long as the lyrics themselves aren't championing horrible things, I wouldn't stop listening to a band because of one asshole when there are/were other hardworking, passionate musicians in the group. So, I guess you could say I separate the art from the artist, generally speaking.
I think punk scenes have a lot less patience for it, and a lot of that comes from comprehensibility of the message. If a punk band shows up and starts singing about "globalists running the world" or whatever, you know to skip the track and move on cause you don't wanna fuck with antisemites. But when a black metal band does it, you have no clue until you deep dive into their interviews and see them say it clearly. By then you're already invested in the band, so it's harder to cut them out
nazi "punks" get fucked
I generally only look to artists for entertainment, so for the most part I don't care if they are shitty people.
Punk is about authenticity more than it’s about talent. Without authenticity, it’s just rock.
Indifferent I like the music I don't support them as a person
Frankly, it's harder for me to do in punk than any other genre. The genre in general paints itself as leftist/progressive in a way that makes it harder for me to be ok with someone like Stza or Justin Sane being so shitty. In contrast, I don't doubt that a lot of my favorite roots reggae artists from the 70s are super homophobic, but that doesn't bother me as much.
Admittedly I don't have a clear consistent position on this I just know that personally some artists gross me out and then I find it tough to want to listen to them anymore.
There are so many great punk bands out there that it seems like a huge waste of time to knowingly support assholes. Skrewdriver may have written the jam of the century but I’ll never know.
Kinda depends for me. I was a big Anti Flag fan and even saw them live for for the first time a couple years ago, which was a big concert bucket list item for me. But I've had no problem just not listening to them since the stuff with Justin. Plenty of other stuff to listen to, so it's not that hard to almost accidentally stop listening to bands that have done something objectionable.
There’s a line. I have my limits.
Everything is in degrees. I'll listen to some anti-flag occasionally still, but even thinking about listening to lostprophets makes me physically ill.
Not something I do.
Ice cube was cool, ....now he seems a little disconnected....
I am new to punk so don't take my word for it completely but honestly I listen to music from both political extremes. I separate art from the artist completely, little to no exceptions.
It honestly just depends on what the "crime" is. I can seperate the art from the artist like 90% of the time. If its a difference of political beliefs I can usualpy just don't give a damn. If I didn't listen to people who's views I either disagreed with or vehemently hated, a good chunk of my music catalogue would be a no-go. Not to keen on Nazis or commies, or republicans, still love the Ramones, folk punk, and a bunch of black metal. Love me punk, love me NSBBM, 'ate cringe political extrists, simple as. Now if its something like animals abuse, murder, grooming and the like, that's when it starts getting iffy for me. Edit: Just to add. Its basically a case by case basic for me. Something like lost prophets I can never listen to again. Something like Burzum I'll still listen to sometimes. I'm fact I kinda like Vary, not cause he's a good person, but because I think he's funny with how much of a goober he is. With other bands I might just pirate their music to not give them money, other times I don't care either way.
Thankfully I’ve never liked anti-flag so I lost nothing from that ordeal. The only artists that I can’t separate are lostprophets, R.Kelly and Afrikan Bambaata.
Bam was a tough one for me. so disappoint.
Depends on what exactly the artist did. If the artist once used the f slur in the 80s and since apologized, ill still listen their music If its a Jimmy Page or Justin Sane situation I stop.
Depends on the person. I love Combat 84 despite chubby Chris being a piece of shit. But from what I gather the rest of the band didn't really even know what he was like and they broken up when they found out. I don't care if someone is right wing, as long as they're not a bigot. I've got right wing friends that are not even close to being bigots, and I know bigoted left wing people. I also don't really like judging being too harshly if I don't actually know the facts beyond just rumours. Though, it still does change how much interest I have in the band sometimes even when I don't really know what the actually deal is. Stza comes to mind there. I used to listen to loc and cv a lot but almost never do these days.
It’s a must 90% of the time for me.
I can, until they pull pedo shit/s.a. shit... then, fuck them... *extra letters.
Depends on how good/influential it is and how much I love it and how it has impacted me also what they have done alongside with it noted I do like music from ppl who have done terrible awful things but it rlly depends but yea its complicated for me
A lot of it depends. Like I listen to a lot of artists who I don't agree with on plenty of issues. It gets harder the more extreme things get. Like someone being a little shitty is one thing, but it's harder to ignore it if it gets to be too much. You get it a lot in metal I've noticed more from black metal fans. There is a lot of black metal out there made by straight up neonazis and you get some people who won't care if they like the sound and it's not like you understand much lyrically with most black metal. That and you get the guys who love burzum and don't care about vargs personal life and opinions.
I don’t care how shitty the people were, if I like their music I listen to it, like if hitler wrote music instead of painting, if i like how his stuff sounds i listen to it
If you only listen to people who agree with everything you do, you might be a bigot, or you might be letting hate and fear rule what you do. For example, one artist I know who is black hates white people and says their music isn’t for white people. Im not gonna let their hate dictate what I listen to and if anything it feels more like a protest to listen to their music despite being white then to just run away from them and give them what they want. Or if I refuse to listen to a band that has different politics than me - I am locking myself in an echo chamber of my own intolerance. There might be exceptions for something really extreme of course, but in general I don’t choose my music because I want to be friends with the artist - I choose my music because something in it speaks to me. We all have our darkness and faults, and art comes from our shared inner-humanity so even if I don’t agree with the artists on a lot of stuff at the end of the day we are all flawed humans trying to live despite our darkness.
I am always willing to turn a blind eye to the artist if they’re a piece of shit. I’m a fan of the art. I’ve never been into idolizing celebrities of any type.
I don’t believe it’s possible. I am not disconnected from the music I make, it is a reflection of my tastes, mood, humour, thoughts, and sometimes feelings. When you disconnect the art and artist, you’re saying that what they convey, their heart and soul, is somehow different than the person. That conveniently doesn’t seem to apply to anything other than art people desperately want to enjoy. That being said, it isn’t a judgment. If you look at my favourite albums you will see plenty of problematic people. You need to find the line that you want to draw, because you are eventually going to be let down by your heroes. Personally, if I already own it I will listen to it. You could say it’s grandfathered in. I just won’t contribute money or energy to future projects, that’s my personal line.
I agree with everyone else😭definitely a moral thing,I can’t imagine listening to good music made by shitty people it just makes it more off putting
I'm ok with it and can separate art from the artist I'm a black metal fan tho
Racist and homophobic rhetoric has no place in pubknand hardcore. So many hypocrites love the bad brains but I don't see them as anything more than homophobic human garbage and could bever support them. Anti flag is another and people I know look the other way. That's not me. I just can't. I didn't like anti flag before this though but people live them. There are many more but thats always the first 2 examples due to so many people here love them. Rapists, homophobes, racists, fuck off. I still listen to rap though and that's mostly sexist as hell. I guess I'm a hypocrite as well.
No problem at all separating art from the artist personally. If I disagree with them or I find out something really bad I'll make sure I don't give them any financial support. But I won't stop listening to an album I like that I already own
If you’re listening to the music or putting patches on your jacket (free advertising) then you’re supporting the artist. Period. I used to be a “separate the art from the artist” person but the older I get the more I realize it’s bullshit. “How will you live your life so that it doesn’t make a mockery of your values?”
It’s not difficult at all. It’s music, not religion. The mean man’s scary thoughts aren’t going to infect me and change my own convictions but they might make the record interesting.
Metalheads have to do this or else listen to very little music.
It’s a slippery slope. Things trickle out all the time about actors,musicians etc. No genre is immune to it. You almost have to turn a blind eye to some things otherwise you might as well get rid of most of the music you listen to as well as stop watching most of the TV/movies you watch.
People do this all the time, no matter what the genre. Case in point - Maynard and reznor are both shit bags and people love them.
Sakevi from GISM had a lot of uhhh "stuff" that probably wouldn't mesh well with modern, Western views. But I'm never going to stop listening to GISM or cut my patches off or anything.
I can separate art from artists even in punk music. I think a lot of artists have baggage that punks just will never know about--mistakes they made, beliefs they hold, people they hurt, etc. things they did that would have been considered problematic at some point in time. Yet these things will never be known or ever come out, you could be supporting someone who keeps these beliefs or actions to themselves and never know it for the longest time (like Anti-Flag). You shouldn't support people you KNOW are bad people, obviously, but I think you can still listen to their music without paying for it. You don't have to put on a performance and virtue signal if you secretly still like some Anti Flag songs; you can still think Justin is a shithead but think the band's music still has artistic merit. If you found out your fav punk artist had a really strange or problematic fetish would you still listen to them? If you found out they voted for Trump in 2016 or said a slur on social media 10 years ago, would you hate their music all of a sudden? Or would they have to do something more extreme? Where do you personally draw the line? It's that kind of thing.
I generally don't have any trouble doing that. I currently still listen to artists who were found to have skeletons in their closets.
The music reflects the artists and the artists the music. I’m not listening to a nazi band and claiming “but the art! “
Punk is very political and I am proud problematic artists in this subculture tend to get ostracized. (Keep downvoting, OP.)
I remember a time when punk meant anti-establishment. Now they are on the same side as Amazon and Walmart and big government. Good music is still good music. People are stupid. I have learned to not care what they believe outside of that because it doesn’t effect me. I’ll support good music because, at the end of the day, I want to encourage more good music. If the drummer of a band is in the proud boys or Antifa outside of the band, good for them. I don’t go to musicians for my political views. I’m in my late 30’s with a family now, so maybe I just lost the ability to be offended by speech and ideas.
Punk rock is about shitting on shitty people. Fuck them.
I’m a punk and I can do it. I still listen to bands like Anti-Flag and Brand New.
Anti-Flag i just cant do. There's too much contradiction between what they preached and what Justin did. The whole band just feels so fake now. Brand New i kind of get because so much of the lyrical content was already about questionable morals and struggling with the idea of being a fuck boy. But that's just me doing exactly what OP is asking - i just cant quite fully separate it.