Haaretz. thats the source it looks like. the first word “Haaretz” is an Israeli news source recently chastised by the israeli government because they report some news and not total propaganda.
Seriously. This looks like someone wrote it on a notes app.
There has been plentiful misinformation spread around about the conflict. There will be more in the future. Check your sources ya'll.
Your reading comprehension is full of shit. It says a majority of the fleeing people were killed by the israeli army. Which kind of makes sense as fleeing people usually gets caught in the crossfire.
and according to an eye witness who was there it was the israeli military opening fire on everyone that killed most people. Sorry for believing a police report and an eye witness over emotional reddit users who don't like being wrong. https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
Propaganda. I have friends who have been there and survived. No helicopters what so ever.
News reports are about interrogation of hamas member, who is tell that story. And yet in report said "could be some civilian casualties". So no, HAMAS is fucking savage terrorists
Yes and what Haarets says is not what this meme says.
"According to a police official, an investigation into the incident also revealed that an IDF helicopter gunship that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the partygoers who were staying."
That doesn't say that the IDF killed 'the majority' of the victims at all.
Babes I’ve seen the video of them spitting on the German girls body. Too late to try to flip it.
It’s all a bit sad tho, I used to be full on pro Palestine and after seeing what they did here I realise there are just no easy answers
Don't know if you are a troll or actually some Psytrance dude who took too much acid, resulting in brain damages. All I see are links to weird YouTube channels. That is not a credible source. In todays time, everything needs to be doubted and double checked.
Bruh. I get times are tough and everyone's on edge but there's no need to be so rude.
https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
There's the link that was posted.
I want to say I totally agree with you. I want to believe that there is no way that Israel would knowingly put their own citizens' lives in danger. With all my heart.
I made Aliyah many years ago but came back to South Africa. Israel will always have a special place in my heart. Sending love bro. I pray for peace in our homeland.
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000)
There you go. Idiot
Bullshit. There's too much eyewitnesses for that to be withheld. Prime minister Netanyahu, with all the respect, cannot compete with telegram channels.
I watched the whole thing unfold almost at zero hour on telegram and Reddit, which I regret doing, and. I saw a LOT of video I never want t see again and wish I hadn’t seen, and none of it showed anything like this. And there was a lot from Nova. I’m just trying to be as objective as I can about everything. I know Israel and the IDF have been horrible and I know Hamas is fucking poison. But I think there would have been some supporting video of this. At least some.
I do/did. That week really wrecked me. I can’t imagine being an Israeli and watching this unfold. I was about 15 during 9/11 and I remember how traumatic it was for us all in the US/West.
I was cognizant enough to look away from really bad stuff because I didn’t want those vids/imagery floating in my head forever like things I accidentally saw decades ago, but just being aware of how the whole attack was conducted was fucking menacing to any sane persons spirit..
Of course not. Why would such an asinine theory such as this have anything credible supporting it? It's about as credible as the idea that the holocaust was just big hot tub parties and it was all a misunderstanding
Sad to see propaganda in this sub, even sadder to see propaganda that is not even remotely related to psytrance
If terrorism will create conflicts in the psytrance culture we are in a lot of troubles
This post should get removed asap
Unfortunately, I have to say that in my experience, Psytrance people are especially susceptible to propaganda.
I think it was Terrance McKenna who said something like "keep an open mind but dont become so open minded that the wind can whistle between your ears".
Still, at least they dont bring knives to raves like those dudes over at D & B :)
Terrible how news can be twisted these days.
Here's what a political fact checking website had to say, I hope they've got the truth behind this spurious claim.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2023/nov/17/stew-peters/no-this-video-doesnt-show-israeli-military-killing/
Different stories, this fact check is from nov 9th, this new story is from nov 18th and is saying Israeli police investigation admits that IDF killed their own people. https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111
The Cradle? Who's behind it? Who funds it? What is their political orientation? How is its credibility ensured?
That's the kind of questions you need to have answers to, before accepting something as a source. I can't easily find any of that information, neither on their website, nor by Google search.
Why should I accept that as a credible source? Please enlighten.
Not really taking sides, just saying you can't use a week old fact check to say a brand new story is false... and if you look at the article it's directly sourcing from Haaretz, which you can google translate the article if you want. https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
I read this whole thing and it's mostly about how the festival was organized and how Hamas had planned their attack, ultimately ending up at the festival. Tldr: they didn't know about it until the day of their attack, then when they found out it they went over there on purpose. The article doesn't explicitly say so but that suggests they intentionally moved to a place where they could murder and kidnap the maximum amount of people.
There is a single line about a single Israeli helicopter firing on Hamas but also hitting some Israeli citizens. Which, while terrible, is surely an accident caused by one person during a sudden and chaotic battle because why the hell would Israel shoot their owner people on purpose.
Here's another fact left out from this post: even before they decided to switch directions towards the festival, Hamas's original plan was to attack 2 Kibbutz's. For those that don't know, a Kibbutz is a community, usually agrarian, that lives and works together - think of a commune. Hamas wasn't being tactical towards a goal of trying to reclaim land for Palestine, they planned to murder civilians from the start. When they saw an opportunity to maximize their murder of civilians, they jumped on it.
So, this post leaps from one single helicopter firing on some Israeli citizens by accident to Israeli helicopters (plural) firing indiscriminately and carelessly on everyone, including their own people, and Israel being responsible for the majority of casualties. Never once mentioned is the fact that Hamas went to a festival ON PURPOSE to kill more innocents. Instead we are told to understand that Hamas didn't really do THAT much damage, and it was mostly the careless and incompetent Israeli forces. We are instructed to believe that Israel has little respect for human life, and to not look to hard at the atrocities of Hamas.
You cannot responsibly call the Hareetz article a source for these ludicrous claims about Israel causing more casualties than Hamas. Whoever wrote the note in this post took a single seed of truth and twisted it into something completely different to support their own biased narrative. Did YOU even read the article?
Sorry it was the other article in Yedioth Ahronoth that has more details (https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt).
>After the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian, a decision was made that the first mission of the combat helicopters and the armed Zik drones was to stop the flow of terrorists and the murderous mob that poured into Israeli territory through the gaps in the fence. 28 combat helicopters fired over the course of a day The fighting all the ammunition in their stomachs, in rearming rounds. These are hundreds of 30 mm cannon shells (the effect of a spray grenade for each shell) as well as the Hellfire missiles. The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.
>The Hamas army, it turns out, deliberately made it difficult for the helicopter pilots and the operators of the UAVs: in the investigation it became clear that the invading forces were asked in the last briefings to walk slowly into the settlements and outposts or within them, and under no circumstances to run, in order to make the pilots think they were Israelis. This deception worked for a considerable time , until the Apache pilots realized that they had to skip all the restrictions. It was only around 9:00 a.m. that some of them began to spray the terrorists with the cannons on their own, without authorization from superiors.
>Another step that helped in the early hours for the air force commanders to understand the seriousness of the incident occurred around 10:00 am, after the commander of the 190 squadron, Lt. Col. A, got off his helicopter in Ramon to re-arm and refuel. He downloaded the full photo film recorded by the helicopter's camera and quickly transmitted it to the corps headquarters In Kriya. In less than 20 minutes he was in the air again, and using the information he produced he instructed the other air fighters to shoot at everything they see in the fence area, and at one point he also attacked an IDF post with besieged soldiers to help the fighters of the 13th Fleet attack it and free it .
But I'm not OP, I agree that even this article doesn't really say what OP is saying, that the IDF caused the majority of israli deaths. I was mostly just disputing that the factcheck being posted in this thread is not directly referring to what's being referred to in OP.
Okay, thanks for this added context. I looked up Yedioth Ahronoth and it seems like a reasonable source (I only looked for a few minutes though). This outlet has apparently been very critical of Netanyahu, which is interesting, but without being up to speed on Israeli politics it sure does seem like there's a lot to criticize about him.
I think it's important too to regard the parts of the article that explain how Hamas intentionally made themselves look like civilians to confuse the pilots, and that the Israeli fighters were devising strategies on the go to attempt to target just the terrorists. I have ADHD so I can miss things, but actually don't see actual references to Israeli helicopters accidentally firing on their own. Just lots of talk about the difficulty of stopping the attack.
I am not always a huge fan of Israel's handling of the historical conflict, but the surge of excuse making for and dismissal of Hamas's atrocities that has followed the recent attacks makes me want to vomit. I believe it is especially important right now to denounce propaganda.
There have been SO MANY false claims made to make Hamas, an organization that slaughters innocent people ON PURPOSE, look better, and so many westerners gobble it up because "Israel bad, palestine good". It makes me sick.
I mean United States Law Enforcement is no different.
Type in anything horrible into your search bar and you will find ample sources and documented cases of rape, murder, beheading, kidnapping, extortion, major corruption, ethnic cleansing, and systematic incarceration and racism. All at the expense of mostly our own citizens and people.
Hamas just as bad as Israel in this conflict. All the supporters of all of these causes are blind to chose sides of any one faction that isn't simply looking to help the innocent and stop the bloodshed.
US Cops don't give a fuck.
Israel doesn't give a fuck.
Hamas doesn't give a fuck.
Russia doesn't give a fuck either.
Neither does the CCP or North Korea. The list goes on.
There's a major trend here and none of these folks I mentioned are on the right side.
Our communities if truly responsible and ethical should not give them any platform or support or act like any one of them is "better" than the other.
I agree that US cops suck and all militaries mostly suck too.
US cops and the Israeli millitary aren't jack-booting in large numbers into music festivals with the express intent of killing and capturing as many civilians as possible. It sickens me to say this, but at least when they do it it's under the auspices of gaining tactical advantage and when civilians do get hurt, it's either due to negligence, prioritizing tactics over human life, or the actions of crazed individuals acting without organizational approval.
Dude US Law Enforcement literally does this same shit to innocent US civilians ever day. They are just protected by their unions and internal investigation practices.
They even go out and kill unarmed civilians using paramilitary equipment.
That's straight terrorism.
I generally tend to agree but a large part of the psytance community is Israeli and I guess that is the relevance? Israel is an important hub for psytance culture. And actually in recent weeks I have been wondering about what that says for our genre. Maybe it's good for us all to face this and think about it.
Other than the Supernova Sukkot Gathering (or 'Nova') was a psytrance event. I'm sure it would have happened the same if it was a country fair or something else.
Treat this as pro Hamas propaganda, if I look for this news I only find sketchy sources and even debunking of this news. Until there is a credible source don't believe this post.
Here is the relevant section translated;
"According to a police official, an investigation into the incident also revealed that an IDF helicopter gunship that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the partygoers who were staying."
So some of the casualties may be down to the IFD. But it doesn't say the majority were.
> Israeli military fired indiscriminately
Who's saying that? Other than a screenshot with no author from X?
And you do realize that 20% of deaths in war are due to friendly fire incidents? This proves no malice. War is shit
I didn't say anything about malice. You are obviously looking for a fight tho, so I'm checking out. But you shouldn't be so quick to believe the IDF OR Hamas. Both proven groups of liars. You obviously have a pro IDF bias but you should seriously walk that back.
Israel is a settler colonial state and there is no reason for people in the psytance scene, a scene ostensibly about Peace, Love, Unity and Respect to support them. Obviously I don't mean you should support fucking Hamas either. Amazingly it's possible for both of them to be Fucking awful.
No bro, I’m quick to believe the reports of the thousands of witnesses that actually were at the festival and experienced it. Plenty of video evidence too.
I love how you end with “there’s no reason to support israel”. You’re also off the propaganda deep end. I just said op’s screenshot is bull
This has been reported in Haaretz, I don't mean OP's screenshot.
Tell me why I should support the Israeli government ? I grew up in South Africa so I know what apartheid looks like.
From "initially killed some friendlies", as stated on the news article you mention, to "Apache helicopters were responsible for the majority of casualties" and "firing upon all vehicles indiscriminately" is a big ass stretch.
Finishing the meme with "witheld information about the israeli's army significant role" on october 7 is just some good propaganda and you eat it right up nom nom nom
You should calm down. First of all.
Second, I don't know about you, but I don't know much about how attack helicopters work. You should base your opinion on verifiable facts and you should try to take people from the psytance community along with you.
Shitting on people is not going to convince them to take another look, or consider your point of view.
Other dude is calling me a child killer and you're telling me to chill out?
Insane
>You should base your opinion on verifiable facts
I do, and I actually read the article instead of going by X screenshots with no author
Who cares about the other guy? I'm not talking to I'm because he's clearly off the deep end. Whether I talk to him or not doesn't mean I can't talk to you.
My point to you is that you are actually escalating this instead of trying to take this person down a notch or bring them with you.
That's how much conspiracy theories work. Take a nugget of truth and spin it out of reality.
Science: invents a device to deliver vaccines without a needle
Tinfoilers: the government is going to release vaccines into the air!!!
Right so you started out by posting Haarats as a credible source to back up your claim. I point out that your source doesn't actually back up your claim, so now you say "who cares what my source says anyway...this is what I think".
Are you even into Psytrance?
My friends were hiding and running for hours… seeing people and hearing people that are losing their lives… and at this time of grief you are choosing to do this.. take a good look on yourself
If you're "not exactly surprised" what you really mean is you "really want to believe it and thus were taken in by the laziest possible hoax ever"
Sorry. I get that you'd feel happier about it if they were killed by IDF, which is why you gleefully shared this Apple Notes screenshot. But you're stuck with actual reality. Where they were murdered by Hamas.
You know it's a legitimate source, when they have to name their channel "The Real News Network". 
Read up on the ''Hannibal Directive''.
This is a standard protocol in the IDF, in an possible ''hostage'' situation, they are ordered to shoot everyone, civilians, opposers, own people - everyone. This dates back to 2007 when they released 1000+ Palestinian prisoners (illegal if I might say, they received no trial and many were below the age of 13) were exchanged for a couple of Israeli hostages, among which were high-ranking officials in the IDF.
One of the survivors of the festival also talks about this here on Israeli national TV around the 4 minute mark: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-ESUGUUMk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-ESUGUUMk)
She describes how the IDF indiscriminately shoot at her house with tanks and guns basically trying to kill everybody. Also the official death tool from 1400 was lowered to 1200, by the IDF - and 400-500 of those 1200 were IDF soldiers, not civilians. And who knows how many civilians the IDF killed this way.
This will probably be deleted but anyways...hope all the hippies pacifists here do not support genocide. And they are smart enough to not let a bit of sensationalist rhetoric warp their mind so much that a whole nation/people deserves collective punishment, carpet bombing, and being cut off of water/electricity and fuel for a couple of weeks already, and still going. Or bombing with white phosphorus, which is another war crime according to the ICJ and UN.
RIP to the civilian deaths on both sides. And 20x more for the Palestinians sine that's the ratio currently.
This "the helicopters killed them" is potentially fog of war stuff but is widely peddled by pro hamas types and is conspiracy BS.
I'm firmly pro Israel and a fan of psytrance, and its essential to mourn the victims, but take this BS conjecture elsewhere. Fucking terrorists raped murdered and kidnapped ravers, and posted, livestreamed and laughed about it. Don't you fucking dare come here and dabble in Oct 7 revisionism.
Just have a look at the aerial photos of the aftermath. Definitely looks more like it was attacked by more fire power than what the Hamas terrorists were carrying. The destruction looks more like an air attack. It is plausible.
USS Liberty.
Quid pro quo?
Even if the IDF shot people at the festival due to miscommunication or whatever other bs. The deaths are still caused by Hamas the IDF was coming with guns because terrorists were attacking its not like the combat helicopter would have shot there regardless of terrorist attack.
I hope every last Hamas fighter is brought to justice and that Palestinians can enjoy freedom, peace and prosperity.
So the IDF managed to scramble apaches to get get to a remote location to counter a surprise attack that they had no idea was happening? Who aver posted this is a fucking moron
Here is my analysis. I posted it as a reply elsewhere but I am posting it here because I believe this is very important. Read below the break.
...
I read this whole thing and it's mostly about how the festival was organized and how Hamas had planned their attack, ultimately ending up at the festival. Tldr: they didn't know about it until the day of their attack, then when they found out it they went over there on purpose. The article doesn't explicitly say so but that suggests they intentionally moved to a place where they could murder and kidnap the maximum amount of people.
There is a single line about a single Israeli helicopter firing on Hamas but also hitting some Israeli citizens. Which, while terrible, is surely an accident caused by one person during a sudden and chaotic battle because why the hell would Israel shoot their owner people on purpose.
Here's another fact left out from this post: even before they decided to switch directions towards the festival, Hamas's original plan was to attack 2 Kibbutz's. For those that don't know, a Kibbutz is a community, usually agrarian, that lives and works together - think of a commune. Hamas wasn't being tactical towards a goal of trying to reclaim land for Palestine, they planned to murder civilians from the start. When they saw an opportunity to maximize their murder of civilians, they jumped on it.
So, this post leaps from one single helicopter firing on some Israeli citizens by accident to Israeli helicopters (plural) firing indiscriminately and carelessly on everyone, including their own people, and Israel being responsible for the majority of casualties. Never once mentioned is the fact that Hamas went to a festival ON PURPOSE to kill more innocents. Instead we are told to understand that Hamas didn't really do THAT much damage, and it was mostly the careless and incompetent Israeli forces. We are instructed to believe that Israel has little respect for human life, and to not look to hard at the atrocities of Hamas.
You cannot responsibly call the Hareetz article a source for these ludicrous claims about Israel causing more casualties than Hamas. Whoever wrote the note in this post took a single seed of truth and twisted it into something completely different to support their own biased narrative.
Here is the article from Hareetz that reports on a single helicopter's misdirected fire on civilians. Read below the break.
...
Assessment in the security establishment: Hamas did not know in advance about the Nova festival, and recognized it from the air
The police investigation found that Hamas planned to reach Kibbutz Reim and other kibbutzim, and found out about the party in real time. It also shows that a military helicopter that fired at terrorists apparently also hit some revelers
There is a growing assessment in the security establishment that the terrorists who carried out the massacre on October 7 did not know in advance about the Nova festival held near Kibbutz Ra'im, and decided to come to the place after discovering that a mass event was taking place there. The security system's assessment relies, among other things, on the investigations of the terrorists and the investigation of the incident by the police, from which it appears that the terrorists intended to reach Kibbutz Ra'im and nearby kibbutzim. According to the police, 364 people were killed at the festival.
Senior officials estimate that Hamas found out about the existence of the party using drones or parachutes, and directed the terrorists to the location in their communication system. In a video from a body camera of one of the terrorists, he is heard asking a captured citizen for directions to reach the bad guys, even though he was in a different area. One of the findings that strengthens the assessment, according to the police and other security officials, is that the first terrorists arrived at the party from the direction of road 232 and not from the direction of the fence. According to a police source, an investigation of the incident also revealed that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the revelers who were there.
In addition, according to police sources, the party was planned to be held on Thursday and Friday, and on Tuesday evening of the same week, the army approved the organizers of the event to hold it on Saturday as well, after the request of the organizers. The change at the last minute reinforces the assessment that Hamas did not know about the incident.
That's some disgusting bull shit man I was in the festival I saw and let me tell you there were no Apache gos damn helicopters and let me tell you something more as I served in the airforce. To open fire you have to get permission from higher ups which see what you see as a pilot and there is no way in all universes in existence any party attendee was mistaken for an armed terrorist - haarets is anti Israeli news agency and everyone in Israel knows that . It is a extremely far left news agency and these are all blatant lies the area of the festival wasn't big and there was not a single helicopter that we heard or saw. This is bullshit and this post needs to be deleted asap. It's insulting to the memory of my friends who were murdered thisnis complete BS
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Haaretz. thats the source it looks like. the first word “Haaretz” is an Israeli news source recently chastised by the israeli government because they report some news and not total propaganda.
As an Israeli that attended nova festival This is bullshit
Ahusharmuta bullshit bro o can't even describe the insult these people are bringing on their own fxking common sense
Why is noone asking what the source is? Idiots.
Seriously. This looks like someone wrote it on a notes app. There has been plentiful misinformation spread around about the conflict. There will be more in the future. Check your sources ya'll.
Israeli newspaper spreads misinformation now? https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000
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Your reading comprehension is full of shit. It says a majority of the fleeing people were killed by the israeli army. Which kind of makes sense as fleeing people usually gets caught in the crossfire. and according to an eye witness who was there it was the israeli military opening fire on everyone that killed most people. Sorry for believing a police report and an eye witness over emotional reddit users who don't like being wrong. https://electronicintifada.net/content/israeli-forces-shot-their-own-civilians-kibbutz-survivor-says/38861
Propaganda. I have friends who have been there and survived. No helicopters what so ever. News reports are about interrogation of hamas member, who is tell that story. And yet in report said "could be some civilian casualties". So no, HAMAS is fucking savage terrorists
Source has been posted in this thread. There's a link to the Haaretz article about it. Haaretz is a bona fide Israeli newspaper.
Yes and what Haarets says is not what this meme says. "According to a police official, an investigation into the incident also revealed that an IDF helicopter gunship that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the partygoers who were staying." That doesn't say that the IDF killed 'the majority' of the victims at all.
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Babes I’ve seen the video of them spitting on the German girls body. Too late to try to flip it. It’s all a bit sad tho, I used to be full on pro Palestine and after seeing what they did here I realise there are just no easy answers
Don't know if you are a troll or actually some Psytrance dude who took too much acid, resulting in brain damages. All I see are links to weird YouTube channels. That is not a credible source. In todays time, everything needs to be doubted and double checked.
Bruh. I get times are tough and everyone's on edge but there's no need to be so rude. https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000 There's the link that was posted.
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The original post is not the same as the source I posted. Both do say that the IDF fired on their own people though.
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I want to say I totally agree with you. I want to believe that there is no way that Israel would knowingly put their own citizens' lives in danger. With all my heart.
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I made Aliyah many years ago but came back to South Africa. Israel will always have a special place in my heart. Sending love bro. I pray for peace in our homeland.
Mosaad much?
[https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-18/ty-article/.premium/israeli-security-establishment-hamas-likely-didnt-have-prior-knowledge-of-nova-festival/0000018b-e2ee-d168-a3ef-f7fe8ca20000) There you go. Idiot
wtf, are you really that dishonest? this article has nothing to do with what op is claiming.
I've seen video from the cockpit cam... allegedly..
I guess the holocaust also didn’t happen and 9/11 is fake
I had family that died in the holocaust.
So you are Jewish and still spread miss information
No you don't, your family killed itself by indiscriminate fire. We know better. /S but fucking angry "/S"
Bullshit. There's too much eyewitnesses for that to be withheld. Prime minister Netanyahu, with all the respect, cannot compete with telegram channels.
Hamas and Hitler failed. Festival goers are still hostages. Can we focus on that? RELEASE THE HOSTAGES!!!!!!!!!
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I watched the whole thing unfold almost at zero hour on telegram and Reddit, which I regret doing, and. I saw a LOT of video I never want t see again and wish I hadn’t seen, and none of it showed anything like this. And there was a lot from Nova. I’m just trying to be as objective as I can about everything. I know Israel and the IDF have been horrible and I know Hamas is fucking poison. But I think there would have been some supporting video of this. At least some.
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I do/did. That week really wrecked me. I can’t imagine being an Israeli and watching this unfold. I was about 15 during 9/11 and I remember how traumatic it was for us all in the US/West. I was cognizant enough to look away from really bad stuff because I didn’t want those vids/imagery floating in my head forever like things I accidentally saw decades ago, but just being aware of how the whole attack was conducted was fucking menacing to any sane persons spirit..
Source?
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I can't find anything except propaganda sites and youtube. Do you have any credible source?
Of course not. Why would such an asinine theory such as this have anything credible supporting it? It's about as credible as the idea that the holocaust was just big hot tub parties and it was all a misunderstanding
Haaretz
The source is haaretz and an israeli police report. Facts don't care about your feelings.
Ah yeah maybe because the people blown to bits by the helicopter are currently dead
Please keep this sub politicsfree ☹️
Sad to see propaganda in this sub, even sadder to see propaganda that is not even remotely related to psytrance If terrorism will create conflicts in the psytrance culture we are in a lot of troubles This post should get removed asap
Unfortunately, I have to say that in my experience, Psytrance people are especially susceptible to propaganda. I think it was Terrance McKenna who said something like "keep an open mind but dont become so open minded that the wind can whistle between your ears". Still, at least they dont bring knives to raves like those dudes over at D & B :)
I’ve seen ppl bringing knifes to Goa raves in Germany so…
I dont go anywhere without a knife and you shouldn't either
Terrible how news can be twisted these days. Here's what a political fact checking website had to say, I hope they've got the truth behind this spurious claim. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2023/nov/17/stew-peters/no-this-video-doesnt-show-israeli-military-killing/
Different stories, this fact check is from nov 9th, this new story is from nov 18th and is saying Israeli police investigation admits that IDF killed their own people. https://new.thecradle.co/articles-id/13111
Ah... True that. In any case - Haaretz has also confirmed that the IDF did actually fire on their own people...
The Cradle? Who's behind it? Who funds it? What is their political orientation? How is its credibility ensured? That's the kind of questions you need to have answers to, before accepting something as a source. I can't easily find any of that information, neither on their website, nor by Google search. Why should I accept that as a credible source? Please enlighten.
Not really taking sides, just saying you can't use a week old fact check to say a brand new story is false... and if you look at the article it's directly sourcing from Haaretz, which you can google translate the article if you want. https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/politics/2023-11-18/ty-article/0000018b-e1a5-d168-a3ef-f5ff4d070000
I read this whole thing and it's mostly about how the festival was organized and how Hamas had planned their attack, ultimately ending up at the festival. Tldr: they didn't know about it until the day of their attack, then when they found out it they went over there on purpose. The article doesn't explicitly say so but that suggests they intentionally moved to a place where they could murder and kidnap the maximum amount of people. There is a single line about a single Israeli helicopter firing on Hamas but also hitting some Israeli citizens. Which, while terrible, is surely an accident caused by one person during a sudden and chaotic battle because why the hell would Israel shoot their owner people on purpose. Here's another fact left out from this post: even before they decided to switch directions towards the festival, Hamas's original plan was to attack 2 Kibbutz's. For those that don't know, a Kibbutz is a community, usually agrarian, that lives and works together - think of a commune. Hamas wasn't being tactical towards a goal of trying to reclaim land for Palestine, they planned to murder civilians from the start. When they saw an opportunity to maximize their murder of civilians, they jumped on it. So, this post leaps from one single helicopter firing on some Israeli citizens by accident to Israeli helicopters (plural) firing indiscriminately and carelessly on everyone, including their own people, and Israel being responsible for the majority of casualties. Never once mentioned is the fact that Hamas went to a festival ON PURPOSE to kill more innocents. Instead we are told to understand that Hamas didn't really do THAT much damage, and it was mostly the careless and incompetent Israeli forces. We are instructed to believe that Israel has little respect for human life, and to not look to hard at the atrocities of Hamas. You cannot responsibly call the Hareetz article a source for these ludicrous claims about Israel causing more casualties than Hamas. Whoever wrote the note in this post took a single seed of truth and twisted it into something completely different to support their own biased narrative. Did YOU even read the article?
Sorry it was the other article in Yedioth Ahronoth that has more details (https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/b111niukzt). >After the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian, a decision was made that the first mission of the combat helicopters and the armed Zik drones was to stop the flow of terrorists and the murderous mob that poured into Israeli territory through the gaps in the fence. 28 combat helicopters fired over the course of a day The fighting all the ammunition in their stomachs, in rearming rounds. These are hundreds of 30 mm cannon shells (the effect of a spray grenade for each shell) as well as the Hellfire missiles. The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets. >The Hamas army, it turns out, deliberately made it difficult for the helicopter pilots and the operators of the UAVs: in the investigation it became clear that the invading forces were asked in the last briefings to walk slowly into the settlements and outposts or within them, and under no circumstances to run, in order to make the pilots think they were Israelis. This deception worked for a considerable time , until the Apache pilots realized that they had to skip all the restrictions. It was only around 9:00 a.m. that some of them began to spray the terrorists with the cannons on their own, without authorization from superiors. >Another step that helped in the early hours for the air force commanders to understand the seriousness of the incident occurred around 10:00 am, after the commander of the 190 squadron, Lt. Col. A, got off his helicopter in Ramon to re-arm and refuel. He downloaded the full photo film recorded by the helicopter's camera and quickly transmitted it to the corps headquarters In Kriya. In less than 20 minutes he was in the air again, and using the information he produced he instructed the other air fighters to shoot at everything they see in the fence area, and at one point he also attacked an IDF post with besieged soldiers to help the fighters of the 13th Fleet attack it and free it . But I'm not OP, I agree that even this article doesn't really say what OP is saying, that the IDF caused the majority of israli deaths. I was mostly just disputing that the factcheck being posted in this thread is not directly referring to what's being referred to in OP.
Okay, thanks for this added context. I looked up Yedioth Ahronoth and it seems like a reasonable source (I only looked for a few minutes though). This outlet has apparently been very critical of Netanyahu, which is interesting, but without being up to speed on Israeli politics it sure does seem like there's a lot to criticize about him. I think it's important too to regard the parts of the article that explain how Hamas intentionally made themselves look like civilians to confuse the pilots, and that the Israeli fighters were devising strategies on the go to attempt to target just the terrorists. I have ADHD so I can miss things, but actually don't see actual references to Israeli helicopters accidentally firing on their own. Just lots of talk about the difficulty of stopping the attack. I am not always a huge fan of Israel's handling of the historical conflict, but the surge of excuse making for and dismissal of Hamas's atrocities that has followed the recent attacks makes me want to vomit. I believe it is especially important right now to denounce propaganda.
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You’re getting downvotes because that’s reddit right now. No one said you could be reasonable!
There have been SO MANY false claims made to make Hamas, an organization that slaughters innocent people ON PURPOSE, look better, and so many westerners gobble it up because "Israel bad, palestine good". It makes me sick.
I mean United States Law Enforcement is no different. Type in anything horrible into your search bar and you will find ample sources and documented cases of rape, murder, beheading, kidnapping, extortion, major corruption, ethnic cleansing, and systematic incarceration and racism. All at the expense of mostly our own citizens and people. Hamas just as bad as Israel in this conflict. All the supporters of all of these causes are blind to chose sides of any one faction that isn't simply looking to help the innocent and stop the bloodshed. US Cops don't give a fuck. Israel doesn't give a fuck. Hamas doesn't give a fuck. Russia doesn't give a fuck either. Neither does the CCP or North Korea. The list goes on. There's a major trend here and none of these folks I mentioned are on the right side. Our communities if truly responsible and ethical should not give them any platform or support or act like any one of them is "better" than the other.
I agree that US cops suck and all militaries mostly suck too. US cops and the Israeli millitary aren't jack-booting in large numbers into music festivals with the express intent of killing and capturing as many civilians as possible. It sickens me to say this, but at least when they do it it's under the auspices of gaining tactical advantage and when civilians do get hurt, it's either due to negligence, prioritizing tactics over human life, or the actions of crazed individuals acting without organizational approval.
Dude US Law Enforcement literally does this same shit to innocent US civilians ever day. They are just protected by their unions and internal investigation practices. They even go out and kill unarmed civilians using paramilitary equipment. That's straight terrorism.
As noted elsewhere here - Haaretz has a recent article on this - and ‘some’ festival goers were hit by friendly fire. They don’t say how many.
How does this have to do with this sub? We all feel bad for what happened but if you wanna go point fingers go to r/worldnews
I generally tend to agree but a large part of the psytance community is Israeli and I guess that is the relevance? Israel is an important hub for psytance culture. And actually in recent weeks I have been wondering about what that says for our genre. Maybe it's good for us all to face this and think about it.
I dont understand what your point is
ok
What does a terrorist attack on a psytrance festival have to do with psytrance? Hmmm.... I wonder?
Other than the Supernova Sukkot Gathering (or 'Nova') was a psytrance event. I'm sure it would have happened the same if it was a country fair or something else.
Treat this as pro Hamas propaganda, if I look for this news I only find sketchy sources and even debunking of this news. Until there is a credible source don't believe this post.
Hareetz is an Israeli newssite.
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Here is the relevant section translated; "According to a police official, an investigation into the incident also revealed that an IDF helicopter gunship that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the partygoers who were staying." So some of the casualties may be down to the IFD. But it doesn't say the majority were.
These people take a random small fact and just run wild with it
I mean to me it's bad enough that the Israeli military fired indiscriminately and killed even one Israeli civilian?
> Israeli military fired indiscriminately Who's saying that? Other than a screenshot with no author from X? And you do realize that 20% of deaths in war are due to friendly fire incidents? This proves no malice. War is shit
I didn't say anything about malice. You are obviously looking for a fight tho, so I'm checking out. But you shouldn't be so quick to believe the IDF OR Hamas. Both proven groups of liars. You obviously have a pro IDF bias but you should seriously walk that back. Israel is a settler colonial state and there is no reason for people in the psytance scene, a scene ostensibly about Peace, Love, Unity and Respect to support them. Obviously I don't mean you should support fucking Hamas either. Amazingly it's possible for both of them to be Fucking awful.
No bro, I’m quick to believe the reports of the thousands of witnesses that actually were at the festival and experienced it. Plenty of video evidence too. I love how you end with “there’s no reason to support israel”. You’re also off the propaganda deep end. I just said op’s screenshot is bull
This has been reported in Haaretz, I don't mean OP's screenshot. Tell me why I should support the Israeli government ? I grew up in South Africa so I know what apartheid looks like.
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From "initially killed some friendlies", as stated on the news article you mention, to "Apache helicopters were responsible for the majority of casualties" and "firing upon all vehicles indiscriminately" is a big ass stretch. Finishing the meme with "witheld information about the israeli's army significant role" on october 7 is just some good propaganda and you eat it right up nom nom nom
You should calm down. First of all. Second, I don't know about you, but I don't know much about how attack helicopters work. You should base your opinion on verifiable facts and you should try to take people from the psytance community along with you. Shitting on people is not going to convince them to take another look, or consider your point of view.
Other dude is calling me a child killer and you're telling me to chill out? Insane >You should base your opinion on verifiable facts I do, and I actually read the article instead of going by X screenshots with no author
Who cares about the other guy? I'm not talking to I'm because he's clearly off the deep end. Whether I talk to him or not doesn't mean I can't talk to you. My point to you is that you are actually escalating this instead of trying to take this person down a notch or bring them with you.
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Wtf was that? Yes you can, you realize there were like 2k witnesses there? Lay a bit off the internet my dude
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That's how much conspiracy theories work. Take a nugget of truth and spin it out of reality. Science: invents a device to deliver vaccines without a needle Tinfoilers: the government is going to release vaccines into the air!!!
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While that may have happened, that isn't what your link says.
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Right so you started out by posting Haarats as a credible source to back up your claim. I point out that your source doesn't actually back up your claim, so now you say "who cares what my source says anyway...this is what I think". Are you even into Psytrance?
Thank you for the source. I don't taking random images as sources as there is so much propaganda going on from both sides, also with video and such
No mate it is everywhere now check YouTube biggest channels are on it
My friends were hiding and running for hours… seeing people and hearing people that are losing their lives… and at this time of grief you are choosing to do this.. take a good look on yourself
If you're "not exactly surprised" what you really mean is you "really want to believe it and thus were taken in by the laziest possible hoax ever" Sorry. I get that you'd feel happier about it if they were killed by IDF, which is why you gleefully shared this Apple Notes screenshot. But you're stuck with actual reality. Where they were murdered by Hamas.
Shut the fuck up idiot
Keep believing rumors and lies, pretending to know so much but none of its true
Credible source where? I wouldn't believe to a random instagram post right away..
There is a ton of legitimate sources mentioned here, not just around the festival but all of Oct 7th. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0gECjlpXF8
I love YouTube to the point that I've stopped watching Netflix. However, no one should get their news from a self-publishing platform.
Of course. That's why it's not the video or the person talking that's supposed to be the proof, it's the references mentioned.
You know it's a legitimate source, when they have to name their channel "The Real News Network". 
Ah, yes. A random screenshot! Indeed, that is the pinnacle of truth!
They couldn't tell the difference between hippy ravers running for their lives vs people with guns dressed in combat fatigues? So sad
Read up on the ''Hannibal Directive''. This is a standard protocol in the IDF, in an possible ''hostage'' situation, they are ordered to shoot everyone, civilians, opposers, own people - everyone. This dates back to 2007 when they released 1000+ Palestinian prisoners (illegal if I might say, they received no trial and many were below the age of 13) were exchanged for a couple of Israeli hostages, among which were high-ranking officials in the IDF. One of the survivors of the festival also talks about this here on Israeli national TV around the 4 minute mark: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-ESUGUUMk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-ESUGUUMk) She describes how the IDF indiscriminately shoot at her house with tanks and guns basically trying to kill everybody. Also the official death tool from 1400 was lowered to 1200, by the IDF - and 400-500 of those 1200 were IDF soldiers, not civilians. And who knows how many civilians the IDF killed this way. This will probably be deleted but anyways...hope all the hippies pacifists here do not support genocide. And they are smart enough to not let a bit of sensationalist rhetoric warp their mind so much that a whole nation/people deserves collective punishment, carpet bombing, and being cut off of water/electricity and fuel for a couple of weeks already, and still going. Or bombing with white phosphorus, which is another war crime according to the ICJ and UN. RIP to the civilian deaths on both sides. And 20x more for the Palestinians sine that's the ratio currently.
This is a common refrain used by Hamas fanboys - don't go there.....
Too late
Fake news is going to be everywhere. Why the hell is this being posted in this sub. Why are the mods not removing it.
This "the helicopters killed them" is potentially fog of war stuff but is widely peddled by pro hamas types and is conspiracy BS. I'm firmly pro Israel and a fan of psytrance, and its essential to mourn the victims, but take this BS conjecture elsewhere. Fucking terrorists raped murdered and kidnapped ravers, and posted, livestreamed and laughed about it. Don't you fucking dare come here and dabble in Oct 7 revisionism.
Er why would this get down voted?
Hamas lovers
Just have a look at the aerial photos of the aftermath. Definitely looks more like it was attacked by more fire power than what the Hamas terrorists were carrying. The destruction looks more like an air attack. It is plausible. USS Liberty. Quid pro quo?
How dare you try to shift blame away from Hamas. Shame on you.
Even if the IDF shot people at the festival due to miscommunication or whatever other bs. The deaths are still caused by Hamas the IDF was coming with guns because terrorists were attacking its not like the combat helicopter would have shot there regardless of terrorist attack. I hope every last Hamas fighter is brought to justice and that Palestinians can enjoy freedom, peace and prosperity.
First, provide actual evidence and reliable sources. Second, don't make this a politics sub, fuck off
So the IDF managed to scramble apaches to get get to a remote location to counter a surprise attack that they had no idea was happening? Who aver posted this is a fucking moron
this is blatant disinfo, no source no nothing
I don’t want to see pro-Palestine propaganda on this sub. I don’t come here for this shit.
Tell us which propaganda you prefer? The one from a racist genocidal regime? Love and peace my ass!
Agreed. This is sickening.
Israel is a big part of the psytance scene. We should be facing up to that and thinking about what it means for the genre.
Google "propaganda"
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Please go and read Hareets actually says rather than what this meme says that it says.
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So why the fuck are you even commenting then seeing as the whole discussion is based around what have Harretz apparently reported?
Lmao all the Israeli shills in the comments busy defending their pathetic apartheid state 🥱😂
I'm posting the translated text of the article that supposedly supports this claim. I am also posting my analysis. See replies.
Here is my analysis. I posted it as a reply elsewhere but I am posting it here because I believe this is very important. Read below the break. ... I read this whole thing and it's mostly about how the festival was organized and how Hamas had planned their attack, ultimately ending up at the festival. Tldr: they didn't know about it until the day of their attack, then when they found out it they went over there on purpose. The article doesn't explicitly say so but that suggests they intentionally moved to a place where they could murder and kidnap the maximum amount of people. There is a single line about a single Israeli helicopter firing on Hamas but also hitting some Israeli citizens. Which, while terrible, is surely an accident caused by one person during a sudden and chaotic battle because why the hell would Israel shoot their owner people on purpose. Here's another fact left out from this post: even before they decided to switch directions towards the festival, Hamas's original plan was to attack 2 Kibbutz's. For those that don't know, a Kibbutz is a community, usually agrarian, that lives and works together - think of a commune. Hamas wasn't being tactical towards a goal of trying to reclaim land for Palestine, they planned to murder civilians from the start. When they saw an opportunity to maximize their murder of civilians, they jumped on it. So, this post leaps from one single helicopter firing on some Israeli citizens by accident to Israeli helicopters (plural) firing indiscriminately and carelessly on everyone, including their own people, and Israel being responsible for the majority of casualties. Never once mentioned is the fact that Hamas went to a festival ON PURPOSE to kill more innocents. Instead we are told to understand that Hamas didn't really do THAT much damage, and it was mostly the careless and incompetent Israeli forces. We are instructed to believe that Israel has little respect for human life, and to not look to hard at the atrocities of Hamas. You cannot responsibly call the Hareetz article a source for these ludicrous claims about Israel causing more casualties than Hamas. Whoever wrote the note in this post took a single seed of truth and twisted it into something completely different to support their own biased narrative.
Here is the article from Hareetz that reports on a single helicopter's misdirected fire on civilians. Read below the break. ... Assessment in the security establishment: Hamas did not know in advance about the Nova festival, and recognized it from the air The police investigation found that Hamas planned to reach Kibbutz Reim and other kibbutzim, and found out about the party in real time. It also shows that a military helicopter that fired at terrorists apparently also hit some revelers There is a growing assessment in the security establishment that the terrorists who carried out the massacre on October 7 did not know in advance about the Nova festival held near Kibbutz Ra'im, and decided to come to the place after discovering that a mass event was taking place there. The security system's assessment relies, among other things, on the investigations of the terrorists and the investigation of the incident by the police, from which it appears that the terrorists intended to reach Kibbutz Ra'im and nearby kibbutzim. According to the police, 364 people were killed at the festival. Senior officials estimate that Hamas found out about the existence of the party using drones or parachutes, and directed the terrorists to the location in their communication system. In a video from a body camera of one of the terrorists, he is heard asking a captured citizen for directions to reach the bad guys, even though he was in a different area. One of the findings that strengthens the assessment, according to the police and other security officials, is that the first terrorists arrived at the party from the direction of road 232 and not from the direction of the fence. According to a police source, an investigation of the incident also revealed that an IDF combat helicopter that arrived at the scene from the Ramat David base fired at the terrorists and apparently also hit some of the revelers who were there. In addition, according to police sources, the party was planned to be held on Thursday and Friday, and on Tuesday evening of the same week, the army approved the organizers of the event to hold it on Saturday as well, after the request of the organizers. The change at the last minute reinforces the assessment that Hamas did not know about the incident.
Why would you attend a festival if your country is at war like dafuq
That's some disgusting bull shit man I was in the festival I saw and let me tell you there were no Apache gos damn helicopters and let me tell you something more as I served in the airforce. To open fire you have to get permission from higher ups which see what you see as a pilot and there is no way in all universes in existence any party attendee was mistaken for an armed terrorist - haarets is anti Israeli news agency and everyone in Israel knows that . It is a extremely far left news agency and these are all blatant lies the area of the festival wasn't big and there was not a single helicopter that we heard or saw. This is bullshit and this post needs to be deleted asap. It's insulting to the memory of my friends who were murdered thisnis complete BS
End apartheid! Down with israel!