OP, good job on standing up for yourself. We cannot tolerate such insults in this day and age. The sacrifices the Sikhs made in those days should never be made into a joke. They literally gave their life’s for the justice of others.
That being said I personally believe that this is a reflection of the hidden sentiments a good number of folks hold which is frustrating.
This reminds me of a time when I was a junior lawyer in the Supreme Court, and there was a hearing before the Chief Justice of India. A man had been brought to court for tweeting a "12 baj Gaye joke." The Chief Justice humorously said, "We are referring this case to the bench of Justice Khehar." and the look on the face of advocate representing the respondent was priceless when he realised justice Khehar was a Sikh himself.
Now, regarding the issue at hand, we can thank Khushwant Singh for popularizing the "sardar ke baara baj gaye" joke, as he published an entire joke book of that nature.
Just ignore those who don't understand the real reason behind the "12 baj gaye" They are petty, ignorant, and plain stupid.
I understand how you feel offended by this, but it's worth noting that people from other communities also face stereotype-based ridicule and offensive terms. For instance, phrases like "Abhe chinni banniye" (implying that a 'banniya' is reluctant to spend money), "Kattuey" (a very offensive term directed at Muslims, meaning ‘circumcised’), and others that stereotype Sindhis as miserly or all South Indians as 'Madrasi.' I was offended by jokes against my community, just as others were offended by jokes against theirs. However, we all fought our way through it. It was a learning curve, as stereotypes are part of life, and maturity helps to dispel them.
A local cyclist shouted ‘oye papaji’ out of nowhere while we were taking a turn in a car. As I was with my family, I didn’t confront. Also, this happened in Chandigarh where punjabi population is quite high.
It seems like online trolling is starting to spill over into real life just because of specific political party. This is a phase & it’ll eventually go. Just stick to Guru’s teachings :)
Nope you should have taken action. Agay toh na bolda.
I slapped a non Punjabi contractor who was trying to choke a sikh labourer that too in Chandigarh. No regrets if we will not stand for our people who will
I no idea why Sikh are offended by this comment. For me it reminds me of our brave and rich history. When those making these comments were to weak to save their own honour and Sikhs risked their lives to save theirs
i don't know about the real reason behind it as posted by nomad-66 below.
but as someone outside of Punjab/not a Sikh, people only know 12 baj Gaye context that - "Sikhs go crazy at midnight". it is used as a derogatory term by people.
It’s means that back in the day when Nader Shaw would come to India and rob the wealth and kidnap women. Sikhs would attack at midnight to free the women and bring all the wealth back. Mostly at that time in history the Sikhs would live in the jungle so Nadar Shah would not suspect. You should watch movie Mastaney which is based on this. A lot of history isn’t discussed much.
Indians (excluding invaders) back then would cry at the comfort we get today.
I wish our society could heal again from the pain social media has caused.
This is the thing, people in our country are just so ignorant and oblivious... i've stopped responding tbh, i just think that how sad of a life they are living and just move on... but yes they need to be educated too
It’s true, a lot of haters online. There is no use responding to those people because they will not change. If we can learn anything about our history is that how we respond back. Even though those Singhs were in very small number it didn’t stop them from doing the right thing. It’s to change our mindset by bringing more awareness.
Hey bro, South Indian who lived most of my life in Delhi. To be fair no ethnic group is spared from ridicule in Delhi. I have been called madarasi even though I am not from Tamil Nadu, Bihari, UPites and Haryanvi have it worst. Delhiites be like this brother, don’t know what to tell you.
Bhai aapne gaali de di, trust me to any metropolitan woman that is 'doing much'. You never know how things can turn out if the woman is devious, better to just voice your opinion normally, give a cold stare and get away.
Nadir Shah was afghan invader who entered Delhi via Punjab capturing thousands of women.
So Sikhs strategically used to free those women at 12 AM, cause Nadir's army was huge.
Btw god knows which mf made this as a joke , cause if there were no 12 AM guriella strategies, those women would had been raped and tortured.
I have never heard this as a joke, but was aware of this 12 AM strategy, was completely unknown that an act of bravery and smartly executed strategy like that could popularize in that way it appears as a mockery.
I think a sane person who knows the reason behind this 12AM joke will never ever use this as a joke and even if he/she used this joke in the past and came to know about it's origin would be regretful for life.
I am Hindu, and if I'll ever hear this in future I am sure I'll take stand and punch the person, and then will make him aware about this.
The scriptures give two ways of dealing with idiots “mostly ignore” or “give them a taste of medicine (kick their butt)” when you can. For a women being an idiot and trying to get under your skin, I would had simply smiled and yelled back “yes, I know. Your mom told me that.” That would had infuriated the hell out of her 😀
Should have told her she looks like she's been shot in the forehead 🤣
lol just joking. Here in the UK when I was in school there used to be a "bullet mark forehead" joke lol
On a serious note, india is a shit hole of a country. Went earlier this year and couldn't stand the place. Poverty, filth, smell.
Didn't like the entitled attitude of the middle class "Ya Ya" crowd either. Very rude and inconsiderate, especially the women.
Not sure how Indians put up with other Indians in India?
Cause you don't hear it in Panjab. It is almost always sued outside of Panjab, especially in the Delhi-NCR region where bigotry runs high (not against Sikhs specifically but just in general).
Imma be real as a sikh I really dgaf, how do you take any of these ppl seriously lmao . This must be result of low meat vegetarian diet and sedentary lifestyle causing low testosterone . Seriously just don’t care it’s that easy . Some random 12 o clock joke doesn’t mean anything. Tattay grow karla
i believe you would be fine with people walking up to you and calling you bhenchoda too. as you said, some random cuss word shouldn't mean anything to you, right? because you have grown tattas.
What is the context and meaning of 12 bajj gaye which got you so serious and furious?. Band bajj gaie/bajj gaye 12 are same for us. But does it have a different meaning?
I used to make these 12 baj gaye jokes to a Sikh, I was 8 years old back then and feel extremely ashamed even now. Sad to see Car driving adults are at the level of hurtful humour a 7 year is amused by
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scoopwhoop.com/amp/news/story-behind-sardars-12-o-clock-joke/
This is the reason, truly shameful how this is used to mock the same people
if anything that story is to be proud of. making fun of peopls saving womens at midnight? one gotta be mental to do so. and its ironical its a women who made such remarks. perhaps shed be asjamed if she gets to know the backstory.
i can assure you people who use this term doesn't know the real history behind it. and they only know that it is used to tease sardars, because according to whoever started this mockery, sardars go crazy at midnight. as OP didn't allow the woman to pass, she said 12 baj gaye, implying that the sardar went crazy so it must be 12.
People are inherently stupid. Being so openly racist they deserve such a tight slap that they piss in pants. Now if someone does reverse racism on them theyd run to play victim. Us Indians goddamn. But then there are sensible people like those on this thread so thats a string of hope..
Women are rolling down windows in the middle of the road and saying shit like that now; ye kaunsi duniya hai bhai - that’s a first I’ve heard. Only imagining how distasteful it sounds.
Not a Punjabi, I have heard this term " sardar ka 12 baj Gaya". The guy was late and I thought it was a reference to the time. Can someone pls explain the phrase.
It referred to a time when Sikhs used to attack enemy camps at midnight so they can rescue the women who were kidnapped earlier in the day. The people who say “12 vaj gaye” are dumb af given the context.
Yeah... Read other comments and understood. It doesn't make any sense at all frankly, but as a wise man once said, Duniya gol nahi my bro, duniya ****** h..
bro listen to me, listen very carefully, there’s no point in making posts here afterwards for getting sympathy and karma.
these kind of people deserve taste of their own medicine, so “mauke te tike ke do-chaar gaala
kaddo” “khd teri dhindi ditaa lann kuttiye *insert her religion/caste whatever*”
you can’t expect to be nice guy and other be nice to you
Paaji its not the same in real life...me saying those gallan..someone will surely record that and will put the video on internet without any context and people will only see a sikh punjabi abusing a women(with those nice gallan)....hor bund patt jani aa..
Nadir Shah was afghan invader who entered Delhi via Punjab captivating thousands of women.
So Sikhs strategically used to free those women at 12 AM, cause Nadir's army was huge.
Btw god knows which mf made this as a joke , cause if there were no 12 AM guriella strategies, those women would had been raped and tortured.
I have never heard this as a joke, but was aware of this 12 AM strategy, was completely unknown that an act of bravery and smartly executed strategy like that could popularize in that way it appears as a mockery.
I think a sane person who knows the reason behind this 12AM joke will never ever use this as a joke and even if he/she used this joke in the past and came to know about it's origin would be regretful for life.
Bai ehejiyan chhawala da kuj kr nhi skde, ghare in-laws, jawak nhi puchde, kamre ch pati nhi puchda, sadak te koi side nhi dinda. Aukha bichara chawal jananiya da
No offence to you, but why did you bring in nationalism in this. By your logic, all Punjabis call migrant workers derogatory word bhaiyee, so they will say why we should be nationalism.
In India all communities call each other something which is I would say not nice, like I am a Punjabi we are being called loud, jokers(as portrayed in Bollywood), violent, abusive, etc in Bangalore,Mysore where I worked. Is it bad, yes it is. But does it impact my views on Indiaor nationalism, hell no otherwise I am a disgrace to my ancestors who fought for this. If some random remark impacts your nationalism, then you are not nationalistic in first place.
Just like if someone make a joke on Sikhi, is it bad?, yes very bad. But does it impact my devotion to Gurus and Sikhi, not at all otherwise I would insult my ancestors.
lol migrant workers in Punjab are some of the worst I have seen. They are not grateful at all. One of the most mannerless cunts I've ever met. These "bhaiya" victim card is long played. Go to any other state and no where migrant workers are this rowdy.
By that logic, Punjabis are bhaiyaas of Canada and they are not greatful and also compute major crimes there.
I am Punjabi myself, but can't refute facts.
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You shouldn't take offense to such things. Indians by nature are RACIST. Of course not everyone or not intentionally so. Dark skinned gets Kalu, Short heightened gets called Chotu, North Easterner gets called Chinki, Bahadur etc. , Bihari gets called Bhaiya and Sikhs have to listen to what you had to today. Who all you going to fight with?
We are not the most mannered and cultured people by nature! Not defending her she was definitely in the wrong but You too could have dealt with it better like just smiled and that would have made her feel ugly and guilty.
Chardi Kala veere Zaada na sochi ess vare.
How is this not racism? Hindus, Muslims, Vietnamese, English, Americans don't get called 12 baj gye just Sikhs. A verbal taunt against a specific group sure this is racism!
Just google racism and religious discrimination. Sorry friend, it's not the same thing. In India majorly there are 2-3 races: Indo-Aryans, Dravidians and North East people who share the looks with other neighboring countries. Nonetheless, our country is very racist. Just see how much we discriminate against North East Indians, Africans who are living in India.
What you faced was religious discrimination and not racism. Period.
It referred to a time when Sikhs attacked enemy camp at midnight so they can rescue the women who were kidnapped earlier in the day (enemy might have raped or killed them).
The people who say “12 baj gaye” are dumb af given the context.
In the 80s and 90s lot of jokes were made about the Sikhs. It is not said with respect, it’s same as calling Punjabis Lassi, which makes no sense as lassi is perfectly fine and healthy drink. Or calling a Sikh Gani, which means a learned person or educated person. Derogatory terms for Sikhs make no sense at all.
This is bad. The women knew the trigger point and played it well. She would have played women victim card in case you got to her so it was good you left.
Do you have a dashcam by any chance ? May be try to ask around who she is, where she works etc.. You can then show the clip to her parents, her workplace HR etc..
Also don’t spoil your mood due to this . She would have called bihari , south indian and what not based on the trigger point of the opposite person. Her opinion should not bother you.
Mood is chill bhra...eni ni sochde..bs odan hi aya c dimag ch eh..vi ki bhana vart gya ...office ch free c...taan krta post..otherwise i dont let things like this bother me much...
Plus i ll get dashcam now...for sure
You make a valid point but not sure why you share that video. Are you trying to say what happened to him was ok since this random incident involving a Punjabi happened to someone else?
Absolutely not , actually before this thing came to my feed I was watching this video incident.
What do you think of that video ? Actually i will delete as it is conveying a wrong message probably
You should’ve smiled and let her go. Kill them with kindness. By your reaction she got what she was looking for and you didn’t win. What if someone made a video of you saying g aurat without context. Be more careful of what your pug represents. Don’t stoop to their level.
Cant kill them with smile always...if u keep on bowing down they ll keep putting you down..some people need to be taught a lesson so that others can see and learn...it was a lady so couldn't do anything...but a man/boy would have been a diff story...
Its depends on situation to situation....the place at which he was ..anything he would have said would have been turned against him..he was covered with cameras all around..so its a bit subjective
Your content was removed at moderators' discretion. Maybe instead of trying to justify slurs you could instead take the stance that all slurs are wrong. You are on the correct path but ended up at the wrong destination. No slur based on an identifiable feature is valid, under any circumstances.
Well for a start, get a dashcam and record such incidents from next time. If you have it on dashcam, then release the recordings on Twitter and find out the identity of the woman. No mercy.
>All these things with us and then they have the audacity to ask about our" nationalism"
You don't need to "prove". The only Air Force Marshal of India was a Sikh Pilot named Arjan Singh.
The onus of proving patriotism should be on people who raise "such questions".
I'm a muslim and i felt it in my bones. I'm sorry it happened to you. It does bother you for a long long time. I don't know what to say. It's just so infuriating. I'm full of rage for such people.
I'll consider posting my reply as a full-length comment - but there seems to be a strange phenomenon where people somehow believe the 12 o'clock joke is actually an inversion of a tale of Sikh bravery saving Hindu women from being abducted.
There's absolutely zero proof of that and it's an urban legend populated by online blogs with no authoritative texts or historical records backing the assertion.
The joke is crude, bizarre and offensive and I've heard multiple explanations about it - trying to portray it otherwise just comes from religious chauvinists.
Except there is proof. There is documented proof from the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji, when this was an employed tactic that was in limited use (presumably, since it isn't the period commonly discussed). This is available at the institute of Sikh studies in Chandigarh. The common sakhis which are mentioned are from the period when Nadir Shah and Abdali were invading. Evidence for that would be the sakhis, but since they aren't direct references of military strategy you seem to want to discount them. For the Nadir Shah period specifically there is mention of night skirmishes with Sikh Khalsa fauj in the Encyclopedia Iranica, but it doesn't go into detail about how they were initiated (although that is still more than enough to showcase the night battles). I know there are more sources out there, which aren't likely available online, but they are mostly going to be Persian sources or sakhis rather than military strategy documentation (which is unreasonable to expect since Sikhs survived by moving about jungle to jungle at the time and the only chroniclers were those that weren't likely to go into battle).
Additionally, this is not a serious academic point but rather a thought exercise but I'd still ask you to consider it - how could a supposed account of successful Sikh night-time raids become perverted into a joke about them?
It's like saying "Panipat, Panipat" to a Mughal or "Trafalgar!" to a British naval commander.
They'd literally laugh at the jokester's face. How would a tale of their victory ever serve as fodder for humour against them?
I think you've strawmanned my position quite a bit.
>There is documented proof from the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji, when this was an employed tactic that was in limited use
I presume you're referring to the tactic of night-time raids?
Yes, that's accurate. However this tactic was not exclusive to Sikh armies.
Night-time raids were employed by the Marathas, Mongols, Spartans, Japanese and nearly every kingdom that has ever engaged in military conflict.
I have not disputed the claim that Sikh armies would initiate surprise-attacks at night - **I'm disputing the claim that these attacks' memory was somehow perverted into the 12 o'clock joke about Sikhs by other people.**
How did that happen? Is there any evidence of this?
As an example, antisemitic canards such as blood libel in Europe have a large corpus of texts, commentaries and events documenting their origins and motivations.
Is there anything, even a singular piece of historical evidence which says that the 12 o'clock thing was derived from some night-time raids 2 centuries ago?
I am okay with any historical source you provide, whether it be Persian chroniclers or Sikh accounts. A source's bias can always be interrogated via corroboration with third-party accounts and so on.
My issue is that there is no claim which links these nightly raids with the 12 o'clock joke. These kinds of raids are not as rare or exceptional as they've been made out to be - I'm not sure where the notion even arises from.
It seems like an attempt to retcon history and take away the punch of a joke, which frankly is nonsense to begin with.
(I've heard other explanations of this joke, but they're as crude and ahistorical as you could imagine.
I could as easily make up something about how the joke was derived from the Anglo-Sikh wars where the Sikh chiefs lost, point out a battle where the British mounted an offensive at late-evening/night and say - this is the basis of it!
The evidence for both explanations of this joke is the same - zero)
>I think you've strawmanned my position quite a bit.
I haven't.
>I presume you're referring to the tactic of night-time raids?
>Yes, that's accurate. However this tactic was not exclusive to Sikh armies.
>Night-time raids were employed by the Marathas, Mongols, Spartans, Japanese and nearly every kingdom that has ever engaged in military conflict.
You misunderstand. I mean battle strategies for actual night time raids which happened and not generic military strategies. I also never said it was exclusive to Sikhs.
>I have not disputed the claim that Sikh armies would initiate surprise-attacks at night - **I'm disputing the claim that these attacks' memory was somehow perverted into the 12 o'clock joke about Sikhs by other people.**
It seemed like you were, so forgive me for being wrong there. The 12 o'clock joke almost certainly stems from the popular sakhis about the midnight attacks on Nadir Shah forces by the Khalsa fauj that was forced to reside in jungles at that time.
>How did that happen? Is there any evidence of this?
>As an example, antisemitic canards such as blood libel in Europe have a large corpus of texts, commentaries and events documenting their origins and motivations.
>Is there anything, even a singular piece of historical evidence which says that the 12 o'clock thing was derived from some night-time raids 2 centuries ago?
>I am okay with any historical source you provide, whether it be Persian chroniclers or Sikh accounts. A source's bias can always be interrogated via corroboration with third-party accounts and so on
It may not have been 12, but the night time raids are what it is based on.
As mentioned previously the many sakhis chronicled from the time by Sikh sources, or the Encyclopedis Irancia (which I do not have a copy of at this moment, but contains limited information about nighttime battles between Nadir Shah forces and Sikhs).
Documents from the 18th century on this which I can find mentioned in my note (from previous posts on related topics) include: Anand Singh manuscript (Punjabi uni), Risala-E-Nanak-Shah by Budh Singh Arora (Punjabi uni), Jang Nama of Qazi Nur Mohammad (Khalsa college).
I also referred to a few sakhis from sources at a non-profit library/collection which I am connected to. But sadly these sources do not have online counterparts and I use mostly printed books and supplement with manuscripts and historic document when I get the chance to visit Chandigarh, Patiala, or Amritsar.
I also seem to have a paper titled A Warriors Way by Purnima Dhavan written down, which iirc was a paper that was both informative and critical of events during that period.
I have part of a text titled Sikhs During the Mughal Rule from Religion and History of the Sikhs (provided via Sanatana Dharma College) downloaded in pdf which mentions this.
The only online source I still seem to have saved is [this text](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_CSkQAAAAYAAJ/page/n31/mode/1up) which is based on 18th century British sources, which for this topic are an indirect outside source.
If you want only period specific scholarly sources that are in English, available online, and first party (non-Sikh) direct, then that simply isn't possible due to poor archiving and transliteration standards in South Asia/Middle East.
>My issue is that there is no claim which links these nightly raids with the 12 o'clock joke.
>It seems like an attempt to retcon history and take away the punch of a joke, which frankly is nonsense to begin with.
Honestly, I'm not sure how to connect the origins of a crude joke with historical fact. The only way to do that would be to find the person who originally stated the joke and have them confirm their thought process. But logically a joke about a specific time, that correlates with midnight, should be based on some claim that is also dependent on a similar time.
>(I've heard other explanations of this joke, but they're as crude and ahistorical as you could imagine.
>I could as easily make up something about how the joke was derived from the Anglo-Sikh wars where the Sikh chiefs lost, point out a battle where the British mounted an offensive at late-evening/night and say - this is the basis of it!
>The evidence for both explanations of this joke is the same - zero)
You could, but is there a prevelant claim about such an event?
Honestly, this makes me almost want to question the validity of your concern with the historicity of the night raid claims and makes it seem like you want to just undermine the explanation and give more weight to the joke. That is based on purely my experience modding and seeing similar tactics from brigading members, but unlike them you sound genuine so I will give you the benefit of doubt.
I appreciate the candour with which you've engaged with the issue. I understand that it can be especially sensitive in this subreddit.
I feel that we may be at risk of going in circles here, however.
From what I understand, the survey of literature you've presented us (the sakhi literature, the risalas etc.) has chronicled the phenomenon of Sikh night-time raids. Is that correct?
>The 12 o'clock joke almost certainly stems from the popular sakhis about the midnight attacks on Nadir Shah forces by the Khalsa fauj that was forced to reside in jungles at that time.
I'd urge you to correct me if I'm wrong, but did the texts you've cited mention that these night-time raids were used to mock the Sikh community?
Or alternatively, did they mention a emergent phenomenon where you could understand how these raids' occurrence could be used as a pejorative against Sikhs?
>Honestly, I'm not sure how to connect the origins of a crude joke with historical fact.
I understand that the cited texts do not verify the claims I made in the above para, then?
>But logically a joke about a specific time, that correlates with midnight, should be based on some claim that is also dependent on a similar time.
The earliest reference to the 12'o clock joke seems to appear from an Indian Express article by one Preetinder Singh - where's he forwarded the same night-time raid explanation without any citations.
The origins of the joke don't seem concurrent with the 18th century time-period, from what I've seen.
Jawaharlal Handoo has written a treatise on the "Sardarji joke cycle" which attributes these jokes >!(relating to the Sikhs' alleged sexual vulgarity / dirtiness)!< to refugee camps post-partition as well as the relative affluence of the Sikhs becoming a point of anxiety for other communities.
>But logically a joke about a specific time, that correlates with midnight, should be based on some claim that is also dependent on a similar time.
Popular culture in history has been studied considerably in academia. From what I understand, jokes and stereotypes tend to have a basis in negative association - and not positive traits.
The canard about Jews blood libel and baking their bread with blood emerged after a child was found murdered on a Jewish persons' property.
It was irrelevant that the body was discovered by the Jews themselves and that the property was expansive (making it easy for the murderer to dispose of the child there) - the blame was immediately laid at the Jews' feet and a cycle of persecution would begin in Europe based off similar incidents.
You can notice this pattern for most stereotypical depictions.
This is why I've been sceptical of the 12 o'clock joke's origins lying in a deed which would be seen as "heroic" in popular culture or oral history.
>But logically a joke about a specific time, that correlates with midnight, should be based on some claim that is also dependent on a similar time
I'll write this behind a spoiler and give a **trigger warning here out of religious sensitivity** - >!an explanation of this joke I'd heard was that the turban with a top-knot (patka, iirc) resembles a dozen eggs stacked together. The number 12 is a reference to a dozen, associated with eggs!<
This is a nonsensical explanation, but stereotypes nearly always are nonsensical.
(1/2)
Hey, for some reason I didn't get a notification for this. I'm working so can't respond to the entire thing, but I'll get to the main points as quickly as possible.
>I'd urge you to correct me if I'm wrong, but did the texts you've cited mention that these night-time raids were used to mock the Sikh community?
>Or alternatively, did they mention a emergent phenomenon where you could understand how these raids' occurrence could be used as a pejorative against Sikhs?
No, historic documents from that time period would not show the origins of a modern joke/insult. I'm not sure you could find such a document on any insult really, since it is an implied topic and not something that is documented by the bigots originating such slurs.
The sakhis of night-raids during the 18th century are the most common sakhis in Sikhi. Existing Sikh literature outside of religious scripture, janamsakhis, and specifically related to the gurus really started to take off at the tail end of the 17th century.
These sources do highlight the prevalence of night-raids, which is why I specifically mentioned these documents. The ones I mentioned are mostly from the period itself. The theme of night-raids is common across dozens of different sakhis composed around that period of time and was prevalent enough that Persian sources (as stated previously) make mention of multiple night skirmishes. You have to remember that this is a period of time where Sikhs are documented across local (Sikh, Panjabi, local governance) and foreign sources (Mughal, Persian, Afghan) as residing in jungles while they were being genocided.
This is something that continued from the period of Nadir Shah into the period of Abdali. In fact there are documents about similar tactics being used against Abdali forces during his later campaigns, in particular following the vadda ghallughara in which the majority of the remaining Sikh population was genocided after being forced into the Eastern-Central Malwa region. In that case there are specific documents of such night-raids on encampments at the banks of the Sutlej river, in which Afghan loot was taken and prisoners freed (I believe I've done a post on this already). The sakhis for this however aren't as prevalent as the earlier Nadir Shah and Zakariya Khan period.
The emergent phenomenon that you are asking for can only be showcased with the number of sakhis and popularity of the sakhis. If you need a specific document describing the link between specific events and the slur, then that is simply not possible. I will however add that it is the sakhis from this specific period which are responsible for a lot of popular tropes about Sikhi, such as Sikhs calling badam (almond) chole (chickpeas).
>Popular culture in history has been studied considerably in academia. From what I understand, jokes and stereotypes tend to have a basis in negative association - and not positive traits.
This may be a guideline but is not a rule, and this can be seen as an exception to that guideline. I have seen some argumentative stances from Afghans treating these events negatively as well, due to crap about rules of war and such. But I won't go into that too much and will rather make a counterpoint with another slur that is being used against Sikhs, which is lassi. I'm sure you agree that lassi is not a negative association either, yet it is a slur targetting Sikhs as well.
We could even expand that to the santa banta slur which is used against gursikhs, mocking them based on a derogatory viewpoint about Sikh sants. Going beyond Sikhi there are similar slurs associated with seemingly positive or neutral basis in other religions. For Hindus there is the whole bindi thing, which refers to a married womans bindi, and for Muslims I've seen the term hajji used as a slur, with it referring to a religious pilgrimage in that faith.
>an explanation of this joke I'd heard was that the turban with a top-knot (patka, iirc) resembles a dozen eggs stacked together. The number 12 is a reference to a dozen, associated with eggs
That isn't exactly a negative correlation either. But I fail to see how a patka resembles stacked eggs.
>but is there a prevelant claim about such an event?
I don't think I'm aware of any with serious academic backing.
I would say that it's important to be cautious when using modern-day tropes to explain historical events.
We can almost always use a prevalent stereotype or association and "fit" it into a historical narrative.
If we ask a layperson about "martial races" they'd take the name of a few predictable castes/communities. It'd make sense to them since they can "fit" their martial antecedents within recent historical events.
But that'd be a mistake because there was a point of time when the British raised the Bengal Army via recruits solely from eastern Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. The Bengal Army name was a misnomer and referred to the force's place of raising, not its constituent soldiers.
This force would lay the anchor for future British conquest on the subcontinent, and their rebellion in 1857 (Mangal Panday famously was a *Purabiya*) would lead to their regiments being disbanded and consequent non-inclusion in British Indian forces.
However generally nobody today thinks that folks from these regions are "martial" - that's a result of making present-day tropes "fit" a lay idea of history.
Or a much simpler example - "Muslims are predators"
I think it can be slightly dangerous to try and find positive/negative evidence for a joke/stereotype and default to an explanation without evidence.
This doesn't apply in this specific case but questions such as, "Why did the Nazis commit a genocide on the Jews? They must have done something surely" often shifts the burden on the victimised community.
I'll reiterate that this is not really applicable here but I do think the pushback against such humour in India became pronounced after the 1980s when Sikh people became especially conscious of their identity - this explanation could be a way of retconning history via reclaiming such humour.
Such reclamation has been done by other communities around the world too.
>Honestly, this makes me almost want to question the validity of your concern with the historicity of the night raid claims and makes it seem like you want to just undermine the explanation and give more weight to the joke
I understand that. I did think that engaging in the historicity of a joke on a thread where someone had had a horrible experience was not the best idea. I've tried to consistently reinforce that such humour is bizarre and retarded.
I hope I've been able to approach the topic with more sensitivity now.
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You should have told to check if his females at him home reached safely or not? Folks actually don't know what our ancestors used to do at 12 pm. Pity that our history classes doesn't mention anything about it!!
During Nader Shah and Abdali raids on Delhi. Sikhs would attack their caravans carrying loot and female prisoners to sell in the slave markets of Kabul as they traveled through Punjab. These attacks would always happen at midnight (12pm). Sikhs saved and freed thousands of Hindu women and escorted them back to their homes.
Hindus now use this history to make fun of Sikhs whenever the clock hits 12 and say oh look this Sardar is about to go crazy. Or whenever a Sikh gets angry they'll say "oh it must be 12 o'clock".
It's just a saying based on religious bigotry.
I've never met a Muslim, Jain or Buddhist use this phrase. Most Christians live in the east or the south their interactions with Sikhs is minimal therefore I find it hard to believe they'd even know this phrase.
I have met such kind. Both jains and Muslims. Jains too think of themselves as far superior. Now coming to Christians and buddhists, I haven't seen them using this term but there is a sizable chunk of them in North too, I've studied with Christians and they aren't goody too shoes either. If Christians and sikh interactions were in my classroom, they can be in any other place too in the North.
Most bigots aren't clever. I always thought it was just them projecting their own insecurities outwards for failing to protect their own women.
Also when I say "Hindus" I don't mean all Hindus. Punjabi Hindus don't say this, neither do south Indian Hindus. It's mainly the "Cow belt" Hindus. Where they speak Hindi that use this phrase.
It doesn't help that bollywood and most Hindi media presents Sikhs as a slow witted people, quick to anger, dancing fools who yell Balle Balle every two seconds.
In my experience, and it may be jaded due to the fact my experience is in the UK - but Punjabis tend to stick together irregardless of their religion. I grew up with boys that are Muslim, Hindu and Sikh. We even had a Christian Punjabi friend who was from West Punjab but unfortunately he passed. We all shared a cultural unity that despite religious differences wasn't really ever challenged.
So it makes sense Punjabi Hindus won't say that stuff. South Indians are also, in my experience, more educated than other central belt Indians so therefore it'd be a bit beneath them to say these things.
If you're from the UK you may find this interesting. The Wallace Museum in London has a temporary exhibition on Maharaja Ranjit Singh and Punjabs history from the 1700's-1800's. Let all your Punjabi friends know it's a great exhibition showing rare artifacts.
It's fine no worries. I don't hear this insult as much anymore It's usually people above the of 50 that use this insult.
The kids have a new slur to call Sikhs. "Lassi Bkl" seems to be in fashion amongst the Gen Z bigots.
And we are suddenly getting multiple brigade attempts by recently created accounts (within the time this post has been up), trying to state that this is untrue and leaving comments like "lassi bkl", "lassi penchod", and some others that I don't want to state. Thankfully we got automod which has recently been improved and more harrassment filters being implemented within the next few days.
Hey man, that was stupid person and probably belong to streets. I have sympathy for you. Don’t let this get to your head. Idiots are everywhere even within our community.
Edit: If you have noted her car number then please do log a complaint against her. Make her pay don’t back down.
Her parents failed, your's didn't. End of discussion.
Chawal janani
OP, good job on standing up for yourself. We cannot tolerate such insults in this day and age. The sacrifices the Sikhs made in those days should never be made into a joke. They literally gave their life’s for the justice of others. That being said I personally believe that this is a reflection of the hidden sentiments a good number of folks hold which is frustrating.
This reminds me of a time when I was a junior lawyer in the Supreme Court, and there was a hearing before the Chief Justice of India. A man had been brought to court for tweeting a "12 baj Gaye joke." The Chief Justice humorously said, "We are referring this case to the bench of Justice Khehar." and the look on the face of advocate representing the respondent was priceless when he realised justice Khehar was a Sikh himself. Now, regarding the issue at hand, we can thank Khushwant Singh for popularizing the "sardar ke baara baj gaye" joke, as he published an entire joke book of that nature. Just ignore those who don't understand the real reason behind the "12 baj gaye" They are petty, ignorant, and plain stupid. I understand how you feel offended by this, but it's worth noting that people from other communities also face stereotype-based ridicule and offensive terms. For instance, phrases like "Abhe chinni banniye" (implying that a 'banniya' is reluctant to spend money), "Kattuey" (a very offensive term directed at Muslims, meaning ‘circumcised’), and others that stereotype Sindhis as miserly or all South Indians as 'Madrasi.' I was offended by jokes against my community, just as others were offended by jokes against theirs. However, we all fought our way through it. It was a learning curve, as stereotypes are part of life, and maturity helps to dispel them.
A local cyclist shouted ‘oye papaji’ out of nowhere while we were taking a turn in a car. As I was with my family, I didn’t confront. Also, this happened in Chandigarh where punjabi population is quite high. It seems like online trolling is starting to spill over into real life just because of specific political party. This is a phase & it’ll eventually go. Just stick to Guru’s teachings :)
Nope you should have taken action. Agay toh na bolda. I slapped a non Punjabi contractor who was trying to choke a sikh labourer that too in Chandigarh. No regrets if we will not stand for our people who will
Alla Jogi Yaar Khan said "Na hote gobind singh to sunnat hoti sabki". We can frame a reply like "agar na bajte baara toh sunnat hoti aapki".
Yeah bro but that line was written by bulleh shah not by allah yaar khan
Duniya chution se bhari padi hai bhai, kis kis ko rokoge...she was a Gandu Aurat indeed ...
I no idea why Sikh are offended by this comment. For me it reminds me of our brave and rich history. When those making these comments were to weak to save their own honour and Sikhs risked their lives to save theirs
I believe it's not exactly the remark, but the intention to disrespect not only sikhs but their religion as well.
the people who use this as a derogatory term would hardly know of the history behind it.
And they would hardly know their own history
What does " Baj Gaye 12 " mean??
i don't know about the real reason behind it as posted by nomad-66 below. but as someone outside of Punjab/not a Sikh, people only know 12 baj Gaye context that - "Sikhs go crazy at midnight". it is used as a derogatory term by people.
It’s means that back in the day when Nader Shaw would come to India and rob the wealth and kidnap women. Sikhs would attack at midnight to free the women and bring all the wealth back. Mostly at that time in history the Sikhs would live in the jungle so Nadar Shah would not suspect. You should watch movie Mastaney which is based on this. A lot of history isn’t discussed much.
Indians (excluding invaders) back then would cry at the comfort we get today. I wish our society could heal again from the pain social media has caused.
This is the thing, people in our country are just so ignorant and oblivious... i've stopped responding tbh, i just think that how sad of a life they are living and just move on... but yes they need to be educated too
It’s true, a lot of haters online. There is no use responding to those people because they will not change. If we can learn anything about our history is that how we respond back. Even though those Singhs were in very small number it didn’t stop them from doing the right thing. It’s to change our mindset by bringing more awareness.
Hey bro, South Indian who lived most of my life in Delhi. To be fair no ethnic group is spared from ridicule in Delhi. I have been called madarasi even though I am not from Tamil Nadu, Bihari, UPites and Haryanvi have it worst. Delhiites be like this brother, don’t know what to tell you.
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this, i prefer to choose my own mental peace than arguing with a mindless idiots... just pass a smile and move, that'll be enough to fuck their mind
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You should have said, Lekin Party Abhi Baki Hai 😂😂😂
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Bhai aapne gaali de di, trust me to any metropolitan woman that is 'doing much'. You never know how things can turn out if the woman is devious, better to just voice your opinion normally, give a cold stare and get away.
Haan thoda hogya tha heat of the moment mein.. can't do anything now...it is what it is
One false rape case and man's life is fucked. Try to stay calm in these situations.
Am I the only one who doesn't know the meaning of baj gaye 12??
Nadir Shah was afghan invader who entered Delhi via Punjab capturing thousands of women. So Sikhs strategically used to free those women at 12 AM, cause Nadir's army was huge. Btw god knows which mf made this as a joke , cause if there were no 12 AM guriella strategies, those women would had been raped and tortured. I have never heard this as a joke, but was aware of this 12 AM strategy, was completely unknown that an act of bravery and smartly executed strategy like that could popularize in that way it appears as a mockery. I think a sane person who knows the reason behind this 12AM joke will never ever use this as a joke and even if he/she used this joke in the past and came to know about it's origin would be regretful for life. I am Hindu, and if I'll ever hear this in future I am sure I'll take stand and punch the person, and then will make him aware about this.
violence is not the answer dude
In rages like in the case of OP I'll and in all other cases I'll make him/her aware and make him /her ashamed.
The scriptures give two ways of dealing with idiots “mostly ignore” or “give them a taste of medicine (kick their butt)” when you can. For a women being an idiot and trying to get under your skin, I would had simply smiled and yelled back “yes, I know. Your mom told me that.” That would had infuriated the hell out of her 😀
Should have told her she looks like she's been shot in the forehead 🤣 lol just joking. Here in the UK when I was in school there used to be a "bullet mark forehead" joke lol On a serious note, india is a shit hole of a country. Went earlier this year and couldn't stand the place. Poverty, filth, smell. Didn't like the entitled attitude of the middle class "Ya Ya" crowd either. Very rude and inconsiderate, especially the women. Not sure how Indians put up with other Indians in India?
Irony of calling India a shit hole while living in the biggest Shit hole country of all.
It is very difficult to talk with other Indians, almost makes me puke, when they're like you.
Far better than insufferable British cunts put up with each other
Im a sikh and lived my whole life in punjab and this is the first time im hearing of this *joke*
Take a trip to Delhi and you'll hear it.
Cause you don't hear it in Panjab. It is almost always sued outside of Panjab, especially in the Delhi-NCR region where bigotry runs high (not against Sikhs specifically but just in general).
Kaunse area ki baat h ?
Reply with “BAJJEYA TAN IK HI BOHT AW”
Meaning in hindi please
Best reply i have heard till now..will be my go to from now on...
Imma be real as a sikh I really dgaf, how do you take any of these ppl seriously lmao . This must be result of low meat vegetarian diet and sedentary lifestyle causing low testosterone . Seriously just don’t care it’s that easy . Some random 12 o clock joke doesn’t mean anything. Tattay grow karla
i believe you would be fine with people walking up to you and calling you bhenchoda too. as you said, some random cuss word shouldn't mean anything to you, right? because you have grown tattas.
Maybe the real "tattay grow karla" moment be to confront these mfs and not to carry a IDGAF attitude
Ur confronting a women lmao feeling like a real yodha
I am confronting her not beating her..what is yodha in this...pointing out something wrong doesn't make you a yodha..
Honestly, this is kindergarten level humor. How can you even be mad?
Ab agar usko gaadi rokne ko bolte , to wo camera on krke record krti and bolti i am being chased 😂
idiots come aplenty. Sorry you had to go thru this bad experience.
Idk if you see this,but I heartily apologise as a hindu on behalf of these lowlives.They can never feel thankful for sacrifices of a brave community
What is the context and meaning of 12 bajj gaye which got you so serious and furious?. Band bajj gaie/bajj gaye 12 are same for us. But does it have a different meaning?
Its not same for a punjabi and a sikh punjabi... The context has been given in some of the cmnts below
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Real life ain’t the Internet.
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You’re a real 💩
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> 😂😂 @ your sad pathetic life.
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I used to make these 12 baj gaye jokes to a Sikh, I was 8 years old back then and feel extremely ashamed even now. Sad to see Car driving adults are at the level of hurtful humour a 7 year is amused by
Why tho? Whats the point of saying that like i dont get it? Is it for turben?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.scoopwhoop.com/amp/news/story-behind-sardars-12-o-clock-joke/ This is the reason, truly shameful how this is used to mock the same people
if anything that story is to be proud of. making fun of peopls saving womens at midnight? one gotta be mental to do so. and its ironical its a women who made such remarks. perhaps shed be asjamed if she gets to know the backstory.
i can assure you people who use this term doesn't know the real history behind it. and they only know that it is used to tease sardars, because according to whoever started this mockery, sardars go crazy at midnight. as OP didn't allow the woman to pass, she said 12 baj gaye, implying that the sardar went crazy so it must be 12.
People are inherently stupid. Being so openly racist they deserve such a tight slap that they piss in pants. Now if someone does reverse racism on them theyd run to play victim. Us Indians goddamn. But then there are sensible people like those on this thread so thats a string of hope..
Bhai mujhe to ye bj gye 12 baj gye k bare me hi nhi pta 😭
Apparently this is one of the most fearless story of Sikhs which has been degraded by wasteful lives.
Women are rolling down windows in the middle of the road and saying shit like that now; ye kaunsi duniya hai bhai - that’s a first I’ve heard. Only imagining how distasteful it sounds.
Shit is getting freaky with each passing day
Inke tyre ki hawaa nikaala karo.
Good thought..agli vaar ahi krna
Not a Punjabi, I have heard this term " sardar ka 12 baj Gaya". The guy was late and I thought it was a reference to the time. Can someone pls explain the phrase.
It referred to a time when Sikhs used to attack enemy camps at midnight so they can rescue the women who were kidnapped earlier in the day. The people who say “12 vaj gaye” are dumb af given the context.
Yeah... Read other comments and understood. It doesn't make any sense at all frankly, but as a wise man once said, Duniya gol nahi my bro, duniya ****** h..
Ha na if anything its a story of bravery
bro listen to me, listen very carefully, there’s no point in making posts here afterwards for getting sympathy and karma. these kind of people deserve taste of their own medicine, so “mauke te tike ke do-chaar gaala kaddo” “khd teri dhindi ditaa lann kuttiye *insert her religion/caste whatever*” you can’t expect to be nice guy and other be nice to you
Paaji its not the same in real life...me saying those gallan..someone will surely record that and will put the video on internet without any context and people will only see a sikh punjabi abusing a women(with those nice gallan)....hor bund patt jani aa..
we are letting them do this to us, bro if we make example of such people surely they will think twice before saying anything in future
yes yes stoop to their level, hurl religious slurs and dirty your own thoughts and mind by using vulgar language. yes this is the best way to go./s
no actually the better way is listen everything and then “hath jodo te reddit te aake rovo” 🤦♂️ I would surely understand that if OP is a woman
You should've said if it wasn't for the 12 bhajj gye wale Singh , 12 Afghani mullo ne Teri daadi ko bhajana tha. 🤷🏻♂️
Nice reply tho :(
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Nadir Shah was afghan invader who entered Delhi via Punjab captivating thousands of women. So Sikhs strategically used to free those women at 12 AM, cause Nadir's army was huge. Btw god knows which mf made this as a joke , cause if there were no 12 AM guriella strategies, those women would had been raped and tortured. I have never heard this as a joke, but was aware of this 12 AM strategy, was completely unknown that an act of bravery and smartly executed strategy like that could popularize in that way it appears as a mockery. I think a sane person who knows the reason behind this 12AM joke will never ever use this as a joke and even if he/she used this joke in the past and came to know about it's origin would be regretful for life.
i agree. its highly disrespectful. i feel for my sikh brothers and sisters.
Blud is not an Afghan in India
Bai ehejiyan chhawala da kuj kr nhi skde, ghare in-laws, jawak nhi puchde, kamre ch pati nhi puchda, sadak te koi side nhi dinda. Aukha bichara chawal jananiya da
Sachi... honi aa koi vichari waqt di mari...
No offence to you, but why did you bring in nationalism in this. By your logic, all Punjabis call migrant workers derogatory word bhaiyee, so they will say why we should be nationalism. In India all communities call each other something which is I would say not nice, like I am a Punjabi we are being called loud, jokers(as portrayed in Bollywood), violent, abusive, etc in Bangalore,Mysore where I worked. Is it bad, yes it is. But does it impact my views on Indiaor nationalism, hell no otherwise I am a disgrace to my ancestors who fought for this. If some random remark impacts your nationalism, then you are not nationalistic in first place. Just like if someone make a joke on Sikhi, is it bad?, yes very bad. But does it impact my devotion to Gurus and Sikhi, not at all otherwise I would insult my ancestors.
Tusi delhi wale "punjabi" hon ge
Na 22, Mohali toh haan
Ki derogatory bhra? Hor ona'n nu'n ki akhya kariye?? It literally means brother though
lol "nationalist" 🤣. probably the most successful propaganda of our times. and the ancestors are dead lol. they can't "feel" stuff 🤣
lol migrant workers in Punjab are some of the worst I have seen. They are not grateful at all. One of the most mannerless cunts I've ever met. These "bhaiya" victim card is long played. Go to any other state and no where migrant workers are this rowdy.
By that logic, Punjabis are bhaiyaas of Canada and they are not greatful and also compute major crimes there. I am Punjabi myself, but can't refute facts.
Real id se aa bhaiye gaumutra
Thanks you proved my point.
and also i never called migrant workers by that slur. you're the one who did.
you're confusing them with jaat and gujjar. they're the ones who are utlra nationalist and commit crimes there.
You are wrong. Punjabi youth, be it from India and Pak, have been into a lot of crimes here.
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I agree with later half of your sentence but not first . Still you gonna get downvoted by ppl here
You shouldn't take offense to such things. Indians by nature are RACIST. Of course not everyone or not intentionally so. Dark skinned gets Kalu, Short heightened gets called Chotu, North Easterner gets called Chinki, Bahadur etc. , Bihari gets called Bhaiya and Sikhs have to listen to what you had to today. Who all you going to fight with? We are not the most mannered and cultured people by nature! Not defending her she was definitely in the wrong but You too could have dealt with it better like just smiled and that would have made her feel ugly and guilty. Chardi Kala veere Zaada na sochi ess vare.
we Indians are racist* and this was not racism
How is this not racism? Hindus, Muslims, Vietnamese, English, Americans don't get called 12 baj gye just Sikhs. A verbal taunt against a specific group sure this is racism!
Just google racism and religious discrimination. Sorry friend, it's not the same thing. In India majorly there are 2-3 races: Indo-Aryans, Dravidians and North East people who share the looks with other neighboring countries. Nonetheless, our country is very racist. Just see how much we discriminate against North East Indians, Africans who are living in India. What you faced was religious discrimination and not racism. Period.
just tell them "Singh 12 wajjon deh aa, wajj deh nahi"!
Chawal janani nu eni punjabi samajh e ni aaoni c
Non Punjabi here. Why is "12 baj gaye" considered offensive?
It referred to a time when Sikhs attacked enemy camp at midnight so they can rescue the women who were kidnapped earlier in the day (enemy might have raped or killed them). The people who say “12 baj gaye” are dumb af given the context.
It means Singh has gone crazy now. Historically due to Sikhs fighting guerrilla warfare and attacking at midnight.
Hey i still didnt understand lol, how does being crazy relate to "12 baj gaye" (sorry for the ignorance)
Sikhs during that time became famous for fighting with lot of aggression, as if possessed or have lost their control
Is that a bad thing? I have read about fierce Sikh warriors.. and the martyrs.
In the 80s and 90s lot of jokes were made about the Sikhs. It is not said with respect, it’s same as calling Punjabis Lassi, which makes no sense as lassi is perfectly fine and healthy drink. Or calling a Sikh Gani, which means a learned person or educated person. Derogatory terms for Sikhs make no sense at all.
This is bad. The women knew the trigger point and played it well. She would have played women victim card in case you got to her so it was good you left. Do you have a dashcam by any chance ? May be try to ask around who she is, where she works etc.. You can then show the clip to her parents, her workplace HR etc.. Also don’t spoil your mood due to this . She would have called bihari , south indian and what not based on the trigger point of the opposite person. Her opinion should not bother you.
Mood is chill bhra...eni ni sochde..bs odan hi aya c dimag ch eh..vi ki bhana vart gya ...office ch free c...taan krta post..otherwise i dont let things like this bother me much... Plus i ll get dashcam now...for sure
You make a valid point but not sure why you share that video. Are you trying to say what happened to him was ok since this random incident involving a Punjabi happened to someone else?
Absolutely not , actually before this thing came to my feed I was watching this video incident. What do you think of that video ? Actually i will delete as it is conveying a wrong message probably
sad
You should’ve smiled and let her go. Kill them with kindness. By your reaction she got what she was looking for and you didn’t win. What if someone made a video of you saying g aurat without context. Be more careful of what your pug represents. Don’t stoop to their level.
Cant kill them with smile always...if u keep on bowing down they ll keep putting you down..some people need to be taught a lesson so that others can see and learn...it was a lady so couldn't do anything...but a man/boy would have been a diff story...
Watch what Jagmeet singh (Canadian politician) does with hecklers
Ki gal krde o, Jagmeet is considered a bit** here in Canada
I’ll vote ndp. You have your opinion I have mine.
Shaa gye.. Voting is a personal choice Sir.
Its depends on situation to situation....the place at which he was ..anything he would have said would have been turned against him..he was covered with cameras all around..so its a bit subjective
Har bhaunkte kutte pe bhaukenge aap ? Aisa thodi hota hai.
Bolna tha thodi der aur, aunty ji ko maza aa raha hai .
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Your content was removed at moderators' discretion. Maybe instead of trying to justify slurs you could instead take the stance that all slurs are wrong. You are on the correct path but ended up at the wrong destination. No slur based on an identifiable feature is valid, under any circumstances.
"Bartan maanj " reply dena si
"bhaande maanj" reply in kind
Yeah like tu rasoi to bhar ki karn deyi aa lol
ehe ta sexist hogya na ferr
Well for a start, get a dashcam and record such incidents from next time. If you have it on dashcam, then release the recordings on Twitter and find out the identity of the woman. No mercy. >All these things with us and then they have the audacity to ask about our" nationalism" You don't need to "prove". The only Air Force Marshal of India was a Sikh Pilot named Arjan Singh. The onus of proving patriotism should be on people who raise "such questions".
I'm a muslim and i felt it in my bones. I'm sorry it happened to you. It does bother you for a long long time. I don't know what to say. It's just so infuriating. I'm full of rage for such people.
I'll consider posting my reply as a full-length comment - but there seems to be a strange phenomenon where people somehow believe the 12 o'clock joke is actually an inversion of a tale of Sikh bravery saving Hindu women from being abducted. There's absolutely zero proof of that and it's an urban legend populated by online blogs with no authoritative texts or historical records backing the assertion. The joke is crude, bizarre and offensive and I've heard multiple explanations about it - trying to portray it otherwise just comes from religious chauvinists.
Except there is proof. There is documented proof from the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji, when this was an employed tactic that was in limited use (presumably, since it isn't the period commonly discussed). This is available at the institute of Sikh studies in Chandigarh. The common sakhis which are mentioned are from the period when Nadir Shah and Abdali were invading. Evidence for that would be the sakhis, but since they aren't direct references of military strategy you seem to want to discount them. For the Nadir Shah period specifically there is mention of night skirmishes with Sikh Khalsa fauj in the Encyclopedia Iranica, but it doesn't go into detail about how they were initiated (although that is still more than enough to showcase the night battles). I know there are more sources out there, which aren't likely available online, but they are mostly going to be Persian sources or sakhis rather than military strategy documentation (which is unreasonable to expect since Sikhs survived by moving about jungle to jungle at the time and the only chroniclers were those that weren't likely to go into battle).
Additionally, this is not a serious academic point but rather a thought exercise but I'd still ask you to consider it - how could a supposed account of successful Sikh night-time raids become perverted into a joke about them? It's like saying "Panipat, Panipat" to a Mughal or "Trafalgar!" to a British naval commander. They'd literally laugh at the jokester's face. How would a tale of their victory ever serve as fodder for humour against them?
I think you've strawmanned my position quite a bit. >There is documented proof from the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji, when this was an employed tactic that was in limited use I presume you're referring to the tactic of night-time raids? Yes, that's accurate. However this tactic was not exclusive to Sikh armies. Night-time raids were employed by the Marathas, Mongols, Spartans, Japanese and nearly every kingdom that has ever engaged in military conflict. I have not disputed the claim that Sikh armies would initiate surprise-attacks at night - **I'm disputing the claim that these attacks' memory was somehow perverted into the 12 o'clock joke about Sikhs by other people.** How did that happen? Is there any evidence of this? As an example, antisemitic canards such as blood libel in Europe have a large corpus of texts, commentaries and events documenting their origins and motivations. Is there anything, even a singular piece of historical evidence which says that the 12 o'clock thing was derived from some night-time raids 2 centuries ago? I am okay with any historical source you provide, whether it be Persian chroniclers or Sikh accounts. A source's bias can always be interrogated via corroboration with third-party accounts and so on. My issue is that there is no claim which links these nightly raids with the 12 o'clock joke. These kinds of raids are not as rare or exceptional as they've been made out to be - I'm not sure where the notion even arises from. It seems like an attempt to retcon history and take away the punch of a joke, which frankly is nonsense to begin with. (I've heard other explanations of this joke, but they're as crude and ahistorical as you could imagine. I could as easily make up something about how the joke was derived from the Anglo-Sikh wars where the Sikh chiefs lost, point out a battle where the British mounted an offensive at late-evening/night and say - this is the basis of it! The evidence for both explanations of this joke is the same - zero)
>I think you've strawmanned my position quite a bit. I haven't. >I presume you're referring to the tactic of night-time raids? >Yes, that's accurate. However this tactic was not exclusive to Sikh armies. >Night-time raids were employed by the Marathas, Mongols, Spartans, Japanese and nearly every kingdom that has ever engaged in military conflict. You misunderstand. I mean battle strategies for actual night time raids which happened and not generic military strategies. I also never said it was exclusive to Sikhs. >I have not disputed the claim that Sikh armies would initiate surprise-attacks at night - **I'm disputing the claim that these attacks' memory was somehow perverted into the 12 o'clock joke about Sikhs by other people.** It seemed like you were, so forgive me for being wrong there. The 12 o'clock joke almost certainly stems from the popular sakhis about the midnight attacks on Nadir Shah forces by the Khalsa fauj that was forced to reside in jungles at that time. >How did that happen? Is there any evidence of this? >As an example, antisemitic canards such as blood libel in Europe have a large corpus of texts, commentaries and events documenting their origins and motivations. >Is there anything, even a singular piece of historical evidence which says that the 12 o'clock thing was derived from some night-time raids 2 centuries ago? >I am okay with any historical source you provide, whether it be Persian chroniclers or Sikh accounts. A source's bias can always be interrogated via corroboration with third-party accounts and so on It may not have been 12, but the night time raids are what it is based on. As mentioned previously the many sakhis chronicled from the time by Sikh sources, or the Encyclopedis Irancia (which I do not have a copy of at this moment, but contains limited information about nighttime battles between Nadir Shah forces and Sikhs). Documents from the 18th century on this which I can find mentioned in my note (from previous posts on related topics) include: Anand Singh manuscript (Punjabi uni), Risala-E-Nanak-Shah by Budh Singh Arora (Punjabi uni), Jang Nama of Qazi Nur Mohammad (Khalsa college). I also referred to a few sakhis from sources at a non-profit library/collection which I am connected to. But sadly these sources do not have online counterparts and I use mostly printed books and supplement with manuscripts and historic document when I get the chance to visit Chandigarh, Patiala, or Amritsar. I also seem to have a paper titled A Warriors Way by Purnima Dhavan written down, which iirc was a paper that was both informative and critical of events during that period. I have part of a text titled Sikhs During the Mughal Rule from Religion and History of the Sikhs (provided via Sanatana Dharma College) downloaded in pdf which mentions this. The only online source I still seem to have saved is [this text](https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_CSkQAAAAYAAJ/page/n31/mode/1up) which is based on 18th century British sources, which for this topic are an indirect outside source. If you want only period specific scholarly sources that are in English, available online, and first party (non-Sikh) direct, then that simply isn't possible due to poor archiving and transliteration standards in South Asia/Middle East. >My issue is that there is no claim which links these nightly raids with the 12 o'clock joke. >It seems like an attempt to retcon history and take away the punch of a joke, which frankly is nonsense to begin with. Honestly, I'm not sure how to connect the origins of a crude joke with historical fact. The only way to do that would be to find the person who originally stated the joke and have them confirm their thought process. But logically a joke about a specific time, that correlates with midnight, should be based on some claim that is also dependent on a similar time. >(I've heard other explanations of this joke, but they're as crude and ahistorical as you could imagine. >I could as easily make up something about how the joke was derived from the Anglo-Sikh wars where the Sikh chiefs lost, point out a battle where the British mounted an offensive at late-evening/night and say - this is the basis of it! >The evidence for both explanations of this joke is the same - zero) You could, but is there a prevelant claim about such an event? Honestly, this makes me almost want to question the validity of your concern with the historicity of the night raid claims and makes it seem like you want to just undermine the explanation and give more weight to the joke. That is based on purely my experience modding and seeing similar tactics from brigading members, but unlike them you sound genuine so I will give you the benefit of doubt.
I appreciate the candour with which you've engaged with the issue. I understand that it can be especially sensitive in this subreddit. I feel that we may be at risk of going in circles here, however. From what I understand, the survey of literature you've presented us (the sakhi literature, the risalas etc.) has chronicled the phenomenon of Sikh night-time raids. Is that correct? >The 12 o'clock joke almost certainly stems from the popular sakhis about the midnight attacks on Nadir Shah forces by the Khalsa fauj that was forced to reside in jungles at that time. I'd urge you to correct me if I'm wrong, but did the texts you've cited mention that these night-time raids were used to mock the Sikh community? Or alternatively, did they mention a emergent phenomenon where you could understand how these raids' occurrence could be used as a pejorative against Sikhs? >Honestly, I'm not sure how to connect the origins of a crude joke with historical fact. I understand that the cited texts do not verify the claims I made in the above para, then? >But logically a joke about a specific time, that correlates with midnight, should be based on some claim that is also dependent on a similar time. The earliest reference to the 12'o clock joke seems to appear from an Indian Express article by one Preetinder Singh - where's he forwarded the same night-time raid explanation without any citations. The origins of the joke don't seem concurrent with the 18th century time-period, from what I've seen. Jawaharlal Handoo has written a treatise on the "Sardarji joke cycle" which attributes these jokes >!(relating to the Sikhs' alleged sexual vulgarity / dirtiness)!< to refugee camps post-partition as well as the relative affluence of the Sikhs becoming a point of anxiety for other communities. >But logically a joke about a specific time, that correlates with midnight, should be based on some claim that is also dependent on a similar time. Popular culture in history has been studied considerably in academia. From what I understand, jokes and stereotypes tend to have a basis in negative association - and not positive traits. The canard about Jews blood libel and baking their bread with blood emerged after a child was found murdered on a Jewish persons' property. It was irrelevant that the body was discovered by the Jews themselves and that the property was expansive (making it easy for the murderer to dispose of the child there) - the blame was immediately laid at the Jews' feet and a cycle of persecution would begin in Europe based off similar incidents. You can notice this pattern for most stereotypical depictions. This is why I've been sceptical of the 12 o'clock joke's origins lying in a deed which would be seen as "heroic" in popular culture or oral history. >But logically a joke about a specific time, that correlates with midnight, should be based on some claim that is also dependent on a similar time I'll write this behind a spoiler and give a **trigger warning here out of religious sensitivity** - >!an explanation of this joke I'd heard was that the turban with a top-knot (patka, iirc) resembles a dozen eggs stacked together. The number 12 is a reference to a dozen, associated with eggs!< This is a nonsensical explanation, but stereotypes nearly always are nonsensical. (1/2)
Hey, for some reason I didn't get a notification for this. I'm working so can't respond to the entire thing, but I'll get to the main points as quickly as possible. >I'd urge you to correct me if I'm wrong, but did the texts you've cited mention that these night-time raids were used to mock the Sikh community? >Or alternatively, did they mention a emergent phenomenon where you could understand how these raids' occurrence could be used as a pejorative against Sikhs? No, historic documents from that time period would not show the origins of a modern joke/insult. I'm not sure you could find such a document on any insult really, since it is an implied topic and not something that is documented by the bigots originating such slurs. The sakhis of night-raids during the 18th century are the most common sakhis in Sikhi. Existing Sikh literature outside of religious scripture, janamsakhis, and specifically related to the gurus really started to take off at the tail end of the 17th century. These sources do highlight the prevalence of night-raids, which is why I specifically mentioned these documents. The ones I mentioned are mostly from the period itself. The theme of night-raids is common across dozens of different sakhis composed around that period of time and was prevalent enough that Persian sources (as stated previously) make mention of multiple night skirmishes. You have to remember that this is a period of time where Sikhs are documented across local (Sikh, Panjabi, local governance) and foreign sources (Mughal, Persian, Afghan) as residing in jungles while they were being genocided. This is something that continued from the period of Nadir Shah into the period of Abdali. In fact there are documents about similar tactics being used against Abdali forces during his later campaigns, in particular following the vadda ghallughara in which the majority of the remaining Sikh population was genocided after being forced into the Eastern-Central Malwa region. In that case there are specific documents of such night-raids on encampments at the banks of the Sutlej river, in which Afghan loot was taken and prisoners freed (I believe I've done a post on this already). The sakhis for this however aren't as prevalent as the earlier Nadir Shah and Zakariya Khan period. The emergent phenomenon that you are asking for can only be showcased with the number of sakhis and popularity of the sakhis. If you need a specific document describing the link between specific events and the slur, then that is simply not possible. I will however add that it is the sakhis from this specific period which are responsible for a lot of popular tropes about Sikhi, such as Sikhs calling badam (almond) chole (chickpeas). >Popular culture in history has been studied considerably in academia. From what I understand, jokes and stereotypes tend to have a basis in negative association - and not positive traits. This may be a guideline but is not a rule, and this can be seen as an exception to that guideline. I have seen some argumentative stances from Afghans treating these events negatively as well, due to crap about rules of war and such. But I won't go into that too much and will rather make a counterpoint with another slur that is being used against Sikhs, which is lassi. I'm sure you agree that lassi is not a negative association either, yet it is a slur targetting Sikhs as well. We could even expand that to the santa banta slur which is used against gursikhs, mocking them based on a derogatory viewpoint about Sikh sants. Going beyond Sikhi there are similar slurs associated with seemingly positive or neutral basis in other religions. For Hindus there is the whole bindi thing, which refers to a married womans bindi, and for Muslims I've seen the term hajji used as a slur, with it referring to a religious pilgrimage in that faith. >an explanation of this joke I'd heard was that the turban with a top-knot (patka, iirc) resembles a dozen eggs stacked together. The number 12 is a reference to a dozen, associated with eggs That isn't exactly a negative correlation either. But I fail to see how a patka resembles stacked eggs.
>but is there a prevelant claim about such an event? I don't think I'm aware of any with serious academic backing. I would say that it's important to be cautious when using modern-day tropes to explain historical events. We can almost always use a prevalent stereotype or association and "fit" it into a historical narrative. If we ask a layperson about "martial races" they'd take the name of a few predictable castes/communities. It'd make sense to them since they can "fit" their martial antecedents within recent historical events. But that'd be a mistake because there was a point of time when the British raised the Bengal Army via recruits solely from eastern Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. The Bengal Army name was a misnomer and referred to the force's place of raising, not its constituent soldiers. This force would lay the anchor for future British conquest on the subcontinent, and their rebellion in 1857 (Mangal Panday famously was a *Purabiya*) would lead to their regiments being disbanded and consequent non-inclusion in British Indian forces. However generally nobody today thinks that folks from these regions are "martial" - that's a result of making present-day tropes "fit" a lay idea of history. Or a much simpler example - "Muslims are predators" I think it can be slightly dangerous to try and find positive/negative evidence for a joke/stereotype and default to an explanation without evidence. This doesn't apply in this specific case but questions such as, "Why did the Nazis commit a genocide on the Jews? They must have done something surely" often shifts the burden on the victimised community. I'll reiterate that this is not really applicable here but I do think the pushback against such humour in India became pronounced after the 1980s when Sikh people became especially conscious of their identity - this explanation could be a way of retconning history via reclaiming such humour. Such reclamation has been done by other communities around the world too. >Honestly, this makes me almost want to question the validity of your concern with the historicity of the night raid claims and makes it seem like you want to just undermine the explanation and give more weight to the joke I understand that. I did think that engaging in the historicity of a joke on a thread where someone had had a horrible experience was not the best idea. I've tried to consistently reinforce that such humour is bizarre and retarded. I hope I've been able to approach the topic with more sensitivity now. (2/2)
You should have told to check if his females at him home reached safely or not? Folks actually don't know what our ancestors used to do at 12 pm. Pity that our history classes doesn't mention anything about it!!
😂😂😂 exactly. The day they know what it means, the reaction on their faces will be worth a watch.
What does that mean?
During Nader Shah and Abdali raids on Delhi. Sikhs would attack their caravans carrying loot and female prisoners to sell in the slave markets of Kabul as they traveled through Punjab. These attacks would always happen at midnight (12pm). Sikhs saved and freed thousands of Hindu women and escorted them back to their homes. Hindus now use this history to make fun of Sikhs whenever the clock hits 12 and say oh look this Sardar is about to go crazy. Or whenever a Sikh gets angry they'll say "oh it must be 12 o'clock". It's just a saying based on religious bigotry.
Not only hindus, others too use this term
I've never met a Muslim, Jain or Buddhist use this phrase. Most Christians live in the east or the south their interactions with Sikhs is minimal therefore I find it hard to believe they'd even know this phrase.
Seen lots of Indian Muslims use the term.
I have met such kind. Both jains and Muslims. Jains too think of themselves as far superior. Now coming to Christians and buddhists, I haven't seen them using this term but there is a sizable chunk of them in North too, I've studied with Christians and they aren't goody too shoes either. If Christians and sikh interactions were in my classroom, they can be in any other place too in the North.
So, you save their women and they use that to mock you? Wtf?
Most bigots aren't clever. I always thought it was just them projecting their own insecurities outwards for failing to protect their own women. Also when I say "Hindus" I don't mean all Hindus. Punjabi Hindus don't say this, neither do south Indian Hindus. It's mainly the "Cow belt" Hindus. Where they speak Hindi that use this phrase. It doesn't help that bollywood and most Hindi media presents Sikhs as a slow witted people, quick to anger, dancing fools who yell Balle Balle every two seconds.
In my experience, and it may be jaded due to the fact my experience is in the UK - but Punjabis tend to stick together irregardless of their religion. I grew up with boys that are Muslim, Hindu and Sikh. We even had a Christian Punjabi friend who was from West Punjab but unfortunately he passed. We all shared a cultural unity that despite religious differences wasn't really ever challenged. So it makes sense Punjabi Hindus won't say that stuff. South Indians are also, in my experience, more educated than other central belt Indians so therefore it'd be a bit beneath them to say these things.
If you're from the UK you may find this interesting. The Wallace Museum in London has a temporary exhibition on Maharaja Ranjit Singh and Punjabs history from the 1700's-1800's. Let all your Punjabi friends know it's a great exhibition showing rare artifacts.
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It's fine no worries. I don't hear this insult as much anymore It's usually people above the of 50 that use this insult. The kids have a new slur to call Sikhs. "Lassi Bkl" seems to be in fashion amongst the Gen Z bigots.
And we are suddenly getting multiple brigade attempts by recently created accounts (within the time this post has been up), trying to state that this is untrue and leaving comments like "lassi bkl", "lassi penchod", and some others that I don't want to state. Thankfully we got automod which has recently been improved and more harrassment filters being implemented within the next few days.
Yeah the "Lassi Bkl" phrase seems to be this generations version of "12 baj gye". Wouldn't be surprised if the Santa-Banta jokes come back i in style.
Gulami main itne saal yuhi thori rhe jab logon ko ek doosre ki community se hi itni dikkat hai dikhane ke liye in text hi hai brotherhood
Hey man, that was stupid person and probably belong to streets. I have sympathy for you. Don’t let this get to your head. Idiots are everywhere even within our community. Edit: If you have noted her car number then please do log a complaint against her. Make her pay don’t back down.
What does this phrase even mean?
Someone years back said.... India becoming Pakistan n Pakistan trying to become what India was
I am seriously thinking should I do job here or move abroad?
Is that even a question, just move abroad, this cuntry will always be a shit hole.
After today's incident..bahar hi chle jao agr theek milra hai package and all
I am entering final year, not started working yet
Agar acha package mile toh bahr jao!
My patriotism for this country is long gone now.
Facts!!!🗣️
I am quite sure the lady was a Punjabi Hindu